I wrote:
By the way, Bernardo's wife, who was actively involved in his crimes, was
given 12 years because she testified against him. She is eligible for day
parole as early as next year.


I should have mentioned that she plea-bargained for the sentence before it
came out in the trial that she was an active participant. If the
authorities knew beforehand of her involvement, she obviously would have
received a harsher sentence. .... sorry.






the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 06:37:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Males walking ahead (was Re N.Americans, was Re Holidays)
Message-Id: <199606251337.GAA28026@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura wrote:
I feel that if men walk ahead, that's it's to clear the path for the
women.

Hey! *beams* This is a role I can do! Path Clearer, Trail Blazer,
Advance Scout, Forager! At last, a fitting vocation for those males still
uncivilized enough to -like- their aggressive, unsocial sides and have no
desire to get rid of those traits - just to be running with / ahead of a
more matriarchal pack. But someone else can be the official "Male Mine
Detector"

Besides, if there's hostiles up ahead, while the women can no doubt fight
their own battles, why not let the men be the ones to pick up the scars?
We're the ones what tend to boast of them. ;)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:11:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Males like beasts (Was Re Ymeretool thanks Ms Patricia)
Message-Id: <199606251411.HAA00899@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ymeretool wrote:
Women are the more evolved part of the human species
and we males are more like the beasts. we males must
never be ashamed to acknowledge that fact. We must
always strive to be Womankind's best friend and to
teach other males their true place in nature and society.
meretool

I happily concede that Women are, in numerous ways, a more evolved part
of the species. Far from being ashamed of being more like the beasts, I
take a certain pride in it - better to be more like a wolf than a man, so
long's I am a friend of Womankind.

So far as teaching other males their place though.... Seems to me there's
a place in nature and society for all manner of males - the eloquently
sensitive type personified by Coyote Sings, the voice of reason such as
Timberwolf, those such as maidpaula who have pride, and are proud to serve,
the humble tools such as yourself, and yes, even male dominants & leaders,
so long as they too are friends of Womankind, and not merely domineering
agents of the malecentric patriarchal system.

What needs to be taught, sometimes forcefully, is that Women have a Voice,
that it's not okay to deny them that voice, or to treat them as any less
than equals, that it's not just acceptable for a woman to be strong and to
have a will of her own, but _good_. And to teach the real neanderthals
that it's not acceptable to be abusive or bullies, towards women, children,
Nature, or even men. Some means of teaching are friendly and peaceful,
but those don't always suffice; sometimes active opposition is the only way
to have any hope of obtaining their attention.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Even savagery has its place and its uses.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:43:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: Capitalization.
Message-Id: <199606251443.HAA05301@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Magnus wrote:
I managed to delete Chase's letter before I decided to comment. Stupid!

Anyway, it seems to me that you've overlooked a detail in your letter.
This is a female supremacy mailing list. Your letter seemed to exclusively
deal with female dominance. What you or anyone else choose to do about that
distinction is for the person in question to decideof course.

True enough - I basically wrote solely with regards to female dominance,
but there's a reason for that. In my eyes, the question / protocol of lower
case being used is solely a D/s issue, albeit not only femdom related. As
far as female supremacy, and in particular this list, goes, there isn't,
almost can't be, such a policy without reducing it to the FemaleSupremacy
flavor of (sexual) Female Dominance.

The reason I say this is that female supremacy, and this list, covers a lot
more than sexual dominance, males effacing themselves, and women being
treated/viewed as Queen/Goddess/Superior. Political issues, questions and
thoughts on how female voices and values can gain more representation in
government and corporate leadership, or how women can be encouraged to both
find and express their Voices, and men be encouraged to listen better....

Propounding a world in which all men are subordinate to all women, for ins-
tance, is a nice fantasy, a fantasy which many submissive men in particular
rather fancy. But that's all it is - short of global slaughter or the
development of some drug to be administered to all men that renders them
docile and meek, it isn't likely to happen, and probably shouldn't - among
other reasons, it reeks of the kind of authoritarian rule male dominated
civilization has attempted time and again.

Attempting to make the list adhere to an "I/i" protocol would probably drive
away many of the people it wants to reach - such as women who, while not
uninterested in the social/cultural issues, weren't fond of the more sexual,
femdomish things that come up on the list - such as the men posting with
lower case "I"'s, looking for dominants. (Someone actually mentioned this
happening with a few women they'd referred to the list, you'll recall)

Hence why I couldn't even think of the protocol matter in anything other
than female dominance terms.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, and ones of those who'd be gone with an 'i' rule.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- For some, it's a climb up to the gutter.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Inherited? (was Re Not Your Average Mom)
Message-Id: <199606251459.HAA06583@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jon wrote:
Incidentally, I've often wondered whether a predeliction for
BDSM is any way inherited. I can trace no event in my life to
explain why I feel this way, so could it be there genetically?
If so, who knows, in time it could be like Mother, like Daughter.

