Dee-Ann: You, most of all, dissappointed me. I saw your response to a post
that I had written and thought that you were someone I could talk to and get
opinions from and give opinions to, without being judged. I can see from
your later posts that this is not the case. It seems even you wish to
silence anyone who would question authority or those who wish to be in
authority. Your words hurt the most and cut the deepest. I have no wish to
try and change the minds of anyone on this mail group (MG); and never did.
I was attempting, (poorly at first, but I had hoped to get better) to
present situations to readers that WILL come up in the real world. I wanted
to read their responses (hopfully mature responses) so that I could judge
for myself the ideas and concepts of femal supremecy. As the moderator of
this MG I was most suprised by your lack of an apology or acknowledgement
that I was not the person responsible for the "offending" words. As Laura is
not the moderator I can not expect her to read every bit of mail that is
sent; but you should be reading them and you should have seen Coyoty's mail
admitting responsibility. Yet, you said nothing.

I had respect for both of you, and in a way I suppose I always will; but
much of that respect has been diminished and not likely to every be
recovered. Neither of you may even care what I think or feel, (as you seem
to have made plain in your posts) but assuming this even gets sent out with
the rest of the mail to the world at large, someone out there will read this
and care. Am I bitter? No. Dissappointed...Yes. But not bitter. I was hoping
that I might actually learn something here about female supremecy and in a
way I guess I have; but not what I was hoping to learn.

From this post on, I will do little more than lurk in the background. I
might send private messages to people who's ideas and opinions I find
interesting and their response or lack thereof will tell me what I need to
know. If any of you consider this as flame-bait or attempt to goad me into
responding to hatefull words, forget it. I will definately not respond
either in mail or in public.

I do wish a special thank you to those of you who understood that I was not
arguing for or against the ideas presented here but instead trying to
promote discusion. You understood, and for that I am greatfull. Thank You.

Mark Bedell

/---\
/ 0 0 \
--------mmm---U---mmm-------
Kilroy
Was Here

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:
Is the Christian God a Woman
Re: OK, now let's try this...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:56:16 -0500
From: "Chuck Hopkins"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Is the Christian God a Woman
Message-Id: <199604040258.VAA10340@zeus.netset.com

I offer this piece in light of recent discussions. I offer it with no
opinions on my part.

I should also mention, it is rather long, It originally was printed
in Maclean's Magazine, a weekly newsmag from Canada.

Date sent: 03 Apr 96 17:13:57 EST
From: Chuck Hopkins <70003.7721@compuserve.com
To: Chuck Hopkins
Subject: Is God A woman??

BY MARCI McDONALD with SANDRA FARRAN in Toronto

I found god in myself . . .& I loved her fiercely
--playwright Ntozake Shange

It was in the midst of a Sunday morning mass on a visit back to her
native Dublin last year that Mary Malone realized she could not go on.
Rising for the recitation of the creed, she could no longer say the
words she had once chanted with girlhood passion--words that had swept
her to her vows 33 years earlier as a sister of the Faithful
Companions of Jesus. All around her, others repeated the age-old
refrain, "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and
Earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son. . . ." But Mary Malone, who
had left the convent in 1974 and gone on to become a noted Canadian
Catholic theologian, stood silent. At 57, she suddenly found herself
unable to make the fundamental profession of faith to a God cast in a
masculine image. "For me, it was clear: I can no longer worship or
pray," she says, "because of the language, and because it seemed so
essential as the core of the tradition that God be male."

Malone would have preferred to keep that bitter epiphany private. But
she knew she had served as a reassurance to other women anguished by
the Vatican's recent stands: its "definitive" 1994 veto of female
ordination and more gender-neutral language in the catechism. "In the
circles I moved, I represented something: somebody who could be a
feminist and also Roman Catholic," she says. "But I really felt a
fraud." Before resuming her teaching job at St. Jerome's College, an
independent liberal arts university federated with the University of
Waterloo, in Kitchener, Ont., Malone knew what she must do. Phoning a
friend from The Tablet, a British Catholic bulletin, she made public
her decision to leave not only the church, but Christianity as well.
This spring, when that news hit diocesan newsstands back home, it sent
shock waves through many in this country's 12.5-million-member Roman
Catholic community. "For a lot of women, you could stay in the church
because Mary had stayed," says Louise Slobodian of the Toronto-based
Catholic New Times. "Now, you really have to think about that." But
for others, Malone's announcement was merely the latest tremor in a
seismic upheaval that is far larger and more unsettling: the emergence
of a new women's spirituality movement that is making itself felt
around the world in a dizzying variety of manifestations, both sacred
and profane.

For if many women like Malone have fled mainstream religions--some
flocking to the exuberant rites of goddess circles sprouting across
the country--others have chosen to stay, pushing the envelope of
spiritual possibilities from within. In churches, synagogues and even
the continent's Buddhist zendos, women are demanding a revolution in
tradition that reflects their historic role and their ongoing stake in
the divine. Those battles have been acrid and polarizing, often won in
doctrinal pronouncements but not in the private sanctums of the heart.
A year after the Church of England gave its contentious 1992 blessing
to the ordination of women priests--a move embraced almost two decades
earlier by the Anglican Church of Canada--a British vicar made a point
of fuming to the media that he would "burn the bloody bitches."
Insisted Rev. Anthony Kennedy: "A woman can't represent Christ. Men
and women are totally different--that's not my fault--and Jesus chose
men for his disciples."

But now, with women ordained in all but the most conservative
Protestant churches and synagogues, a new Jordan looms--a gender
divide so profound that religious scholars have likened its magnitude
to Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation. "The awakening of
spirituality in women is the biggest single thing that is happening in
contemporary religion," says Tom Harpur, a former Anglican priest and
theologian who ponders the phenomenon in his newly published book
Would You Believe? "That is the movement that has the biggest
potential for change, not only in liturgy, but in the changes it will
bring in understanding the nature of God."

Already, in virtually every tradition, that movement has prompted a
rewrite of the language of worship. And this week as millions of
Canadians celebrate Easter and Passover, the fruits of those labors
will be on display. In previews of the new United Church hymnal, due
out next month, worshippers can sing the praises not only of God the
Father, but also "God the All-Holy, Maker and Mother." Similarly, at
seder dinners to commemorate the exodus of the Jewish people from
Egypt, some revised Haggadahs, the Passover prayer books, will hail
God not only as "He" but also as "She Who Dwells Within." Whether
provoking delight or dismay, those changes are no mere nips and tucks
to the ritual vocabulary. They strike at the heart of Judeo-Christian
doctrine--the very character of divinity--to pose a once-unthinkable
question: can God be a woman?

Perhaps the best measure of the emotions at stake in that question
came last month when the director of Britain's six-century-old York
Mystery Plays announced that this year God would be played by a
woman--local antique dealer Ruth Ford. The Archdeacon of York, George
Austin, promptly denounced it as "paganism. We are made in God's
image," he declared, "and not the other way around."

In the peach-marbled living-room of an upscale Toronto neighborhood,
an impromptu altar has been laid. On a small, round end table, a pot
of red tulips blooms in a thicket of candles. Around them, small
treasures have been tucked: painted Easter eggs, childhood treasures
and, in pride of place, a small stone reproduction of a primitive
neolithic goddess figurine decked out in a jaunty miniature necklace.
Outside, beyond the window, snowflakes are falling. But inside, two
chic and successful Toronto businesswomen are celebrating the spring
equinox.

Lin Berry Fines, a senior manager at a leading Canadian financial
institution, lights the candles. Then Orietta Minatel, a sales
executive with a major publishing firm, invokes the four directions
and elements according to the handbook at her side. For the next two
hours, they join in a ritual improvised from assorted workbooks and
workshops they have discovered as both have struggled, in different
ways, to find an expression of the sacred in their lives.

For Berry Fines, that has meant returning to the United Church after
22 years, where she has jointed a women's circle; for Minatel, finding
a way to replace the ritual she lost when she left the Catholic Church
three years ago. Having forged a bond at the bedside of a friend dying
with cancer, they decided to observe the first anniversary of her
death with a private memorial of their own making. "Quite frankly,"
admits Berry Fines, "I was nervous. I mean, I'd seen The Exorcist. And
I was quite clear: I'm very Christian."

But she found the process oddly comforting. And since then they have
regularly marked the passages in their lives with rituals they are
learning to devise. Neither can remember the identity of the
bejewelled goddess figure looking on from the sidelines, nor do they
care. "For me, this is not about invoking the goddess," says Berry
Fines. "It's really about acknowledging the Holy Spirit that has
existed in many guises over thousands of years."

Now, she and Minatel find themselves part of a vast groundswell of
women across the continent searching for new language and rites to
reflect what they call the feminine face of God. In fact, in his study
of social trends in Canada last year, University of Lethbridge
sociologist Reginald Bibby found that, although women's church
attendance has more than halved over the past four decades--with only
25 per cent now reporting regular attendance at services--60 per cent
still expressed spiritual needs. "This whole quest for a
woman-affirming spirituality is very big," confirms Juliet Huntly,
consultant for women's programs in the United Church, the country's
largest Protestant denomination. "It's a search for a spirituality
that is unique to women's experience."

If the brisk byways of commerce are any gauge of the impulses of the
spirit, that quest is both massive and mainstream. In January,
Publishers Weekly, the New York City-based bible of the book trade,
hailed women's spirituality as one of the fastest- growing categories
in the business. And at Sounds True Inc., a distributor of
inspirational audiotapes based in Boulder, Colo., founder Tami Simon
reports that 60 percent of her customers are women.

But the difficulty of taking the movement's measure is that it is not
in fact an organized movement at all. Indeed, most women seem to want
to keep it that way--low-key and grassroots, shifting with their
lives. Conducting a recent survey of church women's groups, Huntly
found them protesting, "We basically want to be left alone. We don't
want to be categorized or institutionalized." Agrees Orietta Minatel:
"In a way, I don't want women's spirituality to become mainstream
because then you get 'shoulds' and 'don'ts.' "

Some scholars see the feminist spiritual renaissance as the last gasp
of the women's movement, whose obituary has been penned repeatedly
over the past decade. But San Fran- cisco psychoanalyst Jean Shinoda
Bolen, one of its most thoughtful voices, dubs it the "third wave." As
she sees it,"There was the wave that came out of political and
economic unfairness. And the wave that dealt with relationship
inequality. Now, we're defining who we are and what matters to us."

Some like Berry Fines are continuing that quest from within their
churches and synagogues, while others like Minatel have abandoned hope
of finding their spiritual hungers met within institutional walls. But
most find themselves straddling the uneasy middle ground where doubt
and belief often dance. Says Shinoda Bolen: "I now call myself an
Episcopagan."

Still, in candlelit living-rooms and public conference halls,
increasing numbers are quietly gathering to mark the seasons or the
phases of the moon--reviving updated neo-pagan rites that link them to
nature and their own bodily cycles. Many have drifted to women's
circles from the environmental movement or yoga. But scavenging from a
grab bag of myth and even psychotherapy techniques, they are cobbling
together their own postmodern rituals at women's spirituality weekends
mushrooming from coast to coast.

Some are drumming or dancing, as they did in a weaving ritual that
opened a conference at the Vancouver School of Theology in February.
Others are retelling Bible stories--this time from the female bit
players' point of view. At an ecumenical gathering of women called
Finders/Keepers last spring in London, Ont., Sister Elaine Weisgerber,
a retired Ursuline nun from Regina, led what she called a
"false-naming" ritual, handing out apples and inviting the crowd to
bite deeply "to defy the Garden of Eden story. We don't buy into this
myth that Eve caused the downfall of humanity."

Earlier, Manitoba poet Di Brandt, a two-time Governor Generals Award
nominee, recounted how she healed the scars from her break with the
Mennonite community at a Winnipeg aboriginal moon ceremony. "Women are
crossing all the lines," said Shelley Finson, a professor at the
Atlantic School of Theology in Halifax, who is one of the pioneers of
the Christ- ian feminism movement in Canada. "And why shouldn't we?
We've always lived double lives."

Meanwhile, in Victoria, Sue Berrin has been attempting to craft new
rituals within the confines of the conservative Jewish tradition. A
rabbi's wife, she has helped revive an obscure holiday for women
called Rosh Chodesh, which falls on the new moon. And she has just
published a book of proposed rituals. Growing up, Berrin was furious
to realize her voice was not being heard in her faith. "But I could
never have left Judaism," she says. "So what I did with my anger was
to try to turn it into something more positive. I don't want my
daughters to feel disenfranchised."

A new generation of Catholic feminist scholars is also reclaiming
women's roles in early church history. In the process, they have
launched an unlikely recording superstar: Hildegard of Bingen, a
12th-century German abbess, composer and visionary, whose compositions
have been immortalized on a half-dozen compact discs. Another medieval
mystic enjoying a more modest comeback is Julian of Norwich, a
14th-century British prioress, whose writings are slated to appear in
the upcoming Anglican hymnal, complete with her salute to "Christ our
Mother." Says Mary Malone: "It's part of the hidden history of
Christianity that women historians are suddenly discovering."

In a darkened cave on the Greek island of Crete last October, novelist
Susan Swan found herself a reluctant pilgrim. Having heard about the
latest rage in spiritual tourism--pilgrimages to ancient goddess
shrines--she signed on for one led by Carol Christ, a former professor
at the Harvard Divinity School. For Swan, who was skeptical about the
booming goddess revival, it was strictly a research trip for her next
novel.

Not that she could escape evidence of its appeal. From bumper stickers
("Back off: I'm a goddess") to the plump silver and terra-cotta
figures dangling from stylish necks, goddesses have become big
business. In many New Age bookstores, they even rate their own
sections, where The Once and Future Goddess perches next to The
Goddess in the Office. A California quarterly, Sage Woman, boasts of
"celebrating the Goddess in Everywoman." And in Toronto, a bookstore
called WonderWorks, run by Mary Anderson, a former public housing
counsellor, devotes itself to goddess ware, including cheeky buttons:
"My Goddess gave birth to your God."

Studding Anderson's shelves are tiny clay and stone reproductions of
deities, from Egypt's Isis to the pot-bellied Venus of Willendorf,
which is 10,000 to 30,000 years old. Many owe their celebrity to
Goddess Remembered, a 1989 video documentary produced by Montreal
film-maker Donna Read for the National Film Board. In lyrical images
backed by a haunting sound track from Loreena McKennitt, Read
chronicled the finds of a Lithuanian-born archeologist named Marija
Gimbutas and others, who argued that, long before there was a male
Hebrew God, there were goddesses who presided over flourishing,
peaceable cultures.

Like Gimbutas, Read promptly found herself under attack from scholars
who argued there was no evidence for that conclusion. "I just think
it's drivel," says Gillian Gillison, a University of Toronto
anthropology professor. "There is no evidence at all that when you
worship female figures, it translates into anything." Even York
University professor emerita Johanna Stuckey, who is the country's
leading expert on goddess culture, accuses Gimbutas of "going off the
deep end." Says Stuckey: "None of us can prove anything about
prehistory." Still she argues that, whether true or not, the myth of a
goddess culture is a useful one. "There's a sense of empowerment," she
says.

To her own astonishment, Susan Swan would agree. Having dismissed
goddess worship as "middle-aged women doing spacey things in baggy
gowns," Swan stood at a Minoan shrine and found herself "struck by how
powerful the female images of God were to me." She had sneered at the
rituals Carol Christ had planned at each site. But, in a darkened
cave, she joined a circle of women in a rite where each called out the
name of her mother and grandmothers down her maternal ancestral line
as far as she could recall. "And then," she says, "I began to weep."

Now Swan talks with difficulty about how her life has changed. For the
first time in decades, she has begun to pray. "I do pray to a
goddess-like presence," she says hesitantly. "But I don't know whether
she's a metaphor for my inner self or whether there's some spiritual
force beyond the individual person."

In the beginning, there was the word. And, according to more than two
millenniums of male interpretation, that word was "He." Indeed at the
third-annual feminist seder in Calgary this month, known as Miriam's
Tapestry, many women will find themselves telling a story they have
never told before: the story not just of Moses' heroics leading the
Jewish people out of Egypt, but also of the role of his older sister
Miriam, who hid him in the bullrushes. But, for some traditionalists,
reclaiming that untold history is already daring enough. They are not
prepared to take the next step, praising God, not only as the
traditional Hebrew masculine Adonai, but also as the Shechinah--a
concept borrowed from the texts of the mystical Kabbalah--which means
"She who dwells within." Even for Rabbi Elyse Goldstein of Kolel, a
liberal yeshiva outside Toronto, that attempt to redress epochs of
male monopoly on divinity is still not entirely satisfactory. "I think
God has all characteristics," she told a Jewish women's spirituality
conference last February. "I mean, I don't think God has genitalia.
But if you tell me God is a man, that is a bottom line I can't
accept." In fact, the notion of the Shechinah, which feminists seized
on to counter their feelings of exclusion, has turned out to to have
its own baggage. "I used to do all my prayers to Shechinah," Goldstein
admitted, "until I learned a lot more about Her. She's passive and
receptive and the helper. It's almost like you're saying 'Godella.' "
Now Goldstein is currently trying to forge a gender-neutral word for
God. But it is not an easy task. As she points out, Hebrew is a
gendered language, "and I have a lot of trouble praying to God as an
'It.' "

Similarly, the editors of the new United Church hymnal are braced for
an uproar over their handiwork. Not only have they switched references
from "mankind" to "humankind," but they have added the ultimate
challenge in what liturgical circles call inclusive language: lyrics
by Catholic theologian Miriam Therese Winter which begin, "Mother and
God, to you we sing/wide is your womb, warm is your wing." Already,
the reaction from tradition-minded ministers like Rev. Donald Faris of
North Lonsdale United Church in Vancouver has not been enthusiastic.
"Some hymns are entirely objectionable," Faris says. "Some hymns we
will not sing." In fact, he has not yet ordered the new hymnal, which
he sees as a sop for "a radical feminist minority in the church."

The Presbyterian and Anglican churches of Canada will follow suit with
their new hymnals over the next year, both with more modest attempts
to address the feminine face of God. The new Presbyterian Book of
Praise is slated to appear this fall after an unprecedented and stormy
four years of test marketing. "Lots of people are angry," acknowledges
Diane Strickland, who has overseen that process, first at church
headquarters, now as a private consultant. "But the prepublication
sales have shattered all expectations. They're going to have to up the
print run." To Strickland's shock, the opposition has come from women
as well as men. "They say we're obsessed with being politically
correct," she protests. "But it isn't about that at all. Language is
profoundly important: it's about power--about who is included and who
is not."

At Anglican Church House, the final texts will not go to press until
next year. But after nearly a decade of congregational consultation,
protests still pepper the monthly Anglican Journal. And Paul Gibson,
the church's liturgical officer, makes no secret of his wariness to
discuss the 10 hymns out of 654 that are scheduled to wrap God in
maternal metaphors. "Every time I have used examples of inclusive
language," he worries, "it causes terrible grief."

Indeed, as those involved in that delicate task of negotiating change
know, there is more at stake than verbiage. Faris argues that meddling
with God's gender undercuts the very foundations of Christian
doctrine. "The issue is whether we can rename God and invent our own
religion," he says, "or whether Christianity is a revealed religion
where God has disclosed Himself to us." Even those who welcome the
changes agree. As Ron Graham, author of God's Dominion, a 1990 study
of religion in Canada points out: "Once you start questioning language
and definitions of God, then everything else starts to fall."

Already, theologians are predicting that, having altered the metaphors
for God, an even more explosive debate is waiting in the wings on the
nature of Christ. "Christology is the next area that's going to get
hot," says the United Church's Juliet Huntly. "Everything has changed.
The whole theology has to be rethunk."

In fact, two decades ago, Mary Daly, a rambunctious feminist
theologian at Boston College, had warned of the perils of language
tinkering. Having made her mark by arguing that the "feminist
revolution is essentially a spiritual revolution," she had gone on to
anger the Vatican by charging that sexism lay at the very heart of
church doctrine. Still, Daly did so with impeccable credentials: in
the 1960s, when U.S. Catholic women were still barred from studying
theology, she had gone to Switzerland to earn her PhD at the
University of Freibourg--in Latin. By 1973, however, she had concluded
in Beyond God the Father, that feminists could not stay Christians.
Then Daly left the church with the pronouncement: "As long as we
believe God is male, then the male thinks he is God."

More than two decades later, as a renaissance in women's spirituality
shakes up the foundation of theology, Daly has suddenly found herself
in fashion again. Once more, women are asking whether their spiritual
needs can be met within the church, or if they will be obliged to turn
elsewhere--breathing new life into old goddess images and
reconstructing their ritual lives from an eclectic stew.

In fact, a measure of Daly's newfound trendiness came last fall when
she received a call from TV sitcom star Roseanne Barr, who announced
that Daly's books had once changed her life. Barr invited her to write
for the controversial women's issue of The New Yorker. And as it
appeared last February, Daly regaled a packed hall at Hamilton's
McMaster University with tales of her foray to Hollywood, pondering
theological verities in a roomful of movie stars and New Yorker
editors at Roseanne's palm-fringed mansion. The title of her
chronicle: Sin Big.

But for conservative Christians across the continent, the magnitude of
women's transgressions against tradition has already been quite big
enough. And, in their view, nowhere was that more clearly on display
than in Minneapolis three years ago. There, 2,200 delegates from 27
countries showed up to mark the midpoint of the Ecumeni- cal Decade in
Solidarity with Women declared by the World Council of Churches. And
among them was a group of 80 from the United Church of Canada, which
included former moderator Lois Wilson. Christened RE-imagining, the
conference set out to rethink Christianity in ways that celebrate
women. Instead, it crystallized fundamental fears about the changes
wrought to language, liturgy and doctrine by women's demands to assume
their place as equals in the House of God.

"This was an event that was very much in the Christian tradition,"
says Juliet Huntly, who also attended. "There was nothing wild and
way-out about it." But not everyone agreed. Conservatives were
scandalized by reports of a closing Sunday ritual where, to gospel
choruses and drums, the entire assembly danced through the hotel
ballroom in homage to Sophia, a concept based on the transliteration
of the Greek word for wisdom, found in the Book of Proverbs. Like the
Hebrew notion of the Shechinah, Sophia has been seized on by
theologians as a way to portray the feminine aspects of God. But
during the RE-imagining ritual, Sophia acquired aspects that were
decidedly too female for some tastes: the prayer, complete with a
ceremony of milk and honey, referred to "warm bodily fluids" and
"nectar between our thighs."

To Ted Byfield, founder of Western Report, the message was clear. In
an editorial, he denounced the exercise as reminiscent of the very
pagan rites to fertility goddesses "that the Jews considered it their
first duty to overcome." Protested Byfield: "You change the image, and
you change the message, and that changes the religion."

The controversy over whether RE-imagining had gone pagan raged for
months, erupting on Ted Koppel's Nightline and finally costing Mary
Anne Lundy, one of the organizers, her job at U.S. Presbyterian
headquarters. So high were emotions that when Nancy Cocks, a professor
at the Vancouver School of Theology--who was not even at the
conference--was quoted in The Globe and Mail on the tradition of
Sophia, a colleague challenged her credentials as a teacher. As Cocks
points out, naming God is not an affair to be undertaken lightly. "For
some people this is an extremely sensitive area," she says. "To them
it's setting up another God."

As that debate continues to rage on, a few optimists believe that, in
fact, a new concept of divinity is trying to manifest itself in the
world. "There's something trying to be born that has elements of
Mother Earth and transcendence," says Ron Graham. "People are
searching for a new articulation of the eternal questions. And I think
that new articulation will have more of a feminine quality." But, he
cautions, "It's going to take hundreds of years for the transition to
go through."

Whether Graham is right or not, many Canadians will come to worship
over the next weeks in a vocabulary and a theology already in flux.
For some, that may be unsettling--yet another uncertainty in a
disquietingly uncertain world. But for others, it may in fact open the
way to a period of historic transformation when the answers to the
question, "Is God a woman?" will not be yes or no, but neither. Until
that time, men and women alike must negotiate their arrangements with
the Unknowable in the privacy of their own hearts.









the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:17:38 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: OK, now let's try this...
Message-Id: <199604040417.UAA21273@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1032


OK, now, if anyone, _after_ familiarizing themselves with what I just
sent to the list, would like to discuss, in a civilized,
non-confrontational manner, what I believe in or do/don't understand,
then please let's do. :)
--
Laura Goodwin


Please keep doing what you're doing, Laura, and keep telling
us about it.

Please keep post posting both about your own activities
and beliefs, and please post whatever you can from either _Echoes_
or any other SMC material.

All of what you've posted is good grist for the discussion mill.

Shine on, hey :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:
Where I'm coming from (Repost: Gynosupremacy)
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:27:38 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Where I'm coming from (Repost: Gynosupremacy)
Message-Id: <199604040127.RAA17284@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com

Well, here it is again. :) Those who are too familiar with this essay
may feel free to delete. This was written for the SMC newsletter, and
was never intended for a "general" audience. FYI, SMC is a
Goddess-worship church for femdoms.

GYNOSUPREMACY
By Laura Goodwin, Hps.


My name is Laura and I'm a...gynosupremacist. I am a dominant
woman who has been a Priestess of the Goddess-centered Service of
Mankind Church since 1983. I know what belonging to SMC means to me:
that I am part of a community of kindred spirits who love to see
females in positions of authority, even the highest position possible,
the throne of heaven. I personally can see no reason to limit women's
opportunities on earth, especially under the rule of the Goddess.
When a woman becomes Queen, Prime Minister, CEO or Poet Laureate,
I rejoice. Among everyday people, when I become aware that a woman of
my acquaintance is head of her household and has earned the loyalty and
respect of her family, I'm glad to see it. Naturally, I feel a kinship
with any woman who is dominant sexually, as I do with the men and women
who adore dominant women.
My husband is a masochist, and he enjoys being my submissive
"slave". We love one another, we respect each other, he is in no way
abused, but I do demand and expect that he obey me. I am the queen of
my own little sphere. My husband, my lovers, my playmates and friends
all look to me for leadership and guidance. My children are expected
to obey me, and I have earned their respect and love.
I have structured my whole life in such a way that I enjoy the
responsibilities and privileges of power. I have taken it upon myself
to help save the human race, one person at a time if necessary. My
activities as a Priestess and Leatherfolk advocate have led to my being
honored and offered authority positions, which I like. I'm comfortable
with the demands of leadership.
There are millions of women who are suited for dominance; not
just sexual, but social dominance as well. They do not need to be put
down and kept in their place; they need to rise to their natural place
in life. They have mental and spiritual needs which are not satisfied
by the current social superstructure. The present society still favors
males over females, encouraging males to be domineering, while
discouraging and handicapping females. If males were truly naturally
dominant over females, there would be no need to "stack the deck". The
fact that overwhelming pressure must be maintained to keep women down
is clear evidence that women don't just naturally stay down.
When I see a masochistic woman who limits her "master's" power to
the bedroom, demanding to be respected at all times as a human being, I
feel glad. When submissive men demand their right to have their
sexual and psychological needs and respected, complaining that they're
tired of being forced to pretend they are macho when they're not, I am
overjoyed. I can't tell you how much that means to me. Yes,
submissives have rights, and I am a staunch defender of those rights.
A little respect is good for everyone, and it's good for the soul to
show respect to other human beings. I hope we all respect ourselves
enough to give ourselves lovers who value us.
I want the sexes to have full equality, and a level
playing field. So? What does that make me? Is there a word for
someone who likes it when women and men enjoy equal advantages? Yes,
a Feminist.
When I'm in the company of a fully evolved dominant man, I can
admire him and enjoy his company, considering him to be a brother,
unless he's one of those who honestly believes that women are inferior
to men... you know, a Male Chauvinist.
A Female Chauvinist is someone who thinks that women are superior
to men, with men still being the norm. I am not a female chauvinist.
I believe in the innate equality of the sexes. For me, this is not an
article of faith, but a manifest fact of life. There are submissive
men and women. There are dominant women and men. There are men and
women who are both dominant and submissive. This proves nothing.
This, plus enough for a token, will get you a ride on the subway.
In the Goddess-worshipping SMC church, there is no conflict
between flesh and spirit; they are one. We advocate practicing S/M as
a spiritual discipline, as well as a hot erotic practice. The
Priestess is an agent of the Goddess, and can represent the Goddess
incarnate in ritual. Every woman is the queen of her own hearth and
home. The men in our church can be Priests, and embody the God, (our
Goddess's consort) during ritual. Our religion is that the Goddess is
the supreme deity, mother of all, even other Gods. Because we
celebrate "the Female over the Male" (namely the Goddess over the God),
we may be called gynosupremacists, until someone thinks of a better
word.
One woman acquaintance told me she doesn't like the word because
it reminds of terms like "White Supremacist" . I said, "Well you call
yourself a sadomasochist, and some people in the D/S community don't
like that word for similar reasons." Anybody can say they don't like a
word. Still, gynosupremacists need at least one word to distinguish
themselves from those who don't care who's on top, and those who prefer
men on top. We believe in and live a female-dominant lifestyle. You
don't have to be into S/M to be a gynosupremacist, but if you are then
you are a sadomasochistic gynosupremacist, like me.
Now I'll tell you what gynosupremacists aren't: we aren't
sexists. All men and women are equal under the Goddess. She is the
mother of us all, and loves us all equally. In my religion, each
person is divinely authorized to be an agent for the Goddess or God.
We assert that the body, the world, and life itself is sacred,
deserving respect and preservation, and yes, I do want to see those
values reflected in my daily life.
We see the beauty and divinity of both sexes. We assert the
divinity of the female. This serves to balance the overwhelmingly
pro-male propaganda that this patriarchal social system insists on
force-feeding everyone. We demand that the Goddess's right to equal
time, and woman's right to fair deal be respected. Gynosupremacy is a
perfectly reasonable philosophy and way of life. Those of us who
practice it demand the right to live and love in the way that seems
best for ourselves, free from undue interference.
Woman is on the rise, under the watchful, approving gaze of the
Goddess. This is for the benefit of all people. This is my belief,
and if you believe as I do then you've got a sister in me.

© 1994 L.Goodwin



--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 18:07:24 -0800
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604040205.SAA20135@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura Goodwin wrote:

We seem to have a couple of guys posting to this list who absolutely,
positively do not get it. I believe that the energy we waste trying to
tug them into shape could be channelled more productively. I don't
want to be defending my life and worldview on this list, and if you
really think about it, neither do you.

Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now. If I am the one who
is wrong and should shut up, tell me now, so I can unsubscribe and get
on with my busy life.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)


I couldn't agree with Ms Goodwin more!! I originally found this list
extremely positive and refreshing because it paralleled my ideals and
beliefs in female supremacy. The recent argumentative comments made by the
subscribers referred to by Ms Goodwin are extremely counter productive to
our cause. We already have to swim upstream and battle the current in our
everyday lives. We don't need to fight the same battles on this list. My
vote is to limit the list to advocates only.

Mark Gajb

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:52:31 -0500 (EST)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I seriously think some of you have some severe mental problems...





the subject "help".

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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Poison apple?
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Thoughts
Re: my favorite kind of people
Re: my favorite kind of people
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Thoughts
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
What I'm up to (ULC/SMC, FYI) :)
OK, now let's try this...
Who the heck I think I am (not that you asked) ;)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:30:32 -0500
From: bo109@freenet.carleton.ca (Lloyd Ellam)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604032130.QAA08247@freenet3.carleton.ca


You wrote:

Dear Laura.

Please do not consider leaving.

You are our leader.

Thank you, you are sweet, but I'm not a leader here, just one more
voice.
--
Laura Goodwin
Yes but a very good voice. Please dont leave just delete.
Lloyd
"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:36:49 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199604032136.NAA26765@netcom17.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1323

'Twas I who first introduced the 'dead ass' usage, thus:

Left to his own devices, Adam would still be parked in front
of the tube in his underwear, content with his beer and chips.
'Twas Eve (_Ava_, the Hebrew word for 'Woman,' btw) who got Adam
up off his dead ass and out of the house to look for a _job_.


I'll take full responsibility for doing that. It was quite intentional,
but I apologize if anyone was really offended.

I will still stick to my contention that -in this version of the OT
creation myth at least- it was Eve who was more disposed to connect
with the Real World than was Adam, which reflects my view of modern women.

And, no, I don't want to get into an unproductive spate of OT criticism
here- it's 'waaay the wrong forum for that. Write privately if you must.

But I am the 'dead ass' man. End of _that_ story, I hope.
Peace.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:41:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonathan Krall
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:
Anyone who questions whether Matriarchies existed and worked
wonderfully should do the homework _before_ they attempt to participate
on this list. Anyone who questions the reality of women's modern-day
oppression has not done their homework. Anyone who says that women are
no better than men and wouldn't necessarily rule more wisely doesn't
belong on this list...they should find a NG such as soc.men and air
their views there.

I agree. Anyone with eyes open and bullshit detector turned on
knows that female viewpoints are underrepresented in our society (where
an actress has to play a hooker to get noticed). Sie also knows that
matriarchies have worked well in the past (human history is long enough
that it _must_ have happened at least once :) ). Sie also knows that
the patriarchy we are in right now isn't working as well as we would
like.

I feel that these points are part of the common ground upon which this
list is built. People who do not agree with the premise of the list
should not participate in it. There is a very practical reason for this -
if we agree on the basics, we can have a good time discussing more
advanced topics.

I also feel that these are good reasons for advancing a female supremacist
agenda even if one doesn't take the superiority of women as an article of
faith. This last point is important to me in particular, since I'm such a
skeptic.

I'm on this list for the political reasons outlined above and for personal
reasons (basically, I like it).

In case it isn't obvious yet, Dee-Ann and Laura's efforts to police this
list have my full support and I thank them.

Jonathan


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:36:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199604032136.NAA00541@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1102

Laura Goodwin wrote:

I agree. I feel that the system itself must be radically reformed, or
even abolished, but in favor of what? We need to consider well what we
would like to change it in favor of. The problem must be
addressed/attacked in many ways and by many different kinds of people.
Everyone/anyone can play an important role. I wish more people would
get fired up on their own behalf, but few do.

Well, here I see some opportunity for some positive discussion. What
kind of "system" might work better than what we have now? Let's not
give answers in forms of "isms" because not everyone's "isms" mean the
same thing. Let's talk about this as though none of us had common
definitions for any political systems, and try to build something
amongst ourselves that we think could work.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 16:25:22 -0500
From: bcom
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: my favorite kind of people
Message-ID: <3162ECC2.63C3@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:

Mark Bedell wrote:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the
house = to look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women
would rule the world today; but I doubt it.

This was a *wildly* inappropriate remark, and has no place here.

actually his was not offensive but insightful. maybe then woman would
rule. entertaining different scenarios ain't all bad. the "dead ass"
bit was a little much. And it was also the first time I've gotten even
a chuckle from this group in a very long time.

*This* was a wildly inappropriate remark, and has no place here.

You are getting more and more offensive, and it's getting tiresome.
This is your first warning. Second gets you removed from the list.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

There, now. That is an appropriate remark, and gave me a big fat
smile. :) Thank You, Dee-Ann.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".the problem with too many of you is that instead of believing in your
superiority you not only wimper but rely on ancient history. women are
superior. i have known that since i was a young boy on my mothers knee.
you just refuse to acknowledge it in your own minds. men know if why
don't women? i'm not only talking physically, which if you didn't hold
back and fake it for fear of being judged too masculine, but
immotionally. a women should take charge of the home. it certainly would
be more placid and efficient with a women wearing the pants. can we keep
a dialog going in todays terms not ancient history. i have always loved
tall, strong,assertive women so dont take anything i have written
negatively. stan

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 16:30:48 -0500
From: bcom
To: bcom
CC: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: my favorite kind of people
Message-ID: <3162EE08.2153@netrunner.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

bcom wrote:

Laura Goodwin wrote:

Mark Bedell wrote:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the
house = to look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women
would rule the world today; but I doubt it.

This was a *wildly* inappropriate remark, and has no place here.

actually his was not offensive but insightful. maybe then woman would
rule. entertaining different scenarios ain't all bad. the "dead ass"
bit was a little much. And it was also the first time I've gotten even
a chuckle from this group in a very long time.

*This* was a wildly inappropriate remark, and has no place here.

You are getting more and more offensive, and it's getting tiresome.
This is your first warning. Second gets you removed from the list.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

There, now. That is an appropriate remark, and gave me a big fat
smile. :) Thank You, Dee-Ann.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".the problem with too many of you is that instead of believing in
your
superiority you not only wimper but rely on ancient history. women are
superior. i have known that since i was a young boy on my mothers knee.
you just refuse to acknowledge it in your own minds. men know it why
don't women? i'm not only talking physically, which if you didn't hold
back and fake it for fear of being judged too masculine, but
immotionally. a women should take charge of the home. it certainly would
be more placid and efficient with a women wearing the pants. can we keep
a dialog going in todays terms not ancient history. i have always loved
tall, strong,assertive women so dont take anything i have written
negatively. stanbcom@netrunnernet.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:35:38 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604032235.OAA02836@netcom17.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3250

Laura Goodwin wrote (in part):

I don't
want to be defending my life and worldview on this list, and if you
really think about it, neither do you.

True, I don't. It's a waste of energy. My life and convictions
are hard-earned, the result of many years of experience, and
I find it pointless and tiring to try to justify them over and
over and over again. I'm not here to convert anyone to my way
of thinking or to _prove_ anything. All I ask is respect and
good manners and some thought and effort on the part of others
here. I offer the same in good faith.

I'm trying to look at the future, and not to engage in endless
dissections of the past, mindful as I am of its important lessons.

I feel that discussions about how mean women can be and how men are
unfairly treated already do not belong on this list. Women should be
spoken of respectfully on this list, since this is our haven.

True. Although I feel safe and somewhat at home here, I have
always felt this was Womanspace first and foremost, even when
I might disagree with a particular woman's views. No woman here
has ever treated me disrespectfully or made me feel unwelcome,
even when I'm on one of my private soap boxes, and the least I
can do is return the courtesy in a place where I am a guest.

This is a place -a moderated mail list- established to discover
and validate the potential of Womanhood, dogmatic as that might
sound. My opinion only, and I agree with Dee's post (below) that
there is no 'correct' view of Female Supremacy. But I suppose I
must agree that one of the givens is that those here are already
'converted.' One does not evangelize choirs- one gathers with
them to make beautiful sounds. Lyric fascism? So be it. :P

Anyone who questions whether Matriarchies existed and worked
wonderfully should do the homework _before_ they attempt to participate
on this list. Anyone who questions the reality of women's modern-day
oppression has not done their homework. Anyone who says that women are
no better than men and wouldn't necessarily rule more wisely doesn't
belong on this list...they should find a NG such as soc.men and air
their views there.

Or on alt.feminism, or alt.feminazis or alt.women.supremacy.

I may disagree with Laura (or anyone else) on some of the details
of history or social fact, but have found it pointless to dwell
on the (usually minor) differences between us. Instead, I ask

Laura, what do have in common? Where do we agree?
What do we build on?

And go from there, being prepared to learn from women wherever I
can, and to build on our common humanity.

Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now.

I vote AYE.

--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:55:10 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199604032255.OAA05033@netcom17.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1245

Dee-Ann wrote:

Well, here I see some opportunity for some positive discussion. What
kind of "system" might work better than what we have now? Let's not
give answers in forms of "isms" because not everyone's "isms" mean the
same thing. Let's talk about this as though none of us had common
definitions for any political systems, and try to build something
amongst ourselves that we think could work.

Bingo!

Wasn't it Holly (of blessed memory) who called ideology
-any ideology- 'the malest of all vanities' in that it is an
attempt to subdue Chaos? To impose mechanical order on a garden?

Please, yes: away with the 'isms.' But how?

The Wise Woman who named me coyote sings once proposed that folks
have a good careful reading of Ursula K LeGuin's work- all of it.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:15:33 -0500
From: Lonely9402@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-ID: <960403201532_368608533@mail04

In a message dated 96-04-03 10:09:04 EST, you write:

Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now. If I am the one who
is wrong and should shut up, tell me now, so I can unsubscribe and get
on with my busy life.

I am content with the idea of female supremacy.

OUCH! I delurked.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:33:17 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: What I'm up to (ULC/SMC, FYI) :)
Message-Id: <199604040133.RAA28777@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

Couple of form letters I send out to explain my doings in CT for your
file. :)

UNITED LEATHERFOLK of CONNECTICUT
POB 281172 EAST HARTFORD, CT 06128-1172 E-mail:
ulofct@aol.com


Thank you for your inquiry. My name is Laura Goodwin, and I am founder
and facilitator of the U.L.C. What we have here is a friendly,
informal social/support group for men and women who practice erotic
dominance in its many forms.

Our philosophy is simple: we believe that bondage and discipline,
fantasy role-play, sensual sadomasochism, erotic "torture" etc. can be
a satisfying part of a well-balanced life. We believe that B&D, D&S,
S/M activities can be a positive part of a loving relationship. We
assert that dominance practitioners are as deserving as anyone of
life's joys, and we unite to help each other to claim those joys.

A BRIEF HISTORY OF OUR ORGANIZATION
My slave husband and I moved to Connecticut from Colorado, where we had
been active in a club (which I founded) named Denver Area Dominants and
Submissives. D.A.D.S. had been active for five years and was very
successful. Through that group we met hundreds of wonderful people,
many of whom became dear friends. Once we became settled here we
realized that there was no similar club nearby, so we decided to get
one started.

In March 1990 U.L.C. held our first meeting, and we've been going
strong ever since. We have gradually built a very loving community of
friends, and an international reputation. Although we get mail and
visitors from all over, our aim will always be to remain a comfortable,
private club for local leatherfolk of all persuasions.

WHAT TO EXPECT
We meet in each other's homes on Saturday evening every two weeks, for
circle discussion and fellowship. We share information and ideas, and
occasionally demonstrate useful techniques. You'll get exposed to a
wealth of viewpoints, and will no doubt meet a number of people with
whom you may "click". Whether you are "Top" or "bottom" (or both) you
will be respected here, and we ask that you treat other members with
gentle courtesy. With everyone's cooperation we can keep our meetings
a pleasant place to learn, and make friends. Periodically you may get
invited to a party, which is a good chance to dress up in your favorite
fetish gear and play. Monitors ensure safety and psychic comfort for
all.

There is no membership fee. Parties are non-commercial social affairs.
We do pass the hat for donations at meetings, and any contribution
helps us to keep going. We accept stories, articles and art for our
quarterly newsletter, which is free to active members. We can't
guarantee you a "date", but we can make your life a lot nicer in dozens
of ways.

NOW, TELL US ABOUT YOU
If you would like to be considered for membership, please write me a
brief letter describing yourself and your fetish interests (even if you
did, already) and,if snailmail, include a self-addressed, stamped
envelope. If I like your letter I'll send you a number to call.

Sincerely Yours,
Laura Goodwin

-----------------------------------------------------------------
NORTHEASTERN REGION ESSEMIAN SANCTUARY OF THE GODDESS
The Service of Mankind Church east coast chapter AKA "SMC East"
P.O. Box 281172 East Hartford, CT 16128-1172
DIRECTOR: LAURA GOODWIN, HPs.
LaLaura@ix.netcom.com
http://www.darkside-goddess.org

Thank you for your inquiry. S.M.C. East is the first officially
established chapter of the Service of Mankind Church. Our church,
founded in 1979, is dedicated to honoring and fulfilling the revealed
will of the Goddess. We currently have approximately 400 active
members, most of whom participate in the Bay Area Mother Church.

Rituals of male submission to the Eternal Female are an important part
of our spiritual practice. Only active members in good standing are
allowed to participate in S.M.C. East activities. Proof of membership
will be required. This is to ensure that all who are in attendance are
familiar with our precepts and mystique. ***For information about
receiving an up-to-date membership card, write to S.M.C. P.O. Box 1335
El Cerrito, Ca. 94530. (Include S.A.S.E.) *** There is a moderate
annual membership fee.

If you are already a member you know we have a quality newsletter
which includes my widely admired column WE ARE US. As Director and
High Priestess of the chapter, I am responsible for speading the good
news about our Goddess and Her powerful love. I also foster the
strength of the church through promoting the growth and health of this
chapter. I accomplish this in a number of ways, most importantly by
encouraging friendly relationships between members, and by providing
emotional and spiritual support for individuals, couples, and our group
as a whole.

We have support group meetings, parties, and rituals. Counseling and
metaphysical training is also available (NOTE: *Not commercial BDSM
sessions*) Our church is specifically and sincerely a spiritual
community for those who worship the Goddess and practice the Female
Dominance lifestyle. The Goddess has certainly blessed this venture
and we are destined to prosper, and I would be happy to have your
participation.

For more information about our chapter's (members only) activities,
please write again (include S.A.S.E., please) or e-mail me at
*lalaura@ix.netcom.com* and please include your membership number.

Sincerely Yours, Laura Goodwin, HPs.


--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:47:57 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: OK, now let's try this...
Message-Id: <199604040147.RAA20672@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

OK, now, if anyone, _after_ familiarizing themselves with what I just
sent to the list, would like to discuss, in a civilized,
non-confrontational manner, what I believe in or do/don't understand,
then please let's do. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:45:38 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Who the heck I think I am (not that you asked) ;)
Message-Id: <199604040145.RAA19026@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com

About Baroness Laura Goodwin, HPs.

Laura Goodwin, born 7/31/54, is an influential and widely admired
leatherfolk advocate and female supremacist. She has been a Priestess
of the Goddess-worshipping Service of Mankind Church (SMC) since 1983.
In 1994 she established, in Hartford CT, the first official chapter of
SMC (the Northeastern Essemian Sanctuary of the Darkside Goddess, AKA
SMC East) and is High Priestess and chief administrator of same. She
is a former Duchess, and is currently Baroness of Hartford County for
the Imperial Court of CT.

She founded and led the first ever pansexual S/M support group in the
Rocky Mountain Region, the Denver Area Dominants and Submissives (DADS)
(now defunct). During the 5 years that DADS was active, she wrote a
sexual advice column for two Denver adult papers, the Rocky Mountain
Oyster, and the Pleasure Guide while personally bringing hundreds of
B&D enthusiasts out of the closet. She gave several public lectures
about alternative lifestyles. She made many radio and T.V. appearances
promoting tolerance for the D&S lifestyle at that time, and many times
since.

When the Reverend Laura Goodwin moved with her slave husband and their
children to Connecticut, they found no S/M support group nearby so they
founded the United Leatherfolk of Connecticut, a non-profit, non-public
D&S lifestyle support group and friendship circle. Established in
March 1990, ULC is going strong years later, and is famous for being an
especially warm and genuinely supportive club. Laura is sole
Administrator of ULC, and takes personal responsibility for her
member's well-being and the health of the club's spirit.

She has given numerous instructional talks and demos at conventions
such as the NLA's Living In Leather, and Leatherworld. In 1991, Ms.
Laura Goodwin became Ms. National Leather Association '91-92 (the first
*international* Ms. NLA). At the end of her title year, she was
nominated for three Pantheon of Leather awards, including Woman of the
Year. That year, Laura was also nominated for the NLA Co-Chair
position.

Ms. Goodwin is a writer, and currently contributes a regular column to
*Echoes from the Sanctuary*, (SMC's newsletter), *Flesh and Blood*
(AOL's on-line S/M magazine) and is a foriegn correspondant for
*SkinTwo Online*. She also publishes the ULC's newsletter *The
Leatherfolk Connection*. Her articles have appeared in numerous
magazines and newsletters.

Laura is happily married and has two branded slaves, her husband Bruce,
and her woman Janine. She enjoys human ownership, domestic and sexual
servitude, erotic sadomasochism (especially discipline) and fetish
dressing (especially in leather). She loves to party with trusted
friends.

For info about SMC, please snailmail SMC POB 1335 El Cerrito, Ca. 94530
(Include S.A.S.E. please)

For info about ULC (for New England residents only) e-mail
ulofct@aol.com or snailmail POB 281172 East Hartford, CT 06128-1172
(Include S.A.S.E, please).




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: About Hello
Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: About Hello
Re: She blinded me with *science*
Re: Hello
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
equality
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Poison apple?
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Poison apple?
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Re: Poison apple?
STAY AWHILE LONGER
Re: Hello
"Problem" posters and dissenting opinions

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:39:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now. If I am the one who
is wrong and should shut up, tell me now, so I can unsubscribe and get
on with my busy life.
--
Laura Goodwin

I agree 100% with Laura. I view this list as I would an invitation to a
good friend's house, and would not repay this invitation by being boorish
and insulting. Those who want argument can find it in the NGs, but this
is a moderated list dedicated to the exploration of Female Supremacy.

Peace, My Friends,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:03:40 -0500
From: "Chuck Hopkins"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604031605.LAA15022@zeus.netset.com

Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now. If I am the one who
is wrong and should shut up, tell me now, so I can unsubscribe and get
on with my busy life.
--
Laura Goodwin

I have to agree as well. Mailing Lists are intended as a positive
channel of discussion, an alternative to the general abrasive tones
the usenet. I have just joined this list, and have already seen two
individuals act in an immature fashion. I have no problems with a
difference of opinions, as long as those opinions are expressed in a
positive manner.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 03 Apr 96 12:20:40 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-ID: <960403172039_100604.1736_GHW127-1@CompuServe.COM

Dee-Ann

You are another person for whom I have the utmost respect.

I have been reading your messages. And all I can say is
Thank You.

I am a male who has now discovered that
he would like to spend his remaining years
serving what he regards as the superior sex.

Finding this mailing service has opened my
eyes to so many things.


Abie

internet:100604,1736@compuserve.com


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 03 Apr 96 12:20:49 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-ID: <960403172048_100604.1736_GHW127-3@CompuServe.COM

Dear Laura.

Please do not consider leaving.

You are our leader.

The people who come on this service and are offensive should
be ignored.

As a male who wishes to serve females in their full glory,
I look up to you. And I am sure that virtually all of the
the males on this hook-up are of the same mind.

It would be dreadful if you, our inspiration, were
to leave. Please stay.


Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 03 Apr 96 12:20:45 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-ID: <960403172044_100604.1736_GHW127-2@CompuServe.COM

Through this superb Semprem service
I have received The Gothic Tower
which I am now reading with great interest.

Is it possible that someone might send
me an encoded version of the Horsewoman?

I am finding The Gothic Tower - having
read half of it - interesting. I think
it is flawed to a certain extent, because
doubts are being cast about the sumpremacy
of females. My view is that if
women accept the superior role
they should go with it all the way
and the males who are prepared
to serve should also take the same attitude.

And, once again, I would like to put
it on record that I think Laura Goodwin
is doing a wonderful job in keeping
us all in perspective.

Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:30:33 -0500
From: bo109@freenet.carleton.ca (Lloyd Ellam)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She blinded me with *science*
Message-Id: <199604031730.MAA13908@freenet3.carleton.ca


Kilroy wrote:

You remind me of the group that was against testing makeup products on
monkeys and rabbits. Would you rather they tested those products on
YOU?

I feel that Kilroy's comments and reveal a deep desire to argue and
fight, instead of exchange ideas in a civilized manner, and I ask that
he be removed from the list.




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


I find it just as easy to delete him. Termination gives him
more credit than he deserves.
Lloyd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:43:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Christopher Harsman" <99charsh@ultrix.uor.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

Kilroy wrote:

this particular survey was apparently created by a group
intent on finding out how badly men treat women. If this is in fact
true then I would think the questions would be bent in that direction.

Yes, dare to dream that some people actually think it's time to
actively uncover the truth about the average woman's miserable
conditions.

IMHO, it seems as though 'kilroy' was merely trying to point out (in this
instance) that surveys _can_ be tilted, and that the results from said
surveys are _quite often_ slanted, in presentation if not results. And I
won't even begin to discuss the loose applications you can give to ANY
statistic. To take an example... You can take a statistic such as
"50.1% of the nation's prison population is black, while only 14% of the
nation's population is black," (numbers are arbitrary) to mean:

a) blacks are more prone to criminal behaviours (whatever the root cause)
b) more cops are racist than are not
c) blacks don't have good karma guiding them; as aresult, their bad luck
results in more captures... etc.

Statistics are inherently unreliable and very prone to manipulation and
spin-doctoring. Take all such 'evidence' (no matter which side presents
it) with a certain grain of salt.


