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-------- REPLY, End of original message --------


--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
***NEW-NEW-NEW-WEBSITE***
see my *under construction site at:
http://www.shadow.net/~tasha
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 01:35:51 -0500
From: TashaStar
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id: <199604280631.CAA17400@anshar.shadow.net

-- [ From: TashaStar * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
Why is some slut with a whip more worthy of adoration than your
ever- lovin' wife?

Laura, I have read your posts on other NG's and was suprised at this
statement from you. I am not a slut.

I never said you were. I never said Pros were. A slut is a slut, though
.
There *are* sluts with whips in existance, y'know.

point taken about it not being personal or about Professionals. :-)
But....I still have a teeny problem with a common concept that is being
relayed.

firstly, an example:
(A fictional character), Joe Sloven has a weight problem.
Joe is 160 lbs overweight. He has signs of diabetes.
Godiva Choclate
Joe's problem is compulsive overeating of choclate.
He purchases and eats a LOT of Godiva choclate.
Who's fault is Joe's weight problem ??
Who should be blamed ??
Is Godiva a bad company because they continue to advertise and sell
something that Joe abuses ??
What happens if Joe's weight problem begins to affect his health
significantly??

The rational person will 99% of the time say, what a stupid question And then say of course it is Joe's fault.

Well, Joe is a consumer of something that affects a relationship.
His relationship with his health.

So, ie, a man goes outside his marriage and purchases or just recives
something that is not good for his relationship.
Who's fault is it ??

Godiva choclate is not the correct answer.


I have expressed my feelings on this subject on other threads, but here
we go
again: I feel that a marriage is an agreement between a wife and husband
.
Whatever they agree to is fine with me. If that means cultivating
outside
relationships, c0ol.

OK< agreed. I am just in disagreement about calling the woman he goes
outside
with, a slut. I agree with comming clean with the wife. I think that a
truly submissive man, or one who believes in Fem Supremecy will respect
*all* women enough, including the wife, to be honest. This would prove his
feelings in Fem-suprem are sincere.

I bet I am just repeating what you said, with a twist on who is to blame.
I bet we are in more agreement then most think. :-)

Tasha
--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
***NEW-NEW-NEW-WEBSITE***
see my *under construction site at:
http://www.shadow.net/~tasha
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #54
***********************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 56

Today's Topics:
Re: Fwd: post message
Re: Do the right thing
Re: Do the right thing
Re: Do the right thing
Re: No Sex Professionals
Have a question...
Fwd: Re: Fwd: post message
Re: Do the right thing
Re: Do the right thing
Domination Principles
Re: Do the right thing
Re: Have a question...
Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: post message
Re: No sex...NOT! ;)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 12:52:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: post message
Message-Id: <199604281952.MAA07461@iceland.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

weaker women can truly dominate bigger, stronger men is by either:

1) Force of numbers -- two or more average women overpowering one
average man
2) Actual hypnosis
3) Mind-altering drugs
4) Where the female is actually bigger and stronger, which is very rare

In most situations, then, true "Female Supremacy" is impossible because it
relies
purely on the WISHES and DESIRES of the parties; not on necessity. For such a
scenario to REALLY work requires the normal physical power equation to be
reversed!

---------------------------
While I certainly agree that if Women were larger than men it would be a lot
easier for them to assert their will, I suspect there are other mechanisms
that could work pretty effectively too. Some examples follow:

(1) Economic coersion: She controls the purse, and he knows that his
economic well being depends on Her good will.

Consider: Your Lady boss tells you in no uncertain terms what She expects
and that your (good) job is on the line. She weighs 101 lbs, you weigh 195.
What do you do?

(2) Political coersion: She calls upon the legally constituted enforcement
agency to enforce Her will.

Consider: The ability of the members of the ruling class to impose their
will on others regardless of size is legend.

(3) Conditioning: In accordance with well established principles of
conditioning he has learned to respond to Her in a compliant manner.

Consider the analogous situation of the lion trainer in a case with six or
seven lions. He would not even represent a minor challenge to them
physically, but because of their training he is able to push them around.
The very same principles can be applied to men.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 16:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-Id: <199604282317.QAA00607@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3269

Lonely2001@aol.com wrote:

I realize my weekness in this regard. That is, a desire to be dominated. I am
submissive to all women in general (I am regarded as "chivalrous" and a "nice
guy"). But I know that if I was in a vanilla relationship I would be
dissatisfied after a while. I make sure to tell someone I am dating before we
get too serious. I am sad to say, most, so far, think it is sick, depraved,
perverted, etc. I have been puzzled by this. They don't like the idea of a
man to do their bidding? Lost a lot of girlfriends... But I believe honesty
is important.

Because this is a Femsupremacy forum, and not a femdom forum, I'm
going to try to address this from a Femsuprem perspective.

A lot of women _don't_ like the idea of having a man to do their
bidding. Some can't get past the fact that their culture tells them
it should be the other way around. Some are simply anal retentive and
feel that no one can clean/cook/whatever as well as they can, and so
don't want someone else trying to do it for them. Some are simply not
naturally dominant, and not inclined to have to deal with being in
charge of someone else. Etc.

What's my point? There are many kinds of women out there. Not all of
them are going to want to be in charge of a relationship. Among
those, there are some who even if they could overcome the cultural
"men should be on top" brainwashing STILL wouldn't want to be in
charge. It's their choice, and their right to make that choice.

It's good to be honest. It's good that you are sure to tell them
fairly up front. It saves you both some pain in the end. It's one
thing to get into a vanilla relationship thinking it's all you want
and need, and finding out differently later (a horrifying thing,
though :/). Sabotaging yourself in the beginning by getting into a
serious vanilla relationship with someone who is not accepting of your
non-vanilla needs _and_ not willing to allow you an outside
owner/partner seems rather self-defeating to me.

How to make friends who are into Femsupremacy (I discuss making
friends instead of finding mates because the best way to find a mate
is to not desperately seek one, but instead to make friends with
similar interests)? Participate in forums, both online and real
life, where Femsupremacists share their views. You won't find a
bounty of places that are only Femsupremacists. You can also try
overlapping forums, such as Feminist, Female Domination, etc., where
Femsupremacists may spend their time. Getting a little more generic,
there are women's groups that accept aid from men, and there are
general BDSM groups.

Also, if you show respect to women in everything you do, you may find
Femsupremacists in places you didn't expect, like a cycling club or a
chess club.

The key is patience and attentiveness. Be attentive to your own
actions. If you consistantly show that you are respectful of women, a
woman who desires that quality may perhaps show an interest in you.

Dee-Ann





Yes, I have tried this. After failing with the regular romance groups, I have
tried the BDSM ad groups. That has been a dissapointment also. I am very
reluctant to attend my local support group. I am very discouraged.

The BDSM ad groups are only as helpful as those who read them, and the
kind of ad you posted. The majority of personal ads I've seen on the
various BDSM groups are ones I'd never answer, because they give
virtually no information about who the person is, what they expect,
and what a respondant can expect from them. I'm not making any
judgement calls on what kind of ad you may have posted, as I didn't
see it. Also, note that a lot of folks either can't or don't read the
BDSM ad groups.

There's IRC also as a way of making friends. The various IRC networks
all have a #femdom channel. For more on IRC and #femdom check out
http://www.renaissoft.com/~dee/femdom/ Please don't post here asking
to get onto IRC. The web page listed includes links to various help
resources. If you're going to try this route, READ the advice
documents on the page. Be courteous on the channel, join in
conversations, and don't sit there asking if anyone will play with
you. The #femdom channel is much more of a discussion channel than a
play channel, and isn't a dating service. However, making friends and
talking to folks may get a woman interested in you. There are
Femsuprem women who hang out there as well. Don't ask me who they
are, that's for you to find out through talking to people. I'm not
aiming all of this at you, Lonely2001...this is for everyone who might
try out the channel. One of my standard lectures. :)

As far as local groups go, you'll never know unless you try. And
remember, as with any forum whether real life or on the net, if you go
once and feel everyone's a jerk you should still go again. It may not
have been the usual crowd, or maybe everyone was having a horrible
day.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 17:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-Id: <199604290028.RAA14446@netcom20.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2856

Dee counseled:

How to make friends who are into Femsupremacy (I discuss making
friends instead of finding mates because the best way to find a mate
is to not desperately seek one, but instead to make friends with
similar interests)? Participate in forums, both online and real
life, where Femsupremacists share their views. You won't find a
bounty of places that are only Femsupremacists. You can also try
overlapping forums, such as Feminist, Female Domination, etc., where
Femsupremacists may spend their time. Getting a little more generic,
there are women's groups that accept aid from men, and there are
general BDSM groups.

In Usenet, spend some time reading and contributing to
newsgroups like alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna, alt.magick.tantra,
alt.religion.wicca, alt.pagan, etc but _not_ with a view to
'picking up' anyone. Do it to learn, and to ask intelligent
questions. Try learning more in groups with soc.* prefixes
where serious (and often moderated) discussion takes place.
Be there, be positive and polite, contribute, and enjoy with no
ulterior expectations. Think well beyond your own needs and
enjoy the give and take of life where you find it.
Finding 'Mts. Right' is almost always a surprise, not the result
of a calculated stalk, or so I've been advised. :P

Also, if you show respect to women in everything you do, you may find
Femsupremacists in places you didn't expect, like a cycling club or a
chess club.

Affiliating with almost any 'progressive' organziation in the same
spirit as above is both worthwhile and affords you some good
company: civil rights and environmental groups, volunteer groups,
AIDS advocacy, any groups promoting self-sufficiency (except
militias ;[) or alternative lifestyles (this is anything from AA
to the SCA), religious groups / congregagtions with a reputation
for liberal or radical theology (UU, Wiccans, the SMC [ask Laura]
to name a few [but not my own]), abortion-rights and child care
advocacy, the local BDSM/TG/leather support groups, literacy and
immigration volunteers, anything in fact which might attract
people of character.

The key is patience and attentiveness. Be attentive to your own
actions. If you consistantly show that you are respectful of women, a
woman who desires that quality may perhaps show an interest in you.

Her interests, her priorities, her move, remember.
As I learned in *A: 'Surrender to win.'
And 'Let go, let G

a. od.'
b. oddess.'
c. aia.'
d. anesh.'

Try it. What's to lose? :)
c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 21:16:55 -0400
From: Lonely2001@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: No Sex Professionals
Message-ID: <960428211654_523884356@emout08.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-28 12:41:53 EDT, you write:

My confidence in my ability to make the kind of relationship I need has
received a devastating blow.

I think the Goddess sent me this opportunity and I blew it. I wonder if she
will give me another chance?



I had a simliar feeling about a possible relationship with a Domme. I fear I
blew it too.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 21:17:00 -0400
From: Lonely2001@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Have a question...
Message-ID: <960428211658_523884404@emout10.mail.aol.com

I need to know what people think about this...

I believe in female supremacy. I think we might be better off in the long
run.

But... I don't know how to phrase this... Does that mean I should let myself
be used by women and I have no say in the matter? I don't want to get into a
long weepy story here... But it hurts a lot and I don't know if I should just
accept it. I realize this might be a part of serious female supremacy.

I'd like to know what others think.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:43:00 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Antonio)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: post message
Message-Id: <199604290143.SAA25584@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

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weaker women can truly dominate bigger, stronger men is by either:

1) Force of numbers -- two or more average women overpowering one
average man
2) Actual hypnosis
3) Mind-altering drugs
4) Where the female is actually bigger and stronger, which is very rare

In most situations, then, true "Female Supremacy" is impossible because it
relies
purely on the WISHES and DESIRES of the parties; not on necessity. For such a
scenario to REALLY work requires the normal physical power equation to be
reversed!

---------------------------
While I certainly agree that if Women were larger than men it would be a lot
easier for them to assert their will, I suspect there are other mechanisms
that could work pretty effectively too. Some examples follow:

(1) Economic coersion: She controls the purse, and he knows that his
economic well being depends on Her good will.

Consider: Your Lady boss tells you in no uncertain terms what She expects
and that your (good) job is on the line. She weighs 101 lbs, you weigh 195.
What do you do?

(2) Political coersion: She calls upon the legally constituted enforcement
agency to enforce Her will.

Consider: The ability of the members of the ruling class to impose their
will on others regardless of size is legend.

(3) Conditioning: In accordance with well established principles of
conditioning he has learned to respond to Her in a compliant manner.

Consider the analogous situation of the lion trainer in a case with six or
seven lions. He would not even represent a minor challenge to them
physically, but because of their training he is able to push them around.
The very same principles can be applied to men.

the subject "help".




---- End Forwarded Message


Mr. zbobz makes some VERY good points. However, I would rebut some of what you
said, Bob (may I call you that?) by pointing out that size and physical
strength are the only IMMUTABLE characteristics people have (along with
intelligence -- these are inherent characteristics of the person). Oh yes,
it is true that a person may grow weak with old age; and a person's intellect
may similarly dim with age (look at Bob Dole!)

However, unlike money and political power (force of arms, etc.) these qualities
are basically inseperable from the person. That is, if a big, strong person
is dropped on a desert island with a smaller, weaker person, guess who will
have first dibs on food, etc.? Unless the smaller, weaker person is gifted
with a brilliant, resourceful mind, the bigger person will dominate. (The pair
might even come to the conclusion that the one who is clearly stronger or more
intelligent SHOULD give the orders.)

Mao said "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." When you speak of
using the duly constituted organs of law enforcement for coercion (as you
did in point 2 above), the underlying implication was that the woman (or whomever)
had more clout over these institutions, and thus was able to leverage them to
coerce the male to do her bidding. Well, where praytell did she acquire that
clout FROM? Back in the day, women had no power whatsoever in the legal
system. They also lacked the vote, etc., etc. Needless to say they had no
power in organized religion (which is capable of a form of coercion); also,
no power in academia (women weren't even allowed to get a higher education).
Etc., etc. Well, my question is why was all this true? Maybe it all ultimately
led back to the fact that women, in very primitive societies, had very little
power simply because they were "the weaker sex." From that simple biological
fact flowed a myriad of oppressive rules and regulations, obstructions and
roadblocks, which kept women in "their place" for literally thousands of years!

So, if you are a reductionist (as I am), you will realize that political power
grows out of the barrel of a gun; guns are coercive instruments which are built
by the ruling class (in our society, males) to enforce their rules and wishes;
males are in the position to build guns because their biology (i.e., TESTOSTERONE)
impels them to do it; their hormonal biology also happens to go hand in hand
with their superior physical size, strength, etc. which makes it easy to coerce
females, either by actual force, express threats, or simply the implication that
force will be used. Females simply do not build guns, or missiles; they do not
start wars (except for Margaret Thatcher and she was a staunch conservative --
she bought into the 'male' philosophy of power lock, stock, and barrel, unlike
the vast majority of females.)

Thus, MALE supremacy is the norm. Female supremacy, given the biological
facts, can only be play-acting (although it may be a lot of fun!!!)

Antonio



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 23:01:30 -0400
From: Lonely2001@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-ID: <960428230129_102441650@emout12.mail.aol.com

Thanks again for the advice, Dee-Ann. I'll keep it in mind.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 23:01:25 -0400
From: Lonely2001@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-ID: <960428230124_102441583@emout17.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-28 19:31:44 EDT, you write:

Also, if you show respect to women in everything you do, you may find
Femsupremacists in places you didn't expect, like a cycling club or a
chess club.

The key is patience and attentiveness. Be attentive to your own
actions. If you consistantly show that you are respectful of women, a
woman who desires that quality may perhaps show an interest in you.

Dee-Ann



Thanks for the advice, Dee-Ann.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 20:24:11 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Domination Principles
Message-Id: <199604290324.UAA25180@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

Consider the analogous situation of the lion trainer in a case with
six or seven lions. He would not even represent a minor challenge to
them physically, but because of their training he is able to push them
around. The very same principles can be applied to men.

This is certainly true, and I have applied this in my life. Women can
train men *if they know how* to be compliant, bu the trick is getting
women organized and prepared to rule.

--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 20:33:28 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-Id: <199604290333.UAA29539@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

Dee-ann wrote:

It's good to be honest. It's good that you are sure to tell them
fairly up front. It saves you both some pain in the end.

The key is patience and attentiveness. Be attentive to your own
actions. If you consistantly show that you are respectful of women, a
woman who desires that quality may perhaps show an interest in you.

Exactly. I endorse everything Dee-Ann says here.

Femsupremacy: the femdom world has some overlapping population, as does
the feminist, but femsupremacy is distinctive. In femdom, the emphasis
can still be on the male, but in femsupremacy the woman is at the
center.
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 20:39:18 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Have a question...
Message-Id: <199604290339.UAA02304@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

Lonely wrote:

I believe in female supremacy. But... Does that mean I should let
myself be used by women and I have no say in the matter?

NO! I am passionate about this. In a femsupremacy world, men would not
be used and exploited, but cherished. You *should* have a say! It's
just that women need men to respect them.

I hate to see the way sub guys are misused by some women. Still, you
should take care of yourself, and be selective about who you surrender
to.
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 23:53:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: post message
Message-Id: <199604290353.XAA28127@norway.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Antonio,
By the reasoning you espouse lions and tigers would be the supreme
rulers of the earth since physically they could in the final analysis always
prevail over puny Women and men. Organized action and leverage via the
various political and economic mechanisms of society generally determine the
balance of power in societies. If we're not talking about a society, but
random unorganized acts by individuals then I'm perfectly willing to concede
that the average man can bash the average Woman, but frankly I don't
particularly care since I don't expect to ever live in that world (I could
of course be wrong about that). In our world (most of the time, anyway) we
live according to rules set via the leverage of individuals and groups who
are powerful independently of their physical size or strength. (In fact I
hazard to say those who survive via their physical strength generally find
themselves at the bottom of the power pyramid). It is the nature of humans
to create mechanisms that give them power not naturally in their possession;
i.e., automobiles, airplanes, bombs ... . Some of these mechanisms are
social in nature and serve to give particular individuals and groups power
over others. (We probably have no real disagreement up to this point).
What mechanisms do Women create to give them this power, and what
resources of their own do they use to build it? At this point all is
speculation and supposition, but my personal belief is that access to birth
control is the watershed event; that is what is new and different and
potentially changes the balance of power. Women have actually done pretty
well, considering, upto now inspite of their dependence on males after child
birth. With the ability to make their own decisions about child birth, the
balance can only swing in their direction. Then who knows what they can do?
I don't, neither does anyone else. My impression is that the pendulum is
already swinging and the furor over right to life has far more to do with
control that it does any concern with life itself. (I hope this last
comment doesn't bring a plague of fundamentists out of the wood work but the
saying of it seems inevitable).
Whether Women will in fact become powerful is an empirical question not
an a priori one, but I wouldn't bet against them myself. And personally I'm
on their side.


zbobz

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 23:13:40 -0500
From: TashaStar
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Message-Id: <199604290409.AAA04891@anshar.shadow.net

-- [ From: TashaStar * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------

Date: Sunday, 28-Apr-96 04:06 AM

From: Laura Goodwin \ Internet: (lalaura@ix.netcom.com)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com \ Internet: (femsupremacy@renaissoft.
com)

Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)

None of the ones I have known personally had sex (as men
understand it) with any male client. Sex was more likely
something done with a 'steady' partner (of either gender).

OK, but how do you define "sex"?

*I* define "sex" as sexual intercourse. (penetration)
*I* define a sexual act as anything that involves intimate/genital contact
and/or exchange of body fluids.

There are in fact huge numbers of Pro Doms who make it their business to
sexually gratify their customers in sessions, usually by masturbating the
guy
while he's in bondage, using vibrators, dildos, etc. or by
ordering/allowing
him to masturbate himself while kneeling or grovelling, and wearing his
fetish
stuff. Isn't this "sex"?

True. No doubt. Huge numbers of them.
But self masturbation while kneeling or groveling is not having sex with the

Mistress. Is it "sex" if a guy masturbates by himself in the bathroom
while reading magazines ?? Nope. Not in *my* book.

Tasha


--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
***NEW-NEW-NEW-WEBSITE***
see my *under construction site at:
http://www.shadow.net/~tasha
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:
Re: Fwd: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Re: Fwd: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Re: Do the right thing
Re: Fwd: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
More about orgasms
RE: No Sex Professionals
Some Personal Observations

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 01:35:26 -0500
From: TashaStar
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Message-Id: <199604280631.CAA17374@anshar.shadow.net

-- [ From: TashaStar * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
Tasha wrote:

Am I the only professional on the list?

No. Or not likely, if I remember some past postings.

Well I hope some of them are still around, it is a good forum.

This is not about sex for me.
This is about power and the chance to influence someones life.
I am driven by the power rush.

This is more in line with my experience --- friendship
with professional Dominas.
The real quest seems to have been about power.

I truly believe that the drive is different for females then males.
I said before, Male Doms are usually driven by sex urge and females driven
by power.
It is appearant in corporate structure sometimes as well.
Successful men enjoy the toys now available to them through success,that
they
think makes them sexier. (cars, boats, gun collections, macho stuff like
that)
Where women are usually driven to success by a power incentive which is
usually the power of being independant. If you sit with successful women,
they will often tell you they are happy to have achieved, for the most part
because they now don't *need* a man to take care of them.

Whoever started women thinking that they ever needed a man to *take care of
them*
did us an injustice and prevented and thawarted femminism from the inside of
women.
What I mean is that since most women actually strive for success to become
independant from men, they are fighting an internal belief that dependance
is the *normal* and average way to be.

That, and the search for _identity_, for a place in which
She can say, 'I am!' with great clarity and confidence.
(Another way of stating the power issue, or so it seems to me.)

I always knew *I am*. I knew from very young. Developing it so that I
wasn't an
obnoxious egoist was a big task. I love being female. I love being able to
stir a man to
an uncomfortable state with a mild gesture. I love erotisism. Yet, I am
not all that interested in sexual encounters.

If you asked my husband how often we have sex, he would tell you "not nearly
enough for his likes"
enough play, and he will answer "yes."

hhhmmm, sounds like a condradiction. But it isn't.
He has adjusted to my sexual drive and has free standing permission to
masturbate
whenever he has the urge or desire. His sex drive is much higher then mine
(though I am 34 and he is 46)

None of the ones I have known personally had sex (as men
understand it) with any male client. Sex was more likely
something done with a 'steady' partner (of either gender).

Right. Same here.

That said, isn't it possible, likely even, that Dominas,
like the rest of us, fall into a broad array of motives and
tempraments?

Yes !! oh-my-gosh
I didn't discount that there are plenty of Professionals that will have sex
or do many sexual acts with the clients. I only didn't like being lumped
as a *group* of "leather teddy wearing sluts" I don't even think Laura
meant to do this but it sounded that way in the post. Laura has read posts
by me for probably at least a year or two and she must know I am not like
that.

Besides, my opnion has never been that because a man goes outside his
marriage, that the *woman* he spends time with or cheats with, is a slut. I
feel the man may be doing wrong, and the woman is wrong as well by allowing
it, but give me a break on the blaming women for the act. If you are
witness to a murder, and did nothing to prevent it, you are not a murderer.
It isn't a good thing that you didn't try to stop it, and maybe you would be
a hero if you did, but how many real heros do you know ?

After having read a lot about Laura's experience and
a fair amount about Tasha's (plus all the posts today), it
seems that they are both reporting from the wide spectrum of
Real Life, which is where the Domina really lives in the checkout
line with the rest of us. I don't see so much disagreement here
here as a wideness of perspective, jarring perhaps, but inclusive.

Well actually, the hubby does the supermarket deal, so I wouldn't be seen
too often at a checkout line
I hope I didn't ruin too many peoples illusions.

Nah: confirmed, affirmed, illuminated is more like it.
Told more of the story, another side of the story.

I am always happy to do that :-)

Peace, for real. :)
c.s.

It comes in nice smooth doses you know....the for real stuff.

Tasha


I'm not going to comment on this bit by bit, but I just want to say, I am
not an enemy of Laura. On the conrary, I highly respect her, her postings,
and her opnions.
This dosen't mean I agree with all of them as I don't agree with many things
or people, a good deal of the time. This by no means makes any of her
comments or feelings less valid because I don't agree. This is obviously
the conclusion Laura has reached in her experience and evaluation and I have
reached other conclusions and opnions.

They might be different, but they are all valid.

Not to worry...I am not mad. :-) I don't think Laura is attacking *me* I
have explained my position and how I practice. It's the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but. As long as I am free to do that, I am happy :-)

Tasha


Ms Goodwin wrote:

Oh, yeah yeah, now every pro dom on the net is going to feel obligated
to flame me to ashes. Thanks Peter! What a dick you are. This is a
perfect example of a troublemaking guy trying to turn women against
each other. * Don't be a sucker for that tactic! * I'm not an enemy
to Tasha or to any other pro. I have been a pro, I know what goes on,
I've talked to tens of thousands of pro's customers, I know what goes
on. I don't feel the need to participate in the smokescreen, that's
all!

Peter wrote:
When I first saw this, I was greatly offended. But then - after reading
previous postings from you - I chuckled and thought it was another example
of
your sense of humor.

But then I became offended again.

After seeing the amount of commentary generated by my first posting, I
believe
what I said was legitimate. You may not agree with me, but you don't have
to
get personal. How would you like it if I referred to you as "another cunt
who
passes on the blame because the entire world doesn't agree with everything
you
say."

Which brings me to another point. How much respect should a woman give to
men
when in a dominant-submissive relationship ... or a forum such as this?

Aren't we allowed to express our feelings? Aren't we allowed to have
opinions?
What is the situation with your husband, Ms Goodwin? Do you dismiss him as
a
troublemaking prick any time anything he says leads to a situation in
which you
are uncomfortable?

I once was in a dialogue with a man who was in a submissive relationship.
I
asked him about what would happen if he disagreed with his partner on a
subject. He said that if his partner asked him to get branded, he would
argue,
protest and fight ... and then he would get branded. But at least he was
given
an opportunity to comment.