Mmm, I certainly hope not! We already get far too much passed on via
our genetic heritage, to the point where someone like me can't take much
pride or credit for my metabolism, physique, talents, or intelligence -
I'd hate to have to lay my personality traits at the foot of DNA's ladder
as well.

Not to mention that I know far too many people whose familial background
has no one else evidencing any signs of dominance or submission, sadism or
masochism. An' kids -do- tend to notice such things in their parents, no
matter how hard the parents try to hide it - hence so many BDSMers trying
to find a good way to explain things to their children.

I can't find any events in my life to explain why I'm the way I am either,
not in my environment -or- in my genetic inheritance. If I had to find a
cause for it, I'd be more inclined to attribute it to karma or reincarnation
- influences from a previous existence.

-- \_awless was : A Lady's wolf, in a prior life.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:55:02 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Uses for uncivilizable males in a femdom world (warning: humor)
Message-Id: <199606251755.KAA29744@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

I said that if men walk ahead of women it's to clear the path for them.

Lawless said:

Path Clearer, Trail Blazer, Advance Scout, Forager! At last, a
fitting vocation for those males still uncivilized enough to -like-
their aggressive, unsocial sides and have no desire to get rid of
those traits - just to be running with / ahead of a more matriarchal
pack. But someone else can be the official "Male Mine
Detector"

Besides, if there's hostiles up ahead, while the women can no doubt
fight their own battles, why not let the men be the ones to pick up
the scars? We're the ones what tend to boast of them. ;)

Yeah! Pain is fleeting, glory is forever, and scars are sexy! ;) That's
the spirit!

* Top ten reasons * why we need to keep at least a few savage males in
our utopian gynosupremist society:

10) Breeding: they produce faaaabulous amazonian daughters!
9) Fighters: If there is a real battle, we better have some real
battlers on our side, (and the males are more expendable).
8) Entertainment: If there are no battles we can put them in an arena
and have them fight each other for cash and faaaabulous prizes!
7) Pleasure: It's a fact: some women like it rough.
6) Diversity: These guys tend to be not boring. If there's no
excitement, they'll stir some up!
5) Terror: The threat of being compelled to "date" a room full of
them would serve as a useful deterrent for most other males.
4) Reward: The threat of being thrown to a room full of them would
serve as a useful inducement for _certain individuals_.
3) Decorative: they can be chained in stressful but attractive
positions and used as doorstops.
2) Educational: They can be hung up and used as targets for bullwhip
practice.

And the number one reason we need to keep at least a few of these
fascinating brutes?


:::::drumroll::::::::


1) In a word: MEAT. ;)


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:42:20 -0400
From: WQ2@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <960625144218_142661737@emout15.mail.aol.com

enjoyed ran out of time.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:46:16 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31D033F8.3C15@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

maid paula--

Lady Jet- Perhaps you can relate it to your daughter using a game analogy.
Talk to her about her favorite games and why she likes them, and how she has
fun and enjoys playing them with her friends. Then try to make the
connection that you have some favorite games you like to play also,
but they are adult games that make you and your play partner very happy.
Try to explain that they are very special games that are only played
in private between special friends. Tell her not to worry if she hears
any noises from mommy's room, it's just part of the game.

I think this is a very good idea... Thanks!

Also, it might help to have the relationship sub there when you talk to
her about this (if she wouldn't be too put off) to affirm that he/she loves
to play with you and you both care for her and each other very much.

I think she would be put off by this one... She is just coming into
puberty and sex is an off limits topic right now... Whenever she sees even
kissing on television, she goes: "IIIiiiiiickkkkkk!"

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:41:32 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thelma & Louise
Message-ID:

FE FEThelma & Louise
FE
FE ^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
FE ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead-
FE Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
FE pay anyway. I hated that.
FE CybErotiComm Online

FEHmmm - I rather liked the ending - I tend to find "happy endings" to be the
FEreal cop-outs. So far as them being manipulated, not in control - who, asid
FEfrom the rich & powerful, really -is- in control? IMO, they were strong
FEcharacters, who at least reacted against the brutality of the rapist and
FErejected the idea that they needed police/society to look after them, vice
FEeither accepting it quietly or simply reporting it.