Chris Harshman_______________________________________XCC System Administrator
I'm the fearless leader of the XCC, some of the most foul, cruel, and
bad-tempered Netizens you've ever set eyes on! I'm also Racer #420
in Team Festiva, proudly sponsored by the Psychic Friends Network.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 03 Apr 96 12:08:20 EST
From: Jens Reinhardt <100744.1745@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-ID: <960403170820_100744.1745_EHV32-1@CompuServe.COM

Dear Laura Goodwin,

I am really very sorry to see that the discussion is degenerated this way.
You wrote:

Anyone who questions whether Matriarchies existed and worked
wonderfully should do the homework _before_ they attempt to participate
on this list. Anyone who questions the reality of women's modern-day
oppression has not done their homework. Anyone who says that women are
no better than men and wouldn't necessarily rule more wisely doesn't
belong on this list...they should find a NG such as soc.men and air
their views there.

Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now. If I am the one who
is wrong and should shut up, tell me now, so I can unsubscribe and get
on with my busy life.

Can this really be? Is this a discussion anymore? I really was interested in
female supremacy topics. But if people who want to explain it are no longer
willing to explain it ... how do you want to get people to understand your point
of view? You say that research is done...may I say that I doubt that your
arguments are the only ones existing on this topic?

I never wanted to say that females are worse than males. And I believe that
there are many things in the way of female thinking and living that are good and
perhaps better than in males. And I believe that there are many reasons for
female supremacy in a relationship. But I also think that this should not be
seen dogmatically.
If women are so perfect and males are so unworthy, why in the world should it be
useful for women to rule men? It would be unnecessary (or unintelligent) for
women to dominate a society where one half of the population is not worth to
think about, let alone to discuss with. Then it would be enough to concentrate
the discussion on "female" topics.

I must say that a style of discussion where on part is too arrogant to explain
his (or Her) wishes, ideas and thoughts to others, increases my doubts in female
supremacy - at least in a political way. If you don't want to answer
"degenerated" mails, then don't. This is no reason to unsubscribe. But if it is
no longer allowed to make critical remarks on this topic on the femsupremacy
list (this reminds me of a very bad time in history over here in Germany), I
will unsubscribe.

Jens


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:08:14 -0500 (EST)
From: David Gavinberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: equality
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I have been a silent observer of this mailing list for some time now. I
became a part of it to learn more about feminism for a college paper I am
writing. I think there are some people out there who don't understand
what this mailing list is about and should unsubcribe.

Overall I don't have many quarels with the opinions of some of the
subscribers. The one thing that is bothering me is, that we already have
a society runned by one gender, and to some, it isn't run well. I have
seen some opinions that the society should be dominated by females. What
I don't understand is if one gender isn't doing well, how could another
be better...

My thought on the whole matter is both genders should responsible to
govern a society. I know it is a long way from happening, but with the
attitude that females should dominate society, it will be even longer
before we live in a peaceful society.

Dennis





the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:38:30 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604031838.UAA25648@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now. If I am the one who
is wrong and should shut up, tell me now, so I can unsubscribe and get
on with my busy life.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

No Laura , please do not leave this list. Your spirit keeps it up.
I truly love to read your opinnions and you are right, discussion goes some
strange ways on this list at the moment.
But your activism and believe in our ideas gives me and i am sure several
others on this list a very good reason to check the mail every day.

* * *
* * * ** *
* ** * *
* ** *
* * *
* * *
* *
* *
****
**
** *
*** *
** *
***
**

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:44:45 -0800
From: robertr@WK.COM (ROBERT RASMUSSEN)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

actually his was not offensive but insightful. maybe then woman would rule.
entertaining different scenarios ain't all bad. the "dead ass" bit was a
little much. And it was also the first time I've gotten even a chuckle from
this group in a very long time. thanks mark____________r.rasmussen

Mark Bedell wrote:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the house =
to
look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women would rule the
world today; but I doubt it.

You are getting more and more offensive, and it's getting tiresome. I
don't know if you're here to genuinely talk, or just to make pokes at
people who don't agree with you, but I suggest that you calm it down.
This is your first warning. Second gets you removed from the list.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:33:58 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604031933.LAA06993@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

Jens wrote:
And I believe that there are many reasons for
female supremacy in a relationship. But I also think that this should
not be seen dogmatically.

I agree...

I must say that a style of discussion where on part is too arrogant to
explain his (or Her) wishes, ideas and thoughts to others, increases
my doubts in female supremacy - at least in a political way.

Nice try, but that's a red herring.

I don't feel it's *my* job to explain the whole femsupremacy idea,
which is a huge, multifaceted topic. Read a book. Get with the
program, and if you are really interested and polite about it I'll be
happy to explain my take on it, as would anyone else here. That is not
arrogance, that's maximizing my enjoyment of my friendships on this
list, while minimizing aggravations caused by unproductive and
repetitive interactions with those who are determined to do no
homework.

This is no reason to unsubscribe.

I agree. There is no reason for *me* to unsubscribe. I belong here.

But if it is no longer allowed to make critical remarks on this topic
on the femsupremacy list (this reminds me of a very bad time in
history over here in Germany), I will unsubscribe.

Oh, yeah, anytime someone criticizes your inappropriate behavior, be
sure to hint that they are like a Nazi. Nice try.




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:15:49 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604031915.LAA16152@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

Dear Laura.

Please do not consider leaving.

You are our leader.

Thank you, you are sweet, but I'm not a leader here, just one more
voice.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:20:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199604031920.LAA09526@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ROBERT RASMUSSEN wrote:
actually his was not offensive but insightful. maybe then woman would rule.
entertaining different scenarios ain't all bad. the "dead ass" bit was a
little much. And it was also the first time I've gotten even a chuckle from
this group in a very long time. thanks mark____________r.rasmussen

Y'know, I don't agree with the sentiment that only those who agree 100%
with every female-centric view belong here, but.... Mark's general com-
mentary has been actively hostile towards any concept of female supremacy,
and a good deal of it, such as his "dead ass" bit hasn't been insightful at
all, but yes, offensive, imnsho.

Adam, Eve, an' the apple. Personally, looking into the bible I find a lot of
evidence to suggest that the christian deity, if real, is not a benevolent
one. Eve's inciting adam to eat the apple could be viewed as a heroic act of
leadership and rebellion against he who said "Thou shalt not eat this apple",
which is generally taken to be a metaphor for knowledge/wisdom/freedom, in
which case it was Adam who wouldn't get up off his dead ass, as long as he
had food, drink, and the Garden of Eden's equivalent of sunday football, and
yes, I know this is a runon sentence. ;-

Alternatively - Adam had the bright idea of eating the apple, and blamed it
on Eve, thinking that mebbe he'd get off the hook. Typical human trait...
Personally, I think they should've taken a gordian knot solution from the
getgo, and burned down the tree to forever remove themselves from temptation.
"But, God - you only said we shouldn't _eat_ the apple." If Yahwah, a male
deity if ever I saw one, didn't want them to eat it, he should've put a wall
around it.

-- \_awless is : Aliena's wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:41:21 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604031941.LAA02969@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com

No Laura , please do not leave this list. Your spirit keeps it up.

But your activism and believe in our ideas gives me and i am sure
several others on this list a very good reason to check the mail every
day.

Bernd

Bernd, Thanks a lot for your kind words of encouragement.

I must say I have met some wonderful men and women on this list. I
would miss you. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 03 Apr 96 15:14:34 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-ID: <960403201434_100604.1736_GHW98-1@CompuServe.COM

Brent wroteNo Laura , please do not leave this list. Your spirit keeps it up.
I truly love to read your opinnions and you are right, discussion goes some
strange ways on this list at the moment.<<

To which I would like to subscribe. I am one of the many
others who wants Laura to stay. I respect her
for her strict and sound advice.

Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:46:30 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199604031946.LAA03198@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com

Mark Bedell wrote:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the
house = to look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women
would rule the world today; but I doubt it.

This was a *wildly* inappropriate remark, and has no place here.

actually his was not offensive but insightful. maybe then woman would
rule. entertaining different scenarios ain't all bad. the "dead ass"
bit was a little much. And it was also the first time I've gotten even
a chuckle from this group in a very long time.

*This* was a wildly inappropriate remark, and has no place here.

You are getting more and more offensive, and it's getting tiresome.
This is your first warning. Second gets you removed from the list.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

There, now. That is an appropriate remark, and gave me a big fat
smile. :) Thank You, Dee-Ann.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 03 Apr 96 15:31:43 EST
From: "Dennis O'Hara" <101342.2030@compuserve.com
To: FS
Subject: STAY AWHILE LONGER
Message-ID: <960403203142_101342.2030_GHW144-1@CompuServe.COM

This list is nothing without Laura Goodwin and Dee-Ann. EVERYONE should convince
them to stay !!

I have written two contributions so far, and I earnestly hope that neither
caused offence, but what would be the point in continuing to contribute to a
list about Female Supremacy if there are no Female Supremists to act as mentors
??

Dennis (The Older Male)

Long Live The Group !!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:59:00 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199604031959.LAA21188@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com

Chris H. wrote:

Statistics are inherently unreliable and very prone to manipulation
and spin-doctoring. Take all such 'evidence' (no matter which side
presents it) with a certain grain of salt.

Don't discount important data. Much labor has been done and many risks
have been taken and many have devoted and even risked their lives to
bring the truth. Don't say, "You can't trust all statistics and
interpretations thereof, so don't trust any." That's a dangerous
fallacy which legitimizes passivity, timidity and mental sloth.

True, spoons can be used to kill, and hairspray can be used to blind,
and statistics can be used to confuse and distort. Be aware of these
things and protect yourself against them. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:19:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: "Problem" posters and dissenting opinions
Message-Id: <199604032119.NAA00519@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2656

The people I forcibly remove from the list are flamers or _obvious_
flame-baiters. Aside from a few inappropriate comments (for which
Mark Bedell has been warned) he has not posted flames, and it could be
argued that a large percentage of his stuff is more oriented toward
discussion (though perhaps ornery discussion) than flame-baiting. I'm
not going to go into his discussion style here, but finish reading
this post before responding or making any decisions.

I keep seeing calls for more positive discussion, but I don't see
anyone _starting_ positive discussion. It's not going to magically
appear, folks, someone has to start it up so people can participate
and share their ideas. If you don't like the negative posts, don't
respond to them. If the person is there to just stir up trouble, they
will get bored and/or frustrated not getting the attention and leave,
just like in the newsgroups. Or, they will resort to flames or
flame-baiting and be removed and possibly banned from the list. I
work hard not to remove people simply because of their opinions.
Being presented with opposing opinions on occasion is one way of
making us re-evaluate our own beliefs, and is healthy as long as we
don't let it become too disruptive. As long as _we_ don't _let it_.

Remember, discussions happen because someone starts them. You want to
have a positive discussion, start one. Throw out some topic ideas.

I also want to address the idea of "explaining Female Supremacy." One
problem with explaining it...there isn't a central "doctrine" for FS.
We can discuss what it means to us, but no one can (or should) say,
"this is how it is, this is how it should work, do it this way."
These are, of course, my opinions. :) And, well, after you've stated
your position on something time and time again, it gets plain old
having to restate it. Perhaps some folks would like to write up how
they approach FS and we can put it in an archive for people who come
later to access.

My suggestion is this. Those who are believers in FS should certainly
not unsubscribe. Some folks on this list, however, may want to
re-analyze why they are here. If you're just here to stir up trouble,
you're not going to last much longer. If you're here to try to
discuss and learn, you'll get much better responses by approaching
people with a better attitude.

Dee-Ann
List Admin












the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:
Re: About Hello
Re: Poison apple?
Re: Hello
Re: About Hello
Re: a femdom world
Re: Poison apple?
Re: About Hello
Re: About Hello
Re: MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
Re: a femdom world
Re: Poison apple?
Re: She blinded me with *science*
Re: Poison apple?
Re: Hello
Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:44:18 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id: <199604030544.VAA21254@netcom17.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2024

Mark Bedell wrote

after I wrote this:

My bedrock assertion for most of the last 18 months in this
forum has been to the effect that "I can trust women more than I
can trust men."

Why can't you trust men? Not to say that you may have been doublecrossed by
all of the men in your life (that happens at it's worst), but that certainly
doesn't mean that you shouldn't trust any of them. Not only that but can
you honestly say that no woman has ever doublecrossed you?

Actually that was meant as a positive (even if it didn't come
out that way): 'I generally trust men, but have learned that I
can trust women even more,' might be more like it.

Sure, some women have doublecrossed me, but not that many.
Men, several more than women.

In general, I recommend trusting everybody until one has
reason not to. Some times you will get burned, but that's
just life in the big city. I would rather load my karma
that way than the other.

I also meant 'trust' in the sense of 'rely upon.'
And again, the assertion is relative, rather than an absolute.

Heavens no your not wrong!!! What ever works for you must be correct for
you. I wonder though, is your way supposed to be correct for me or anyone
else?

No, not at all. What I was doing was validating my own
experience as a guide for my life. I do recommend your _experience_
as a valid pointer to your truth.
"If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..."

Mark continues:

But widening our horizons also means putting trust in that which we
instinctively don't trust. In trying someone elses way of thinking to see
if it works.

Right! Take that jump, that risk, that 'leap of faith.'
That's how we learn and grow.

Thank you. :)
c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:02:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199604030602.WAA00121@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 787

Mark Bedell wrote:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the house to
look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women would rule the
world today; but I doubt it.

You are getting more and more offensive, and it's getting tiresome. I
don't know if you're here to genuinely talk, or just to make pokes at
people who don't agree with you, but I suggest that you calm it down.
This is your first warning. Second gets you removed from the list.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 22:57 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

{Lots of good stuff clipped}

And, guess what, partner beating happens in same sex couples too.
It's not so much a gender issue thing as a power thing.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on this point. I say unfortunately
because it shouldn't happen in same gender anymore than it should happen in
different gender relationships. It's just sad that it happens.

Yet if we take the
surveys raw data (instead of the socalled conclusions) and draw our own
conclusions we find that in almost every catagory of what is considered
"abuse" women far out number the men as abusers.

Personally, I would think the numbers are closer to equal. Once
again, I state that I don't trust the "surveys" because they're
usually slanted through their wording, and purposely or accidentally
slated through who they asked. I try to go more by what I discover in

Like you I tend not to trust surveys as they can't be counted on NOT to be
slanted. Yet this particular survey was apparently created by a group
intent on finding out how badly men treat women. If this is in fact true
then I would think the questions would be bent in that direction. The
survey was given to a company who's job it is to insure that as randoma
sample as possible are given the survey; and yet it seems the survey was
given to more women than men. Again another lean to one direction. Even
still, the results came back horribly on the wrong side from what this group
was hopping to prove. So instead they just missrepresented the data so it
would come out their way. They apparently didn't lie but they did missrepresent.

my own life...I know a lot of women who have been raped. I know men
who have been raped, both by other men and by women. I don't know a
lot of people who were beaten by their partners. I know more people
who were emotionally abused by their partners, which can be a more
lasting kind of damage. In most cases, I can replace partners with
parents.

I guess I live a sheltered life as I don't know but one possibly two women
who have been rapped or claimed to have been, and no men. I do however know
plenty of people who have been on both sides of the emotional abuse side of
the house. In my opinion it is worse than physical (no I don't know anyone
who is being physicaly assualted either). Physical bruses will heal in
time, emotional ones may never heal. I have even been a person who has
emotionally abuse someone. Not necessarily on purpose and not on a
continuing basis. But I do know that the worst weapon to use against someone
is the truth. This hurts more than anything else you can say.

Because while people/nations/whatever have the right to defend
themselves, "two wrongs don't make a right," it's no better to turn
around and then wipe out the other person/nation/whatever. The object
is to stop the immediate threat, and then figure out what the heck
happened in the first place.

I agree that two wrongs don't make a right; but acceptance of this fact will
not change the way society thinks and it is society that I have to watch out
for. Meaning, a woman scratches her ex-husbands face because she doesn't
want him taking the kids over easter (or Christmas, or any other holiday).
She does this to the point of drawing blood (a lot of it). He pushes her
down on the couch. (not "hit her" or "pick her up and drop her", etc. just
pushes her). She calls the police and claims that he was beating her and HE
goes to jail! Extreem case? Maybe. But it really happened to someone I know.
That's society speaking. How do we change the way society thinks?

Same thing for men and women. I do not support men hurting women in anyway
nor do I support women hurting men in any way; but if someone, regardless of
race, creed, color, national origion, religeon, or gender attacks me I feel
I should have the right to defend myself to a point where THAT person will
forever leave me alone.

I agree until your last statement. If someone attacks you once, out
of the blue, you have no way of knowing whether it's a one time thing
or will recur. Saying that someone should defend themselves in a way
that makes sure it'll never happen again is to say that if someone
attacks you, just kill them. I certainly cannot agree with that
point.

Dee-Ann

Well...I never said "kill", but if I break the arm of someone who tries to
hit me with it, or break the leg of someone who tries to kick me with it
who's done the greater wrong? I do not advocate one person trying to control
another person just because they can.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:47:27 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id: <199604030647.IAA07133@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Without doubt ONE person wrote it. And yes, it is just one persons
fantasy
but if the women her on this and other groups don't put this type of
story
down and decry it as not the way they would do it. In fact I found out
about
the existence of the story from a woman who when asked for an example of
a
women ruled society gave this story as a prime example; then I have to
wonder if it is infact one persons opinion or many peoples opinion. In a
case like this you have to either be for it or against it. Those that
are
for it and aren't afraid to say so will speak up but those who are
against
it don't seem to be saying much unless they have been pinned down.
That's
why I asked the question. If you don't say anything against something
then
you must agree with those who are all for it.

I have to disagree here with you. For me it is a piece of artwork, a story
not an ideological manifest and i cannot say wether i am for it nor against
it. And people who dont say anything against something dont neccessarily be
for it, especially in a list like this one.



I dont see it (gothic tower) as a perfect world. It is just a nice
thought

about it.
( For me)empower women means letting looooove rule. And love means
submission.

I don't believe that love means submission anymore then the women who
have
submitted to a man for the same reason do. I'm sure that women on this
sub
will agree that a women submitting for love (or for any reason) is not
right. Is it any more right for a man to submit to a woman for ANY
reason?

Why not?
On the private level everybody should have the chance to decide what role
s/he plays and if the partner agrees with that everything is okay.
Its an agreement like it is nothing more than an agreement that men should
own everyTHING on this planet.
Women DO have the power and the intellegence to rule so why the hell
shouldnt those who love them support them, in their ideas, in their visions
about life, in their daily problems and wishes?
I have to ask you WHY NOT.
And if a woman decides to play the sub-part she should do it. Not every
human is a leader typ.
In my experience every human has a sub and a dom part inside. It is your
choice ( in a world where you are able to choose).
If you are looking for a scientific reason for that i wonder what reason
there should be for a male supremacy.


Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Apr 96 10:08:47 EST
From: magnus.thelander@mailbox.swipnet.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: a femdom world
Message-Id: <199604030808.KAA09190@mailbox.swip.net

On Tue, 2 Apr 96 22:16 MST you wrote:

earned just because your a woman? Women have been on this planet as long as
men have and there is currently no society in existance that is a matriarch.
If women are so much better at running things and ruling then why aren't
you? Why do men (seem) to control everything? Is it because men and women

Because scum floats to the top perhaps?

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmoe, Sweden

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 00:21:26 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199604030821.AAA01177@netcom11.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1099

i wrote:

Left to his own devices, Adam would still be parked in front
of the tube in his underwear, content with his beer and chips.
'Twas Eve (_Ava_, the Hebrew word for 'Woman,' btw) who got Adam
up off his dead ass and out of the house to look for a _job_.


Mark Bedell answered:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the house to
look for a job?

That's just the point. In that version of the myth, Eve _did_
reach out and try something new.

Seems to me if she had then maybe women would rule the
world today; but I doubt it.

It ain't over 'til the *** Lady is inaugurated.
In fact, it's hardly begun. We're still a species that
has nuclear weapons on the shelves, remember.
We still have a _long_ way to go, if we survive the next 2 centuries.

c.s.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 01:10:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id: <199604030910.BAA00242@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3134

Mark Bedell wrote:

Without doubt ONE person wrote it. And yes, it is just one persons fantasy
but if the women her on this and other groups don't put this type of story
down and decry it as not the way they would do it. In fact I found out about
the existence of the story from a woman who when asked for an example of a
women ruled society gave this story as a prime example; then I have to
wonder if it is infact one persons opinion or many peoples opinion. In a
case like this you have to either be for it or against it. Those that are
for it and aren't afraid to say so will speak up but those who are against
it don't seem to be saying much unless they have been pinned down. That's
why I asked the question. If you don't say anything against something then
you must agree with those who are all for it.

Well, personally, I'm not going to post daily, weekly, or monthly on
some kind of regular basis just to explain over and over how I feel
the reality of the Gothic Tower book would be. It's a fantasy story.
It's hot in places. It's an interesting read. But I don't think of
it as reality any more than I think the medieval world was like it's
presented in Tolkien. I don't like the thought of people being
treated as "things"...I want to see a better world, which to me is one
in which people are happy. Sure, you can't make everyone happy, but
it seems to me right now that most folks are rather unhappy.

I'm not going to "decry" the Gothic Tower, but I also don't look at it
as a manual for setting up a real life woman-run civilization. It's a
story, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't believe that love means submission anymore then the women who have
submitted to a man for the same reason do. I'm sure that women on this sub
will agree that a women submitting for love (or for any reason) is not
right. Is it any more right for a man to submit to a woman for ANY reason?
I do understand that what you said applies to you and you alone but as I
pointed out if your not for something you must state you are against it or
you have given your silent consent and agreement.

Love does not mean submission to all people. To some, when they meet
"the right person" and fall in love with them, they DO want to submit.
They get joy from it, it lets them feel fulfilled. There is nothing
wrong with being wired to submit to a partner any more than being
wired to prefer partners of the same gender. All of that different
wiring is what makes life so interesting, everyone's different from
one another.

Some have a burning desire to submit to someone even when they don't
have a partner. There's nothing wrong with that either, though I'll
generally urge them to try to find someone who appreciates them for
what they are, rather than just taking their submission and giving
nothing back.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:59:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id: <199604031159.DAA26081@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Without doubt ONE person wrote it. And yes, it is just one persons fantasy
but if the women her on this and other groups don't put this type of story
down and decry it as not the way they would do it. In fact I found out about
the existence of the story from a woman who when asked for an example of a
women ruled society gave this story as a prime example; then I have to
wonder if it is infact one persons opinion or many peoples opinion. In a
case like this you have to either be for it or against it. Those that are
for it and aren't afraid to say so will speak up but those who are against
it don't seem to be saying much unless they have been pinned down. That's
why I asked the question. If you don't say anything against something then
you must agree with those who are all for it.

I don't think so. For one, in my experience it's men who fantasize of a
world ruled by women, _especially_ in a sexual way. Literature written in
the past _by_ women concerning a matriarchal society has tended to be very
much political / philosophical in terms of issues and concerns, whereas male
written tends to be oriented very heavily towards sexual domination by women.

Here on this list, it has in the past tended to be, surprise surprise, men
who've posted saying that women _HAD_ to run the whole world, subjugating
all the sexually inferior men. The women here on the list, as well as most
of the more thoughtful men, wrote back disagreeing vehementenly, especially
insofar as these people's ideas tended to be that women should not be allowed
to be submissive, regardless of their personal tendencies - likewise, that
all guys would/should be subservient towards all women. Again - this was a
thought pattern evinced by _men_, not by women here on the list.

Finally - if a woman isn't reading things such as Gothic Tower or whatnot,
why in the world do they have to say anything against it? Or if they have,
and view it as simply a harmless bit of sexual fantasy, why do they need to
attack it as a political manifesto, when it isn't? "You have to either be
for it or against it"???? Says you. It's not a black and white world, and
your wanting it to be doesn't make it so.

Point I'll make about Gothic Tower, Horsewomen an' such : It's not an example
of a women-ruled society, it's an example of femdom fantasy, which is not at
all the same thing, necessarily, as femsupremacy. As examples of fantasy,
such stories tend to sometimes be passable - if you fantasize about submiting
to a whole bunch of women, an' being forced to it.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:29:13 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-Id: <199604031329.XAA21940@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Shame....really!!!.....
MyKey
At 09:06 PM 2/4/96 +0200, you wrote:
Without doubt, men
throughout
time have gladly been obeying women with no qualms whatsoever. I have
often
wondered why modern women fail to understand the *power* they are born
with.
Men
are by no means rapists, they spend their lives *courting* the favours of
women,
they buy flowers, they try to impress by displaying their wealth. Women
are
born
empowered, but many lose it on the way !


Well said, Dennis, thank you.



Since there are probably as many *natural* submissive women in this world
as
there are males, could we ever expect our dream of total Female Supremacy
to
become a reality ?. I doubt it !!




Bernd

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 06:03:10 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: a femdom world
Message-Id: <199604031403.GAA19630@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com

Do you expect men to just role over and hand you the power
that you can't get on your own?

No...

If women are so much better at running things and ruling then why
aren't you?

I do...




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 06:06:22 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199604031406.GAA20321@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com

Kilroy wrote:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the
house to
look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women would rule
the
world today; but I doubt it.

I find Kilroy's presence and comments disruptive, uninformed,
provacative, and not at all helpful.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 06:06:04 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She blinded me with *science*
Message-Id: <199604031406.GAA01065@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

Kilroy wrote:

You remind me of the group that was against testing makeup products on
monkeys and rabbits. Would you rather they tested those products on
YOU?

I feel that Kilroy's comments and reveal a deep desire to argue and
fight, instead of exchange ideas in a civilized manner, and I ask that
he be removed from the list.




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 06:12:51 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199604031412.GAA05523@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

Mark Bedell wrote:

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the
house to
look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women would rule
the
world today; but I doubt it.

You are getting more and more offensive, and it's getting tiresome. I
don't know if you're here to genuinely talk, or just to make pokes at
people who don't agree with you, but I suggest that you calm it down.
This is your first warning. Second gets you removed from the list.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

I'm confused now about who said what, but I trust you, Dee, to sort it
out and bounce the proper person. I liked the list better without the
self-appointed gadflys, which we most distinctly do not need.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 06:18:19 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199604031418.GAA08268@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com

Kilroy wrote:

this particular survey was apparently created by a group
intent on finding out how badly men treat women. If this is in fact
true then I would think the questions would be bent in that direction.

Yes, dare to dream that some people actually think it's time to
actively uncover the truth about the average woman's miserable
conditions.

Meaning, a woman scratches her ex-husbands face because she doesn't
want him taking the kids over easter (or Christmas, or any other
holiday). She does this to the point of drawing blood (a lot of it).
He pushes her down on the couch. (not "hit her" or "pick her up and
drop her", etc. just pushes her). She calls the police and claims
that he was beating her and HE goes to jail! Extreem case? Maybe. But
it really happened to someone I know.

Take this discussion to the soc.men NG. You'll find lots of others
there who think women have things tilted unfairly in their favor, and
that men are really the victims.



--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 06:56:27 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Recent degeneration of the discussion on this list
Message-Id: <199604031456.GAA02851@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

We seem to have a couple of guys posting to this list who absolutely,
positively do not get it. I believe that the energy we waste trying to
tug them into shape could be channelled more productively. I don't
want to be defending my life and worldview on this list, and if you
really think about it, neither do you.

I feel that discussions about how mean women can be and how men are
unfairly treated already do not belong on this list. Women should be
spoken of respectfully on this list, since this is our haven. There are
a couple of guys who've been posting lately who owe the people of this
list an apology for trying to stir up non-productive arguements.

I mean, REALLY. Do we want to see this list deteriorate into lumpheads
trashing women, and questioning the validity of research that
substantiates their complaints, while women and a few supportive men
try to reasonably explain things to them? I don't have any time for
such nonsense, and if you really think about it, neither do you.

The research has been done. The evidence is there. Those who wish to
educate themselves can, and should *do so* _before_ they try to
participate on this list.

Anyone who questions whether Matriarchies existed and worked
wonderfully should do the homework _before_ they attempt to participate
on this list. Anyone who questions the reality of women's modern-day
oppression has not done their homework. Anyone who says that women are
no better than men and wouldn't necessarily rule more wisely doesn't
belong on this list...they should find a NG such as soc.men and air
their views there.

Now I'm afraid I must insist that those who would like this list to
return to being the femsupremacy list say so now. If I am the one who
is wrong and should shut up, tell me now, so I can unsubscribe and get
on with my busy life.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #34
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 33

Today's Topics:
Re: Hello
Re: This person does not belong on this list. (Re: tired of femo-nazis?)
Re: MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
Re: tired of femo-nazis?
Re: tired of femo-nazis?
Re: MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
unsubscribe
Unsubscribe
Re: Unsubscribe
Re: Unsubscribe
How to unsubscribe
Re: About Hello
Re: About Hello
Re: a femdom world
Re: Poison apple?
Re: She blinded me with *science* (Re: Hello)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:40:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199603312240.OAA02465@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 7045

Mark Bedell wrote:

There seems to be some assumptions going around that I find very
interesting. I have seen mail that has said women are kinder, gentler, etc.
What is the proof of this?

You're not likely to find unarguable proof that any gender, race,
etc. is better, worse, kinder, more hostile, etc. than any other.
This is because any such "proof" is in the form of statistics that are
easily manipulated. And even if you look at the raw data, I'm sorry,
surveys just don't cut it. People aren't honest, and you can never be
quite sure how representative the survey group was for the entire
group you're studying. And, it's easy to set up the questions in such
a way that you avoid certain topics, or focus on certain topics. A
really vague question like "have you ever had to defend yourself
against your spouse?" doesn't tell nearly as much about the whole
situation as a series of questions involving things like "Has your
spouse ever injured you? Purposely, or by accident? If an accident,
was the injury caused by playful activity, or through hostility," and
etc. Just saying, "Has a spouse ever been the cause of a broken bone"
is misleading, it could be that you broke your arm slipping and
falling while trying to help them do something.

There have been survays done, I know, that
supposedly PROVE that men are the ones who beat women.

People beat people. It's a problem no matter who's beating whom.
What folks should be studying is why people are being beaten. One
factor is that men can be so much bigger than their female partners,
that a blow can cause much more damage to the woman than the other way
around. You can say that's just the way it is, but remember when you
were a kid and were told not to beat up on so and so because you're so
much bigger than them and could hurt them more than you intended to?
It's a fact of life...if you're much bigger and stronger than someone,
then you should keep that in mind while dealing physically with them.
Many of the guys I've known who are huge (either just tall, or
muscular, etc.) tend to be fairly gentle. This is because they've
learned that if they don't put thought into what they do, they could
break something or someone.

And, guess what, partner beating happens in same sex couples too.
It's not so much a gender issue thing as a power thing.

Yet if we take the
surveys raw data (instead of the socalled conclusions) and draw our own
conclusions we find that in almost every catagory of what is considered
"abuse" women far out number the men as abusers.

Personally, I would think the numbers are closer to equal. Once
again, I state that I don't trust the "surveys" because they're
usually slanted through their wording, and purposely or accidentally
slated through who they asked. I try to go more by what I discover in
my own life...I know a lot of women who have been raped. I know men
who have been raped, both by other men and by women. I don't know a
lot of people who were beaten by their partners. I know more people
who were emotionally abused by their partners, which can be a more
lasting kind of damage. In most cases, I can replace partners with
parents.

The thing to ask is, what drives people to emotionally or physically
abuse another person? Certainly some factors are societal, and some
are more ingrained in a person's makeup (from which comes the
discussion of whether it was put there by society or genetically).
Sitting around and trying to lay the blame on a particular gender or
group is silly, and gets nothing done but giving people brief chances
to feel better than someone else. Instead, focus on the things that
drive people who may not normally abuse someone to do so. I'm not
saying that these people are ok to hurt other people because they've
been hurt. What I'm saying is that if you can work to remove the
factors such as the societal stigma of being a single parent, equal
pay for the sexes, and the myriad of other factors that contribute to
pushing people "over the edge" then you can get actual results.

This conclusion does fly in
the face of what is accepted as the norm, but I think I know why. If a
woman attacks a man with a baseball bat intent on doing serious harm the man
is only allowed to defend himself to the point where the woman is unable to
use the bat on him. He is NOT allowed to hurt her in any way. On the other
hand if a man is going to slap a woman with his bare hand it is perfectly
acceptable for her to take out a gun and kill him. I believe this thinking
is largely due to the fact that the average man is bigger and stronger then
the average woman. Always has been probably always will be.

If anyone attacks anyone with a baseball bat, the person under attack
should defend themself. However, this doesn't mean getting the
baseball bat from the other person and then beating them to a pulp.
That's not self defense unless this person is hell bent on killing
you. As far as shooting someone for slapping you, that's silly, but
then there are folks who will shoot you for cutting them off in
traffic. Once again, this isn't a gender issue, it's a power and/or
temper issue. You just contribute to the tensions by helping along
the supposed war between the sexes by trying to throw blame about
instead of actually working to fix things.

Because he is stronger and bigger he only has permission to defend himself
in a fasion that doesn't hurt anyone else (unless that someone is another
man). What I don't understand is that, if a small country has a nuclear
bomb and tries to drop it on a big country why can't the big country stop
the small country from doing it as well as insuring that the small country
never even tries it again.

Because while people/nations/whatever have the right to defend
themselves, "two wrongs don't make a right," it's no better to turn
around and then wipe out the other person/nation/whatever. The object
is to stop the immediate threat, and then figure out what the heck
happened in the first place.

Same thing for men and women. I do not support men hurting women in anyway
nor do I support women hurting men in any way; but if someone, regardless of
race, creed, color, national origion, religeon, or gender attacks me I feel
I should have the right to defend myself to a point where THAT person will
forever leave me alone.

I agree until your last statement. If someone attacks you once, out
of the blue, you have no way of knowing whether it's a one time thing
or will recur. Saying that someone should defend themselves in a way
that makes sure it'll never happen again is to say that if someone
attacks you, just kill them. I certainly cannot agree with that
point.

Dee-Ann





the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 01:25:21 -0500
From: Alfa3liter@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: This person does not belong on this list. (Re: tired of femo-nazis?)
Message-ID: <960401012518_366823084@emout09.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-03-31 11:23:26 EST, you write:

IMHO :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)



Hello everyone....time to quit lurking. Just a few brief comments. The
individual whom this thread was/is directed at was on a trolling mission and
we shouldn't waste too much time on their comments which were obviously
designed to be destructive only.

Dear Laura was reasonably restrained in her comments....and I continue to
admire her more and more as I read her posts....even if I don't agree with
*everything* she says.

Let's move on before the troll rears his ugly misshapen head again.

alfa3liter

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 18:18:47 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-Id: <199604010818.SAA04515@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

From "Down Under"
Hear! Hear!
MyKey

At 03:50 PM 31/3/96 EST, you wrote:
Thanks to Laura Goodwin and Dee-Ann for taking the time to reply to my
*Thoughts*, it is important to us male participants to hear from the Ladies !!

With regard to the political side of Female Supremacy, I was delighted to read
in the SMC home page that there is now much more of a balance between male and
female members. It is absolutely imperative that more and more women *believe*
in their ability to take control. As I mentioned in my last contribution, I
have
met many women who had an obvious inherent desire to dominate, but were as
reticent as the submissive male in openly admitting their predilection. Why ??
because in both cases they are afraid to admit to being *different* from the
accepted norm.

Everyone who subscribes (and believes) in this Group are aware of the
historical
precedence of Female Supremacy. As a Celt, many of my male ancestors fought
bravely for their Queens during and before the Roman invasion of Britain. The
Elizabethan English conquered half the world !! Without doubt, men throughout
time have gladly been obeying women with no qualms whatsoever. I have often
wondered why modern women fail to understand the *power* they are born
with. Men
are by no means rapists, they spend their lives *courting* the favours of
women,
they buy flowers, they try to impress by displaying their wealth. Women are
born
empowered, but many lose it on the way !

Since there are probably as many *natural* submissive women in this world as
there are males, could we ever expect our dream of total Female Supremacy to
become a reality ?. I doubt it !! but if again you study history, there
have
been frequent examples of Male and Female dominated societies co-existing
on the
same planet. The answer must be along the lines of SMC and Orb And Sceptre ,
whereby communes are set up reflecting the lifestyle of the inhabitants. If
these communes thrive, their individual growth and the propagation of similar
communes will inexorably develop a *voting* strength that will eventually
reflect in local and eventually national legislation. The plus factor of these
communes is that every member, whether dominant female or submissive male, can
openly live their preferred lifestyle without fear of ridicule or retribution.

So in conclusion (thank God or Goddess I hear you cry !), Ms L and Ms Dee-Ann
are more than aware that they have a multitude of males willing to follow them
. But they MUST continue to educate more and more women that, should they
desire it, they CAN take control and change at least a fair proportion of the
world population.

Dennis

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 20:21:35 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: tired of femo-nazis?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

unsubscribe.

N=83N=83


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 20:22:03 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: tired of femo-nazis?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

sorry-just got worked up.

N=83N=83


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:06:04 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-Id: <199604021906.VAA04116@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Without doubt, men
throughout
time have gladly been obeying women with no qualms whatsoever. I have
often
wondered why modern women fail to understand the *power* they are born
with.
Men
are by no means rapists, they spend their lives *courting* the favours of
women,
they buy flowers, they try to impress by displaying their wealth. Women
are
born
empowered, but many lose it on the way !


Well said, Dennis, thank you.



Since there are probably as many *natural* submissive women in this world
as
there are males, could we ever expect our dream of total Female Supremacy
to
become a reality ?. I doubt it !!




Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:38:48 +1200
From: john.birch@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (John Birch)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| John Birch E-Mail: john.birch@stonebow.otago.ac.nz |
| Food Science Phone: +64 03 479 7566 |
| Consumer Sciences Fax: +64 03 479 7567 |
| University of Otago |
| P O Box 56 |
| DUNEDIN |
| NEW ZEALAND |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:02:34 -0600 (CST)
From: ellen@intersurf.com (Ellen)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-Id: <199604030002.SAA28526@alex.intersurf.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Unsubcribe ellen@intersurf.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:15:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Asnip
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

unsubscribe asnip@crl.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:22:58 -0800
From: Eileen
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <9604022024.aa19099@ih2000.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

unsubcribe whisper@ih2000.net




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:30:58 -0800 (PST)
From: dee@renaissoft.com (Dee-Ann LeBlanc)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: How to unsubscribe
Message-Id: <199604030231.SAA27752@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 553

According to the help file that everyone gets when subscribing to this
list, to unsubscribe write to

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

unsubscribe

and nothing in the body.

Sending "unsubscribe" to the list does you no good.

Dee-Ann
List Administratory

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 21:51 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My bedrock assertion for most of the last 18 months in this
forum has been to the effect that "I can trust women more than I
can trust men."

Why can't you trust men? Not to say that you may have been doublecrossed by
all of the men in your life (that happens at it's worst), but that certainly
doesn't mean that you shouldn't trust any of them. Not only that but can
you honestly say that no woman has ever doublecrossed you?

because I have not been logical, linear, left-brained and 'factual'
in my thinking, because I have relied more upon experience, chaos
and intuition in my thinking, am I wrong? Are none the above gains
in my life, unfounded as they are on 'fact,' _correct_?

Heavens no your not wrong!!! What ever works for you must be correct for
you. I wonder though, is your way supposed to be correct for me or anyone else?

All I'm trying to say here is that perhaps we need to widen
the 'rules of evidence' to include whatever works, however untidy
it might appear. And what works for me is to trust most that which
is ultimately silly, chaotic and mysterious, right here in River City.

Agreed. But widening our horizons also means putting trust in that which we
instinctively don't trust. In trying someone elses way of thinking to see
if it works. To NOT prejudging someone because they are one thing and you
are something else. Widening your horizons means being open to new ideas and
taking them on their own merit.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 22:04 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Women in power do have a strong sexual and spiritual attraction to me but
I dont believe that the Gothic Tower was written by a woman, although I
dont know it. But even if it was written by a woman it was done by ONE
woman and not by THE women, so i dont see it as the womens vision about
world. The sexual phantasy is a miracle, a phenomena for me and i dont have
a clear answer to it.
I would love to hear womens opinnion about BDSM or the Gothic tower too.
Unfortunatly mainly men are discussing in this group (not that i am against
it, guys)

Without doubt ONE person wrote it. And yes, it is just one persons fantasy
but if the women her on this and other groups don't put this type of story
down and decry it as not the way they would do it. In fact I found out about
the existence of the story from a woman who when asked for an example of a
women ruled society gave this story as a prime example; then I have to
wonder if it is infact one persons opinion or many peoples opinion. In a
case like this you have to either be for it or against it. Those that are
for it and aren't afraid to say so will speak up but those who are against
it don't seem to be saying much unless they have been pinned down. That's
why I asked the question. If you don't say anything against something then
you must agree with those who are all for it.

I dont see it (gothic tower) as a perfect world. It is just a nice thought
about it.
( For me)empower women means letting looooove rule. And love means
submission.

I don't believe that love means submission anymore then the women who have
submitted to a man for the same reason do. I'm sure that women on this sub
will agree that a women submitting for love (or for any reason) is not
right. Is it any more right for a man to submit to a woman for ANY reason?
I do understand that what you said applies to you and you alone but as I
pointed out if your not for something you must state you are against it or
you have given your silent consent and agreement.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 22:16 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: a femdom world
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

That is the topic on the table. Look friend, nobody on this list is
required to pat insecure guys on the head and reassasure them that
women will always only play nice. Have guys always played nice? NO.
That's the fact. Will women in charge always play nice? They may,
they may not. Time will tell. What's your ding-dong point?

The point is, if I can't expect you (as a woman) to play fare then I don't
have to either. Do you expect men to just role over and hand you the power
that you can't get on your own? Should I show you respect you haven't
earned just because your a woman? Women have been on this planet as long as
men have and there is currently no society in existance that is a matriarch.
If women are so much better at running things and ruling then why aren't
you? Why do men (seem) to control everything? Is it because men and women
are so much alike? Do you really trust that a woman executive won't stab you
in the back any quicker then a male executive, just because your a woman
too? Don't count on it.

Look, Let's get back to discussing the *merits* of a femsupremacy model
and worldview. There is much to be said *in favor* of the idea. It
has been scientifically *well established* that women in general are
palpably more peaceloving and nurturing than men, that *is*
established scientific fact. That women are in every way as capable
as men is a fact also *well established*. You want proof? If your own
senses and the experience of your life hasn't convinced you, show some
guts and educate yourself at the library. I recommend:

*The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets* by Barbara G. Walker
(Harper/Collins) for a historical overview of women's glories and
problems.

Haven't read it, but I'll try and find it. However, how do you establish a
"scientific fact" like this? Do you use history? Do you measure hormones?
What kind of "scientific facts" can prove that one gender is more
peaceloving (on the whole) then another? History hasn't proven this. We are
ALL humans and humans will fight for what they believe is right even if the
entire rest of the human population of the world thinks it's wrong. Women
will fight over men and men will fight over women. Humans will fight for a
better place in life and the more despicable ones will lie, steal, cheat,
and kill to get it. That makes us human and women are humans too. So what
"scientific fact" makes you different from any other human?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 22:31 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poison apple?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Left to his own devices, Adam would still be parked in front
of the tube in his underwear, content with his beer and chips.
'Twas Eve (_Ava_, the Hebrew word for 'Woman,' btw) who got Adam
up off his dead ass and out of the house to look for a _job_.

:D

Probably a male femo-nazi,

What's the matter couldn't eve get off her dead ass and out of the house to
look for a job? Seems to me if she had then maybe women would rule the
world today; but I doubt it.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 22:27 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She blinded me with *science* (Re: Hello)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

You said it, sister! Science is great! Science is a woman's best
friend! It's certain so-called scientists who are jerks, and worse!

You remind me of the group that was against testing makeup products on
monkeys and rabbits. Would you rather they tested those products on YOU? If
not (and do hope you say no) then what alternative would you have proposed?
You certainly sound like someone who is all for the good things that science
can provide but have you taken in to account the steps that were taken to
get there? If you do and you could go back in time and stop the testing on
live animals what would you replace it with? If you didn't replace it with
anything then when you got back from your little trip to the past, you still
wouldn't have makeup. (OK, one example. But for every step science and
progress has taken something else suffered. That couldn't be helped and
still have progress.)

What about these yokels who insist on trying to perfect an artificial
womb, as if women's natural wombs aren't already plenty good enough!
Holy Cow! If women can't carry babies so sucessfully that we have
covered the earth in them, then what the hell *can* we do!?
--
Laura Goodwin

I don't think anyone will argue that women can't successfully carry
children. But right now, today, a women doesn't need a man to get pregnant.
Unless you distroy or contaminate all of the sperm banks. But right now,
today, a man can't father a child without a woman. If they did invent the
artificial womb MAN kind would have no more need of women the WOMEN kind
need of men. Since having children for a woman doesn't require and man then
a womans reason for keeping men around is very subjective.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:
Re: About Hello
Re: a femdom world
tired of femo-nazis?
Re: Thoughts
She blinded me with *science* (Re: Hello)
One great thing :)
This person does not belong on this list. (Re: tired of femo-nazis?)
Re: This person does not belong on this list. (Re: tired of femo-nazis?)
Poison apple?
MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
MORE Thoughts From An Older Male (Part 2)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 11:29:11 +0200
From: Bernd Angerer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id: <199603310929.LAA05127@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kilroy wrote:
I have read both the Gothic Tower and Hores Woman. The Gothic Tower had
a good story but the writing was terrible. The story was hard to follow
and was disjointed in many places. Granted the author was not Mark Twain
or Issac Asimov but still I have seen better writing from amatures before.
I found no fault with the store line and the subject matter didn't bother
me a bit. I think the story has A LOT of potential and really wish the
author would sit down and rewrite it. It was easy to see that the author
was from a European country but I could not tell which. Something may
have been lost in the translation. If the author wrote the story as a
first attempt in English with English syntax then I applaud the author and
hope s/he continues to write more. You have a very inspired mind and your
writing can get better.


Very close to my impression about Gothic tower. I love this image about a
women ruled world with their trained and domesticated males. But as you
wrote later in your mail i wonder why this world should build upon that
extreme form of punishment and humilation.
That is my main problem with BDSM. Seen as erotic fiction it is somehow
excting but taking this story one to one into real life it is a terrible
vision.

However, I would like to know one thing, and I would like to hear it from
the women who have read these stories. Why is it that in order for women
to
be superior, men have to be something less then cattle? If men treated
women in the real world the way the women treated men in these stories
they would gain the title of the most barbaric bastards in the world. So
why is it different for women? Why is it socially acceptable for women to
treat men as slaves, whipping boys, playthings, cattle, etc. and barbaric
for men to treat women this way?

I think you are wrong here. It is NOT socially accepted for women nor is it
for men to whipping boys etc..
I dont know one single woman who loves to be violent, to punish boys or to
whip them, except as a (mind)game.But i know women who treat their men as
*slaves* as something less then theirself. Maybe because they, the women,
are the one who propagate.


Not only that, but women (at least in the US, Canada, and most European
nations) are not treated even close to the way the men were treated in
these stories. Granted, some men do treat some (or all women) like this
but society as a whole and most men DON'T DO THIS to women.

Not in exactly this way but there is a big pressure on women all over the
world to act correctly, what ever this means.

Why do women feel that things would be so much better "a kinder, gentler
world" if they ran things and then write stories like these? Do women
think this is a kinder gentler way? Is it only a kinder gentler way when
women are in control and men don't even count?

Women in power do have a strong sexual and spiritual attraction to me but
I dont believe that the Gothic Tower was written by a woman, although I
dont know it. But even if it was written by a woman it was done by ONE
woman and not by THE women, so i dont see it as the womens vision about
world. The sexual phantasy is a miracle, a phenomena for me and i dont have
a clear answer to it.
I would love to hear womens opinnion about BDSM or the Gothic tower too.
Unfortunatly mainly men are discussing in this group (not that i am against
it, guys)




I would really appreciate honest answeres. No flames; they will be
ignored.Give me your honest opinions and don't try to spout facts that are
not yet in evidence such as "Women are more feeling then men" You don't
have any proof of this. Just tell me why the worlds discribed in these
stories is what you believe to be a perfect world.

I dont see it (gothic tower) as a perfect world. It is just a nice thought
about it.
( For me)empower women means letting looooove rule. And love means
submission.

All just my personal thoughts.

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 06:02:32 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: a femdom world
Message-Id: <199603311402.GAA05034@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com

Would wages be equal? Would sexual harrassment no longer exist? Would
second class citizenship go away for both men and women? Or would
things just get turned around so that men were now in the position
that women have been in?

That is the topic on the table. Look friend, nobody on this list is
required to pat insecure guys on the head and reassasure them that
women will always only play nice. Have guys always played nice? NO.
That's the fact. Will women in charge always play nice? They may,
they may not. Time will tell. What's your ding-dong point?

Laura, Can I use you as a character in my book? PLEASE????

!?

NO, you can not *use* me as a character in your book! No, No, No. Did
you hear that everybody? I said, "NO."

Look, Let's get back to discussing the *merits* of a femsupremacy model
and worldview. There is much to be said *in favor* of the idea. It
has been scientifically *well established* that women in general are
palpably more peaceloving and nurturing than men, that *is*
established scientific fact. That women are in every way as capable
as men is a fact also *well established*. You want proof? If your own
senses and the experience of your life hasn't convinced you, show some
guts and educate yourself at the library. I recommend:

*The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets* by Barbara G. Walker
(Harper/Collins) for a historical overview of women's glories and
problems.

For those who can't read, an excellent primer on the natural
differences between the sexes, "Brain Sex" (The Learning Collection).
Available from Discovery Program Enterprises, Bethesda, MD 20814.
The first of the 3 part collection, "Sugar and Spice" can answer any
basic questions about hormones and their powerful effects on the
developing human body and brain.

For a general explaination about why modern women today are pissed and
might fantasize about men in chains, try, *The War Against Women*, by
Marilyn French.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 01:31:42 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: tired of femo-nazis?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

try feminist propaganda!
there are women who murder,steal,abandon their children,sell their
children,push drugs,smuggle drugs,are corrupt,accept vice,engage in
terrorist acts and so on."Women"are not sin free ,nor are men.the sooner
the holier than thou femo-nazis realise that there are good and bad on both
sides the better.
As for laura's conclusive proof,it is not that conclusive at all.perhaps
she would like to enlighten everybody with her conclusive proof by
publishing some of it on the newsgroup.What reputable sources?what
statistics?(torture the statistics long enough and eventually they will
confess)NB new age books are not acceptable.
I suppose the femo-nazis will say that women engage in these acts because
the male dominated society forced them to.Male suppression pushed them into
a corner etc etc.evil is gender neutral.for every woman who commits an evil
act,there is one who chooses not to,the same for men.
and here's one to really stir up the hornets nest:
.wasn't it Eve who ate the poison apple?
regards,M.
p.s I don't belive everything i read,neither should you.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
for every neo-classical economist there is an equal and opposite economist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 06:27:19 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199603311427.GAA05592@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

Well, part of the problem is that the current political system is set
up so that you must "play the game" in a certain way to get anywhere.
The people who manage to wade through this morass are more often than
not people who don't really have our best interests at heart.

I agree. I feel that the system itself must be radically reformed, or
even abolished, but in favor of what? We need to consider well what we
would like to change it in favor of. The problem must be
addressed/attacked in many ways and by many different kinds of people.
Everyone/anyone can play an important role. I wish more people would
get fired up on their own behalf, but few do.

I don't think that they "don't care", I think they feel overwhelmed and
depressed. Electrifying and effective leadership is needed. Alas,
often people get a sensational feeling from some witless demagogue, and
allow themselves to be swept along during the campaign, only to realize
later that the "leader" has few real leadership qualities, but in fact
is a puppet of big business gangsters. This leads to a let-down and
starts a vicious cycle. More and more voters in the U.S. are
disaffected to the point where they just don't bother to vote. There
is a growing feeling that voting "doesn't mean (change) anything".

The real enemy is enertia. If women and those who support them could
only be mobilized right now, we would meet with little opposition.
Getting together is the key, and there are many ways to do it. Any
movement in any direction is better than no movement. The main thing
right now is to become active.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 06:34:22 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: She blinded me with *science* (Re: Hello)
Message-Id: <199603311434.GAA09745@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

Dee wrote:

I have no problem with science...I have a
problem with some of the people who use the tool that is science for
things like biological weapons, and don't bother to use the tool that
is science to make sure that they clean up their mess when they're
done.