I don't think you're a cunt, Ms Goodwin, but isn't it better to lead by
example?

And, for what it is worth, I have known two professional dommes, such as
Tasha
Star.

Both of them did their job without any sex. And both of them were looking
for
lifelong submissive partners who would be (obviously) subservient to them
and
provide them with exactly what THEY needed in a traditional vanilla
relationship.

peter



___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com. For a
list
and description of supported mailing list commands, send mail to
femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


-------- REPLY, End of original message --------


--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
***NEW-NEW-NEW-WEBSITE***
see my *under construction site at:
http://www.shadow.net/~tasha
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 03:27:36 -0400
From: Lonely2001@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-ID: <960428032734_523521672@emout07.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-27 17:13:50 EDT, you write:


I realize my weekness in this regard. That is, a desire to be dominated. I
am
submissive to all women in general (I am regarded as "chivalrous" and a
"nice
guy"). But I know that if I was in a vanilla relationship I would be
dissatisfied after a while. I make sure to tell someone I am dating before
we
get too serious. I am sad to say, most, so far, think it is sick,
depraved,
perverted, etc. I have been puzzled by this. They don't like the idea of a
man to do their bidding? Lost a lot of girlfriends... But I believe
honesty
is important.

Honesty is indispensable.
I can tell you after years of being (or trying to be) a
'nice guy' that it's worth it.
If you hang in there, cultivate patience, gentleness with
strength, and an open mind and heart, you won't regret it.
You really won't. You may not get what you want, but you'll
get what you need, with interest.

Peace,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

I heartily agree. I will never change the way I am. But it's still pretty
lonely being without an owner.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 17:52:37 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Message-Id: <199604280752.RAA14493@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tasha,

Power to YOU!

MyKey

At 01:08 PM 26/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
-- [ From: TashaStar * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
Hey Peter (and anybody else who's still tuning in), Pro dominants say=
=20
there
will be no sex to get around anti-prostitution laws. BDSM is not=20
ideally
non-sexual. Its magical allure has its roots sunk deep in the sex
drive and
the social urge to connect. =20
=20
Ahem. Some Pro Dominants say there will be no sex, because there will be
no
sex.
=20
Even with no blow-jobs nor hand jobs, no intercourse, no oral worship=
=20
nor
"forced" masturbation, no occasion at all for the sub's sexual relief,
BDSM
is
still *supposed to be* an intense sensual and psychosexual adventure.=
=20
As a
matter of fact, Pro doms *are* trafficing in orgasms, as well as=
sexual
fantasy enactments, and anyone who thinks otherwise is na=EFve. =20
=20
So, I am naive ?? (only about how to get the two dots over the i)
=20
Here's how it works: Gal runs an ad that says: Ms. Domina Payne - BDSM=
=20
fantasy
- no sex - no straight. In/Out.=20
Guy calls and says "Hey Ms. Payne, is it true there is no sex =
involved?
"=20
She
says yes, because how does she know the guy is no cop?
Guy comes anyway, sincerely expecting no sex. If something about him=
=20
seems
fishy, he won't get any. If she trusts him, or is so desperate to
build her
business that she's reckless, or has Mafia protection, he may get a
vibrator
applied to his balls within minutes. :)
=20
I am really amazed that you think you know *my* business practise so well.
You
were close till the last bits.
=20
There are a few very =E9lite Pros who are so expert or so famous (or so=
=20
old)
that they seem like royalty, and extreme patience and courtesy is=20
required,
but they still can be had, if they like you. Or, if you show enough
cash.
:)
=20
<<snort I realize I am taking this personally, but then again, I=
haven't
seen another Pro defend this statement. Am I the only professional on the
list
?
=20
I am not so famous, or so old (34) and though I consider myself elite,
there is
NO way in hell that I EVER have sex with a client. Even if I was offered=
a
scandalous amount of money.=20
This is not about sex for me. I make that plain to all potential clients.=
=20

This is about power and the chance to influence someones life.
IMO and experience, Male Dominants are driven by sex, and most female
Dominants
are driven by money or power. I am driven by the power rush.
=20
In my career as a BDSM activist I have run up against the idea that=20
*lovers*, that *husbands and wives* who are into S/M don't have regular=
=20
sex! That a sadomasochist _substitutes_ B/D games for intercourse,=20
etc., which I hope *everyone* will one day know is a totally false=20
idea! That's what makes people think we are freaks: we don't have=20
"normal" sex. Well, this insane notion is being promulgated by the pro=
=20
doms, who are only too glad to act as spokespeople for the BDSM=20
community.=20
=20
I can see I will probably not make too many friends on this list, but=20
scuze
me, I am a lifestyle Domme as well as a professional Domina, and was
recently
appointed to the board of directors of our local bdsm support
club because I am a "good spokesperson" for the bdsm community.
=20
I am glad to do so, yes. I promulgate no fiction about the lifestyle. (
or
about my services)
=20
I actually have heard, more than once in recent memory,=20
some Pro or another saying that not even any real pain is involved! =20
WHHHAAAAT!? So save yer money and go to Disneyland instead, then! I=20
mean, PUH-LeeeeeZe! I have been known to throw things at the TV on=20
occasions like this, because such *LIES* make _my_ job harder to do,=20
and my job is hard enough as it is.
=20
Have fun at Disneyland, save money by not throwing things at the TV. There
is
no doubt Pain involved if S&M is to occur. Mild-moderate-or severe.
=20
I don't travel in the same circles or hear the same thing you do since Pro=
=20
friends of mine are of the responsible type and I don't think any of the
ones=20
I network with or associate with, tell lies about what we do.
I do not discount that there are plenty "hookers with whips" that will fit
into
your mold but I am not one, and I know several others like me. =20
All I ask is that you refrain from grouping all Pro's in that stereotype.
=20
You have to recognize something. The job of a Professional Domina,
is often role playing, acting of sorts. This is for the person who
requests
a non S&M scene. As a professional, my realm is more comphrehensive then
just
whipping clients into submission and sending them on their way...this
isn't
how I work.=20
=20
I am frequently needed to be a supportive role to someone who cross=
dresses
and
does not have S&M desires. Not a *forced* feminization, but a simple
acceptance of the fact that they enjoy CD'ing.
I am trained in counseling and use it often, sometimes insidiously to
assist
those who feel abnormal in their desires and seek approval and acceptance.
In
*these* cases, there would not be pain, but these are not classified as a
S&M
session. =20
=20
So, guess what ?? A professional Domina isn't always wearing leather and=
=20
swinging floggers and balancing dildos from her hip.
I hope I didn't ruin too many peoples illusions.
=20
Gosh, this thread is making me furious.
=20
Tasha
=20
--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
***NEW-NEW-NEW-WEBSITE***
see my *under construction site at:
http://www.shadow.net/~tasha
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^

------- FORWARD, End of original message -------


--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
***NEW-NEW-NEW-WEBSITE***
see my *under construction site at:
http://www.shadow.net/~tasha
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 04:10:28 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Message-Id: <199604281110.EAA19437@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

And it seems that the more women start talking, really talking
to one another, and really listening to one another, the
stronger all of you will become.

c.s.

Sure, that's the point of the NGs and this list, so we *all* can talk
about WIITWD and our lives. There's a powerful need for us to be able
to share the truth about our lives with one another.
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 04:06:48 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Message-Id: <199604281106.EAA11843@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com

None of the ones I have known personally had sex (as men
understand it) with any male client. Sex was more likely
something done with a 'steady' partner (of either gender).

OK, but how do you define "sex"?

There are in fact huge numbers of Pro Doms who make it their business
to sexually gratify their customers in sessions, usually by
masturbating the guy while he's in bondage, using vibrators, dildos,
etc. or by ordering/allowing him to masturbate himself while kneeling
or grovelling, and wearing his fetish stuff. Isn't this "sex"?
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 04:10:35 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: More about orgasms
Message-Id: <199604281110.EAA26810@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

MICHAEL J. CRETARO"


As far as femdom as a means to female supremacy. Any domination should
have as its end result, mental and emotional domination. not
phyisical. The phyisical part leads to the mental and emotional . This
occurs when the male orgasm has been completely feminized.

Well, sure, that's one method... :)

As it stands now the male erection and the orgasm it produces
are nothing more than blatant aggression. It fills the male mind with
ideas of power and control. This must be reversed. A means of doing
this is to reverse the conditions under which the male is brought to
orgasm. instead of man on top, man on bottom instead of man in
control, man tied up and under control. instead of man orgasming when
he wants to, man orgasming when female allows him to if she allows him
to at all.

Well, I agree with this, natch ;) My slaves aren't allowed to orgasm
except *as* and *when* I decree, usually *after* I've had mine. :) We
have a saying in my house: "Ladies first!". :)

you know what they say, when you've got them by the balls, their
hearts and their minds will follow.

True, or in the case of female slaves, "by the ovaries". ;)

--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 17:36:42 +0100
From: newworld@dircon.co.uk (ian)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: RE: No Sex Professionals
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I was very fortunate to have a very intense two year love affair with a
Professional Dominatrix.

I loved the fact she was a "Professional Dominatrix", I found it incredibly
sexy.

She resented me feeling that way, she wanted me to be jealous of her other
slaves. She was not assured I loved her for what she WAS rather than for
what she DID.

Now there in lies the root cause of a lot of the problems in establishing a
s/m/fetish love life! Take note guys!

I was not jealous of her (other) slaves because I trusted her. I knew that
there was "no sex". I understood that there was an intimacy that we had
together that was special. There were certain physical activities between
us that were for us alone to share. There were no off limit activities
between us. We were lovers in every sense of the word and we were also
Mistress and slave.

However the notion of no sex is a tenuous one to grasp. I knew the sexual
energy in her dungeon was incredibly immense. I knew that she did get
aroused in the dungeon. I knew that her slaves were dribbling with desire
for her. There was intense sexual activity going on in there but of a
different quality and quantity then that reserved for us.

I could never understand the strange antipathy Mistress had to her
business. At times she seemed to despise herself for doing it. She would
get so angry with me because of the way I viewed it. She knew that I
thought of it in a very positive way (like a social service). It would
enrage her when she could see that I thought her work sexy, I would have
loved to watch her at work or talk with her about what she did that day,
but even me thinking about it would throw her into a black mood. So I never
even mentioned this to her. I found the safest way to conduct our relations
was not to refer to her work at all.

She was one of the most passionately jealous women I have ever known.
Jealous of my excitement and pleasure arising from her role as a Mistress
with others. Jealous of my (innocent) gaze towards other Mistress's/women
at S/m/fetish clubs and parties (or anywhere come to think of it). Jealous
of my childish enthusiasm and naive delight in the s/m scene (still intact
after 20+ years of exploration).

I am ashamed to admit I had little sympathy for her psychological turmoil
arising from her inner conflicts regarding her occupation. To me she was
(and is) an incredibly wonderful person who could turn her hand to any
occupation she chose. I would say to her, "If it bothers you do something
else".

Us men can be pigs sometimes without meaning it.

This two year experience has left me very confused. I have thought long and
hard about it for the last 12 months since we parted. I still see her as a
friend (only apart from a couple of recent occasions when we "lapsed" into
a scene together and this has left me even more confused).

It was a the type of relationship I have dreamed about all my life. I tried
so hard to make it work and on those occasions when it did it was like
heaven on earth. Needless to say at other times it was like hell.

My confidence in my ability to make the kind of relationship I need has
received a devastating blow.

I think the Goddess sent me this opportunity and I blew it. I wonder if she
will give me another chance?


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:22:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Some Personal Observations
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

The OHSU computer system is having fits, so please forgive me if
this post is not exactly relevant or up-to-date. Many of the recent
posts have dealt with FemDom rather than FemSupremacy issues, and I
thought I'd add one person's perspective to this thread. Please keep in
mind that I am very new to the "scene" and have dealt with it in only one
area. Also, some of my files were wiped out so I will not attempt to
cite exact quotes and may even misidentify authors.
Since I am a "newbie" with the local bdsm community, I feel very
emphatic with those folks who are having trouble fitting in. As has been
said often in this list it takes time, especially if you are a male
submissive. Female dominants have the "pick of the litter", so expect to
have a long wait. Still, if these feelings are so important to you, the
time you spend will be worth it. Meanwhile, what can you do to make
things happen?
For starters, show up! (thank you Laura and c.s). One person
related a bad experience with the local bdsm group, and maybe he does
indeed live in a place full of jerks. But more than likely his inherent
shyness, coupled with an initial meeting with some insensitive people,
turned him off. Get used to it, bucko, you're gonna get shot down
frequently. Keep trying, and be honest; state what you desire and what
you are willing to give. Here in Portland it seemed like people were
lining up to give me counseling, advice, and comfort; I soon understood
what the terms "bdsm community" and "leatherfolk" meant. If you're
sincere, people will help you out even if they don't have a personal
interest in you.
Once you've got your feet on the ground, show some flash!
Contribute to the Community in any way you can. Remember Laura's posts
on her organizational efforts? Sure, very few of us have the ability
to do that much, but you have to start somewhere. Volunteer to help
set up parties, work on your local group's newsletter, plan and
organize events, or whatever. People will notice, and then they may
start thinking of you in other contexts.........;-
As for the ProDomme issue, I have dealt with only one. Even
though she knew that I was in a relationship and had "no commercial
potential" (thank you, F. Zappa), she went out of her way to help me
out and cheer me up. I don't know if she has sex with her clients or
not, but if she is in any way representative of the Pros in general
they are a very good group.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:
unsubscribe
Re: attitude
some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Re: One great thing :)
Re: One great thing :)
Re: some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Re: attitude

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:17:43 GMT
From: Cookie@pre-haz.demon.co.uk
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id: <349@pre-haz.demon.co.uk

(In reply to your message dated Thursday 18, April 1996)

--

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 21:31:25 -0500
From: TashaStar
To: FemSupremacy
CC: "msnat@aol.com"
Subject: Re: attitude
Message-Id: <199604200228.WAA24171@anshar.shadow.net

-- [ From: TashaStar * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --


-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
Subject: attitude

Does anybody know if this magazine called attitude is available in europe
or
on the net?
I just heard about it, it sounds interesting but I don't know much more
about it.
Is it worth a try?
Bernd

Bernd,
Here is the info you request:
Attitude is a mag for (according to the title)
Dominant women and those who adore them.
You can subscribe by calling 1-800-4Fetish
(1yr subscription is $75.00-6 issues)

It is ok, but not my favorite mag, and it is available
in the states, but I didn't see it internationally.
It was not available in England on my last trip.

The other Magazines that I prefer:
Domina - The world of corrective eroticism.
$20 US/issue (L8-UK)
Domina US address is 305 Madison Avenue, Suite 1166,
NY,NY 10165
UK address is27 Old Gloucester St. London, WC1 3XX.

And: Bondage Tymes, which is a newly revised magazine created by
a local Domina here in my area. (More on the Goddess lifestyles and
interviews with women who subscribe to Fem Supremacy and Dominas)
$50/yr subscript-6 issues
R&F enterprises PO box 23604, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33307-3604

There are many good publications out there, catering to many different
tastes,
fetish, and interest. Good luck finding what you want!!

Tasha





-------- REPLY, End of original message --------


--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
You can read info about me and see my picture on:
http://www.buffnet.net/~jaguar/MSJ-FDOM.HTM
(please enter URL *exactly* as it is here)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 20:09:52 -0700
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604210309.UAA11076@sweden.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

While Female supremacy in the largest social sense seems a distant vision
there are some steps one can take immediately, that are entirely under
personal control, to help move in that direction.

(1) Support Female political power
a-vote Female: unless there is clear reason not to (and usually things
just aren't that clear) vote for Female candidates over male candidates,
vote for issues that favor and aid Women, and vote against issues that don't
serve Women's interests.
b-contribute financially to Female candidates (e.g., Emily's List, The
Feminist Majority, etc.)
c-If you're in a relationship with a dominant Woman ask for and accept
Her guidance in marking your ballot.

(2) Support Female causes
a-Women's health (e.g.,National Breast Cancer Coalition)
b-Women appreciation activities (e.g.,Women in the Arts, The Women's
Memorial [veterans])
c-Women's development (e.g., The National Council for Research on Women)

(3) Seek out and use Woman provided services and businesses
a-personal physician (you may be surprised at how much you like it)
b-buying a car or home: buy it from a Woman; your commission might as
well go to help raise the incomes of Women.
c-insurance broker, stock broker (ditto)
d-etc.

(4) Make yourself available to help the Women you work with
a-Your boss: go the extra mile to be of service to Her and help Her
succeed and move up.
b-Colleages: be respectful, and helpful; volunteer to take on some of
Her work load if you can; praise Her to the boss if you have a chance; ask
Her advice if you get stuck (you may be surprised at how wise She is); it's
good to keep in mind you might be working for Her someday, too.
c-Suborinates: treat Her with the respect you afford an equal; nurture
and work with Her to move up; offer Her experiences and opportunities that
allow Her to develop Her career.

(5) Help the Women you work or live with learn their dominant role
a-Act deferrential (that's like submissive, but not so obvious)
1-listen attentively, and don't interrup Her when She talks
2-if in doubt ask Her opinion
3-if She expresses a desire, do it. Whether it's a hint or a flat
out demand; the more you do what She says the more She will say what She
wants you to do. The longer and the more She does it the more She'll
develop the expectation that you should do what She says. Don't rush Her;
this kind of learning takes awhile.
b-take initiative in making Her life better and easier. Start with
small things and work up to the big things (that way it doesn't seem so
masochistic, and will be less likely to put Her off on that account. Ask
Her if you can bring Her coffee or a cold drink, or go to the store for
something She likes or wants, or wash the dishes or the clothes or clear the
floor, etc. Work up; if you're consistent She'll like it (just human
nature) and pretty soon you'll be shouldering much of Her work and She'll be
expecting it.
c-Help Her resolve Her conflict between guilt and selfishness in Her
favor. If you can tell She really wants something but feels guilty because
it would deprive you, don't let Her agonize over it or defer to you; take
it out of Her hands and refuse it; insist that She have it. If it's a task
She doesn't want to do, just start doing it for Her; don't wait for Her to
have to decide.
Once you remove guilt from the issue by seizing the initiative you'll
probably be pleasantly surprised at how pleased She is with indulging
Herself at your expense. If applied consistently it will likely become
easier and easer for Her put guilt aside and have things Her way. Again
start small and work your way up slowly; if you rush ahead too fast She'll
perceive the nature of the change and fall back. Let Her grow thoroughly
accustomed to each level of service before you move on to the next.

Actually there is an incredible amount one can just do if sufficiently
motivated and really serious about it. The items above are things I
actually do as opportunities present themselves in real life, and I find
really quite satisfying in and of themselves. When done properly these
things can be done with vanilla as well as dominantly disposed Women. Its
quite exciting I might add dealing Women in non intimate situations when you
see in the glint of their eyes a suddent realization of what you're doing
(of course you should never do this stuff in circumstances that would make
Her feel threatened or awkard.)

Finally, as a post scrip, as you do this stuff not only are Women empowered
but you feel increasingly deferential and committed to their empowerment.
I'm afraid I wandered a bit, but anyway I'm done... hope at least someome
finds something of interest here.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 08:21:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

I felt that zbobz's post was a very positive contribution to the
oft-discussed question of how we can each take individual steps to reach
the goal of Female Supremacy.
The only part that saddened me (and this does not make it any
less true) was the fact that men must take the initiative to reveal to some
women the role that should be theirs by right. Our society has been
so effective in relegating women to second-class status that many have
come to accept that position. Rather than merely being angry about this
injustice, zbobz is attempting to rectify it.
It takes a special kind of courage to assume the initiative in
order to surrender it, and it requires honor and integrity to avoid being
seduced by the power you assume. My regards to zbobz for displaying all
three of these qualities.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: One great thing :)
Message-Id: <199604212122.OAA05252@netcom11.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3667

Originally posted here last August by JNohel1@aol.com. I am _still_
looking for this book anywhere, and wonder if it really exists. I suppose
I could always call NYU Press and ask, but some men aren't good at asking
for help. :P

c.s.

Here's the original post:

The following is from New York University Press. A
scholarly book on Female Supremacy. i thought the list would
find the review interesting. The book will not be available
till fall, i believe...

***New York University Press, Summer-Fall 1995.***

"The Castration of Oedipus: Psychoanalysis, Postmodernism,
and Feminism" by: J.C. Smith and Carla Ferstman

The intellectual movements of psychoanalysis, postmodernism,
and feminism have redefined the ways in which we think about
human experience. Each, in its own way, has challenged
deeply-held societal notions about the ways in which humans
interact and the ways in which power is negotiated across
gender boundaries.

... In this landmark book, J.C. Smith and Carla Ferstman
combine these disparate traditions to create a provocative,
unified, and tightly woven perspective that transcends the
misogyny implicit in much of Freudian psychoanalytic theory.

The dialectic of domination and submission in the context of
gender-identified people is central to Smith and Ferstman's
argument. Men and women, they insist, must avoid the
temptation to fetishize equality and recognize the roles of
domination and submission in the human psyche, or, in
Nietzsche's terms, "the Will to Power."

With this recognition they can begin to undermine the
patriarchal nature of equality. They argue that the
unification of psychoanalysis, postmodernism, and
feminism...

....leads us to the shocking conclusion that women and men
cannot move beyhond the misery and suffering which so haunts
the human condition,

...unless heterosexual men surrender the power that is
causing their misery, and affirm life by joyfully accepting
domination by women...

...and coversely, women reaffirm their power through
rejecting Oedipal genderization and sexuality by embracing a
liberating matriarchal consciousness and a matriphallic
sexuality.

....Smith and Ferstman explore the consequences of reading
Nietzsche and Lacan in radical feminist terms as they
consider the issues of religion, law, and pornography.

A work of tremendous insight and extraordinary intellectual
energy, 'The Castration of Oedipus' will provoke strong
reactions in all readers regardless of ideology.

J.C.Smith is Professor of Law at the University of British
Columbia, and the author of 'The Psychoanalytic Roots of
Patriarchy: The Neurotic Foundations of Social Order.'
Carla J. Ferstman is Associate Counsel at the firm of Bolton
and Muldoon.






the subject "help".



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: One great thing :)
Message-Id: <199604212113.OAA04433@netcom11.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 6719

On March 31st, Laura Goodwin wrote (in part):

It's called a library card. Costs nothing: is worth a lot. :) The
importance of educating ourselves is immeasurable. You can't do it once
and be done either: you have to do it a little (or a lot) everyday.
;;; ;;; ;;; ;;;
I wish more of you would post the names/authors of books that support
our worldview. I don't want to miss any. Thank you. :)

And earlier in March, Bernd Angerer wrote:

I am searching for literature about the ideas and visions of a womens
world, at the moment i just know fragments coming from mass-media like tv
and radio.But i want to go deeper in this theme but i do not know where to
start. Any books written by women about this idea?
I feel very good when thinking on female dominance but it is still a very
blurry image in my mind.

Sooooooooooooooo:

Here is my short list of the books I rely on to give me some idea where
all this is going. I know there are many others- I spent yesterday
afternoon in Bookstar (it could just as easily have been the public
library as Laura has urged us or Borders or B&N), and found literally
hundreds of Feminist and Goddess spirituality titles. Most of you have
read or heard of the titles cited here, but here are the references for
searching, borrowing or buying. In continental Europe or in Asia, some of
these might be in the USIS or British library in the larger cities.
The comments are my own and not intended to portray 'correct' Female
Supremacy (or 'correct' anything else). ;D

NON-FICTION

_Women Who Run With the Wolves_ (Myths and Stories of the
Wild Woman Archetype), by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D.,
trade paperback pub. Ballantine Books, New York, 1992.
ISBN 0-345-37744-3

(The title says it all. Tools for women to break away from
cultural conditioning and connect with their archetype(s).
If I could only keep one book about empowering Women, this
would be it. I give it as a gift often.)

_The Feminist Companion to Mythology_, ed. Carolyne
Larrington, trade paperback pub. Pandora, London, 1992.
ISBN 0-04-440850-1

(Not only an excellent anthology of myths and archetypes
arranged by culture, but also a first-class bibliography and
with pointers to many other works. A book you can open
anywhere and learn something new.)

_When God was a Woman_, by Merlin Stone, paperback pub.
Harvest/Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, San Diego, from 1976 on.
ISBN 0-15-696158-X

(From the cover: "The story of the most ancient of
religions, the religion of the worship of the Goddess, and
the role this ancient worship played in Judeo-Christian
attitudes toward women." I personally agree with the general
theme, but not all of Stone's scholarship or explanations. I
still think it's an important essay, well worth reading, and
won't argue with anyone about it.)

Also read but since given away to Women who wanted them:

_Erotic Power_, by Gini Graham Scott, an earlier (1983)
exploration of Woman-dominant BDSM, including a look at the
SMC in its early days in the San Francisco Bay area.

_Women On Top_, by Nancy Friday: a collection of
Woman-dominant erotic fantasies and visions, with
commentary.

Other non-fiction titles to look for:

_Beyond Feminism_ (I think is the title). Introduced and
reviewed here by Robin L. Breth (Trinity, Ladytech) last
summer of fall. I'll check, unless someone has that post
handy. As I recall, it declares the battle won, at least on
an individual basis.

_The Castration of Oedipus_. Heady stuff, see my next post.
I haven't found it yet, and am wondering if it isn't a hoax.
Has anyone seen it?

DON'T FORGET that =huge= list published monthly on alt.sex.femdom,
_The Dominant Woman in Print and Media_, with all kinds of references
and pointers. Also many women who are authors (Janet Hardy to single
out only one) post often on a.s.fd., and make the public aware of their
own and others' publications (mostly in the femdom and behavioral
area).