FEEven in the end, they rejected the future, or lack of one, that was being
FEoffered them, by going out in style, together.

Quite frankly, I believe you have bought into the male-
dominated "crime-punishment" system. The ending was satisfying
to the male audience because while the women went "out in style"
they also "got what was coming to them" for defying male
dominance..."See girly, you can scream all you want, but you
gonna die anyway..."and it was satisfying to the semi-enlightened
FEMALE audience because they "reacted against..." Bullshit.
It wasn't even a BELIEVABLE ending! I have been a victim of
rape, abuse and this male-dominated society -- I *know*
how "they" think. The producers of the movie HAD to kill
Thelma and Louise or the movie would have been a box-office
failure.

FE"Cutthroat Island", with Geena Davis & Matthew Modine. Very light-hearted
FEescapist fare, but enjoyable. Geena, as a pirate leader, is smart, brave,
FEswings a mean fist and swordblade, and doesn't rely on any man to save her.

Sure. You have the answer within your text "light-hearted
*escapist* fare..." As long as she is a controllable FANTASY
(And please, subby men, do not tell me "oh, MY Mistress is no
Fantasy!" I KNOW that!) she is enjoyable and "cute." But
let your average good ol' boy run into her in the street and
she is dead.

I have BEEN there, my friend. I am she.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:50:58 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31D03512.1523@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David--

A divorced mom and daughter pose an interesting opportunity for a
submissive male. Along with doing everything needed to make life go
smoothly for the mum is the opportunity to be nurturing and respectful to
the daughter, who can be a tyrant in her own right. I don't know what harm
there would be in the young one seeing who is boss. IMHO, it is okay for
her to have her mother as a role model who can demonstrate saying no to male
demands for sexual gratification, because by Grade 9 it is pretty likely
that females will have had to withstand one or more forms of intimidation by
males. There may have to be a reservation of certain sights and sounds for
times when Mum has privacy - just as one would expect to find with a plain
vanilla mum.

Interesting perception. As long as direct sexuality stays out of the area of
children, I think the dominance part would work in this case. I've been
abused by my Step-Father (physically and sexually), so I am probably more
cautious about this than some women... It is interesting though...

Lady Jet

The issues around step parenting can all be negotiated in a context
of female supremacy.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:53:06 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Laura, Your Advice... (was Re: Not Your Average Mom)
Message-ID: <31D03592.2298@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Also, our own Laura Goodwin has dealt with this issue,
I'm confident she will chime in when she has the time.

Regards, Paul (maidpaula)

Good suggestion, Paul! I didn't know Laura had children.

Laura--

How do you work this out? Do you have a special play area?

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:41:21 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Inherited? (was Re Not Your Average Mom)
Message-Id: <199606251857.UAA07368@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:59:11 -0700 (PDT), Chase Vogelsberg wrote:

Mmm, I certainly hope not! We already get far too much passed on via
our genetic heritage, to the point where someone like me can't take much
pride or credit for my metabolism, physique, talents, or intelligence -
I'd hate to have to lay my personality traits at the foot of DNA's ladder
as well.

According to what I've read in the media lately (sorry, but I can't cite
an exact source), science is starting to reevaluate its position on how the
personality in humans is shaped. For some time most have agreed that an
infant child is more or less a piece of canvas waiting for its work of art,
but now, as knowledge of the significance of the genes, when it comes to the
personality traits, increases, scientists are becoming more and more
convinced that heritage has a much stronger influence on the personality than
has been known before. In a way that is positive, since it may enable us to
detect psychopathic disorders in the future, instead of putting such
individuals to death *after* they've already done their damage to society.

Not to mention that I know far too many people whose familial background
has no one else evidencing any signs of dominance or submission, sadism or
masochism. An' kids -do- tend to notice such things in their parents, no

Inherited characteristics can skip one or more generations.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #119
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 120

Today's Topics:
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Thelma & Louise
Re: Female Leads
Re: Female Leads
Hilary
Re: Thelma & Louise
Re: Hilary
Re: Holiday
Re: Holiday
Re: Advice...
Unsubscribe
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
leaving the list
Re: leaving the list
Re: leaving the list
Re: Not Your Average Mom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:00:18 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31D03742.1E0B@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

dennis--

First of all, it all depends on the *lifestyle* You intend to reflect. There
are of course many activities carried out in an *accepted* loving relationship
that parents would not expect to be witnessed by their children (unless it is
an extremely *open* household). Similarly, a great time can be had in the
bedroom by a bdsm twosome, without traumatising outsiders. Unfortunately, a
great deal of proactive explanations will have to be given to Your daughter
before chains, hoods and whips etc. are to be accepted as the day to day
household scenario. As You know, I had a very enjoyable D/s relationship with
a Lady in a busy office enviroment, without (I hope) anyone else having any idea
as to what was happening.