You said it, sister! Science is great! Science is a woman's best
friend! It's certain so-called scientists who are jerks, and worse!

What about these yokels who insist on trying to perfect an artificial
womb, as if women's natural wombs aren't already plenty good enough!
Holy Cow! If women can't carry babies so sucessfully that we have
covered the earth in them, then what the hell *can* we do!?






--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

It's called a library card. Costs nothing: is worth a lot. :) The
importance of educating ourselves is immeasurable. You can't do it once
and be done either: you have to do it a little (or a lot) everyday.

We can't expect the established order to spoon-feed us anything but
what they want us to hear/think, and for their own reasons. *If* you
are willing to dig a little, you can find GOLD! *GOLD*! You have to
understand that the bosses are not going to mine the gold for us and
hand it to us.

You also should understand that they have a well-financed and
well-organized P.R. machine grinding away night and day. If you were
in a prison camp and had the enemy's propaganda blared at you night and
day, how would you stay sane and remember who you are? _Do that_.

Femsupremacists have to have faith and courage: we must become
stubborn; ice cold and clear about what we believe. Nobody can make
you clear; you have to do that for yourself.

We also must make the effort to keep this list clear of the enemy's
static. This is our haven, remember?

Tell your own story: That is a report from the front lines. Read
other's stories, and for heaven's sake read (and pay heed to) the
fantastic research that's been done!

I wish more of you would post the names/authors of books that support
our worldview. I don't want to miss any. Thank you. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 07:13:00 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: This person does not belong on this list. (Re: tired of femo-nazis?)
Message-Id: <199603311513.HAA22493@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

"M" wrote:

try feminist propaganda!
there are women who murder,steal,abandon their children,sell their
children,push drugs,smuggle drugs,are corrupt,accept vice,engage in
terrorist acts and so on."Women"are not sin free ,nor are men.the
sooner the holier than thou femo-nazis realise that there are good and
bad on both sides the better.

I suppose the femo-nazis will say that women engage in these acts
because the male dominated society forced them to.Male suppression
pushed them into a corner etc etc.evil is gender neutral.for every
woman who commits an evil act,there is one who chooses not to,the same
for men. and here's one to really stir up the hornets nest:
.wasn't it Eve who ate the poison apple?
regards,M.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:19:50 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: This person does not belong on this list. (Re: tired of femo-nazis?)
Message-Id: <199603311619.IAA03144@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

"M" wrote:

.wasn't it Eve who ate the poison apple?
regards,M.

IMHO :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:28:24 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Poison apple?
Message-Id: <199603312028.MAA06166@netcom12.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1076

.wasn't it Eve who ate the poison apple?

I devoutly hope so: the apple of _Knowledge_, the poison
of Awareness, the apple of Meaning.

At least that's what one version of that particular myth says.
(Myths are wonderful: Vedic, Greek, Hebrew, Celtic, First
American, African, Norse, whatever. They tell us who we really are.)

Left to his own devices, Adam would still be parked in front
of the tube in his underwear, content with his beer and chips.
'Twas Eve (_Ava_, the Hebrew word for 'Woman,' btw) who got Adam
up off his dead ass and out of the house to look for a _job_.

:D

Probably a male femo-nazi,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 96 15:50:07 EST
From: "Dennis O'Hara" <101342.2030@compuserve.com
To: FS
Subject: MORE Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-ID: <960331205007_101342.2030_GHW30-1@CompuServe.COM

Thanks to Laura Goodwin and Dee-Ann for taking the time to reply to my
*Thoughts*, it is important to us male participants to hear from the Ladies !!

With regard to the political side of Female Supremacy, I was delighted to read
in the SMC home page that there is now much more of a balance between male and
female members. It is absolutely imperative that more and more women *believe*
in their ability to take control. As I mentioned in my last contribution, I have
met many women who had an obvious inherent desire to dominate, but were as
reticent as the submissive male in openly admitting their predilection. Why ??
because in both cases they are afraid to admit to being *different* from the
accepted norm.

Everyone who subscribes (and believes) in this Group are aware of the historical
precedence of Female Supremacy. As a Celt, many of my male ancestors fought
bravely for their Queens during and before the Roman invasion of Britain. The
Elizabethan English conquered half the world !! Without doubt, men throughout
time have gladly been obeying women with no qualms whatsoever. I have often
wondered why modern women fail to understand the *power* they are born with. Men
are by no means rapists, they spend their lives *courting* the favours of women,
they buy flowers, they try to impress by displaying their wealth. Women are born
empowered, but many lose it on the way !

Since there are probably as many *natural* submissive women in this world as
there are males, could we ever expect our dream of total Female Supremacy to
become a reality ?. I doubt it !! but if again you study history, there have
been frequent examples of Male and Female dominated societies co-existing on the
same planet. The answer must be along the lines of SMC and Orb And Sceptre ,
whereby communes are set up reflecting the lifestyle of the inhabitants. If
these communes thrive, their individual growth and the propagation of similar
communes will inexorably develop a *voting* strength that will eventually
reflect in local and eventually national legislation. The plus factor of these
communes is that every member, whether dominant female or submissive male, can
openly live their preferred lifestyle without fear of ridicule or retribution.

So in conclusion (thank God or Goddess I hear you cry !), Ms L and Ms Dee-Ann
are more than aware that they have a multitude of males willing to follow them
. But they MUST continue to educate more and more women that, should they
desire it, they CAN take control and change at least a fair proportion of the
world population.

Dennis

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 31 Mar 96 17:22:45 EST
From: "Dennis O'Hara" <101342.2030@compuserve.com
To: FS
Subject: MORE Thoughts From An Older Male (Part 2)
Message-ID: <960331222245_101342.2030_GHW108-1@CompuServe.COM

Thank you Dee-Ann for your reply with regard to my *non masochist male* point
raised.

What you said helps me a great deal. My experience with dominant women confirm
what you say, that it is unfortunately obvious that the majority of *stories*
reflecting Female Supremacy are written by men (that in itself is a great
shame). Reality is so different !! As you rightly observed, the dominant
ladies in my life were all hard working *career* women, spending *at least* 8
hours a day working *in the office*. None were wealthy, all were married, and to
the rest of the world they were no different to the rest of the female members
of staff.

It was through developing a close relationship (at work), that I realised they
had a penchant for domination. You admit that you *generally care about those
I own*, and my own experience is that other than on a *professional* basis, this
is a pre-requisite for any dominant/submissive relationship. Surely the joy of
such a relationship is in the knowledge that both the people involved enjoy each
others commitment to their *special* relationship.

With regard to your views on inflicting pain, you again are quite right. If a
male submits to a women, then it is her option to administer pain, after all,
what would constitute punishment if the giving of such was *welcome*. Whilst
agreeing with that premise, I would also more than agree with your comment .. *
there are certainly forms of punishment that have nothing to do with pain* ..
how right you are !!

I found it interesting that there were comments among this group with regard to
*strong women*, and other comments saying that if size was the pre-requisite of
*power*, then we would be dominated by horses etc etc. Part of the joy of male
submissiveness is in the knowledge that more often than not we submit to women
of lesser physical stature that is what *turns us on* !! That is what
turns our Ladies on !! To submit to a *physically inferior* women is to
willingly relinquish (to the *right* women) our capability to dominate through
strength . We must all face up to what we are .. life is too short if you are
a nice male and submissive . enjoy what you are . Never give in to mediocrity
!!

Again thank you Dee-Ann

Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male

Not to put too fine a point to it, but for those whose environmental
conscience is disturbed by automobiles, fine. No problem. Do without.

I cannot.

Cars are tools. Despite arguments in favor of mass transit (great in urban
areas), I, for one, will not be moving back to horse-and-buggy technology.
There are too many journeys which would otherwise be near-impossible to mak=
e.

Sophistry in arguing space requirements, environment, competition vs
cooperation, innovation, creativity, vision and reality is, IMO, navel-gazi=
ng.

All those elements must be marketed. Business is still business.

Ooooh Alan!

I have been lurking on this group since January and your "thoughts" as well
as my fellow Brit's contribution (very well put Dennis) have finally caused
me to chirp up.

Its a clich=E9 but; if you regard the history of this planet as a 24 hour
period then man and Woman kind have crawled(?) on it's surface for last few
minutes. The automobile made its appearance in the last few seconds. Its
clear that the dramatic impact our activities are having on the planet will
NOT be able to continue unchecked for very many micro seconds longer. Its
not sophistry to make that deduction.

Having said that, I confess I do drive. I even enjoy it on occasion. But I
don't expect to be able to do so for much longer. I certainly don't imagine
my children will be able to, for sure! (and I have a very wild and
=46ANTASTIC imagination).

I know my days as a patriarch and motorist are both numbered.

i face the future with optimism. Dare i say i put my faith in the Goddess?

Mercy?

Deep Respect

Ian
newworld@dircon.co.uk
London


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 96 15:18:36 EST
From: "Dennis O'Hara" <101342.2030@compuserve.com
To: FS
Subject: MOTOR CARS
Message-ID: <960326201835_101342.2030_GHW154-1@CompuServe.COM

Thanks for the plug Ian (London), its nice to know that there are some
supporters of Female Supremacy in the UK !! (I'm an ex South Londoner myself).

With regard to cars, they should be banned, burned, dismissed from society. They
are a menace !!

Oh ..... by the way .... I ride an 1100cc motorcycle ... well ....... it gives
me a chance to wear the leathers !!

All the best

Dennis

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:25:09 -0500
From: defiant@interlog.com (alan)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Motor Car Fetish
Message-Id: <199603262021.PAA12199@gold.interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ian continues the sophistry with this:

Its a clich=E9 but; if you regard the history of this planet as a 24 hour
period then man and Woman kind have crawled(?) on it's surface for last few
minutes. The automobile made its appearance in the last few seconds. Its
clear that the dramatic impact our activities are having on the planet will
NOT be able to continue unchecked for very many micro seconds longer. Its
not sophistry to make that deduction.

However one wishes to describe Earth's "time", we're still dealing with
evolution. Just as the buggy had its time, so will the internal combustion
engine have it's.

In the meantime, I'll be driving.

Now, can we move on?


alan


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:18:01 -0800
From: probe@ix.netcom.com (Maverick )
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: to Laura Goodwin...(and others, an open request)
Message-Id: <199603270318.TAA15278@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com

my Mistress/Wife and i are impressed with your comments and
suggestions, MS Laura Goodwin. You have mentioned some things that we
feel could help us explore our FemDom based relationship.

would you consider at some time corresponding with Mistress C.S. on
issues related to our new lifestyle ? if you are, you could correspond
directly to her via her e-mail (which we will send privately, with your
permission).

thanks again for all of your insights...



slave philip and Mistress C.S.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 96 03:50:38 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Research and Newsgroups
Message-ID: <960327085038_100604.1736_GHW109-1@CompuServe.COM

Coyote wrote Abie, you _do_ have a special problem: You have a CompuServe
account. CompuServe allows access to some but not all Usenet
newsgroups, and I've heard (read, actually, rumormonger that I
am) that CompuServe specifically shuts out the alt.sex.* newsgroup
hierarchy....

You may want to consider getting an Internet shell account. They
are cheap to free depending on where you are in Europe. Magnus,
Lanoline or Timberwolf might be able to suggest a good service
near you, and you should connect with local users or a nearby
university or library for more advice.

Thank you Coyote. I am grateful for help like this.
Will make inquiries here regarding a shell
account (an expression new to me). Am based in
Glasgow UK which has local phone access number
with a 28,000 baud rate.

Would also be grateful to Magnus, Lanoline or Timberwolf
for any advice they might offer for the
alternatitve connection.

Abie
internet:100604.1736@compuserve.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 06:55:00 +0100
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Motor Car Fetish
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

26 Mar 96 21:25, alan wrote to:

a However one wishes to describe Earth's "time", we're still dealing
a with evolution. Just as the buggy had its time, so will the internal
a combustion engine have it's.

This has nothing to do with evolution. It's not an organism. It's not
adapted to the environment it destroys.

a In the meantime, I'll be driving.

It's insane and extremely egoistic for millions of people to drive one car
each to and from their place of work in all megacities around the world. There
are much more efficient means of transportation both in terms of time and in
terms of their use of resources. In areas with low population density, the car
has its place, but it probably won't run on fossile fuels for much longer,
since they won't last very much longer anyway.

a Now, can we move on?

Magnus<<

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:16:18 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: to Laura Goodwin...(and others, an open request)
Message-Id: <199603271516.HAA01380@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com

my Mistress/Wife and i are impressed with your comments and
suggestions, MS Laura Goodwin. You have mentioned some things that we
feel could help us explore our FemDom based relationship.

would you consider at some time corresponding with Mistress C.S. on
issues related to our new lifestyle ?

Oh, I *wish* I had time to do that...:) I answer 300+ pieces of mail a
week as it is, and don't really have time for e-mail pals.

Keep participating in this list and alt.sex.femdom, and you'll get all
kinds of support and neat ideas. :)


--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:33:52 +0000
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Gothic Tower
Message-Id: <199603271624.RAA00536@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote Coyote:

To me? Simply because it ended in what I saw as a 'switch,'
which I personally have trouble accepting. Others might not:
It's my hangup, or preference. For very real reasons in my
personal history, I have trouble accepting 'dominant' males
as anything but thugs.

Thanks for your point-of-wiew, Old Dog. You are as always a very
sensible person. Your subjective impression of the gender of the
author is of course valid for you, even though I disagree. Still, might
not the difference in style (if it is there) be a matter of culture, not
gender? There is a real and generally under-estimated difference
between U.S. and European styles and attitudes (and also between
Continental European and Scandinavian, and British). For instance,
American advertising just does not travel.

A couple of years ago, a Swedish journalist wrote about a curious
experience he had. He was on his way by air home from the U.S. to
Europe. In the seat next to him sat a very attractive black woman.
But over the Atlantic, she began to change --- and when they landed,
she had been transformed into a very attractive *American* woman!
That is, his perception of her had changed during the flight from an
American one (where race is always very important) to a European
and expecially a Scandinavian one, where nationality is much more
relevant.

And then the 'switch'. Is there one? I do not think so. Fallou does not
propose that the two horsewomen should become his slaves. All those
dreams, I think, are past. What he actually says is that he will honour
and respect them. They know however that at least in appearance,
they cannot be his equals in his culture, irrespective of his attitude.
Their sardonical words about changed roles, their need of discipline
etc. sound like just a verbal game. They are capable of putting up a
facade; at least, they prefer that to death amongst their enemies. And
as for playing at submission --- or even real but consensual submission,
and even a bit of spanking & bondage --- lots of people can and want to
play that game, even if *real* slavery, or slave ownership, would be
abhorrent to them. The horsewomen, just as the Plains Indians which
they are so obviously modeled on, live in a sado-masochistic culture.
And the sado-maso ambivalence is so well-known and commented on
that it is getting trivial.

Again, I do appreciate all reasonable people and their opinions, and
not least yours, Coyote. Have a nice evening!

TWolf


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #28
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:
Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Strong women,so what?
Re: Strong women,so what?
Re: IMHO
Re: Strong women,so what?
Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Re: Hello
Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Re: Hello
Re: Strong women,so what?
Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 96 15:39:12 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-ID: <960327203911_100604.1736_GHW118-1@CompuServe.COM

Dear TWolf,

It was with such anticipation that I tried to
get into the lovely long file sent. Too big for
notebook txt, then I converted it to WPs and opened
it only to discover that I could read your
iniatial message about here it was:
The Gothic Tower. Then it went into
hyrolgliphics.

The message that came up was: this file must be converted BinHex 4.0.
Is there any way I can do that with basic
Compaq 520 PC, and only 4 RAM?

Thank you for any help.

Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 20:56 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hoo, boy, how's *that* for a beginning?

Look chum, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding going on here.
You see, this is a femsupremacy list for people to discuss the merits
of female supremacy. We've already heard enough discouraging talk
against the idea, and frankly, were unimpressed.

--
Laura Goodwin

Fortunately, I'm not the author of the post that Laura is responding to; but
I agree with Laura to a point.

I don't know if women can do a better job. I don't think they can. Don't
get me wrong I'm not here to trash this place, but I do have some questions.

There seems to be some assumptions going around that I find very
interesting. I have seen mail that has said women are kinder, gentler, etc.
What is the proof of this? There have been survays done, I know, that
supposedly PROVE that men are the ones who beat women. Yet if we take the
surveys raw data (instead of the socalled conclusions) and draw our own
conclusions we find that in almost every catagory of what is considered
"abuse" women far out number the men as abusers. This conclusion does fly in
the face of what is accepted as the norm, but I think I know why. If a
woman attacks a man with a baseball bat intent on doing serious harm the man
is only allowed to defend himself to the point where the woman is unable to
use the bat on him. He is NOT allowed to hurt her in any way. On the other
hand if a man is going to slap a woman with his bare hand it is perfectly
acceptable for her to take out a gun and kill him. I believe this thinking
is largely due to the fact that the average man is bigger and stronger then
the average woman. Always has been probably always will be.

Because he is stronger and bigger he only has permission to defend himself
in a fasion that doesn't hurt anyone else (unless that someone is another
man). What I don't understand is that, if a small country has a nuclear
bomb and tries to drop it on a big country why can't the big country stop
the small country from doing it as well as insuring that the small country
never even tries it again.

Same thing for men and women. I do not support men hurting women in anyway
nor do I support women hurting men in any way; but if someone, regardless of
race, creed, color, national origion, religeon, or gender attacks me I feel
I should have the right to defend myself to a point where THAT person will
forever leave me alone.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 20:28:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Mark Bedell wrote:

What is the proof of this? There have been survays done, I know, that
supposedly PROVE that men are the ones who beat women. Yet if we take the
surveys raw data (instead of the socalled conclusions) and draw our own
conclusions we find that in almost every catagory of what is considered
"abuse" women far out number the men as abusers.

Mark,

Please give me exact details of the surveys to which you refer.
The surveying organization, the demographics of the polled population,
the sort of questions asked and the dates of the surveys would be
appreciated.

Sincere thanks,

Barry


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:59:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Message-Id: <199603280559.VAA00861@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3301

I2bme4@aol.com wrote:

I am somewhat confused about this "Feminine Supremacy" bit. I think the
concept is good, especially after what men have done to "screw up the world".
I am willing to accept that women can do a much better job
of managing our resources, and managing things. I am willing to help when and
where I can, but what am
I as one individual expected to do? If I am to be a slave, (and I will
consider this), how can I help- what am
I to do specifically ? Please let me know- I really want to help.

I'll pull up one of my old posts listing things that I think people
can do to help...What follows is that post.

To my mind, here are some things we can do to make a better world for
all concerned:

1. If you work in a creative arena, try to do depictions of
strong women as just that, strong women. Not freaks. Not
evil. Simply women who happen to "have it together." Today's
media still demonizes the strong woman to a certain extent,
media still demonizes the strong woman to a certain extent,
having a hard time showing her as a normal human being.
Strong female characters are at best depticted as cold or
lesbians (what het woman would be strong?), at worst depicted
as uncaring bitches who would just as soon mutilate a man as
look at him. A woman can be strong and feminine, strong and
human, strong and caring, etc. The more books, short stories,
television shows, movies, etc. which portray this kind of
character, the more people will be exposed to the "idea" that
this kind of woman can actually exist and that strength in a
woman isn't unhealthy.

2. Those of you who desperately want to help women don't have to
wait until some specific woman orders you to do it. Find a
woman's group of some sort, whether it be a rape crisis
center, a home for battered women, a home for teen girls, an
organization that helps single mothers, a women's political
group, etc. Donate time, money, whatever. Of course, make
sure it's one you'd be proud to donate to.

3. If you would prefer to help both genders, look for similar
help organizations that aid either sex. There are rape crisis
centers that aid both genders. There are halfway houses that
house both genders. There are societies that aid poor
families and/or poor people in general. Time and money are
both valuable to these folks as well.

4. Try not to participate in the pettiness around you. Hatred
begets hatred, violence begets violence, and "shit rolls
downhill." When folks treat each other pettily, it's a cycle,
in that one person does it to another and does it to another.
This doesn't exactly create an environment that's good for us,
families, children, friends, loved ones, etc. Try to be the
person who breaks the chain.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:28:10 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Strong women,so what?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

And now for another intersting topic(!):

I had a lecturer in Polsci once(yes-a woman) who suggested that:


.if women were in charge there would be no wars!

I totally disagree with this statement!Would anyone like to even think
of defending such a sexist statement?don't forget to mention
Cleopatra,Catherine the great,Margaret Thatcher,Indira Gandi and Benezir
Bhutto.
On another topic(dee-Ann Leblanc)yes,there is NOTHING wrong with strong
women.In fact those interested in the topic should read Ian Marcia's
article on the this subject.In fact,some people would suggest that
physically strong women are more attractive than women who are not.I
suppose it is all a matter of taste.

regards,Matthew.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:04:44 +0000
From: Andy Dowland
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Strong women,so what?
Message-Id: <315A3A0C.55F9@students.stir.ac.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

And now for another intersting topic(!):

I had a lecturer in Polsci once(yes-a woman) who suggested that:

.if women were in charge there would be no wars!

I totally disagree with this statement!Would anyone like to even think
of defending such a sexist statement?don't forget to mention
Cleopatra,Catherine the great,Margaret Thatcher,Indira Gandi and Benezir
Bhutto.

[Bit snipped]

regards,Matthew.

Hello Matthew,

It is my belief that any woman that manages to got to the top of the
tree in this male-dominated political system does so by becoming in
essence an honorary male. I will use the example of Margaret Thatcher as
she ruled the country I live in from the age of 6 until I was 18.
Margaret Thatcher had two children but didn't bother to bring them up
herself, relying on nannies to raise them. Now I realise that bringing
up children is difficult and time-consuming and causes problems with
career progress but Margaret Thatcher decided to abandon her duties to
her family to persue her political goals. Sounds like a male kind of
goal to me.

When she became Prime Minister in 1979 her hand-picked cabinet contained
_no_ women and in the eleven and a half years of her premiership she
promoted 1 woman (Lynda Chalker) to the cabinet (That may be wrong I'm
not entirely sure Chalker made it to the cabinet). Compare that to John
Major's first cabinet which included Virginia Bottomley, Gillian
Shephard in Cabinet posts plus Sarah Hogg and Judith Chaplin in senior
non-cabinet posts. I'm sorry for boring all of you but this idea of
Margaret Thatcher being an example of what government leaders in a
matriachal society would be like needs to be disproved. I for one would
hate to live in a matiarchy which was only a mirror image of our present
failing system.

Andy (AndySaint on IRC)

PS. Maybe Timberwolf could enlighten us on what he feels about female
politicians in Sweden where I belive a quota system ensures equal
representation.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GB/CS/G D- S+:++ A--? C++(++++) UM+ P L E--- W+++ N++ o? K !w !O M-
!V PS++ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5 X++ R+ !tv b+ DI? D- G e++ h(+) !r(+) y-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:44:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: IMHO
Message-Id: <199603280844.AAA00999@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1509

Steve55260@aol.com wrote:

No one who spoke about cars mentioned on of their greatest drawbacks
which should be mentioned: The huge amount of space they consume. When
people speak about all the pollution cars cause they forget all the land
devoted to roads and parking which could be put to better use if it was not
being used to transport and store cars. Mass transit systems tend to move
more people energy efficently as well as using less land.

The problem is that the mass transit system has to be well done and
efficient. Otherwise, it's a waste of time. There are cities in the
US where public transit isn't even considered a reliable form of
transportation when you're applying for a job. If you want to see
people using mass transit become more of a given than an oddity, you
need to find or create groups in your area that are pushing for better
mass transit. This will also require a lot of PR work, to convince
people that mass transit really is the "wave of the future."

I don't own a car because I live in Vancouver, Canada, which has an
excellent mass transit system. There are some interesting experiments
going on here with environmentally friendly fuels for busses, ferries,
etc.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 06:15:00 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Strong women,so what?
Message-Id: <199603281415.GAA23517@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

Andy wrote:

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

.if women were in charge there would be no wars!
I totally disagree with this statement!

this idea of Margaret Thatcher being an example of what government
leaders in a matriachal society would be like needs to be disproved. I
for one would hate to live in a matiarchy which was only a mirror
image of our present failing system.

Certainly women can be avid for war. Look at St. Joan of Arc, for
example. The Amazons of antiquity are famous. And the Women's
basketball team the CT Huskies (GO HUSKIES) are nothing to sneeze at,
either. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 06:13:54 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Message-Id: <199603281413.GAA18724@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

I have seen mail that has said women are kinder, gentler, etc.
What is the proof of this? There have been survays done, I know, that
supposedly PROVE that men are the ones who beat women. Yet if we take
the surveys raw data (instead of the socalled conclusions) and draw
our own conclusions we find that in almost every catagory of what is
considered "abuse" women far out number the men as abusers.

I assume you are prepared to back this up with unassailable cites?
Also, there is the question of degree...a mother who spanks a naughty
child, vs. a serial murderer, for example.

It's true some women are abusive and criminal, and such women would not
be given free rein in a femdom society, but, heaven willing, would
recieve proper justice they way a criminal should. The difference is
men who behaved in a criminal fashion would certainly come to justice,
even if their victims were women.

I believe this thinking is largely due to the fact that the average
man is bigger and stronger then the average woman. Always has been
probably always will be.

By that logic, horses should dominate us, because they are bigger than
us.

Same thing for men and women. I do not support men hurting women in
anyway nor do I support women hurting men in any way; but if someone,
regardless of race, creed, color, national origion, religeon, or
gender attacks me I feel I should have the right to defend myself to a
point where THAT person will forever leave me alone.

Well, of course. Women want the same thing. Until fairly recently we
were actually advised to submit quietly to abuse, and to consider rape
a fact of life, and to take lower wages and sexual harrassment on the
job as occupational hazards, and in short, to accept second-class
citizenship without question or complaint. In a femdom world, this
would be regarded as a quaint and insane folly of the past.

Men or women who are brutal and anti-social would need proper restaints
put upon their actions, and certainly no civilization can remain
peaceful without a well-regulated justice system. I'd like to know
what others on the list think are proper remedies for dealing with the
violent individuals in a humane society.


--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:46:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Ronald Forster
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

If I can jump in:

Research by Murry Struss and Richard Gelles is considered amoung the
best. For a summary you might read "Women Are Responsible Too" by Judith
Shervin, Ph D. and JIm Sniechowski in the June 21, 1994 edtion of the Los
Angeles Times.

Ron

On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Barry Emerson Wright wrote:



On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Mark Bedell wrote:

What is the proof of this? There have been survays done, I know, that
supposedly PROVE that men are the ones who beat women. Yet if we take the
surveys raw data (instead of the socalled conclusions) and draw our own
conclusions we find that in almost every catagory of what is considered
"abuse" women far out number the men as abusers.

Mark,

Please give me exact details of the surveys to which you refer.
The surveying organization, the demographics of the polled population,
the sort of questions asked and the dates of the surveys would be
appreciated.

Sincere thanks,

Barry


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:08:22 -0800
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Message-Id: <199603290105.RAA16757@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

You wrote:


Men or women who are brutal and anti-social would need proper restaints
put upon their actions, and certainly no civilization can remain
peaceful without a well-regulated justice system. I'd like to know
what others on the list think are proper remedies for dealing with the
violent individuals in a humane society.

I have very little tolerance for the individuals who commit the horrific
actions and heinous crimes we've all heard about over the years. These
crimes against innocent victims make my blood boil and when they are repeat
offenses, I really *PING* off the walls.

I believe many of these criminals are the product of being abused because
they were unwanted children. A society run by women would help eliminate
unwanted childbirths. Until such time as we can guarantee quality child
rearing for all children, or until we can can provide a *GUARANTEED* method
of permanent rehabilitation for these dangerous criminals, I think we should
treat them like broken toys. Fix 'em or trash 'em.

Mark Gajb

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:27:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

Men or women who are brutal and anti-social would need proper restaints
put upon their actions, and certainly no civilization can remain
peaceful without a well-regulated justice system. I'd like to know
what others on the list think are proper remedies for dealing with the
violent individuals in a humane society.

This is a tough one for me to answer, since I've never lived in a humane
society. San Francisco and Portland were the closest, but even the
general tolerance and viable tribes are just the beginning of the revolt
against the patriarchy. So this will have to be theoretical on my part.

In a humane society violent crime would be lessened, since such root
causes as poverty, abuse, access to weapons (BTW, I own several firearms
and love to target shoot, but I'd gladly give up my hobby to promote
safety; remember that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will
accidentally kill their children) and the culture of greed would no
longer exist. Unfortunately, there would be aberrations, as I believe
some folks are "born bad" no matter what culture they enter.

Perhaps our European friends could give us a perspective from their more
humane and much less violent societies. Not that they're perfect, but I
do believe that they're farther down the road than America in these respects.

Okay, I'll start it off. Isolation. I think punishment only lowers
ourselves to the level of the criminal, but some people simply need to be
kept away from the nonviolent populace. Treatment and therapy whenever
possible and effective. Strong and constant reminders that the rest of
us will not tolerate violent behavior.

Our current society has a totally warped view of the causes and
prevention of crime. Remember how the republicans scored such effective
political points in 1994 by ridiculing the "midnight basketball" teams
set up by "bleeding heart liberals"? One of these programs is here in
Portland and is supported by the Police, Sherriff's and District
Attorney's offices. Why? Because it afforded young people an
alternative to the idleness that breeds criminal activity.

Somebody else's turn! Looking forward to your views.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:42:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Ronald Forster wrote:

If I can jump in:

Research by Murry Struss and Richard Gelles is considered amoung the
best. For a summary you might read "Women Are Responsible Too" by Judith
Shervin, Ph D. and JIm Sniechowski in the June 21, 1994 edtion of the Los
Angeles Times.

Ronald,

Much obliged, Friend, but since you seem to have the information
at hand could you summarize it, let us know if you think it is valid or
prejudiced, and compare the violence of men and women in terms of
frequency and severity?

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 11:59:32 EST
From: magnus.thelander@mailbox.swipnet.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Strong women,so what?
Message-Id: <199603291130.MAA05388@mailbox.swip.net

28 Mar 96 08:04, Andy Dowland wrote to the list:

AD PS. Maybe Timberwolf could enlighten us on what he feels about
female
AD politicians in Sweden where I belive a quota system ensures equal
AD representation.

Not really. It's not a formal quota system, but in the last
election women's organizations more or less threatened to form a
Women's party, and that caused the Social democratic party to promise
to give half of the positions in the government to women. I don't
think the other major parties in Sweden have made similar pledges.
Among the experts working in the deparments, men still dominate
though.

As some may know, Sweden just got a new prime minister and
president of the social democratic party. For a long time a woman
named Mona Sahlin was the prime candidate, but the media found out
that she had used the government credit cards for personal purchases.
I think she had seen to that these purchases later had been deducted
from her pay, but the damage was done, and her candidacy was
cancelled. Some like to think this information was leaked to the media
by her enemies within the party.

Magnus

.. Microsoft: Software for dummies.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmoe, Sweden

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 07:25:36 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Message-Id: <199603291525.HAA15613@ix2.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

Okay, I'll start it off. Isolation. I think punishment only lowers
ourselves to the level of the criminal, but some people simply need to
be kept away from the nonviolent populace. Treatment and therapy
whenever possible and effective. Strong and constant reminders that
the rest of us will not tolerate violent behavior.

Good thinking. :)

I recently rescued a dog from the pound, and brought her home to be a
house pet. While I was there talking to the dog warden about what a
good candidate my pet-to-be was, I asked what became of the aggressive
dogs that they impounded, expecting her to say they were impossible to
place, and therefore were destroyed.

She surprised me by saying that they were often placed with guard-dog
services, and after proper training became excellent guard dogs, who
showed loyalty and affection to their trainers and owners, and
terrifying raw force to perceived enemies and trespassers. Few dogs
are irredeemably bad, she told me. The ones who had to be destroyed
were usually old and diseased, and therefore difficult to place.

This can be applied to humans. I believe violent individuals can be
trained to be soldiers, for example. Many of these hot-tempered people
only lack education, training, and proper opportunities. For those who
are actually mentally diseased and therefore handicapped, treatment and
controlled circumstances should be provided.

Take a gangster away from their gang, and insert them into a peaceful
environment that rewards cooperation and peaceful solutions, and they
will either breathe a sigh of relief and get with it, or will be
restless, disruptive and wild. Put them into a situation that exploits
and rewards their proclivities, and they are more likely to settle into
it and be successful. Not all criminals prefer to be criminal...many
do it out of desperation. Others are driven by neurochemical
imbalances, or brain damage. Others had unfortunate childhoods filled
with brutality, and know nothing else. So, I feel, the solution
depends on the individual, and on societiy's ability to respond.
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:
Re: Hello
Go green! :)
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Research and Newsgroups
Re: Go green! :)
Benefits
Thoughts Of An Older Male
Re: Go green! :)
Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Re: Go green! :)
Re: IMHO
Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Re: Benefits
Re: IMHO
Re: Benefits

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 06:58:34 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199603251458.GAA11020@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

It appears to me that the arguments for female supremacy are
arguments for socialism.

I believe in instituting a meritocracy, where I think women will
predominate, but certainly many men will have important roles to play.


--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:19:18 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Go green! :)
Message-Id: <199603251519.HAA23499@ix6.ix.netcom.com

That would e.g. mean not owning and using a car. Cars are one of the
most destructive things built by humanity. They use huge amounts of
resources, when they are built, they expend finite resources, when
they are used, and no matter how clean the exhaust gases are, they
must contain carbon dioxide, which contributes to the green house
effect. Not owning or using a car is probably one of the most
significant contributions to improvement of the environment an
individual can make...

Magnus

I agree, that's why I have never driven nor owned an automobile. :)

I live as simply as I can, recycle, and instead of buying new things, I
most often buy second-hand goods, thereby extending their useful life
and saving resourses. This is also less expensive, so I save money
too.

I admit to being a bit fanatical, but it's a game to me to see how
close to the ground I can live. I prevent disease with healthful
living and moderate habits, and this includes whooping it up now and
then, because merriment keeps you sane and healthy.

I had all my children by natural birth, at home, and nursed them
instead of buying formula or giving them cow's milk. This has many
benefits, of course, including promoting solid good health and
fostering a strong family bond.

I'm raising my kids to have a cooperative and far-sighted approach to
life. They understand that what they do in life affects the future,
and that they have a duty to themselves, to their family, and to their
community, to live a good life and give at least as much as they take.

It may please you to know that there are lots of people like me around,
and our numbers are growing! :)




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 96 11:37:22 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-ID: <960325163722_100604.1736_GHW39-3@CompuServe.COM

Barry wrote:

Still, I'd like to remind everyone that if you're interested in
sex, binaries or bdsm there are excellent alternatives to this List.
alt.sex.femdom and alt.sex.bondage come to mind, and I'm sure there are
others. Please do a bit of research and I'm sure you'll get better results.

As someone just getting the hang of finding his way to
information, could you please explain how one gets
to the alternatives, such as alt.sex.femdom and alt.sex.bondage.
Also, a little bit of advice on how to carry out research
to get better results would be appreciated.

Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:07:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Wesley Mouch
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I believe in instituting a meritocracy, where I think women will
predominate, but certainly many men will have important roles to play.

Then could I have a definition of meritocracy.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$ THE INVISIBLE HAND $
$ Caleb Orion Brown $
$ University of Louisville $
$ cobrow01@homer.louisville.edu $
$ http://www.louisville.edu/~cobrow01 $
$ liberte! egalite! fraternite! $
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:20:46 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199603251720.JAA17128@ix14.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

Then could I have a definition of meritocracy.

Sure. Look in a dictionary.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:30:21 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Research and Newsgroups
Message-Id: <199603252130.NAA05043@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2072

Abie wrote:

As someone just getting the hang of finding his way to
information, could you please explain how one gets
to the alternatives, such as alt.sex.femdom and alt.sex.bondage.
Also, a little bit of advice on how to carry out research
to get better results would be appreciated.

Abie, you _do_ have a special problem: You have a CompuServe
account. CompuServe allows access to some but not all Usenet
newsgroups, and I've heard (read, actually, rumormonger that I
am) that CompuServe specifically shuts out the alt.sex.* newsgroup
hierarchy. It's also hard to attach binary files using CompuServe
email, but that may depend on your interface and which OS you are
using.

You may want to consider getting an Internet shell account. They
are cheap to free depending on where you are in Europe. Magnus,
Lanoline or Timberwolf might be able to suggest a good service
near you, and you should connect with local users or a nearby
university or library for more advice.

Keep your CompuServe account: at some point you'll be glad you
did, even if some services cost too much. Good, gray, stodgy
CompuServe has access to massive, deep databases of all sorts (well,
most sorts) and is still a very place for serious networking and
the reserach tips you are looking for. The monthly magazine is
also full of tips and search strategies.

The Human Sexuality II forum may still be up, and isn't half bad.
It's under the general Health hierarchy on CompuServe (or was).

Keep doing what you just did: Ask. Keep asking. Plunge in.
Make mistakes. Learn. Make more mistakes. Good luck!
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:19:45 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Go green! :)
Message-Id: <199603252219.OAA11009@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3300

I agree, that's why I have never driven nor owned an automobile. :)

Yaaaay! :]

I'm still stuck with mah pickup truhck, but I envy anyone in
the US who can pull that off. Here in the west it's almost
impossible outside of the Northeast and the cities of the
Northwest. (My brother and his wife live in Vancouver and
make do with their bikes and excellent public transportation.)

Voters in the west repeatedly refuse to invest tax monies
or authorize bonds for modern urban transportation systems,
or even promote sensible zoning, which leaves many working
single parents and the elderly pretty much dependent on the
kindness of strangers. So _there's_ something to work for.

And I admit it: I would go postal if I lost mah pickup truhck.
There's no other way to get into the mountains or desert.
But at least I have a bumper sticker that says, 'Lighten Up!'

I live as simply as I can,

I prevent disease with healthful
living and moderate habits, and this includes whooping it up now and
then, because merriment keeps you sane and healthy.

Yep! :)

I had all my children by natural birth, at home, and nursed them
instead of buying formula or giving them cow's milk. This has many
benefits, of course, including promoting solid good health and
fostering a strong family bond.

I'm raising my kids to have a cooperative and far-sighted approach to
life. They understand that what they do in life affects the future,
and that they have a duty to themselves, to their family, and to their
community, to live a good life and give at least as much as they take.

Beautiful. That 'far-sighted' is especially important.
That may be the heart of intelligent living: _Everything_
we do has consequences, and everything is connected.

It may please you to know that there are lots of people like me around,
and our numbers are growing! :)

Best news I've read in a while, Ms L :)

I could not possibly 'top' (oops) your lifestyle, but I aim
for something similar: I live and work in a small house I
built (mostly) myself to be low-energy. It's packed with insulation
and creative venting, and has no central heating or refrigeration.
(I use evaporative cooling when it gets over 100f / 38c, and I've
seen similar designs for colder climates). Except for Mr Computer
the TV and the fridge, I'm gadget free: gone are the fax, the
microwave and the VCR; the hot water is (mostly) solar. I recycle, and
use my gray water for the plants, water at night, drip irrigate
where I can, and keep my ditches clean. (This is hot climate
Green.) Weeds and cuttings go right back into the ground, or into
compost. I car pool and share rides a lot. The ultimate sacrifice
is that I have neither cable TV nor -the true masochist- a remote!

Two easy little books widely available and worth looking at:
_Simplify Your Life_, and
_Inner Simplicity_,
both by Elaine St James, Hyperion, New York.
Save a tree and borrow them soon. :)

coyote sings


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:12:26 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Benefits
Message-Id: <199603252312.PAA16989@netcom7.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 4204

Bunge wrote (in part):

From: live@mks.brain.net.pk (Bunge, Loves all)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 08:06:00 PST

C.S. says:

Welcome, Bunge, and enjoy. :)

Thanx.. Ms./Mr./Mrs. :) (I don't know Ur gender)

Male (biologically, otherwise not so sure...)

Bunge said:
I am interested in the benefits of female supremacy.. are there any?
Cs replied:
Well, the top 3 on my list are oxygen, potable water and an
adequate food supply in the next century.

What is the relation of these things to female supremacy?

If womens' values prevailed, there would be less demand on
the earth's resources, less pollution and less population growth.
If we continue living the way we are, especially in population
growth, we will lose our basic life-support resources. Technology
won't save us, because the materials upon which it is based will
be depleted.

(I admit this is perhaps too simple a view of how the world works,
but I trust women more than men to manage population growth,
resources and industrial demand.)

Male supremacy is already managing
these things in this century and has done it for centuries...

Here we disagree: the 'managing' has involved great waste
of raw materials, water and forest resources, not to mention
trade wars and conquest as the price of progress. I am not simply
talking about the modern industrial states: all producing societies
create waste and loss. The male values of acquisition and secure
paternity both distort speed up the growth-use-waste-demand cycles.
Male-think leads us to want much more than we need, and to re-invest
too little of what we acquire.

How come an
inexperienced female supremacy will do the job? Will the females come to
the fields and plough and males will give birth to children? :)

Hey! There's an idea! :)
(We in industrial countries forget the realities of life
in other places.)


an end to overpopulation, and mutual respect for everyone.

Education is the answer to this problem. Not female supremacy.

Education, yes. But how many women around the world really
(are allowed to) make this decision?

Overpopulation is a problem in the under developed countries not in U.S.
etc. and people in these countries mostly are unaware of Condoms etc. Also
being less educated, males use females only as sex tools. Female dominance
over man also might produce significant results :) (although i doubt it)

You're in Pakistan, so I won't argue that point: You might see
North America and Europe as almost empty, but we aren't.
Mexico, which is now our partner in NAFTA, has an enormous
population problem which affects economic life in the US and
Canada. (It also has great possibilities.)

If women in Mexico made their own child-bearing choices (meaning
their sexual choices), overpopulation would not be a problem.
(There would be other problems, but not this one.) They are free
in law to say 'No,' but not in custom or culture. There men rule,
and have since the Spanish conquest, if not before.

What creativity can be achieved by female supremacy? By femdom, there can
be lots and lots of fun and creativity, but with fem supremacy the shadows
are perhaps tooooo long to fade. :)

I feel =more= free to follow my creative urges (mostly in
enterprise and in public life) by working and living in a
woman-dominated environment. There is no hierarchy, and
great incentive to find a better way and excel at what I do
without the poison of politics. Work and play come together.
(Usually.)

Will someone please send me some femdom binaries..! I only have access to
email and it is really a tideous job to get them from here.

Try the alt.sex.femdom newsgroup or write to it at
alt-sex-femdom@cs.utexas.edu.
This mailing list is different in many ways.

Peace.

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 96 18:24:45 EST
From: "Dennis O'Hara" <101342.2030@compuserve.com
To: FS
Subject: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-ID: <960325232445_101342.2030_GHW42-1@CompuServe.COM

Hello to all friends of the Newsgroup

I am a UK male close to reaching his 50th year, and one who has (after a few
months enjoying the views of the Group members) decided to come out of the
'lurking' closet and express a couple of personal thoughts :

1. Whilst I embrace (with all my heart) the concept of a female dominated
society, the unfortunate facts are that the individual qualities of women vary
to the same extent as in the male species. I am not convinced that the world
would not be eventually run by the female equivalent of the self serving male
politicians we suffer today. I have lived through the Thatcher Era, and
although admiring some of her actions, she still started a war in the Falklands
for her own political ends. Just recently, an Aristocratic lady member of our
Conservative political party moved, at a Party Strategy meeting, to re-house
hundreds of homeless people into a asbestos condemned tower block in order to
take them out of a marginal Conservative borough into a safe opposition
borough, thus removing them as a voting threat. I fear that whether the world
is run by women or men, it may remain the same, scum will float to the top and
suffocate the ideals of all the decent people below.
2. Is there a place for the non masochist in the Female Dominated Society ??
Although I dip into JWs Femdom group (and admire him for the courtesy he
reflects in his e-mail responses), I do find the content somewhat biased towards
the slave desperately looking for a Mistress, with the hope of eating all
sorts of things, and generally being totally abused. Whilst I admire the true
masochist who suffers for his Mistress pleasure, and equally admire the
Mistress who enjoys administering the suffering, many of these slaves seem to
desire self gratification rather than the need to please. During my life I have
had the pleasure of serving two Mistresses, and at no time during these
relationships have I received any form of corporal punishment. All that I have
ever found necessary was a look, a word or a stern dressing down, any of
which would be enough to ensure my total attention. It is a paradox in my life
that I dislike bossy women (I left my first wife purely because of that very
reason), yet I have been extremely happy to obey the two dominant women I have
met. To me, truly dominant women enjoy the intellectual and sensual nuances of
their power, whereas the bossy woman has no real insight. May I also add
that I met both of the dominant women through normal everyday life (so dont
give up chaps!!), and I believe that there are thousands of ordinary women in
this world who are just waiting for the right male to empower her. I believe
that there are many intelligent women (with a dormant desire to dominate) who
are happy to respond to a discrete and friendly approach. I count myself among a
chosen few males (and this group contains a lot of them) who truly like and
adore women, and find no stigma attached to worshipping the right ones.

I apologise for the length of this missive, but I genuinely feel that this group
stands for real discussion , rather than cheap thrills. I will finish now,
and carry on reading The Gothic tower, Sebastion has just received his 200
lashes OUCH !!

Lastly, I would like to say how much I admire Ms Laura Goodwin, whos energy
keeps this group alive. I hope her dreams become a reality.

Dennis

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:28:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Go green! :)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hello, Friends,

On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

I agree, that's why I have never driven nor owned an automobile. :)

Well, I got away with that for 35 years, mostly because I lived in large
cities with decent mass transit. Here in Portland it wasn't too good but
I helped found a group called the Transit Riders' Association in order to
promote a better system. We win some and lose some, but in the meantime I
became an Anesthesia Technician and was likely to be called in at any
hour, whether the buses were running or not. So I ended up buying one,
but at least it is a little four-banger and I do my own maintenance so
emissions, spills, etc. are kept to a minimum.

I live as simply as I can, recycle,

Big affirmative on that one! Portland has an excellent recycling program
and even though I do almost all of my own cooking my garbage bills are
minimal. We also have good places to buy food in bulk so packaging is
cut down.

this includes whooping it up now and then

Such as the occaision of the sixth anniversary party? I will be there in
spirit, Laura.

It may please you to know that there are lots of people like me around,
and our numbers are growing! :)

Couldn't have said it better myself, and probably not as well :-)

Peace from Oregon, my Friends,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:08:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: FS
Subject: Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Dennis,

Welcome to the Community! The list has been active of late, and
I'm glad you're now on it. Please keep posting.

Peace,

Barry





the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:35:17 -0800
From: BigDaddy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Go green! :)
Message-ID: <31577405.4339@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

Hello, Friends,

On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

I agree, that's why I have never driven nor owned an automobile. :)

Well, I got away with that for 35 years, mostly because I lived in large
cities with decent mass transit. Here in Portland it wasn't too good but
I helped found a group called the Transit Riders' Association in order to
promote a better system.

I moved from Portland a year ago and can vouch for Mr. Wrights
appraisal of that city, a "green" place indeed. Allowing that, I was
surprised to find that Minneapolis has a much broader recycling program
than my beloved Portland. Unfortunately the public transportaton here
is lacking. The light rail system in Portland is saving thousands of
gallons of gasoline a day. Wakeup American cities, clean efficient
Public Trans. saves road construction, reduces pollution and relieves
the stress of commuting on the elongated parking lots somtimes referred
to as freeways.
What does any of this have to do with this forum? In general
I observed females to be the majority of public trans. ridership. Of
course riding on a bus or train is more "submissive" than powering
around in a monoxide-mobile. I'm reminded of a joke a female co-worker
shared with me:

What's the difference between a porcupine and a porche?
With a porcupine the pricks are on the outside!

Roland
--

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:54:27 -0500
From: Steve55260@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: IMHO
Message-ID: <960325225425_177889204@emout08.mail.aol.com

Hi all;


No one who spoke about cars mentioned on of their greatest drawbacks
which should be mentioned: The huge amount of space they consume. When
people speak about all the pollution cars cause they forget all the land
devoted to roads and parking which could be put to better use if it was not
being used to transport and store cars. Mass transit systems tend to move
more people energy efficently as well as using less land.

IMHO in RE competition vs cooperation in the world order is that in
order for the world to operate efficently there must be a balance.
Competition spurs inovation and indivual creatative thought; were as
cooperation give indivuals the human power to see these ideas effectively
used. ie. one person has to have the vision, but several are required to
make the vision a reality.

Peace :)

Steve

Charge in where Angels fear to tread... it may be a better place just waiting
to be discovered.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 96 11:24:40 EST
From: Jens Reinhardt <100744.1745@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-ID: <960326162439_100744.1745_EHV78-2@CompuServe.COM

I also would like to read the Gothic Tower.

Could one send it in zipped PC-version

to 100744,1745@compuserve.com ??

Thank you, Jens

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 96 11:20:02 EST
From: Jens Reinhardt <100744.1745@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Benefits
Message-ID: <960326162001_100744.1745_EHV78-1@CompuServe.COM

Hi, I'm Jens. I take part in this newsgroup about a few weeks. I'm very
interested in the femsupremacy-discussion, even if I do not agree with the
arguments for women -and only them - ruling our world.
I rather believe this idea could lead to chaos...

Coyote Sings wrote:

If womens' values prevailed, there would be less demand on
the earth's resources, less pollution and less population growth.
If we continue living the way we are, especially in population
growth, we will lose our basic life-support resources. Technology
won't save us, because the materials upon which it is based will
be depleted.

Looking on the women I know, I only can say that their way of life and waste of
resources in every-day-life is even worse than that of many men I know.
Especially thinking of the young women I must say that I don't believe that
their values could lead to a better way of dealing with the problems of the
world, especially speaking in terms of peace and war, techology and resources.
I don't know how people in USA think of it, but here in Europe women tend to be
less conservative with those things - and I use the word "conservative" in it's
ancient, real meaning.

Jens

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:50:22 -0500
From: defiant@interlog.com (alan)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: IMHO
Message-Id: <199603261846.NAA20486@gold.interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Not to put too fine a point to it, but for those whose environmental
conscience is disturbed by automobiles, fine. No problem. Do without.

I cannot.

Cars are tools. Despite arguments in favor of mass transit (great in urban
areas), I, for one, will not be moving back to horse-and-buggy technology.
There are too many journeys which would otherwise be near-impossible to make.

Sophistry in arguing space requirements, enivironment, competition vs
cooperation, innovation, creativity, vision and reality is, IMO, navel-gazing.

All those elements must be marketed. Business is still business.


alan


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:54:47 -0500
From: defiant@interlog.com (alan)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Benefits
Message-Id: <199603261850.NAA21333@gold.interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jens makes sense. To attribute all these wonderful and moralistic and
decent and kind and smart values exclusively to women is delusional.

A pedestal is one thing. Carte blanche is another.


alan


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:
Re: ULC celebrates 6 years
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Hello
Welcome, BigDaddy
Re: Hello
Humor. (Was: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills)
Re: Hello
Re: The Gothic Tower
Re: Kewl Goddess URLs
Re: Fwd: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills

------------------------------

Date: 24 Mar 96 09:03:36 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: ULC celebrates 6 years
Message-ID: <960324140336_100604.1736_GHW158-3@CompuServe.COM

Very best wishes for your birthday party.

Would love to be there serving you,

but I am so far away, in the UK.

Will worship u from afar.

Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 08:29:17 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199603241629.IAA15468@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

What creativity can be achieved by female supremacy? By femdom, there
can be lots and lots of fun and creativity, but with fem supremacy the
shadows are perhaps tooooo long to fade. :)

Will someone please send me some femdom binaries..! I only have access
to email and it is really a tideous job to get them from here.

Hoo, boy, how's *that* for a beginning?

Look chum, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding going on here.
You see, this is a femsupremacy list for people to discuss the merits
of female supremacy. We've already heard enough discouraging talk
against the idea, and frankly, were unimpressed.

Now, get it straight...you are not likely to be popular if you trash
our favorite notion, then demand favors.



--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:37:40 -0500 (EST)
From: THE INVISIBLE HAND
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Look chum, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding going on here.
You see, this is a femsupremacy list for people to discuss the merits
of female supremacy. We've already heard enough discouraging talk
against the idea, and frankly, were unimpressed.