FICTION

Two fiction classics that formed my early and present erotic
visions:

_Harriet Marwood, Governess_, anonymous. The definitive Victorian
Governess novel, hard to match and one that I suspect has
had a great impact on other fiction of this type. The
absolutely classic schoolboy fantasy, elegantly crafted.

_Fort Frederick_, by a woman named (Francoise)(?) de
Lign(i)eris. A translated French and slightly Gothic novel
in a class by itself: an impoverished aristocratic spinster
shelters an escaped male convict in her crumbling villa.
Breathtaking meditations on power, otheriwse grim and
subtle. (Anyone who locates a copy of this _please_ let me
know. I very much miss having it around. Thanks.)

The late Frank Herbert's epic, awesome (and endless) _Dune_
series (NOT the movie, but the books, all of them) shows us
the _Bene Gesserit_, an omnicompetent and ruthless but
benign order of women dedicated to producing a Messiah
through a millenia-long selective breeding program and
otherwise guiding and manipulating human myths, culture and
history, mitigating at least the grosser horrors when it
suited them. The BG preferred to take the Long View and
operate from offstage, usually leaving childish things like
government and warfare to males. In general, Herbert casts
the BG as the 'good guys,' keeping the lid on civilzation at
critical times. The BG are worth a thread (or even a
newsgroup) all by themselves, or you can read through the 27
pages the _Dune Encyclopedia_ devotes to them. (ed. Willis
E. McNelly, Berkley Books, New York, 1984, no ISBN when I
bought it.)
Better yet, read the _Dune_ books.

(Also a good read is Pamela Sargent's _The Shore Of Women_,
a look at a future Matriarchy in which all adult males are
banished to the wilderness, managed -and mesmerized- by
visiting women. There are others, but I haven't read them.
Worth a thread?)

Just a start, folks. What are =your= books?
Enjoy.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:02:39 -0400
From: Lonely2001@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-ID: <960421190237_474966085@emout14.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-20 23:14:00 EDT, you write:

Finally, as a post scrip, as you do this stuff not only are Women empowered
but you feel increasingly deferential and committed to their empowerment.
I'm afraid I wandered a bit, but anyway I'm done... hope at least someome
finds something of interest here.



Yes, I did.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:02:42 -0400
From: Lonely2001@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-ID: <960421190241_474966116@emout17.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-21 11:32:40 EDT, you write:

The only part that saddened me (and this does not make it any
less true) was the fact that men must take the initiative to reveal to some
women the role that should be theirs by right. Our society has been
so effective in relegating women to second-class status that many have
come to accept that position.

I agree.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:43:51 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-ID: <317AD647.34A6@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lonely2001@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 96-04-21 11:32:40 EDT, you write:

The only part that saddened me (and this does not make it any
less true) was the fact that men must take the initiative to reveal to some
women the role that should be theirs by right. Our society has been
so effective in relegating women to second-class status that many have
come to accept that position.

I agree.

A recent personal experience that supports this view:

Last year I was asked to make an entertaining/educational
presentation for daughter day. My partner and I developed a
presentation on my companies extensive audio/video setup.
She is a VERY intelligent, articulate and attractive woman
and would have been an excellant example to the young ladies
that females can enjoy success in highly technical fields.
Unfortunately she refused to give the presentation, she insisted
on staying at the back of the room, silently, and operate the
various big projection screens and audio devices. I made many
references to her being the "real" show while I was simply
the "mouth" but the young women focused on me. This year she
doesn't even want to participate as she doesn't feel comfortable
with an audience. I've asked several other females to take her
place but they are either too busy or don't like being in front
of a large group. I'm not a "showman" either (just a unix geek
at heart) but I guess my conditioning as a male makes showing
off in front of young women easier !! :-)

Sarcasm aside, this situation troubles me. Many of the daughters
who attend are teens. It is during this stage of life that young
women tend begin a practice of deferring to men. What an
opportunity to show them this behaviour is foolish. Any
suggestions on how I can turn another "man speakes, young
women listen" presentation around would be appreciated. This
year I won't even be able to show them that a female is really
running the show. My daughter is coming this year and I plan on
getting her involved in some way but she is only 8 and whatever
she does will probably come off as a "daddy let her play with
the the buttons" kind of thing.

Thanks for listening

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 18:55:49 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: attitude
Message-Id: <199604220855.SAA03243@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi,
It's probably of no use to you what so ever......
But ATTITUDE is available in Sydney, Australia.
Laura...keep up the good work.

MyKey (From Down Under)

At 09:31 PM 19/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
-- [ From: TashaStar * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --


-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
Subject: attitude

Does anybody know if this magazine called attitude is available in europe
or
on the net?
I just heard about it, it sounds interesting but I don't know much more
about it.
Is it worth a try?
Bernd

Bernd,
Here is the info you request:
Attitude is a mag for (according to the title)
Dominant women and those who adore them.
You can subscribe by calling 1-800-4Fetish
(1yr subscription is $75.00-6 issues)

It is ok, but not my favorite mag, and it is available
in the states, but I didn't see it internationally.
It was not available in England on my last trip.

The other Magazines that I prefer:
Domina - The world of corrective eroticism.
$20 US/issue (L8-UK)
Domina US address is 305 Madison Avenue, Suite 1166,
NY,NY 10165
UK address is27 Old Gloucester St. London, WC1 3XX.

And: Bondage Tymes, which is a newly revised magazine created by
a local Domina here in my area. (More on the Goddess lifestyles and
interviews with women who subscribe to Fem Supremacy and Dominas)
$50/yr subscript-6 issues
R&F enterprises PO box 23604, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33307-3604

There are many good publications out there, catering to many different
tastes,
fetish, and interest. Good luck finding what you want!!

Tasha





-------- REPLY, End of original message --------


--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
You can read info about me and see my picture on:
http://www.buffnet.net/~jaguar/MSJ-FDOM.HTM
(please enter URL *exactly* as it is here)


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #46
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:
Re: some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Unidentified subject!
unsubscribe
Re: One great thing :)
Re: some personal steps
Re: attitude
"Rewrite!"
Re: some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Unsubscribe
unsubscribe
Re: attitude
Re: some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Re: some personal steps
Re: unsubscribe
Re: some personal steps
Re: attitude

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 10:32:56 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604221732.KAA25527@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com

This is a very positive and exciting thread and I'm grateful to all who
are participating in it.

I had a great moment recently...I got together with the rest of my
husband's family for a memorial brunch, and my husband, son, and
daughter all showed lots of affection and respect to me, and quite
un-selfconsiously honored me in lots of little ways. I could see that
their behavior toward me influenced the others present, not only in how
they treated me, but in how they chose to act toward one another in my
presence.

Little things you do have an effect, and that effect builds over time.

I had to *retrain myself* after having been raised to defer to men, and
humble myself reflexively. I decided in my teens that I would be a
respected woman who's actions and opinions mattered, and I have worked
toward that goal not only in my daily life, but even as I slept and
dreamed.

I dress in a serious manner, but attractively, because womanly allure
is a power that I believe in using. How you look sends a message
before you speak a word. I also accept courtesies and complements
without a fuss. I can't believe all the women who will actually argue
with you if you try to honor them somehow; offer them a better seat,
for example. If someone offers me a kind word or a better seat, I take
it. I show approval when someone is respectful to me, and disapproval
when someone is flip or rude to me. People like to be approved of, and
eventually they tend to do more of what you approve of.

Don't be namby-pamby. Show what you like and dislike. If you try too
hard to fit in or you'll end up shinking to fit what little space is
left over when the egos who are more assertive are done.

Men who are respectful to women and will tolerate no insults against
women can also have a huge effect in a positive direction, without ever
degrading themselves or insulting their own sex or seeming unmanly.
Men who are hateful to women may need to get their rebuke from another
man, because they don't care for what women say. It works better if it
comes from a respectable guy. Women who are timid benefit greatly from
encouragement from men, because they are accustomed to seeking male
approval. It works better if it comes from an upstanding guy that
other people respect. Femsupremacy men have a pivotal role to play, and
can be a huge help. They will be more help if they are healthy in mind
and body, and respectable.

I agree that we'll all be better off when more women become bolder and
take on more leadership roles. Sometimes the only solution is for a
group of uppity women to organize for the specific purpose of
supporting their more timid and ill-organized sisters until they get
some wind in their sails. Femsupremacy men sometimes suffer from a
loneliness unique to their brotherhood, and they struggle with
self-esteem issues too. Each of us has to do what we can for
ourselves, but not *by ourselves*. We need to make the effort to get
together, not just in thought, but in the flesh.

I therefore invite you all to my house for coffee, tea, and cookies :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:52:54 -0400
From: willow
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-ID: <317BC776.72877A44@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:

... I therefore invite you all to my house for coffee, tea, and cookies :)
--
Laura Goodwin


Cookies? I LOVE cookies! Yummy!

*giggle*
willow

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:50:26 +0200
From: jean-claude.knebeler@ci.educ.lu (Jean-Claude Knebeler)
To: femsuprem@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id: <199604221755.TAA03929@pop2.restena.lu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

unsubscribe
Jean-Claude Knebeler e-mail:jean-claude.knebeler@ci.educ.lu
134, rue des 3 cantons Tel. : (+352) 37 83 01
L-4980 Reckange/Mess
Luxembourg (Europe)

Uelzechtkanal-TV, Luxembourgs 1st regional cable-TV network seeks
cooperation throughout the world. Contact us via my e-mail adress or call
(+352) 556285-234

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 20:12:18 +0200
From: jean-claude.knebeler@ci.educ.lu (Jean-Claude Knebeler)
To: femsuprem@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id: <199604221816.UAA04429@pop2.restena.lu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jean-Claude Knebeler e-mail:jean-claude.knebeler@ci.educ.lu
134, rue des 3 cantons Tel. : (+352) 37 83 01
L-4980 Reckange/Mess
Luxembourg (Europe)

Uelzechtkanal-TV, Luxembourgs 1st regional cable-TV network seeks
cooperation throughout the world. Contact us via my e-mail adress or call
(+352) 556285-234

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:26:18 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: One great thing :)
Message-Id: <199604221926.VAA22833@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings wrote:
Here is my short list of the books ....(snipped a little bit away)


Ah,... well..uh..., thank you very much, that is quite a lot to read now.
:)

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:26:20 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604221926.VAA22837@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:

... I therefore invite you all to my house for coffee, tea, and cookies
:)
--
Laura Goodwin


Miiiiiiles away, but I am there. :)
ThanXs Laura.

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:26:17 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: attitude
Message-Id: <199604221926.VAA22831@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,
It's probably of no use to you what so ever......
But ATTITUDE is available in Sydney, Australia.
Laura...keep up the good work.

MyKey (From Down Under)


Common answer here in austria to that: No, we dont have cangaroos :)

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:39:01 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: "Rewrite!"
Message-Id: <199604222139.OAA08382@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

If you try too hard to fit in or* you'll end up shinking to fit what
little space is left over when the egos who are more assertive are
done.

*Oops, take out the "or" and the sentence makes a little more sense. :)

How's this: Dont' try to hard to fit in or you'll end up shrinking to
fit the space left over after more assertive egos are done.

There, isn't that better? I know, who cares!? :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 20:19:24 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

i have enjoyed the postings here, especially from Ms Goodwin and Ms LeBlanc
and have saved some of their thoughts for future reference. They have a
relationship with their husbands that most men here can only dream of and
my thoughts of their lifestyle is only surpassed by the jealousy i have for
their husbands.

Today, Ms Goodwin, in part wrote:

I agree that we'll all be better off when more women become bolder and
take on more leadership roles. Sometimes the only solution is for a
group of uppity women to organize for the specific purpose of
supporting their more timid and ill-organized sisters until they get
some wind in their sails. Femsupremacy men sometimes suffer from a
loneliness unique to their brotherhood, and they struggle with
self-esteem issues too. Each of us has to do what we can for
ourselves, but not *by ourselves*. We need to make the effort to get
together, not just in thought, but in the flesh.

It's true that a man in a vanilla marriage, with a wife not interested in
femdom, can help further the cause by showing respect to all women and
helping to develop the leadership role of women.

In doing so, we will make it easier for women in the future to assert their
power over men. And more men will find it easier to develop their
submissiveness.

Is this a good example of martyrdom?

peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

This is a very positive and exciting thread and I'm grateful to all who
are participating in it.

No jive! I was just composing a letter to my friends in Russia when the
line *five new messages have arrived* flashed onscreen. I don't think
I've ever seen this much concentrated activity on any newslist.

We need to make the effort to get together, not just in thought, but
in the flesh.
I therefore invite you all to my house for coffee, tea, and cookies :)

A gracious invitation, Lady Laura, and I will call you in advance should
I ever be in Connecticut again. Until then, I would like to emulate your
gesture and extend a similar invitation to my Friends on FemSupremacy.
The Pacific Northwest is a beautiful place for a vacation, and if you're
passing through let me know. I'll show you around Portland and give you
information about other good places to visit.

Your posting also made many references to the role of men in a
post-Patriarchal society. This is an area of intense interest to me, but
right now I am whacked out (another on-call trauma shift) and wish to
collect my thoughts before I reply. So you are saved from my blatherings
for a short time! :-)

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:21:03 -0400
From: CaptMongo@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <960422212101_196630294@emout15.mail.aol.com

captmongo@aol.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 08:32:28 +0200
From: wwtzu@wooltru.za (Tomasz Zukowski)
TO: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id:

Item Subject: Re: attitude
unsubscribe


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 21:03:06 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: attitude
Message-Id: <199604231103.VAA23152@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bernd,
I am not surprised that you don't have Cangeroos. I believe that you may be
referring to that wonderful furry marsupial that keeps her baby (a Joey) in
her pouch.....a Kangaroo

MyKey (from Down Under)

At 09:26 PM 22/4/96 +0200, you wrote:
Hi,
It's probably of no use to you what so ever......
But ATTITUDE is available in Sydney, Australia.
Laura...keep up the good work.

MyKey (From Down Under)


Common answer here in austria to that: No, we dont have cangaroos :)

Bernd

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 21:03:10 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604231103.VAA23187@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Barry,
Damn shame about the on-call trauma shift, another day...maybe.
All the same, thanxs for the invite.

MyKey

At 06:08 PM 22/4/96 -0700, you wrote:


On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

This is a very positive and exciting thread and I'm grateful to all who
are participating in it.

No jive! I was just composing a letter to my friends in Russia when the
line *five new messages have arrived* flashed onscreen. I don't think
I've ever seen this much concentrated activity on any newslist.

We need to make the effort to get together, not just in thought, but
in the flesh.
I therefore invite you all to my house for coffee, tea, and cookies :)

A gracious invitation, Lady Laura, and I will call you in advance should
I ever be in Connecticut again. Until then, I would like to emulate your
gesture and extend a similar invitation to my Friends on FemSupremacy.
The Pacific Northwest is a beautiful place for a vacation, and if you're
passing through let me know. I'll show you around Portland and give you
information about other good places to visit.

Your posting also made many references to the role of men in a
post-Patriarchal society. This is an area of intense interest to me, but
right now I am whacked out (another on-call trauma shift) and wish to
collect my thoughts before I reply. So you are saved from my blatherings
for a short time! :-)

Peace,

Barry

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 21:03:03 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604231103.VAA23138@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura,
Thank you for the insight and invite to drinks and bikkies, I would love to
attend but the distance does not permit at this stage.

MyKey (From Down Under)

At 10:32 AM 22/4/96 -0700, you wrote:
This is a very positive and exciting thread and I'm grateful to all who
are participating in it.

I had a great moment recently...I got together with the rest of my
husband's family for a memorial brunch, and my husband, son, and
daughter all showed lots of affection and respect to me, and quite
un-selfconsiously honored me in lots of little ways. I could see that
their behavior toward me influenced the others present, not only in how
they treated me, but in how they chose to act toward one another in my
presence.

Little things you do have an effect, and that effect builds over time.

I had to *retrain myself* after having been raised to defer to men, and
humble myself reflexively. I decided in my teens that I would be a
respected woman who's actions and opinions mattered, and I have worked
toward that goal not only in my daily life, but even as I slept and
dreamed.

I dress in a serious manner, but attractively, because womanly allure
is a power that I believe in using. How you look sends a message
before you speak a word. I also accept courtesies and complements
without a fuss. I can't believe all the women who will actually argue
with you if you try to honor them somehow; offer them a better seat,
for example. If someone offers me a kind word or a better seat, I take
it. I show approval when someone is respectful to me, and disapproval
when someone is flip or rude to me. People like to be approved of, and
eventually they tend to do more of what you approve of.

Don't be namby-pamby. Show what you like and dislike. If you try too
hard to fit in or you'll end up shinking to fit what little space is
left over when the egos who are more assertive are done.

Men who are respectful to women and will tolerate no insults against
women can also have a huge effect in a positive direction, without ever
degrading themselves or insulting their own sex or seeming unmanly.
Men who are hateful to women may need to get their rebuke from another
man, because they don't care for what women say. It works better if it
comes from a respectable guy. Women who are timid benefit greatly from
encouragement from men, because they are accustomed to seeking male
approval. It works better if it comes from an upstanding guy that
other people respect. Femsupremacy men have a pivotal role to play, and
can be a huge help. They will be more help if they are healthy in mind
and body, and respectable.

I agree that we'll all be better off when more women become bolder and
take on more leadership roles. Sometimes the only solution is for a
group of uppity women to organize for the specific purpose of
supporting their more timid and ill-organized sisters until they get
some wind in their sails. Femsupremacy men sometimes suffer from a
loneliness unique to their brotherhood, and they struggle with
self-esteem issues too. Each of us has to do what we can for
ourselves, but not *by ourselves*. We need to make the effort to get
together, not just in thought, but in the flesh.

I therefore invite you all to my house for coffee, tea, and cookies :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 21:03:08 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604231103.VAA23174@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hear, Hear.
You may not be an angel, but your a saint.

MyKey

At 08:19 PM 22/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
i have enjoyed the postings here, especially from Ms Goodwin and Ms LeBlanc
and have saved some of their thoughts for future reference. They have a
relationship with their husbands that most men here can only dream of and
my thoughts of their lifestyle is only surpassed by the jealousy i have for
their husbands.

Today, Ms Goodwin, in part wrote:

I agree that we'll all be better off when more women become bolder and
take on more leadership roles. Sometimes the only solution is for a
group of uppity women to organize for the specific purpose of
supporting their more timid and ill-organized sisters until they get
some wind in their sails. Femsupremacy men sometimes suffer from a
loneliness unique to their brotherhood, and they struggle with
self-esteem issues too. Each of us has to do what we can for
ourselves, but not *by ourselves*. We need to make the effort to get
together, not just in thought, but in the flesh.

It's true that a man in a vanilla marriage, with a wife not interested in
femdom, can help further the cause by showing respect to all women and
helping to develop the leadership role of women.

In doing so, we will make it easier for women in the future to assert their
power over men. And more men will find it easier to develop their
submissiveness.

Is this a good example of martyrdom?

peter


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 08:45:35 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604231545.IAA23536@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

It's true that a man in a vanilla marriage, with a wife not interested
in femdom, can help further the cause by showing respect to all women
and helping to develop the leadership role of women.

Is this a good example of martyrdom?
peter

* Martyr *: n. 1) A person who chooses to suffer death, rather than
renounce her/his religion. 2) A person who endures great suffering on
behalf of any principle or cause.

Hi Peter. :) If you are simply being true to yourself, it's not
martyrdom. If you try to live a double life, paying lip-service to the
idea of female supremacy while continuing to enjoy a servile wife and
all your other cock-privleges, then that is hypocrisy. But if you are
honest and true and consistant, then you are simply an honest man...a
real man.

A martyr is a woman or man who endures persecution or hardships for the
sake of a cause. Many femdom men endure frustration to keep one foot
in each camp. I don't think this qualifies. Get on one side or the
other and devote your whole self and life indivisibly, taking whatever
blows come with it bravely, and then you might be a martyr.
Personally, I don't wish for martyrdom...it's never more desireable to
be persecuted. Still, I pray that if persecution comes, that I have
the right stuff to withstand it bravely and remain true.

Horrors can be brought to bear that even the most courageous cannot
withstand. Everyone has their breaking point. I hope you never find
out what yours is...I wouldn't wish that on any friend. I know too
much about brainwashing and the limits of human endurance to say with
any certainty that I could endure the ultimate martyrdom. But I *can*
certainly endure disappointment, frustration, and boredom, even
cheerfully, for my cause, and so can you. :)

--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:45:05 -0400
From: Janice1223@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <960423194504_279076416@emout09.mail.aol.com

UNSUBSCRIBE

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:42:44 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Good day Ms Goodwin:
Thank you for the comment.

i'm sure You can endure disappointment for Your cause. However, You are
writing this from a Female's perspective. Disappointment for You is
different than disappointment for me. A triumph for me is entering into a
dialougue with You or any other aware Woman.

A problem, and i'm sure it has been discussed here, is how society looks at
male-Female relationships, in particular marriage. Many Women i have come
in contact with are interested in a submissive man, but only if he is
single.

So what is a married man, who respects and cherishes his Wife, to do?
Especially a man who is respectful of all people, whether male or Female?

How can he develop his submissiveness without going to a professional
Dominatrix? How can he help the cause without enduring disappointmen,
frustration and boredom?

Even martyrs just wanna have fun.
peter



Horrors can be brought to bear that even the most courageous cannot
withstand. Everyone has their breaking point. I hope you never find
out what yours is...I wouldn't wish that on any friend. I know too
much about brainwashing and the limits of human endurance to say with
any certainty that I could endure the ultimate martyrdom. But I *can*
certainly endure disappointment, frustration, and boredom, even
cheerfully, for my cause, and so can you. :)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 07:53:04 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: attitude
Message-Id: <199604240553.HAA13384@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MyKey
Yes "Kangaroo" not "Cangeroo"...
but in both cases : we dont have them.
:)


Bernd,
I am not surprised that you don't have Cangeroos. I believe that you may
be
referring to that wonderful furry marsupial that keeps her baby (a Joey)
in
her pouch.....a Kangaroo

MyKey (from Down Under)

At 09:26 PM 22/4/96 +0200, you wrote:
Hi,
It's probably of no use to you what so ever......
But ATTITUDE is available in Sydney, Australia.
Laura...keep up the good work.

MyKey (From Down Under)


Common answer here in austria to that: No, we dont have cangaroos :)

Bernd


Bernd

the subject "help".

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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:
Re: some personal steps
unsubscribe
help
Re: some personal steps
One more significant woman
Re: unsubscribe
MOTHERS OF LIBERIA
Feminist & Anti-Violence Resources (17K)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 08:38:20 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604240638.IAA13616@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Peter wrote:


i'm sure You can endure disappointment for Your cause. However, You are
writing this from a Female's perspective. Disappointment for You is
different than disappointment for me. A triumph for me is entering into a
dialougue with You or any other aware Woman.

A problem, and i'm sure it has been discussed here, is how society looks
at
male-Female relationships, in particular marriage. Many Women i have come
in contact with are interested in a submissive man, but only if he is
single.

IMHO: A submissive man has to be very strong. A man who adores women is a
lonely man,that is what i had to learn. What does it mean to be submissive
for you? I mean, is appreciating womens power and intellegence already
submissiveness?
It is my experience too, that many women and men love the idea of a
dominant-women-and-submissive-men-relation in their mind but its mostly a
brain game not a lifestyle for *them*.
People who really want to live this believe(?) are rare.
Being submissive just to be submissive means nothing.

So what is a married man, who respects and cherishes his Wife, to do?
Especially a man who is respectful of all people, whether male or Female?


Listen to them. Be a friend. There is always something to do for those you
love.

How can he develop his submissiveness without going to a professional
Dominatrix? How can he help the cause without enduring disappointmen,
frustration and boredom?

Hm, maybe you should try organisations like SMC or Orb and Scepter(
although I dont know both from experience), just to see how these people
see this cause. I received the basic rules and goals from Orb & Scepter and
they (Lady Catherine Wolfe) seem to be a serious org, devoted to the
practice of a dominant-women-with-submissive-men-relation and how to really
live it.
There is a org-list on the femSup-archive
send a mail to: femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com
Subject:archive send resources/org-list

Even martyrs just wanna have fun.

Here I have to disagree.

peter


Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 08:40:05 +0200
From: wwtzu@wooltru.za (Tomasz Zukowski)
TO: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id:

Item Subject: Re: some personal steps
unsubscribe


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 13:26:40 +0200
From: wwtzu@wooltru.za (Tomasz Zukowski)
TO: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: help
Message-Id:

Item Subject: Re: some personal steps



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 06:52:50 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: some personal steps
Message-Id: <199604241352.GAA08687@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

I was in an unhappy marriage with a husband who was incompatable:
obstructive and abusive. I decided I didn't want to live that way, so
I chose to endure uncertainly and trial, including poverty and other
privations, to hit the road with my 2 babies in search of a better
life.

I eventually got my feet under me, and I daresay it hasn't been easy
for me. Doing the right thing is often not easy. I advocate doing the
difficult thing, if that is what you must do to live as you think is
best.

I found a compatable husband, and we have been a happy couple for 11
years, married 9 years as of today. * Happy Anniversary, My Love *
We have forged a powerful bond with a white hot passion and a shared
vision of "how it should be". This passion sometimes includes others,
if we both agree.

Loneliness need not be our lot. There are millions of female
supremacists, male and female, and if one makes the effort one can find
oneself among them. That is what I have done, while maintaining
healthy ties with the rest of the world. I did it step by step, and
whenever possible I made choices that affirmed my desired way of life.
It does require a certain determination and clarity of vision. If you
lack these qualities, then work on developing them.

Speaking of love, I hope you know a decent person will not betray one's
loved ones. Dishonesty and double-dealing is a form of betrayal.