Very true...

Laura Goodwin describes in Her Home Page biography a very similar domestic
situation, and as a previous contributor suggested, a few good pointers will
no doubt be coming Your way from that illustrious Lady (if not already).

Have not heard from Laura yet, but hope to. I admire her immensely because
she already has her life set up in the Fem Supremacist way and I am now coming
to terms and decisions about it.

I am sure Your wonderful sense of humour and undoubted fortitude will ensure
a smooth path to Your chosen lifestyle, and as noted before, You may have even
endowed Your daughter with dominant traits that would take care of most of the
problem (and the world would be graced with another greatly needed Female
Supremacist).

It would be nice... One more for the group. ;)

Dennis (t.o.m)

PS
DR SEUSS was very funny - many thanks

You are most welcome... Funny computer poems only come by once in a blue moon.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thelma & Louise
Message-Id: <199606251948.MAA08121@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sorceress/CybErotiComm Online wrote, re my comments on "Themla & Louise":
Quite frankly, I believe you have bought into the male-
dominated "crime-punishment" system. The ending was satisfying
to the male audience because while the women went "out in style"
they also "got what was coming to them" for defying male
dominance..."See girly, you can scream all you want, but you
gonna die anyway..."and it was satisfying to the semi-enlightened
FEMALE audience because they "reacted against..." Bullshit.
It wasn't even a BELIEVABLE ending! I have been a victim of
rape, abuse and this male-dominated society -- I *know*
how "they" think. The producers of the movie HAD to kill
Thelma and Louise or the movie would have been a box-office
failure.

*chuff* Nope, I haven't bought into "crime-punishment", and I don't think
the women "got what was coming to them". I do believe in a "choice /
consequence" paradigm though - people can choose their course of action, so
long as they accept the consequences. In the movie, the two women choose
not to just accept the rape, they choose not to accept the law / government's
dominion, and they choose not to go to jail for their actions.

By the end of the movie, there was no possible ending that was both "good"
and realistically believable - unless of course the directors choose to
have the women surrender and cop an insanity plea, or perhaps, implausibly,
get off on a mistrial. Even if not for shooting the guy, which they -may-,
and -should-, have been able to be found innocent / justified for, their
actions afterward (blowing things up, for instance), were a totally different
matter. And, actually, you it wasn't believable as an ending? Propose one
that -was- believable, -and- happy, if you can.

Finally, I'd like to point out that you're insulting not just all the men
who enjoyed the movie, and I, for one, did -not- want to see the women "get
what was coming to them", but you're insulting all the women who did as well,
implying that they're only "semi-enlightened". An' stating that they (the
producers) thought they HAD to kill them or it'd be a box office failure is
pure conjecture, and again - implying a very low view of the viewers.

Re Cutthroat Island:
Sure. You have the answer within your text "light-hearted
*escapist* fare..." As long as she is a controllable FANTASY
(And please, subby men, do not tell me "oh, MY Mistress is no
Fantasy!" I KNOW that!) she is enjoyable and "cute." But
let your average good ol' boy run into her in the street and
she is dead.


So far as it being *escapist* fare, it is; doesn't mean that it's bad. I
personally wish a few "dommy" women would stop being so drop-dead serious,
not to mention presuming to know what was going through every man's head.
(yep, I take offense at the condescending air of "subby" as well, given the
tone of the rest of the post.) Not all men are your "good ol' boy" types,
if by that you mean the type who think women should be barefoot, pregnant,
and slapped back into the kitchen if they presume to leave it.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:12:49 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads
Message-ID: <31D04841.39EC@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

mike Lee wrote:

Jet,
Isn't Hillary Clinton currently having consultation with all these people
you mentioned?

Michael from Down Under

Mike--

I do not admire/like Hillary Clinton in the least... She is a
dishonest woman and I think she has done more damage than good
as far as the health care issues go in the States. I do not put
her in the same class as Indira Ghandi, Mamie Eisenhower or any
of the others.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:25:58 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads
Message-ID: <31D07586.58E@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think you have been reading and believing too much of what the
male-run press says about Hilary...have you read her book.
there is a lot of trashing of this woman, just because she is strong and
intelligent...the trashing of her .. shows just how deeply women hating
goes in this country.
Patricia

Jet wrote:

mike Lee wrote:

Jet,
Isn't Hillary Clinton currently having consultation with all these people
you mentioned?