I understand that a great deal of the female supremacy argument lies in
spirituality. Not being a very spiritual person, I find it hard to latch
onto some of the ideas. From what many on the list have said, I suppose
that this is my loss. If there are arguments that would appeal to an
"economist" of sorts, I'd like to hear them.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$ THE INVISIBLE HAND $
$ liberte! egalite! fraternite! $
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:02:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

A lot of traffic all of a sudden! I just got back form the Coast
but I figured I'd throw in my .0214 (inflation, ya know :-) ) anyway.
I'm very tolerant of new folks since I'm not far from being there
myself. Still, I'd like to remind everyone that if you're interested in
sex, binaries or bdsm there are excellent alternatives to this List.
alt.sex.femdom and alt.sex.bondage come to mind, and I'm sure there are
others. Please do a bit of research and I'm sure you'll get better results.
One person asked why females would do a better job running this
planet than males have, and another asked for economic reasons for
supporting female supremacy. The answers are intertwined, because their
roots lie in the gender identity that may be inherent from birth (this is
an issue of spirituality which is best left to be addressed by those more
knowledgeable than I) but is certainly inculcated from birth: male
competition and female cooperation.
In any area of endeavor cooperation works better than
competition; even in the most "masculine" activities such as war or
sports teamwork is the first priority. It is the short-sighted desire
for power that has gotten us into this mess, and adopting the values of
Female Supremacy offers us the best chance of getting out of it.

Peace from Oregon,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:31:50 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199603241931.LAA06634@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 958

I understand that a great deal of the female supremacy argument lies in
spirituality. Not being a very spiritual person, I find it hard to latch
onto some of the ideas.

It'll pass. I said the same thing in my 20s and 30s. :)
Not to worry. When you need to know yourself better, and
connect, you will, one way or another. Meanwhile, no big deal. ;]

If there are arguments that would appeal to an
"economist" of sorts, I'd like to hear them.

In a word,

overpopulation.

Peace,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:48:08 -0800
From: BigDaddy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-ID: <3155C318.3370@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

THE INVISIBLE HAND wrote:

I understand that a great deal of the female supremacy argument lies in
spirituality. Not being a very spiritual person, I find it hard to latch
onto some of the ideas. From what many on the list have said, I suppose
that this is my loss. If there are arguments that would appeal to an
"economist" of sorts, I'd like to hear them.

This may define the whole problem with males understanding the
advantages of female supremacy. Our logic doesn't translate intuition
and spirituality the same way as most females. Many women will approach
a given problem/challenge with a more peaceful, composed and toughtful
attitude than most men. Is this a better way? Who knows, women don't
get the chance to dictate how our society is run. The possiblities
should at least be examined. My opinions are based on simple people
watching. The more cooperative less hostile nature of most females
is already tranforming the workplace. I applaud it!
First post to this type of mailing list, please advise if I broke any
protocal.
--
---------------------------------------------
When I die, I want to go peacefully.
In my sleep, like my grandfather.
Not screaming like the passengers in his car.
---------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:58:45 -0500 (EST)
From: THE INVISIBLE HAND
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

One person asked why females would do a better job running this
planet than males have, and another asked for economic reasons for
supporting female supremacy. The answers are intertwined, because their
roots lie in the gender identity that may be inherent from birth (this is
an issue of spirituality which is best left to be addressed by those more
knowledgeable than I) but is certainly inculcated from birth: male
competition and female cooperation.

It appears to me that the arguments for female supremacy are arguments
for socialism. I generally reject socialism as a failed means of
achieving a better world. Capitalism (i.e. competition) is the system
that feeds the world (world hunger has declined 15% in the past 30 years
or so). Competition breeds innovation and technological advancement,
which allows this world to support more people without limiting the basic
rights of citizens to reproduce and live life as they wish.

In any area of endeavor cooperation works better than
competition; even in the most "masculine" activities such as war or
sports teamwork is the first priority. It is the short-sighted desire
for power that has gotten us into this mess, and adopting the values of
Female Supremacy offers us the best chance of getting out of it.

I do not believe capitalism works less efficiently than "cooperation" in
achieving goals. If the goal is a social one, that some feel a market
cannot achieve, then fine. Let's see the costs and benefits of
competition versus cooperation. A blanket statement blatantly expressing
that cooperation works better than competition (without regard to type of
endeavor) is, to say the least, shortsighted.

It is my opinion that women make better managers of people than men.
When there is a requirement for interpersonal skills, women dominate.
However, the food that goes into our mouths may have little to do with
how well people can relate and cooperate. That is a tangible thing that
needs to be produced in the most efficient means possible. That means,
in my opinion is capitalism, a system built on self-reliance (not
patriarchy or matriarchy) and open, honest competition, which is the best
way to see technology and life-extending invetions flourish.

The ideas of maximization of profit and minimization of cost will far
outlive any governmental structure, no matter who is in charge. That is
one statement on which you can bank.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:12:49 -0500 (EST)
From: THE INVISIBLE HAND
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Overpopulation is the only argument that I have heard to suggest that
women need to be put in charge.

Before I say this, I think that women should initiate and control all
sexual relations. I think that decisionmaking regarding parenting and
personal growth and development are things that women can best make for a
family. Socially, women are eminently more qualified than men to deal
with people on a social level. (managing people, personal problems, etc.)

However, to say that the world is overpopulated and will continue to do
so is strange. Worldwide fertility rates are on a downward trend as
technology gives women the ability to control their own bodily
destinies. Yes, there will be more people on this earth tomorrow than
there are today. This is a trend since the dawn of history. However, if
we believe Reverend Malthus when we form our theories of population, then
the world is going to Hell. However, Malthus was wrong when he said that
the world would have to reduce its food consumption and live at a
subsistence level. What did he ignore? Technology, and the ability of
more people to create more innovations than ever dreamed
previously...giving this earth the capacity to handle more people...

But, assuming that overpopulation is the reason that women need to be
placed in control of all governments and economic functions in our daily
living, it doesn't seem to answer the "problem" of overpopulation. Why
will women somehow be able to diminish the rate of population growth
worldwide? I just don't think it matters who is in charge. I think that
these problems transcend sex.

I am a firm believer that women need to be directed into higher paying,
high prestige jobs like never before. I want to see more men telecommute
and stay home with the children. In order to achieve a better world for
women, is it necessary to hand over the means of production and control
to a centralized group of central planners?

I urge anyone here to read THE ROAD TO SERFDOM by F.A. Hayek. He argues
that central planning is the worst form of poison to economic well being
on earth, and that competition requires cooperation between business
associates.

Thanks.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:18:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Welcome, BigDaddy
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

BigDaddy,

Welcome to the group! I liked your ideas, and hope to see more
of them.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:03:32 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199603242303.PAA05999@netcom12.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3733

The Invisible Hand wrote:

It appears to me that the arguments for female supremacy are arguments
for socialism. I generally reject socialism as a failed means of
achieving a better world. Capitalism (i.e. competition) is the system
that feeds the world (world hunger has declined 15% in the past 30 years
or so).

Socialism is dead: the microchip killed it, just it is now
killing classic capitalism (and all other -isms) by forcing a
radical redefinition of such notions as 'capital' and 'property'
and 'wealth.' The Worker's Paradise and the heroic fantasies of
a free-market Nerd Apocalypse are both empty scenarios, written
as they are in a dead language. Karl Marx and Ayn Rand froze to
death in each others' arms.

The good news is that both cooperation and competition (I would
call it something else- any ideas?) are very much alive, but are
now the _tools_ used in any number of experiments, some wonderful,
some (like modern China) grotesque.

I work in an environment of sole proprietors or small partnerships,
mostly women, in which we all make our way by taking on ad-hoc
projects in any number of combinations, selling our goods and
services where there they are needed. The roles of vendor, client,
contractor, subcontractor, supplier, partner, lmited partner,
general partner, etc are all exchanged from job to job, and
whatever organization emerges is more like a circle or a grid
than a hierarchy. We all simply do our best, and as Rodney King
implored us to do, we just 'get along.'

At first glance, this is total free-market _bazaari_ capitalism
at its best. But if we didn't all share, and help one another, and
at times purchase or price together, it wouldn't work. More to the
point, we are still here, while our dog-eat-dog, mostly male
competitors have dined on each other. There is competition, and
there is competition. :)

Competition breeds innovation and technological advancement,
which allows this world to support more people without limiting the basic
rights of citizens to reproduce and live life as they wish.

_Any_ nurturing environment breeds innovation and creativity.
My desire to excel and create or go to Mars is not driven
by market forces- it's driven by a need to say 'I am.' or
'we are.'

Making money is both fun and necessary (as a way of keeping
track of resources and achievements) but I would be a poor person
indeed if that's all I lived for. The person who dies with the
most toys dies, period.

I go for the 'I am' and the 'we are,' and I generally trust
women more than =traditional= men to make that possible. My
creativity and my freedom to be a spontaneous, show-off little
boy is much safer in the hands of my Big Sisters :) or a
world informed by their values.

Let's see the costs and benefits of
competition versus cooperation.

If we're open about how define costs and benefits, it'll work.
And aren't 'cooperation' and 'competition' simply ingredients,
just as 'labor,' 'land' and 'capital' once were?

A blanket statement blatantly expressing
that cooperation works better than competition (without regard to type of
endeavor) is, to say the least, shortsighted.

Isn't any blanket statement shortsighted? :)

Peace.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 23:21:00 +0100
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Humor. (Was: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

24 Mar 96 04:50, Coyote Sings wrote to the list:

CS or even post-phallic behavior (without scripts or

What does that mean?

CS manipulation), love and care of children, the elderly and animals, and
CS a sense of =humor=.

Just saying that they expect to find a sense of humor in their partners is
not enough IMHO. You'd probably be hard pressed to find someone completely void
of a sense of humor. Different people are amused by very different things
though. I think most people look for someone with *their* sense of humor. Is
there a typically female and male sense of humor?

CS Some practical ideas that come to mind are: Go Green, study and

That would e.g. mean not owning and using a car. Cars are one of the most
destructive things built by humanity. They use huge amounts of resources, when
they are built, they expend finite resources, when they are used, and no matter
how clean the exhaust gases are, they must contain carbon dioxide, which
contributes to the green house effect. Not owning or using a car is probably
one of the most significant contributions to improvement of the environment an
individual can make, but how many are capable and|or willing to do that?

Magnus

"Of course people have the right to smoke, but not around people, who have the
right to breathe."
---Larry Hagman

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 01:27:00 +0100
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

24 Mar 96 18:37, THE INVISIBLE HAND wrote to:

TH I understand that a great deal of the female supremacy argument lies
TH in spirituality. Not being a very spiritual person, I find it hard to
TH latch onto some of the ideas. From what many on the list have said, I

I share that problem with you unfortunately.

TH suppose that this is my loss. If there are arguments that would
TH appeal to an "economist" of sorts, I'd like to hear them.

Or perhaps someone, who believes in natural science, I.e. what can be "seen"
and measured. To quote Fox Mulder, I want to believe, but I'm a critical kind
of person, and usually demand evidence, before I can truly believe. I would
very much like to believe that there is a benevolent deity of some kind, but I
find it hard to do.

It often seems to me that women find natural science offensive. Yes, it has
given us many terrifying and destructive things like nuclear arms, chemical and
biological weapons, but where would e.g. medicine be today without it? I'd be
interested to know, how the women here feel about it, and if you do find it
dispicable, what is your alternative? Perhaps I'm just confusing the
disappointment some women feel with some of the uses natural science has been
put to with their opinion of natural science in general?

Personally, I often feel disappointment, when I listen to the economists of
today. They can all point to the problems, but as far as I have seen and read,
noone has offered a solution I find acceptable.

TH $ liberte! egalite! fraternite! $
^^^^^^^^^^
I can agree with two thirds of this motto, but I find the last third
questionable. There seems to be somewhat of a brotherhood among the elite of
the world today. Among the men, who control the multinational corporations and
the officials of legislative and executive institutions. Right now it seems
we're going the wrong way very fast with increasing inequality, which
ultimately threatens the stability of societys. I think it's time someone else
got a chance to try to do better.

Magnus

"Ain't no gangstas livin' in paradise."
---Coolio

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:50:23 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Gothic Tower
Message-Id: <199603250750.XAA26145@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3037

From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:08:58 +0000
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Gothic Tower

Wrote Coyote:

I should also caution all here that apparently Jean(ne) De Stein may well
be a man,
etc.....

Wrote Timberwolf:

Well, that was strange to hear. Can you please remember where you found
this piece of "information"? I have other information (and there is also
much internal evidence, I think) that the author is a woman, that she is
Scandinavian and that she has good reason to protect her identity.


I thought I had seen read it on alt.sex.femdom, but damned
if I can find it, so I have no 'evidence' as such, beyond
simply remembering having read it. I'm sorry, doubly so
because I don't mean to mislead, and I would prefer that she
(she, note) were a woman.

I may even break my 2-year lurk on a.s.fd and ask, if it would
help.

Anyway, I think that the text stands on its own merits. If it "comes into
another light" not because you read it more closely, but because someone
supplies you with a bit of (dis)information, then that light is bound to
be spurious.

True, but why would they? _cui bono?_
Just asking.

No, but I am beginning to find very little fiction of this sort
to be written by women. This is entirely my own impression, but
very little of it (to me) has the 'feel' or the 'taste' of erotica
written by women. When I compare it to, say, fiction written by
Pat Califia or Femina's wilma or Akasha's vignettes on a.s.fd.,
I get an entirely different sense of what's going on. My instincts,
my subjective impressions (which I can rely on with great effect in
real life) tell me de Stein is a man. I feel the same way about
whoever wrote 'Harriet Marwood' or 'lollipop.'

BTW, why was the ending of 'The Horsewomen' so disappointing?

To me? Simply because it ended in what I saw as a 'switch,'
which I personally have trouble accepting. Others might not:
It's my hangup, or preference. For very real reasons in my
personal history, I have trouble accepting 'dominant' males
as anything but thugs.

Sorry about this emphasis. But I do think that the text deserves to be taken
seriously as a piece of bona fide literature.

It certainly does. No argument there. It is masterfully (oops)
written, and definitely

It *is* a love story, just as the subtitle says.

Sorry not to get back to you sooner on this, TW.
Thanks for the response, which gave me food for thought (or
at least cause to hold my water at times) in any case. Peace,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 00:01:29 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kewl Goddess URLs
Message-Id: <199603250801.AAA26822@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1327

Anyone know of others? I'm interested in pages to link SMC with :)


These might not be exactly what you had in mind, but could be worth
a look. I haven't been to any of these yet, and can't vouch for
their contents at all.

http://w3.servint.com/cognigen/fci/ma3642607.html
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
http://www.herspace.com

Herspace is a women's gateway which explores issues
relevant to the "spaces" women inhabit. It offers tips,
reviews, humor, community and links to the best women's
sites on the Web.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
From: ct@mstress.com (Carol Tang)
Newsgroups: alt.sex.femdom
Subject: New Femdom Site
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 23:47:03 GMT
Organization: Black Rose

www.cybercomm.net/~flyingc

Best wishes to the SMC on its new site!
Best wishes to the SMC period. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 00:15:22 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Message-Id: <199603250815.AAA27592@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1328

Laura Goodwin wrote (in part):

A mistress must be clear-headed about what exactly she is after in her
M/s relationship(s). If you, the mistress, are simply persistant and
never surrender your dream, eventually the most stubborn resistance can
be turned around. Start with a slave who honestly wants to be yours to
shape (and whom you actually like), then just keep after him, rewarding
him for doing as you wish, and punishing when he disappoints you. Use
his fetishes as your tools...it's the language of his own body's
cravings, and he'll pay attention on a deep level.

Never need this process become a warlike stuggle for a soul. In my
marriage our souls are both free, and united in a common task: to build
and enjoy a perfect erotic harmony in accordance with our shared dream.

Beautifully put, this last paragraph. The best relationships,
whatever their flavor, are a true team effort, and (if there
were a perfect world would) flow 100% in both directions. And in
one word (for both partners)

Give.
c.s.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #26
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:
Shoulder Rides
Re: Shoulder Rides
Re: Shoulder Rides
Kewl Goddess URLs
ULC celebrates 6 years
slaves in search of a Mistress...
Re: slaves in search of a Mistress...
Re: Kewl Goddess URLs
Re: Hello
Which OS? (Was: Re: Kewl Goddess URLs)
Re: Kewl Goddess URLs
Re: slaves in search of a Mistress...
Re: slaves in search of a Mistress...
Will you guys please cut it out!?
Fwd: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Fwd: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Re: Hello
Re: Will you guys please cut it out!?
Re: ULC celebrates 6 years
Re: ULC celebrates 6 years
Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Re: Hello

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 96 06:19:00 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Shoulder Rides
Message-ID: <960322111859_100604.1736_GHW55-1@CompuServe.COM

Hello Mark,

I am interested in exploring the waves of femsuprem and above all being able to
communicate.

Saw your note re shoulder rides, an interesting subject. Am replying to you
through the simple REPLY NOW option on your message. Would be interested to know
if this kind of communication goes to everyone who is subscribed or just to you.

Should u wish to contact me direct, the ID would be
internet:100604.1736@compuserve.com

Best wishes in your search for information.

Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 96 07:43:34 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Shoulder Rides
Message-ID: <960322124333_100604.1736_GHW122-1@CompuServe.COM

Mark,

It would appear that I have found answer to my own question, re communication.
Replies sent by clicking on the REPLY button do in fact go to everyone. I have
just received copy of my own message.

Will be interested to hear what kind of response you get to your research.

Abie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:18:45 -0500
From: almg@soho.ios.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Shoulder Rides
Message-Id: <199603221318.IAA11540@soho.ios.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Abie,
I'm sure you've had a million responses by now, but yes, your message went
out to all subscribed. Sorry if this has been one in a number of an
overwhelming amount of responses, but I look forward to all of my mail
because of the neat sound Eudora light makes:). Have a great day, and I hope
femsuprem will have a positive effect on humankind, because mankind has
certainly not assured our offspring of an happy and endless existence.
Peace and Love,
Bruce
At 06:19 AM 3/22/96 EST, you wrote:
Hello Mark,

I am interested in exploring the waves of femsuprem and above all being able to
communicate.

Saw your note re shoulder rides, an interesting subject. Am replying to you
through the simple REPLY NOW option on your message. Would be interested to
know
if this kind of communication goes to everyone who is subscribed or just to
you.

Should u wish to contact me direct, the ID would be
internet:100604.1736@compuserve.com

Best wishes in your search for information.

Abie

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:57:42 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Kewl Goddess URLs
Message-Id: <199603221757.JAA09237@ix15.ix.netcom.com

For a great animated Goddess screen-saver:
http://www.efn.org/~rayo/Goddess.html

For a rogue's gallery of "dark" goddesses:
http://www.csulb.edu/~persepha/DarkGoddess.html

Don't forget SMC web page in progress:
http://www.darkside-goddess.org

Anyone know of others? I'm interested in pages to link SMC with :)




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:10:59 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: ULC celebrates 6 years
Message-Id: <199603221810.KAA20069@ix16.ix.netcom.com

United Leatherfolk of CT, a pansexual non-profit support/social group
which is administrated by founder Laura Goodwin, is officially 6 years
old at the end of March. :) A big, hot, wet, invite-only BDSM party is
planned for March 30th.

Our quarterly newsletter in the form of a text file is available by
request via email for similar clubs and groups. We also invite other
leather clubs to share their newsletter with us. :)

For info about ULC, email ulofct@aol.com or lalaura@ix.netcom.com
Snailmail: POB 281172 East Hartford, CT 06128-1172


--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:04:57 -0800
From: probe@ix.netcom.com (Maverick )
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: slaves in search of a Mistress...
Message-Id: <199603230004.QAA20481@ix5.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

Goddess,

I give myself to you.

I will be your slave.

Please, I besearch you, send me your instructions.

I am on my knees before you.

Yours humble male slave.


********************Reply **********************

my Mistress may be interested in taking some slaves, send an
email and she will review your proposal...


slave philip (slave of Mistress C.S.)




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:18:03 -0500
From: I2bme4@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: slaves in search of a Mistress...
Message-ID: <960322211802_452668747@emout04.mail.aol.com

Please tell me if I might be worthy of being a male slave to a great
mistress.
what would be expected of me? What could I contribute ? What would the aims
of my mistress be ?
(perhaps to better the world that male-kind has polluted, to free the people
they have subjucated, and to
improve the lot of persons of both sexes that have done poorly.)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:57:35 +0100
From: jaquet@dial.eunet.ch (lanoline)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kewl Goddess URLs
Message-Id: <199603230857.JAA23035@chsun.eunet.ch
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

404 Not Found

The requested URL /~rayo/Goddess.html was not found on this server.

?
i couldn't find Madam.

humble regards
lanoline


For a great animated Goddess screen-saver:
http://www.efn.org/~rayo/Goddess.html

For a rogue's gallery of "dark" goddesses:
http://www.csulb.edu/~persepha/DarkGoddess.html

Don't forget SMC web page in progress:
http://www.darkside-goddess.org

Anyone know of others? I'm interested in pages to link SMC with :)




--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 18:57:00 PST
From: live@mks.brain.net.pk (Bunge, Loves all)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <032396185734Rnf0.78@mks.brain.net.pk

Hiya People,

I am interested in the benefits of female supremacy.. are there any? Also
I am interested in femdom binaries (images). I will be looking forward to
getting some from the respected members of the list.

Bunge
live@mks.brain.net.pk

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 23:59:00 +0100
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Which OS? (Was: Re: Kewl Goddess URLs)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

22 Mar 96 18:57, Laura Goodwin wrote to:

LG For a great animated Goddess screen-saver:
LG http://www.efn.org/~rayo/Goddess.html

For which OS is it intended?

Magnus

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:51:36 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kewl Goddess URLs
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, lanoline wrote:

404 Not Found

The requested URL /~rayo/Goddess.html was not found on this server.

The correct address is http://www.efn.org/~rayo/goddess.html

Note the lowercase "g" not the uppercase "G"

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 10:58 EST
From: Michael Thomas <0006725291@mcimail.com
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Re: slaves in search of a Mistress...
Message-Id: <53960323155835/0006725291DF2EM@MCIMAIL.COM


You wrote:

Goddess,

I give myself to you.

I will be your slave.

Please, I besearch you, send me your instructions.

I am on my knees before you.

Yours humble male slave.


********************Reply **********************

my Mistress may be interested in taking some slaves, send an
email and she will review your proposal...


slave philip (slave of Mistress C.S.)





slave philip

and hom might i write to Mistress C.S. what is her email address??

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 11:19 EST
From: Michael Thomas <0006725291@mcimail.com
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Re: slaves in search of a Mistress...
Message-Id: <41960323161914/0006725291DF4EM@MCIMAIL.COM


You wrote:

Goddess,

I give myself to you.

I will be your slave.

Please, I besearch you, send me your instructions.

I am on my knees before you.

Yours humble male slave.


********************Reply **********************

my Mistress may be interested in taking some slaves, send an
email and she will review your proposal...


slave philip (slave of Mistress C.S.)




slave philip

my Mistress is nikki at nikki23@kktv.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:09:33 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Will you guys please cut it out!?
Message-Id: <199603231709.JAA19900@ix16.ix.netcom.com

Goddess,
I give myself to you.

my Mistress may be interested in taking some slaves, send an
email and she will review your proposal...

and hom might i write to Mistress C.S. what is her email address??

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:35:22 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Message-Id: <199603231835.KAA12204@ix11.ix.netcom.com

---- Begin Forwarded Message
220 27003 <4j1di0$qbg@cloner3.netcom.com article
Path: ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com(Laura Goodwin)
Newsgroups: alt.sex.femdom
Subject: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Date: 23 Mar 1996 17:48:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4j1di0$qbg@cloner3.netcom.com
References:
<4it70b$fvt@newsbf02.news.aol.com <4ivjet$jou@crl12.crl.com

NNTP-Posting-Host: har-ct6-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Mar 23 9:48:49 AM PST 1996

In

I am the type of dom that likes the challenge of the taming process
again and again. That is a very exciting process for me, and I like to
have to work hard to acheive. I still haven't determined if I am more
the exception or the rule in this case.

Akasha, do you need to always bring a fresh partner into your life to
do this? If that's what works for you fine...I know lots of BDSM
people who tire of their partners and need fresh horizons to keep their
excitement level up. How to keep the freshness in a long-term
relationship, though? I know some people do this, by imagining that
they aren't themselves, that they've just met, etc.

Speaking of two kinds of submission, it's true that some subs need to
cultivate a long-term relationship, and are after the glories
particular to that, whereas others are in a never-ending quest for the
new. In the Pro-scene circut there are thousands of clients who are
what I call "mistress collectors", that is, their goal in life is to
sub to any and all of the dominant ladies who will try them. The other
kind of guy finds this demeaning and scary, or just plain unfulfilling.
The latter is likely to surrender his whole life to his lady-love.
He's also unlikely to hold much back for long. The two populations
don't have much beyond the superficial BDSM trappings in common.



--
Laura Goodwin <---that friendly Hartford CT lady

If our right to go to hell in our own way is attacked,
so is our right to go to heaven in our own way.

"The Bill Of Rights Is Past Due!"
---- End Forwarded Message

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:31:52 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Message-Id: <199603231831.KAA20120@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com

---- Begin Forwarded Message
220 27002 <4j1cof$3d3@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com article
Path: ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com(Laura Goodwin)
Newsgroups: alt.sex.femdom
Subject: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Date: 23 Mar 1996 17:35:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4j1cof$3d3@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com
References:
<4it70b$fvt@newsbf02.news.aol.com <4ivjet$jou@crl12.crl.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: har-ct6-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Mar 23 11:35:11 AM CST 1996

In <4ivjet$jou@crl12.crl.com duane@crl.com (Duane Gundrum) writes:

Wizard 451 (wizard451@aol.com) wrote:

:a tamed will speaks to me about the transaction that the other
:responders have been suggesting. This is not meant to in some way
:"tuned" to the will of the Mistress. Once tuned, the process becomes
:one of refinement and redefinement around the relationship between
:two people both tuned one to the other.

I guess I would pretty much agree here. I'm still learning to be my
mistress's slave to this day. I don't always do everything completely
right, and although I always strive to, I'm learning that there's
always a lot more I can learn from her about how she wants me to serve
her.

Well put, gentlemen. :)

I never set out to break anyone...the idea of willfully breaking a
person's spirit is sickening to me. I believe in training a willing
person, and I use persusion and pleasure to keep them willing and urge
them on to greater achievements.

A mistress must be clear-headed about what exactly she is after in her
M/s relationship(s). If you, the mistress, are simply persistant and
never surrender your dream, eventually the most stubborn resistance can
be turned around. Start with a slave who honestly wants to be yours to
shape (and whom you actually like), then just keep after him, rewarding
him for doing as you wish, and punishing when he disappoints you. Use
his fetishes as your tools...it's the language of his own body's
cravings, and he'll pay attention on a deep level.

Never need this process become a warlike stuggle for a soul. In my
marriage our souls are both free, and united in a common task: to build
and enjoy a perfect erotic harmony in accordance with our shared dream.

--
Laura Goodwin <---that friendly Hartford CT lady

If our right to go to hell in our own way is attacked,
so is our right to go to heaven in our own way.

"The Bill Of Rights Is Past Due!"
---- End Forwarded Message

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:41:59 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <199603232041.MAA11002@netcom.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 982

Bunge signed on:

Welcome, Bunge, and enjoy. :)

and asked:

I am interested in the benefits of female supremacy.. are there any?

Well, the top 3 on my list are oxygen, potable water and an
adequate food supply in the next century.

The list continues with such small things as less war,
an end to overpopulation, and mutual respect for everyone.

Also somewhere on my list is a world truly open to transcendence
and creative possibilities of all sorts.

How's that for a beginning? :)

Thank you for asking. Peace.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:48:01 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Will you guys please cut it out!?
Message-Id: <199603232048.MAA12311@netcom.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 377

|)

Thank you, Ms L.,
and best wishes to all on alt.sex.femdom, alt.personals.bondage,
etc.

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:14:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonathan Krall
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: ULC celebrates 6 years
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:
United Leatherfolk of CT, a pansexual non-profit support/social group
which is administrated by founder Laura Goodwin, is officially 6 years
old at the end of March. :) A big, hot, wet, invite-only BDSM party is
planned for March 30th.


Ms. Goodwin,

Congratulations on ULC's 6 years! I know from experience that 6 years
of service for a leather organization is a feat worth celebrating.

jonathan


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:31:03 +0100
From: Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: ULC celebrates 6 years
Message-Id: <199603232131.WAA07924@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

United Leatherfolk of CT, a pansexual non-profit support/social group
which is administrated by founder Laura Goodwin, is officially 6 years
old at the end of March. :) A big, hot, wet, invite-only BDSM party is
planned for March 30th.

Laura Goodwin

Happy birthday

I wish ya a great party, Laura
But it is sooo faaar away.


Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:56:41 -0500
From: I2bme4@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Message-ID: <960323215640_453320613@emout04.mail.aol.com

to whomever:

I am somewhat confused about this "Feminine Supremacy" bit. I think the
concept is good, especially after what men have done to "screw up the world".
I am willing to accept that women can do a much better job
of managing our resources, and managing things. I am willing to help when and
where I can, but what am
I as one individual expected to do? If I am to be a slave, (and I will
consider this), how can I help- what am
I to do specifically ? Please let me know- I really want to help.

Kathy (tv)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:50:57 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Owning wills vs. breaking wills
Message-Id: <199603240350.TAA15413@netcom21.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2864


to whomever:

I am somewhat confused about this "Feminine Supremacy" bit. I think the
concept is good, especially after what men have done to "screw up the world".
I am willing to accept that women can do a much better job
of managing our resources, and managing things. I am willing to help when and
where I can, but what am
I as one individual expected to do? If I am to be a slave, (and I will
consider this), how can I help- what am
I to do specifically ? Please let me know- I really want to help.

Kathy, I can only speak for myself, but given that you are
a tv, my guess is that you're already doing a lot of it by actually
living in a woman-like way and by taking on the values of the
women around you. And perhaps having the courage to be 'out' and
an example to others. If I were 30 years younger and had it do over
I would do it your way.

Beyond that, the women I know seem to look for a lot of very
common-sense (but rare) qualities: mutual respect, loyalty, trust,
honesty (perhaps above all others), kindness, gentleness,
responsibility, acceptance, a willingness to listen, an open mind,
a cooperative (as opposed to competitive) spirit: in other words
all those things that males have demanded of women the last 6000
years or so.

The women I follow (whether in business or public life, or privately,
or spiritually) all expect a reverence for nature (or usually an
active commitment to preserving it), an openness to awe or a
spritual path (in any or several forms), erotic submissiveness or
even post-phallic behavior (without scripts or manipulation),
love and care of children, the elderly and animals, and a sense
of =humor=.

I can't speak for others, but it works for me. :)

Some practical ideas that come to mind are: Go Green, study and
support womens' public issues, support and patronize woman-owned
businesses, hire women, mentor women, promote women, vote for women,
study and practice womens' spirituality (in its many forms, both
ancient and emerging), be mentored by a woman, follow women in
any situation. There's no one single cause or party to join, but
the opportunities are endless, whether you work from the outside
to promote change, or work from within (which is what I often do).
There's a =long= way to go, no matter what you do.

And talk it up! :D

Sisterhood is powerful, and I'm not. Peace,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 08:06:00 PST
From: live@mks.brain.net.pk (Bunge, Loves all)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id: <032496080638Rnf0.78@mks.brain.net.pk

C.S. says:

Welcome, Bunge, and enjoy. :)

Thanx.. Ms./Mr./Mrs. :) (I don't know Ur gender)

Bunge said:
I am interested in the benefits of female supremacy.. are there any?
Cs replied:
Well, the top 3 on my list are oxygen, potable water and an
adequate food supply in the next century.

What is the relation of these things to female supremacy? The exhale
Oxygen instead of Carbodioxide? :) Male supremacy is already managing
these things in this century and has done it for centuries... How come an
inexperienced female supremacy will do the job? Will the females come to
the fields and plough and males will give birth to children? :)

an end to overpopulation, and mutual respect for everyone.

Education is the answer to this problem. Not female supremacy.
Overpopulation is a problem in the under developed countries not in U.S.
etc. and people in these countries mostly are unaware of Condoms etc. Also
being less educated, males use females only as sex tools. Female dominance
over man also might produce significant results :) (although i doubt it)

and creative possibilities of all sorts.

What creativity can be achieved by female supremacy? By femdom, there can
be lots and lots of fun and creativity, but with fem supremacy the shadows
are perhaps tooooo long to fade. :)

How's that for a beginning? :)
Yeah.. :)

Will someone please send me some femdom binaries..! I only have access to
email and it is really a tideous job to get them from here.

See ya,

Bunje

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #25
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:
Re: New subject: old subject
Re: Introduction to the group
Re: Introduction to the group
SEND archive Re: SEND archive Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Re: Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Brief Introduction
Re: Brief Introduction
Re: Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Re: Brief Introduction
Re: Brief Introduction
Re: Brief Introduction
Re: The Gothic Tower
Re: Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Re: A copy request
Re: Literature
Re: Literature
Shoulder Rides

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:43:48 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: New subject: old subject
Message-Id: <199603182343.PAA00857@netcom3.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5060

Hello again, Ms L, and thanks very much for the reminder.
The topic was/is, I believe, 'Goddess/Wise Woman spirituality resources
online' if not exactly under that caption.
Some of this resource list does indeed need updating:

NEWSGROUPS:

(At the risk of being the Net-Nazi again, I would _beg_ new visitors to
these Newsgroups to lurk for a time until you really get the flavor of
the forum. Especially avoid raising overtly BDSM-only issues,
advertising for a Mistress or otherwise spamming the place. That's not
what they're for. Please. Please. Thank you. -c.s.)


alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna

Still thriving, and still the best single Goddess site in Usenet.
See remarks on alt.magick.tantra, below.

alt.magick.* (magick with a 'k')

A new group, alt.magick.tantra, has been very helpful when it's active.
Frequent posts by Tyagi Nagasiva and Catherine Yronwode, and generally
quite spiritual, technical and at the expert level but definitely worth
a prolonged lurk for tantra novices such as myself.

alt.mothersuperior

The old Femina Society study hall, now
quiet to dead, mostly attracting money-making spams.

alt.pagan
alt.religion.sexuality
alt.religion.wicca
alt.society.neutopia

to name the best known ones. All have 'lull' periods (except neutopia),
so it's a good idea to check back in from time to time. Start reading
one and you'll soon see pointers to the others.

The Kali newsgroup is a fave of some here has at times thoughtful
discussions of Female divinity (by whatever name) and a number of
unique documents on ritual, etc found nowhere else. Good discussions of
Tantra from time to time and more Vedic than pagan, but really open to
any good ideas about She Who Is. Some very colorful people. A good
place to start.

The alt.mothersuperior newsgroup carries a large body of Kali/Godddess
materials, including the best of the above. Right now it's quietish.

Past tense. But the space is still there to take posts.

Another newsgroup, alt.women.supremacy, started last year with
much the same purpose as this mailing list, but without the
safeguards of a moderated list. It had some very exciting and
provocative discussions but was a lightning rod for male flamers,
skinheads and spammers. Now they seem to have moved on, and some
good new discussion is being posted, including some gems from
Laura Goodwin and perhaps others from this list. :)
Similar to this list in content (a place where erotic Femdom.
Feminism, resources for women and Wise Woman spirituality come
together). Some wannas and occasional flames, but not a problem.
We should be posting similar discussions here, hey ;]
(said he, looking at his watch).

Neutopia is about =everything=, but Feminist theology is
discussed from time to time. Doctress N. makes some very
provocative assertions from time to time, worth discussing.

The other religion and magick newsgroups of course have a lot of
Goddess material, but not exclusively.

MAIL LISTS:

Crone is about Wise Woman lore in general, and one of the richest for
the practical aspects of WW spirituality and daily life. Mainly about
the lives of midlife women, but open to women of any age and thoughtful
men. A good place for serious inquirers to learn from their elder
Sisters. NOT repeat NOT a Femdom or BDSM oriented place, and for
serious posters only, ImHO.

Crone I died, briefly, and has been replaced by Crone II, which began
under new management with an avalanche of posts, so many I turned off
my mail from them without unsubscribing. I'll turn it on again, see how
they're doing and post back here. A very worthwhile site if you don't
mind 30 posts a day or more.

So, please DON"T

Write to
crone-request@********.***

I'll get the new pointers and get back here with them.

Crone posts will point you to several other lists or resources, e.g.,

Aphrodite (for women only) quoted below (from a blurb on crone):

Is anyone subscribing? Being male, I stayed out.

It's always

nice to know more about the SMC and its resources,
online and off. They are first and foremost religious.

Laura Goodwin kindly posts on this from time to time.
See also the blurb written in Green Way's _The Dominatrix in Print
and Media_ resources newsletter, the published monthly on a.s.fd.

A former member here, Ms Holly, has (or had) an SMC-oriented BBS
at 415.664.2386. Does anyone know if this is current?

alt.lesbian.feminist.poetry has some interesting crossover from
time to time.

Peace.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:52:44 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Introduction to the group
Message-Id: <199603190352.TAA11355@netcom2.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2278

Deb Nyberg wrote:

Hi, I'm Deb Nyberg. Most people refer to me as the crazy
Texas/Cajun in Gridley, Illinois.

Welcome! :)

I am the owner of Image Media . . .
and I want to be known in the group as a networking asset for all
women. Most of what I can offer is "women in business stuff."

Which is very much needed, perhaps as much as anything else
that happens for women in the '90s. It may be that women may
simply need to find one another -especially online- and just
start talking. The rest could easily follow without anyone
orchestrating anything.

Not exactly rocket science on my part, but it needed saying.

In addition, I have created and maintain, with the help of many
volunteer women in business, a site called "Women In Business
Cyberspace Field of Dreams" It's motto is "If you build it...they will come"

It is located at http://www.gridley.org/~imaging/links.html

which we should all pass along, right? I certainly will.
You may hear from some of my friends directly at some point.

I think you will be impressed with "the field," and permanently link
to it for it's value to all women. I am trying to keep abreast of the
needs of women networking. This page was designed specifically with that
in mind. We also would like to have direct bid opportunities from major
players on the field!

Yes, another piece of the puzzle: getting on the right bidders'
lists and networks (and building your own in the process), finding
the right pages, etc.

This is very heartening. I work in an environment where most
of my clients and associates are women, and every time I see
someone like you come along I feel as though it's really happening.
Please keep doing what you're doing, and post as much here as you
can.
Thank you, Deb and again, welcome. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:49:48 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Introduction to the group
Message-Id: <199603191849.KAA16949@ix6.ix.netcom.com

Hi, I'm Deb Nyberg.

"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get
run over, if you just sit there." --Will Rogers

Hi Deb, and *welcome*! :) I love your .sig
I'm Laura Goodwin, High Priestess of SMC (a Goddess worship church for
femdoms) and an activist/writer. :) I run a non-profit support group
for BDSM people in Hartford, CT, and I'm happily married, with 3 kids.
I guess I have been with the list for at least a year.

See you around :)



--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:49:48 -0500
From: steve unroe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: SEND archive Message-ID: <314F2BFC.5BD2@orion.branch-co.lib.mi.us
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

--=20
MZ=90

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:58:57 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: SEND archive Message-Id: <199603192158.NAA22460@netcom6.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 565

Steve, just a quick guess, but I think you needed to send that to
femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com
(not just 'femsupremacy@*') with the command in the
subject line: SEND archive tantra.
with no brackets around tantra.

I don't work here, so I'm not sure, but give it a try.

Peace
c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:36:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Deb,

I'm one of the gender-challenged members of the NewsList but
contribute when I can. A warm welcome, and please post frequently in the
future.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:11:48 -0500
From: I2bme4@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Message-ID: <960319210931_356304653@emout06.mail.aol.com

Dear Barry:
Thanks for your kind wishes, Itwas sweet of you.

Love Kathy

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:41:21 -0800
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Brief Introduction
Message-Id: <199603200338.TAA11704@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Greetings to all!

I am a new subscriber and wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. My
name is Mark and I am a male living in the Vancouver area. I am extremely
happy to have an opportunity to share discussions and beliefs on female
superiority. I look forward to conversing with you and possibly meeting some
of you.

Last night I also discovered there is a Goddess worship church in San
Francisco that I hope to join if they will accept me. I would love to
receive their newsletter and travel there as often as possible to
participate in some active worship.With airfare getting cheaper and cheaper,
that may become a reality.

I have always had a need to worship women for as long as I remember. Even as
a young boy, I enjoyed pulling the neighborhood girls in my wagon or giving
them rides around the block on my shoulders. I love working hard for a
women. If only my boss were a women, the company would certainly be getting
many times their moneys worth out of me.

Anyway, before I babble you to pieces, I'll say bye for now but I certainly
hope to hear from some of you in the near future.

All the best...

Mark

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:58:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Brief Introduction
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Mark,

Welcome to the Group! This is a very good place for information,
discussion, and references. We seem to be adding new members quickly....

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:49:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 I2bme4@aol.com wrote:

Dear Barry:
Thanks for your kind wishes, Itwas sweet of you.

Love Kathy

___________________________________________________________________

Kathy,

There are a lot of sweet people on this List. Why not post more
often and get to know us?

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:37:49 +0100
From: Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Brief Introduction
Message-Id: <199603200637.HAA30667@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anyway, before I babble you to pieces, I'll say bye for now but I
certainly
hope to hear from some of you in the near future.

All the best...

Mark


Hello and welcome , mark.

My name is bernd i am a man, living in europe/vienna and since everybody is
introducing herself :
i am 30 and i am on this list because i want to share the ideas and visions
about a women oriented society with others. I strongly believe that a
matriachal order will give both genders more sense and pleasure of life.
And i learned from real life that this is not only a vision but true.

If only my boss were a women, the company would certainly be getting
many times their moneys worth out of me.


How true. Old dream of mine too......:)
They are great on top. Sometimes i think how was it ever possible to push
them under patriachal rules, it is a shame isnt it?





Bernd Angerer
(Bernd.Angerer@atnet.co.at)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:31:03 -0800
From: mgajb@axionet.com (Mark Gajb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Brief Introduction
Message-Id: <199603200728.XAA23078@cortex.axionet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks for your comments Bernd. I look forward to more discussion in the
future with you on the subject of female supremacy.

Mark



Anyway, before I babble you to pieces, I'll say bye for now but I
certainly
hope to hear from some of you in the near future.

All the best...

Mark


Hello and welcome , mark.

My name is bernd i am a man, living in europe/vienna and since everybody is
introducing herself :
i am 30 and i am on this list because i want to share the ideas and visions
about a women oriented society with others. I strongly believe that a
matriachal order will give both genders more sense and pleasure of life.
And i learned from real life that this is not only a vision but true.

If only my boss were a women, the company would certainly be getting
many times their moneys worth out of me.


How true. Old dream of mine too......:)
They are great on top. Sometimes i think how was it ever possible to push
them under patriachal rules, it is a shame isnt it?





Bernd Angerer
(Bernd.Angerer@atnet.co.at)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:26:11 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Brief Introduction
Message-Id: <199603201526.HAA09265@ix9.ix.netcom.com

Mark wrote:

Greetings to all!

I am a new subscriber and wanted to take a moment to introduce myself.
My name is Mark

Hi Mark, welcome to the list. :)

Last night I also discovered there is a Goddess worship church in San
Francisco that I hope to join if they will accept me.

I believe you are referring to my precious Service of Mankind Church!
:) Check our web page (under constuction):

http://www.darkside-goddess.org

See you around. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:08:58 +0000
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Gothic Tower
Message-Id: <199603202000.VAA14076@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote Coyote:

I should also caution all here that apparently Jean(ne) De Stein may well
be a man, which for me at least entirely changes the color of the whole work.
I did read somewhere in Usenet -I'm sorry I can't remember where or when-
that this was so, and even a name was supplied. The very
disappointing ending of 'Horsewomen' was another clue that JDS might indeed
be male. Not to rain on anyone's parade, but it might save some readers
some bandwidth and storage.

Well, that was strange to hear. Can you please remember where you found
this piece of "information"? I have other information (and there is also much
internal evidence, I think) that the author is a woman, that she is Scandinavian
and that she has good reason to protect her identity.

Anyway, I think that the text stands on its own merits. If it "comes into
another
light" not because you read it more closely, but because someone supplies you
with a bit of (dis)information, then that light is bound to be spurious.

BTW, why was the ending of 'The Horsewomen' so disappointing? The young
man has learnt to love and respect his mistresses. They have learnt to love and
respect him. When he finds his mistresses in mortal danger, he abandons all
thought of his own freedom and resolves to try to save them, though he must
know that he may thus revert into slavery. Then, when the road may be
blocked, he promises the two women that he will continue to love and cherish
them if they must follow him to his people. He seems sincere in this. They
however are more realistic but are still willing to prefer living with him, in
formal slavery (certainly no more than that) because they love him, and of
course each other. They do prefer this to death, at least. Still, we do not know
which alternative it will be---if the road back is open, he will certainly
accept a
continued existence as the collective property of a band of savage women,
because he respects and even loves many of them---Ariti and Ginesse and Silini,
for instance. What more do you wish? 'And then they lived happily ever after'?
This is not an imaginary idyl. Neither is it a masturbatory fantasy. It is
literature,
about a fictitious but still in a sense credible world, and credible and
sometimes
not very nice savage ladies. So, in a sense, the gender of the author is really
immaterial. Still, I am fairly convinced that it is female.

Sorry about this emphasis. But I do think that the text deserves to be taken
seriously as a piece of bona fide literature. So idoes the message of it.
And if I
read it right, it is that love and respect are basic human (male and female)
instincts and capabilities, and that they can make a superficially grotesque
relationship (however masturbatorily useful) consensual and beautiful. It
*is* a love story, just as the subtitle says.

Best regards,
TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:08:42 -0500
From: I2bme4@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Welcome, Deb Nyberg!
Message-ID: <960320170841_173175335@mail06

Hi there:

I feel a little strange in writing to this group, I am a new member and still
do not know all of the rules, and do not wish to offend anyone.I am doing it
because of the encouragement of Barry. I want to learn more (much more). I
am a male age 42, in great health, and physically active. I am a
CrossDresser, but not in public. I think I am straight (as they say), but I
am not completely sure, of anything. I do know, that woman in general have
had a rough deal and the world has been a worse place because of man's
arrogance , cruelty and stupidity towards all . Changing the world by using
phrases like Chairperson (in lieu of chairman or chairwoman) is purely
"windowdressing" We need to do a lot more than that. Woman have compassion
that men usually dont have, they care more for their fellow (excuse that
phrase) beings. Someday I hope we will see a woman president, she could
easily be better than either major party candidate we have, and we would have
a better , kinder society. Please forgive me if I sound Political
I dont mean to be that way. Please keep the messages coming, as I wish to
know more.

Love to all Kathy

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 20:09 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A copy request
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

sonja wrote:

Would you be good enough to send "The Gothic Tower" on to me as
well...

Perhaps now is a good time to tell about the archives, how to access
them, and what's in them.

--
Laura Goodwin


Checked the Archives and it's not listed. Is it under a different name? Do
you have access the rest of us don't?

Kilroy

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 20:07 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I can do that. Just tell me if you are running a PC and want it ZIPped
or a Mac and prefer it Stuffed. If a Mac, you can also have it in its
original form, as a HyperCard stack or a HC stand-alone app, graphics
and navigation buttons and all---much nicer, in fact! Drop me a line
and tell me which.

Regards,
TWolf


I was just curious if there were any supremacists out there who enjoy riding
on a man's shoulders? I have heard it can provide quite a sense of power
over the male and can also be quite stimulating.

Mark



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 23

Today's Topics:
Fwd: Int'l Women's Day: ATS-L Multiple Posting For IWD 1996
Fwd: INT'L WOMEN'S DAY: AI CALLS ON GOVTS TO PLAN ACTION ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS
Fwd: Women demonstrate in Chiapas, Mexico
Re: Literature
Mail errors
Mail errors
Re: Literature
Gothic Tower
Introduction to the group
The Gothic Tower
Re: The Gothic Tower

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 07:24:28 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fwd: Int'l Women's Day: ATS-L Multiple Posting For IWD 1996
Message-Id: <199603161524.HAA17462@ix8.ix.netcom.com

From: Arm The Spirit
Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive
Subject: Int'l Women's Day: ATS-L Multiple Posting For IWD 1996
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Date: 9 Mar 1996 19:42:44 GMT
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu

"Women Who Struggle Are Women Who Live"

International Women's Day 1996

To honour International Women's Day we are once again
sending out a multiple posting on ats-l of articles, interviews,
statements and much more on women's resistance throughout the
world. Some postings are recent documents and others are from
years back. They are all part of our effort to show the many
forms of resistance and struggle that women undertake not only
against their own oppression but against colonialism,
imperialism, racism and capitalism.
As the saying goes, "every day is International Women's Day"
and to this end we will be setting up a page on our web site with
many documents and links to and about women's struggles. By the
end of the day you can check out the page at:

http://burn.ucsd.edu/~ats/iwd-96.html

Over the coming days will be slowly building the page up
with many different documents and we hope you'll visit these
pages regularly. We also would appreciate any comments and
suggestions to help improve not only this page but the rest of
Arm The Spirit web site.

Long Live International Women's Day!
Resistance Means Life!
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".



Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

(Translated from Spanish) "La Jornada", March 9, 1996

The protest against the white guards and the military presence
dominated the march. In the capital, thousands of marchers voiced
protests against the high cost of living, democracy, equal rights, and
the cases of Aguas Blancas, and Tabasco, while President Zedillo
presented the National Women's Program 1995-2000.

Herman Bellinghausen, San Cristo'bal de las Casas, Chiapas, March 8
The Women's march through the streets of San Cristo'bal de Las Casas
was strong and soft; it was the most peaceful and orderly march Jovel
(ancient name of San Cristo'bal) has seen in theses troubled years. Or
am I exagerating? No "Coleto" (native of San Cristo'bal) shop keeper
saw the need to close up shop, noone was painting graffitti on the
walls, nor did any of the masked women who walked along Insurgentes
street looked as if she were about to eat up the children. Quite the
contrary, many of the masked women were breast feeding babies. Not all
of them were masked, nor were they all barefoot, but they were all
Indian, and Zapatista.

It was, above all a march against military occupation. It was one of
the banner's, the charicatures, the cardboard signs, and the speeches
leit-motivs. And also a march against discrimination. Those were the
dominating themes of the first public demonstration, as such,of the
newly created Zapatista Front for National Liberation.

Significantly, a women's mobilization.

The women arrived along all the roads that come down from the
highlands, groups of women dawned in the morning upon Jovel. The cool
and humid early morning leads them to the San Juan Chamula crossroad,
and from there to the Pan American Highway crossroad. Only from the
Highlands, three thousand women eventually come together. In contrast
with the women from the jungle, and from the north, their faces are not
covered, instead, they hold a white flower in their hands.

They chant slogans, "long live" and "Death to" slogans, and they walk.

The women from the north join them, wearing less ethnic clothing,
dressed more like peasants, they look stronger, and they wear ski
masks. In their banners, they are the ones who speak the most about
white guards. Those who come from the many corners of the Jungle, of
Palenque, La Realidad, and the canions in between, gather together in
front of the San Diego church, at the other end of the Pan American
Highway. Both contingents meet at the corner of Insurgentes where the
bus terminal is located.

From that moment on, Jovel's backbone is shaken by a shiver.
From one of the windows of the traditional Tepeyac School a small
grammar school voice is heard: "It's a bunch of Zapatistas!"

Or like a judicial police agent puts it to his "companion"
at the corner of the Diego de Mazariego's hotel: "Noo, 'tis a mother
fucking sight!"

Which is, in a sense, is not a meaningless way of characterizing
International Women's Day.

The Chamula Indian newspaper vendors are selling without a wink "The
Mexican Alarm Clock". The voice of the voiceless, which, in a previous
clandestine issue, included a declaration of war. Now it costs 5
pesos, and it includes the Fourth Declaration of the Lacandon Jungle,
the First Declaration of La Realidad, and Sub-Commander Marcos'
speeches at the National Indigenous Forum. It's funny to hear that
high pitched voice which invites one to some sort of complicity, and
which also sells the "Fourth Power", and the "Express" (the official
papers,) chanting: "come on, buy "The Mexican Alarm Clock", "The
Zapatista newspaper".