As for fun, it can be tremendous fun to finally feel like a winner in
the game of life. You can't beat the odds unless you try. If there is
something you want for yourself then you have to play for it, and keep
playing until you get good at playing, and keep getting good until you
win. Then keep winning until you can win with ease.

I do know of many vanilla/kink couples who solved the problem by
deciding together to allow the kinky one to cultivate a sidecar BDSM
relationship. As long as this agreement is freely entered into, I
think it's a valid option. But such arrangements have their own
dangers, and not the least of them is the possibility of the sidecar
relationship becoming the primary one. Love and passion are not
governable by reason and a sense of fair-play. What looks good in
theory is in fact fraught with peril. It's not jolly fun for the
vanilla partner to sit home alone time after time...HAVE A HEART!

I personally feel that marriage should mean something, and what it
means is between the wife and husband. What they *agree to* is fine
with me. Few vanilla wives enjoy knowing that their husband is
dissatisfied with the marital sex to such an extent that he needs
outside amusement. That's a fact that husbands know very well, which
is why so many lie and sneak around...they know damn well that their
wives wouldn't like it, and would not approve. Me, with my female's
perspective: I'm on the side of the wives.

I say if you want to act like a single guy, get a divorce. If you want
to act like a devoted married man, get with the program and rediscover
your love for your wife. In short, get on one ding-dong side or the
other.
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 07:25:52 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: One more significant woman
Message-Id: <199604241425.HAA09984@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

Mrs Gertrude Mongella from the United Republic of Tanzania, was
appointed in 1993 by the Secretary General of the United Nations to
serve as the Secretary General of the Fourth World Conference on Women.
Mrs. Mongella, along with others appointed specifically for the
Conference, was contracted by the UN until 31 December 1995, three
months beyond the Conference which took place in Beijing in September
1995. This additional time enabled Mrs Mongella and her team to wrap up
and present the results of the Conference to the 50th Session of the UN
General Assembly. The results were very well received by the General
Assembly and Mrs Mongella was praised and complimented for her work in
achieving such a widely acclaimed outcome.

Upon the expiration of her contract, Mrs Mongella, at the Secretary
General of the UN's request, has agreed to continue to provide advice
to the SG in the area of women and development in light of her
invaluable contribution and long experience. According to this
arrangement, she assists the Secretary General in this regard as and
when required. It is understood that Mrs Mongella will particularly
concentrate on representing the Secretary General in Africa, at
important meetings such as Organization of African Unity (OAU) and any
meetings in that region convened around the issue of women and
development.


This material came from PeaceNet, a non-profit progressive networking
service. For more information, send a message to
peacenet-info@igc.apc.org

--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 10:36:45 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <317E3C7D.B16@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Janice1223@aol.com wrote:

UNSUBSCRIBE
bcom@netrunner.net
unsubscribe--stan___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 07:29:00 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: MOTHERS OF LIBERIA
Message-Id: <199604241429.HAA07598@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

THE FOLLOWING IS A POSTING FOR THE MOTHERS OF LIBERIA WHO ARE HOLDING
A DAILY VIGIL AT THE PARK OPPOSITE THE UNITED NATIONS AT 42ND STREET.
THEY ARE SEEKING OUR HELP....THEY ARE SEEKING OUR SUPPORT!
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO POST TO OTHER LISTS.

We the MOTHERS of Liberia appeal to all Grandmothers, Mothers and
concerned WOMEN, to join us and make the world know once and for all
that we will no longer tolerate the killing, mutilation and torturing
of our children.

We the MOTHERS of Liberia waited patiently for the Abuja Peace Accord
to be signed. We stood patiently and gave it our support. Now the
Accord has been broken. On Saturday, April 6, 1996, renewed civil
war broke out and has been described in all news reports, the "worse
since the beginning of the civil war". There are reports of rampant
raping of young girls, castration of women, and killing of pregnant
women (thus their unborn) for political purposes. Our sons and
grandsons have been drugged and forced to take arms under ruthless
malicious leaders.

We the MOTHERS have joined together to protest the devastion of our
country and to save the lives of whomsoever we can save by our own
efforts. We ask all concerned women to join us at the UN Park and
make the world to understand clearly once and for all, that we the
MOTHERS must call an end to madness.

We are demanding:

A COMPLETE CEASE FIRE
DISARMAMENT OF OUR CHILDREN FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION

We the MOTHERS will not stop our efforts of a 24-hour SILENT
NON-VIOLENT VIGIL until there is a genuine response to the present
emergency situation and genuine permanent peace in Liberia!

JOIN US!
On Monday April 15th starting 9 A.M.
at the PARK opposite the UN at 42 St.

WE URGE ALL PEOPLE OF CONCERN TO JOIN US AND STRENGTHEN OUR EFFORTS
CONTACT 718-647-0347; 718-949-9733; fax 718-778-5464



--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 07:37:10 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Feminist & Anti-Violence Resources (17K)
Message-Id: <199604241437.HAA10399@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

[The following resource section is reprinted from the Sept. 1992 issue
of War Research Info Service, a quarterly newsletter for campus
peace activists (Copyright 1992, University Conversion Project). The
theme of this special issue (Volume 2, #1) is RMasculinity and War/
Feminism and Non-Violence.S For a sample issue, please send $3 to
University Conversion Project, Box 748, Cambridge, MA 02142. To
subscribe, please send $25/yr. Or call (617) 354-9363 for more
information.]

Organizing Resources, Part 1

In keeping with the theme of this packet, this section includes
resources that examine violence against women, the new menUs
movement, feminist perspectives on nonviolence, and sexism on
campus. We compiled these resources from our own library as well
as from the libraries of feminist groups across the country. We were
pleased to discover that the women's peace movement has generated
such a large and thoughtful body of literature for us to draw from.
We have attempted to include resources that offer innovative
insights and concrete suggestions for action.
There is often an assumption that men in the peace movement
are somehow different from other men and therefore exempt from
oppressive behavior and sexism. Unfortunately this is not always
the case. Many female activists have encountered problems with
male dominance. The nonviolent philosophies that guide many
groups can be considered sexist because they fail to treat womenUs
oppression as seriously as other social problems. Theories of
pacifism that fail to address the very real and destructive effects of
socially sanctioned violence against women are deficient. We have
therefore included resources that offer philosophical and procedural
measures to confront sexism within our own ranks.
We have paid special attention to manifestations of sexism on
campus. We have included literature that deals with fraternity and
date rape, the barriers that confront female professors, and the
absence of women from historical texts.
It is our hope that this section will help raise awareness about
the misogyny that still exists in American culture, expose the
common roots of sexism and militarism, and make our actions more
effective and unifying. -Erin Bush


WomenUs Peace Organizations
Women Against Intervention/War Q 3411 W. Diversey St., Chicago,
IL, 60647.
Women Against Military Madness Q 3255 Hennepin Ave. S. #125,
Minneapolis, MN, 55408, (612) 827-5364. Regional womenUs peace
organization.
Women's Action for New Directions Q P.O. Box B, Arlington, MA
02174, (617) 643-6740. Committed to acting to stop the spread of
weapons of mass destruction, clean up the military's toxic waste,
convert from a military to a civilian-based economy, and increase
women's political leadership.
Women's Encampment for Peace & Justice Q 5440 Route 96, ,
Romulus, NY, 14511, (607) 867-5825.
Women Strike For Peace Q 110 Maryland Ave. NE #302, Washington,
DC, 20002, (202) 543-2660.
WomenUs Int'l League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF) Q 1213 Race
St, Philadelphia, PA, 19107, (215) 563-7110.

Anti-Sexism
National Organization for Women (NOW) Q 1000 16th Street, NW,
Washington, DC 20036, (202) 331-0066. Look in the phone book to
get the number and address of the chapter closest to you.
National Organization of Men Against Sexism (NOMAS) Q 798 Penn.
Ave., Box 5, Pittsburgh, PA 15221, (412) 371-8007. National
Network for Men fighting to end sexism and violence against women.
Women's Action Coalition (WAC) Q (212) 967-7711 x9226. Direct
action group similar to ACT UP which started in New York City in
1992, attracting over 500 people to its meetings. Chapters have
already formed in DC, Chicago, Boston, Buffalo, Minneapolis, Santa Fe,
and Paris!
Women's Legal Defense Fund Q (202) 986-2000. Involved in sex
discrimination law suits, including tenure.
Health
Boston Women's Health Collective Q 240A Elm St., Somerville, MA,
02144, (617) 625-0271.
Feminist Majority Fund Q 675 Massachusetts Ave. Cambridge, MA.
02139, (617) 864-0130. Works for womenUs equality and health
(esp. breast cancer).
Feminist Women's Health Center Q 505 W. Georgia St., Tallahassee,
FL, 32301, (904) 224-9600.
WHAM! (Women's Health Action & Mobilization) Q PO Box 733, New
York, NY 10009, (212) 713-5966. Defends clinics; organizes
discussions, direct action, and self-help groups.

Academic Networks
American Association of University Women Q 1111 16th St. , NW,
Washington, DC, 20036, (202) 785-7700.
Association for Women in Science (AWIS) Q 1522 K St., NW,
Washington, DC 20005, (202) 408-0742.
National Women's Studies Association Q University of Maryland,
College Park, MD, 20742-1325, (301) 405-5573.
Students Organizing Students Q 1600 Broadway, Suite 404, New York,
NY 10019, (212) 977-6710. Organizes students for legal abortion, gay
and minorsU rights, and child care.

Anti-Rape and Battering
Nat. Coali. Against Domestic Violence Q (202) 683-6388.
National Org. for Victim Assistance (NOVA) Q 1757 Park Rd., NW,
Washington, DC, 20010. (202) 232-NOVA.
National Women Abuse Prevention Project Q (202) 857-0216.
Resource for information on college dating violence.
University of Wisconsin Student Governments Q (608) 263-3422
(Jennifer Smith,) Mounted a successful campaign for a state law
requiring that new student orientations include information on
sexual assault and campus crime statistics.

Bibliographic References

Anti-Sexist Publications
Changing Men Q 306 North Brooks St., Madison, WI 53715, (608)
256-2565. Focuses on menUs anti-sexism work, including
suggestions for workshops on rape awareness for men.
Challenging Media Images of Women Q P.O. Box 902, Framingham,
MA 01701. Feminist monitor of the media including advertising; free
sample copy available.
Feminist Teacher Q Ballantine 442, Indiana University, Bloomington,
IN 47405, (319) 855-5597. Emphasis on alternative tools for the
classroom.
Listen Real Loud Q AFSC Global Women's Project, 1501 Cherry St.,
Philadelphia, PA, 19102, (215) 241-7000. Focus on struggles of
women internationally.
New Directions for Women Q 108 W. Palisade Ave., Englewood, NJ
07631, (201) 586-0226.
Off Our Backs Q 2423 12th St., NE, Washington, DC 20009, (202) 234-
8072. Political, lesbian-oriented monthly newspaper, with more
poetry and graphics.
On the Issues Q PO Box 3000, Denville, NJ 07834. Radical feminist
analysis.
Signs Q University of Chicago Press, 5720 S. Woodlawn Ave., Chicago,
IL 60637, (312) 702-7700. Women's Studies journal.
Sojourner, 42 Seaverns Ave., Jamaica Plain, MA, 02130, (617) 524-
0415. Feminist monthly newspaper, which originated 20 years ago
in Cambridge, MA.
Women of Power Q PO Box 2785, Orleans, MA 02653, (508) 240-
7877. Quarterly of "feminism, spirituality and politics."


Articles
[Note: Some of the articles listed in this section can be found in the
War Resisters League packet on feminism and militarism. This is an
excellent resource; we recommend it to anyone interested in further
exploring this topic It can be obtained through Ruth Benn at WRL,
339 Lafayette Street, New York, NY 10012, (212) 228-0450.]

Sexual Harassment
[] Barriers to Equality. Report of Women in Computer Science at
MIT. February, 1983. Documentation of sexual harassment and
discrimination against female graduate students in the Area of
Computer Science at MIT. The report gives a good sense of the
difficulties that women in a technical field experience and concludes
with suggestions to men on how to modify their behavior.
[] Organizer's Packet for Actions for Compassion: Stop the War
Against Women Campaign. (1991). Available for $10.00 through the
Fellowship of Reconciliation, P.O. Box 271, Nyack, NY 10690. (914)
358-4601.
Rape
[] Campus Rape Packet. Includes Campus Gang Rape: Party
Games? (1985) which examines the dynamics of gang rape, fraternity
parties, legal remedies for victims, prevention programs, and a list of
resources; and The Problem of Rape on Campus (1978) which
examines the issue and recommends institutional change. Available
for $5.00 through the Center for Women Policy Studies, 200 P Street,
Suite 508, Washington, DC 20036, (202) 872-1770.
[] Crane, Mary. "Rape Avoidance and Resistance." Offers
nonviolent, effective techniques for rape avoidance. Part of the War
Resisters League Packet.
[] Date Rape Prevention: A Videotape for 18-24 Year Olds. A 20
minute VHS tape containing four episodes to facilitate discussion on
date rape prevention. Instructor's manual included. $150.00, from
Planned Parenthood. 2314 Auburn Ave., Cincinnati, OH 45219, (513)
721-8032.
[] Fay, Jennifer and Billie Flerchinger. Top Secret Sexual Assault
Information for Teenagers Only. Available for $4.50 through the King
County Sexual Assault Resource Center, PO Box 300, Renton, WA
98057.
[] Merton, Andrew. "Return to Brotherhood." Ms. September,
1985. pp. 60-64. An exploration of rape and misogyny on campus,
focusing on fraternities.
[] Sanday, Peggy Reeves. Fraternity Gang Rape: Sex,
Brotherhood, and Privilege on Campus. New York: New York
University Press, 1990. An explicit account of sexual practices,
initiations, and socialization in fraternities and other male dominated

campus organizations.

Male Violence
[] Connell, R.W. Gender and Male Power. Palo Alto: Stanford
University Press, 1987. Examines connections between patriarchy
and personal/ institutional violence.
[] Dworkin, Andrea. Women Hating. New Tork: E.P. Dutton and
Co., Inc., 1974. A historical analysis of misogyny. Very provocative.
[] Kirkman, Cecelia. "Militarism and Violence Against Women: The
War at Home." A pamphlet that explores the common roots of the
two issues. Part of the War Resisters League Packet.
[] Leidholdt, Dorchen. "Where Pornography Meets Fascism." WIN
Magazine, March 15, 1983, pp. 18-22. On misogyny, racism and anti-
semitism in pornography.
[] Lord, M.G.. "The Greek Rites of Exclusion." The Nation, July
4/11,1987. Fraternity racism and sexism.
[] Miedzian, Myriam. Boys Will Be Boys: Breaking the Link
Between Masculinity and Violence. New York: Doubleday, 1991.
[] Michalowski, Helen. "The Army Will Make a Man of You." WIN
Magazine. March 1, 1980. Quotes military recruiters, officers, and
veterans. Demonstrates the link between training and violence
against women.

Masculinity
[] Abbot, Franklin, Ed. Men and Intimacy: Personal Accounts
Exploring the Dilemmas of Modern Male Sexuality. Freedom, Cal.: The
Crossing Press, 1990.
[] Bell, Tony and Sam Diener. "Pro-Feminism: MenUs Nonviolent
Approach to Feminism." part of the War Resisters League Packet.
[] Brod, Henry. The Making of Masculinities: The New MenUs
Studies. Boston: Allen and Unwin, 1987.
[] Easler, Bryan. Fathering the Unthinkable: Masculinity,
Scientists and the Nuclear Arms Race. Schocken Press, 1987.
[] Gilmore, David. Manhood in the Making: Cultural Concepts of
Masculinity. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1990.
[] Lake, Patricia. "New MenUs Movement or Old BoyUs Network."
Off Our Backs, April, 1992, p. 14. Are menUs groups pro-feminist or
promoters of masculinity?
[] Messner, M., and Sabo, D., Eds. Sport, Men and the Gender
Order: Critical Feminist Perspectives. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics
press, 1990. Explores the role of male socialization in promoting
violence.
[] Stoltenberg, John. Refusing to be a Man. Portland:
Breitenbush Books, 1988. Thirteen essays questioning masculinity as
we know it.

Women and Military Service
[] Davidson, Liz. "Wimmin and Draft Resistance." Part of the War
Resisters League Packet.
[] De Pauw, Linda Grant. "The Phantom Feminist Conspiracy."
Peacework, July-August, 1991, p. 2. Feminism and combat exclusion
laws.
Nonviolence and Feminism
[] Cohn, Carol. "Wars, Wimps, and Women: Talking Gender and
Thinking War." Collateral Damage: Gender and War. Miriam Cooke
and Angela Woollacott, Eds. Princeton: Princeton University Press,
1992. A great essay on menUs language and attitudes toward
militarism.
[] Cook, Alice and Kirk, Gwyn. Greenham Women Everywhere:
Dreams, Ideas and Action from the WomenUs Peace Movement.
Boston: South End Press, 1983. A review of the Greenham womenUs
opposition to cruise missiles. Person responsibility, direct action,
nonviolence, public debate, and using and confronting the law are
discussed.
[] Enloe, Cynthia. Bananas, Beaches, and Bases: Making Feminist
Sense of International Politics. : Berkeley: University of California

Press, 1989. A provocative look into the exploitive aspects of US
foreign policy. Highly recommended!
[] Enloe, Cynthia. Does Khaki Become You? The Militarization of
WomenUs Lives. Boston: South End Press, 1983. A review of the
history of warfare, describing how militaries have organized and
used women for their needs. Explains why militarism is harmful to
women and should be opposed by feminists.
[] Jeffords, Susan. The Remasculation of America: Gender and
the Vietnam War. Bloomington: Indiana University Press,1989.
[] McAllister, Pam, Ed.. Reweaving the Web of Life: Feminism and
Nonviolence. Philadelphia: New Society Publishers,1982. A collection
of articles, poems, and songs written by women who have organized
to confront violence/militarism. Available for $10.95 from New
Society Publishers, 4722 Baltimore Ave., Philadelphia, PA 19143.
[] Reardon, Betty. Sexism and the War System. New York:
Teacher College Press, 1985. Drawing on the fields of peace,
womenUs, and and world order studies, the author provides an
analysis of the war system and sexism.

Women in Academia
[] Chamberlain, Mariam. "The Emergence and Growth of WomenUs
Studies Programs." The American Woman: 1990-91, P. 318.
[] DuBois, Ellen Carol and Gail Paradise Kelly, Elizabeth Lapovsky
Kennedy, Carolyn W. Korsmeyer, and Lillian S. Robinson. Feminist
Scholarship: Kindling in the Groves of Academe. Chicago: University
of Illinois, 1987.
[] Noble, David F. A World Without Women: The Christian Clerical
Culture of Western Science. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1992.
Examines the origins and the implications of the masculine culture of
Western science and religion. Congratulations to Dr. Noble for having
the courage to ask where the women are.
[] Rhode, Deborah, L.. "Perspectives on Professional Women."
Stanford Law Review, May, 1988, pp 1175, 1179-80. A 1982-82
survey by the American Association of University Professionals of
2,500 higher-education institutions found that despite a decade of
affirmative action, "women have achieved very little." The
associationUs report found the least progress at the most elite
colleges: at Harvard University, women represented only 4.2% of full
professors; at Yale, 3.9%; at Princeton, 3.2%; at Stanford, 2.6%.
This wasn't because of a shortage of women: about one-third of job-
seeking Ph.D. holders were women.
[] Theodore, Athena. The Campus Troublemakers: Academic
Women in Protest. Cap and Gown Press, 1986. A discussion of
discrimination against women in academia and the harassment
women suffer when they try to expose it. Guaranteed to make you
angry!

Organizing and Classroom Guides
[] Brock-Utne, Birgit. Educating for Peace. New York: Pergamon
Press, 1985. Extensive resource for both peace studies and WomenUs
Studies Courses.
[] Koen, Susan, and Swan, Nina. A Handbook for Women on the
Nuclear Mentality: AinUt No Where You Can Run. Norwich, Vermont:
WAND (WomenUs Action for Nuclear Disarmament), 1980. Discusses
the relationship between patriarchy and militarism, and provides
technical information on the effects of radiation on women.
[] Sheehan, Joanne. "Nonviolence: A Feminist Vision and Strategy."
and "Feminism and Nonviolence: A Training Session Agenda." Part of
the WRL Packet (see p. 12).
[] WomenUs Studies Quarterly. Vol. XII, No. 2 (Summer, 1984).
This issue contains reading lists and course outlines for courses on
women and peace, feminist teaching, conflict resolution, womenUs
military history, as well as an extensive bibliography on these and
related topics.

Other Feminist Perspectives
[] Eisler, Riane. The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our
Future. San Francisco: Harper Collins Publishers, 1988. A
controversial new look at evolution, social history and current
beliefs, based on a feminist analysis.
[] Faludi, Susan. Backlash: The Undeclared War Against
American Women. New York: Crown Publishers, 1991. A detailed
analysis of the deteriorating status of women in the U.S. and the
organized forces behind it. A must read for all who mistakenly
believe that feminism was successful at changing the U.S. mindset.
[] MacKinnon, Catherine. "The Male Ideology of Privacy: A
Feminist Perspective on Abortion." Radical America , 1987, pp. 23-
33. Includes an analysis of attitudes toward rape and contraceptive
use .
[] Fight Back! MIT Graduate Student Council, Fall 1992.
Excellent guide to fighting sexual harassment produced by
underground group of MIT women who became disgusted with
'official channels.U Available through MIT WomenUs Studies, (617)
253-8844 or GSC at (617) 253-2195.
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:
Re: World peace? (Was: Re: One Step at a Time)
FW: World peace? (Was: Re: One Step at a Time)
Re: FW: World peace? (Was: Re: One Step at a Time)
Optimists & pessimists. (Was: Re: FW: World peace?)
challenges ahead
Re: challenges ahead
Re: challenges ahead
attitude

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:15:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: World peace? (Was: Re: One Step at a Time)
Message-Id: <199604151415.HAA15986@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jacob (jacob@FastLane.NET) wrote:
Sorry Magnus. War still exists, not doubt. But these wars are minor
compared to the global wars fought earlier in this century. I suspect
more people are murdered and die in auto accidents in the US than are
killed in the wars that are being fought today.

The wars being fought today are minor? They're tending to be localized for
the moment, but hardly minor in terms of the devastation or lives lost. Not
too long ago, Iran and Iraq were at war, with millions of fatalities. The
little brotherly feuding in Bosnia/Serbia has taken quite a few lives, and
isn't terribly different from what caused the world wars, not to mention
having destroyed very cultured cities that even the germans and italians
wouldn't bomb. Ethnic cleansing in Africa, bloodbaths in Cambodia and other
parts of southeast asia, China rattling sabers near Taiwan... The scale and
expense of the mobilization of the US and allies for Desert Storm was on a
par with D-Day, something mostly overlooked because of the lack of casualties
- on 'our' side at least.

The threat of WW III does not loom over our heads as large and threatening
as it used to. The major world powers have their differences, but they
seem to be getting along. There is much more communication than ever in
the history of the world (my Swedish friend). Consider...

The threat isn't the same, and it isn't as visible, but we may actually be
closer to nuclear confrontation. The breakup of the soviet union leaves
several nations there with nuclear capacity, any of which might destabilize
and use the nukes. Even worse, they've been catching smuggling rings who
were transporting weapon grade fissionable materials - and if they're able
to catch some, there's probably more who are uncaught. WW III may not be
started by a super power - but if some religious zealots or other terrorists
manage to detonate a nuke in a major city, it's quite likely that the super
powers will panic and launch. Oh, and let's not forget that with outfits
creating and using their own lethal nerve agents, as was the case in Japan,
biological weapons probably aren't far behind.

You're right. The world is not perfect. War still does exist. It will
probably exist for many years to come. But we are moving closer and closer
to World Peace. Believe it. I have faith in humanity, and in Female Sup-
remacy. I also have patience.

Heh. As a cynic, a believer in the bad side of huMAN nature, and a pessimist,
I do tend to agree that maybe we're getting closer to "World Peace". The
peace of a mausoleum, a quiet tomb that once housed homo sapiens and other
forms of animal life. Presuming that fate is averted, I prognosticate a
less cheerful future, as man's poisoning of the earth's ecosphere stops only
because of a lack of resources as male dominated governments and corporations
strip the earth and mankind is reduced to scavenging, fighting hand to hand
over rusted scrap metal.

The only way out that I see is for something extremely unlikely to happen :
women, with associated "womanly" values and paradigms, begin to have more
influence and control over governments and perhaps more importantly, corpo-
rations. One possible way for this to happen is... female supremacy, or at
least more matriarchal forms of governing local communities, nations, and
corporate entities.

------
Sidebar - Lawless's defination of "womanly values"

In my experience, women tend to have values that differ from those of typical
males. Valueing ecology at least in addition to economy, both for nature's
own sake, and so that their children have a decent world to live in. Having
more of an emphasis on personal relations then professional ones, to where
even professional relationships tend to become personal, placing more import-
ance on family, friendship, and love than on climbing the corporate ladder
for wealth and power. Tolerance for others, noticeably for those of alter-
nive sexualities, less visibly demonstrably in terms of religious or racial
differences. Compassion, nurturing- comforting and aiding others when they
are down, rather than taking advantage of them.

And no, I'm not saying that all women have these values, or that there aren't
men who do. Nor are I going to agree with those who maintain that women are
'superior' because of these things, or for other reasons. Different, and
perhaps better suited to governing or being in control at the moment, simply
to balance and perhaps compensate for masculine influences having had dominion
for far too long. Male competiveness and will for power have led to a present
with the potential for no future, hence my support for a more gynocentric
society.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:01:40 -0500
From: Jacob
To: "'FemSupremacy'"
Subject: FW: World peace? (Was: Re: One Step at a Time)
Message-ID: <01BB2AB2.B5EEEC20@jacob
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chase and Magnus. You both present valid points. Yes, there are still =
plenty of wars going on right now. Yes, many people die horribly in =
these wars. Yes, we are not out of the woods yet. But consider this. =
In the face of crowding populations, dwindling resources, and the =
ongoing crippling of our planets ecosystem, we do not have the imminent =
threat of WW III. Why? Because we're better, stronger, smarter, and =
more enlightened than ever before. We have better and faster =
communication. We are becoming more educated, and the truth sayers =
voice can now be heard above the din of propaganda and misinformation. =
We're moving from a frontier society into a spaceship Earth society. =
And yes, women are playing a greater role in determining our present and =
our future.