Michael from Down Under

Mike--

I do not admire/like Hillary Clinton in the least... She is a
dishonest woman and I think she has done more damage than good
as far as the health care issues go in the States. I do not put
her in the same class as Indira Ghandi, Mamie Eisenhower or any
of the others.

Jet

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:44:54 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Hilary
Message-ID: <31D04FC6.2867@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noble wrote:

I think you have been reading and believing too much of what the
male-run press says about Hilary...have you read her book.
there is a lot of trashing of this woman, just because she is strong and
intelligent...the trashing of her .. shows just how deeply women hating
goes in this country.
Patricia

Patricia--

I didn't vote for Clinton... I never believed in their poliltics. I
wrote in my candidate because I read all the information on all the
candidates running and didn't like any of them.

I read about Bill and didn't agree with his politics, and I've heard
and read about Hilary (some of the information is directly from women
I know in the DC area), and I still don't like Hilary for the reasons
I noted above. Just MHO...

I also don't believe in the type of health plan Hilary is promoting...
But again, that's MHO. There has to be a better way, somewhere...

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:37:12 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thelma & Louise
Message-ID:

FE*chuff* Nope, I haven't bought into "crime-punishment", and I don't think
FEthe women "got what was coming to them". I do believe in a "choice /
FEconsequence" paradigm though - people can choose their course of action, so
FElong as they accept the consequences. In the movie, the two women choose
FEnot to just accept the rape, they choose not to accept the law / government'
FEdominion, and they choose not to go to jail for their actions.

So you think they "chose" to die? I reiterate, BULLSHIT!

FEBy the end of the movie, there was no possible ending that was both "good"
FEand realistically believable - unless of course the directors choose to
FEhave the women surrender and cop an insanity plea, or perhaps, implausibly,
FEget off on a mistrial. Even if not for shooting the guy, which they -may-,
FEand -should-, have been able to be found innocent / justified for, their
FEactions afterward (blowing things up, for instance), were a totally differen
FEmatter. And, actually, you it wasn't believable as an ending? Propose one
FEthat -was- believable, -and- happy, if you can.

No sweat. They escape. People REALLY do it ALL the time!

FEFinally, I'd like to point out that you're insulting not just all the men
FEwho enjoyed the movie, and I, for one, did -not- want to see the women "get
FEwhat was coming to them", but you're insulting all the women who did as well
FEimplying that they're only "semi-enlightened". An' stating that they (the
FEproducers) thought they HAD to kill them or it'd be a box office failure is
FEpure conjecture, and again - implying a very low view of the viewers.

Interesting, albeit testosterone soaked argument. Untrue,
as well. You cannot tell me what I *IMPLY*! Only *I*
can tell you what I MEAN.

FERe Cutthroat Island:
FE Sure. You have the answer within your text "light-hearted
FE *escapist* fare..." As long as she is a controllable FANTASY
FE (And please, subby men, do not tell me "oh, MY Mistress is no
FE Fantasy!" I KNOW that!) she is enjoyable and "cute." But
FE let your average good ol' boy run into her in the street and
FE she is dead.

FE
FESo far as it being *escapist* fare, it is; doesn't mean that it's bad. I
FEpersonally wish a few "dommy" women would stop being so drop-dead serious,
FEnot to mention presuming to know what was going through every man's head.
FE(yep, I take offense at the condescending air of "subby" as well, given the
FEtone of the rest of the post.) Not all men are your "good ol' boy" types,
FEif by that you mean the type who think women should be barefoot, pregnant,
FEand slapped back into the kitchen if they presume to leave it.

I do not expect you to "follow" my "logic." It is not
"logic," but *experience*. Additionally, I have no concern
for your feelings about"dommy" women. When you have walked
a lifetime in my pumps, then you can take offense.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:50:36 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hilary
Message-ID: <31D07B4B.3975@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Unfortunately it does come down to the "lesser of two evils"
politics...and this election year is worse. For whatever, bob dole says
about abortion...his wife LIBBY...has publicly said, that not only
should abortion be illegal, but the doctors and the women who have them
should be given the death penalty...or at minimum life in prison for
murder. you choose.
Patricia


Jet wrote:

Noble wrote:

I think you have been reading and believing too much of what the
male-run press says about Hilary...have you read her book.
there is a lot of trashing of this woman, just because she is strong and
intelligent...the trashing of her .. shows just how deeply women hating
goes in this country.
Patricia

Patricia--

I didn't vote for Clinton... I never believed in their poliltics. I
wrote in my candidate because I read all the information on all the
candidates running and didn't like any of them.