It's obvious that the march is a peaceful one, so the keepers of law
and order are quiet and even City Hall is open as usual. Those who
are really extremely busy are the photographers and camera men from
the offices of the Presidency, the Armed Forces, and the Ministry of
the Interior, with so many faces to capture, so many people greeting
each other, so many things to document. At times they can't keep up
with their work. Even though it is always easier to photograph
Indians...Well, to each his own (work.)

The slogans go back and forth, they turn at the Santo Domingo
Plaza, and they go towards the Cathedral's park.

"Las mujeres zapatistas no se rinden/somos listas".

"Zapatista women don't surrender/we are clever."

"Vivan las mujeres que han mostrado su valenti'a para el pueblo de
Me'xico".

"Long live the women who have shown their courage to the Mexican
people"

---- End Forwarded Message

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:45:55 -0500 (EST)
From: THE INVISIBLE HAND
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I can do that. Just tell me if you are running a PC and want it ZIPped
or a Mac and prefer it Stuffed. If a Mac, you can also have it in its
original form, as a HyperCard stack or a HC stand-alone app, graphics
and navigation buttons and all---much nicer, in fact! Drop me a line
and tell me which.

Carbon copy it to me, please.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$ THE INVISIBLE HAND $
$ liberte! egalite! fraternite! $
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:36:17 +0000
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Mail errors
Message-Id: <199603171527.QAA17453@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

When mailing the files to the friends who asked for them, the mail
bounced from the following addresses:

Bernd.Angerer@atnet.a
sonja@cybernex.ne

which also meant that I got the attached files back through my
modem connection too. Will the owners of the aforementioned
addresses please e-mail me directly and inform me of their
correct addresses, or whatever.

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 17 Mar 96 12:17:30 EST
From: Abie <100604.1736@compuserve.com
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Mail errors
Message-ID: <960317171730_100604.1736_GHW47-1@CompuServe.COM

I would be grateful if you could email me a copy of The Gothic Tower.

My email address is: Internet:100604,1736@compuserve.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:18:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Christopher Harsman" <99charsh@ultrix.uor.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 16 Mar 1996 timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:

I would also love to see a copy of this. I am writing a book the is along
these lines and I want to do as much research as I can before I really get
into the meat of the book.

I can do that. Just tell me if you are running a PC and want it ZIPped
or a Mac and prefer it Stuffed. If a Mac, you can also have it in its
original form, as a HyperCard stack or a HC stand-alone app, graphics
and navigation buttons and all---much nicer, in fact! Drop me a line
and tell me which.

I'd like to see a copy of that, too, if it wouldn't be too much bother.
Mac format preferred, HyperCard ideal, StuffIt archives almost a must.
Thanks!


Chris Harshman_______________________________________XCC System Administrator
I'm the fearless leader of the XCC, some of the most foul, cruel, and
bad-tempered Netizens you've ever set eyes on! I'm also Racer #420
in Team Festiva, proudly sponsored by the Psychic Friends Network.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:48:23 -0500
From: sonja
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Gothic Tower
Message-Id: <199603172148.QAA07529@buttercup.cybernex.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

my copy got corrupted when it was being unzipped......

can i please get the Gothic Tower sent to me this time at

sonja1@concentric.net........

most gratefully yours,

sonja
Sonja
"We make plans and God laughs."

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:39:53 -0800
From: imaging@gridley.org
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Introduction to the group
Message-Id: <199603181439.GAA07650@gridnet

Hi, I'm Deb Nyberg. Most people refer to me as the crazy
Texas/Cajun in Gridley, Illinois. I've got a funny way
of talk'n up here in the North 'cause I've only been here
3 years...having spent my first 40 years in the south.

I am the owner of Image Media. A document conversion service
bureau. It is a small woman owned business that I operate,
as well as enjoy. However, my post to you today is an introduction,
and I want to be known in the group as a networking asset for all
women. Most of what I can offer is "women in business stuff."

In addition, I have created and maintain, with the help of many
volunteer women in business, a site called "Women In Business
Cyberspace Field of Dreams" It's motto is "If you build it...they will come"


It is located at http://www.gridley.org/~imaging/links.html

I think you will be impressed with "the field," and permanently link
to it for it's value to all women. I am trying to keep abreast of the
needs of women networking. This page was designed specifically with that
in mind. We also would like to have direct bid opportunities from major
players on the field!

Well, enough said in introduction. Thanks for letting me "speak" : )

Deb Nyberg, imaging@gridley.org
Owner
IMAGE MEDIA, DOCUMENT CONVERSION SERVICE BUREAU
RR 1, BOX 156, GRIDLEY, IL 61744 309/747-2540

"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get
run over, if you just sit there." --Will Rogers

http://www.webcom.com/~imt/imaging.html

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:16:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: The Gothic Tower
Message-Id: <199603182116.NAA06991@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 709

I was away this weekend, which is why I didn't pipe up on how to get
the Gothic Tower before. To get this electronic novel, do the
following:

1. FTP to ftp.renaissoft.com
2. Login as user anonymous
3. Enter your e-mail address as your password
4. Change to the tmp directory
5. Take a look at the file INDEX, which describes what format
each of the Gothic Tower files is in
6. Download the appropriate file for your system

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:00:38 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Gothic Tower
Message-Id: <199603182200.OAA01328@netcom3.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1752

Dee wrote:

I was away this weekend, which is why I didn't pipe up on how to get
the Gothic Tower before. To get this electronic novel, do the
following:

1. FTP to ftp.renaissoft.com
2. Login as user anonymous
3. Enter your e-mail address as your password
4. Change to the tmp directory
5. Take a look at the file INDEX, which describes what format
each of the Gothic Tower files is in
6. Download the appropriate file for your system


Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
I was on the verge of uploading (to the FS archive) my very raggedy but
legible ASCII version of GT in PKZip format. It's 154 K, unzipping to well
over 300 K, so i was hoping this solution would emerge first. The file
is a reworked version of the one kindly supplied to me by Timberwolf
about a year ago.

I should also caution all here that apparently Jean(ne) De Stein may well
be a man, which for me at least entirely changes the color of the whole work.
I did read somewhere in Usenet -I'm sorry I can't remember where or when-
that this was so, and even a name was supplied. The very
disappointing ending of 'Horsewomen' was another clue that JDS might indeed
be male. Not to rain on anyone's parade, but it might save some readers
some bandwidth and storage.

It's good to be back. :)

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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From: femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com
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Subject: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #21
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:
Re: Literature
Re: Literature
Re: Literature

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 04:51:40 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id: <199603111251.EAA23470@ix10.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

I feel very good when thinking on female dominance but it is still a
very blurry image in my mind. I do not exactly know what i am looking
for but i am sure there are women who think and write about this
vision of a women ruled society.

There is not one single vision of how it should be. It seems that
women and the men who revere them have a variety of opinions about how
exactly a woman-ruled society should look/feel/work. That's why the
matriarchies of the past are so interesting to me. Go to your local
library and read anything you can find on ancient Crete, for example.
I think they enjoyed a very nice life. :)

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:45:31 +0100
From: Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id: <199603112045.VAA18550@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You wrote:

I feel very good when thinking on female dominance but it is still a
very blurry image in my mind. I do not exactly know what i am looking
for but i am sure there are women who think and write about this
vision of a women ruled society.

There is not one single vision of how it should be. It seems that
women and the men who revere them have a variety of opinions about how
exactly a woman-ruled society should look/feel/work. That's why the
matriarchies of the past are so interesting to me. Go to your local
library and read anything you can find on ancient Crete, for example.
I think they enjoyed a very nice life. :)

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


Thank you Laura
for the tip. I almost forgot old greek history especially crete which had
as much as i know no army and no weapons.
That was a really interesting culture for sure. Hm. :)
That is a really good idea, thank you. 8))
I realize that there are several visions about future and that is as you
say one of the positive, interesting things on womens discussion.
The more i think about this worldwide womens-movement happening now the
more i like it, the more i reallize how important womens view about life is
and the more i see how men-dominated our culture really is.


Bernd Angerer
(Bernd.Angerer@atnet.co.at)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:49:59 +0000
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id: <199603121841.TAA13299@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I do not exactly know what i am looking for but i am sure there are women
who think and write about this vision of a women ruled society.
Thank you for any tip.

I think that 'The Gothic Tower' by Jeanne de Stein is still in the Femsupremacy
archives and can be downloaded. This is, not about a world but a country
completely governed by women -- the Gynaecracy.

Regards, TWolf


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 22

Today's Topics:
Re: Literature
Re: Literature
Re: Literature
Re: Literature
A copy request
Re: A copy request
Re: A copy request
New subject: old subject
Dr. Neutopia's cry from the heart (40 sucks?)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:09:09 +0100
From: Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id: <199603142309.AAA18286@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I do not exactly know what i am looking for but i am sure there are
women
who think and write about this vision of a women ruled society.
Thank you for any tip.

I think that 'The Gothic Tower' by Jeanne de Stein is still in the
Femsuprema
cy
archives and can be downloaded. This is, not about a world but a country
completely governed by women -- the Gynaecracy.

Regards, TWolf


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


Thank you But i cant find it in the archive.
If it is not too big is possible to send it to me via email????
Or any tip where i can get it elsewhere?

Bernd Angerer
(Bernd.Angerer@atnet.co.at)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 19:36 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

'The Gothic Tower' by Jeanne de Stein


Thank you But i cant find it in the archive.
If it is not too big is possible to send it to me via email????
Or any tip where i can get it elsewhere?

Bernd Angerer
(Bernd.Angerer@atnet.co.at)

I would also love to see a copy of this. I am writing a book the is along
these lines and I want to do as much research as I can before I really get
into the meat of the book.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:38:25 +0000
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id: <199603161029.LAA20299@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I would also love to see a copy of this. I am writing a book the is along
these lines and I want to do as much research as I can before I really get
into the meat of the book.

I can do that. Just tell me if you are running a PC and want it ZIPped
or a Mac and prefer it Stuffed. If a Mac, you can also have it in its
original form, as a HyperCard stack or a HC stand-alone app, graphics
and navigation buttons and all---much nicer, in fact! Drop me a line
and tell me which.

Regards,
TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 12:58:18 +0100
From: jaquet@dial.eunet.ch (lanoline)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Literature
Message-Id: <199603161158.MAA11145@chsun.eunet.ch
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Please i am also very interested, if you could
send a PC zipped (2.04g) file

Thank you very much

lanoline


I would also love to see a copy of this. I am writing a book the is along
these lines and I want to do as much research as I can before I really get
into the meat of the book.

I can do that. Just tell me if you are running a PC and want it ZIPped
or a Mac and prefer it Stuffed. If a Mac, you can also have it in its
original form, as a HyperCard stack or a HC stand-alone app, graphics
and navigation buttons and all---much nicer, in fact! Drop me a line
and tell me which.

Regards,
TWolf


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 14:19:43 +1130
From: chim@collin.col.it (Mauro Chimenti)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: A copy request
Message-Id: <199603160249.OAA03994@collin.col.it
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Please,

I'd like to receive a copy of
'The Gothic Tower' by Jeanne de Stein
at my email address.

my email address is chim@col.it

in zip compression.

Thanks.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:16:47 -0500
From: sonja
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A copy request
Message-Id: <199603161416.JAA25551@buttercup.cybernex.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Would you be good enough to send "The Gothic Tower" on to me as well...

many thanks,

sonja


At 02:19 PM 3/16/96 +1130, you wrote:
Please,

I'd like to receive a copy of
'The Gothic Tower' by Jeanne de Stein
at my email address.

my email address is chim@col.it

in zip compression.

Thanks.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



Sonja
"We make plans and God laughs."

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 06:39:38 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A copy request
Message-Id: <199603161439.GAA06989@ix16.ix.netcom.com

sonja wrote:

Would you be good enough to send "The Gothic Tower" on to me as
well...

Perhaps now is a good time to tell about the archives, how to access
them, and what's in them.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 06:43:14 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: New subject: old subject
Message-Id: <199603161443.GAA17607@ix13.ix.netcom.com

NEWSGROUPS:

alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna
alt.magick.* (magick with a 'k')
alt.mothersuperior
alt.pagan
alt.religion.sexuality
alt.religion.wicca
alt.society.neutopia

to name the best known ones. All have 'lull' periods (except neutopia),
so it's a good idea to check back in from time to time. Start reading
one and you'll soon see pointers to the others.

The Kali newsgroup is a fave of some here has at times thoughtful
discussions of Female divinity (by whatever name) and a number of
unique documents on ritual, etc found nowhere else. Good discussions of
Tantra from time to time and more Vedic than pagan, but really open to
any good ideas about She Who Is. Some very colorful people. A good
place to start.

The alt.mothersuperior newsgroup carries a large body of Kali/Godddess
materials, including the best of the above. Right now it's quietish.

Neutopia is about =everything=, but Feminist theology is
discussed from time to time. Doctress N. makes some very
provocative assertions from time to time, worth discussing.

The other religion and magick newsgroups of course have a lot of
Goddess material, but not exclusively.

MAIL LISTS:

Crone is about Wise Woman lore in general, and one of the richest for
the practical aspects of WW spirituality and daily life. Mainly about
the lives of midlife women, but open to women of any age and thoughtful

men. A good place for serious inquirers to learn from their elder
Sisters. NOT repeat NOT a Femdom or BDSM oriented place, and for
serious posters only, ImHO.

Write to
crone-request@smartdocs.com.
In the body put subsrcibe crone (your name).
If that doesn't work, write directly to bree@smartdocs.com

Crone posts will point you to several other lists or resources, e.g.,

Aphrodite (for women only) quoted below (from a blurb on crone):

Aphrodite is an email list for women who based on their
belief in the Goddess and for some, a God as well, call
themselves witches. We discuss meditation,alternative
medicine, healing,women's spirituality and empowerment,
books, aromatherapy, poetry, plays, holidays and festivals,
social issues and how they affect us, dreams, crystals,etc.
It is a very positive happy space for women of all ages,
sizes, colors and nationalities to support and celebrate
each other and themselves.
women who are interested may contact Ceci at
aphrodite-l@lysator.liu.se

OTHER FORUMS:

Ask Ms C about the Women in Power forum on Delphi.

It would be nice to know more about the SMC and its resources,
online and off. They are first and foremost religious. Ms G?
A former member here, Ms Holly, has (or had) an SMC-oriented BBS
at 415.664.2386. Does anyone know if this is current?

alt.lesbian.feminist.poetry has some interesting crossover from
time to time.


--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 06:59:22 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Dr. Neutopia's cry from the heart (40 sucks?)
Message-Id: <199603161459.GAA06021@ix10.ix.netcom.com

Here is a typically long-winded but very personal post from the
Doctress. I disagree with her about many things, but I have sympathy
with much of what she says also. I'm hoping to stimulate a more
indepth exchange between subscribers to this list.

From: neutopia@genesis.nred.ma.us (Doctress Neutopia)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.sexuality,alt.pagan,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: The Lust of Forty


THE LUST OF FORTY
by
Doctress Neutopia


I have been divorced for a half a decade, splitting up with my husband
of ten years when I was in my middle 30s. When I divorced at that age,
I knew then divorce could mean that I would never have any children,
but it was a risk I had to take in order to keep my integrity since I
realized that I was not in love with my husband and that he deserved to
be loved. If I had remained married I would have been in a loveless
marriage filled with fighting and hatred since our communication was
not on the same level. He had grown so that he was not interested in
reading any of my essays or attending lectures or arts events with me.
He thought my political activism was antiquated. He taught public
speaking at Umass, but I was the one who actually practiced the art. It
never failed that when I spoke out in public when he was around, he
always said that I said something stupid or that I had not worded my
question well. But the last straw was when he started saying that I was
too dumb to learn how to use "his" computer.

Likewise I had grown bored with reading his turgid academic papers in
rhetoric and spending Saturdays watching him stare at some sports game.

I distinctly remember one Saturday when he was in the front room
watching sports and I sat on the end of the bed and thought, "Well,
Libby, this is just the way marriage is. It is dull, dull, DULL! Look,
girl, just get use to listening to sports games on TV or radio because
you will be doing it all your life. Modern marriage is about being
lonely and bored."

Then one night after he was in the after glow of his orgasm, he
declared that he was an ultra liberal (whatever that is) and that I was
a weird Neutopian. After he made his declaration, I realized that our
hearts were not in the same place and that I had been having sex with a
stranger. Of course he thought being an "ultra liberal" was the
superior position to take. His plan was to become a college professor
in communications and work to reform the system from within it by
getting into a position of power. He declared that my Neutopian
scholarship was kooky and that no one would ever listen to me since I
was not taking a reformist position by advocating a total
transformation of the system. Shortly after that, I stopped sleeping in
our bed which now belongs to him. Being back in the single's world has
not been easily. I long to find true companionship, someone whom I can
share my stories with and whom we could plan for the future together,
someone who loves my vision of Neutopia and wants to help me achieve
our most noble ideals. I wanted more than a common every day dull
marriage. I wanted revolutionary love. But I soon realized that this
quality of love is extremely rare.

So five years later, I have dated or corresponded with maybe 50 men,
and still I remain single. It is not that I haven't tried to make it
work with these men, but that I have seen certain patterns of behavior
which seem to make it impossible to love these men and for them to love
me back. Last week I had arrived at an all time low. It was after I
called Paul up on the phone and he made it clear to me that he was not
interested in any further communication what-so-ever. The entire day
afterwards I was having a nervous breakdown; the inner pain around my
heart was inflamed. I have never felt so such in utter disappear, but
luckily a woman named Mary who had made an appointment with me the week

before to meet with me to discuss an art project she was doing,
held my hand throughout the day, and took me to her apartment in
Springfield. She said that it would lift my spirits to meet her birds.
By the end of the night, she even showed me her hand gun! She carries
one because she has a cleaning business and has to go into dark places
at night to clean offices. I knew I was burned out from trying to
relate with men. It just wasn't working and trying to find love was
about to drive me to suicide, so I realized that I had to give up on
finding someone to share my life with.

How beautiful I was as I looked in the mirror, my Mona Lisa smile on my
mouth as I examined my silver streaks of hair. But my natural beauty
was not the kind of beauty which most men thought was attractive. Maybe
if I started to wear make-up, put on ruby red lipstick and practiced
puckering up my lips as if they were the lips of my vagina, would that
change the way men felt about me? Maybe if I started to dye my graying
brown hair blond and started wearing sexy clothes and high-heal
shoes like Madonna, would that give me more sex appeal if I looked
as if I was under 35? How about going to a plastic surgeon to get the
doctor to give me a face lift to tighten the skin starting to sag on my
face or got a face peal when the doctor applies some like of acid on
your face to burn off the wrinkles. I especially needed the wrinkles on
my brow burned off. They were the ones that males never fail to comment
on when my brain starts contemplating some issue revealing these deep
lines of concentration on my forehead about the ills of the world. It
was all right to have deep furrows on your head if you were Albert
Einstein, but not if you are Doctress Neutopia! But after all that
cosmetic work, I knew that I would also need is a lobotomy. I needed
the wires cut from my brain that causes me to speak out and challenge
the patriarchy which had made me into an unemployable, unlovable
outcast. Yes, it is a lobotomy that I need first and foremost so that I
can get up every morning, get a cup of coffee, aka misery juice, and
then look in the mirror and start putting on the eye shadow and eye
liner before putting on shear hose and a business woman's suit.

If it seemed that I had no one to love and create a revolution with, at
least I had myself. I had feared growing old alone, no one to whisper
love sonnets into my ear or call me up to tell their latest news. The
fear of loneliness was keeping me for doing what I needed to do, to get
my message of global peace to the world. I needed to grow up, face
loneliness with bravery and honor, and realized that love is a uncommon
event and that for whatever reason the universe had not provided or
lead me to a mate who would help me fulfill my dreams. I had better get
use to the idea of not being selected.

Being brave in the face of loneliness wasn't so difficult most of the
month, except one time of the month, the time of the month when I get
so horny that I feel that if I don't get that white cum all over my
vulva that my red hot vulva is going to explode. Really readers, my
urge to have sex at times is so great that if I didn't know how to
masturbate I would probably jump off of a tower library or go stark
raving crazy. For me masturbation wasn't some kind of self-indulgent
pleasure; it was a biologically necessarily to keep me sane. It is as
if every cell in my body is bellowing as if a red-emergency light
started flashing on board a sinking ship, "EMERGENCY, HAVE UNPROTECTED
SEX *NOW* OR DIE." Then, I felt like screaming, "SOMEBODY SAVE ME!" But
I just couldn't go downtown and think I could pick up a male hooker and
think that if I had a quick $100 dollar orgasm then everything was
going to be all right until the next attack of severe horniness.

Can you guess what time of the month the emergency light starts to
flash? It is the wet time, the time of ovulation, the time when my egg
passes through the Fallopian tubes, the time when I could become
pregnant if the egg happened to be fertilized by the sperm. Women can
tell when they are fertile. You get the feeling of being wet with
ovulation mucus, a mucus which you can spread between your fingers like
chewing gun. Being close to 40 years, I know every month when I get
this mucus that this sensation is not going to last that much longer
and that every egg that passes is one more month without sex with love.
During this time, I always have to stop and meditate on the life force
almost pulling me to call up some man and have him come over to my
house to try to impregnate me. I think, "After generations and
generations of sexual success how can I allow my unique genes to die?
How can I go against Nature and not make an attempt at reproduction? Do
I really want to be an evolutionary failure?"

What the fuck, I think to myself, the love thing is just a hoax anyway.

If I can't find love, an emotional bonding with a member of the
opposite sex, at least I can try to have motherly love for a child.
This month when these feelings came to me, I had to stop and reflect on
the situation and the relationship between nature and culture. The
reason why I haven't found an American man who I feel is suitable for a
mate and who is aroused by the idea of mating with me is because I'm
not connecting with them culturally. I just couldn't accept them on a
strictly physically level the way the marriage market demands.

Yes, folks, in the marriage market economy, women choose mates for what
their mates can provide them materially and socially. Since money rules
the world, most women want to be rich, so they will pick a rich man or
a man with the potential to be rich to mate with like a business
student. Woman like me who don't want to be rich, but want a creative
lifestyle are still trapped in the money problem because in order to
have a baby you do need a lot of incoming money. So I certainly can't
provide for achild married to a homeless guy or with (heavens no!) a
poor artist or writer like myself. How terrible it would be to have a
child and not be able to provide the child with the things and
opportunities she/he needs in order to self-actualize.

Humanity has evolves from the point of just wanting to fuck someone for
simple reasons of lust. For most people in capitalist society, here are
power and material issues involved. It is becoming apparent to me that
my genetic material is having extreme difficulty surviving in the
capitalist society and that I am on the verge of extinction. I hadn't
been able to compete and win in either the marriage market or the
business world of dollars and sense. My sexual needs seemed
to be different that most women. My hatred of capitalism had kept me
from being able to compete. For me, the cultural factors involved with
mate selection were not material. The spiritual symbol that our union
would represent is more than a biological union because I need to have
metaphysical consequences happen from our sexuality, that our holy
union is helping created a neu global culture through the joint efforts
of our labor.

The reality is that I can't find a way to connect with a man in such a
lofty, herstoric, and divine sense. Goddess knows that I had tried! I
thought that if I had been inflicted with not being able to contribute
to the biological evolution of our species, maybe what my purpose is to
contribute to cultural evolution. But I seemed to be failing miserably
on that level as well. I had tried with my ex-husband to create the
lovolution, but he never really was into it even though he invented the
word "lovolution". I had tried to be in a political partnership with
Walker after he told me that he wanted to run for the US Senate from
North Carolina, but after he started working for Jesse Helms, I knew a
partnership with him would never work. I had tried to work on a book
with sociologist/author Jon Huer which he wanted to call the "Male
Advantage". But after I said that the book should be entitled "The End
of the Male Advantage" and he thought my title was stupid, I knew we
couldn't write a book together. And I will never forget White
House journalist paul's face when I told him that we should publish a
book of our email correspondences and fear struck him down as if my
idea was horrifying. And these are only listing a few of my failed
attempts at union. It appeared that I was not only unable to reproduce
with a man on a biological level, but on a culture level as well.

So should I forget my high-minded principles and compromise? Should I
call up Don tell him that I will have sex with him and that I will have
his child if he brings in the money from his environmental engineering
job? I could end up doing what I have heard other women confess to
doing. Marry the man for his sperm and then after the baby is born
divorce him and then receive child care payments from him as long as
the courts order it. But there seemed to be something basically slimy
with that plan. Or was it? It least the man gets to father a child even
though he would not be around to raise the kid. The thought of raising
a child alone was not a pleasant or practical one since I knew the best
situation for all is to raise the child collectively with both parents
as well as the community participating in the care of the child.
As I stretch the ovulation mucus between my fingers, I felt nature was
putting profound pressure on me as I glazed out the window to the New
England landscape wondering what I should do, what kind of future I
wanted for me and my potential children? I had to act NOW. Don had to
come NOW if we were going to try to conceive this month. Oh Goddess,
what should I do? Help me!!! Do I want to be a lonely old maid the rest
of my life? Do I really want the millions of years of evolution that it

had taken my genes to make it this far to die with me when I have had
opportunities to pass them on? Should I got ahead and marry Don even
though I am not in love with him so that I could try to have a baby
again? The doctor said a few years ago that I still had a few years
left to have a baby. Even though I had unexplainable infertility with
Charles, maybe I wouldn't have it with a new partner.

Isn't it time to forget about being the muse of a man like Beethoven
who Neutopia would inspired to write a symphony to my eternal love, or
Shelly who would write an epic poem from the breath of my immortal
soul... I wondered if these kind of men were still being produced by
Nature as I thought of all the American men huddled in front of the TV
set with their beer in hand waiting for the Superbowl to begin. The
thought of compromising and fitting myself in the humdrum life of
the status quo had no appeal to me. I had done that for the ten years
of my marriage and now that I knew that the American dream life style
is about why would I want to get myself involved with it again?

My vagina was so slippery and my mind was longing to be loved fully and
completely to create love child that would grow into a world without
war and poverty, a world where our gifts are used to the benefit of
all humanity. I had impulses to go over to the phone and called Don up.
But I just couldn't do it as if I was standing up against "Mother
Nature" herself. All my potential children flashed in my eyes as flash
floods of tears run down my cheeks for I knew I was giving up my
children for my dream of love. And that was all it was, just a dream,
an idea in my imagination that was not real in modern America. I got
this feeling that I was just beginning to know myself and that I would
live a happier life alone in my loneliness than to be trapped in a
house with a man who I couldn't communicate with accept by fighting.

I reflected on a time after Don and I had had sex. He got up after the
orgasm and started saying how engineers deserved to be paid more than
artists because they were more important to society. He insisted that
engineers work harder than an artist like me who stays home and writes
at their leisure. Could I learn to be submissive to Don so that we
could have a "happy" marriage? Could I learn to keep the house clean
and cook well enough to please him because I know that was one of his
requirements for keeping a woman. And what about his eyeing other
woman? Could I learn to tolerate his gazing lustfully at other women?
Could I tolerate his anti-abortion stand as he says that abortion in
wrong in all cases including rape, incest, and if the fetus is
deformed? But Don knew how to have sex and he knew how to give great
back rubs. In fact, that is how he first seduced me. I really needed a
back rub from working at the computer all day, and then, well, I gave
in when he kissed my ear with his tongue.

Now he says that he is going to marry me and I am going to have his
baby. Don doesn't like me working on the computer so much. One night he
said that he was going to throw it out the window. He had done other
violent things like that to me when I didn't please him. I knew if I
was to marry him, my life could be similar to life with Charles. So
could I live with another potential wife-beater? Don was really not
interested in being with a feminist activist because he thought the
system basically worked well and that environmental engineers like him
were cleaning up the mess and restoring the wet lands. Don thought that
I needed to change my attitude, be positive and optimistic about life
and forget about making profound political changes in the order of
things.

How could I do that to my future offspring? I couldn't bring them into
a world where they would be trapped to live in a household where the
parents didn't try to understand each other and work for a similar
vision of a Neu Age. I had to keep reminding myself when my clitoris
and breasts wanted desperately to be sucked that my mission is not that
of a mother, but of a crone, a wise woman who has the strength to
resist the seductions of the patriarchy.

The wet sensations would pass. The monthly bleeding would pass. The
desires of the flesh would pass. And on my death bed, the feeling of
loneliness, alienation, and loss of intimacy would pass. Or would they?

Oh Great Goddess, have them pass! I beg thee! Have mercy on me! Have
them pass! Extinction is far, far kinder than to live another lifetime
without love!


http://genesis.tiac.net/neutopia/
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:00:21 -0800
From: femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com
Message-Id: <199602231400.GAA28482@davinci.renaissoft.com
Subject: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #17
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
breastfeeding by male
archive send orb/index
Re: archive send orb/index
Archive requests
orb/index

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 15:21:35 +1100
From: hendriks@enternet.com.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: breastfeeding by male
Message-ID: <199602200421.PAA22675@bukula.enternet.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A professor here predicted males would be breastfeeding babies within
fifty years. This interesting story was in the Sunday papers. However!
the same prof` in an interview today said,with hormonal injections this
could be done,as of tomorrow. He went on to quote many P.O.W.s in Japanese
prison camps showed strong signs of lactation; also a local herd of male
goats had developed udders and were feeding their kids.

I would really love to perform this function,to have hormonal injections;
to grow breasts, to feed my Dommes babies-or whom-so-ever she wished me to, in
the happy knowledge i was acting as a surrogate mother, becoming feminized,
helping the mother retain Her beautiful shape, taking some of the burden.

In this interview, the interviewer asked if the injections would affect ie
diminish other male attributes.The answer wasn`t known, but! it was certain
the induced breasts would disappear after the hormonal [balance/imbalance]
was restored.

What does Goddess Lalaura think of that, among others?
rudy



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 04:05:14 -0500
From: Fortuna900@aol.com
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: archive send orb/index
Message-ID: <960222040511_228395226@emout09.mail.aol.com

archive send orb/index
end
-- Jim Fortuna
A woman's place is on a man's face! 3:-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:05:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Syed - Khalid
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: archive send orb/index
Message-Id: <199602221905.LAA00504@jobe.shell.portal.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 297

archive send orb/index

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:26:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Archive requests
Message-Id: <199602230426.UAA00373@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 406

Just a little reminder that archive requests should go to the
femsupremacy-request address, not the femsupremacy address.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:05:01 +0000
From: sky45
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: orb/index
Message-ID: <312CF69D.2BAF@primenet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

iagree please send

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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From: femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
Unidentified subject!
Literature

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 20:45:26 +0100
From: jaquet@dial.eunet.ch (lanoline)
To: femsuprem@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id: <199603071945.UAA09196@chsun.eunet.ch
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Mesdames, for your convenience, i humbly inform you of
the following parties held in France :

Parties organized by EQUALIZER :

SOUMISSION EXQUISES
Paris March 23
Equalizer : xx33-7236-3330
Tickets :
Concorde, 276 rue des Pyrenee 75020 Paris, tel. 4797-3374
Phylea, 61 rue Quincampoix 75004 Paris, tel. 4276-0180
Les Artistes, 23 Bd de Clichy 75018 Paris, tel. 4453-9461

SEX FETISH NIGHT!!
Lyon March 9
Equalizer : xx33-7236-3330
Tickets :
Cyborg Shop, 20 rue Temme, Lyon, tel. 7829-9974
Color Trip, 1 rue Constantine, Lyon, tel. 7830-4393

EQUALIZER CALANDAR

LYON PARIS

March 9 23
April 13 27
May 11
June 15 1 - 29
July 13 27


Humble Regards
Lanoline (petticoated secretary of the Gynarchy Club)
Property of Mistress Danielle

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:21:20 +0100
From: Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Literature
Message-Id: <199603110721.IAA11389@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear ladies
I am searching for literature about the ideas and visions of a womens
world, at the moment i just know fragments coming from mass-media like tv
and radio.But i want to go deeper in this theme but i do not know where to
start. Any books written by women about this idea?
I feel very good when thinking on female dominance but it is still a very
blurry image in my mind.
I do not exactly know what i am looking for but i am sure there are women
who think and write about this vision of a women ruled society.
Thank you for any tip.

Bernd Angerer
(Bernd.Angerer@atnet.co.at)

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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From: femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:
archive send */index
Re: Tidbit for ya
Re: breastfeeding by male

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 21:12:59 -0700
From: silver_hand@theriver.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: archive send */index
Message-Id: <199602250412.VAA21106@pantano.theriver.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

------------------------------------------------------------
|| Come ride The River ------- http://www.theriver.com/ ||
------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 22:27:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeremiah Thomas Dahle
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Tidbit for ya
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

unsubscribe please



_______________________________________________________________________________
Stupidity:

The only thing that ever consoles man for the stupid things he does
is the praise he always gives himself for doing them.

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900), Anglo-Irish playwright, author.

*
*Inspired from the dictionary game, Stevens Point, WI
*early morning 1/1/96
*

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:59:30 -0800
From: carl@www.tradewinds.com (carl)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: breastfeeding by male
Message-Id: <199602252059.MAA26373@www.tradewinds.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A professor here predicted males would be breastfeeding babies within
fifty years.
the same prof` in an interview today said,with hormonal injections this
could be done,as of tomorrow.


Well...i've heard of "petticoat punishement" . This is certainly a new angle

condition knows as gynocomastia develops. This is breast development in
males...as a result of a hormonal imbalance. From what I've heard, it often
requires surgery to correct.


Most interesting, of course,was the last lineof your letter..where you ask
what other dom women might think of this. Well...isn't THAT the whole crux
of the argument? I mean, just cause a man has a breast or foot or some other
kind of fetish, that's just fem dom B&D fetish stuff. I kinda thought that
fem Supremacy had a slightly different spin on it.

still...breastfeeding by male is an interesting concept i have not heard of
before.
let's hear what others have to say about it.
cheers
carl


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:
Tidbit for ya
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #14
Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture
Politic(ian)s
Re: Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture
archive-profiles
Re: Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:46:21 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin )
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Tidbit for ya
Message-Id: <199602122246.OAA25412@ix11.ix.netcom.com

FYI, thought you might want to take a look at this:


Phillip-Julian
Editor/Publisher, The Community Standard

The Unrestrained Pages - A "BDSM Hub Of The Net" Wannabe
Resources, News, Personals, Products, and Whatever Else We Can
Think Of
http://www.metronet.com/~julian/

--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:19:38 -0500
From: E1jones@aol.com
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #14
Message-ID: <960214011936_143774035@emout07.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-02-12 07:30:57 EST, you write:

At the same time, I'm still struggling with the question of whether this
translates into a political agenda.

Politicians Suck. I don't care what
gender/race/nationality/party/species/universe they come from. No American
politics, on the national level, are square. There is WAY too much money
involved, and money is everything. (It's where we live, who we know, where
we vacation, how much respect we get, what our children wear, where they go
to school, wheather we get good medical attention, etc.). I honestly don't
believe that there is a human on this Earth who has been here long enough to
meet the constitutional requirements for office that can resist the
corruption of office. Especially if they are good and honest enough to love
and respect themselves, theyre families, and the various causes they believe
in. You can just do way too much good with a little dough.

Just think about the lesser of 2 evils (one evil being whats wrong, the other
being what fills someones political agenda), and let me know what you think.
(I have the same trouble that you do about what fits my needs, and what is
right - I'm not sure of either!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 02:35:04 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture
Message-Id: <199602141035.CAA20319@netcom10.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 500

To all Ladies from this list, ever my 4th grade teachers

Roses cut from my garden, one for each of you, and lots of

CHOCOLATE!

and, if I may,

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[HUGS]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 02:30:07 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Politic(ian)s
Message-Id: <199602141030.CAA20156@netcom10.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2119

E1jones@aol.com wrote:

Politicians Suck. I don't care what
gender/race/nationality/party/species/universe they come from.

This isn't a flame, or even a rebuttal, but it seems that the
race/nationality/party/species/universe they come from is

=us=

They reflect both our worst instincts and best hopes, and
didn't just parachute in from Mars. =We= put them there. We
voted for them. We can't blame money for our not taking the
trouble to be informed or in some cases even to vote. The enemy
is in the mirror. Once we, each one of us, takes =personal=
responsibility for the quality of public life, really works at
it, then we have a handle on the problem. =Our= problem, not
'theirs.' There is no 'they,' except for professional victims.
Democracy is not a spectator sport. Consider the alternatives.

(For a good practical example of folks taking responsibility,
see all the activity in Usenet and on the lists regarding the
new US communications law. People are, uh, acting up. ;] )

Now, if anyone wants to say =politics= sucks, I'll drink to that.
Been there, done that, and am still gagging.

(All of the above applies to any democracy, by the way, not
simply the US. Very much in the world public domain.)

I honestly don't
believe that there is a human on this Earth who has been here long enough to
meet the constitutional requirements for office that can resist the
corruption of office.

Well, perhaps so, but I would be willing to bet that over the
next 50 years, women elected to office do better at it than men.
Are women more honest? I don't know, but I believe (personal
observation) women in general have different compasses than men,
and are less subject to the temptations of the public trough.

(And I hope have a better command of metaphors on Wednesdays.)

Shalom
c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:17:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Blake and/or Marla
To: Coyote Sings
cc: Female Supremacy List
Subject: Re: Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

To all Ladies from this list, ever my 4th grade teachers

Roses cut from my garden, one for each of you, and lots of

CHOCOLATE!

and, if I may,

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[HUGS]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

c.s.

Well cs, Thank you so much for the lovely flower achocolate and hugs. A
token of esteem is never out of place. Gallantry is an important
character trait that I look for in my pets, slaves and lovers

Milady
Don't Sweat the Small Stuff |this is like our closet
A Renaissance Woman born in the wrong century |She gets that much space
Live, Laugh and Love |I get this much space
==================guilty pleasures tv+travel+chocolate=====================
**********Not a morning person; doesn't even begin to cover it**************












the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:00:54 +0000
From: sky45
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: archive-profiles
Message-ID: <31224D86.1B65@primenet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

archive-profiles

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:55:41 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin )
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture
Message-Id: <199602150255.SAA25842@ix5.ix.netcom.com

::: :::
::::: :::::
::::::: ::::::
::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::
====:::::::::::::===
::::::::::::
::::::::::
::::::::
::::::
::::
::
--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:
Re: Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture
Re: Politic(ian)s
Re: Politic(ian)s
Re: Politic(ian)s
WHAT ever! :)
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #15
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #15
Closeted/uncloseted? (Was: Re: Intelligence - sexual deviance)
Re: Politic(ian)s
EQUALIZER FEBRUARY PARTIES
Re: Politic(ian)s
breastfeeding by male

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 18:39:00 +0200
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Blatant outdated patriarchal gesture
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

15 Feb 96 01:17, Blake and/or Marla wrote to All:

BM A token of esteem is never out of place. Gallantry is an important
BM character trait that I look for in my pets, slaves and lovers

Isn't it ironic though that a special day has to be allocated for this
purpose. It takes away the personal responsibility of the person giving away
gifts, since they can never go wrong with this on Valentine's day, but I
wonder: Wouldn't it be more appreciated, if it was the idea and initiative of
the person giving and not something that is suggested by the calendar?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Everybody knows, that the
|Drottninggatan 4A | Internet: mt@jetset.ct.se | best nuts come from
|212 11 Malmˆ | Tel.: +46-40-183667 | California.
|Sweden | Cell.: +46-708-576283 | -Sunkist
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 18:34:00 +0200
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Politic(ian)s
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

14 Feb 96 12:30, Coyote Sings wrote to all:

CS E1jones@aol.com wrote:

Politicians Suck. I don't care what
gender/race/nationality/party/species/universe they come from.

CS This isn't a flame, or even a rebuttal, but it seems that the
CS race/nationality/party/species/universe they come from is

CS =us=

CS They reflect both our worst instincts and best hopes, and

The inherent weakness in the system is that humans are generally weak, and
are almost without exception corrupted by power. I'm not saying this is the
fault of the politicians. This is just a fact of life. After a time in an
office of power, they seem to become blind to the needs and wants of their
employers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Everybody knows, that the
|Drottninggatan 4A | Internet: mt@jetset.ct.se | best nuts come from
|212 11 Malmˆ | Tel.: +46-40-183667 | California.
|Sweden | Cell.: +46-708-576283 | -Sunkist
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

... Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 04:17:18 +0000
From: Andy Dowland
To: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Politic(ian)s
Message-Id: <312556CE.29E7@students.stir.ac.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Magnus Thelander wrote:

14 Feb 96 12:30, Coyote Sings wrote to all:

CS E1jones@aol.com wrote:

Politicians Suck. I don't care what
gender/race/nationality/party/species/universe they come from.

CS This isn't a flame, or even a rebuttal, but it seems that the
CS race/nationality/party/species/universe they come from is

CS =us=

CS They reflect both our worst instincts and best hopes, and

The inherent weakness in the system is that humans are generally weak, and
are almost without exception corrupted by power. I'm not saying this is the
fault of the politicians. This is just a fact of life. After a time in an
office of power, they seem to become blind to the needs and wants of their
employers.

I understand where you are both coming from Magnus and Coyote, the fact
is that politicians are normal people (I hope so at least, I am an
activist in the Labour Party here). But there are people that go into
politics as a career and they are the most likely to be corrupted. The
common view that politicans 'suck' just makes it easier for them because
it lowers the public's perception of them. Imagine, just for a moment,
that you have some opportunity to be corrupt - if everyone _expects_ you
to be corrupt then you are going to be more likely to do it because
everyone thinks you are anyway.

I guess that what I'm saying is "If you're not part of the solution,
you're part of the problem." This world is full of people who moan but
will not change. Join a political movement or a campaigning group you
identify with. In the context of this mailing list try to support female
candidates to stand for elections (I am proud to have voted for an
all-woman shortlist for our general election candidate). Politics is far
too important to leave solely to careerists.

Andy (offical delurk)

email: amdd01@students.stir.ac.uk IRC: AndySaint

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:09:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Politic(ian)s
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Andy,

Welcome to the Group! All intelligent discussion is appreciated here.

Peace,

barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:19:25 -0800
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: WHAT ever! :)
Message-Id: <199602170519.VAA16119@ix2.ix.netcom.com

Hey, read this, it'll kill some time... :)

From: Lynne_Tapper@colpal.com
Newsgroups: rec.humor
Subject: How to win arguments

*Step one (1): HOW TO WIN ANY ARGUMENT*

I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win an
argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and
steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect,
they don't even invite me. You too can win arguments. Simply follow
these rules:

* Drink Liquor. (Mescal, JD, or Vodka preferred)

Suppose you're at a party and some hotshot intellectual is expounding
on the economy of Peru, a subject you know nothing about. If you're
drinking some health-fanatic drink like grapefruit juice, you'll hang
back, afraid to display your ignorance, while the hotshot enthralls
your date. But if you drink several large shots of Jack Daniels,
you'll discover you have STRONG VIEWS about the Peruvian economy.
You'll be a WEALTH of information. You'll argue forcefully, offering
searing insights and possibly upsetting furniture. People will be
impressed. Some may leave the room.

* Make things up.

Suppose, in the Peruvian economy argument, you are trying to prove that
Peruvians are underpaid, a position you base solely on the fact that
YOU are underpaid, and you're damned if you're going to let a bunch of
Peruvians be better off. DON'T say: "I think Peruvians are underpaid."
Say: "The average Peruvian's salary in 1981 dollars adjusted for the
revised tax base is $1,452.81 per annum, which is $836.07 before the
mean gross poverty level."

NOTE: Always make up exact figures.

If an opponent asks you where you got your information, make THAT up,
too. Say: "This information comes from Dr. Hovel T. Moon's study for
the Buford Commission published May 9, 1982. Didn't you read it?" Say
this in the same tone of voice you would use to say "You left your
soiled underwear in my bathhouse."

* Use meaningless but weighty-sounding words and phrases.

Memorize this list:

Let me put it this way
In terms of
Vis-a-vis
Per se
As it were
Qua
So to speak
well, any-who

You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as "Q.E.D.,"
"e.g.," and "i.e." These are all short for "I speak Latin, and you do
not."

Here's how to use these words and phrases. Suppose you want to say:

"Peruvians would like to order appetizers more often, but they don't
have enough money."

You never win arguments talking like that. But you WILL win if you
say: "Let me put it this way. In terms of appetizers vis-a-vis
Peruvians qua Peruvians, they would like to order them more often, so
to speak, but they do not have enough money per se, as it were.
Q.E.D."

Only a fool would challenge that statement.

* Use snappy and irrelevant comebacks.

You need an arsenal of all-purpose irrelevant phrases to fire back at
your opponents when they make valid points. The best are:

You're begging the question.
You're being defensive.
Don't compare apples and oranges.
What are your parameters?

This last one is especially valuable. Nobody, other than
mathematicians, has the
vaguest idea what "parameters" means.

Here's how to use your comebacks:

You say As Abraham Lincoln said in 1873... Your opponent says
Lincoln died in 1865.
You say You're begging the question.

OR

You say Liberians, like most Asians... Your opponent says Liberia
is in Africa.
You say You're being defensive.


* Compare your opponent to Adolf Hitler.

This is your heavy artillery, for when your opponent is obviously right
and you are spectacularly wrong. Bring Hitler up subtly. Say: "That
sounds suspiciously like something Adolf Hitler might say" or "You
certainly do remind me of Adolf Hitler."

You now know how to out-argue anybody. :)





--
Laura Goodwin

"The wealth of the soul is the only true wealth"
(Lucian)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 02:23:37 -0500
From: E1jones@aol.com
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #15
Message-ID: <960217022335_424760547@emout08.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-02-16 08:58:46 EST, you write:

=We= put them there. We
voted for them. We can't blame money for our not taking the
trouble to be informed or in some cases even to vote. The enemy
is in the mirror. Once we, each one of us, takes =personal=
responsibility for the quality of public life, really works at
it, then we have a handle on the problem. =Our= problem, not
'theirs.' There is no 'they,' except for professional victims.
Democracy is not a spectator sport.

I tend to agree with what Coyote Sings has to say, I'd almost consider C.S.
something like a mentor, but, I disagree with this.

Last election I was involved in, I had the STRICT choices of Bill, Deamon
Devil-Boy, and Ears. They all sucked! It doesn't matter what I did, or who
I voted for, we still had a choice of 3 very wealthy professional politicians
who couldn't care less about what's right or wrong for the country, and only
cared about the next election and if they got a favorable vote-of-confidance
from THEIR party. (With the possible exception of Ears, who didn't stand a
chance, anyhow, and may not have had a clue!).

Hitler said (and I don't like to quote the man in a positive light on a
regular basis, but he may have been right) that all democracy does is hide
the elected ruler from blame. He can blame it on the Party. The party can
blame it on the Electorial Congress. They can blame it on the pollsters.
They can blame ti on the media. They can blame it on . . . (etc.)

So, whose fault is it that the President of the United States has been a liar
for at least a decade? Is it mine? Hell no! I didn't vote for him!

I have to say that it's "their" fault. The people who believe what they see
on the T.V. without ever thinking about anything. That's not me. I am
innocent.

If I missed something, and I usually do, please let me know. I just can not
accept responsibility for the general public's faults. I can only accept
responsibility for my own faults, and I think that I'm ahead of the game for
that!

Peace, Love and Harmony,

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 02:28:56 -0500
From: E1jones@aol.com
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #15
Message-ID: <960217022855_424762273@mail02.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-02-16 08:58:46 EST, you write:

Now, if anyone wants to say =politics= sucks, I'll drink to that.
Been there, done that, and am still gagging.



Si, Sinor~ !Yo mucho' compriendo, amigo! Uno cervesa, por favor.

(That's Florida for "Yes sir. I very much agree, my friend! I would also
like to drink to that, if you would please".)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 07:34:00 +0200
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Closeted/uncloseted? (Was: Re: Intelligence - sexual deviance)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

06 Jan 96 21:33, Laura Goodwin wrote to all:

LG Kinky people who come out of the closet* _are_ smarter in general than

Where do you draw the line between being out and being closeted?

Magnus

... If speed kills, Win95 users will live forever!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 08:31:00 +0200
From: magnus.thelander@jetset.ct.se (Magnus Thelander)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Politic(ian)s
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

17 Feb 96 06:17, Andy Dowland wrote to:

AD will not change. Join a political movement or a campaigning group you
AD identify with. In the context of this mailing list try to support

I haven't found one. They all want to invade my privacy and take away my
liberties and freedom of speech to a lesser or greater degree. They are all too
eager to forbid and control. If they didn't have this desire to control they
lifes and doings of others, why would they become a politician? After all,
that's what politics are about to a large extent.

I should start my own movement.

Magnus

... Proof of sanity forged upon request.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:17:50 +0100
From: jaquet@dial.eunet.ch (lanoline)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: EQUALIZER FEBRUARY PARTIES
Message-Id: <199602172317.AAA03662@chsun.eunet.ch
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Mesdames, for your convenience, i dare inform you of
the following parties held in France :


There will be two parties organized by EQUALIZER :

SOUMISSION EXQUISES
Paris Feb 24
Equalizer : xx331-7236-3330
Tickets :
Concorde, 276 rue des Pyrenee 75020 Paris, tel. 4797-3374
Phylea, 61 rue Quincampoix 75004 Paris, tel. 4276-0180
Les Artistes, 23 Bd de Clichy 75018 Paris, tel. 4453-9461

SEX FETISH NIGHT!!
Lyon Feb 17
Equalizer : xx331-7236-3330
Tickets :
Cyborg Shop, 20 rue Temme, Lyon, tel. 7829-9974
Color Trip, 1 rue Constantine, Lyon, tel. 7830-4393

Humble Regards
Lanoline

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:26:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Politic(ian)s
Message-Id: <199602190726.XAA00633@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2404

Coyote Sings wrote:

They reflect both our worst instincts and best hopes, and
didn't just parachute in from Mars. =We= put them there. We
voted for them. We can't blame money for our not taking the
trouble to be informed or in some cases even to vote. The enemy
is in the mirror. Once we, each one of us, takes =personal=
responsibility for the quality of public life, really works at
it, then we have a handle on the problem. =Our= problem, not
'theirs.' There is no 'they,' except for professional victims.
Democracy is not a spectator sport. Consider the alternatives.

Agreed. Those who don't vote have no right to complain about the
people in office. This is, unless you go in and express your disgust
over the lack of decent candidates by officially abstaining. If you
truly feel there are no decent candidates, this is a way to _register_
that you really didn't want to vote for anyone there. Or, write
someone in if that's possible. I have seen small elections turned
upside down by a good write in campaign.

If you feel a candidate is full of it, take them to task on it. Write
them letters. Find what call-in shows they're going to be on and call
them so you can ask your questions for the whole audience to hear. If
you find one particular candidate overly frightening, do everything
you can to at the least make sure another candidate wins. Do
something at least! Sitting around saying, "All of the candidates
suck" and not bothering to vote doesn't do you any good.

(For a good practical example of folks taking responsibility,
see all the activity in Usenet and on the lists regarding the
new US communications law. People are, uh, acting up. ;] )

Indeed they are. There are active campaigns to show just how much
they can't enforce these laws. Problem is, if enough people had
gotten off their butts and complained to their representatives
_before_ the CDA was passed, maybe this wouldn't be necessary.

Now, if anyone wants to say =politics= sucks, I'll drink to that.
Been there, done that, and am still gagging.

Agreed. :)

[some cut]

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:48:02 +1100
From: hendriks@enternet.com.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: breastfeeding by male
Message-ID: <199602200148.MAA20173@bukula.enternet.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A professor here predicted males would be breastfeeding babies within
fifty years. This interesting story was in the Sunday papers. However!
the same prof` in an interview today said,with hormonal injections this
could be done,as of tomorrow. He went on to quote many P.O.W.s in Japanese
prison camps showed strong signs of lactation; also a local herd of male
goats had developed udders and were feeding their kids.

I would really love to perform this function,to have hormonal injections;
to grow breasts, to feed my Dommes babies-or whom-so-ever she wished me to, in
the happy knowledge i was acting as a surrogate mother, becoming feminized,
helping the mother retain Her beautiful shape, taking some of the burden.

In this interview, the interviewer asked if the injections would affect ie
diminish other male attributes.The answer wasn`t known, but! it was certain
the induced breasts would disappear after the hormonal [balance/imbalance]
was restored.