I had intended on posting some thoughts entitled "Necessity is the =
Mother of Invention", but this post is as good a forum as any for these =
thoughts. Many would agree that WW II is one of the most horrible =
conflicts in the history of the world if not the most. It was a war of =
attrition on a global scale. Devastating loss of lives and resources. =
But out of this massive global conflict came the seeds of a golden =
future for our world.

During my college days it was very common for my professors to point out =
that much of what I was learning was a direct result of WW II. =
Operations Management and Operations Research are the management =
techniques and specific math relating to maximizing resources. Most, if =
not all, of the techniques and math were a direct result of WW II. =
There was a massive and immediate need to maximize materials, produce =
goods, and improve technology in everything from aerodynamics to canning =
food. Granted it was for the war effort, but most of the techniques and =
technologies were easily translated into peace time uses. But there was =
a greater, more important need that sowed the seeds of Female Equality =
and eventually Female Supremacy.

As I said earlier, WW II was a war of attrition. Early on the military =
services were picking the cream of the crop for manpower to fight the =
war. As time went on they became much less picky, draining America's =
young and middle aged men at an alarming rate. But what about the home =
front? Who was going to build the engines of war, pack the food, run =
the businesses, keep America going? It was the women of course. Rosie =
the Riveter. SuperWoman. Wonder Woman. Women built the bombs, the =
ships, the planes. Women stepped up and took over the duties that were =
normally filled by men during peace time without hesitation. They were =
recognized for their efforts, but only in passing. "Thanks, girls. You =
can go home now."

Johnny came marching home, flushed with victory and pride, his male ego =
swelling. Rightly so. I don't believe in male bashing. Men fought and =
died to protect our country, our ideals, our women and children. They =
came home expecting the status quo, and they got it. Women went home. =
Most of them. They welcomed their husbands, sons and fathers with open =
arms and a sigh of relief. Women do love their men. But the seeds of =
Female Equality were sown. =20

The cat was out of the bag. Women got a taste of their own strength and =
abilities. They liked it. For a little while women were content to =
stay home, maintain the household, bear and raise children. It was only =
natural. Repopulate and rebuild. Continuation of the species. =
Besides, the men were traumatized, re-acclimating themselves to peace =
time, their egos large but fragile. In the fifty years since the war =
women and men have changed. The male ego is still large and fragile, =
but not nearly so. Women are taking more and more positions of power in =
business and government. Women in the workforce is the rule rather than =
the exception. Women can and do survive on their own in today's =
society. I feel this is more than a trend towards Female Equality, =
Female Equality is a fact. =20

Female Supremacy. Not a fact, but not a fiction. A concept, an idea, a =
lifestyle and a choice that many woman and men are giving serious =
consideration. Numbers? Don't have any. Don't care. I don't need the =
weather man to tell me it's raining. Maybe Female Equality is as far as =
it will go, maybe as far as it should go. But in my life, lifestyle, =
thoughts and actions, Female Supremacy is a reality. That is as much as =
I can expect.

On a personal note I'd appreciate some discussion or email from =
optimistic, non-cynical observers of Female Supremacy.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:00:36 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: FW: World peace? (Was: Re: One Step at a Time)
Message-ID: <317280B4.3A58@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jacob wrote:

Chase and Magnus. You both present valid points. Yes, there are still plenty of wars going on right now. Yes, many people die horribly
in these wars. Yes,

I had intended on posting some thoughts entitled "Necessity is the Mother of Invention", but this post is as good a forum as any for these
thoughts. Many woul

During my college days it was very common for my professors to point out that much of what I was learning was a direct result of WW II.
Operations Management

As I said earlier, WW II was a war of attrition. Early on the military services were picking the cream of the crop for manpower to
fight the war. As time wen

Johnny came marching home, flushed with victory and pride, his male ego swelling. Rightly so. I don't believe in male bashing. Men fought
and died to protec

The cat was out of the bag. Women got a taste of their own strength and abilities. They liked it. For a little while women were content to
stay home, mainta

Female Supremacy. Not a fact, but not a fiction. A concept, an idea, a lifestyle and a choice that many woman and men are giving serious
consideration. Numb

On a personal note I'd appreciate some discussion or email from optimistic, non-cynical observers of Female Supremacy.
jacob wrote--female involvement in wwII;-it is true that something was
started with rosie the riveter,the wacs,waves,etc. but in 1951 i
witnessed women in the army that were in total control of their
environment and the men around them,including yours truly. I believe
female confidence started in the armed forces and permeated from there
to civilian life styles. I first learned to respect and obey women at
that juncture in my life. If you look at the record of female world
leaders such as: Thatcher,Meir,Neru,and on and on it is obvious that
they were tougher, and more determined than their more numerous
couterparts.It is indecisiveness and lack of conviction that leads to
conflict. There will always be differences but if you understand the
consequences
of your actions you would not be so eager to confront. Female leaders
have understood this and had the courage to act..Stan
___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 96 19:33:46 EDT
From: magnus.thelander@mailbox.swipnet.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Optimists & pessimists. (Was: Re: FW: World peace?)
Message-Id: <199604151733.TAA08377@mailbox.swip.net

On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:01:40 -0500 you wrote:

Johnny came marching home, flushed with victory and pride, his male ego
swelling. Rightly so. I don't believe in male bashing. Men fought and died to
protect our country, our ideals, our women and children. They came home

I don't see any reason for anyone to be proud of having had to
fight a war. It may be necessary, and we all owe the men and women
from all over the world, who sacrificed a lot, our deepest gratitude,
but I doubt that many of them feel pride in having killed other
humans. I know, I wouldn't.

If the European democracys also hadn't been so lenient in their
handling of the German dictatorship in its early stages, there
probably wouldn't have been a second world war. War came as a result
of the failure of the international community to cooperate in keeping
Germany in check. Further, the international community contributed to
the German desire for revenge by imposing severe demands on Germany in
the peace treaty after the first world war. The "winners" wanted
revenge, and made sure they got it, and then they payed a huge price
21 years later. Fortunately they learned from their previous mistakes,
when the peace treaty after the second world war was drafted, and
aided Germany in rebuilding its infra-structure and economy while
keeping a close eye on the country's military reconstruction.


On a personal note I'd appreciate some discussion or email from optimistic,
non-cynical observers of Female Supremacy.

Don't you know? A pessimist is an optimist with experience ;).

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmoe, Sweden

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:17:32 -0300
From: yazand
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: challenges ahead
Message-Id: <199604160317.AAA07264@sv6.batelco.com.bh
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

one of the main challenges facing the superiority of women is the training
process , for both Females and males . my believe is that female domination
lies at the heart of the issue as far as training is concerned.

training of fems. should start at early teens , up to college stage
, where young FEMS. are still open to new ideas , hard minded and demanding
, i believe interested groups should help in assigning subjects ( slaves )
of older ages of males to interested FEMS.by doing this the following
purposes will be met :

i) the young Female ( teen or at college ) will look down at males from
early stages.
ii) by giving their mistress all the sexual satisfaction , the young
mistress will be free from running after boys at her age , and thus she will
be always in charge .
iii) older subjects will be trained to respect FEMS.
iv) the idea could be carried further , whereby , the financial needs of a
young mistress can be meet by pooling resources from her subjects , and
thus at this early stage in her life she has no finacial burdens .



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:39:17 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: challenges ahead
Message-ID: <3173E955.6061@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

yazand wrote:

one of the main challenges facing the superiority of women is the training
process , for both Females and males . my believe is that female domination
lies at the heart of the issue as far as training is concerned.yazand
wrote "training" if you are only interested in femsupremacy as a SLAVE
why don't you just find a dominatrix? The concept is much more serious
and complex than you getting your jollies from some young women.
Education and retraining is certainly relevant to the ultimate goal
without satisfying your perverse phantasy. stan--- training
of fems. should start at early teens , up to college stage
, where young FEMS. are still open to new ideas , hard minded and demanding
, i believe interested groups should help in assigning subjects ( slaves )
of older ages of males to interested FEMS.by doing this the following
purposes will be met :

i) the young Female ( teen or at college ) will look down at males from
early stages.
ii) by giving their mistress all the sexual satisfaction , the young
mistress will be free from running after boys at her age , and thus she will
be always in charge .
iii) older subjects will be trained to respect FEMS.
iv) the idea could be carried further , whereby , the financial needs of a
young mistress can be meet by pooling resources from her subjects , and
thus at this early stage in her life she has no finacial burdens .

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:05:18 -0300
From: yazand
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: challenges ahead
Message-Id: <199604170305.AAA24164@sv6.batelco.com.bh
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

if the text is read carefully the training means the education of young
WOMEN not of slaves , and my idea was intended as mean for a final higher goal
At 02:39 PM 16-04-96 -0400, you wrote:
yazand wrote:

one of the main challenges facing the superiority of women is the training
process , for both Females and males . my believe is that female domination
lies at the heart of the issue as far as training is concerned.yazand
wrote "training" if you are only interested in femsupremacy as a SLAVE
why don't you just find a dominatrix? The concept is much more serious
and complex than you getting your jollies from some young women.
Education and retraining is certainly relevant to the ultimate goal
without satisfying your perverse phantasy. stan--- training
of fems. should start at early teens , up to college stage
, where young FEMS. are still open to new ideas , hard minded and demanding
, i believe interested groups should help in assigning subjects ( slaves )
of older ages of males to interested FEMS.by doing this the following
purposes will be met :

i) the young Female ( teen or at college ) will look down at males from
early stages.
ii) by giving their mistress all the sexual satisfaction , the young
mistress will be free from running after boys at her age , and thus she will
be always in charge .
iii) older subjects will be trained to respect FEMS.
iv) the idea could be carried further , whereby , the financial needs of a
young mistress can be meet by pooling resources from her subjects , and
thus at this early stage in her life she has no finacial burdens .

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 21:56:27 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: attitude
Message-Id: <199604181956.VAA06947@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Does anybody know if this magazine called attitude is aviable in europe or
on the net?
I just heard about it, it sounds interesting but I dont know much more
about it.
Is it worth a try?

Bernd

the subject "help".

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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 57

Today's Topics:
Re: Do the right thing
Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Female supremacists in unexpected places.
Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: post message
Re: Domination Principles
Re: Do the right thing
A bunch of posts coming
Forwarded post #1
Forwarded post #2
Forwarded post #3
Forwarded post #4
Forwarded post #5

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 00:13:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-Id: <199604290413.AAA00303@norway.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura,
I've often thought that my personal feelings about Female dominance
(not Female Domination) would be more accurately labeled Female Centric, or
Gynococentric (the later is actually in the dictionary; but is that Gynoco..
or is it Gyneco.. ? Don't remember.) My personal feeling is that this
labelling better reflects the Female as the center of society, which She is
even now, and also subsumes Her possible domination of the male as a
perogative, but does not demand it if that is not Her individual style or
situation.
By the way thanks for being here; You and Dee-Ann are very important
to the survival of this group as Women generally are in the life of groups,
and I for one would like to extend my sincere appreciatation. (I don't mean
you others aren't important ... you are. But the Ladys are especially
important.

zbobz


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 00:56:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)
Message-Id: <199604290456.AAA04676@norway.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ladies
Pardon me for intruding (just this one time), but I don't really see
what the issue is. Any interaction between a Woman and man is inherently
sexual in nature, and patriarchal religions quite aside, payment for sex of
any kind seems like any other transaction, with both parties receiving
benefit for consideration. I'm really sticking my neck out here, but I
suspect whatever the issue is, it isn't what is actually being said by
anyone. (That's something I've noticed in some other interchanges also: not
just Female ones that is).
With respect to what's actually being said, let me provide a little
male insight, which may in this particular issue have some significance. It
is difficult coming to grips with the reality of ones predisposition towards
submitting to Women ... in my particular case it has spanned three decades
and has been problematic to say the least ... and isn't done with yet. From
experience I can assure You that at any particular time in dealing with this
reality a male may be capable of only a range possible behaviors (self
limits). There are points at which paying for a scene with a pro-dom is not
only the best he can do but it may also be beneficial; in deed it may be his
ultimate limit. On the other hand it seems highly desireable in the final
analysis to find a stable relationship in which to explore Female domination
(I don't really see how anyone could argue with that). It's a big world ...
lots of rooms for all sorts of things. Personally I like apples AND
oranges, ... each has it's place.

I know I can't win here but was driven to add my two cents anyway.
With trepidation, zbobz.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 08:23:06 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Female supremacists in unexpected places.
Message-Id: <199604290622.IAA23667@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You talked about the above mentioned subject. It made me curious.
Would any of the members of this list, who do live in a female
supremacy relationship, be willing to share with the list how and
where they met. People meet in the most fascinating ways and places.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 08:18:21 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: post message
Message-Id: <199604290617.IAA23083@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:43:00 -0700, Antonio wrote:

So, if you are a reductionist (as I am), you will realize that political power
grows out of the barrel of a gun; guns are coercive instruments which are built

A gun kills equally well when the trigger is pulled by a woman.

I don't believe you can keep a society oppressed forever through
the use of force. Sooner or later it will decay and crumble, if it
doesn't have the support of the majority.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 08:27:08 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Domination Principles
Message-Id: <199604290626.IAA24150@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 20:24:11 -0700, Laura Goodwin wrote:

Consider the analogous situation of the lion trainer in a case with
six or seven lions. He would not even represent a minor challenge to
them physically, but because of their training he is able to push them
around. The very same principles can be applied to men.

This is certainly true, and I have applied this in my life. Women can
train men *if they know how* to be compliant, bu the trick is getting
women organized and prepared to rule.

It has probably been mentioned here before, but women do have the
ultimate power. They usually raise our children. If the mothers knew
how, it would be easy to train the boys to respect and be subservient
to the girls, if it's done from an early age. Unfortunately, most
mothers raise their children according to the expectations and
specifications by the existing patriarchy.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 07:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do the right thing
Message-Id: <199604291449.HAA17647@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote, responding to Dee-Ann's advice:
Exactly. I endorse everything Dee-Ann says here.

Femsupremacy: the femdom world has some overlapping population, as does
the feminist, but femsupremacy is distinctive. In femdom, the emphasis
can still be on the male, but in femsupremacy the woman is at the center.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Methinks that depends quite a bit on your definition / view of female sup-
remacy, Laura. For some it may well be true, where for them it's a spiritual
matter more than anything else, and for some brands of female dominance with
an emphasis on supremacy, an' probably for those who think that all women
should be in charge of, and are superior to, all men. Then again, many of
the men claiming this are actually fetishizing/fantasizing it, looking for
a sexual relationship of a particular kink - in which case the male is still
arguably at the center.

It also is, can be, a political or philosophical view, where any number of
possible centers might exist, including the ecosphere/Gaia or humanity as a
whole. Some people might think that the only hope for stopping Gaia's rape
is for women to be more in charge of things, or that long term survival of
the human race / civilization depends on power being taken away from the age
old patriarchal system with its entrenched value systems.

For some extreme moderates, it even seems to be more a concern for creating
equity between the genders, righting social and economic imbalances that
exist - certainly a worthy goal, but not really a matter of 'femsupremacy'
according to many.

Then there's those for whom disdain and/or hate seem to be at the center of
-their- views of femsupremacy, including some who've been active members of
this list in the past, who maintain that men should be seen and not heard,
that all men should be subservient to the will of all women with no rights
or freedoms save for those given them. Much more traditional a supremacist
credo, a mirror image of certain other beliefs, and no, I certainly wouldn't
agree with those who said that woman was at the center of their femsupremacy,
and I doubt that many here on the list would either. Sadly, this is one of
the negative images commonly found in the general public's minds, and in the
media - that femsupremacy is simply another extreme form of male bashing.

An' no, I don't think that many here agree with that last one, and I know that
Laura doesn't. But I thought I'd use a minor quibble as a launching point for
some non-FemDom oriented thoughts. ;-

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:43:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: A bunch of posts coming
Message-Id: <199604300843.BAA00240@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 934

The mailing list became so active lately that it crashed the list.
There are 16 posts that I am going to forward to the list one by one.
Please, if something is better left for e-mail, then respond in e-mail
instead of directly to the list. That's if you want to continue to
have a mailing list, but cannot afford to send me money or equipment
to upgrade what's processing the mail.

Also, as an example, one of the posts I'm going to forward (I'm
forwarding all of them, regardless of content) quotes a lengthy post
and just makes a comment about the person being a fan of something.
Ask yourself, was this trip really necessary?

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Forwarded post #1
Message-Id: <199604300849.BAA00255@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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From mykey@ozemail.com.au Mon Apr 29 02:04:40 1996
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: mike Lee
Subject: Re: Some Personal Observations

Hey! A Frank Zappa fan, welcome aboard.

MyKey

At 10:22 AM 28/4/96 -0700, you wrote:
Friends,

The OHSU computer system is having fits, so please forgive me if
this post is not exactly relevant or up-to-date. Many of the recent
posts have dealt with FemDom rather than FemSupremacy issues, and I
thought I'd add one person's perspective to this thread. Please keep in
mind that I am very new to the "scene" and have dealt with it in only one
area. Also, some of my files were wiped out so I will not attempt to
cite exact quotes and may even misidentify authors.
Since I am a "newbie" with the local bdsm community, I feel very
emphatic with those folks who are having trouble fitting in. As has been
said often in this list it takes time, especially if you are a male
submissive. Female dominants have the "pick of the litter", so expect to
have a long wait. Still, if these feelings are so important to you, the
time you spend will be worth it. Meanwhile, what can you do to make
things happen?
For starters, show up! (thank you Laura and c.s). One person
related a bad experience with the local bdsm group, and maybe he does
indeed live in a place full of jerks. But more than likely his inherent
shyness, coupled with an initial meeting with some insensitive people,
turned him off. Get used to it, bucko, you're gonna get shot down
frequently. Keep trying, and be honest; state what you desire and what
you are willing to give. Here in Portland it seemed like people were
lining up to give me counseling, advice, and comfort; I soon understood
what the terms "bdsm community" and "leatherfolk" meant. If you're
sincere, people will help you out even if they don't have a personal
interest in you.
Once you've got your feet on the ground, show some flash!
Contribute to the Community in any way you can. Remember Laura's posts
on her organizational efforts? Sure, very few of us have the ability
to do that much, but you have to start somewhere. Volunteer to help
set up parties, work on your local group's newsletter, plan and
organize events, or whatever. People will notice, and then they may
start thinking of you in other contexts.........;-
As for the ProDomme issue, I have dealt with only one. Even
though she knew that I was in a relationship and had "no commercial
potential" (thank you, F. Zappa), she went out of her way to help me
out and cheer me up. I don't know if she has sex with her clients or
not, but if she is in any way representative of the Pros in general
they are a very good group.

Peace,

Barry

___________________________________________________________________
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For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Forwarded post #2
Message-Id: <199604300856.BAA00277@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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From mykey@ozemail.com.au Mon Apr 29 02:04:52 1996
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 19:04:30 +1000 (EST)
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: mike Lee
Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)

I am not in a steady relationship with a lady nor am I one of those
fortunate husbands married to a wonderful lady such as Laura or Tasha
(Green:with envy). I have however formed wonderful relationships with ladies
that would be considered Professional Doms. From my experience (& maybe I
have been lucky)I have always had some form of sex toward the end of my
training session. Now to cover an earlier topic, with one particular Lady,
every second Wednesday I would visit my tutor, and the lady in question
would put me to work. Whether it was cleaning the windows, doing handyman
jobs or washing the dishes I would attend her needs with joy, I was happy
that I was usefull to her, I expected NO sex of any form from her in return,
even on these days, I obviously worked to her satisfaction because
invarioubly I was granted some form of release, sexually, and certainly not
instigated by me, even though I was happy to recieve it.

Thats my two bobs worth

MyKey

At 04:06 AM 28/4/96 -0700, you wrote:
None of the ones I have known personally had sex (as men
understand it) with any male client. Sex was more likely
something done with a 'steady' partner (of either gender).

OK, but how do you define "sex"?

There are in fact huge numbers of Pro Doms who make it their business
to sexually gratify their customers in sessions, usually by
masturbating the guy while he's in bondage, using vibrators, dildos,
etc. or by ordering/allowing him to masturbate himself while kneeling
or grovelling, and wearing his fetish stuff. Isn't this "sex"?
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:00:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Forwarded post #3
Message-Id: <199604300900.CAA00287@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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From mykey@ozemail.com.au Mon Apr 29 02:05:04 1996
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 19:04:44 +1000 (EST)
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: mike Lee
Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)

I am inclined not to enter into this debate, especially as it involves two
ladies that I admire the most in this forum.. It would seem to me that we
are entering into the realms of semantics.

MyKey

At 11:13 PM 28/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
-- [ From: TashaStar * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------

Date: Sunday, 28-Apr-96 04:06 AM

From: Laura Goodwin \ Internet: (lalaura@ix.netcom.com)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com \ Internet: (femsupremacy@renaissoft.
com)

Subject: Re: No sex...NOT! ;)

None of the ones I have known personally had sex (as men
understand it) with any male client. Sex was more likely
something done with a 'steady' partner (of either gender).

OK, but how do you define "sex"?

*I* define "sex" as sexual intercourse. (penetration)
*I* define a sexual act as anything that involves intimate/genital contact
and/or exchange of body fluids.

There are in fact huge numbers of Pro Doms who make it their business to
sexually gratify their customers in sessions, usually by masturbating the
guy
while he's in bondage, using vibrators, dildos, etc. or by
ordering/allowing
him to masturbate himself while kneeling or grovelling, and wearing his
fetish
stuff. Isn't this "sex"?

True. No doubt. Huge numbers of them.
But self masturbation while kneeling or groveling is not having sex with the

Mistress. Is it "sex" if a guy masturbates by himself in the bathroom
while reading magazines ?? Nope. Not in *my* book.

Tasha


--
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
~Tasha Star~ Tasha@shadow.net
***NEW-NEW-NEW-WEBSITE***
see my *under construction site at:
http://www.shadow.net/~tasha
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^
Ethereal Dominance
18524 N.W. 67 Avenue Suite# 325
Miami, FL. 33015 (305) 534-1555
^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^"^

___________________________________________________________________
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For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Forwarded post #4
Message-Id: <199604300905.CAA00298@catherine.renaissoft.com
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From mykey@ozemail.com.au Mon Apr 29 02:04:47 1996
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 19:04:40 +1000 (EST)
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: mike Lee
Subject: Re: No Sex Professionals

Bad luck fellas.

MyKey

At 09:16 PM 28/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
In a message dated 96-04-28 12:41:53 EDT, you write:

My confidence in my ability to make the kind of relationship I need has
received a devastating blow.

I think the Goddess sent me this opportunity and I blew it. I wonder if she
will give me another chance?



I had a simliar feeling about a possible relationship with a Domme. I fear I
blew it too.

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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Forwarded post #5
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From mykey@ozemail.com.au Mon Apr 29 02:04:44 1996
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To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: mike Lee
Subject: Re: Fwd: post message

Hear, Hear.

MyKey

At 12:52 PM 28/4/96 -0700, you wrote:
weaker women can truly dominate bigger, stronger men is by either:

1) Force of numbers -- two or more average women overpowering one
average man
2) Actual hypnosis
3) Mind-altering drugs
4) Where the female is actually bigger and stronger, which is very rare

In most situations, then, true "Female Supremacy" is impossible because it
relies
purely on the WISHES and DESIRES of the parties; not on necessity. For
such a
scenario to REALLY work requires the normal physical power equation to be
reversed!

---------------------------
While I certainly agree that if Women were larger than men it would be a lot
easier for them to assert their will, I suspect there are other mechanisms
that could work pretty effectively too. Some examples follow:

(1) Economic coersion: She controls the purse, and he knows that his
economic well being depends on Her good will.

Consider: Your Lady boss tells you in no uncertain terms what She expects
and that your (good) job is on the line. She weighs 101 lbs, you weigh 195.
What do you do?

(2) Political coersion: She calls upon the legally constituted enforcement
agency to enforce Her will.

Consider: The ability of the members of the ruling class to impose their
will on others regardless of size is legend.

(3) Conditioning: In accordance with well established principles of
conditioning he has learned to respond to Her in a compliant manner.

Consider the analogous situation of the lion trainer in a case with six or
seven lions. He would not even represent a minor challenge to them
physically, but because of their training he is able to push them around.
The very same principles can be applied to men.

___________________________________________________________________
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For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:
Re: Respect
Re: Respect
RE: Back to basics
RE: Respect
Re: Respect
Re: Respect
Re: Respect
Re: Respect
Amazon Web Site
Re: Thoughts

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, bcom wrote:

tom. iwould not go as far as you,and find it difficult to fully
understand the slave concept.

I've got no argument with this, Stan, as different men express their
feelings toward FemSupremacy in different ways. Even the women in our
community have varying expectations.

it is unsecure men that
ridicule those women that are strong enough to stand up for what they
believe,but just as guilty is the woman who is ashamed and denies who
she is for fear of being ridiculed.