I read about Bill and didn't agree with his politics, and I've heard
and read about Hilary (some of the information is directly from women
I know in the DC area), and I still don't like Hilary for the reasons
I noted above. Just MHO...

I also don't believe in the type of health plan Hilary is promoting...
But again, that's MHO. There has to be a better way, somewhere...

Jet

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:55:16 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-ID:

FE FEThelma & Louise
FE
FE ^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
FE ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead-
FE Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
FE pay anyway. I hated that.
FE
FE I agree, but the ending struck a very deep chord within me---it
FEseemed to be an extension of the best of the Greek tragedies. They
FEwent down in flames but they went together, and the handholding is
FEsomething I will never forget.
FE There will always be room in literature (and movies) for
FEtragedies. My feeling is that they should serve as vehicles for motivation
FEinstead of resignation.

Interesting that only men thought the ending was appropriate.

Greek tragedies were written by men, to enforce social
values that further enslaved women--whose status, was
no better than "slave" or "foreigner."
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:03:22 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-ID: <31D07E4A.4425@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I agree with everything sorceress/CybErotiComm has said on this issue.
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FE FEThelma & Louise
FE
FE ^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
FE ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead-
FE Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
FE pay anyway. I hated that.
FE
FE I agree, but the ending struck a very deep chord within me---it
FEseemed to be an extension of the best of the Greek tragedies. They
FEwent down in flames but they went together, and the handholding is
FEsomething I will never forget.
FE There will always be room in literature (and movies) for
FEtragedies. My feeling is that they should serve as vehicles for motivation
FEinstead of resignation.

Interesting that only men thought the ending was appropriate.

Greek tragedies were written by men, to enforce social
values that further enslaved women--whose status, was
no better than "slave" or "foreigner."
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 14:45:49 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Advice...
Message-Id: <199606252145.OAA26353@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

Laura--
How do you work this out? Do you have a special play area?

Jet

I do have a dungeon playspace in the basement, but we are as likely to
play upstairs.

Bruce and I like to get rowdy when we play, and we are pretty verbal,
so we only play when the kids are at school (summer camp) AKA a nooner,
or we get the kids over to a friend's house. Or we leave the kids home
and go to a friend's to play. :)

We also have quiet things we can do, for example, Bruce can be required
to wear women's panties, or a butt-plug, or a diaper under his clothes.
Once the kids are asleep we do get into some quiet bondage/torture,
etc. (when we are not too tired ourselves).

Lately I have been requiring Bruce to sleep in a slave bed in the
basement, so I can stretch out in my queen size bed upstairs. This
works out pretty good for both of us. If I'm in the mood for sex, we
have sex, then off he goes to his bunk in the dungeon. :)

I think how you work this out is a personal matter, and your solution
will have to be tailored to your situation.
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:15:32 -0500
From: Vic McLendon
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <31D07314.2323@mail.cscdata.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Please drop me at this time. I enjoyed it, but don't have the time.

Thanks,
VM

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-Id: <199606252326.QAA00498@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2328

peter wrote:

Actually this begs some questions (and please don't think I'm being
sarcastic or downgrading someone else):
But, do most dominant women want a man who will put them on a pedestal, or
a snivelling wimp?

I can't think of much of anything I would confidently say _most_
dominant or femsuprem women want.

Should this man be confident and aggressive when in public and a snivelling
wimp in the woman's presence?

I see a lot of negativity in this phrasing. I don't go for
"aggressive," because to me that means more pushy/snotty than it might
mean to you. I don't want the guy trying to tell me what to do in
public, being rude to my friends, or just in general trying to assert
his "manliness" over other folks. That's what "aggressive" means to
me.

Also, your use of "snivelling wimp" seems, to me, negative. Some
women do want a fellow who will simply do what he's told and not
rebel, etc. That's their right. I tend to want in between...someone
who can think and act on his own, will generally do what he's told,
especially when I'm not in the mood to deal with uppity bull just
because someone wants to be "punished." Once again, there are folks
who enjoy this, but I don't tend to do punishment as a game...when I
use "punish" I mean "I know you're not going to like this, perhaps
you'll learn your lesson."