What does Goddess Lalaura think of that, among others?
rudy



the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:
Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Re: Hello
About Hello
Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Re: Hello
Re: About Hello
Re: Hello
Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:08:32 +0100
From: Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Message-Id: <199603301408.PAA02016@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Laura Goodwin wrote:

Men or women who are brutal and anti-social would need proper restaints
put upon their actions, and certainly no civilization can remain
peaceful without a well-regulated justice system. I'd like to know
what others on the list think are proper remedies for dealing with the
violent individuals in a humane society.


Perhaps our European friends could give us a perspective from their more
humane and much less violent societies. Not that they're perfect, but I
do believe that they're farther down the road than America in these
respects.


Dont forget that we had two worldwars in europe and the last thing in
bosnia just stopped a few weeks ago. People are shocked from what is
possible and still stand somehow under the impression of a few million
killed humans. Europe seems to be peacefull but that is just since 50
years. European history is a history of massacres, wars and violences
against women, jews, christians , africans and so on..
But beside that huge violents europe seems to be *peacefull* because its
economic structure at the moment is working, and we do have a much better
social, educational system than the usa.We nearly have no analphabets for
example. People generally feel more secure and we do not have that much
weapons at home like american people do, and that is an important point for
me. I have never lived in the states or in any country where every second
(?)one owns a gun, but for me a weapon is a symbol of violence. Its a
machine with only one sense: to kill, to hurt.
And IMHO: If people are permanently surrounded by symbols of pain, killing
and so on they will get used to it and they will learn that it might be
normal to use violence to solve problems, extremly said.
Europe is, generally seen, an old elephant, who has seen so much pain and
destruction, but that dosnt mean so much. If people get homeless or loose
their work the potential of violence dramatically increases within months.
I was somehow shocked when visiting LA last year when seeing that much
homeless people.

Okay, I'll start it off. Isolation. I think punishment only lowers
ourselves to the level of the criminal, but some people simply need to be
kept away from the nonviolent populace. Treatment and therapy whenever
possible and effective. Strong and constant reminders that the rest of
us will not tolerate violent behavior.

Well said. I prefere the idea of therapy or social service whenever
possible instead of punishment as you said.
To add a point. Precaution.
Society should keep the support of military development at a minimum and
spend that energy and money into social, civil-economic structures and the
educational system, like schools, health care and arts of course.
We also need more women in government, not only in top management positions
but also in arts and sciences to find solutions for our problems. Too many
decisions are made by only men and their understanding, and womens points
of view are definitly missing in most of our visions about future, society
, religion and economics.
Even in a femdom world violence will happen but the reaction on that
will maybe a different one.
Generally i believe that a womens society will be a more balanced one.
There will be still murderers, rapers and violence against children and
there will be still the need to put people away from society but there may
be less of that all happening.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:08:35 +0100
From: Bernd.Angerer@atnet.at
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-Id: <199603301408.PAA02019@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Dennis
welcome
Thank you for that mail. It inspired me to a few thoughts. What you say
about politicans meets nearly my understanding about power and politic.
Since i wasnt able to live through thatcher s area in england she always
was an enemy for me. She was a woman but she played a man s role in a
totally men oriented and dominated environment and political
structure,didnt she?
As far as my understanding about a women dominated world goes it would be a
basically different society.
When thinking about femdom i have to think about the fundaments of our
society like this (for me) strange vision about a masculine god and the
fact that most of our economics are based on military structures.
Of course vary womens qualities and just to see a women as the president of
a state does not necessarily mean that this is now a women oriented or
dominated state.
And to your second point. I am sure a non-masochist man will have his place
in a women dominated world. And i have to say that it took a while until i
understood this image of this whipping, punishing misstress as a metapher
and not so much as a real desire to be beaten. I always had this strong
feeling to dominant women but i never had this wish to be victim of real
violence.
Real submission to a woman is a great enjoyment which i happily relish with
my girlfriend. And we dont hurt us.
Oh my goddness, how i love her 8-))
I also see this list as a place for serious discussion and exchangement
of ideas and hope to read more thoughts from you all out there .




Hello to all friends of the Newsgroup

I am a UK male close to reaching his 50th year, and one who has (after a
few
months enjoying the views of the Group members) decided to come out of
the
'lurking' closet and express a couple of personal thoughts :

1. Whilst I embrace (with all my heart) the concept of a female
dominated
society, the unfortunate facts are that the individual qualities of women
vary
to the same extent as in the male species. I am not convinced that the
world
would not be eventually run by the female equivalent of the self serving
male
politicians we suffer today. I have lived through the Thatcher Era, and
although admiring some of her actions, she still started a war in the
Falklands
for her own political ends. Just recently, an Aristocratic lady member
of
our
Conservative political party moved, at a Party Strategy meeting, to
re-house
hundreds of homeless people into a asbestos condemned tower block in
order
to
take them out of a marginal Conservative borough into a safe
opposition
borough, thus removing them as a voting threat. I fear that whether the
world
is run by women or men, it may remain the same, scum will float to the
top
and
suffocate the ideals of all the decent people below.
2. Is there a place for the non masochist in the Female Dominated
Society
??
Although I dip into JWs Femdom group (and admire him for the courtesy
he
reflects in his e-mail responses), I do find the content somewhat biased
towards
the slave desperately looking for a Mistress, with the hope of
eating
all
sorts of things, and generally being totally abused. Whilst I admire the
true
masochist who suffers for his Mistress pleasure, and equally admire the
Mistress who enjoys administering the suffering, many of these slaves
seem
to
desire self gratification rather than the need to please. During my life
I
have
had the pleasure of serving two Mistresses, and at no time during these
relationships have I received any form of corporal punishment. All that I
have
ever found necessary was a look, a word or a stern dressing down,
any
of
which would be enough to ensure my total attention. It is a paradox in my
life
that I dislike bossy women (I left my first wife purely because of that
very
reason), yet I have been extremely happy to obey the two dominant women
I
have
met. To me, truly dominant women enjoy the intellectual and sensual
nuances of
their power, whereas the bossy woman has no real insight. May I also
add
that I met both of the dominant women through normal everyday life (so
dont
give up chaps!!), and I believe that there are thousands of ordinary
women
in
this world who are just waiting for the right male to empower her. I
believe
that there are many intelligent women (with a dormant desire to
dominate)
who
are happy to respond to a discrete and friendly approach. I count myself
among a
chosen few males (and this group contains a lot of them) who truly like
and
adore women, and find no stigma attached to worshipping the right ones.

I apologise for the length of this missive, but I genuinely feel that
this
group
stands for real discussion , rather than cheap thrills. I will finish
now,
and carry on reading The Gothic tower, Sebastion has just received his
200
lashes OUCH !!

Lastly, I would like to say how much I admire Ms Laura Goodwin, whos
energy
keeps this group alive. I hope her dreams become a reality.

Dennis

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 18:31 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Please give me exact details of the surveys to which you refer.
The surveying organization, the demographics of the polled population,
the sort of questions asked and the dates of the surveys would be
appreciated.

Sincere thanks,

Barry


I can do much better then that. Just read "Who stole feminism, Ho women
have betrayed women" By Christina Hoff Sommers. In this book Ms. Sommers
gives examples of some of the "Myths" that have been circulated and widely
accepted as truth by "Womens organizations". Then she explodes those myths
by finding out the truth behind them and publishing it. Granted she is
considered by feminists as a Backlasher; but that does dispell the truth of
what she is saying. In order to prove her wrong (which apparently quite a
few feminists have tried to do) you would have to look at the same data that
she did or ask the same questions that she did and find out what was really
said or done or what the real results were. Not only that, but after doing
all the things that she did you would have had to find out that she
blatently lied. When someone says "100,000 women a day or week or month or
even year are being beaten by their spouses in the US" and you believe it
without question; Then someone comes along and says "Funny, my statistics
say that less than 100 are being beaten." All of a sudden you want proof.
Why do you believe one and not the other? Could it be because you have been
trained to believe the stories about all the bad things that happen to
women? What about the truth. Well you might say, "Which is truth?" Lets
find out.

Where did the information come from that stated 100,000 women were being
beaten? Ms. Sommers found out, and it all started from someone
missunderstanding what someone else said.

So there it is someone says something like "We check 100,000 women a
day/week/month/year for spouse abuse." and all of a sudden that's how many
women are actually being abused. Does CHECKING for abuse mean that the
abuse happened? Does it mean your speeding because a cop uses a radar gun
to CHECK your speed?

You might also read "The morning after" by Katie Roiphe. Or maybe one of
the books by Camillia Paglia (dont' mind the spelling). They also give
insights into the "woman as victim" mystique.

Please see next post by me.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 18:52 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: About Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All of what I wrote under the subject of "Hello" is of course beside the
point. I am interested in something far more important then half truths and
missrepresented data.

I have read both the Gothic Tower and Hores Woman. The Gothic Tower had a
good story but the writing was terrible. The story was hard to follow and
was disjointed in many places. Granted the author was not Mark Twain or
Issac Asimov but still I have seen better writing from amatures before. I
found no fault with the store line and the subject matter didn't bother me a
bit. I think the story has A LOT of potential and really wish the author
would sit down and rewrite it. It was easy to see that the author was from
a European country but I could not tell which. Something may have been lost
in the translation. If the author wrote the story as a first attempt in
English with English syntax then I applaud the author and hope s/he
continues to write more. You have a very inspired mind and your writing can
get better.

The Horse Woman was a much better writen story and I'd like to see what will
happen next. The writer was colorful and there was a lot of imaginative
things happening in the story. Very Good. Please finish it.

However, I would like to know one thing, and I would like to hear it from
the women who have read these stories. Why is it that in order for women to
be superior, men have to be something less then cattle? If men treated
women in the real world the way the women treated men in these stories they
would gain the title of the most barbaric bastards in the world. So why is
it different for women? Why is it socially acceptable for women to treat
men as slaves, whipping boys, playthings, cattle, etc. and barbaric for men
to treat women this way? Not only that, but women (at least in the US,
Canada, and most European nations) are not treated even close to the way the
men were treated in these stories. Granted, some men do treat some (or all
women) like this but society as a whole and most men DON'T DO THIS to women.

Why do women feel that things would be so much better "a kinder, gentler
world" if they ran things and then write stories like these? Do women think
this is a kinder gentler way? Is it only a kinder gentler way when women are
in control and men don't even count?

I would really appreciate honest answeres. No flames; they will be ignored.
Give me your honest opinions and don't try to spout facts that are not yet
in evidence such as "Women are more feeling then men" You don't have any
proof of this. Just tell me why the worlds discribed in these stories is
what you believe to be a perfect world. I will accept anything you give me
as YOUR truth.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 19:07 MST
From: kilroy@rmii.com (Mark Bedell)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dealing with abusers in a femdom world
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I assume you are prepared to back this up with unassailable cites?
Also, there is the question of degree...a mother who spanks a naughty
child, vs. a serial murderer, for example.

I mentioned a source in an earlier post.
Your right there isn't much of a comparison between a mother who spanks a
child and a man who is a serial killer. But what about the mother who
spanks a child and the father who spanks a child? The mother (by sociatl
standards) simply spanks the child. The father is beating the child!! Why
is that? Why is it a mother can do things to her little boy that a father
would be jailed for doing to his little girl?

It's true some women are abusive and criminal, and such women would not
be given free rein in a femdom society, but, heaven willing, would
recieve proper justice they way a criminal should. The difference is
men who behaved in a criminal fashion would certainly come to justice,
even if their victims were women.

No argument here; if you mean that men are not being punished because the
victim was a woman. That kind of thinking is NOT right. But women who kill
their husbands when he's sleeping by setting his pajama's on fire and then
calling it self defense...well...that's something all together different.

I believe this thinking is largely due to the fact that the average
man is bigger and stronger then the average woman. Always has been
probably always will be.

By that logic, horses should dominate us, because they are bigger than
us.

Come on! Let's stay in the real world. I'm not going to get into an argument
with you about size being the only thing that's important or the dinosaurs
would still be here.

Well, of course. Women want the same thing. Until fairly recently we
were actually advised to submit quietly to abuse, and to consider rape
a fact of life, and to take lower wages and sexual harrassment on the
job as occupational hazards, and in short, to accept second-class
citizenship without question or complaint. In a femdom world, this
would be regarded as a quaint and insane folly of the past.

--
Laura Goodwin

Would the same thing apply to how men are treated? Would wages be equal?
Would sexual harrassment no longer exist? Would second class citizenship go
away for both men and women? Or would things just get turned around so that
men were now in the position that women have been in?

Serious question. Please give serious response. There is no flame intended
in this post. And Laura, Can I use you as a character in my book? PLEASE????

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 21:49:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 30 Mar 1996, Mark Bedell wrote:


Please give me exact details of the surveys to which you refer.
The surveying organization, the demographics of the polled population,
the sort of questions asked and the dates of the surveys would be
appreciated.

I can do much better then that.

Then please do so. I asked for factual references and you gave
me propaganda tracts.

Sincerely,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 22:13:39 -0800 (PST)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: About Hello
Message-Id: <199603310613.WAA02798@netcom18.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2703

Mark Bedell wrote:

I would really appreciate honest answeres. No flames; they will be ignored.
Give me your honest opinions and don't try to spout facts that are not yet
in evidence such as "Women are more feeling then men" You don't have any
proof of this. Just tell me why the worlds discribed in these stories is
what you believe to be a perfect world. I will accept anything you give me
as YOUR truth.


I'm not sure which is being asked for here: 'facts,' or
'honest opinions.'

My bedrock assertion for most of the last 18 months in this
forum has been to the effect that "I can trust women more than I
can trust men."

Now, this is clearly nothing more than my subjective opinion,
tarted up occasionally by the 'sophistry' that troubles some
here. None of my opinions are backed by (scientifically) measured,
observed 'facts.'

Yet somehow I manage to base many if not most of my major life
decisions on my trust of most women most of the time, or upon
values that I associate with women, and most of the time over
the nearly 11 years I've been actively doing this, it works.
In a usage that I associate with 'male' thinking, I win.

This works for me in almost any venue I choose to enter: business and
creative life, friendships, politics, religion, erotic expression,
play: all the endeavors of life. Further, by honoring not only
what I perceive as womanly values in both public and private life,
I seem better integrate all of my different life roles, and do not,
as many men seem to do, isolate them all in separate boxes.
A third payoff seems to be the discovery of my 'feminine' self: now
I can partake of all of me, not simply the _machote_ half. :]

But,

because I have not been logical, linear, left-brained and 'factual'
in my thinking, because I have relied more upon experience, chaos
and intuition in my thinking, am I wrong? Are none the above gains
in my life, unfounded as they are on 'fact,' _correct_?

All I'm trying to say here is that perhaps we need to widen
the 'rules of evidence' to include whatever works, however untidy
it might appear. And what works for me is to trust most that which
is ultimately silly, chaotic and mysterious, right here in River City.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 00:51:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To:
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hello
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, wrote:

It often seems to me that women find natural science offensive. Yes, it has
given us many terrifying and destructive things like nuclear arms, chemical and
biological weapons, but where would e.g. medicine be today without it? I'd be
interested to know, how the women here feel about it, and if you do find it
dispicable, what is your alternative? Perhaps I'm just confusing the
disappointment some women feel with some of the uses natural science has been
put to with their opinion of natural science in general?

I have no problem with science. Did well with it in school. I have a
problem with some of the people who use the tool that is science for
things like biological weapons, and don't bother to use the tool that is
science to make sure that they clean up their mess when they're done.
So, I guess I fall into the "disappointment" group.

I think folks forget sometimes that science is a tool. Some of the
scientists that use it do wonderful things. Some are skunks.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 00:33:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts Of An Older Male
Message-Id: <199603310833.AAA02113@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Dennis O'Hara wrote:

[parts I'm not referring to deleted to cut down on bandwidth abuse :)]

1. Whilst I embrace (with all my heart) the concept of a female dominated
society, the unfortunate facts are that the individual qualities of women vary
to the same extent as in the male species. I am not convinced that the world
would not be eventually run by the female equivalent of the self serving male
politicians we suffer today. [some examples deleted to save space] I fear that whether the world
is run by women or men, it may remain the same, scum will float to the top and
suffocate the ideals of all the decent people below.

Well, part of the problem is that the current political system is set
up so that you must "play the game" in a certain way to get anywhere.
The people who manage to wade through this morass are more often than
not people who don't really have our best interests at heart. And the
problem is that the voting public contributes to this. Politicians
aren't allowed to have faults. They're not allowed to have opinions.
The only way they can survive is to be perfect, and put forth as few
of their thoughts as possible until they're in power, and then they go
gung-ho on their real agenda until election time comes around, then
they do a few things they feel the majority will like.

If people bothered to actually require candidates to say what they
stood for up front, and didn't slash down every single one of them for
daring to take a stance, then we might be able to get and keep some
honest folks in power. But, instead, the few honest folks who manage
to get in there get eaten alive by the sharks. These kinds of things
are independent on the gender of the politicians in question.

2. Is there a place for the non masochist in the Female Dominated Society ??
Although I dip into JWs Femdom group (and admire him for the courtesy he
reflects in his e-mail responses), I do find the content somewhat biased towards
the slave desperately looking for a Mistress, with the hope of eating all
sorts of things, and generally being totally abused.

As far as alt.sex.femdom goes, most of the stories there seem to be
posted by male subs with no real life BDSM experience. They imagine
this wonderful relationship with this independently wealthy dominant
woman who will trap him in her house, force him to do things for her
(without doing any real work), force him to perform sexual acts for
her, and generally spend all of her time watching over him and keeping
him happily aroused and subby feeling. This woman, of course, never
has anything else to attend to (except perhaps take him shopping for
kinky things) or any other slaves, so he has her all to himself all of
the time.

The folks who write up these sorts of fantasies end up awfully
surprised when they see the reality, a woman who often has to work so
isn't home at least 8 hrs a day, who may even require him to work.
And, oh my, when she tells him to go clean, she really wants him to
_clean_ the house! :) So, if some of the stuff you see posted
doesn't make any sense to you, keep in mind that it may just be
fantasy material with no basis in reality.

Whilst I admire the true
masochist who suffers for his Mistress pleasure, and equally admire the
Mistress who enjoys administering the suffering, many of these slaves seem to
desire self gratification rather than the need to please. During my life I have
had the pleasure of serving two Mistresses, and at no time during these
relationships have I received any form of corporal punishment.

Well, if someone likes pain, I'm not going to generally use pain as a
punishment for them. Or, I'm going to give them more pain then they
bargained for. If someone doesn't like pain, I may use pain as a
punishment. But, it's not going to be fun for them. And it's not
really fun for me either, as I generally care about those I own, and
so am not really itching for them to do things I feel warrant that kin
dof punishment. However, yes, there are certainly forms of punishment
that have nothing to do with pain.

[the rest deleted, as I'm not referring to it]

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 66

Today's Topics:
Re: Raising children in our world
Re: Mothers Day and Music
Re: Raising children in our world
Re: Raising children in our world
Re: Raising children in our world
Re: Raising children in our world
Check my pages!
Re: Raising children in our world
Re: Check my pages!
For the record
Re: For the record
Today's Quote...
What's cool about men: one example
Revenge! (Was: Re: What's cool about men: one example)
Re: What's cool about men: one example
unwanted mail
Re: What's cool about men: one example

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:18:33 -0700
From: jet@nwlink.com (Jet)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Raising children in our world
Message-Id: <199605101818.LAA25133@montana.nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dee-Ann

I never dated until college.

My first official date was when I was in college, too. 19 years old,
a late bloomer is what everyone called me in my family. Actually,
a lot happened that year...first love, first sex, experimentation
with both genders... It was an interesting year and if I could keep
my daughter from dating until she was 19, I'd do it, but she is who
she is and will probably go after things differently than I did.

But there were guys in high school who
would drop by out of the blue. I remember a male friend in college
who once said to me that the reason guys didn't ask me out is I put
off a "Taken" field. I asked what that meant, and he replied that
something about the way I carried myself said, "I don't need you."

That was an interesting thing for him to say. Being self-sufficient is
hardly means being "Taken" though. I will bet that more men under-
stand that now.

One thing I've learned over the years is that men have a need to feel needed.
However, men like to help physically, where women help emotionally. If you
ask someone to help you once in a while, usually they are very happy to help.
In reality, that's the key of being friends with anyone. If you need help,
whether emotionally or physically, a friend will help...it keeps a feeling of
'family' and closeness to the friendship, and helps that friendship to grow..
I
think that's when I realised I needed to start asking men out instead
of waiting for them to ask me. ;)

Nothing wrong in that. My daughter regularly sees/hears me setting up
dates with men without them calling me first. I've been in and out of the
dating scene for about 10 years...and has that ever been interesting...just
this year, while in a love relationship, I discovered a side to myself that I
had been keeping under wraps since I was very young. This year has been
one of experimentation and fun...even though the person and I are not
together any longer, I am still pursuing this particular area (smbd). I
feel powerful in a way that I had not experienced in the traditional male
domination/female submission roles I was used to in the last 23 years.
My daughter, of course, does not know about this side of her Mom, but
she knows that I have a few male friends that I date.

Hopefully it sunk in. I hate to see adolescent girls freaking out
about their weight. I hate to see anyone freaking out about their
weight, but with young girls it can screw them up for life.

I sure hope it has, but there is a lot more peer pressure regarding body
image now than there was when I was a teen-ager. Of course, I was 5'6"
and 119 lbs from the time I was 12 until I reached 19... After I started
to have sex, my weight began to climb to about 125-130 which is where
my body seems to be most comfortable...still slender, but not because I
diet. My metabolism seems to be quite active, hence the nickname "Jet."
I am a very hyper individual, who accomplishes a lot and has many
diverse interests.

Of course, there's also the problem with young men on steroids, trying
to pump themselves up. Also can screw them up for life, not to
mention making them more aggressive.

I was just reading an article about men and eating disorders today in the
May issue of New Woman magazine. It was several pages and it was very
interesting that young men to men in their 40's are very much into the
diet and exercise phases of body image. Drugs, bulimia, anorexia, etc. are
as much a part of their lives as in the lives of women, thanks to the media.
It seems as men's clothing has become more adventurous, so has the men's
desire to be physically appealing--look at the male models...washboard
stomachs, heavily muscled, lean and mean...it's the same things women
have been dealing with since Twiggy in the 60's. It just took them longer
to get to this point. It is a shame that our society places such emphasis on
looks as opposed to the things that count: honesty, integrity, loyalty, kindness
and spirituality...all the things that make up the spiritual and emotional side
of a person.

I wore makeup in 9th grade. Purple eyeshadow, mostly. There was a
point in college where I wore it too. I seem to have survived. :)

Yes, you did.

Dee-Ann, I really enjoy your posts even if I don't alway respond. Have a
terrific weekend.

Jet

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's the risk you take if you change: that the people you've
been involved with won't like the new you. But other people
who do will come along. --Lisa Alther

Jet Tenley P.O. Box 25171
jet@nwlink.com Seattle, WA 98125-2071
Phone: (206)527-0492 FAX: (206)517-3038

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:47:14 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Mothers Day and Music
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

David:
You can never go wrong with flowers.

Peter


Also, a propos of Mother's Day, are there suggestions about ways to
mark the day for a supreme mother, either one's own, or (in my case) someone
else's?

DL


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:23:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Raising children in our world
Message-Id: <199605102123.OAA07715@netcom2.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1182

Thanks to all who are posting in this thread, most especially to Dee, Jet
and Laura, but really to all. As a continuing discussion it is one of the
most rewarding I have so far seen anywhere on the Net, let alone on this
list with its many insights.

Because this list seems to be as much a futurist-feminist forum as one
about erotic lifestyles, at some point it must deal with how we raise and
teach our young in a dangerous and changing new world.

I hope all who are or been been parents and/or teachers will add to this
thread, and that it continues for a long time and is revived occasionally.
Again, thanks to all of you for this, and happy Mothers' Day to any of
you who have ever cared for a child.

Shine on.... :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 18:57:33 -0700
From: jet@nwlink.com (Jet)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Raising children in our world
Message-Id: <199605110157.SAA26353@montana.nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks to all who are posting in this thread, most especially to Dee, Jet
and Laura, but really to all. As a continuing discussion it is one of the
most rewarding I have so far seen anywhere on the Net, let alone on this
list with its many insights.

Because this list seems to be as much a futurist-feminist forum as one
about erotic lifestyles, at some point it must deal with how we raise and
teach our young in a dangerous and changing new world.

I hope all who are or been been parents and/or teachers will add to this
thread, and that it continues for a long time and is revived occasionally.
Again, thanks to all of you for this, and happy Mothers' Day to any of
you who have ever cared for a child.

Shine on.... :)

Thank you for your Mothers' Day wish. I appreciate your input of what
we've been discussing and I agree children are our future, both male
and female. If boys and girls are raised in a way that is proactive, peace-
oriented and full of hope and love, what more could the world ask for.

Happy Mothers' Day to all of us and our Mothers, and their Mothers...

Peace and Love to all of you,

Jet

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's the risk you take if you change: that the people you've
been involved with won't like the new you. But other people
who do will come along. --Lisa Alther

Jet Tenley P.O. Box 25171
jet@nwlink.com Seattle, WA 98125-2071
Phone: (206)527-0492 FAX: (206)517-3038

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 16:26:37 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Raising children in our world
Message-Id: <199605111425.QAA13076@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote Jet:

There
is no rush, except the rush society and the media seem to be putting
on our children. I monitor what she watches on television very closely
and then we talk about the hidden messages behind the programs or the
advertisements. I've been doing this since she saw her first television
program. It is very interesting how aware children are of what they see
there. Also, even billboards and ads in magazines, have those hidden
messages and we talk about that too. The only way to protect the children
is to teach them what to look for and what to watch out for and hope
they understand.

Dear Jet, and everybody,

I should perhaps tell you about my two daughters (the older of them just
turned 30). From the beginning, we treated them as rational beings. We
think that children is just as rational as adults are, and usually more logical
too, as nobody has had time as yet to teach them otherwise. What they
lack is just facts and experience, which is something entirely different. So
when we had to lay down a rule, we never said 'because I say so' but gave
rational reasons for it. Our experience (though limited) shows that this
works. We never had any difficulty with their behavior, even though the
rules were quite strict. No teenage rebellion whatever. But when they
disagreed with us, they were wont to stick their greasy little paws up in the
air, demanding a vote. Which they got of course. If it turned out a tie,
two against two, there was nothing to do but to argue the case until
consensus was reached. That time was well spent. They always accepted
a coherent argument. I do not think they were abnormal. Well, possibly
abnormally normal, for our culture.

This went for the matter of boys too. They simply did not find them
terribly interesting in the ages around 13--17, which shows good judgment.
They are not, just late-developing, intellectually and socially, and quite
unruly, building their silly little hierarchies by means of horseplay. My
girls preferred real horses. They curried and mucked out and pushed
wheelbarrows and behaved in the riding stable as they did at home, not
accepting any authoritarian airs and methods. Not only the boys but also
many adults were afraid of them, because they sensed their strenght and
integrity. Both were regarded as tomboys, but there was nothing wrong
with their gender identity. When they finally decided that the boys had
grown up enough to be interesting, they snared them in style. Both are
very attractive young women.

One reson of our success was that my wife insisted on remaining a
homewife until the girls started school. Then she worked part-time for
quite some time. This meant that our family income was very low for
many years, certainly above the poverty line, but only because none
of us smoked, and we had no car (which was possible because we lived
in inner cities---in Sweden, these have largely remained civilized). My
wife regarded her work at home as legitimate, worthy work, and she
also liked it (she now has a very responsible executive post). Why, asked
she, should only wage labour be regarded as 'work'? Is not work
legitimate unless someone else derives a profit from it, i.e. exploits it?
It does of course take a strong and independent mind to act that way.
And I am of course aware that in most cases, her decision is out of the
question. Fortunately, we have (or have had, before the recent cuts
in municipal expenditure) good day-care centers, which have a
rational philosophy of not forcing outdated gender roles on the kids.
This is really key to it all.

Best regards,

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:45:09 -0500
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Raising children in our world
Message-Id: <199605111445.JAA00344@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We have a 14 yr old daughter. Of late she has taken a shine to
_Seventeen_ magazine. It seems to me the messages are not even hidden: they
scream at me from the cover: make yourself attractive, etc.
Are there other magazines geared to the same age group that are -
how shall I say this - not so crassly sexploitive?
I liked the idea of trying to engage the kid in discussion about the
contents - not only the editorial but also the advertising images. Thanks.

DL

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 08:15:24 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Check my pages!
Message-Id: <199605121515.IAA06873@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

I finally finished my web pages (although I'll be adding links). Tell
me what you think.

http://www.netcom.com/~lalaura/...

..family.html
..priestess.html
--
Laura Goodwin

" Truth is the only safe ground to stand on."

(Elizabeth Cady Stanton)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Raising children in our world
Message-Id: <199605122202.PAA01520@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1727

David Land wrote:

We have a 14 yr old daughter. Of late she has taken a shine to
_Seventeen_ magazine. It seems to me the messages are not even hidden: they
scream at me from the cover: make yourself attractive, etc.

Well, I used to get _Seventeen_ as well and I turned out ok. :) No,
the messages aren't hidden...but, in a way I prefer them blatant. In
a way, _Seventeen_ is kind of another "growing up" ritual...in that
you're old enough to "buy and need" it.

Are there other magazines geared to the same age group that are -
how shall I say this - not so crassly sexploitive?

I'm not up on my teen magazines. I know there were a lot of "rock
star hunk" kinda magazines when I was younger. If you'd like her to
have a balanced view of things, try to find a science or hobby
magazine that interests her.

I liked the idea of trying to engage the kid in discussion about the
contents - not only the editorial but also the advertising images. Thanks.

Sounds like a good idea. Find out what she thinks of all of that
stuff. Does she feel the need to try to look like that? Does she
realise those women are airbrushed and otherwise altered so _they_
will look like that?

Some girls (or people in general) are more slaves to fashion and
popularity than others. The important thing is whether her identity
comes from who she is inside, or from outside things like possessions
and peers.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 19:58:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Check my pages!
Message-Id: <199605122358.TAA06676@norway.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:15 AM 5/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
I finally finished my web pages (although I'll be adding links). Tell
me what you think.

Very nice. I love your outfit; but is that a phallic symbol you have in
your hand? :) Pretty wholesome presentation. Amazing that you could get
the cooperative and agreement of your whole family group to inclusion in it.
That alone should be an argument for your alternative lifestyle.

zbobz




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 20:53:57 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: For the record
Message-Id: <199605130353.UAA26540@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com

I overreacted when I called Peter a prick. I'm sorry I did that. Peter
was very civilized about it.

If you don't know or care what I'm talking about, leave it that way!

On to the next crisis...

--
Laura Goodwin

" Truth is the only safe ground to stand on."

(Elizabeth Cady Stanton)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 07:30:09 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: For the record
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

As I said to Ms Laura in a private message, her apology to me is very kind,
but totally unnecessary. I have been called worse things before and I also
overreacted in my reply.

I also think that she is the glue that holds this forum together and I'm
sure everyone will agree that reading her thoughts is a welcome addition to
our days.

Now, on to more important topics.

Peter

I overreacted when I called Peter a prick. I'm sorry I did that. Peter
was very civilized about it.

If you don't know or care what I'm talking about, leave it that way!

On to the next crisis...



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 05:04:52 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Today's Quote...
Message-Id: <199605131204.FAA05178@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

When a woman seriously asks herself what it means to be a woman,
she is pulling at a thread that can unravel an entire culture.

Kim Chernin - "Reinventing Eve"


--
Laura Goodwin

" Truth is the only safe ground to stand on."

(Elizabeth Cady Stanton)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 08:05:16 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: What's cool about men: one example
Message-Id: <199605131505.IAA23984@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

MAN BITTEN BY SNAKE - A man bitten by a poisonous coral snake killed
the reptile by biting off its head, then used its skin as a
tourniquet...a move that probably saved his life. [Associated Press]
--
Laura Goodwin

" Truth is the only safe ground to stand on."

(Elizabeth Cady Stanton)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 96 17:21:26 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Revenge! (Was: Re: What's cool about men: one example)
Message-Id: <199605131520.RAA18772@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 13 May 1996 08:05:16 -0700, Laura Goodwin wrote:

MAN BITTEN BY SNAKE - A man bitten by a poisonous coral snake killed
the reptile by biting off its head, then used its skin as a

An eye for an eye, or what!?! :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Everybody knows, that the
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | best nuts come from
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | California.
|Sweden | | -Sunkist
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:59:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: What's cool about men: one example
Message-Id: <199605131959.MAA19042@netcom2.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 673

Quoth Laura Goodwin:

MAN BITTEN BY SNAKE - A man bitten by a poisonous coral snake killed
the reptile by biting off its head, then used its skin as a
tourniquet...a move that probably saved his life. [Associated Press]

Very much a guy, thing, I have to agree. :D
See? We folks with testosterone have our good side! :)

c.s.
in a bug-eating mood after yesterday's 41 C / 109 F

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:30:14 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unwanted mail
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I came across a news story that says that MCI is going to disconnect its
customers who use its Internet service to persistently send unsolicited
mail for mass distribution.

It goes on to say that the prohibitions include sending email to more than
25 users if complaints are received, posting of articles to Usenet or
newsgroups that fall outside their subject charter and posting an identical
article or advertisment to multiple Usenet or newsgroups.

Fortunately, I am not only submissive but also computer-illiterate (proud
of the former, ambivalent toward the latter). Maybe someone else can
figure out if this relates to our problem; and what to do.

Peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 17:10:14 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: What's cool about men: one example
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960514001014.006692d8@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well maybe if he had asked the snake if it was o.k. to be in his home...the
whole thing might have been avoided and both would have left with their skin
intact...(i.e. the man no hole in flesh from snake bite, the snake with its
whole skin)
patricia

At 12:59 PM 5/13/96 -0700, you wrote:
Quoth Laura Goodwin:

MAN BITTEN BY SNAKE - A man bitten by a poisonous coral snake killed
the reptile by biting off its head, then used its skin as a
tourniquet...a move that probably saved his life. [Associated Press]

Very much a guy, thing, I have to agree. :D
See? We folks with testosterone have our good side! :)

c.s.
in a bug-eating mood after yesterday's 41 C / 109 F

___________________________________________________________________
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For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


see Manchester, New Hampshires Information Network (Still under construction)
and talk to the professionals at MainArtery for your private and business
web access, web design, web page maintanence and advertising needs...
http://www.mainartery.com

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #66
***********************************************

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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 67

Today's Topics:
Re: unwanted mail
Re: What's cool about men: one example
Re: unwanted mail
Re: What's cool about men: one example
Re: What's cool about men: one example
Re: unwanted mail
Snakes.
Re: What's cool about men: one example
Re: Snakes.
new to the joy of female supremacy
Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
new to the joy of female supremacy
Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Re: new to the joy of female supremacy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:50:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: unwanted mail
Message-Id: <199605132050.NAA00695@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1743

peter wrote:

I came across a news story that says that MCI is going to disconnect its
customers who use its Internet service to persistently send unsolicited
mail for mass distribution.

Good! Junk e-mail is a pain and costs people money along the road.

It goes on to say that the prohibitions include sending email to more than
25 users if complaints are received, posting of articles to Usenet or
newsgroups that fall outside their subject charter and posting an identical
article or advertisment to multiple Usenet or newsgroups.

Once again, good. I've been getting a lot of junk e-mail lately from
people with make money fast schemes and all sorts of other stuff.
Nice to see such a large company taking notice that this is a problem.

Fortunately, I am not only submissive but also computer-illiterate (proud
of the former, ambivalent toward the latter). Maybe someone else can
figure out if this relates to our problem; and what to do.

I don't see the problem. Mailing lists like this aren't considered
junk mail. People sign up to receive messages through a mailing list
on purpose. The people who are going to be hit by MCI's new policy
are the folks who just send the same thing to a bunch of random
strangers because they snagged their e-mail addresses off of a
newsgroup or something. And the folks who insist on posting the same
thing to a bunch of different newsgroup when it has nothing to do with
the newsgroup.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 15:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: What's cool about men: one example
Message-Id: <199605132240.PAA04856@netcom2.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1665

Patricia Hadley wrote:

Well maybe if he had asked the snake if it was o.k. to be in his home...the
whole thing might have been avoided and both would have left with their skin
intact...(i.e. the man no hole in flesh from snake bite, the snake with its
whole skin)

Thank you, Ma'am, for that reminder.

This is why in real life I keep several 'bug cups' in my
house, so that I can return them to nature when they show
up in my sink (or wherever). Last night I fell off a stool
trying to keep a lacewing from zapping itself on a light bulb.
I've also let the oleanders almost engulf my house because I'm
afraid to damage the hummingbird nests inside them. Spiders I
I carefully relocate to where they will do the most 'good' (the
'good' being the death of the aforementioned lacewings- I know).
I leave out a lot of water these days for whoever might need it,
and I water weeds a few hours before I pull and compost them,
because nothing should die thirsty.

(Another thought: Doesn't the Serpent have special meanings
in Womens' lore? Kill a snake? Not this boy. Not today.)

People laugh at my sentimental meddling in nature and tell me
to get a life: I tell them to get a karma. ;P
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 19:40:51 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: unwanted mail
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dee-Ann wrote:

I don't see the problem. Mailing lists like this aren't considered
junk mail. People sign up to receive messages through a mailing list
on purpose. The people who are going to be hit by MCI's new policy
are the folks who just send the same thing to a bunch of random
strangers because they snagged their e-mail addresses off of a
newsgroup or something. And the folks who insist on posting the same
thing to a bunch of different newsgroup when it has nothing to do with
the newsgroup.

Dee-Ann

Sorry if you thought I meant this mailing list is junk mail. Obviously, I
didn't or I wouldn't have subscribed. As I said, I'm computer-illiterate. I
thought that this list somehow got connected to people sending the junk
mail; and if enough people complained, or did something naughty to the
people sending it; then the problem would be solved.

Peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:55:30 -0700
From: hadley
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: What's cool about men: one example
Message-ID: <31980432.3ECE@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yes, the serpent is special, that's why Eve in the garden talking to the
serpent is so significant. they used the old ways and old strengths and
turned them against women to make their 'one male god'. good practices
Coyote Sings..yes, we are not above anything in nature...we are just one
more of the kids in different skins.
Patricia

Coyote Sings wrote:


(Another thought: Doesn't the Serpent have special meanings
in Womens' lore? Kill a snake? Not this boy. Not today.)

People laugh at my sentimental meddling in nature and tell me
to get a life: I tell them to get a karma. ;P
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:59:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: What's cool about men: one example
Message-Id: <199605140359.UAA01105@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1087

Noble wrote:

Well maybe if he had asked the snake if it was o.k. to be in his home...the
whole thing might have been avoided and both would have left with their skin
intact...(i.e. the man no hole in flesh from snake bite, the snake with its
whole skin)

Indeed. Though, sometimes we humans are a little blind and stumble
into places without realising something already lives there.

On this subject, I'd like to just point one thing out about snakes.
Don't think you're doing them a favor if you move them from your yard
or house out a ways into the woods. Snakes don't move well as
adults. They generally die if they're moved.

What to do about it? *shrug* If they're not poisonous, leave them
alone. If they are, you could call the local wildlife rescue folks
and have them removed.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 May 96 07:35:19 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: unwanted mail
Message-Id: <199605140534.HAA10041@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 13 May 1996 13:50:02 -0700 (PDT), Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

peter wrote:
It goes on to say that the prohibitions include sending email to more than
25 users if complaints are received, posting of articles to Usenet or
newsgroups that fall outside their subject charter and posting an identical
article or advertisment to multiple Usenet or newsgroups.

Once again, good. I've been getting a lot of junk e-mail lately from
people with make money fast schemes and all sorts of other stuff.
Nice to see such a large company taking notice that this is a problem.

Wouldn't suprise me if MCI has been catching heat from their own
customers about all of this annoying abuse, and dissatisfied customers
translate to reduced income. This won't *stop* the abusers, but MCI can at
least claim to be pulling their straw to the stack. Let's hope all ISPs
follow. What a relief it would be to get rid of all the "I'm hot to trot"
phone sex spams and make money fast schemes.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 May 96 07:39:50 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Snakes.
Message-Id: <199605140538.HAA10540@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 13 May 1996 20:59:19 -0700 (PDT), Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

Indeed. Though, sometimes we humans are a little blind and stumble
into places without realising something already lives there.

You can say that again!

Don't think you're doing them a favor if you move them from your yard
or house out a ways into the woods. Snakes don't move well as
adults. They generally die if they're moved.

How did they get there in the first place without dying?

alone. If they are, you could call the local wildlife rescue folks
and have them removed.

How would the prevent them from dying, if adult snakes can't deal with
being moved?

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 00:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: What's cool about men: one example
Message-Id: <199605140720.AAA04733@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1779

Patricia Hadley wrote:

Yes, the serpent is special, that's why Eve in the garden talking to the
serpent is so significant.

Sure: the gift of both awareness, and self-awareness, and free!
Odd that in that particular myth Eve went for it and the male
didn't quite get it. (Which is probably the premise of this forum.
If Female superiority had a logo, Eve and the serpent could be it.)
Also odd that the editors left it in. That's one they missed, even
if

they used the old ways and old strengths and
turned them against women to make their 'one male god'.

Wonder how long She's going to put up with it? With Her
plural and verbal names, no male handle in sight. :]

good practices Coyote Sings...



yes, we are not above anything in nature...we are just one
more of the kids in different skins.

My cats were not so charitable: they noted our lack of
fur, incurable clumsiness, dependence on tools, need to sleep
in one place and deficient night vision as utterly pathetic.
They probably stalked me when I wasn't looking.
;]
Once we learn to be really at home in Nature and love her chaos
(scary though it may be at times) we will start enjoying life
instead of fighting it.

roar, chirp, buzz, whistle, yelp while the
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:16:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonathan
To:
cc: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Snakes.
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 14 May 1996, wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 1996 20:59:19 -0700 (PDT), Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:
Don't think you're doing them a favor if you move them from your yard
or house out a ways into the woods. Snakes don't move well as
adults. They generally die if they're moved.

How did they get there in the first place without dying?

alone. If they are, you could call the local wildlife rescue folks
and have them removed.

How would the prevent them from dying, if adult snakes can't deal with
being moved?


Presumably, Dee-Ann meant that a snake has to stay in that subset of
the world which it can get to by slithering. Moving a snake may
leave it in place where its range is so limited that the snake
cannot find food - sort of like moving a fish from a lake to a
small puddle.

Note: this is just my interpretation of what Dee-Ann said. Until she
mentioned it, I hadn't realized snakes were limited in this way.

Cheers, Jonathan

... and now we return you to your regularly-sheduled email list.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 23:59:57 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-ID: <319980ED.196D@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I JUST RECENTLY DESCOVERED THE FACT THAT I AM A DOMINATRIX AND MY HUSBAND
JUST DESCOVERED HE HAS ALWAYS UNCONSCIOUSLY WANTED TO WORSHIP, SERVE AND
OBEY ME. I NEED TECNICAL INFORMATION ON HOW TO TRAIN MY NEW WILLING SLAVE
WE ARE IN LOVE AND NOT INTO THE KINKIER AWPECTS OF S AND M I WELCOME
ADVICE FROM FEMALES ONLY WHO ARE LIKE ME AND EXPERIENCED IN SUBJAGATING
THEIR MAN. ESPECIALLY HOW TO ARTICLES AND NET ADRESSES TO GET INFORMATION

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:51:05 -0700
From: hadley
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-ID: <31998CE9.515B@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I and my sub, highly recommend the book: THE LOVING DOMINANT by
John Warren. Ph.D. He is a dominant and living the lifestyle...great
book.
Patricia and the unworthy guy who serves her!


Thomas Hughes wrote:

I JUST RECENTLY DESCOVERED THE FACT THAT I AM A DOMINATRIX AND MY HUSBAND
JUST DESCOVERED HE HAS ALWAYS UNCONSCIOUSLY WANTED TO WORSHIP, SERVE AND
OBEY ME. I NEED TECNICAL INFORMATION ON HOW TO TRAIN MY NEW WILLING SLAVE
WE ARE IN LOVE AND NOT INTO THE KINKIER AWPECTS OF S AND M I WELCOME
ADVICE FROM FEMALES ONLY WHO ARE LIKE ME AND EXPERIENCED IN SUBJAGATING
THEIR MAN. ESPECIALLY HOW TO ARTICLES AND NET ADRESSES TO GET INFORMATION

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 06:50:04 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-Id: <199605151350.GAA04273@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

I and my sub, highly recommend the book: THE LOVING DOMINANT by
John Warren. Ph.D. He is a dominant and living the lifestyle...great
book.

Yes, the book is excellent, and Mr. Warren himself is a fine person.

-- COMING SOON: MISS ABERNATHY'S CONCISE SLAVE TRAINING MANUAL <--

I previewed a galley of this book and it's terrific. Avail from the
same publisher: THE SEXUALLY DOMINANT WOMAN (A Workbook for Nervous
Beginners) By Lady Green. Check the URL etc. below for other books I
highly recommend:

*Greenery Press* page at http://www.bigrock.com/~greenery/
e-mail verdant@crl.com <--Lady Green Herself
or send SASE to 3739 Balboa Ave. #195, San Francisco, CA 94121


--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:54:41 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-Id: <9605151054.S618295150@houston.email.net

Further to the request for books on FemDom, FemSup,
EROTIC POWER by Gini Graham Scott
THE CORRECT SADIST by Terrence Sellers (alias Angel Stern)
DIFFERENT LOVING
VENUS IN FURS by Sacher-Masoch (THE classic)
Fiction: My Darling Dominatrix by Grant Andrews
THE MISTRESS BOOK by Berkana Press (available from FemSuprem books in
Brooklyn -- Artemis Creations
And depending on your personal style, magazines such as WHAP (Women
who Admiinster Punishment.)
Any other questions on lit, etc. you can write me at BODIE167@HOUSTON
.EMAIL.NET

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:33:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: tasha@shadow.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-Id: <199605160433.AAA13669@anshar.shadow.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thomas Hughes wrote:

I JUST RECENTLY DESCOVERED THE FACT THAT I AM A DOMINATRIX AND MY HUSBAND
JUST DESCOVERED HE HAS ALWAYS UNCONSCIOUSLY WANTED TO WORSHIP, SERVE AND
OBEY ME. I NEED TECNICAL INFORMATION ON HOW TO TRAIN MY NEW WILLING SLAVE
WE ARE IN LOVE AND NOT INTO THE KINKIER AWPECTS OF S AND M I WELCOME
ADVICE FROM FEMALES ONLY WHO ARE LIKE ME AND EXPERIENCED IN SUBJAGATING
THEIR MAN. ESPECIALLY HOW TO ARTICLES AND NET ADRESSES TO GET INFORMATION

Oh Boy.....You are probably very eloquent, powerfull and likeable in your
real life
persona, but your net aptitude leaves a bit to be desired.

If you are entering the internet to learn about D&S, BDSM, etc...then it is
preferable
that you learn the common etiquitte that we use here in these forums.

1) shut off your caps lock.
2) Understand that people in general have much more in life to do then just
teach you
about this newfound lifestyle and they are usually more likely to respond to
a request when
asked for in a manner more endering. ie:
- Tell a little about yourself in a candid manner.
- Tell us what you have done so far to attempt to learn
about this.
- Describe briefly, what you have already tried or read.
3)Shut off your caps lock.
4) Shut off your caps lock.


I spend a good deal of time sending out information to people on the net
who are looking to do some discovery about the lifestyle. I am always happy
to provide information to those who write to me a bit more humbly. I don't owe
anyone my time, nor do I have any responsibility to do this, I do it because
I usually enjoy it. But I never enjoy helping those who have done
absolutely nothing
for themself and want the info spoon fed to them just because I have it.

The internet has a wealth of information if you do a search for BDSM, or
Dominance.
Many adult or specialty book stores have lots of good books if you just
bother to go
and look through them. There is a book list that I send to people when
they ask sincerely for help. That same booklist is on a web page by the
library project.

I am *not* trying to Dominate you. No. On the contrary, you find that all
of a sudden
you are a dominatrix and your SO is a Slave ?? I just want people to be
honest with
their orientation and *observe* before jumping in.

*I* *am* a Dominatrix. I take it personally to find that someone newly
discovering
that they might enjoy some D/s play, calls themself the same thing as me.
*I* have done this for years.....many years. *I* am' a Dominatrix, and you are
someone discovering that you enjoy power exchange. Your SO is not a slave.
He is someone discovering that he enjoys power exchange.

I wish you luck and how you respond to this article (if you do) is
how I would percieve your ability to learn. If offended, or flaming, I will
assume..."Feh, it showed in the first letter"....if you come back to the group
or me, and ask humbly and sweetly for assistance, I will think " Well there
is someone with good potential"

Remember, Dominance dosen't have to be *demanding*
But a Dominant does

Tasha


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:01:04 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-ID:

FEI wish you luck and how you respond to this article (if you do) is
FEhow I would percieve your ability to learn. If offended, or flaming, I wil
FEassume..."Feh, it showed in the first letter"....if you come back to the gro
FEor me, and ask humbly and sweetly for assistance, I will think " Well there
FEis someone with good potential"

I don't know who you are, but pre-defining the conditions of another's
response seems to assure you of control--Please note that YOUR raging is
DEFINITELY offensive to THESE delicate senses. You do not have
proprietorship of the realm, and you do not speak for *ME*.

In-fighting is the LAST thing we need, dear lady.

BTW, as an aside, your name is one particularly held dear in my heart.
CybErotiComm, the Hot Spot Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:22:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 16 May 1996 tasha@shadow.net wrote:

I spend a good deal of time sending out information to people on the net
who are looking to do some discovery about the lifestyle. I am always happy
to provide information to those who write to me a bit more humbly.

Tasha, you have my respect for your contributions to the community.
Also, I am grateful for you offer of information concerning bdsm
activities.
Although my participation with bdsm is more recent than my interest
in Female Supremacy, I have become involved with the Portland "scene".
My first significant contribution to the community was the organization
and coordination of a weekly Munch. Of course, I would like to allow
news concerning this event to reach the widest possible audience.
At present I post information on the Munch to alt.sex.bondage and
alt.sex.femdom. Does anyone know of any other NGs where such
announcements would be valuable?
Thanks very much in advance.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #67
***********************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 68

Today's Topics:
Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Munch Announcement Sites (attn: BEW)
Unsubscribe
Re: Today's Quote...
Unidentified subject!
Re: Unidentified subject!
Re: Unidentified subject!
Re: Unidentified subject!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:04:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: new to the joy of female supremacy
Message-Id: <199605170004.RAA06015@netcom21.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3379

A Lady wrote via Thomas Hughes:

I JUST RECENTLY DESCOVERED THE FACT THAT I AM A DOMINATRIX AND MY HUSBAND
JUST DESCOVERED HE HAS ALWAYS UNCONSCIOUSLY WANTED TO WORSHIP, SERVE AND
OBEY ME. I NEED TECNICAL INFORMATION ON HOW TO TRAIN MY NEW WILLING SLAVE
WE ARE IN LOVE AND NOT INTO THE KINKIER AWPECTS OF S AND M I WELCOME
ADVICE FROM FEMALES ONLY WHO ARE LIKE ME AND EXPERIENCED IN SUBJAGATING
THEIR MAN. ESPECIALLY HOW TO ARTICLES AND NET ADRESSES TO GET INFORMATION

If I may breach your 'females only' embargo long enough to suggest some
sources:

Memebership on this list entitles you archive access, and I especially
recommend the looooong (121K) file 'The Dominatrix in Print and Other
Media,' which is an excellent source for almost everything on topic here.
It is carefully updated at the first of each month and posted to the
alt.sex.femdom newsgroup and to the FS archives 'here.' It is a work of
love on the part of Green Way and peter (I hope I got that right) and we
are in their debt.

To obtain the file (into your mailbox - it's 121k, remember) write to

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject field:

archive send resources/media

and a blank message space.