Please rethink this idea. Women may be born innately superior, but our
society does its level best to convince them otherwise, and all too often
succeeds. My deepest respect goes out to all the women who have freed
themselves of this conditioning and taken steps toward reaching their
full potential. But I cannot blame those in shame and denial, because it
is unrealistic to expect one woman to take on the entire patriarchal
system. Instead, I believe that all of us should reach out to these
women and teach them that there is another way, or to be more accurate,
many other ways.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:09:24 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-Id: <199604101309.GAA14403@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

I cannot blame those in shame and denial, because it
is unrealistic to expect one woman to take on the entire patriarchal
system. Instead, I believe that all of us should reach out to these
women and teach them that there is another way, or to be more
accurate, many other ways.

Barry

This is well said by you, Barry. The Patriarchal P.R. machine is
relentless, and has had it's effect on my kids in spite of my careful
upbringing. My daughter screams when she sees a bug. My son is
squeamish about them too, but he doesn't *scream*. For the record, I
am not afraid of bugs and neither is their father, so it's a mystery
where this phobia came from.

At school, my daughter was being harassed by some boys on a daily
basis, and I didn't even hear about it from her or from the school
until it had been going on for a month...finally she complained to me.
I couldn't understand why she put up with it, why her teacher did
nothing, why the boys picked on her in the first place. I had to demand
that the principal step in, to chastise both the do-nothing teacher and
the bully boys. What ever happened to classroom standards? Oh, I
forgot, allowing bullies a free hand in class, on the playground, in
the streets, and in the corporate boardrooms *is* our standard. :(
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:21:00 -0500
From: Jack Curtis
To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
Subject: RE: Back to basics
Message-ID: <01BB26B5.CD310AE0@ppp16.coredcs.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB26B5.CD41D3C0"

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Why am I getting all this BS. I vote for women, but I am not, repeat not, involed with feminine supremacy.

----------
From: williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu[SMTP:williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 1996 12:10 PM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Back to basics


On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Jack Clotworthy wrote:
All of this is in Compuserve HSX-200 forum, Variations II Library. Check the
chrono library list. They were added recently. The files are titled "Tales
from Eden II". Hope this helps. If not, let me know.

OK, it doesn't :^) Many of us do not have CI$ accounts. Is there an
anonymous ftp server where we could get at the file?

the subject "help".



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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:21:35 -0500
From: Jack Curtis
To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
Subject: RE: Respect
Message-ID: <01BB26B5.CFA5B460@ppp16.coredcs.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB26B5.CFA5B460"

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Stop with the feminine supremacy. I have nothing to do with the group.

----------
From: Bernd Angerer[SMTP:Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 1996 3:31 PM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect




In a message dated 96-04-04 23:41:16 EST, everyones favorite Mark
wrote:

Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any.


And just what is YOUR definition of a slave, Mark? I'm sorry to have to
say
that I deleted your defense of yourself, so I don't have exact quotes.
However, you thanked those 'lurkers', one of whom was myself, who had
come
to
your defense about your recent posts, prefering to give you the benefit
of
the doubt in this dispute. What you have apparently failed to appreciate
though, is that myself and probably most ( all? ) of your other defenders
ARE
SLAVES. Is this to be our reward? More flamebaiting? I certainly regret
my
earlier defense if this is your attitude. Because for me, submission to
my
mistress, slavery if you will, is not the act of a person who lacks in
self
respect, or who has no choice in the matter. Slaves can, and often do, '
vote with their feet '. Still, there is great satisfaction in being able
to
say to your Mistress that you exist to please Her, to serve Her needs, to
obey Her wishes above all. It is to me the ultimate expression of my love
for
Her, to suffer for Her pleasure and demonstrate through that suffering
just
how deeply felt my love, respect and need for Her is. And to know what it
is
that motivates my service to Her causes my Mistress to return that
respect
in
equal measure, to appreciate the gift to Her that my submission is, that
She
may use to guide and improve _both_ our lives, as She sees fit. For there
can
be _no_ dominance or submission without the ultimate exchange of trust
and
respect between partners. I truly hope that if you learn nothing else
here,
it is that fact.

Tom


- to Love, Honor and OBEY


In a relation of trust and fairness it finally starts.:)
Thank you Tom



___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



Bernd

the subject "help".



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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:13:00 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-ID: <316BCFFC.7B9A@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, bcom wrote:

tom. iwould not go as far as you,and find it difficult to fully
understand the slave concept.

I've got no argument with this, Stan, as different men express their
feelings toward FemSupremacy in different ways. Even the women in our
community have varying expectations.

it is unsecure men that
ridicule those women that are strong enough to stand up for what they
believe,but just as guilty is the woman who is ashamed and denies who
she is for fear of being ridiculed.

Please rethink this idea. Women may be born innately superior, but our
society does its level best to convince them otherwise, and all too often
succeeds. My deepest respect goes out to all the women who have freed
themselves of this conditioning and taken steps toward reaching their
full potential. But I cannot blame those in shame and denial, because it
is unrealistic to expect one woman to take on the entire patriarchal
system. Instead, I believe that all of us should reach out to these
women and teach them that there is another way, or to be more accurate,
many other ways.

Peace,

Barry

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:23:39 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-ID: <316BD27B.7955@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, bcom wrote:

tom. iwould not go as far as you,and find it difficult to fully
understand the slave concept.

I've got no argument with this, Stan, as different men express their
feelings toward FemSupremacy in different ways. Even the women in our
community have varying expectations.

it is unsecure men that
ridicule those women that are strong enough to stand up for what they
believe,but just as guilty is the woman who is ashamed and denies who
she is for fear of being ridiculed.

Please rethink this idea. Women may be born innately superior, but our
society does its level best to convince them otherwise, and all too often
succeeds. My deepest respect goes out to all the women who have freed
themselves of this conditioning and taken steps toward reaching their
full potential. But I cannot blame those in shame and denial, because it
is unrealistic to expect one woman to take on the entire patriarchal
system. Instead, I believe that all of us should reach out to these
women and teach them that there is another way, or to be more accurate,
many other ways.

Peace,

Barrybarry; i totally concur with your last comments. education is the
foundation of all positive change. with that in mind,can we not use this
format in a more positive role than what i have experienced thus far.
the childish
baiting is a tragic waste of talent. thanks--stan
___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:53:59 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-ID: <316BD997.F04@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:

I cannot blame those in shame and denial, because it
is unrealistic to expect one woman to take on the entire patriarchal
system. Instead, I believe that all of us should reach out to these
women and teach them that there is another way, or to be more
accurate, many other ways.

Barry

This is well said by you, Barry. The Patriarchal P.R. machine is
relentless, and has had it's effect on my kids in spite of my careful
upbringing. My daughter screams when she sees a bug. My son is
squeamish about them too, but he doesn't *scream*. For the record, I
am not afraid of bugs and neither is their father, so it's a mystery
where this phobia came from.

At school, my daughter was being harassed by some boys on a daily
basis, and I didn't even hear about it from her or from the school
until it had been going on for a month...finally she complained to me.
I couldn't understand why she put up with it, why her teacher did
nothing, why the boys picked on her in the first place. I had to demand
that the principal step in, to chastise both the do-nothing teacher and
the bully boys. What ever happened to classroom standards? Oh, I
forgot, allowing bullies a free hand in class, on the playground, in
the streets, and in the corporate boardrooms *is* our standard. :(
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".laura, this is called breeding,or inbreeding would be more suitable. you
can take a pointer pup into the field for the first time and it will try
its best to locate a bird,so on and on are there examples. the trick is
to re-breed and that could take generations, but i believe it has
already begun.look to yourself as an example. with respect.--stan

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:11:14 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
CC: bcom@netrunner.net
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-ID: <316BDDA2.17F7@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:

I cannot blame those in shame and denial, because it
is unrealistic to expect one woman to take on the entire patriarchal
system. Instead, I believe that all of us should reach out to these
women and teach them that there is another way, or to be more
accurate, many other ways.

Barry

This is well said by you, Barry. The Patriarchal P.R. machine is
relentless, and has had it's effect on my kids in spite of my careful
upbringing. My daughter screams when she sees a bug. My son is
squeamish about them too, but he doesn't *scream*. For the record, I
am not afraid of bugs and neither is their father, so it's a mystery
where this phobia came from.

At school, my daughter was being harassed by some boys on a daily
basis, and I didn't even hear about it from her or from the school
until it had been going on for a month...finally she complained to me.
I couldn't understand why she put up with it, why her teacher did
nothing, why the boys picked on her in the first place. I had to demand
that the principal step in, to chastise both the do-nothing teacher and
the bully boys. What ever happened to classroom standards? Oh, I
forgot, allowing bullies a free hand in class, on the playground, in
the streets, and in the corporate boardrooms *is* our standard. :(
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".Laura, this is called inherant behavior and though i am not a
psychologist i understand that this behavior must be unlearned, and this
takes time and patience. with respect--stan

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:34:19 -0700
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Amazon Web Site
Message-Id: <199604110130.SAA18061@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello everyone...

If you haven't already done so, check out this amazon web site. The women
are incredible.

http://www.globalmark.com/amazon/


Mark Gajb

Wicked men obey from fear; good men, from love.
-Aristotle

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:22:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199604110522.WAA02782@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 4326

Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

Here in the U.S.A. it is virtually impossible to make any effective
changes in the statewide or Federal political system. Think about
it....when was the last time you voted for a candidate on any grounds but
the fact that (s)he was the lesser of two evils? If you want a clue as
to why this is so, check out the reportage of the jockeying that goes on
to win the major parties' nominations. Issues are relegated to a minor
status, and the hopefuls' chances are judged by how much money they have
raised or can hope to raise. Until we have meaningful campaign finance
reform in America our candidates will continue to be bought by the
wealthy corporate power structure.

Well, then, one thing to do then is to locate a group pushing for
campaign finance reform in the US and help it with money or time.
Feel free to list contact information for such groups.

Reform in this area is not a hopeless cause. Here in Oregon we passed a
public initiative (the Legislature, of course, would not touch the issue)
limiting individual and corporate contributions to $100 per candidate. If
your state has the initiative or referendum process, start gathering
signatures! Meanwhile join or contribute to an organization fighting for
campaign finance reform, like Common Cause. Meanwhile, do the standard
things like demanding reform in letters to your representatives or to
your newspaper.

Excellent idea. How do people contact Common Cause?

Also, as someone else suggested recently, remind the dear Republicans
about their term limit in their lovely "Contract with America."
Remind them loudly and publically. Elections are coming up.

I have an idea for Canadians as well. Start pushing for Sentate
reform, or removal. All the Senate seems to be there for is to give
jobs to pets of the folks in power. It either needs an actual
_purpose_, or to stop existing as a waste of taxpayers' money.

For Brits, I understand that Britian is one of the worst countries in
the western world for having virtually no women in high political
office. Even Iran has more women in office than the UK (factoids
gotten from the Canadian Newsworld channel). Try to help out the
campaigns of the more competent women running for office. Is it that
no women are running, that the women who're running don't look
competent, or that people aren't willing to vote for women?

An area where you can have real influence is the local level. Pick an
issue where you feel women are getting particularly shafted and find out
what local authority is responsible for dealing with it. If you think
the school system is gyno-unfriendly (a tip o' th' black leather porkpie
to Laura) run for your school board, or do volunteer work for a
canditate who shares your views. Are women treated unfairly by the
banking, insurance and utility agencies? Many regulatory boards are
chosen by elections, or if they are appointive lobby your local
legislator to appoint you (it's not that big of an issue to them since
there are so many appointments to be made, so if you and your friends
mouth off enough you may be surprised by the results). The individual
decision is up to you, but you get the idea.

One thing happening in Canada is that optional single-sex classes are
becoming more popular in public schools. It isn't an all day thing,
simply certain classes (like science and math) are offered where girls
can choose to take a girl only class. "Studies show" that the early
teen years are where the worst self-esteem problems tend to emerge.
The idea behind the girl only classes (mostly offered in Junior High
schools and middle schools) is to remove a bit of the gender
competition. Girls who do fine in mixed-gender classrooms have the
option of taking the mixed classes.

You can also volunteer with organizations that help out single
parents, rape crisis centers, the homeless, etc. There is a LOT folks
can do to help in their community.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:
Re: (As if it really mattered)
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: (As if it really mattered)
Re: feminism??
Thoughts
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Respect
Re: feminism??
Re: Thoughts
Re: feminism??
Re: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Re: Respect
Re: feminism??

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:13:13 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: (As if it really mattered)
Message-Id: <199604051913.LAA12212@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

Just dump him. It's a big world. He can find other people to pester.

What a sensible idea! I really *like* that idea! :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:25:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604052025.MAA00462@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 976

David Gavinberg wrote:

It isn't that I don't like the topic, it is that I am trying to learn why
people think the way they do...

Considering the huge lecture I just threw out at someone else, and
considering your recent comments:

1. posting to say that people here have mental problems
2. posting repeated snide comments about people here doing
nothing but sit at their computers
3. going on about how we don't understand what "feminism" is even
though this isn't a "feminist" list, it's a "female supremacy"
list

I'm just going to say this once. If you're baiting, quit it. If
you're not, learn a better style of _discussion_. One more snide
comment and you're out of here.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:14:30 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604052014.MAA16311@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2636

David wrote:

I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their computer
instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much narrows it
down to everyone on this mailing list.

I found this mailing list by looking up feminist on Netscape. If this
isn't a feminist mailing list, why is under feminist?

I am paid decent bux to sit on my computer (actually it sits
where I want it to) and shoot, move and communicate. That's a big
part of what I do. I daresay many others here make their livings
using a computer. It happens. And very few of us use microwaves
or toasters to post to this or any list: mostly it's computers.
Fact of life. Computers, telephones and TV are rapidly merging
with each other and with Real Life.

Many of us are also 'out there' actively promoting or at least
abetting Women On Top in a number a ways, some of them novel or
even unique. I certainly do. (See the 'Is ... God a Woman?' post: I'm
part of all that). I work mainly for and with women in almost all
aspects of my public and private life: no big deal, no 'lifestyle'
emphasis (well, usually not ;] ), I just go out and do it the same
way I recycle and rescue lost animals and visit the sick because
it seems like the thing to do.

'Why is [this list] under feminist?'
I dunno: ask Netscape.

Feminism (in its many forms) is certainly one of the core
components of whatever Female Supremacy (in _its_ several forms)
is. (The other two, in this writer's opinion, are Goddess or Wise
Woman spirituality -in its several forms, some within traditional
forms, some revivals, some totally new- and -especially it seems for
males- woman-defined BDSM. I would add a lot of Green to this mix.)
Now, that's my highly subjective -self-serving, even- take on it.

Laura's statement that FS and Feminism have common ground (for now)
may sum it up best.

Perhaps FS is post-Feminist? Does it really matter?

Dee is right in saying there is no 'correct' view of FS- it's not
a doctrine or a dogma or an ideology. Rather it's a way of looking
at a lush garden -weeds, fruits, nuts and all- of woman-centered
possibilities.

Peace :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 13:07:48 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: (As if it really mattered)
Message-Id: <199604052107.NAA20443@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1988

Laura wrote (in part):

Special note: Be very careful about assuming something like that I'm a
hard, unintelligent, and blindly fanatical individual who has no sense
of humor and will see no reason, never giving a guy a chance. Be
*real* careful about that...

News flash: This is not the unconditional love club, and Dee-Ann is
not your mommy. You are not *Mr. All-Men*, Mark, and the criticism you
have drawn is generally not leveled at the other men on the list,
because they generally don't deserve it.

This is in fact a very safe place for those who

1. are reasonably civil and sincere,
2. actually have read the 'Welcome' file and stay on topic,
3. represent their opinions as theirs only, and
4. do their homework.

Laura, Dee and others have allowed me to express really _retro_
stuff without hindrance because I have a care for makes up civil
and constructive dialog. I am totally clueless about much of what
is said here -I missed the 70s and much of the 80s altogether, not
to mention vanilla sex the way grownups do it- so I (usually) tread
softly and try to stay awake. It helps.

Oh, yeah, we have all lived such sheltered lives that we need *you* to
warn us about real life.
Experience far outweighs deliberation.
Many people here have many miles (or clicks) on them, and have
done their share of overcoming and surviving, paying their dues,
learning life's hard lessons (all the cliches- why not) and have
come out a tad wiser than when they went in. Hats off especially
to those of you who are raising or have raised families. That's
the Big One, IMHO, underline H, and meself being one who has not.

Thank you and Amen.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 20:24:06 -0500
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID: <960405202405_506835744@mail06

In a message dated 96-04-05 12:55:57 EST, you write:

Lonely...?

It isn't that I don't like the topic, it is that I am trying to learn why
people think the way they do...

David

To learn you listen. I seem to recall you saying we should stop feeling sorry
for ourselves, get away from our computers and go outside... that seems like
ridicule to me. Not a very good way to learn.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 20:25:06 -0500
From: Steve55260@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Thoughts
Message-ID: <960405202506_369917288@emout09.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-05 12:19:33 EST, you write:

Subj: Re: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Date: 96-04-05 12:19:33 EST
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
Resent-from: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

In a message dated 96-04-04 23:41:16 EST, you write:

Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any.

Don't worry. Us slaves don't respect you either.

Ditto.

By the way (BTW) Laura mentioned a welcome file for this list and an AOL
on-line magazine called Flesh and Blood, does anyone know where can I find
them?

Also; no matter what your living arrangements are there are always chores to
be done which are not the most glamorous, and seem to continually need to be
done over and over again.

Several people on this list have asked what people are doing to advance the
caise of female supremacy. It seems to me that alot is being done just in
exsisting and living well in the lifestyle which we have chosen. That
combined with letting people know what that livestyle is shows others how FS
is better and the fact that it can work well. Politically seeking there are
two things that stand out in my mind. The first is that the most oppressive
laws and restrictions are local. The second is that someone considered
important once said, "All politics is inheritantly local". He was talking
about government at the federal level.

Steve ;)

Would you vote for me if I ran for President of the US?



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 21:09:38 -0800
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604060506.VAA11036@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

David... you wrote,

I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their computer
instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much narrows it
down to everyone on this mailing list.

I found this mailing list by looking up feminist on Netscape. If this
isn't a feminist mailing list, why is under feminist?


How can anyone casually surfing the net for topics they have no true
interest in, criticize those of us who are very committed to what we believe
in. I *HAVE* done something with my life. I have a tremendously successful
career and a terrific life. By the way, you need spelling lessons and
grammar lessons. Now you have something to work towards in your life.






___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



Mark Gajb

Wicked men obey from fear; good men, from love.
-Aristotle

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 21:13:01 -0800
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604060509.VAA11137@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, David Gavinberg wrote:
I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their computer
instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much narrows it
down to everyone on this mailing list.

I found this mailing list by looking up feminist on Netscape. If this
isn't a feminist mailing list, why is under feminist?

David,

Your assumption that people on this list are doing nothing other than
sitting on their butts in front of a computer screen is offensive.
For all we know, you are doing nothing more.

In recent posts, Laura has described what she is doing to further Female
Supremacism and to defend sexual and social freedom so that the climate is
less hostile toward FS ideas.

Dee-Ann is clearly putting in a lot of time moderating this list (more than
usual lately, it would appear).

Others on this list have talked about what they are doing and have
offered suggestions for others.

I myself have been active in my local pansexual BDSM group (the Black Rose
in Washington, DC) since its inception nearly 9 years ago and have made
assisted in social/educational FemDom activities as time has permitted.

To answer your question, this list might be considered feminist because FS
and feminism have common short-term goals. However, female supremacists
tend to want to take the idea of female empowerment farther than many
feminists. How much farther is a valid topic for debate on this list.

I fear you may have wandered in cyberspace to somewhere where you are
not comfortable. Please feel free to ask *polite* questions.

Jonathan


Good one Jonathan.








___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



Mark Gajb

Wicked men obey from fear; good men, from love.
-Aristotle

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 01:22:10 -0500
From: Maidsrvnt@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Respect
Message-ID: <960406012209_185728927@emout06.mail.aol.com


In a message dated 96-04-04 23:41:16 EST, everyones favorite Mark wrote:

Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any.


And just what is YOUR definition of a slave, Mark? I'm sorry to have to say
that I deleted your defense of yourself, so I don't have exact quotes.
However, you thanked those 'lurkers', one of whom was myself, who had come to
your defense about your recent posts, prefering to give you the benefit of
the doubt in this dispute. What you have apparently failed to appreciate
though, is that myself and probably most ( all? ) of your other defenders ARE
SLAVES. Is this to be our reward? More flamebaiting? I certainly regret my
earlier defense if this is your attitude. Because for me, submission to my
mistress, slavery if you will, is not the act of a person who lacks in self
respect, or who has no choice in the matter. Slaves can, and often do, '
vote with their feet '. Still, there is great satisfaction in being able to
say to your Mistress that you exist to please Her, to serve Her needs, to
obey Her wishes above all. It is to me the ultimate expression of my love for
Her, to suffer for Her pleasure and demonstrate through that suffering just
how deeply felt my love, respect and need for Her is. And to know what it is
that motivates my service to Her causes my Mistress to return that respect in
equal measure, to appreciate the gift to Her that my submission is, that She
may use to guide and improve _both_ our lives, as She sees fit. For there can
be _no_ dominance or submission without the ultimate exchange of trust and
respect between partners. I truly hope that if you learn nothing else here,
it is that fact.

Tom


- to Love, Honor and OBEY

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:01:47 -0500 (EST)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Did I say I wasn't sitting here, I think not...
I do use my computer a lot, but I don't have anything to prove.
"Feminist DO?"

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Laura
Goodwin wrote:

You wrote:

I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their
computer instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much
narrows it down to everyone on this mailing list.

I certainly includes you then. :)



--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".





the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:05:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

I think what I proposed was too broad. How about this...What about
our present political systems (since we're from multiple countries
here) can see see need to be changed? Then, what changes should be
made? How can these changes be reasonably accomplished? Please
include what country you're referring to in your posts.

Here in the U.S.A. it is virtually impossible to make any effective
changes in the statewide or Federal political system. Think about
it....when was the last time you voted for a candidate on any grounds but
the fact that (s)he was the lesser of two evils? If you want a clue as
to why this is so, check out the reportage of the jockeying that goes on
to win the major parties' nominations. Issues are relegated to a minor
status, and the hopefuls' chances are judged by how much money they have
raised or can hope to raise. Until we have meaningful campaign finance
reform in America our candidates will continue to be bought by the
wealthy corporate power structure.

Reform in this area is not a hopeless cause. Here in Oregon we passed a
public initiative (the Legislature, of course, would not touch the issue)
limiting individual and corporate contributions to $100 per candidate. If
your state has the initiative or referendum process, start gathering
signatures! Meanwhile join or contribute to an organization fighting for
campaign finance reform, like Common Cause. Meanwhile, do the standard
things like demanding reform in letters to your representatives or to
your newspaper.

An area where you can have real influence is the local level. Pick an
issue where you feel women are getting particularly shafted and find out
what local authority is responsible for dealing with it. If you think
the school system is gyno-unfriendly (a tip o' th' black leather porkpie
to Laura) run for your school board, or do volunteer work for a
canditate who shares your views. Are women treated unfairly by the
banking, insurance and utility agencies? Many regulatory boards are
chosen by elections, or if they are appointive lobby your local
legislator to appoint you (it's not that big of an issue to them since
there are so many appointments to be made, so if you and your friends
mouth off enough you may be surprised by the results). The individual
decision is up to you, but you get the idea.

I'm looking forward to hearing other viewpoints on this issue!

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:49:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, David Gavinberg wrote:

Did I say I wasn't sitting here, I think not...
I do use my computer a lot, but I don't have anything to prove.
"Feminist DO?"

David, I believe that the problem here is that you made the blind
assumption, (as you do not know any of us), that all we do is sit in front of
our computers. Even though I have only been on this list a short time, I
have seen long periods of quiescence. Sure, maybe we're all busy posting
to other Lists and NGs, living off delivery pizza and ruining our eyes,
but it could also be that we are out in the "real world" trying to effect
some of the changes we write about.

I personally view the time I spend on this list as being an investment in
education, and feel that I have learned as much here as I have during the
equivalent time spent at College or University. And the "Professors" are
far more interesting besides!

Do you have anything constructive to teach? If so, please let the rest
of us learn it. If not, keep an open mind and you may be surprised at the
amount and quality of the knowledge available here.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:39:41 -0500
From: Janice1223@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Message-ID: <960406153940_185964370@emout07.mail.aol.com

UNSUBSCRIBE

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:04:06 -0500
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-ID: <960406170405_370381168@emout06.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-06 01:48:16 EST, you write:



In a message dated 96-04-04 23:41:16 EST, everyones favorite Mark wrote:

Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any.


And just what is YOUR definition of a slave, Mark? I'm sorry to have to say
that I deleted your defense of yourself, so I don't have exact quotes.
However, you thanked those 'lurkers', one of whom was myself, who had come
to
your defense about your recent posts, prefering to give you the benefit of
the doubt in this dispute. What you have apparently failed to appreciate
though, is that myself and probably most ( all? ) of your other defenders
ARE
SLAVES. Is this to be our reward? More flamebaiting? I certainly regret my
earlier defense if this is your attitude. Because for me, submission to my
mistress, slavery if you will, is not the act of a person who lacks in self
respect, or who has no choice in the matter. Slaves can, and often do, '
vote with their feet '. Still, there is great satisfaction in being able to
say to your Mistress that you exist to please Her, to serve Her needs, to
obey Her wishes above all. It is to me the ultimate expression of my love
for
Her, to suffer for Her pleasure and demonstrate through that suffering just
how deeply felt my love, respect and need for Her is. And to know what it is
that motivates my service to Her causes my Mistress to return that respect
in
equal measure, to appreciate the gift to Her that my submission is, that She
may use to guide and improve _both_ our lives, as She sees fit. For there
can
be _no_ dominance or submission without the ultimate exchange of trust and
respect between partners. I truly hope that if you learn nothing else here,
it is that fact.

Tom


- to Love, Honor and OBEY

bravo.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:27:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Caitlin Chapman
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

I can't figure out why these people, who don't like what the topic of
discusion is, just keep hanging around and bitching about it.