I also want someone who will share his opinions/feelilngs when
appropriate. I find it tedious to have to make every decision. He's
got a perfectly good mind, I want him to use it. :)

Or should the man be confident and self-assured at all times, even when he
is with the woman?

Once again, this depends on the woman. Personally, when I'm taking
full control, I want to feel he's enjoying it, but I don't want him
acting like I'm only in control because he's "letting" me be. If
confident and self-assured is an inner feeling of peace, then yes,
that's what I want. If it's an outer projection to protect the ego
and results in a lot of attitude and uppitiness, I don't go for that.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:29:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: leaving the list
Message-Id: <199606252329.QAA00514@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 645

A number of people have been trying to post to the list to unsubscribe
again, so it's time for my repost on how to leave this mailing list.

To unsubscribe from the femsupremacy mailing list, write to

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

subscribe

and nothing in the body.

If you're on the digest, it's

femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 21:13:36 -0400
From: Mitch847@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: leaving the list
Message-ID: <960625211335_339606945@emout16.mail.aol.com

Dee-Ann wrote -

A number of people have been trying to post to the list to unsubscribe
again, so it's time for my repost on how to leave this mailing list.

To unsubscribe from the femsupremacy mailing list, write to

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

subscribe

and nothing in the body.

If you're on the digest, it's

femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com

Hadn't that better be "unsubscribe" for the subject?

Mitch "sheesh--everyone's an expert"
G.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 18:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: leaving the list
Message-Id: <199606260122.SAA00588@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 810

Mitch847@aol.com wrote:

Hadn't that better be "unsubscribe" for the subject?

Yipes, yup, you're right. I have people writing me constantly to be
added to the list, so I kind of reflexively type subscribe. Glad
someone caught it, or we'd have very confused folks. ;) The _proper_
procedure is:

To unsubscribe from the femsupremacy mailing list, write to

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

unsubscribe

and nothing in the body.

If you're on the digest, it's

femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:32:21 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <199606260227.CAA10415@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Dear Lady Jet, and all Fem Supremacists,

However, I would like someday to have a relationship in the bdsm
area, and I am hard put to figure out how to incorporate my
lifestyle

Looking at the problem logistically. The answer appears to
be in your letter.

Having a daughter who is now 12 yo and spends about 4 days every
other week with her father

Of course it depends on the fantasies or roles you wish to enact. But
it would seem possible for there to be an underlying knowledge of the
fem-dom nature of a relationship between you and your prospective
partner. This can remain hardly spoken of. Discipline can be
administered at set times planned well in advance. In the interim
punishment books can be kept.

For example I could envisage a situation where one could order, "Go and write
that you were rude in your book this instant," to a husband.

Your daughter might chirp up, "What book?"

You might answer, "It helps him to be more polite if I tell him to write
it down when he is bad mannered."

The act of writing it in the book can be almost as exciting as
bending over there and then. The anticipation is greater.

It takes a little imagination and understanding of the respective
fantasies that both parties wish to indulge in. But such 'work
arounds' can be stimulating and make for real life ongoing fun.

For tips more relevant to your own fantasies drop me a line if you
like and I'll see what stirs in the kinky depths.

More generally, imho kids know when something is being hidden
and work out their own reasons for it. Which may be strange.

It is better if one encourages honesty and openness and is
prepared to answer all questions that might come up. Then when you
are lucky and the worst ones don't, you get the happy ending. If
however your daughter turns around one day and says, "Why is there a
pair of handcuffs under your bed?" Be prepared to give her a calm
answer. "He (Daddy) likes to wear them in bed sometimes."

Leave it at that, and wait for the next question. "Why?"

Answer, "he likes to pretend he's my 'prisoner of love'."

Best wishes for a long and happy one,
David Stevenson.

Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #120
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 121

Today's Topics:
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: Female Leads
Re: Thelma & Louise
A Done Deal (contd) (Article report)
Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a question
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Advice...
Psychics (was Female Leads)
Re: leaving the list
Re: Thelma & Louise
Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a question)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:06:06 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dee-Ann replied:

Should this man be confident and aggressive when in public and a snivelling
wimp in the woman's presence?

I see a lot of negativity in this phrasing. I don't go for
"aggressive," because to me that means more pushy/snotty than it might
mean to you. I don't want the guy trying to tell me what to do in
public, being rude to my friends, or just in general trying to assert
his "manliness" over other folks. That's what "aggressive" means to
me.