All Femsuprem resources available from this archive server include:

index - Index of Documents in this Archive

bibliography - ( 42k) Bibliography of Feminist Works
children - ( 1k) Non-Sexist Children's Literature
faq.txt - ( 10k) Frequently Asked Questions
femail - ( 1k) F-EMAIL list information
help.txt - ( 7k) Help for Mailing List and Archive Server Commands
manual - ( 29k) The Male Slave: An Owner's Manual by slave jerry
media - (121k) The Dominatrix in Print and Other Media (5/1/96)
org-list - ( 6k) List of Femsuprem Organizations
pointers - ( 83k) Pointer to Sex Info on the Net (5/1/96)
resources - ( 17k) Resources for Women's Activism
vsister - ( 6k) Virtual Sisterhood list information

To retrieve one of these documents, send mail to:

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject field:

archive send resources/xxxxxx

where xxxxxx is the name of the file, as listed above (please use
lower-case only). As an example, to retrieve the file called "index",
your mail would contain the subject "archive send resources/index". The
archive server will then mail the requested document to you.

If you'd like more information on the archive server and how it works,
set the subject of your mail to "help" and you will be sent more
information.

The newsgroup alt.sex.femdom maintained by our [lurking] friend
Jay Doubleyou is probably the best discussion site for Women On Top
eroticism.

I hope that you and other brand-newcomers to this list, such as Mesalina,
Mts Patricia and Sorceress (to name but a visible few) will benefit
from these resources.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:31:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Munch Announcement Sites (attn: BEW)
Message-Id: <199605170231.TAA04617@netcom17.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1232

I tried mailing this directly to Barry to save bandwidth, but it didn't
go. In any case others nmay find it of interest.

Subject: Munch announcements
To: emerson@ohsu.EDU
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:43:19 -0700 (PDT)

Hi, Barry-

You wrote (in part)

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:22:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright

My first significant contribution to the community was the organization
and coordination of a weekly Munch. Of course, I would like to allow
news concerning this event to reach the widest possible audience.
At present I post information on the Munch to alt.sex.bondage and
alt.sex.femdom. Does anyone know of any other NGs where such
announcements would be valuable?

You might want to try also

alt.personals.bondage
alt.women.supremacy

and any regional newsgroups you can find.

Good luck, and keep up the good work. :)

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:01:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Toshiba Hoy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

thanks

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 07:07:16 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Today's Quote...
Message-Id: <199605170507.HAA28370@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

When a woman seriously asks herself what it means to be a woman,
she is pulling at a thread that can unravel an entire culture.

Kim Chernin - "Reinventing Eve"



That is a really beautiful thought.
Keep on thinking :)
Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 19:36:55 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Donna wrote:

Well, I'm in the camp against making special names for female anythings.


I totally agree with Donna. In fact, more and more I see the word actor
being used to describe males and females.

I'm a journalist, and the paper I work for has made a point of using
non-sexist terms. It's in the stylebook. We're not allowed to say spokesman
or spokeswoman; only spokesperson. We can't say chairman or chairwoman;
only chair .... etc. etc.

What I suggest people do is phone their newspapers and complain if they see
such terms. If enough people do it, eventually they will change.

Peter



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 20:27:39 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-ID: <319E952B.4666@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fine then...lets just use one ... and it shall be woman. when we speak
of humans generically they shall be women. It shall be all huwomankind.
it shall be We hold these truths to be self-evident that all women are
created equal.
and, of course, women includes men :-)
Patricia


peter wrote:

Donna wrote:

Well, I'm in the camp against making special names for female anythings.


I totally agree with Donna. In fact, more and more I see the word actor
being used to describe males and females.

I'm a journalist, and the paper I work for has made a point of using
non-sexist terms. It's in the stylebook. We're not allowed to say spokesman
or spokeswoman; only spokesperson. We can't say chairman or chairwoman;
only chair .... etc. etc.

What I suggest people do is phone their newspapers and complain if they see
such terms. If enough people do it, eventually they will change.

Peter

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 10:39:50 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id: <199605190839.KAA15907@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fine then...lets just use one ... and it shall be woman. when we speak
of humans generically they shall be women. It shall be all huwomankind.
it shall be We hold these truths to be self-evident that all women are
created equal.
and, of course, women includes men :-)
Patricia


Agree. I think you both are right.:)
In your english language this works fine. As you wrote: WOMEN already
includes MEN.
In the german language and in most other languages this isnt so easy.
I personally love the use of the feminine terms but I accept that many
people are getting confused with that.
I had a very nice discussion with two women this week about exactly this
threat.One of the ladies is a student of womens history and a feminist and
insists on using the correct,new, feministic terms and the other is an
artist and doesnt see any neccesity to change her language. She even means
that it is up to the men to find new words that describe their positions
since she sees herself included in words like politican, worker, artist ...
When using the feminine terms, so she says, it is clear for her that a
woman is meant but there is no term that shows exactly that this worker ,
artist etc. is a man.
(I maybe have to add that in german this words *worker*, *artist*,
*politican*... are pure masculine terms.In english they are already more
neutral.)
She further says that men have lost their identity since their terms
include both genders while the feministic terms exclude the males.
The feministic lady said the opposite.She insists on changing language
behavior towards feminine words. She sees the symbols of masculinity in our
language and says that it should be normal to use the female symbols even
for positions that include both genders, since she sees the lack of
feminity in our political and economical structures and using feminine
terms is a tool to make aware about the majority on this planet.
She is more the radical one :)
In the end I think this tendency to use both-genders-including-terms like
*spokeperson* will win. It is fair, although emotionally I love the idea of
*womankind*.



peter wrote:

Donna wrote:

Well, I'm in the camp against making special names for female
anythings.


I totally agree with Donna. In fact, more and more I see the word
actor
being used to describe males and females.

I'm a journalist, and the paper I work for has made a point of using
non-sexist terms. It's in the stylebook. We're not allowed to say
spokesman
or spokeswoman; only spokesperson. We can't say chairman or
chairwoman;
only chair .... etc. etc.

What I suggest people do is phone their newspapers and complain if
they
see
such terms. If enough people do it, eventually they will change.

Peter


Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:10:29 -0700
From: jet@mail.nwlink.com (Jet)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id: <199605210010.RAA03875@montana.nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Donna wrote:

Well, I'm in the camp against making special names for female anythings.

Peter wrote:

I'm a journalist, and the paper I work for has made a point of using
non-sexist terms. It's in the stylebook. We're not allowed to say spokesman
or spokeswoman; only spokesperson. We can't say chairman or chairwoman;
only chair .... etc. etc.

What I suggest people do is phone their newspapers and complain if they see
such terms. If enough people do it, eventually they will change.

It is not only a matter of talking to newspapers and magazines that people
read and subscribe to, to write that way. It is also a matter of using the
terminology yourself and encouraging others to use it as well. There are many
people (men and women) that are against "political correctness." I find them
very offensive in the way that they talk. I tolerate them, but when I talk
with them,
I always use the 'person" form of a word, as opposed to the man or woman
form. It drives the anti-pc people nuts. Oh well....
Jet

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's the risk you take if you change: that the people you've
been involved with won't like the new you. But other people
who do will come along. --Lisa Alther

Jet Tenley P.O. Box 25171
jet@nwlink.com Seattle, WA 98125-2071
Phone: (206)527-0492 FAX: (206)517-3038

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #68
***********************************************

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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:
Re: Unidentified subject!
Re: Unidentified subject!
Gender and language (was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Bon voyage, Barry
Mother Russia
Re: Female superiority, Aha!
Gender/Languages
Re: Gender/Languages
New members introduce themselves.
Welcome :) (Re: New members introduce themselves.)
Swedish computer mag. appoints a female editor-in-chief.
She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:21:15 -0700
From: jet@mail.nwlink.com (Jet)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id: <199605210021.RAA04955@montana.nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Agree. I think you both are right.:)
In your english language this works fine. As you wrote: WOMEN already
includes MEN.

I would agree here as well, but would also agree with the end of this
response, that the neutral (i.e, spokesperson) will win out in general
because people, in general, don't want to work hard at language and
the fem/masc/neutral differences. They usually want something simple
and to the point.

In the german language and in most other languages this isnt so easy.

This is also true in Spanish, Italian, French, etc.

I had a very nice discussion with two women this week about exactly this
threat.One of the ladies is a student of womens history and a feminist and
insists on using the correct,new, feministic terms and the other is an
artist and doesnt see any neccesity to change her language. She even means
that it is up to the men to find new words that describe their positions
since she sees herself included in words like politican, worker, artist ...
When using the feminine terms, so she says, it is clear for her that a
woman is meant but there is no term that shows exactly that this worker ,
artist etc. is a man. She further says that men have lost their identity
since their terms
include both genders while the feministic terms exclude the males.
The feministic lady said the opposite.She insists on changing language
behavior towards feminine words. She sees the symbols of masculinity in our
language and says that it should be normal to use the female symbols even
for positions that include both genders, since she sees the lack of
feminity in our political and economical structures and using feminine
terms is a tool to make aware about the majority on this planet.
She is more the radical one :)

What diverse view points... It's interesting how the artist seems more
flexible,
while the historian is not as much. Both view points have validity, though.

(I maybe have to add that in german this words *worker*, *artist*,
*politican*... are pure masculine terms.In english they are already more
neutral.)

I never thought of the english language as being more neutral, but
now that I think about it, it can be depending on how it's used.

In the end I think this tendency to use both-genders-including-terms like
*spokeperson* will win. It is fair, although emotionally I love the idea of
*womankind*.

This discussion is fascinating. I hope more can elaborate on this thread.

Jet

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's the risk you take if you change: that the people you've
been involved with won't like the new you. But other people
who do will come along. --Lisa Alther

Jet Tenley P.O. Box 25171
jet@nwlink.com Seattle, WA 98125-2071
Phone: (206)527-0492 FAX: (206)517-3038

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:52:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 20 May 1996, Jet wrote:

It is not only a matter of talking to newspapers and magazines that people
read and subscribe to, to write that way. It is also a matter of using the
terminology yourself and encouraging others to use it as well. There
are many people (men and women) that are against "political correctness."

I agree completely with this statement. So many times lies and
distortions are allowed to continue and flourish simply because no one
will speak out against them. As others on this List have pointed out, it
is important that people, especially "people of respect", present an
alternate viewpoint. Courage, my Friends!

The whole controversy about "political correctness" would be amusing if
it were not still another effort by the right wing/patriarchy/power
structure to co-opt our language for their own gain. I'd certainly
rather be "correct" than "incorrect" in any area, but nobody seems to
look at it from that perspective. Instead, the term has become an
all-purpose smear against anyone expressing any sort of progressive
ideals, including feminists. Take back our language!

Over the years I've watched the controversies concerning language and
grammar swirl about, and the only constant principle I've discovered is
that everyone has the right to be addressed as she/he sees fit. The
corollary is that no one should be subjected to offensive or derogatory
terminology.

Had enough of my ramblings? You'll have a bit of peace in the next
month, at least. Wednesday morning at 0500 I'm taking off for a vacation
in Russia, a place I've dreamed of visiting for many years. It's
rock'n'roll over there right now, and among many other things I'll be
checking out the FemSupremacy and bdsm situations. If I can gain access
to a computer which will enable me to telnet to this account (and can
find the time) I'll pass along anything of interest. In any event, I'll
post when I get home.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 07:18:01 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Gender and language (was Re: Unidentified subject!)
Message-Id: <199605211418.HAA00795@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

I never thought of the english language as being more neutral, but
now that I think about it, it can be depending on how it's used.

Jet

Right. Look at the romance languages, where even inanimate objects
have a sex. An ashtray is feminine, a cigarette is masculine, a shoe
is feminine, a shoelace is masculine...in English these objects are
gender neutral, and a sexless thing is "it".


--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 07:12:21 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Bon voyage, Barry
Message-Id: <199605211412.HAA03722@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com

Barry wrote:

You'll have a bit of peace in the next month, at least. Wednesday
morning at 0500 I'm taking off for a vacation in Russia, a place I've
dreamed of visiting for many years.

Have a great trip, Barry! :) I'm looking forward to a full report on
your return. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Mother Russia
Message-Id: <199605211800.LAA13441@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3638

Barry wrote:

Wednesday morning at 0500 I'm taking off for a vacation
in Russia, a place I've dreamed of visiting for many years. It's
rock'n'roll over there right now, and among many other things I'll be
checking out the FemSupremacy and bdsm situations. If I can gain access
to a computer which will enable me to telnet to this account (and can
find the time) I'll pass along anything of interest. In any event, I'll
post when I get home.

I really envy you that experience, Barry: seeing Russia for
the first time is an eye-opener, and leaves one wondering how
people who in so many ways are like us (in the west) can be so
utterly different.

(Some answers: centuries of Mongol and Tatar occupation, a
millenium of bitter confrontation with both Islam and the West,
no Renaissance, no Reformation, a geography that leaves it open to
invasion, etc. In spite of the attempted reforms by Tsars from Peter I
and Catherine to Gorbachev, Russia has stayed stubbornly 'different'
and at bottom suspicious of anything foreign, East or West.)

One thing I remember is how babies are bound from birth until
they can walk with their arms tightly to their sides, where western
babies are free to wave their little arms about. What very deep
effect can have on the psyche?

I was first there in the time when Khrushchev was in charge, and
attempting (with limited success) to introduce what we now call
_glasnost'_. Things actually seemed to be working- this was
probably as good as it got- except that there was a curious
division of society into two groups: the men (who were drunk,
chronically, everywhere) and the women (who were =not= drunk,
who swept the streets and dug the ditches, and who otherwise
got things done, notably in the unregulated markets). This
division deepened under Brezhnev, it seemed.

Two years ago I was for 3 weeks the host/interpreter for an
Orthodox priest and his wife, both from the Urals but now in St
Petersburg. They were both nice enough folks, but again this
division of the sexes held: he was deeply conservative and
rigid (no Reformation, remember), whereas =she= was very bubbly,
intuitive, connected almost to the point of telepathy, at home
in our strange land and clearly a natural dealmaker in the best
bazaar fashion. She clearly was in charge of all things profane
in their marriage and had overcome the baby-binding. He had not,
but they were genuinely fond of each other after 20 years.

Just some highly subjective observations that might give you
pointers to real-life street-level FS in Mother Russia.

That said, you're going at the best time of year, just when
the endless winter has finally given way to spring, and Russians
are at their best and most hospitable. Also there's an election
coming up while you're there, right? Keep in mind that most of
the opposition are running _against_ the rock'n'roll you mentioned,
from Zhirinovskiy and Lebed on the right to Zyuganov on the left-
there is a deep-seated fear among many that 'rock'n'roll and other
Western innovations will end baby-binding as we know it.'

Enjoy, and come back safe.
Zhelayu vam Mir :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:21:23 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female superiority, Aha!
Message-Id: <199605220621.IAA14230@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


The answer is that when I say Women are superior to men, I mean the
Female gender is superior to the male gender with respect to reproductive
role. While both genders are required to achieve reproduction, She
carries
the primary burden of responsibility and control. She is his equal or
(in
most instances) his superior with respect to any aspect of the
reproductive
function. It is not that the Female gender must acquire superiority via
association with other attributes, but rather that Femaleness is an
attribute in itself superior to the attribute to maleness. Woman is the
primary gender, and males the secondary gender with respect to the
function
of reproduction. This is not a minor point, since the reproductive
function
is the most vital and important function, and in that central position
shapes all other secondary functions. Woman's gender superiority shapes
all
of human reality and experience.

That is how i see it , too. It is the female gender who reproduces themself
with the help of man-kind. Accepting and appreciating this was a major
keypoint in my live too. I always had a big problem with this image of a
male god and I never was satisfied with this whole *woman made of the
mans rib* story ( I am no longer member of the catholic church, so I dont
know details about how this should work )
But yes, the reproductive role of women is the basis for their erotic power
over men, although sex, erotic isnt just here for reproduction.



Having grasp the foregoing, my feelings about submission, Female
superiority, Female domination, etc. make a whole lot more sense. These
are
not the stuff of aberration, but rather the surfacing of a deep (perhaps
hardwired) understanding of the human biological reality, and the roles
of
Women and men.

zbobz

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:23:07 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Gender/Languages
Message-Id: <199605220623.IAA14236@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jet wrote:
Agree. I think you both are right.:)
In your english language this works fine. As you wrote: WOMEN already
includes MEN.

I would agree here as well, but would also agree with the end of this
response, that the neutral (i.e, spokesperson) will win out in general
because people, in general, don't want to work hard at language and
the fem/masc/neutral differences. They usually want something simple
and to the point.


Agree, although I see some good points in not to simplify the languages.
In german the moon is masculine and the sun is feminine, in italian and I
guess in spanish too, the moon is feminine and the sun masculine.
This seems to be strange or even wrong, because the moon does not have any
sex but for humans s/he always had an iconic character, they were and are
still symbols, the moon for the feminine principle and the sun for the
masculine one. So this found its place in the languages.I think, maybe just
because I grew up this way, it is legitime to give things genders.
That maybe allows people to think a little more about their environment,
old cultures and history and the fact that there are at least two genders
on this planet.
But of course on the other hand WoMankind is a very complex thing, there is
no strict border between women and men, they are somehow different but
somehow they arent.
Using neutral terms make people to objects, it reduces them to their
function, what maybe is good in the case of politicans and most other
public positions.But it is also beautiful to see and enjoy the differences.
Again coming from german: Most terms of power are exactly masculine like
*captain*(of a county) (In german:*Hauptmann*, the *mann* at the end is
*man*)
This year we celebrated our FIRST (!) female captain (HauptMANN) in one of
our counties.
What a discussion!.
And one more thing:
A year ago or two a very short message run through the papers: Somewhere in
Switzerland in a little town or village their government decided to only
use the feminine terms for their politicans.It was accepted by the (male)
majority and so this town or village suddenly became a womens town. :)
I have never heard anything about this since then and I dont know what town
it was, or if it true. So maybe some of our european people on this list
know anything about this?????????
An interesting experience, isnt it?

She even means
that it is up to the men to find new words ...
The feministic lady said the opposite.She insists on changing language
....

What diverse view points... It's interesting how the artist seems more
flexible,
while the historian is not as much. Both view points have validity,
though.


Jet further wrote :
I never thought of the english language as being more neutral, but
now that I think about it, it can be depending on how it's used.


This discussion is fascinating. I hope more can elaborate on this
thread.

Jet


Yes, it is fascinating how different languages are and how they point to
different views and impressions a culture, a society made in its/his/her
history.
I am getting too long now.Thank you for your patience :)

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 07:37:36 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Gender/Languages
Message-Id: <199605221437.HAA24353@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

In german the moon is masculine and the sun is feminine, in italian
and I guess in spanish too, the moon is feminine and the sun
masculine. This seems to be strange or even wrong, because the moon
does not have any sex...

According to Barbara G. Walker in *The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths
and Secrets*:

In the original Old Norse, _Man_ meant "woman". The word for man was
_Wer_, as in Wer-wolf.

The name Man also meant "Moon", the Mother Goddess, creatrix of all
creatures. The Sanskrit root word _man_ meant both "moon" and
"wisdom", both traditionally belonging to the Great Goddess.

Scandinavians called the Goddess's realm in the sky Manavegr, the
"moon's way".

The Isle of Man was once sacred to the Moon-Goddess, who was variously
known as Man, Mana, Mana-Anna, or Manannan. No Manx sailor would go to
see without a lucky wren feather, which were the Goddess's
"soul-birds".

Gnostics defined Mana as "the divine spirit in man", and the Great
Mana, or Mana of Glory is "the highest Godhead".

I believe that woman's menstrual cycle and it's coincidental similarity
to the moon's phasic cycle solidified the association of women with the
Goddess of Life and Death, and the moon, in the minds of our stone-age
ancestors. There are Sun Goddesses also, but the oldest evidence
indicates that the earliest Goddesses were Goddesses of Water and
Blood, and the moon of course rules the tides.
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 16:44:22 +0000
From: Christine & David Stevenson
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: New members introduce themselves.
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960522164422.006c3b3c@mail.telepac.pt
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'd like to introduce myself and my long time partner to you all.
We are out of the way here in Portugal and the technology has
finally arrived to us too.

We are Christine & David Stevenson, the last name is mine, it
seemed appropriate that David drop his 'surname'. We are known to
many as Mistress Christine and David. Until recently we ran scene
holidays here for mostly couples, but are now concentrating on
the conventional tourism instead. Partly due to a mild ticking
off from the local constabulary, but mainly due the need to earn
a living. The tourists come in droves. Whereas scene folk only
ever came in dribs and drabs. (any puns here were unintended).

I used to be a computer programmer, when they filled rooms. David
programs as a hobby, now that they sit on desktops. He has taken
six months to write a batch file program that displays advice to
the (female) partner of a submissive man. The program was based
on our bestselling books, Prickteasing, Games People Play, and
the Fem Dom Manuals. If anyone has any ideas on how we could sell
this program through the internet we would be overjoyed to hear
them.

I hope our letter is not too long. If it is, say so and we'll be more
succinct next time. For long epistles feel free to mail us personally,
but we cannot guarantee to respond quickly in the summer months. The
tourists keep us pretty busy.

To be upfront, I was introduced to fem-dom by David some 17 years ago.
We are both in our early forties now and we are still going strong.

I don't know if you would call us fem-supremacists, as David clearly
is into it as a sexual turn on. Equally there is no doubt that I
started out doing it just to please him. But it has to be said that
learning to like it wasn't always too hard!

David would happily accept a fem-supremacist society governed by a
Matriarchy. He would only wish it to be run by women who loved
'prickteasing'.

Initially you might think this to be no more than selfish fantasy
fulfilment, but I think he might convince you otherwise. Over to
David......

This might be old hat to other subscribers, but I may as well explain
the way I think anyway.

When I was a pubescent lad, I thought some girls were prickteasers. I
explain at length in my books how and why I gradually learned to like
that fact, and take pleasure in it.

The way girls behaved was taught to them in a Patriarchal society, or
at least in a society a lot less liberated than it is today. In truth
most 'teasing' came about because girls had been taught that boys
wouldn't respect them if they 'went all the way'. Especially on the
first date.

A psychologist might say that I needed to believe women were
prickteasers to excuse myself for not being a real man and having my
way with them. And she/he would be right!

Nevertheless I am now a forty something year old man that would still
like to believe women love to tease men sexually and frustrate and
humiliate them.

So I'm arguing that if girls were taught to 'pricktease' actively
because it is a way of taking control rather than because sex was
dirty or bad, then more boys would grow into men like me. Ready
willing and able to succumb to feminine wiles.

I freely admit to wanting to be a wimp. I'd much rather be locked in a
chastity belt and wearing a pinny to do the dishes than go to a
football match. But I desperately want to believe I have no choice in
the matter, it's all her doing.

The only force powerful enough to convince me is sexual arousal. Lust!
So when Christine 'necks' with me on the sofa, and then stops when I'm
at boiling point and says, "maybe later, if you do as you're told," I
love it. I willingly knuckle under and the more she humiliates me the
easier to believe it is all her fault.

So, I say if you want a matriarchal society the best way to achieve it
is to make men willing to accept it. Feminists may not agree, but I
say dress to attract, and lead him on and he'll be putty in your
hands. I know I am!

"There, I've said what you wanted Christine. Can I take this spiky
thing off my penis now?"

........ "Maybe after you have mowed the lawn!"

Strictly, Christine.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:08:46 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Welcome :) (Re: New members introduce themselves.)
Message-Id: <199605221608.JAA21935@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

I'd like to introduce myself and my long time partner to you all.

We are Christine & David Stevenson, the last name is mine, it
seemed appropriate that David drop his 'surname'. We are known to
many as Mistress Christine and David.

Welcome to the list :) I am always glad to see loving femdom couples
joining us. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 96 00:16:34 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Fem. suprem."
Subject: Swedish computer mag. appoints a female editor-in-chief.
Message-Id: <199605222215.AAA06170@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It's small step of course, but in such a male dominated environment as
the computer industry the appointment of Lotta Kempe to editor-in-chief is
pleasing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Everybody knows, that the
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | best nuts come from
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | California.
|Sweden | | -Sunkist
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:03:14 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <199605231703.KAA08905@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

BRAZIL COURT RULING ON CHILD RAPE STIRS PROTEST - A decision by
Brazil's highest court to free a man convicted of raping a
12-year-old girl because it considered her promiscuous provoked angry
outbursts by feminist groups on Wednesday. [Reuters]

OK, let me see if I understand this correctly: A 12 year old girl who
may have consented to sex with someone loses the right to refuse anyone
ever again? Have I got that right? A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL whom the
court, in it's infinite wisdom, feels is sexually active may now be
considered anybody's, and you don't even have to be polite about it?

Is it just me, or does this kind of stuff make you mad enough to really
hurt somebody?




--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 96 21:12:06 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <199605231911.VAA19912@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 23 May 1996 10:03:14 -0700, Laura Goodwin wrote:

the court, in it's infinite wisdom,

Law is not justice. Law is power!

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #69
***********************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 70

Today's Topics:
New members introduce themselves.
Re: New members introduce themselves. (lulling)
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
chastity belts
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Great news for the list
Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Re: Great news for the list
Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Re: unsubscribe
Re: unsubscribe
Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:40:52 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: New members introduce themselves.
Message-Id: <9605231440.S660377305@houston.email.net

I don't know if you would call us fem-supremacists, as David clearly
is into it as a sexual turn on. Equally there is no doubt that I
started out doing it just to please him.
Join the club! This is the case in the majority of cases (please keep
anecdotal comments in perspective, gang.) You are in good company
Christine.
David would happily accept a fem-supremacist society governed by a
Matriarchy. He would only wish it to be run by women who loved
'prickteasing'.
My Wife and I have made this the cornerstone of our relationship for
the last five of the 21 years we have been married.
While we con't call it "prickteasing," it is the heating up of the
male and the control of his ability to "vent" that heat for -- with
us -- a LONG time (weeks occasionally, rarely, months)
A psychologist might say that I needed to believe women were
prickteasers to excuse myself for not being a real man and having my
way with them. And she/he would be right!
Speak for yourself, David. Again, perspectives differ. So a man who
does not "have his way with" women, -- or rape them -- is not being
a "real man." Think about THAT one!
So I'm arguing that if girls were taught to 'pricktease' actively
because it is a way of taking control rather than because sex was
dirty or bad, then more boys would grow into men like me. Ready
willing and able to succumb to feminine wiles.

I freely admit to wanting to be a wimp. I'd much rather be locked in a
chastity belt and wearing a pinny to do the dishes than go to a
football match. But I desperately want to believe I have no choice in
the matter, it's all her doing.
Yes, this attitude -- even among girls NOT considered tradinally
"pretty," or "appealing," -- is necessary, in my opinion. A males's
sexual appetite must be used against him for the best chance
of female rule.
But as for you needing to know that you have no choice, that can
only be achieved with time, or a very active imagination on
your (the male's) part. After all, the chance of having a woman
with whom you can have such a relationship can only be achieved
by not simply giving up power but taking on enough responsibilities
around the house, etc, to make her understand you are serious about
her "supremacy."
As for the "chastity belt," I have been enslaved in that FOR REAL
for days, sometime weeks, and once or twice months at a time. My
sexual urges were manipulated, the boiler stoked, but no chance to
vent them. All in all I agree: using a male's sexual urges against
him is the most effective way of controlling virtually everything he
does and is.
Anyone wishing to discuss can write me at BODIE167@HOUSTON.EMAIL.NET

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:37:49 -0400
From: Witchlvr@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: New members introduce themselves. (lulling)
Message-ID: <960523163748_497273704@emout16.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-05-23 15:43:35 EDT, you write:

David would happily accept a fem-supremacist society governed by a
Matriarchy. He would only wish it to be run by women who loved
'prickteasing'.
My Wife and I have made this the cornerstone of our relationship for
the last five of the 21 years we have been married.
While we con't call it "prickteasing," it is the heating up of the
male and the control of his ability to "vent" that heat for -- with
us -- a LONG time (weeks occasionally, rarely, months)

This reminds me of something from an old relationship. We called it lulling.
The first time this happened was after sex one night. My girlfriend started
stroking me right about at the base of the penis. The spot caused intense
pleasure, yet it was "off" enough that it kept me from orgasism. After a
while, I was just overcome with incredible feelings of submissiviness. A
feeling where I just totally belonged to her. It was amazing. For the next
couple of hours I just blabbered to her how much I belonged to her and how I
was her slave.

We ended up calling this technique/experience lulling. It was something we'd
do several times a week. A great enhancement we came across was to have me
wear one of her nightgowns while she did it.

rob

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:56:12 GMT
From: Len Bounds
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <199605232056.UAA06927@mailhost.worldnet.att.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

As long as people are introducing themselves, may i please do so? I am a
32-year-old male in Salem, Oregon
and have subscribed here for about a week or two. Since i am separated, I
don't have a partner
to talk about this subject with, so I just read. I've been shy to say
hello, but I like your ideals here.
Since a single male probably doesn't hold much interest for you all, I
thought I'd quote something and
give a comment. Since I am new I feel kind of awkward here.

OK, let me see if I understand this correctly: A 12 year old girl who
may have consented to sex with someone loses the right to refuse anyone
ever again? Have I got that right? A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL whom the
court, in it's infinite wisdom, feels is sexually active may now be
considered anybody's, and you don't even have to be polite about it?

Is it just me, or does this kind of stuff make you mad enough to really
hurt somebody?

Laura Goodwin

Well my comment is that in a good society of Women, rape cases would be
tried on the burden of proof
for the accused. Guilty men would be not only castrated, but have their
penis removed as well, as far
as incarceration, i dunno. Just a thought..

I have lots of thoughts but feel they might not be appropriate in public or
even here (on femsupremacy)..
hope to talk more later.. bye..
Len

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:38:55 -0400
From: Janice1223@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-ID: <960523173456_497315692@emout08.mail.aol.com

This kind of thing disgusts me....

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 02:48:25 +0000
From: Christine & David Stevenson
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: chastity belts
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960524024825.00682c98@mail.telepac.pt
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 14:40 23/05/96 CDT BODIE167@HOUSTON.EMAIL.NET wrote:

Speak for yourself, David. Again, perspectives differ. So a man who
does not "have his way with" women, -- or rape them -- is not being
a "real man." Think about THAT one!

I, David, agree. The point I was making is that I needed to excuse myself
for not conforming to the societal norm. And the rape trial letter about
Brazil earlier today demonstrates that the societal norm is wrong in many ways.

I rejected all the male conditioning but needed an excuse to be a wimp.
Christine makes it easy for me to continue rejecting these norms. Not that I
should need any help, but I can assure you it's much more fun to get some.

But as for you needing to know that you have no choice, that can
only be achieved with time, or a very active imagination on
your (the male's) part. After all, the chance of having a woman
with whom you can have such a relationship can only be achieved
by not simply giving up power but taking on enough responsibilities
around the house, etc, to make her understand you are serious about
her "supremacy."

Again I agree. Unfortunately we live in the real world, and I'm quite good
at what I do in business, so role reversal is difficult. Hence the sex games
like enforced chastity to find a way to express her supremacy.

As for the "chastity belt," I have been enslaved in that FOR REAL
for days, sometime weeks, and once or twice months at a time. My
sexual urges were manipulated, the boiler stoked, but no chance to
vent them. All in all I agree: using a male's sexual urges against
him is the most effective way of controlling virtually everything he
does and is.

Lucky you. I have to do quite a bit of physical work, cleaning villas and
pools, and we have yet to find a chastity belt that I can wear for longer
than a few hours without the chafing becoming a problem.

Even when I'm working in the office, constantly pestering to be removed for
toilet functions is a problem.

Finally overnight, Christine likes me to sleep beside her. But she finds
that when I'm locked up I toss and turn, and she has to release me in order
to get some sleep.

Personally I believe she is too kind and just gets to worrying about me in
her sleep.

Christine claims that she longs for someone to design an effective chastity
belt that would allow all toilet functions, and not permit a houdini like me
to escape if left unsupervised. A belt that could be worn for physical work
would be even better.

Anyone wishing to discuss can write me at BODIE167@HOUSTON.EMAIL.NET

I second that. Our mailing address is of course cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt.
Here my identity is effectively suppressed. But as you can see by this
letter, not that effectively.

David.

ps. We (Christine and I) wonder though if we are not depriving others on the
list if we take our correspondence into the personal arena. We have received
several personal responses to our original introductory letter which did not
appear on the list. Bodie's is the first we/(Christine) felt we/(David)
could answer publicly, given that our answers to the others would be
meaningless to list readers.

Being recent members we (both of us) are not sure if the membership likes
such long chats to take place on their Email time.

Christine and David.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 02:48:31 +0000
From: Christine & David Stevenson
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960524024831.006ba69c@mail.telepac.pt
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 20:56 23/05/96 GMT, Len wrote:
As long as people are introducing themselves, may i please do so? I am a
32-year-old male in Salem, Oregon

Welcome Len, please let us here more from you. Are they still burning
witches in Salem?

Then Len quotes Laura Goodwin's remarks which were


OK, let me see if I understand this correctly: A 12 year old girl who
may have consented to sex with someone loses the right to refuse anyone
ever again? Have I got that right? A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL whom the
court, in it's infinite wisdom, feels is sexually active may now be
considered anybody's, and you don't even have to be polite about it?

Is it just me, or does this kind of stuff make you mad enough to really
hurt somebody?

I'd like to answer both Laura and Len.

It makes me mad, but not enough to REALLY hurt somebody.

While castration may not be what Laura had in mind, Len goes on to say he
thinks it an appropriate punishment.

I'm fairly sure it would not stop all sexual violence against women by the
castrated. They would simply take to using objects, need I go into lurid detail.

And I take issue with Len's suggestion that the concepts of justice be
overturned in response. That those accused should be guilty until they prove
they are innocent.

This would be the thin end of the wedge. First sex offenders (including but
not exclusively rapists) would have to prove their innocence. Then we would
find sadomasochists locked up all over the place. Gays locked up for
spreading Aids. Prove they did not, the courts could claim! Where would it
all lead. Fem supremacists locked up for incitement to riot on the internet?

One should be innocent until proven guilty. There are already enough
Sadomasochists in Gaol (Jail) for praticing consensual acts, - witness the
Spanner case in England. I can do a little research of my records and quote
other examples.

Anyway, I think the core of Laura's complaint is not that rape takes place.
(Which we all deplore, I hope). But that the court had overturned a basic
tenet of justice, an individual's right to consent. Even if she is a
sexually active 12 year old girl.

David Stevenson.

ps. Brazil is not well regarded for it's treatment of minors!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:29:28 -0400
From: Andrew
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <31A51F08.ED0@packet.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 2944

Laura Goodwin wrote:

BRAZIL COURT RULING ON CHILD RAPE STIRS PROTEST - A decision by
Brazil's highest court to free a man convicted of raping a
12-year-old girl because it considered her promiscuous provoked angry
outbursts by feminist groups on Wednesday. [Reuters]

OK, let me see if I understand this correctly: A 12 year old girl who
may have consented to sex with someone loses the right to refuse anyone
ever again? Have I got that right?

Well, before we all get pious, perhaps there is something we are missing. I
hesitate to insert my paltry penny (I hardly think my male musings value two
cents worth) especially into the intense communications of one as consistently
intelligent and articulate as Laura Goodwin, but, I most humbly inquire, was there
more to the original news story? Because the conviction may have been for
something called "statutory rape" which involves sex with those under age and
where the issue of consent is not relevant. However, I know that in Florida,
where I am a practicing attorney with experience in the criminal defense field,
certain portions of the statute apply only to those children (in a certain age
category, but much less than the age of consent, I believe 14) OF PREVIOUS CHASTE
CHARACTER. Therefore, sex with a seventeen year old virgin is illegal in Florida,
but if the minor was promiscuous, the charge of statutory rape cannot be made.
This is not that uncommon a distinction throughout the U.S., varying, I suppose,
by age. It is not impossible to think that Brazilian jurisprudence might have a
similar concept, and that it was applied in this case. There are protections
reserved for children, in this case the legal presumption that children cannot
consent to sex, and that is why any sexual act, regardless of what we normally
think of as consent, is criminal with children. My guess is that the Brazilian
court perceived the child as a promiscuous person, and therefore declined to
afford her the protections reserved for children. However, when courts
decide to treat a teenage murderer as an adult, the accused still has the
constitutional rights of an adult accused. Similarly, when the court chooses to
perceive the victim as an adult, she still retains the rights of any adult, which
would be to consent to sex. Therefore, no automatic conviction. But no loss of
the right to consent or withhold consent either, Ms. Goodwin.

This is by no means an endorsement or lack of same of this thread of common law,
simply an attempt to shine some light on the subject so that my betters may have
more to comment upon.

humbly offered,

andrew

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Great news for the list
Message-Id: <199605240249.TAA04625@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 778

Well, for one thing I was just out in San Francisco and I'm back.
This is why I was so quiet. However, that isn't my great news. :)

We have a new server handling this list, and it's a much faster
machine. Soooo...while I ask that things still stay generally on
topic, and that people don't fill other folks' mailboxes up with "me
too" posts, we can handle higher traffic now.

I know, this kind of thing is mostly exciting to computer geeks like
me. :)

Dee-Ann
Mostly Friendly List Administrator

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:19:46 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-Id: <199605240319.UAA00774@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

andrew wrote:

was there more to the original news story? Because the conviction may
have been for something called "statutory rape" which involves sex
with those under age and where the issue of consent is not relevant.


*Brazil court ruling on child rape stirs protest*

[BRASILIA, The Reuters World Service via Individual Inc]:

A decision by Brazil's highest court to free a man convicted of raping
outbursts by feminist groups on Wednesday. The Supreme Federal
Tribunal quashed the conviction on Tuesday because it found
that the girl had been a willing partner, a court spokesman said.

(OK, so she wasn't "raped" raped, I guess.)

The feminist lobby in Congress condemned the ruling as guaranteeing
"impunity for sexual crimes against children." In a two-to-three
ruling, the tribunal quashed a six-year prison term imposed on
Marcio Luiz de Carvalho by a regional court in Minas Gerais state for
raping the girl. Justice Marco Aurelio de Mello wrote in a report
that the girl had acknowledged willingly having sex at least three
times in 1991 with Carvalho, who was then 24. She also admitted having
sexual relations with other men at the time and claimed she was
pressured by her parents into reporting Carvalho to the police.

(Maybe Carvalho is the only guy they knew about.)

The judge concluded that the girl, despite being only 12, led a
"promiscuous life." He added that times had changed and Brazil's 1940
penal code, which stipulates that sexual relations with minors under
the age of 14 constitutes violence, was "anachronistic." "Nowadays,
12-year-olds aren't children but girls," Mello said.

(What? Whaaaat? I don't think times have changed that much.)

The feminist deputies warned that the ruling set a dangerous precedent
in a country trying to stamp out sexual abuse of children and
widespread child prostitution. "A 12-year-old girl, even if she has
the body of a woman, does not have the psychological maturity for us
to allow them to be victims of this type of violence," the group of
nine deputies said in a statement. "This decision creates a serious
precedent for other similar cases which plague this country," they
added.

REUTER@
[05-22-96 at 17:09 EDT, Copyright 1996, Reuters America Inc.]


I admit I didn't know this was a consensual situation, but I still say
she is twelve, and I don't care if she strips and begs for it in Macy's
window at rush hour. I am a mother with children, and twelve is
twelve. Since when is a twleve year old girl child more responsible
than a 24 year old man?
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:25:17 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Great news for the list
Message-Id: <199605240325.UAA25000@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com

Dee-Ann wrote:

We have a new server handling this list, and it's a much faster
machine.

I know, this kind of thing is mostly exciting to computer geeks like
me. :)

:::breaking open the champagne:::

I think it's great! :) It means we are growing! :)
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:34:19 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-ID: <31A5586B.14CA@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

she can say yes till the cows come home...she is a twelve year old child
and cannot give that kind of consent....besides..what was it doing in
court if she was so consensual....24 year old men do not "fuck" 12 year
old children....now if she had been a boy...of 12, who supposedly gave
consent...it would have been an "unnatural act" and the guy would have
been hung.
the u.s. courts view it the same way...rape of a woman is a rape, but a
natural act...rape of a boy or man is rape and an unnatural act, you get
more time for the latter
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:45:05 -0400
From: Mikeyfyn@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <960523234504_308713273@emout17.mail.aol.com

I request to unsubscribe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 96 05:53:54 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Mikeyfyn@aol.com"
"femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Message-Id: <199605240352.FAA16033@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 23 May 1996 23:45:05 -0400, Mikeyfyn@aol.com wrote:

Mikeyfyn@aol.com

Permission denied!

You can always log out, but you can never leave!

Ha, ha, ha ... ho, ho, ho! <- Insane laughter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:54:12 -0400
From: Andrew
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-Id: <31A532E4.7DFF@packet.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 2534

Laura Goodwin wrote:

[BRASILIA, The Reuters World Service via Individual Inc]:

A decision by Brazil's highest court to free a man convicted of raping
outbursts by feminist groups on Wednesday. The Supreme Federal
Tribunal quashed the conviction on Tuesday because it found
that the girl had been a willing partner, a court spokesman said.

(OK, so she wasn't "raped" raped, I guess.)

Florida Statute 794.05: Any person who has unlawful carnal intercourse
with any unmarried person, of previous chaste character, who at the time
of such intercourse is under the age of eighteen years, shall be guilty
of a felony of the second degree....It shall not be a defense...that the
prosecuting witness was not of previous chaste character at the time of
the act when the lack of previous chaste character in the prosecuting
witness was caused solely by previous intercourse between the defendant
and the prosecuting witness.

The law: you can't be first but you may be next.

Is that right? Well, imagine that sixteen year old nymphet with bleached
blonde hair, 36-23-35, two tattoos and a piercing, pack of Marlboros in one
hand, pack of condoms in the other, who has been sexually active with men,
women, animals, and furniture for three years. (Florida has more than a
few). Is she capable of consent? Does she need that absolute protection?
Well, she sure did three years ago when some criminal despoiled her. But
what about the innocent 21 yoa roofer who believes her when she says she's
19 and she does him in the cab of his Ford Ranger? Should he do 8 to 15 in
Ted Bundy's old cell? And what about that 17 year old girl who celebrates
two years of dating her 17 year old boyfriend and makes prom night memorable,
first time for both. They BOTH go to jail. Is this what you want? Or would
you agree that there ought to be some discretion? And if so, whenever you
allow discretion you allow judgment calls, which are made by judges, who are
human and imperfect.

Regardless of your jurisprudential opinion, the Brazilian case would probably
have been decided the same way in the United States. But that's Bill Clinton's
America. Do you really think that Bob Dole would want to let this guy go free?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:16:08 -0400
From: adnyb@tiac.net (adnyb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <199605240416.AAA12014@zork.tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

BRAZIL COURT RULING ON CHILD RAPE STIRS PROTEST - A decision by
Brazil's highest court to free a man convicted of raping a
12-year-old girl because it considered her promiscuous provoked angry
outbursts by feminist groups on Wednesday. [Reuters]

OK, let me see if I understand this correctly: A 12 year old girl who
may have consented to sex with someone loses the right to refuse anyone
ever again? Have I got that right? A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL whom the
court, in it's infinite wisdom, feels is sexually active may now be
considered anybody's, and you don't even have to be polite about it?

Is it just me, or does this kind of stuff make you mad enough to really
hurt somebody?

Like maybe the judge of that "highest court"???

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:30:41 -0400
From: adnyb@tiac.net (adnyb)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <199605240430.AAA12280@zork.tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Welcome Len, please let us here more from you. Are they still burning
witches in Salem?


They never burned witches in Salem, OR - it was in Salem, MA - miles and
years apart, since OR didn't get "settled" by European transplants until way
after the witch trials
the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #70
***********************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 71

Today's Topics:
call congress free and screw the relig right
Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Re: call congress free and screw the relig right
Re: New members introduce themselves.
Re: New members introduce themselves.
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Assuming the woman's surname.
Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
?;^
Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
My .sig (Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Witch homicides
Poetry corner :)
Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:46:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nina Elfman
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: call congress free and screw the relig right
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Subject: Call Congress FREE FREE FREE FREE FREE]
Ralph Reed from the Christian
Coalition has started a 1-800 number that connects to the Congress switch
board in DC. He is using it for the so called Decency Act for internet
sensorship. Anyone can use this number to call your Rep and Senators and
express your opinion on any issue. The number is 1-800-962-3524. Call
let
your voice be heard on the issue of your choice and let Ralphy pay for
it!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:15:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-Id: <199605240615.XAA08374@netcom13.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 593

Noble wrote:

...what was it doing in court if she was so consensual....

Finally we get there:

What part of "No" needs explaining?
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 02:16:48 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: call congress free and screw the relig right
Message-ID: <31A57E80.5365@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well tell old ralphy pooh....that the Telecommunications Act includes
the Comstock provision about sharing any information about abortion over
the internet...and that you have visited several christian sites on the
net that have referred you to read the BIBLE, and while reading those
stories to your children you found more than 123 references to Abortion
and Abortificants.....
Tell him that is outlawed by the telecommunication act of 1996 and that
you hope he as a good christian who would not break the law..will tell
all his fellow christians to stop referring people to read that book
over the internet.....and ask for the address where you can turn such
wretched law breakers in...
Patricia


Nina Elfman wrote:

Subject: Call Congress FREE FREE FREE FREE FREE]
Ralph Reed from the Christian
Coalition has started a 1-800 number that connects to the Congress switch
board in DC. He is using it for the so called Decency Act for internet
sensorship. Anyone can use this number to call your Rep and Senators and
express your opinion on any issue. The number is 1-800-962-3524. Call
let
your voice be heard on the issue of your choice and let Ralphy pay for
it!

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: New members introduce themselves.
Message-Id: <199605240649.XAA12053@netcom13.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1360

Christine and David logged in with a longish introduction,
telling us a lot about themselves and their life in Portugal.
I wish everyone new -and not so new- would do that, even if
they're not in Portugual
It's a lot easier to write to people if we know a little bit about
them in advance, and I appreciate the long 'hello' they wrote for us.

Christine and David sound as though they are inventing their own
FS lifestyle as they go along, integrating all the parts both
erotic and otherwise with their daily public life, and I for one
admire that and wish them good luck and hope we can hear more from them
here. I especially admire the fact that David has taken Christine's
last name, which to me spells 'commitement' and a willingness to
walk the walk. :)

I'm also enjoying the 'chastity' thread as it develops,,,

Welcome, Christine & David and all the new faces just now showing. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.



This is a theory that many people would like. However (IMHO, of course),
if true justice were to be served here, the miscreant would be executed
after being emasculated. My personal preference would be drawn and
quartered, though I don't think too many "civilized" people would go for
such a thing.

It's the only way to make sure that the waste of life in question never
violates a woman again. After all, what would stop a genitally mutilated
con from using a foreign object? (I know this is a distasteful concept,
but these things do happen.)


I have lots of thoughts but feel they might not be appropriate in public or
even here (on femsupremacy)..
hope to talk more later.. bye..
Len

Welcome, Len. Good to see more new blood around here (I have actually
lurked for about 2 months, but this thread screamed for a response.)

Maureen

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 96 09:17:13 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-Id: <199605240716.JAA06149@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 23 May 1996 23:15:37 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

Noble wrote:

...what was it doing in court if she was so consensual....

Finally we get there:

What part of "No" needs explaining?

First of all I'd like to point out, that in my opinion the defendant in
this case would be found guilty by a Swedish court of law, if the
prosecutor can prove that the defendant is the person responsible for
having had sexual intercourse with the girl. What the girl may have done
or not done doesn't matter, since she's underage, and can't consent to sex
anyway. I would support such a sentencing completely.

When it comes to the girl having said no or not, most probably only two
persons know, if she actually did, so there's no way of determining who's
speaking the truth, and no court of law in a constitutional state finds a
person guilty solely based on the accusations of the plaintiff. The
complete lack of evidence and independent witnesses is quite a common
problem when it comes to adults sexually abusing children.

Has any information here on the list actually revealed whether she has
claimed to have told the defendant, that she didn't want to have sex? I
don't remember.

Don't forget either that no matter how hideous the crime is, it's
always better to acquit a guilty person than find an innocent person
guilty. If we abandon that principle, we'll soon all be living in a police
state, where we are all guilty until we have proven ourselves innocent.
Two crimes instead of one doesn't award justice to anyone. Sentencing
someone still won't undo the crime either.

I would also like to say that in my opinion, the news media usually
manages to distort any information they get their hands on. It never
ceases to amaze me how incompetent they are when it comes to reporting the
facts truthfully. Most of the time they can't even get the names of the
persons they interview correct. The strive to be first seems to override
any effort to be correct. Reading about it in the news media certainly
doesn't provide enough information of adequate quality to pass judgement
on anyone.

I expect to be flamed to a crisp for voicing these opinions, but
nevertheless they deserve to be put forth in my opinion. Too often the
call for "law and order" is heard from people who actually think it's a
solution to the increasing numbers of crimes and the increasing
hideousness of crimes. These are the same kind of people, who shout for
censoring of the internet. Let's not become part of this choir singing the
praise of oppression.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 96 09:30:57 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Assuming the woman's surname.
Message-Id: <199605240729.JAA08321@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 23 May 1996 23:49:59 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

here. I especially admire the fact that David has taken Christine's
last name, which to me spells 'commitement' and a willingness to
walk the walk. :)

A friend of mine and his girlfriend got married a couple of years ago,
and chose my friend's name (the man's name). I was suprised by this, since
his surname is a very common one in Sweden, while her surname is a very
uncommon one, and I had expected them so opt for her surname. He said that
her surname was an assumed name. I.e. it was not a family name originally,
and that's why they chose his name. A lame excuse, if you ask me :). I
didn't press the issue though :).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Everybody knows, that the
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | best nuts come from
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | California.
|Sweden | | -Sunkist
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:36:41 -0400
From: Sarah611@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-ID: <960524093640_308942079@emout07.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-05-23 23:22:55 EDT, you write:

I admit I didn't know this was a consensual situation, but I still say
she is twelve, and I don't care if she strips and begs for it in Macy's
window at rush hour. I am a mother with children, and twelve is
twelve. Since when is a twleve year old girl child more responsible
than a 24 year old man?
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but don't you think this whole incident
contradicts the quote from Shakespeare? After all, wouldn't most agree that
sex between adults and 12 year olds is bad in and of itself? I agree with
the general sentiment of tolerance expressed by this quote, but it seems to
me there are certain things that are wrong regardless of my opinion of them.

Sarah

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:13:10 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 24 May 1996, adnyb wrote:
Welcome Len, please let us here more from you. Are they still burning
witches in Salem?

They never burned witches in Salem, OR - it was in Salem, MA - miles and
years apart, since OR didn't get "settled" by European transplants until way
after the witch trials
They never burned witches in Salem, MA either :^) They were a humane and
just group of zealots and hanged their witches (Although one was pressed to
death). It was the Spanish that burned the witches

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:39:18 -0700
From: Sene Giln
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: ?;^
Message-ID: <31A5F446.7292@interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

man
You are coum to thee bitter end ov your degredation
Drain thee dregs
And leave not a stain in thee glass
For war
war is upon you
war
war around you and within you
You are submerged in war
So totally now
There is no escape
Like a cancer it has taken hold of you
It has crept stealthily among you
And been entrenched
No force on Earth can remove it
And no force in heaven will
For we
Thee Spirits
Give man what he demands
We do not give what E pretends to want
And man puts on airs and cries
Screams
Begs for peace and LIGHT
And E claims that E desire
Is to live in harmony
Yet E sees no woman a mirror
And E sees no CHILD
And E sees self in a mirror
And E says "E am civilised"
And E am in control
And E am an ignorant fool
And E am a hypocrite
And E am stupid
And E am just part ov this war
And all men really want is death
Slaughter
Bloodshed
Rape
Pillage
Violent, hysterical, screeching, lunacy ov war
And that is E true desire
And nothing less will satisfy E
man
See your horror
See your lust for blood
See death stride upon thee Earth
death as a man takes E toll
And when is your MIND at peace
In this jigsaw
And when is your body at peace
When it's at war
And this is your destiny
This is your only satisfaction
man
You are born to die
And die you must
And death for you must be utterly cataclysmic
man you are just a jigsaw
man you are just
This war
And you stand for war
And you glory in war
man
E say
You are war

In thee beginning there was war
And after
There was war
And then
There was a jigsaw
And E did shed blood
Destruction ov Woman
Our own kind
Our throne MIND
E have sanctified war
And man shed thee blood ov woman
And Woman shed our own blood
In L-O-V-E
Man
E gave thee a law
A poor law
A jigsaw
For Woman is sacred
Must not be destroyed
An eye for an eye
In the spirit ov war
And man
Heeds not my warning
Has rejected my Word
NOW is thee TIME for your humiliation
NOW must man eat dust
Man is owed no-thing but pain
Owed no-thing but death
Owed no-thing but humiliation
Owed neither L-O-V-E
Nor respect
Neither L-if-E
Nor happiness
Crawl on grazed knees towards thine empress
Woman
For what mercy is left thee

These words can be heard rendered voice: Towards Thee Infinite Beat
c genesis p-orridge 1990
p Complete Music 1990

*I have looked behind my eyes to the core of my being only to be
conquered.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 08:20:36 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Message-Id: <199605241520.IAA21869@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

Patricia wrote:

she can say yes till the cows come home...she is a twelve year old
child and cannot give that kind of consent....besides..what was it
doing in court if she was so consensual....24 year old men do not
"fuck" 12 year old children....now if she had been a boy...of 12, who
supposedly gave consent...it would have been an "unnatural act" and
the guy would have been hung.