One of life's annoying little mysteries... :)


I'd say it's either a masochistic tendency they might not even be aware
of, or a desire to appear "normal" to others around them. Perhaps both.

This reminds me of those people I know who go on and on about what an
evil thing some TV shows (esp. tabloids and talk shows) are. They'll go on
giving me one example after another about things they don't like about a
particular show. I can understand it if want to watch 1 or 2 episodes of
Jerry Springer, it will help you explain what you're against. But I'm
talking about these people who obviously watch these things every day.

OK, let's say for example Jerry's next show is about bestiality,
something most people would say is abnormal. And we'll take 2
hypothetical viewers who say this is one horrible talk show.

Viewer A can't stand the idea of bestiality but he watches anyway, he's
just a glutton for punishment. That's the masochistic tendency.

But Viewer B likes the idea and so he watches the show. He doesn't want
his family or friends to feel he's abnormal at all, so he blasts Jerry
and the producers for sinking to such a low level, so his preference
stays a secret and everyone will keep thinking he's "normal".

Of course I can't speak for any 1 person and why they're here. But even
if you "shouldn't" be here, you had to seek out this mailing list and
send in your request to subscribe, so you had some reason to subscribe.
Personally, I don't feel it's worth my time to be here if I didn't agree
with the FS ideals. If I take the time to read opposing view points in
the paper, then I do it on my own. If I didn't believe in FS, I'd be
surrounded by those who do and that makes things uncomfortable if not worse.

Well that's my $.01 (the other of my 2 cents went to the IRS)


[aitie!




the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:
Re: Where I'm coming from (Repost: Gynosupremacy)
unsubscribe
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Back to basics
Re: Back to basics
Re: Back to basics
Re: Back to basics
Re: Respect
Re: Back to basics
Re: Respect

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:18:52 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Where I'm coming from (Repost: Gynosupremacy)
Message-Id: <199604071018.UAA17590@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Laura,

I bow down on hands and knees.

MyKey=20

At 05:27 PM 3/4/96 -0800, you wrote:
Well, here it is again. :) Those who are too familiar with this essay=20
may feel free to delete. This was written for the SMC newsletter, and=20
was never intended for a "general" audience. FYI, SMC is a=20
Goddess-worship church for femdoms. =20

GYNOSUPREMACY
By Laura Goodwin, Hps.


My name is Laura and I'm a...gynosupremacist. I am a dominant=20
woman who has been a Priestess of the Goddess-centered Service of=20
Mankind Church since 1983. I know what belonging to SMC means to me:=20
that I am part of a community of kindred spirits who love to see=20
females in positions of authority, even the highest position possible,=20
the throne of heaven. I personally can see no reason to limit women's=20
opportunities on earth, especially under the rule of the Goddess.
When a woman becomes Queen, Prime Minister, CEO or Poet Laureate,=20
I rejoice. Among everyday people, when I become aware that a woman of=20
my acquaintance is head of her household and has earned the loyalty and=20
respect of her family, I'm glad to see it. Naturally, I feel a kinship=20
with any woman who is dominant sexually, as I do with the men and women=20
who adore dominant women.
My husband is a masochist, and he enjoys being my submissive=20
"slave". We love one another, we respect each other, he is in no way=20
abused, but I do demand and expect that he obey me. I am the queen of=20
my own little sphere. My husband, my lovers, my playmates and friends=20
all look to me for leadership and guidance. My children are expected=20
to obey me, and I have earned their respect and love.
I have structured my whole life in such a way that I enjoy the=20
responsibilities and privileges of power. I have taken it upon myself=20
to help save the human race, one person at a time if necessary. My=20
activities as a Priestess and Leatherfolk advocate have led to my being=20
honored and offered authority positions, which I like. I'm comfortable=20
with the demands of leadership.
There are millions of women who are suited for dominance; not=20
just sexual, but social dominance as well. They do not need to be put=20
down and kept in their place; they need to rise to their natural place=20
in life. They have mental and spiritual needs which are not satisfied=20
by the current social superstructure. The present society still favors=20
males over females, encouraging males to be domineering, while=20
discouraging and handicapping females. If males were truly naturally=20
dominant over females, there would be no need to "stack the deck". The=20
fact that overwhelming pressure must be maintained to keep women down=20
is clear evidence that women don't just naturally stay down.
When I see a masochistic woman who limits her "master's" power to=20
the bedroom, demanding to be respected at all times as a human being, I=20
feel glad. When submissive men demand their right to have their=20
sexual and psychological needs and respected, complaining that they're=20
tired of being forced to pretend they are macho when they're not, I am=20
overjoyed. I can't tell you how much that means to me. Yes,=20
submissives have rights, and I am a staunch defender of those rights. =20
A little respect is good for everyone, and it's good for the soul to=20
show respect to other human beings. I hope we all respect ourselves=20
enough to give ourselves lovers who value us.=20
I want the sexes to have full equality, and a level=20
playing field. So? What does that make me? Is there a word for=20
someone who likes it when women and men enjoy equal advantages? Yes,=20
a Feminist. =20
When I'm in the company of a fully evolved dominant man, I can=20
admire him and enjoy his company, considering him to be a brother,=20
unless he's one of those who honestly believes that women are inferior=20
to men... you know, a Male Chauvinist. =20
A Female Chauvinist is someone who thinks that women are superior=20
to men, with men still being the norm. I am not a female chauvinist. =20
I believe in the innate equality of the sexes. For me, this is not an=20
article of faith, but a manifest fact of life. There are submissive=20
men and women. There are dominant women and men. There are men and=20
women who are both dominant and submissive. This proves nothing. =20
This, plus enough for a token, will get you a ride on the subway. =20
In the Goddess-worshipping SMC church, there is no conflict=20
between flesh and spirit; they are one. We advocate practicing S/M as=20
a spiritual discipline, as well as a hot erotic practice. The=20
Priestess is an agent of the Goddess, and can represent the Goddess=20
incarnate in ritual. Every woman is the queen of her own hearth and=20
home. The men in our church can be Priests, and embody the God, (our=20
Goddess's consort) during ritual. Our religion is that the Goddess is=20
the supreme deity, mother of all, even other Gods. Because we=20
celebrate "the Female over the Male" (namely the Goddess over the God),=20
we may be called gynosupremacists, until someone thinks of a better=20
word. =20
One woman acquaintance told me she doesn't like the word because=20
it reminds of terms like "White Supremacist" . I said, "Well you call=20
yourself a sadomasochist, and some people in the D/S community don't=20
like that word for similar reasons." Anybody can say they don't like a=20
word. Still, gynosupremacists need at least one word to distinguish=20
themselves from those who don't care who's on top, and those who prefer=20
men on top. We believe in and live a female-dominant lifestyle. You=20
don't have to be into S/M to be a gynosupremacist, but if you are then =20
you are a sadomasochistic gynosupremacist, like me. =20
Now I'll tell you what gynosupremacists aren't: we aren't=20
sexists. All men and women are equal under the Goddess. She is the=20
mother of us all, and loves us all equally. In my religion, each=20
person is divinely authorized to be an agent for the Goddess or God. =20
We assert that the body, the world, and life itself is sacred,=20
deserving respect and preservation, and yes, I do want to see those=20
values reflected in my daily life.
We see the beauty and divinity of both sexes. We assert the=20
divinity of the female. This serves to balance the overwhelmingly=20
pro-male propaganda that this patriarchal social system insists on=20
force-feeding everyone. We demand that the Goddess's right to equal=20
time, and woman's right to fair deal be respected. Gynosupremacy is a=20
perfectly reasonable philosophy and way of life. Those of us who=20
practice it demand the right to live and love in the way that seems=20
best for ourselves, free from undue interference.
Woman is on the rise, under the watchful, approving gaze of the=20
Goddess. This is for the benefit of all people. This is my belief,=20
and if you believe as I do then you've got a sister in me.

=A9 1994 L.Goodwin



--=20
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:35:51 -0500
From: Keith Reeves
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id: <199604072035.PAA07415@mail1.i1.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

unsubcribe me please
*********************************************************************
* *
* Keith, Tina and Kim Reeves kreeves@i1.net *
* "The lady" and her chasers! *
* St. Ann, Missery (MO) *
*********************************************************************

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:09:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Caitlin,

I respect your opinion...I don't know if you saw a previous message I
wrote a while back, but I said I am on this mailing list to learn more
about feminism, for a paper I am writing.

To everyone else,

I apologize if I offended anyone, over the weekend I realized I may have
been rude in some of my comments. I hope to stay on this mailing list
and contribute with the knowledge I know. I do stick to my opinion
on some of the things I wrote, but some others like...assuming people
sit by their computers all day, and believing everyone has a mental
problem were not something I should have written.

To be honest, I have written a few things in the past, and no one
responded, I figured if I wrote something offending, I was sure to get a
response. I hope no one hates me...

David






the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 96 02:46:00 EDT
From: magnus.thelander@mailbox.swipnet.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604080338.FAA14546@mailbox.swip.net

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:41:48 -0500 (EST) you wrote:

I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their computer
instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much narrows it

You shouldn't talk to yourself. That's not healthy. Go out and do
something with your life instead.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmoe, Sweden

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:06:55 -0500
From: Amy Ruth Baker
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID: <31692B8F.5FA8@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David Gavinberg wrote:

I think all of you that consider themselves feminist should look up in
the dictionary what the meaning is...

It isn't women bashing men, and feeling they should have the power.

It is women wanting the same rights as men.

If you people don't get the right meaning, this revolution will never go
anywhere.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, and go outside, away from your
computer, and do something about it.

David
David, I think it's not necessary to limit "feminism" to one narrow meaning. Not all feminists
draw the line at equal rights, and that doesn't mean they're not feminists. Personally, I
define feminism as living and looking at the world (my life, other events) with a conscious
awareness of a woman's perspective and gender dynamics. It happens that once you start looking
at gender as an "essential" quality, you can put together very reasonable position that women
are superior in many ways. I don't think that entails men-bashing, at least not necessarily,
and I for one would rather spend my energy on more constructive, interesting endeavors than
detailing men's many failings.

Re. your last paragraph: what would you have these feminists do, away from their computers?
And what are you doing, away from your computer?

Amy

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:49:36 -0500
From: Amy Ruth Baker
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID: <31693590.43E5@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David Gavinberg wrote:

Did I say I wasn't sitting here, I think not...
I do use my computer a lot, but I don't have anything to prove.
"Feminist DO?"
I suppose you *do* have something to prove or you wouldn't be going on
and on here, now would you? And you still haven't made the very
important distinction between "feminist" and "femsupremacy" have you?

Amy





the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:53:12 -0500
From: Amy Ruth Baker
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID: <31693668.1D12@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

you wrote:

To be honest, I have written a few things in the past, and no one
responded, I figured if I wrote something offending, I was sure to get a
response. I hope no one hates me...

David

I guess I just think that it's wrong to bait people. We're all on this
list because we're interested in sharing our ideas. Didn't your
grandmother or someone ever tell you "You catch more flies with honey
than with vinegar?"


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:13:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Amy Ruth Baker wrote:

you wrote:

To be honest, I have written a few things in the past, and no one
responded, I figured if I wrote something offending, I was sure to get a
response. I hope no one hates me...

David

I guess I just think that it's wrong to bait people. We're all on this
list because we're interested in sharing our ideas. Didn't your
grandmother or someone ever tell you "You catch more flies with honey
than with vinegar?"


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

Amy,
I did try to use "honey", but no one was interested. I probably
shouldn't have used "vinegar", but it got a response. I wasn't even sure
if my comments were going to everyone...

David

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 12:17:33 -0500
From: Amy Ruth Baker
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID: <31694A2D.43BD@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Amy,
I did try to use "honey", but no one was interested. I probably
shouldn't have used "vinegar", but it got a response. I wasn't even sure
if my comments were going to everyone...

David

David, Okay. So run a test message -- you don't need to offend people
to get a response. But enough out of me. You get the point? Amy

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 96 13:19:16 PDT
From: Jack Clotworthy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Back to basics
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

All I can think of when I read the recent rash of flaming posts is that this
too shall pass. And I hope it does quickly for there is tremendous heat but
very little light being generated. Perhaps I view the subject with a lot
less interest in the abstract and much more emotion than some of the
protagonists. I'm interested in how femsupremacy 'plays out' in every day
life. Perhaps my interest is too narrow for this list but I've read the SMC
Manifesto perhaps 50 times and each time learn a bit more from that
inspirational tract. Priestess Laura's frequent essays are instructive but I
appreciate even more the personal reflections on her domestic situation and
those posted by others. Most recently, reading the Eden II series available
from Compuserve's HSX-200 forum library, brings each of us 'back to basics'.
It all starts there - in one manifestation or another - to those of us drawn
to femsupremacy.

Especially moving was the author's beautiful dedication of a pivotal chapter
in the story to Priestess Laura. That goal is shared by many!

jay
-------------------------------------




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:28:48 -0400
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Back to basics
Message-ID: <960408232847_371792595@mail02.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-08 13:57:15 EDT, you write:

Perhaps my interest is too narrow for this list but I've read the SMC
Manifesto perhaps 50 times

Most recently, reading the Eden II series available

where (or how) can I get copies of this info?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 96 09:16:50 PDT
From: Jack Clotworthy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Back to basics
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

where (or how) can I get copies of this info?<<

All of this is in Compuserve HSX-200 forum, Variations II Library. Check the
chrono library list. They were added recently. The files are titled "Tales
from Eden II". Hope this helps. If not, let me know.

jay
-------------------------------------

E-mail: jclotwor@access.digex.net



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:13:52 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Back to basics
Message-Id: <199604091413.HAA25360@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

I've read the SMC Manifesto perhaps 50 times

Most recently, reading the Eden II series available

where (or how) can I get copies of this info?

Check the SMC web page:
http://www.darkside-goddess.org

Also peek at my web page in progress:
http://www.netcom.com/~lalaura/priestess.html
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:31:40 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-Id: <199604092031.WAA21312@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit




In a message dated 96-04-04 23:41:16 EST, everyones favorite Mark
wrote:

Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any.


And just what is YOUR definition of a slave, Mark? I'm sorry to have to
say
that I deleted your defense of yourself, so I don't have exact quotes.
However, you thanked those 'lurkers', one of whom was myself, who had
come
to
your defense about your recent posts, prefering to give you the benefit
of
the doubt in this dispute. What you have apparently failed to appreciate
though, is that myself and probably most ( all? ) of your other defenders
ARE
SLAVES. Is this to be our reward? More flamebaiting? I certainly regret
my
earlier defense if this is your attitude. Because for me, submission to
my
mistress, slavery if you will, is not the act of a person who lacks in
self
respect, or who has no choice in the matter. Slaves can, and often do, '
vote with their feet '. Still, there is great satisfaction in being able
to
say to your Mistress that you exist to please Her, to serve Her needs, to
obey Her wishes above all. It is to me the ultimate expression of my love
for
Her, to suffer for Her pleasure and demonstrate through that suffering
just
how deeply felt my love, respect and need for Her is. And to know what it
is
that motivates my service to Her causes my Mistress to return that
respect
in
equal measure, to appreciate the gift to Her that my submission is, that
She
may use to guide and improve _both_ our lives, as She sees fit. For there
can
be _no_ dominance or submission without the ultimate exchange of trust
and
respect between partners. I truly hope that if you learn nothing else
here,
it is that fact.

Tom


- to Love, Honor and OBEY


In a relation of trust and fairness it finally starts.:)
Thank you Tom



___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:10:09 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Back to basics
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Jack Clotworthy wrote:
All of this is in Compuserve HSX-200 forum, Variations II Library. Check the
chrono library list. They were added recently. The files are titled "Tales
from Eden II". Hope this helps. If not, let me know.

OK, it doesn't :^) Many of us do not have CI$ accounts. Is there an
anonymous ftp server where we could get at the file?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 17:41:44 -0400
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Respect
Message-ID: <316AD998.680A@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bernd Angerer wrote:




In a message dated 96-04-04 23:41:16 EST, everyones favorite Mark
wrote:

Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any.


And just what is YOUR definition of a slave, Mark? I'm sorry to have to
say
that I deleted your defense of yourself, so I don't have exact quotes.
However, you thanked those 'lurkers', one of whom was myself, who had
come
to
your defense about your recent posts, prefering to give you the benefit
of
the doubt in this dispute. What you have apparently failed to appreciate
though, is that myself and probably most ( all? ) of your other defenders
ARE
SLAVES. Is this to be our reward? More flamebaiting? I certainly regret
my
earlier defense if this is your attitude. Because for me, submission to
my
mistress, slavery if you will, is not the act of a person who lacks in
self
respect, or who has no choice in the matter. Slaves can, and often do, '
vote with their feet '. Still, there is great satisfaction in being able
to
say to your Mistress that you exist to please Her, to serve Her needs, to
obey Her wishes above all. It is to me the ultimate expression of my love
for
Her, to suffer for Her pleasure and demonstrate through that suffering
just
how deeply felt my love, respect and need for Her is. And to know what it
is
that motivates my service to Her causes my Mistress to return that
respect
in
equal measure, to appreciate the gift to Her that my submission is, that
She
may use to guide and improve _both_ our lives, as She sees fit. For there
can
be _no_ dominance or submission without the ultimate exchange of trust
and
respect between partners. I truly hope that if you learn nothing else
here,
it is that fact.

Tom


- to Love, Honor and OBEY


In a relation of trust and fairness it finally starts.:)
Thank you Tom

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

tom. iwould not go as far as you,and find it difficult to fully
understand the slave concept. i am an ardent admirer of
strong,personally autonomus women who are dominant in their
relationships. i am most comfortable with women who are powerful both
physically and emotionally. i am attracted to very tall well muscled
women that are in control but size is not as important as attitude. it
is with great satisfaction that i have learned my preferences not not so
unusual. talking with others of similar interest is comforting,but this
slave thing is a little too far out for me. it is unsecure men that
ridicule those women that are strong enough to stand up for what they
believe,but just as guilty is the woman who is ashamed and denies who
she is for fear of being ridiculed. i believe that with physical
superiority comes emotional,not the reverse.---stan
Bernd

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:
Re: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Re: (As if it really mattered)
feminism??
Re: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Re: feminism??
Re: (As if it really mattered)
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: Thoughts
Re: feminism??
Re: feminism??
Re: Is the Christian God a Woman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 01:13:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Message-Id: <199604050913.BAA00135@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 10922

Mark Bedell wrote:

When I checked my mail I recieved some most disterbing letters. First there
was Laura telling me what a louse I was for being the author of a dirogitory
remark. Added to this was Dee-Ann (who I rather respected) giving me a
warning about my inappropriate remarks. Many more of you added your two
cents hear and there. I read ALL of the messages before I started writing
this so that I would have most of (if not all) of the opinions here.

I'm glad you read all of them. I waited all day to repond to the
mounting calls to get rid of you, but if you expected me to sit back
and let the list be flooded (which bogs down my equipment and my site
and makes it difficult for myself and the others who rely on it for
their work to use)...well, it's just not feasible if I want to have a
usable site to sit and wait for days for someone to defend themselves.

I wish to thank Coyote Sings for comming forward and saying that it was he
who first used the offending term. Taking responsibilty for that, especially
after the way I was treated, showed a lot of guts and my respect for you has
taken several giant steps upwards. I would also like to express my
sincerest appreciation and thanks to several "lurkers" (your words, not
mine, and no disrespect intended as I am one of you). You realized that I
am trying to "discuss" ideas, not flame-bait.

Yes, I was fully aware the Coyote Sings first used the term. What I
took exception to is to you posting in return _just_ your return
remark. No comments. Just a reverse slam. I'll tell you what other
posts I've had a problem with in the same vein which aren't yours.
The guy who posted something to the effect of "you people have mental
problems"...how very constructive. And there was the guy who posted
about feminazis, who was obviously trying to flamebait. Why have I
not posted specifically about them? So far they've only done it
once. Repeatedly will get them warned then banned.

Another comment I was using as reference when I posted was your bit
about "would you rather products were tested on you instead of
animals?" that also seemed to me to be flamebaiting. However, it was
mixed in with other stuff, so I wasn't going to say anything at that
time until I saw how you continued. The problem is that you
vascillate between a disagreeable but discussion stance, to an
actively hostile and baiting stance. The first is just fine, if
everyone here agreed this would be a boring place. Actively hostile
is borderline. Baiting is unacceptable, and repeated baiting will get
someone removed. I obviously disagree that you never flamebait, which
is what you seem to be trying to say.

Yes...to some of you, the questions I ask and the situations I speak of will
leave a bad taste in your mouth; but they must be asked and they must be
stated. Why? Becasue I will not go peacefully into that long good night. I
will not accept "the big lie". Don't expect me to take what you give me and
be thankfull that you acknowledged my existance.

When stated in a calm manner, it's discussion. When stated in little
jabbing remarks, it's baiting. It's a fine line between the two.
However, I don't recall personally saying that anyone has to believe
what I say, or be thankful that I bothered to say anything to them at
all.

I think part of the problem boils down to attitude. Enough of what
you say is backed by some sort of "I'll never believe you people and
you're just fooling yourselves that you could ever possibly be right"
attitude. That is going to cause negative reactions to the things you
say, even when you are simply trying to discuss, because you don't
_present_ things like you're trying to discuss. And, it really is
hard to understand why you'd even want to be on a list like this,
except to hammer at the people here. You talk mostly about how men
are the victims in society...why then would you be here talking to
people who would want to empower women? You talk about how,
basically, slavery and submission are sick in a forum where I don't
think I've ever met someone who wasn't into some form of BDSM. That
doesn't make it wrong not to be into BDSM, but it means that when you
tell a bunch of people that what you think they do and/or enjoy is
sick, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy.

[I'm not going to respond to the part to Laura]

Dee-Ann: You, most of all, dissappointed me. I saw your response to a post
that I had written and thought that you were someone I could talk to and get
opinions from and give opinions to, without being judged. I can see from
your later posts that this is not the case. It seems even you wish to
silence anyone who would question authority or those who wish to be in
authority.

Please show me exactly where you get this. I've gone back over my own
posts and can't see where in the heck I said anything about wanting to
silence people who questioned authority, or who wanted to be in
authority. I tried to look for where I might have intimated it, but
if I did I obviously missed it before, and missed it this time as
well.

Considering I wrote my post on a system flooded with requests to get
rid of you to the point that it was difficult to use, I figure I wrote
a pretty good defense of your right to be here as long as you stayed
within the "no baiting" rules. And, once again, your response to
Coyote Sings' "dead ass" comment, from anyone who had come out of the
blue to say that, would have at _least_ made me stop and consider
posting a warning.

Your words hurt the most and cut the deepest. I have no wish to
try and change the minds of anyone on this mail group (MG); and never did.

Well, that's good to hear, considering wandering into a group
dedicated to a philosophy and trying to convert everyone to another
one isn't generally a productive way to spend one's time. :)

I was attempting, (poorly at first, but I had hoped to get better) to
present situations to readers that WILL come up in the real world. I wanted
to read their responses (hopfully mature responses) so that I could judge
for myself the ideas and concepts of femal supremecy.

You'll learn better how people think and feel if you're not constantly
attacking their views. Putting people on the defensive doesn't make
for the best discussions. And, yes, your method of discussion can
often come off as attacking, regardless of what you mean by it.

As the moderator of
this MG I was most suprised by your lack of an apology or acknowledgement
that I was not the person responsible for the "offending" words.

This is one thing I've been meaning to comment on. This is not fully
a _moderated_ mailing list. If it were a moderated mailing list,
every single post would have to go to me first. Then, if I felt it
was acceptable, I would send it along. No thanks...if anything, I
don't have the _time_ for that. And, that would IMO just stifle
discussions. The only way in which this list is moderated is that
there are set guidelines (no flames, no flamebaiting). If someone
insists on repeatedly crossing those lines (I try to give leeway for
accidents). You have a way of constantly dancing a little too close,
and have a few times perhaps danced a little too far, so my comment
was intended as a caution (as they always are).

So, basically, I did not apologize because I knew perfectly well that
Coyote Sings was the first one who used the phrase. His usage was at
least an attempt at making a point and went with the rest of his
post. Yours was simply thrown out there as a reverse slap...and "he
started it" IMO isn't valid. If it had been done in some sort of
context, it would have possibly been acceptable. Possibly.

As Laura is
not the moderator I can not expect her to read every bit of mail that is
sent; but you should be reading them and you should have seen Coyoty's mail
admitting responsibility. Yet, you said nothing.

I don't fully read everything. I'm not fully a moderator, I don't
have to. Trust me, if someone is posting things that people feel
strongly are "offensive" to the list, I hear about them in personal
e-mail people send to me, or mail to the list administrator. He was
admitting to "starting it." I saw that. I made note of it before I
made my post. I considered commenting in response to his post, I
chose not to.

I had respect for both of you, and in a way I suppose I always will; but
much of that respect has been diminished and not likely to every be
recovered. Neither of you may even care what I think or feel, (as you seem
to have made plain in your posts) but assuming this even gets sent out with
the rest of the mail to the world at large, someone out there will read this
and care. Am I bitter? No. Dissappointed...Yes. But not bitter. I was hoping
that I might actually learn something here about female supremecy and in a
way I guess I have; but not what I was hoping to learn.

How can you expect to learn about something when you spend your time
attacking the people who could tell you about it? Asking well thought
out questions works much better as an information-seeking tool than
just kind of arguing with people.

From this post on, I will do little more than lurk in the background. I
might send private messages to people who's ideas and opinions I find
interesting and their response or lack thereof will tell me what I need to
know. If any of you consider this as flame-bait or attempt to goad me into
responding to hatefull words, forget it. I will definately not respond
either in mail or in public.

That is your choice, of course. If anyone tries to flamebait at you,
they will be warned as well. It goes both ways. This is, of course,
on the list. I have no jurisdiction over what happens in e-mail,
unless someone uses this list just to get a list of people to
privately harass.

I do wish a special thank you to those of you who understood that I was not
arguing for or against the ideas presented here but instead trying to
promote discusion. You understood, and for that I am greatfull. Thank You.

I still believe that you must take part of the responsibility
yourself, in that if you mean to simply discuss, and are coming on as
argumentative, it is _your_ responsibility to study your own
discussion style and adapt. Or, if you truly feel folks
overreact...well, perhaps they're not people who for one reason or
another you want to talk to. But, generally, I find that things are a
2 way street and rarely is there only one person or side to blame.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:55:47 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: (As if it really mattered)
Message-Id: <199604051355.FAA00418@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:


Laura: I have read what you posted and suddenly realize why you never
did come back with some sort of apology or even acknowledgment of the
fact that I was not initially responsible for the "offending" words.

No, I was confused about who said what. I do apologize for criticizing
you for something you weren't responsible for. There's enough stuff
that can be definitly attributed to you to work with. :)

Special note: Be very careful about assuming something like that I'm a
hard, unintelligent, and blindly fanatical individual who has no sense
of humor and will see no reason, never giving a guy a chance. Be
*real* careful about that...

Dee-Ann: You, most of all, dissappointed me. I saw your response to
a post that I had written and thought that you were someone I could
talk to and get opinions from and give opinions to, without being
judged. I can see from your later posts that this is not the case.

News flash: This is not the unconditional love club, and Dee-Ann is
not your mommy. You are not *Mr. All-Men*, Mark, and the criticism you
have drawn is generally not leveled at the other men on the list,
because they generally don't deserve it.

I was attempting, (poorly at first, but I had hoped to get better) to
present situations to readers that WILL come up in the real world.

Oh, yeah, we have all lived such sheltered lives that we need *you* to
warn us about real life.
Am I bitter? No. Dissappointed...Yes. But not bitter.

Well good, I'm sure we are all glad that you are not bitter. Now get
off the table, and stop trying to be the center of attention, when we
are here to discuss the topic of female supremacy.
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:01:39 -0500 (EST)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: feminism??
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I think all of you that consider themselves feminist should look up in
the dictionary what the meaning is...

It isn't women bashing men, and feeling they should have the power.

It is women wanting the same rights as men.

If you people don't get the right meaning, this revolution will never go
anywhere.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, and go outside, away from your
computer, and do something about it.

David


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:16:54 -0500
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Message-ID: <960405121653_506484545@mail06

In a message dated 96-04-04 23:41:16 EST, you write:

Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any.

Don't worry. Us slaves don't respect you either.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:07:12 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604051707.JAA07438@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

David wrote:

I think all of you that consider themselves feminist should look up in
the dictionary what the meaning is...It isn't women bashing men, and
feeling they should have the power. It is women wanting the same
rights as men.

No argument there. Who are the "you" people to whom you are addressing
this?

If you people don't get the right meaning, this revolution will never
go anywhere.

Well, I don't think that *you* have a firm grasp of the distinction
between _female supremacy_ and _feminism_. This is a female supremacy
mail list, not a feminist mail list, so if female supremacists are in
the majority here, you shouldn't be surprised. Some feminists are also
female supremacists, many are not. Why don't you do a little homework,
dear?

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, and go outside, away from your
computer, and do something about it.

David

Hmm. David, (it is David, isn't it? :::peering through lorgnette:::)
Who were you addressing this to, exactly, and why?


--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:27:05 -0500
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: (As if it really mattered)
Message-ID: <960405122704_463109379@mail06

I read both Dee Ann's and Laura's responses to Bedell's long letter.

You two made some great comments. But I suspect they fell on deaf ears (or
should it be blind eyes maybe?).

Just dump him. It's a big world. He can find other people to pester.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:31:06 -0500
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID: <960405123105_506495891@mail02.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-05 12:26:12 EST, you write:


Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, and go outside, away from your
computer, and do something about it.

David

Hmm. David, (it is David, isn't it? :::peering through lorgnette:::)
Who were you addressing this to, exactly, and why?



I can't figure out why these people, who don't like what the topic of
discusion is, just keep hanging around and bitching about it.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:41:48 -0500 (EST)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their computer
instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much narrows it
down to everyone on this mailing list.

I found this mailing list by looking up feminist on Netscape. If this
isn't a feminist mailing list, why is under feminist?

So...Laura, do you consider yourself a feminist?



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:45:24 -0500 (EST)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Lonely...?

It isn't that I don't like the topic, it is that I am trying to learn why
people think the way they do...

David


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:58:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonathan
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, David Gavinberg wrote:
I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their computer
instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much narrows it
down to everyone on this mailing list.

I found this mailing list by looking up feminist on Netscape. If this
isn't a feminist mailing list, why is under feminist?

David,

Your assumption that people on this list are doing nothing other than
sitting on their butts in front of a computer screen is offensive.
For all we know, you are doing nothing more.

In recent posts, Laura has described what she is doing to further Female
Supremacism and to defend sexual and social freedom so that the climate is
less hostile toward FS ideas.

Dee-Ann is clearly putting in a lot of time moderating this list (more than
usual lately, it would appear).

Others on this list have talked about what they are doing and have
offered suggestions for others.

I myself have been active in my local pansexual BDSM group (the Black Rose
in Washington, DC) since its inception nearly 9 years ago and have made
assisted in social/educational FemDom activities as time has permitted.

To answer your question, this list might be considered feminist because FS
and feminism have common short-term goals. However, female supremacists
tend to want to take the idea of female empowerment farther than many
feminists. How much farther is a valid topic for debate on this list.

I fear you may have wandered in cyberspace to somewhere where you are
not comfortable. Please feel free to ask *polite* questions.

Jonathan

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 10:50:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604051850.KAA19985@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David Gavinberg wrote:
It isn't that I don't like the topic, it is that I am trying to learn why
people think the way they do...

David -also- wrote:
I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their computer
instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much narrows it
down to everyone on this mailing list.

I found this mailing list by looking up feminist on Netscape. If this
isn't a feminist mailing list, why is under feminist?

Hmmm. You're trying to learn more, you say, with no dislike of the 'topic'
here, but to learn "why people think the way they do" here. Your attitude,
however, makes it sound like rather like a scientist attempt to "learn" why
a healthy cell sometimes goes cancerous - like there's something "sick" in
the way the people here think.

Now, I don't post much here on the list.... Perhaps, because I'm "doing
something with (my) life", and hence busy, without as much time for writing
as I might wish for. After all, I might be too busy collecting rifles and
ammunition, bomb parts, and information to blackmail important politicians
and military personel into supporting the female supremacy revolution. A
very male approach to achieving things, but then, I'm a male.

And, speaking of spending their life on a computer, and viewing reality as
if through a monitor.... You found the list by looking up feminist on
Netscape, hence, it _must_ be a feminist mailing list. Now, how ever in
the world might something on a computer be less than 100% accurate? Such
a thing could never be! This mail list doesn't maintain those net search
engine databases, and isn't responsible for whatever it might be filed
under. Though, perhaps, just perhaps, it's there because someone thought
it might be of interest to those looking up feminist information, even if
not truly a feminist list?

Even if you're not hostile towards this list, and the people who subscribe
to it, your words are, regardless of the message. Like Mark, you should
probably reexamine your communications skills, -if- you feel you're just
misunderstood here.

For example, presuming your message was that people needed to do something
more than just talk on the mail list, you could've said something in a
different, a nonhostile, tone :

In the interest of actually furthering the precepts of a more matriarchal
government, can anyone tell me of how they're doing things off this list?
Supporting the campaigns of good, female political candidates, or even
male candidates who might be helpful, who are less heavily into the "old
Boys Club"? Writing their representatives to remind them of the term limit
clause in their "Contract With America", which might be one way of leveling
the playing field and possibly letting more women in? If we don't start
doing something outside this mail list, how is there going to be a change?

(My regrets for the American-centric flavor of the above) No, what I wrote
isn't great, isn't likely to rouse people to do something actively. Then
again, it didn't take a huge amount of time or effort, and is only meant as
an example of how not to insinuate that everyone here is a keyboard potato.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:02:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199604051902.LAA00340@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 999

Coyote Sings wrote:

Wasn't it Holly (of blessed memory) who called ideology
-any ideology- 'the malest of all vanities' in that it is an
attempt to subdue Chaos? To impose mechanical order on a garden?

Please, yes: away with the 'isms.' But how?

Fairly simple. Talk in terms of how something would work, instead of
talking in terms of labels. Makes for less confusion.

I think what I proposed was too broad. How about this...What about
our present political systems (since we're from multiple countries
here) can see see need to be changed? Then, what changes should be
made? How can these changes be reasonably accomplished? Please
include what country you're referring to in your posts.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:17:14 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604051917.LAA08222@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:


I can't figure out why these people, who don't like what the topic of
discusion is, just keep hanging around and bitching about it.

One of life's annoying little mysteries... :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:22:04 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: feminism??
Message-Id: <199604051922.LAA14215@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

I was adressing this to everone who seem to be sitting on their
computer instead of doing something with their life...That pretty much
narrows it down to everyone on this mailing list.

I certainly includes you then. :)



--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:24:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: hobbes@netset.com
Cc: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Is the Christian God a Woman
Message-Id: <199604051924.LAA00362@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1008

Chuck Hopkins wrote:

I offer this piece in light of recent discussions. I offer it with no
opinions on my part.

Thanks for taking the time to include this article. I have this issue
of Maclean's sitting in my house, hadn't had a chance to read that
article yet. :)

To address a question from another poster on how to keep conversation
going during lulls, what I generally try to do if the list gets really
quiet is share articles I run across which have relevance to the
list. Sometimes folks just quietly read or delete them (which is
fine), but sometimes they can spark discussion. So, during those
quiet times, feel free to share articles you run across that you think
people here might find interesting.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #40
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: "Problem" posters and dissenting opinions
Re: Hello
Re:Where I'm coming from (Repost: Gynosupremacy)
Pet peeves (Re: "Problem" posters and dissenting opinions)
Re: Where I'm coming from
Re: Hello
Statistics
unsubscribe
Re: Hello
Have a great weekend
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
The wise listen to everyone; the fool listens to no one.
In my own defense (As if it really mattered)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:22:24 -0500
From: Maidsrvnt@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-ID: <960404002223_462018642@emout06.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-03 12:15:35 EST, Jens reinhardt wrote:

(in response to Laura Goodwin)

Can this really be? Is this a discussion anymore? I really was interested in
female supremacy topics. But if people who want to explain it are no longer
willing to explain it ... how do you want to get people to understand your
point
of view? You say that research is done...may I say that I doubt that your
arguments are the only ones existing on this topic?


No, no one ever said Laura's arguments are the only ones. Nor are
Dee-Ann's,
or Coyote Sings', etc., etc. Opinions will vary, and often do :-). If you
have other
evidence or argument, present it. But don't expect those who respond to
your posts to argue with themselves, and present evidence opposite to their
views. That is just plain silly. They are giving you_their_point of view. You

decide whether or not to accept it. But if you don't, should they then say


Supremacy
is a joke, and we should disband!!!

You don't want explanations, you want to be convinced, and convinced
using your own evidence on top of it. And that is not the purpose of this
list.


I never wanted to say that females are worse than males. And I believe that
there are many things in the way of female thinking and living that are good
and
perhaps better than in males. And I believe that there are many reasons for
female supremacy in a relationship. But I also think that this should not be
seen dogmatically.

Then don't look at it dogmatically. Start in the only place any of us can
now,
in your own life, in your own relationships. Help to build a new vision of
the
world. Nothing we discuss here will happen tomorrow. You will not wake up
under a Woman's whip unless you and She want it that way. And none of us
can change that.


If women are so perfect and males are so unworthy, why in the world should
it
be
useful for women to rule men? It would be unnecessary (or unintelligent) for
women to dominate a society where one half of the population is not worth to
think about, let alone to discuss with. Then it would be enough to
concentrate
the discussion on "female" topics.


Funny, for hundreds of years men found it quite useful to rule a society in
which the Female population (BTW, more than half by most counts) had no
vote or meaningful input.

I don't believe I have ever seen anyone advocate total disregard for the male
point of view here either. What is usually advocated is that Women should
decide matters, but that male input be given consideration. Laura's essay
on gynosupremacy is quite eloquent on the need for _mutual_ respect in
relationships. Anything else, frankly, is just entering into a realm of
fantasy.

I must say that a style of discussion where on part is too arrogant to
explain
his (or Her) wishes, ideas and thoughts to others, increases my doubts in
female
supremacy - at least in a political way. If you don't want to answer
"degenerated" mails, then don't. This is no reason to unsubscribe. But if it
is
no longer allowed to make critical remarks on this topic on the femsupremacy
list (this reminds me of a very bad time in history over here in Germany), I
will unsubscribe.

Jens


I believe Laura has already given the topic of comparisons to Nazis its just
due,
so I will refrain.


Tom


- to Love, Honor and OBEY

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:22:09 -0500
From: Maidsrvnt@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: "Problem" posters and dissenting opinions
Message-ID: <960404002208_462018470@emout04.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-04-03 16:25:03 EST, Dee-Ann wrote:


The people I forcibly remove from the list are flamers or _obvious_
flame-baiters. Aside from a few inappropriate comments (for which
Mark Bedell has been warned) he has not posted flames, and it could be
argued that a large percentage of his stuff is more oriented toward
discussion (though perhaps ornery discussion) than flame-baiting. I'm
not going to go into his discussion style here, but finish reading
this post before responding or making any decisions.

I keep seeing calls for more positive discussion, but I don't see
anyone _starting_ positive discussion. It's not going to magically
appear, folks, someone has to start it up so people can participate
and share their ideas. If you don't like the negative posts, don't
respond to them. If the person is there to just stir up trouble, they
will get bored and/or frustrated not getting the attention and leave,
just like in the newsgroups. Or, they will resort to flames or
flame-baiting and be removed and possibly banned from the list. I
work hard not to remove people simply because of their opinions.
Being presented with opposing opinions on occasion is one way of
making us re-evaluate our own beliefs, and is healthy as long as we
don't let it become too disruptive. As long as _we_ don't _let it_.

I agree with this. I mainly lurk here, so take my comments for what they are
(IMHO),
but most of Mark's stuff does seem to me to have the intention of promoting
discussion. Many of us don't like the direction of that discussion, but if
nothing else he has rejuvinated what had been for quite some time
a_very_quiet list.


Remember, discussions happen because someone starts them. You want to
have a positive discussion, start one. Throw out some topic ideas.

I also want to address the idea of "explaining Female Supremacy." One
problem with explaining it...there isn't a central "doctrine" for FS.
We can discuss what it means to us, but no one can (or should) say,
"this is how it is, this is how it should work, do it this way."
These are, of course, my opinions. :) And, well, after you've stated
your position on something time and time again, it gets plain old
having to restate it. Perhaps some folks would like to write up how
they approach FS and we can put it in an archive for people who come
later to access.


A great idea. If I remember correctly, (and I am sure someone will remind me
if I don't :))
this recent spate of activity was spurred by a newbie wanting information,
and being referred to The Gothic Tower as an example of a femsupreme society.
Maybe some of this 'ornery discussion' could be avoided if we had more
archive items to refer such people to, and could reduce our reliance on 'hot'
fiction items as sources of vision. Laura's fine essay on gynosupremacy would
be a good primer, if she would be willing. It would help newcomers to realize
that there are more possibilities in this lifestyle than slaves cowering in a
corner.

While on the subject of new people, while I want to be supportive of and
welcoming to anyone who is sincerely interested in this list, one of_my_pet
peeves about this list is that it often degenerates (for long periods) to
nothing but a newbie announcing his (usually) presence, followed by Barry,
Laura and a few others welcoming them, following which they are never heard
from again. Anyone have any ideas on how we might encourage more discussion,
and less of these incessant
feels like we are boarding a plane and listening to the stews say Hi.



My suggestion is this. Those who are believers in FS should certainly
not unsubscribe. Some folks on this list, however, may want to
re-analyze why they are here. If you're just here to stir up trouble,
you're not going to last much longer. If you're here to try to
discuss and learn, you'll get much better responses by approaching
people with a better attitude.

Dee-Ann
List Admin


Couldn't have said it any better.


Tom

- to Love, Honor and OBEY

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:54:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Christopher Harsman" <99charsh@ultrix.uor.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Statistics are inherently unreliable and very prone to manipulation
and spin-doctoring. Take all such 'evidence' (no matter which side
presents it) with a certain grain of salt.

Don't discount important data. Much labor has been done and many risks
have been taken and many have devoted and even risked their lives to
bring the truth. Don't say, "You can't trust all statistics and
interpretations thereof, so don't trust any." That's a dangerous
fallacy which legitimizes passivity, timidity and mental sloth.

That phrase 'important data' bugs me. Allow me to explain. Data in and
of itself is seldom of great importance, it's what actions are taken
based on the input of said data. A list of names and addresses, say,
Sarah Connor, is by itself relatively mundane. Feed that list to, oh,
say, a post-holocaust time-travelling cyborg, on the other hand, and well...

My feeling isn't so much that statistics are wrong and shouldn't be
trusted. Perhaps I should have been more clear. My statement was meant
to convey that statistics alone *cannot* be an entire argument - merely
one of many tools which must go into an effective argument.

Too often I see/hear groups using statistics as their only (or major)
vehicle. This is dangerous and gravely misleading. On "Meet The
Depressed" last month, for example, they had some Christian-coalition
affiliate going off at length about the number of teen homicides in
relationship to the number of churches in urban areas, or some such
nonsense (i usually tune those shows out rather quickly, so my memory
falters).

It goes back to the ancient human condition, the 'two party' mentality.
Those for and those against (whatever). Surveys can be slanted,
information misconstrued. People can go out and find the information
which suits their viewpoints and ignore or completely discount that which
doesn't fit their ideas.

Consider the example of the college freshwoman, newly indoctrinated into
the ideals of feminism, will go to the library, do a surface skim on
statistics on, say, domestic violence, and come away armed with
statistics (another bogus stat here), say, that once every 3 seconds a
woman is killed by her husband, or something of the sort. She digests
this information, extrapolating that ALL men are to be feared as domestic
abusers when, in fact, MOST men never fall into that behavior pattern.
She sees what she wants in statistics and looks no further. Therein lies
the danger.

(Side note to maintain a semblance of PC stature here... The female
example chosen above could just as easily have been applied, say, to the
18 year old male Young Republican, or whomever...)

My point (yes, there is one) is that statistics can be tools, but
recognize them for what they are. Don't give them too much credit, for
very seldom do they tell the entire tale. If the matter interests you,
do yourself a favor and look into it.


Chris Harshman_______________________________________XCC System Administrator
I'm the fearless leader of the XCC, some of the most foul, cruel, and
bad-tempered Netizens you've ever set eyes on! I'm also Racer #420
in Team Festiva, proudly sponsored by the Psychic Friends Network.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 04 Apr 96 07:11:14 EST
From: Jens Reinhardt <100744.1745@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re:Where I'm coming from (Repost: Gynosupremacy)
Message-ID: <960404121114_100744.1745_EHV101-1@CompuServe.COM

Dear Laura Goodwin,

i was very impressed by your article. now i understand much better what you
mean. Many thanks for reposting this document.

i must admit that i really adore your lifestyle.

jens

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:03:18 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Pet peeves (Re: "Problem" posters and dissenting opinions)
Message-Id: <199604041503.HAA23758@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

one of_my_pet peeves about this list is that it often degenerates
(for long periods) to nothing but a newbie announcing his (usually)
presence, followed by Barry, Laura and a few others welcoming them,
following which they are never heard from again.

That was going on during the holiday season, when everybody was busy.
I have been with the list about a year now, and it's not usual for this
list.

My pet peeve is I'm tired of all the debates about *Gothic Tower*. I
haven't read it and probably won't, because I barely have time to read
the funnies, much less a novel. Haven't you all read anything else? :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:29:31 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Where I'm coming from
Message-Id: <199604041529.HAA10943@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

i must admit that i really adore your lifestyle.

jens

Right, so do I, and that's why I promote and defend it so tirelessly.

I think the issue of women taking over the world is a false one, or
it's premature. First, let's secure some areas where the femdom life
can be lived, and considered normal. This alone will be challenge
enough.

There is a growing restlessness in the world regarding gender roles and
human rights, including sexual rights. Also, the issue of religious
freedom is heating up. The issue of individual's rights vs. society's
rightful demands has been on the table for some time. Out of this
ferment, the issue of our right to live the way we prefer to must be
settled to our satisfaction. Remember, rights are not granted by the
oppressor, they are won in struggle and maintained with vigilance,
generation after generation. Asking "will you please" will not do it.
Women and their supporters must organize, and must be willing to look
ugly and get dirty. We can't be timid, squeamish, or thin-skinned.

So, no, I don't expect men to simply roll over and let women take their
proper place on the world stage. I expect they will fight it. I
expect they will call us all bitches and crazy. Don't wear you best
clothes to the revolution.

Submissive femdom men can expect to be called traitors, faggots,
stupid, lazy and crazy. There will be days you will wish you'd stayed
in bed. So understand that the enemy will not make it easy for us.
Women need heroes. Femdom men must strengthen their bodies and
resolve.
--
Laura Goodwin

"You don't have to be an angel to be a saint."
(Albert Schweitzer)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 96 10:56:15 CST
From: "J. Neal"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <960404.105740.CST.JNEAL@CMSUVMB

Let's not forget Mark Twain's take on statistics: "There are three kinds of
lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

J. Neal

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:38:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Mike
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Statistics
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
content-length: 487

There are two important things to remember about statistics:

1) Figures don't lie, but liars can figure;

2) 73.81 percent of all statistics are simply *made up* :)


Mike Woods
mwoods@dgs.dgsys.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:11:34 +-300
From: Andry Arro
To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
Subject: unsubscribe
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:00:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonathan Krall
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

Don't discount important data. Much labor has been done and many risks
have been taken and many have devoted and even risked their lives to
bring the truth. Don't say, "You can't trust all statistics and
interpretations thereof, so don't trust any." That's a dangerous
fallacy which legitimizes passivity, timidity and mental sloth.


Hear Hear! If we abandon statistics we give up on one way of discerning
the truth among the static. The trick is to distinguish between a
relevant statistic and an irrelevant one.

IMO, the ability to tell the difference between a valid argument and a
specious one is a skill which improves with practice. A good way to
practice this is to dissect advertising.

For example, if your TV set tells you that the new Ford RoadHog is the
best selling midsize American four-door sedan for under $20,000, it's a
pretty good guess that the new Ford RoadHog is the *only* midsize American
four-door sedan for under $20,000. This is an example of an irrelevant
(or nearly irrelevant) statistic.

The reason I bring this up is that people who are working against us
(like those in the US Congress who voted for the Communications Decency
Act) constantly spout misleading garbage. We would do well to arm
ourselves.

End of lecture (and thanks for reading it),

Jonathan

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 17:16:46 -0800
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Have a great weekend
Message-Id: <199604050113.RAA26127@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to wish you all a great weekend. It's a long weekend for us in
Canada and I'm sure for you too. I'm looking forward to having some time to
participate in the conversations that take place on this list. Talk to you
in a bit.
Mark Gajb

Wicked men obey from fear; good men, from love.
-Aristotle

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:04:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Scott Rudolph
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604050204.UAA21790@mail.execpc.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:56 AM 4/3/96 -0800, you wrote:
We seem to have a couple of guys posting to this list who absolutely,
positively do not get it.

--(snip)
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

__________________________________________________________________

Thank you Laura, I couldn't have said it better myself.

scott rudolph


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 23:28:43 -0500
From: Steve55260@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: The wise listen to everyone; the fool listens to no one.
Message-ID: <960404232842_264469228@emout04.mail.aol.com

The wise recognizes what the fool has to say as foolishness; whereas the
fool only hears his own foolishness and believes it. And so is it with
statistics.

Unfornuately, most of us do not have the time to hear everything and
sort through it all... Therefore we rely on others like Dee-Ann to moderaye
lists to keep them on topic; but at the same time I am generally against
censorship.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 96 21:19 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: In my own defense (As if it really mattered)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

When I checked my mail I recieved some most disterbing letters. First there
was Laura telling me what a louse I was for being the author of a dirogitory
remark. Added to this was Dee-Ann (who I rather respected) giving me a
warning about my inappropriate remarks. Many more of you added your two
cents hear and there. I read ALL of the messages before I started writing
this so that I would have most of (if not all) of the opinions here.

I wish to thank Coyote Sings for comming forward and saying that it was he
who first used the offending term. Taking responsibilty for that, especially
after the way I was treated, showed a lot of guts and my respect for you has
taken several giant steps upwards. I would also like to express my
sincerest appreciation and thanks to several "lurkers" (your words, not
mine, and no disrespect intended as I am one of you). You realized that I
am trying to "discuss" ideas, not flame-bait.

Yes...to some of you, the questions I ask and the situations I speak of will
leave a bad taste in your mouth; but they must be asked and they must be
stated. Why? Becasue I will not go peacefully into that long good night. I
will not accept "the big lie". Don't expect me to take what you give me and
be thankfull that you acknowledged my existance.

Laura: I have read what you posted and suddenly realize why you never did
come back with some sort of apology or even acknowledgment of the fact that
I was not initially responsible for the "offending" words. I am not a part
of your world in any way shape or form. I would not and do not respect
someone who thought themselves my slave in or out of bed nor would I expect
you to respect me if I came to you on my knees begging to be your slave.
Slaves have earned no respect and probably don't deserve any. But this is
of course beside the point. That is your life and I have no right, nor do I
intend, to try to change you from it. I do find your point of view
interesting; and I would like very much to hear more of your philosphy. I am
not interested in agreeing or disagreeing with it. I just want to learn
about it.