So true! I'm all for consensual acts, but pick on somebody your own
size! I feel different about 2 twelve-year-olds turning to one
another...jail would be out of the question in a case like that. But
grown men must be required to keep their cotton-pickin' hands off of
little kids *world wide*. I don't want to hear this baloney about
cultural differences...they use that one to justify genital mutilation
and heaven knows what else.

I think the parents did right to try to nail this guy. I mean, the kid
is a minor child and still their responsibility...did *they* consent to
having this bozo play tickle games with their little darling?
Obviously not.

--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 11:22:48 -0400
From: willow
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Message-ID: <31A5D448.55753B38@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:

I think the parents did right to try to nail this guy. I mean, the kid
is a minor child and still their responsibility...did *they* consent to
having this bozo play tickle games with their little darling?
Obviously not.

--

Well, in my humble little fantasy world, had the parents consented to
this act, they would be standing in the bar right next to the perp!

semper servis,
willow

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 08:29:41 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Message-Id: <199605241529.IAA29229@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com

imagine that sixteen year old nymphet with bleached
blonde hair, 36-23-35, two tattoos and a piercing, pack of Marlboros
in one hand, pack of condoms in the other, who has been sexually
active with men, women, animals, and furniture for three years.
(Florida has more than a few). Is she capable of consent? Does she
need that absolute protection?

When I was 16 I had already given birth to one kid. I was sexually
active. I was also a kid who knew nothing about birth control, and was
given drugs by older boys and men who then would pressure me to have
sex. They then would not see me anymore. They never asked my age,
although once when I called the police because a guy I just met was
pressuring me to have sex (after giving me mescaline) he said, "That is
something a 14 year old would do!" He was right, I was 14.

Well, she sure did three years ago when some criminal despoiled her.
But what about the innocent 21 yoa roofer who believes her when she
says she's 19 and she does him in the cab of his Ford Ranger? Should
he do 8 to 15 in Ted Bundy's old cell?

I dare to dream of a world where men inquire a bit more closely into
the facts about their sex partners than to ascertain whether or not
they seem willing. At least some guys care if you are willing...I
suppose we should be grateful for this. :/
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:29:26 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: My .sig (Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-Id: <199605241629.JAA09686@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)
Sarah wrote:

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but don't you think this whole
incident contradicts the quote from Shakespeare? After all, wouldn't
most agree that sex between adults and 12 year olds is bad in and of
itself? I agree with the general sentiment of tolerance expressed by
this quote, but it seems to me there are certain things that are wrong
regardless of my opinion of them.

So is there an absolute good and bad? I dunno. Certainly the sun
shines on everybody, good and bad alike. I know what *I* think is
right and wrong. I'm not advocating tolerance with my .sig as much as
trying to point out that how you think makes a difference. Some people
think that it's good for guys to have a free hand to sex it up with
anybody and, obviously, I disagree with that so-called thought.

Also, thinking is the beginning of transforming bad into good. The
mind moves the hand: nothing will get better if we don't first think,
and then act.
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:42:39 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Witch homicides
Message-Id: <199605241642.JAA05950@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

Are they still burning witches in Salem?

They never burned witches in Salem, MA :^) They were a humane and
just group of zealots and hanged their witches (Although one was
pressed to death). It was the Spanish that burned the witches.

Yes, millions of mostly women and children (and a few token men) were
murdered and massacred for *being witches*, whether they were or not.
It was not cute.

St. Joan of Arc was burned to death in a humiliating public execution
by the English, I believe.

I think the Spaniards were most famous for the tortures that they used
to extract confessions.

In France, a would be church reformer Pierre de Bruys was burned for
decaring that "God is no more in the church than in the marketplace."

The dreadful reign of terror that spanned centuries and even left it's
filthy stain on the New World was a program to suppress opposition to
the Church. Decendants of the witch hunters are active yet today, and
in many ways are still as fanatical and dangerous.
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:56:35 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Poetry corner :)
Message-Id: <199605241656.JAA10826@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

Hystery

In my silent reverie
A vision of ages appeared to me:
A giant woman, stretched to the sky;
Huge breasts, blocking the sun;
As deep as hades her belly button;
Huge thighs, forested: hairy.
Climbing upon this mammoth,
Tiny men like mites or fleas:
Fighting, playing, breeding;
Feeding, by piercing the skin;
Hiding, by burrowing in.
Too small to see the woman whole,
Knowing only the use of the blood and skin;
The forest of hairs;
The tides of the eye.


--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 18:30:47 +0100
From: newworld@dircon.co.uk (a new world)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: She fucks (12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Andrew wrote:

whenever you
allow discretion you allow judgement calls, which are made by judges, who are
human and imperfect.

.......and male???

How many judges are Women? What proportion of the legal profession is made
up by Women?

Here in UK too few and too little.

Incidentally a couple of years back our Director of Public Prosecutions
(not a judge admittedly) got caught and cautioned by police for "street
crawling" (checking out the street prostitutes) in Kings Cross in London.
This was a man in one of the most senior legal positions in our country
(the mother of Parliaments!!) exploiting some of the poorest, most
uneducated and most vulnerable Women in Britain.

During the day he would prosecute them (and the spanner people by the way)
and at night purchase sexual services at prices that for a man in his
financial position would have been equivalent to buying Kleenex.

The Kings Cross area of London is full of homeless run-aways, young people
from all over the country (often in the age group under discussion) who
finance their drug addiction through street prostitution. It is a well
known "red light" area. The sexual acts purchased are carried out in cars
or street corners.

It came to light he was a regular customer in this area. In the ensuing
publicity he resigned.

The following year his wife committed suicide.

What a sad world we live in.


Deep Respect

ian
newworld@dircon.co.uk
London


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #71
***********************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:
Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Kid prostitutes
Re: Kid prostitutes
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Re: Kid prostitutes
Judicial revenge/whats cool about being male
Protecting kids
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Re: Protecting kids
Relevant threads
Bonhoeffer and Niemoeller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:55:35 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Message-ID: <31A62247.6D4F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

RIGHT ON WILLOW!!!!!
Patricia

willow wrote:


Well, in my humble little fantasy world, had the parents consented to
this act, they would be standing in the bar right next to the perp!

semper servis,
willow

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 07:32:06 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Kid prostitutes
Message-Id: <199605251432.HAA08091@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

During the day he would prosecute them (and the spanner people by the
way) and at night purchase sexual services at prices that for a man in
his financial position would have been equivalent to buying Kleenex.

"We will fight them on the beaches, but we'll lose between the sheets!"

Ok, so, we've got kids running away from home all the time, and they
aren't mature enough to obtain a regular job, so what makes anyone
think they are mature enough to choose the challenging career of
street-corner suck artist? If a guy gets a twelve-year-old boy or girl
to consent to a $20.00 blow-job, and the parents complain, saying, "I
didn't raise my tiny darling to be your slop-jar!" *I* think they have
a point! *I* think that 12 is too young to be empowered to be making
such life decisions.

WHY the kid runs away or becomes sexually active must be looked at. I
personally met one runaway boy (when I was a runaway myself) who had
been dressed up like a little girl and prostituted *by his own father*
since he was (get this) 6 years old. He was 14 when I met him...that's
a lot of semen under the bridge, y'all.

He ran away, wandered the streets, eating out of dumpsters, until a
hippie couple who were dumpster-diving for cans and bottles got his
story from him. They took him home and he had been living with them
for a few months. They treated him like a kid, and he loved it. He
did not crave his old life: he lived in dread of being returned to his
father. Therefore this lovely couple and their foundling lived a
double life, like spies, telling everyone the kid was their son, and
he's loving it, because it's the most wholesome thing he's ever known.

I was seventeen and already had given birth to a kid (that was taken
from me and given up for adoption) when I got arrested for
prostitution. Get this: I never turned a trick. I had been pressured
by some arressive guy I'd met into trying it, in exchange for being
allowed to stay at his place (I was a runaway, had no money, needed a
place to sleep.) The first guy I successfully reeled in turned out to
be a cop! I was embarassed, but relieved. I got a place to sleep
(jail), meals, and I was free of that creep pimp...but I lost all my
stuff, because I never dared go back to the pimp's house to get them.
Once I got out of jail, I had no money, *no clothes*, and no place to
sleep...but at least I was sure I didn't want to try prostitution. So
I got a job babysitting for a houseful of junkies...(another story...).
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 07:45:15 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes
Message-Id: <199605251445.HAA23160@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

The Kings Cross area of London is full of homeless run-aways, young
people from all over the country (often in the age group under
discussion) who finance their drug addiction through street
prostitution. It is a well known "red light" area. The sexual acts
purchased are carried out in cars or street corners.

Glamourous, eh, what?

Kids don't consent to being prostitutes...they are driven to it. When
you are talking about child prostitutes, you are talking about lives of
misery, humiliation, hardship, privation, pain, desperation, and
terror. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

I believe that when you are talking about sexually active children who
are not prostitutes, you are talking about kids who don't understand
that they have a choice. They might consent, even be actively
desireous, but what does that mean? Would they consent if they weren't
being pressured and tempted by sophisticated adults?

If the law recognises that an adult can be unfairly tempted into a
crime (entrapment) then it must understand that kids can be unfairly
tempted and seduced into "consenting" to sex.


--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:10:05 -0400
From: Andrew
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Message-Id: <31A722CC.202E@packet.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 3234

Once again, Laura Goodwin has with courage, grace, and dignity shared some
of her life experience with us about how she coped with early exposure to
sexuality. As always, I wish to make a deep bow in her direction. It is
obvious how deeply she feels about these issues. But, the application of
government to sexuality, which kicked off this thread (12 yo girl fucks, so she
deserves to be raped, etc.) is a difficult problem. We in this group are by
definition folks that revel in our sexual freedom. We should be very wary of
allowing government to tell us what we can or cannot do in our bedrooms. I like
to reserve that privilege for a Mistress.

Meanwhile, the freedom to choose comes from the capacity to choose.
Children do not have the capacity to make such a choice. And just because they
have been previously victimized they do not automatically acquire maturity and
wisdom. Let's analyze this in terms of driving a car. You can drive a car, but
you have to be licensed; i.e. meet a certain minimum set of requirements before
you can do it legally. You need to have certain driving skills; you need to
demonstrate a rudimentary knowledge of driving laws; you need financial
responsibility (insurance). You also must be a certain age before the law will
accept the possibility that you have the capacity to handle the decisions involved
in driving. If you drive before you can be licensed, this is a criminal act. If
you have been convicted of driving before you have your license, the law does not
presume that you now are sufficiently mature to drive legally and exempt you from
the licensure requirement. Why is it that if you are involved in a sexual act to
which you do not have the legal capacity to consent, then you somehow magically
acquire the wisdom and maturity to consent the next time. All that says is that
by having your protected status violated you are now robbed of your protected
status for future events. As a victim, instead of being given more protection,
you are given less. This is not right.

I believe that each and every person that involves any child in a sexual
act should be prosecuted, regardless of whether the child has had previous sexual
experiences. If I sell alcohol to a minor, I am prosecuted. It is no defense
that the minor has purchased alcohol before. I'm just as guilty. If this
standard can be applied to Budweiser, than why not to sex.

Maybe we ought to have a sex license like a driver's license. You have to
be of age; you have to pass a written test regarding health, birth control, etc.;
there might even be a spot for certain medical tests to be reported. (I know this
gets into the AIDS confidentiality question, but I'm just musing here). You might
also be required to carry pregnancy insurance, so that if your sexual adventures
result in childbbirth the taxpayers don't have to bear the burden. No-fault
pregnancy?

andrew

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:29:51 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes
Message-ID: <31A7519F.4AF4@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It is not these children who are criminals it is the adults who buy
there services who are criminal.
patricia


Laura Goodwin wrote:

The Kings Cross area of London is full of homeless run-aways, young
people from all over the country (often in the age group under
discussion) who finance their drug addiction through street
prostitution. It is a well known "red light" area. The sexual acts
purchased are carried out in cars or street corners.

Glamourous, eh, what?

Kids don't consent to being prostitutes...they are driven to it. When
you are talking about child prostitutes, you are talking about lives of
misery, humiliation, hardship, privation, pain, desperation, and
terror. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

I believe that when you are talking about sexually active children who
are not prostitutes, you are talking about kids who don't understand
that they have a choice. They might consent, even be actively
desireous, but what does that mean? Would they consent if they weren't
being pressured and tempted by sophisticated adults?

If the law recognises that an adult can be unfairly tempted into a
crime (entrapment) then it must understand that kids can be unfairly
tempted and seduced into "consenting" to sex.

--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:56:28 +0100
From: newworld@dircon.co.uk (a new world)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Judicial revenge/whats cool about being male
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I saw the following accounts in this weeks "The Big Issue", a paper sold by
homeless people in London. I thought it might give a little light relief
after recent, very interesting but upsetting, discussion.

1) How to deal with judges who don't judge good.

.....Kenyan criminal Simon Habobe remained cool as a cucumber as he forced
a judge to dance naked at gun point. Mr Habobe, 32, was being tried for
armed robbery when, to general consternation, he produced a gun from his
shirt and leapt from the dock. "We thought he'd make a run for it," said
policeman Ernest Tote, "but he just pointed his gun at the judge and said
"Get your clothes off!" The latter wisely complied, stripping down to his
socks and shoes, whereupon he was ordered to stand on the table and "give
it a bit of dirty dancing", which, despite being 73 years old, he duly did.
"He was really going for it," reported an impressed Sergeant Tote. "We all
cheered him on and hummed 'Another one bites the dust' to encourage him."
The impromptu show came to an end when Mr Habobe was overpowered by court
clerks, and is now serving a 10 year sentence. "Judge or no judge, he was a
lovely little mover," said the unrepentant criminal.

2) Things that show its cool to be male??????

a) In Manchester a man has been banned from his local gymnasium for sucking
the toes of female weight lifters. "He waits till their bench-pressing,"
explained one eyewitness, "and then licks their plimsolls".

b) In Germany, meanwhile, citizens in Hanover are living in fear of the
Phantom Doorknob Sucker. Described as a "midget with big lips," the ghoul's
first victim was elderly spinster Edith Berger. "I arrived home from my
batik class," explained Mrs Berger, 83, "And found him gobbling my handle.
I said 'what are you doing, little man?' and he said "Feeding!" and run
away. When I touched my doorknob it was all wet and slippery." There have
been 17 further sightings, including four cases in which the culprit was
seen to vigorously kiss the keyhole. "People should keep their knobs under
24 hour surveillance opined one police expert.

c) ...in Melbourne a man spent two days wedged in a Xerox machine after
photocopying his bottom. Surveyor Hubert Kale, 36, had removed his trousers
and sat on the copier late one Friday evening with the intention of copying
his posterior as a joke. "The glass just gave way beneath me," recalled Mr
Kale, "and my bottom got wedged in the machine. Only my head and legs were
sticking out. It was agony". Despite frantic efforts he was unable to free
himself and remained thus until he was discovered by cleaners on Monday
morning. "He said he was trying to replace the toner cartridge," said one
rescuer. "Although why he was doing it without his trousers on is any
body's guess."




Deep Respect

ian
newworld@dircon.co.uk
LonFrom - Wed May 29 12:33:13 1996
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 72

Today's Topics:
Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Kid prostitutes
Re: Kid prostitutes
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Re: Kid prostitutes
Judicial revenge/whats cool about being male
Protecting kids
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Re: Protecting kids
Relevant threads
Bonhoeffer and Niemoeller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:55:35 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Message-ID: <31A62247.6D4F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

RIGHT ON WILLOW!!!!!
Patricia

willow wrote:


Well, in my humble little fantasy world, had the parents consented to
this act, they would be standing in the bar right next to the perp!

semper servis,
willow

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 07:32:06 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Kid prostitutes
Message-Id: <199605251432.HAA08091@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

During the day he would prosecute them (and the spanner people by the
way) and at night purchase sexual services at prices that for a man in
his financial position would have been equivalent to buying Kleenex.

"We will fight them on the beaches, but we'll lose between the sheets!"

Ok, so, we've got kids running away from home all the time, and they
aren't mature enough to obtain a regular job, so what makes anyone
think they are mature enough to choose the challenging career of
street-corner suck artist? If a guy gets a twelve-year-old boy or girl
to consent to a $20.00 blow-job, and the parents complain, saying, "I
didn't raise my tiny darling to be your slop-jar!" *I* think they have
a point! *I* think that 12 is too young to be empowered to be making
such life decisions.

WHY the kid runs away or becomes sexually active must be looked at. I
personally met one runaway boy (when I was a runaway myself) who had
been dressed up like a little girl and prostituted *by his own father*
since he was (get this) 6 years old. He was 14 when I met him...that's
a lot of semen under the bridge, y'all.

He ran away, wandered the streets, eating out of dumpsters, until a
hippie couple who were dumpster-diving for cans and bottles got his
story from him. They took him home and he had been living with them
for a few months. They treated him like a kid, and he loved it. He
did not crave his old life: he lived in dread of being returned to his
father. Therefore this lovely couple and their foundling lived a
double life, like spies, telling everyone the kid was their son, and
he's loving it, because it's the most wholesome thing he's ever known.

I was seventeen and already had given birth to a kid (that was taken
from me and given up for adoption) when I got arrested for
prostitution. Get this: I never turned a trick. I had been pressured
by some arressive guy I'd met into trying it, in exchange for being
allowed to stay at his place (I was a runaway, had no money, needed a
place to sleep.) The first guy I successfully reeled in turned out to
be a cop! I was embarassed, but relieved. I got a place to sleep
(jail), meals, and I was free of that creep pimp...but I lost all my
stuff, because I never dared go back to the pimp's house to get them.
Once I got out of jail, I had no money, *no clothes*, and no place to
sleep...but at least I was sure I didn't want to try prostitution. So
I got a job babysitting for a houseful of junkies...(another story...).
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 07:45:15 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes
Message-Id: <199605251445.HAA23160@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

The Kings Cross area of London is full of homeless run-aways, young
people from all over the country (often in the age group under
discussion) who finance their drug addiction through street
prostitution. It is a well known "red light" area. The sexual acts
purchased are carried out in cars or street corners.

Glamourous, eh, what?

Kids don't consent to being prostitutes...they are driven to it. When
you are talking about child prostitutes, you are talking about lives of
misery, humiliation, hardship, privation, pain, desperation, and
terror. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

I believe that when you are talking about sexually active children who
are not prostitutes, you are talking about kids who don't understand
that they have a choice. They might consent, even be actively
desireous, but what does that mean? Would they consent if they weren't
being pressured and tempted by sophisticated adults?

If the law recognises that an adult can be unfairly tempted into a
crime (entrapment) then it must understand that kids can be unfairly
tempted and seduced into "consenting" to sex.


--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:10:05 -0400
From: Andrew
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Message-Id: <31A722CC.202E@packet.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 3234

Once again, Laura Goodwin has with courage, grace, and dignity shared some
of her life experience with us about how she coped with early exposure to
sexuality. As always, I wish to make a deep bow in her direction. It is
obvious how deeply she feels about these issues. But, the application of
government to sexuality, which kicked off this thread (12 yo girl fucks, so she
deserves to be raped, etc.) is a difficult problem. We in this group are by
definition folks that revel in our sexual freedom. We should be very wary of
allowing government to tell us what we can or cannot do in our bedrooms. I like
to reserve that privilege for a Mistress.

Meanwhile, the freedom to choose comes from the capacity to choose.
Children do not have the capacity to make such a choice. And just because they
have been previously victimized they do not automatically acquire maturity and
wisdom. Let's analyze this in terms of driving a car. You can drive a car, but
you have to be licensed; i.e. meet a certain minimum set of requirements before
you can do it legally. You need to have certain driving skills; you need to
demonstrate a rudimentary knowledge of driving laws; you need financial
responsibility (insurance). You also must be a certain age before the law will
accept the possibility that you have the capacity to handle the decisions involved
in driving. If you drive before you can be licensed, this is a criminal act. If
you have been convicted of driving before you have your license, the law does not
presume that you now are sufficiently mature to drive legally and exempt you from
the licensure requirement. Why is it that if you are involved in a sexual act to
which you do not have the legal capacity to consent, then you somehow magically
acquire the wisdom and maturity to consent the next time. All that says is that
by having your protected status violated you are now robbed of your protected
status for future events. As a victim, instead of being given more protection,
you are given less. This is not right.

I believe that each and every person that involves any child in a sexual
act should be prosecuted, regardless of whether the child has had previous sexual
experiences. If I sell alcohol to a minor, I am prosecuted. It is no defense
that the minor has purchased alcohol before. I'm just as guilty. If this
standard can be applied to Budweiser, than why not to sex.

Maybe we ought to have a sex license like a driver's license. You have to
be of age; you have to pass a written test regarding health, birth control, etc.;
there might even be a spot for certain medical tests to be reported. (I know this
gets into the AIDS confidentiality question, but I'm just musing here). You might
also be required to carry pregnancy insurance, so that if your sexual adventures
result in childbbirth the taxpayers don't have to bear the burden. No-fault
pregnancy?

andrew

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:29:51 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes
Message-ID: <31A7519F.4AF4@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It is not these children who are criminals it is the adults who buy
there services who are criminal.
patricia


Laura Goodwin wrote:

The Kings Cross area of London is full of homeless run-aways, young
people from all over the country (often in the age group under
discussion) who finance their drug addiction through street
prostitution. It is a well known "red light" area. The sexual acts
purchased are carried out in cars or street corners.

Glamourous, eh, what?

Kids don't consent to being prostitutes...they are driven to it. When
you are talking about child prostitutes, you are talking about lives of
misery, humiliation, hardship, privation, pain, desperation, and
terror. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

I believe that when you are talking about sexually active children who
are not prostitutes, you are talking about kids who don't understand
that they have a choice. They might consent, even be actively
desireous, but what does that mean? Would they consent if they weren't
being pressured and tempted by sophisticated adults?

If the law recognises that an adult can be unfairly tempted into a
crime (entrapment) then it must understand that kids can be unfairly
tempted and seduced into "consenting" to sex.

--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:56:28 +0100
From: newworld@dircon.co.uk (a new world)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Judicial revenge/whats cool about being male
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I saw the following accounts in this weeks "The Big Issue", a paper sold by
homeless people in London. I thought it might give a little light relief
after recent, very interesting but upsetting, discussion.

1) How to deal with judges who don't judge good.

.....Kenyan criminal Simon Habobe remained cool as a cucumber as he forced
a judge to dance naked at gun point. Mr Habobe, 32, was being tried for
armed robbery when, to general consternation, he produced a gun from his
shirt and leapt from the dock. "We thought he'd make a run for it," said
policeman Ernest Tote, "but he just pointed his gun at the judge and said
"Get your clothes off!" The latter wisely complied, stripping down to his
socks and shoes, whereupon he was ordered to stand on the table and "give
it a bit of dirty dancing", which, despite being 73 years old, he duly did.
"He was really going for it," reported an impressed Sergeant Tote. "We all
cheered him on and hummed 'Another one bites the dust' to encourage him."
The impromptu show came to an end when Mr Habobe was overpowered by court
clerks, and is now serving a 10 year sentence. "Judge or no judge, he was a
lovely little mover," said the unrepentant criminal.

2) Things that show its cool to be male??????

a) In Manchester a man has been banned from his local gymnasium for sucking
the toes of female weight lifters. "He waits till their bench-pressing,"
explained one eyewitness, "and then licks their plimsolls".

b) In Germany, meanwhile, citizens in Hanover are living in fear of the
Phantom Doorknob Sucker. Described as a "midget with big lips," the ghoul's
first victim was elderly spinster Edith Berger. "I arrived home from my
batik class," explained Mrs Berger, 83, "And found him gobbling my handle.
I said 'what are you doing, little man?' and he said "Feeding!" and run
away. When I touched my doorknob it was all wet and slippery." There have
been 17 further sightings, including four cases in which the culprit was
seen to vigorously kiss the keyhole. "People should keep their knobs under
24 hour surveillance opined one police expert.

c) ...in Melbourne a man spent two days wedged in a Xerox machine after
photocopying his bottom. Surveyor Hubert Kale, 36, had removed his trousers
and sat on the copier late one Friday evening with the intention of copying
his posterior as a joke. "The glass just gave way beneath me," recalled Mr
Kale, "and my bottom got wedged in the machine. Only my head and legs were
sticking out. It was agony". Despite frantic efforts he was unable to free
himself and remained thus until he was discovered by cleaners on Monday
morning. "He said he was trying to replace the toner cartridge," said one
rescuer. "Although why he was doing it without his trousers on is any
body's guess."




Deep Respect

ian
newworld@dircon.co.uk
London


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 19:29:02 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Protecting kids
Message-Id: <199605251726.TAA08265@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree completely. Remember what one prominent German clergyman
said about his contrymen's attitude to the Nazis and their dismantling
of legal procedure (it was Dietrich Bonh=F6ffer):

=46irst they took the Jews away. But I did not try to stop it, for I am not
a Jew.

Then they took the Communists away. But I did not try to stop it, for I
am not a Communist.

Then they took me away -- and by then, there was no one left to stop it.

=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=
=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=
=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD

Just one piece of factual info: In the Scandinavian countries, the legal
age of consent is 15. But if *both* parties are under 15, it's legal. The
whole point of the law is to protext minors from sexual exploitation.

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:30:34 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Message-Id: <199605251830.LAA14104@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com

andrew wrote:

Why is it that if you are involved in a sexual act to
which you do not have the legal capacity to consent, then you somehow
magically acquire the wisdom and maturity to consent the next time.
All that says is that by having your protected status violated you are
now robbed of your protected status for future events. As a victim,
instead of being given more protection, you are given less. This is
not right.

Exactly! (Brilliant!) It's very like saying, she's not a virgin, so
now it's OK to rape her (or him).

Back in Biblical days, if a guy raped a virgin he had to marry her.
Oh, joy! I can just see the happy bride tripping down the aisle now!

I believe that each and every person that involves any child in a
sexual act should be prosecuted, regardless of whether the child has
had previous sexual experiences. If I sell alcohol to a minor, I am
prosecuted. It is no defense that the minor has purchased alcohol
before.

YES! YES!

Maybe we ought to have a sex license like a driver's license. You
have to be of age; you have to pass a written test regarding health,
birth control, etc.;

I think this is a fabulous idea. You could have commercial licensing
for pros, and pleasure licensing, and a special marriage license where
to get it you'd have to take home economics and parenting classes. :)
I do think you could have limited-rights sex license for teens that
would allow them to participate in organized educational and social
safe-sex seminars/celebrations. ;) I think they should have adult
supervision and guideance at first, but I don't think they need have
their first experiences with horny old grown-ups.



--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 20:02:35 +0000
From: Christine & David Stevenson
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960525200235.006c5b44@mail.telepac.pt
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I find in broad agreement with Andrew and his discussion of licensing.

Except that there should be some way of allowing a minor to get a driving
licence!

Some adults shouldn't be allowed on the road, and many children grow up quickly.

I am glad that Laura's story has a happy ending.

However, as a child I was actively in search of sex with anyone from about
the age of 6. Not that I knew what it was then! It didn't stop me
experimenting with brothers and sisters, older and younger over the next
four years. The experiments were pretty harmless and did not involve more
than the penetration of little finger tip and a lot of sniffing and looking.

I don't think I am exceptional in this regard. I have known several adults
who have opened up about their own childhood experimentation after being
told thius story. Many adults it seems continue to guiltily suppress these
secrets, perhaps for ever.

By ten years of age I pretty much new what it was all about, but couldn't
get any real women to take me seriously, can you blame them! At eleven I
knew a 13 year old girl who was having an affair with a much older man. She
was my heartthrob, but she wasn't in the slightest bit interested in an
immature snotty nosed schoolboy.

While I agree that any adult who took advantage of my search at six should
be severely reprimanded, by the time I was 14 I had smartened my act up. I
knew that if I was going to get a woman I would have to work on my image. I
was able to have identity papers made that would convince anyone I was 21.
(and I now looked it). But I was still a desperate virgin, but not for long!

I was a member of the darts team at our local village pub for two years
between 13 and 15. Drinking Pints of bitter with forty year old men on
Sunday lunch time. Should the Landlandy have been prosecuted? She would have
been if caught! However this came to an end when I confided to one of the
regulars my real age, and he told the Landlady. Thereafter I was only
allowed to play darts if accompanied by an adult and drank soft drinks. But
since Sunday lunch time was now a part of my social life I put up with this
irritation.

I was going to nightclubs, gambling institutions and generally having a
whale of a time. My parents were applying to the courts to try and restrain me.

I would hate the idea that any of the women (or men) with whom I had sexual
encounters at that tender age be prosecuted. I was a good liar, and none of
them knew I was under age until I decided to tell one or two after being in
the relationship for a good while. Several of them were mature adults, who
should have known better, (I can hear the courts say).

So, hard and fast rules, age limits etcetera leave a lot to be desired.

The various ages of consent for all the vices is currently the best system
we have. But there are loads of inconsistencies.

In England (I believe the law is much the same as when I left) you can smoke
at 16 and have sex. Yet you cannot vote until you are 18. You can drive a
motorcycle at a younger age than a car. (yet which is more dangerous?).

At the age of 14 my Mother confiscated a series of books I had purchased
that were largely educational. Sex manners for men, Sex manners for women,
and Sex manners for adult lovers. I had settled into a serious relationship
and wanted to give it my best!

After reading them my Mother admitted that she had learnt a lot, and even
managed to overcome her embarrasment and have a serious conversation about
sex. During which time I found myself acting as the guidance counsellor,
apparently she had never had an orgasm and only enjoyed it for the cuddle.

The police arrived at our house one evening and wished to talk to my parents
about the sexual relationship I was having with a minor. In those days they
had snoops in youth clubs, and one had heard the gossip about us. The girl
was just under 16, I too was still 15.

I shocked my parents by refusing to answer either yes or no to any of the
police questions. Their threats of charging me with various criminal acts
left me unimpressed and the sexual relationship continued albeit a little
more discreetly thereafter.

The battle with the authorities, schools, and my Father continued until I
left home and went to live in a railway hut. I lived there for a month, even
going to school in the daytime. My parents were frantic thinking I was a
runaway. No-one even thought to look at my school to see if I was still
attending.

Of course when it was discovered, I had to give up school to avoid being
taken into captivity. The railway hut was discovered the next night by
Railway Police (a separate force in Britain). There followed a chase across
country with me crossing rivers to throw the dogs off.

Eventually, I took to a life of crime to finance this precocious
independence, and this part of the story ends with my incarceration for over
3 years. After two escapes I was transferred to an adult Prison for which a
special court order was sort. (The judge complied with this request when I
told him that I would prefer it, as my battle had been about being accepted
as an adult.)

I realise that I was even then young, a child, and still had a lot to learn.
Granting me adult status would have been difficult, even were it the right
thing to do. But I maintain I was then old enough to decide quite a lot for
myself, not that it mattered any more, because by the time I was released I
was legally an adult.

My daughter at 15 involved herself in a political movement which wanted to
grant children more rights, and I even found myself disagreeing with her in
some respects.

So we come full circle. Was I becoming a staid old fuddy duddy of a Dad?
History does have a tendency to repeat itself.

The moral. Keep an open mind.

David Stevenson.

ps. I'm not sure how relevant any of these threads are to the alternative
lifestyle this group is about.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 15:24:33 -0400
From: Andrew
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Protecting kids
Message-Id: <31A75E71.769C@packet.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
content-length: 1305

timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:

I agree completely. Remember what one prominent German clergyman
said about his contrymen's attitude to the Nazis and their dismantling
of legal procedure (it was Dietrich Bonhˆffer):

First they took the Jews away. But I did not try to stop it, for I am not
a Jew.

Then they took the Communists away. But I did not try to stop it, for I
am not a Communist.

Then they took me away -- and by then, there was no one left to stop it.

≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠

Just one piece of factual info: In the Scandinavian countries, the legal
age of consent is 15. But if *both* parties are under 15, it's legal. The
whole point of the law is to protext minors from sexual exploitation.

TWolf

That was Pastor Martin Niemoller, and the entire quote (he mentions trade
unionists, etc.) is accurately reproduced on a moving poster available through
Northern Sun Merchandise in Minneapolis, Minnesota. They have an 800 number.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:07:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Relevant threads
Message-Id: <199605252007.NAA01242@netcom11.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1490


[David's candid and moving account of his early life, ending
with]

The moral. Keep an open mind.

Bang on, David. Otherwise we are in for some nasty surprises
(about ourselves). My own younger life was the exact obverse
of yours- I made all the right moves and had no sex at all- and
yet we we end up in very much the same place.

ps. I'm not sure how relevant any of these threads are to the alternative
lifestyle this group is about.

Totally relevant, because this group seems to be (after 18
months) as much about power and about culture and self-expression
as it does about anything else, 'alternative lifestyle' being
merely one (tasty) feature among many. The meta-issue or premise
here seems to be. 'Women have a better way for us all to live.'
So any discusson of power relationships (such as the one underway
about children) seems to me at least to be right at the core
of this group's stated business. But this place is, blessedly,
wide open to all _kinds_ of topics and outlooks.

Peace :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Bonhoeffer and Niemoeller
Message-Id: <199605252048.NAA03835@netcom11.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1949

timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:

I agree completely. Remember what one prominent German clergyman
said about his contrymen's attitude to the Nazis and their dismantling
of legal procedure (it was Dietrich Bonh=F6ffer):

and Andrew amended:

That was Pastor Martin Niemoller, and the entire quote (he mentions trade
unionists, etc.) is accurately reproduced on a moving poster available
through Northern Sun Merchandise in Minneapolis, Minnesota. They have
an 800 umber.

Both of these men are in a league with Gandhi and Martin Luther King,
and if more men learned from their lives (and deaths), we wouldn't
need a forum such as this one. They are what one Wise Woman friend of
mine called 'truly Erotic,' and crowned their careers with costly acts
of submission, not to an ideology, but to their consciences.

Niemoeller's elegant and haunting little paradigm on civil responsibility
has been widely adapted in recent times to address current issues. The
only quick lesson that can match it is John Donne's 'No man is an island'
meditation.

Note that all 5 people mentioned here are men. That should not dismay
anyone: What women are about to teach us in the next millenium or
so, now that they have reclaimed their voice (or Voice, as in Bene
Gesserit and Wise Woman/Wild Woman Voice) will transcend any good
thing we have learned so far. The next Zoroaster, the next Buddha,
the next Isaiah, the next Confucius, the next Woivoka, the next Gandhi
will be a woman. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #72
***********************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 74

Today's Topics:
Coed forums.
Laura Goodwin
Re: Sex Contracts
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Re: Coed forums.
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Sex Contracts
Re: Sex Contracts
Re: Sex Contracts
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Re: Gender/Languages
Past consent doesn't mean can't be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Re: Past consent doesn't mean can't be raped (12 Y.O. girl)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 96 07:49:20 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Fem. suprem."
Subject: Coed forums.
Message-Id: <199605270548.HAA14070@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It's my impression, that some women hesitate to speak up, when men too
are allowed on the list. Am I way off on this? What do the women, who do
post here, think?

If I'm right, it's a shame. I would really like to know, what they have
to say. It's a catch 22. I'll never find out what they'd say, if I and the
rest of the guys weren't here :(.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 02:38:09 -0400
From: paul@teleplex.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Laura Goodwin
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960527063809.0066ec4c@teleplex.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,

I've been on the list several days now and agree with Laura in everything she
has said so far, great list, I plan to stay tuned...Paul

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:26:47 -0400
From: Andrew
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <31A99F87.4662@packet.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 1116

Laura Goodwin wrote:

I would be happy to sign a contract that I consent to sex, and that I
would give head indefinitely at your command in return for the
privilege of serving you.

Marriage is a sex contract. So is hiring a whore. As a Mistress, I
have a sex contract with my slaves...I just wish it was legally binding
(no pun intended). :)

Well, in my professional opinion, it is just barely possible that so-called slave
contracts, if worded precisely enough, could be legally enforceable. You wouldn't
necessarily call them slave contracts, but possibly personal service contracts,
and include living arrangements, "Performance" specifications, the remedy of
specific performance, enough specifics to encompass the outline; enough vagueness
to get by... but then isn't it all voided by the safeword anyway???

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:34:21 -0400
From: Andrew
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <31A9A14D.17D@packet.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 1497

Tracey (Tel 4715 914 ) wrote:

Andrew wrote in reply to my post:

adults, can be unequivocal about what we are consenting to?

I still think it's silly to have contracts for sex. Not only do I have to pack
my drivers licence (in case I get asked for ID), my lipstick, money, keys,
condoms, but also a pen and a torch (tried reading in a nightclub?) and my
trusty contract for sex. Am I being too easy? Because I have a contract, am I
consenting to sex? Could you imagine the courts
being clogged by people who reneged on their sexual contracts? "This court
rules that you, Ms Smith, still owe and will pay to the defendant, one blowjob"
Silly yes?

And if I am drunk, does this rule the contract invalid?


If I agree to mow your lawn in return for a twenty-dollar bill, and I mow your
lawn, and then you refuse to give me the twenty, shouldn't I be entitled to sue?
And if I mow your lawn in return for the privilege of licking your ass, and I mow
your lawn, am I not just as morally entitled to my bargain? Which is more
important, twenty dollars, or the privilege of licking the ass of a goddess?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:26:58 GMT
From: Len Bounds
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Coed forums.
Message-Id: <199605271326.NAA20599@mailhost.worldnet.att.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 05:49 AM 5/27/96 +0000, you wrote:
It's my impression, that some women hesitate to speak up, when men too
are allowed on the list. Am I way off on this? What do the women, who do
post here, think?

Well as a male, i appreciciate being allowed to participate here. I am
lurking and
trying to particpate when i can, but want to be liked, so i'm careful so far in
what i say. I hope to think a real jerk would be kicked out..

Len

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:35:19 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-ID: <5614350928051996/A00789/DALEK/11A5E2630E00*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A5E2630E00

Andrew wrote:


lawn, and then you refuse to give me the twenty, shouldn't I be entitled to
sue?
And if I mow your lawn in return for the privilege of licking your ass, and I
mow
your lawn, am I not just as morally entitled to my bargain? Which is more
important, twenty dollars, or the privilege of licking the ass of a goddess?

Gawd, how can you answer that hyperthetical question? I couldn't see myself
being hauled in court by you, begging to lick... hang on, you probably would
8^)

Not convinced re contracts and licences for sex. Sure if I have sex publicly
every time, yep, they could probably police it, but behind closed doors? In
the privacy of my own home? Down that dark doorway round the corner? Get
real. And how about ratings? My ratings may be a hell of lot higher than my
intended partners. How are you going to rule on whether he/she performed to
her/his best capability? Silly topic.

Tracey

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 02:10:34 +0000
From: Christine & David Stevenson
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960528021034.00671248@mail.telepac.pt
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Andrew and Tracey seem to be having a good argument. But then I guess that
is what one of them wants.

Andrew's field is I understand Florida Law. But there might be a world of
difference elsewhere.

I quote from an article in Forum (UK) this month.

"Such a contract moreover would be unenforceable in the civil courts.
Courts are unwilling to compel parties to continue in a contract of
personal service against the will of one of them. Nor would a judge
enforce an arrangement which would require the court's supervision to
ensure that its terms were carried out. Apart from which agreements which
are contrary to good morals are illegal."

End quote.

(In the UK anything that smacks of SM is definitely and unequivocably
against good morals. I have a feeling that sex itself is against good
morals. Although for the life of me I cannot see why.)

By the way I think Forum(UK) is well worth a subscription. (not that I have
shares or anything - I believe Bob Gucione still owns all or most of it). It
is quite unlike the US version which I've picked up in aiprorts from time to
time. You should give it a look, it is run mostly by women and seems to be
the most well balanced mag I've ever come across. We've been subscribers for
15 years now, and look where it's got me.

Regards, David Stevenson.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:44:00 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-ID: <9813421428051996/A03249/DALEK/11A5E3AA0D00*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A5E3AA0D00

David wrote:

is what one of them wants.

I definitely wouldn't call it arguing. We are merely debating this sex
contract issue. Andrew and I have also discussed the anti-abortion and
contraception issue too. Privately though. Does it make you feel
uncomfortable when two people agree to disagree? I also thought this list was
an open forum with different views coming together. If it means I have to
agree with everyone on this list, well, I simply don't belong.

And perhaps with a opening quote like yours, of course you are not going to get
the hesitant females out there answering anything.

Tracey
Because I am a strong woman, does this make me offensive?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:09:10 -0400
From: StewSM@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-ID: <960528000909_205113039@emout12.mail.aol.com

No Tracey it makes you more of a women. After all, on this forum Women are
the one's in charge. That's what we're talking about.

StewSM

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:18:21 +0000
From: Christine & David Stevenson
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960528141821.0068d7a4@mail.telepac.pt
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tracey wrote

I definitely wouldn't call it arguing. We are merely debating this sex
contract issue.

Ok I guess I'll have to learn how to put smileys into my text so as not to
upset people. Tracey and Andrew are having a good debate. Is there such a
major difference? :)

Andrew and I have also discussed the anti-abortion and
contraception issue too. Privately though. Does it make you feel
uncomfortable when two people agree to disagree?

No. Did I give that impression?

I also thought this list was
an open forum with different views coming together. If it means I have to
agree with everyone on this list, well, I simply don't belong.

Of course it is not necessary to agree. I fail to see where I said that it
was. Perhaps the use of the phrase good argument was misunderstood. I simply
meant to suggest that you two seemed to be enjoying your discussions.

And perhaps with a opening quote like yours, of course you are not going to get
the hesitant females out there answering anything.

I apologise to all hesitant people and to everyone else if I have said
anything which puts you off contributing.


Tracey
Because I am a strong woman, does this make me offensive?

No. But maybe you take offense a little quickly? :)

Kind regards,

David Stevenson.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:20:39 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <9605280820.S686273880@houston.email.net

Tracey wrote in response to Andrew on the sex contract issue:
Because I have a contract, am I
consenting to sex? Could you imagine the courts
being clogged by people who reneged on their sexual contracts?
While this might not be "ironclad" in the arena of 'vanilla
relationships,' they would be pretty handy in FemDom relations.
The burden of evidence would, at least morally, be on the
male when confronted with the breaking of the contract by either
NOT fulfilling his obligations, OR by being too "insistent" that
his Female partner "come across" for him. Contracts have to have
teeth in them to make them useful.
bodie167@houston.email.net

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:26:53 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <9605280826.S686286589@houston.email.net

On Mon. MAy 27, SOMEONE (?) wrote in response toa Laura Goodwin post
:
Well, in my professional opinion, it is just barely possible that
so-called slav
e
contracts, if worded precisely enough, could be legally enforceable. You
wouldn
't
necessarily call them slave contracts, but possibly personal service
contracts,

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:42:19 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <199605281542.IAA29376@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com

so-called slave contracts, if worded precisely enough, could be
legally enforceable. You wouldn't necessarily call them slave
contracts, but possibly personal service contracts

Until very recently in the U.S., and in some parts of the world yet
today, *marriage* contracts=slave contracts, and as such were/are fully
enforceable.

No law is enforceable if it's not enforced, and custom can be enforced
as firmly as any law, legal or not. I say anything that society agrees
to and insists upon is a law, whether on the books or not, and no law
on the book is worth spit if nobody enforces it. Contracts are binding
agreements, and are as legal as far as you can enforce them with
society's sanction. You can't legally make an illegal agreement, but
what's legal is very fluid and subject to change, which is why I became
an activist...change the way people think and you take the first step
in changing the law, and social custom. Custom and law are not the
same...you have to work on both of them.
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:48:38 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Sex Contracts
Message-ID: <31AB4A86.6102@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and you can certainly enforce economic contracts. my submissive gives me
all his pay and I give him an allowance. He has signed an agreement
with no conditions to this. It is possible to take that to court. but
we don't need courts...(mostly male dominated) to make "our" laws be
enforced...do we now?
patricia

Laura Goodwin wrote:

so-called slave contracts, if worded precisely enough, could be
legally enforceable. You wouldn't necessarily call them slave
contracts, but possibly personal service contracts

Until very recently in the U.S., and in some parts of the world yet
today, *marriage* contracts=slave contracts, and as such were/are fully
enforceable.

No law is enforceable if it's not enforced, and custom can be enforced
as firmly as any law, legal or not. I say anything that society agrees
to and insists upon is a law, whether on the books or not, and no law
on the book is worth spit if nobody enforces it. Contracts are binding
agreements, and are as legal as far as you can enforce them with
society's sanction. You can't legally make an illegal agreement, but
what's legal is very fluid and subject to change, which is why I became
an activist...change the way people think and you take the first step
in changing the law, and social custom. Custom and law are not the
same...you have to work on both of them.
--
Laura Goodwin

" There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

(William Shakespeare)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:22:54 -0800
From: robertr@WK.COM (ROBERT RASMUSSEN)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

is
Tracey
really a woman?
I wonder.






___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:04:14 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Message-Id: <199605281701.TAA14197@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tracey
Because I am a strong woman, does this make me offensive?

No. But maybe you take offense a little quickly? :)


Please Tracey, here at least, you are respected by everybody. This
is the best point of the Net, that you are respected, irrespective of
sex, race, religion or ethnic group, as long as you do not prove, by
your own actions, that you do not deserve it. And, I think it is part
of netiquette that everyone should be given the benefit of doubt,
and that allowances should be made.

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:24:23 -0700
From: jet@nwlink.com (Jet)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Gender/Languages
Message-Id: <199605281724.KAA21447@montana.nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In german the moon is masculine and the sun is feminine, in italian and I
guess in spanish too, the moon is feminine and the sun masculine.

I think it is much the same way as we call ships, "she/her", etc. Wouldn't
that follow your line here?

This seems to be strange or even wrong, because the moon does not have any
sex but for humans s/he always had an iconic character, they ...l symbols, the
moon for the feminine principle and the sun ... give things genders.

So much of our English language has incorporated many other languages and
we do use many of the feminine-specific words for objects that I've always
thought of as masculine and vice versa.

I spend a lot of time reading, doing crossword puzzles and such for relaxation
when my work doesn't take over my time. I've always found the written/
spoken word very fascinating.

That maybe allows people to think a little more about their environment,
old cultures and history and the fact that there are at least two genders
on this planet.

I agree with this. People go through life in a mindless muddle, never really
thinking about the words they use, much less if there are two (or more--let's
not forget the hermaphrodites or transgenders) genders. If more people
were mindful, I don't think these issues would be understood in the same
way. What do you think?

But of course on the other hand WoMankind is a very complex thing, there is
no strict border between women and men, they are somehow different but
somehow they arent.

Except that WoMankind is superior... : P

Using neutral terms make people to objects, it reduces them to their
function, what maybe is good in the case of politicans and most other
public positions.

Yes, I would also agree with that and women in particular, have been used
and seen as objects for far too long.

But it is also beautiful to see and enjoy the differences.

If the differences were not there, there would not be the problems...we'd
all be one gender and that would be BORING, no?

This year we celebrated our FIRST (!) female captain (HauptMANN) in one of
our counties.

Wow...I think that was a really wonderful celebration. What a wonderful
first!

A year ago or two a very short message run through the papers: Somewhere in
Switzerland in a little town or village their government decided to only
use the feminine terms for their politicans.It was accepted by the (male)
majority and so this town or village suddenly became a womens town. :)
I have never heard anything about this since then and I dont know what town
it was, or if it true. So maybe some of our european people on this list
know anything about this?????????
An interesting experience, isnt it?

I think this is very interesting! I would also like to know if anyone of
you has
more information on this. It seems so Amazonian, especially in Europe. As an
aside, where were the Amazon Women from anyway?

Yes, it is fascinating how different languages are and how they point to
different views and impressions a culture, a society made in its/his/her
history.

So, true. I've dated men from other countries (India, China, South Africa)
and the way they treat women who have strength and personal power is
far different than the knowledgeable men in this group... Those 3 men
thought I was a "loose" woman because I talked about things that women
in their countries would never think of saying. No offense to anyone, these
were just my experiences with 3 separate men. I'm not making a reference
to any other men in their cultures/countries.

Jet

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's the risk you take if you change: that the people you've
been involved with won't like the new you. But other people
who do will come along. --Lisa Alther

Jet Tenley P.O. Box 25171
jet@nwlink.com Seattle, WA 98125-2071
Phone: (206)527-0492 FAX: (206)517-3038

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:28:00 -0700
From: jet@nwlink.com (Jet)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Past consent doesn't mean can't be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-Id: <199605282028.NAA13278@montana.nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

BRAZIL COURT RULING ON CHILD RAPE STIRS PROTEST - A decision by
Brazil's highest court to free a man convicted of raping a
12-year-old girl because it considered her promiscuous provoked angry
outbursts by feminist groups on Wednesday. [Reuters]

OK, let me see if I understand this correctly: A 12 year old girl who
may have consented to sex with someone loses the right to refuse anyone
ever again? Have I got that right? A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL whom the
court, in it's infinite wisdom, feels is sexually active may now be
considered anybody's, and you don't even have to be polite about it?

Is it just me, or does this kind of stuff make you mad enough to really
hurt somebody?

Laura--

It makes me angry to the point that I see red. It's like saying a woman
can't be raped by her husband whether she consents or not, or a prostitute
can't be raped because she has sex with people for a living. Is there n o
justice in the world?

Jet

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's the risk you take if you change: that the people you've
been involved with won't like the new you. But other people
who do will come along. --Lisa Alther

Jet Tenley P.O. Box 25171
jet@nwlink.com Seattle, WA 98125-2071
Phone: (206)527-0492 FAX: (206)517-3038

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 16:19:10 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Past consent doesn't mean can't be raped (12 Y.O. girl)
Message-ID: <31AB89EE.6793@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Only Dom justice and our day is coming.
patricia


Jet wrote:

BRAZIL COURT RULING ON CHILD RAPE STIRS PROTEST - A decision by
Brazil's highest court to free a man convicted of raping a
12-year-old girl because it considered her promiscuous provoked angry
outbursts by feminist groups on Wednesday. [Reuters]

OK, let me see if I understand this correctly: A 12 year old girl who
may have consented to sex with someone loses the right to refuse anyone
ever again? Have I got that right? A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL whom the
court, in it's infinite wisdom, feels is sexually active may now be
considered anybody's, and you don't even have to be polite about it?

Is it just me, or does this kind of stuff make you mad enough to really
hurt somebody?

Laura--

It makes me angry to the point that I see red. It's like saying a woman
can't be raped by her husband whether she consents or not, or a prostitute
can't be raped because she has sex with people for a living. Is there n o
justice in the world?

Jet

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That's the risk you take if you change: that the people you've
been involved with won't like the new you. But other people
who do will come along. --Lisa Alther

Jet Tenley P.O. Box 25171
jet@nwlink.com Seattle, WA 98125-2071
Phone: (206)527-0492 FAX: (206)517-3038

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 75

Today's Topics:
Re: Kid prostitutes/Statutory Rape - Sex Contracts
Women as objects.
Poverty, Chastity and Obedience
Let Clear Some Stuff Up
Re: Poverty, Chastity and Obedience
Designing legally binding "slave" contracts.
Re : everything
Let Clear Some Stuff Up
Re: Let Clear Some Stuff Up
Pardon me?
Re: 12 Y.O. girl, 24 Y.O. guy
Castration (was, "She fucks, so she deserves to be raped (12 Y.O. girl)")
Re: Let Clear Some Stuff Up
Re: call congress free and screw the relig right