You're right. I didn't want to use the word aggressive. Self-confident,
which I used later, is a better word. Another word I might have used is
successful, as successful in business.

Also, your use of "snivelling wimp" seems, to me, negative. Some
women do want a fellow who will simply do what he's told and not
rebel, etc. That's their right. I tend to want in between...someone
who can think and act on his own, will generally do what he's told,
especially when I'm not in the mood to deal with uppity bull just
because someone wants to be "punished." Once again, there are folks
who enjoy this, but I don't tend to do punishment as a game...when I
use "punish" I mean "I know you're not going to like this, perhaps
you'll learn your lesson."

I also want someone who will share his opinions/feelilngs when
appropriate. I find it tedious to have to make every decision. He's
got a perfectly good mind, I want him to use it. :)

Here I meant to use the term "snivelling wimp" as in someone who feels
comfortable only when he's grovelling at the foot of a woman. I imagine
that woman would quickly grow tired of interacting on a daily basis with
this person.

peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:06:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads
Message-Id: <199606260306.UAA00704@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1009

mike Lee wrote:

Isn't Hillary Clinton currently having consultation with all these people
you mentioned?

I find it interesting that people latch on to this rumor that Hillary
uses psychics, considering that the Reagans were notorious for it when
I was growing up. I couldn't care less if people went to psychics.
Heck, I get the occasional tarot reading. ;) I think people like us
who are interested in ways of living that aren't counted as "normal"
have to be very, very careful when we throw stones from our glass
houses. Attacking someone in politics for doing something
"alternative" doesn't really help anyone in an alternative lifestyle
or having alternative beliefs doesn't really help your own cause, IMO.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 04:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thelma & Louise
Message-Id: <199606261149.EAA29385@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorceress wrote:
So you think they "chose" to die? I reiterate, BULLSHIT!

Ah.... Women never choose to die?

FEmatter. And, actually, you it wasn't believable as an ending? Propose one
FEthat -was- believable, -and- happy, if you can.

No sweat. They escape. People REALLY do it ALL the time!

People don't actually escape all that often, not when the police know who
they are, not when they've no experience in being on the run, certainly not
when there's a huge cordon of police vehicles on one side, the grand canyon
on t'other. Forensics, communications, ever decreasing wildernesses, and
helicopters pretty much ended the day when someone could break the law (note
that I did not say "commit a crime"
ment, and ride off into the sunset and get away. *sigh* ;-)

Interesting, albeit testosterone soaked argument. Untrue,
as well. You cannot tell me what I *IMPLY*! Only *I*
can tell you what I MEAN.

Heh. -If- this is true, then your own statements seem to have fallen into
a bowl of testosterone as well - because you've been trying to say what *I*
thought, what *I* meant, not to mention what all men thought and felt.

I do not expect you to "follow" my "logic." It is not
"logic," but *experience*. Additionally, I have no concern
for your feelings about"dommy" women. When you have walked
a lifetime in my pumps, then you can take offense.

Different people have different experiences, an' a fair number of women,
dominant or otherwise, seem to have made it through their experiences w/o
becoming overly bitter. You've no concern for my feelings? 'course not -
I'm a male, after all. ;-

Reality check though - people don't have to walk in your pumps in order to
take offense. For instance, I haven't walked in 'em (cross-dressing doesn't
go well with my beard), but I most certainly have taken offense. :-)

An' now I think I'll slink back off to a cave somewhere, since I obviously
don't have anything constructive, cheerful, or uplifting to say on this.
Then again, when do I ever?
-- \_awless is : Aliena's arrogant mild mannered wolf.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- "'sides, I can always use a few more scars"

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:25:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: A Done Deal (contd) (Article report)
Message-Id: <199606261225.FAA12418@netcom6.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2663

The perhaps too-trendy new US business magazine _Fast Company_
carries, in its June:July issue two explicitly, overtly Female
Supremacist articles.

The first, _Wonder Women in the Rude Boys Paradise_ (_Microsoft upgrades
its treatment of women to corner the only market that matters: Talent_) is
probably about how Bill has been told which way the wind is blowing and
is now out to bottle and ship FS v. 2.1, but does have an interesting
theme and some good quotes by some very motivated young women (who I
hope at some point stop being Microserfs and start their own companies).
Also featured is a sidebar about 'The Matron Saint,' the late, great
Admiral Grace Hopper (who is one of the founders of modern computing).
OK: buy the magazine just to see all that.

But it's the second article- a feature, really- that took my breath away.
In the department _Knowledge Exchange_ on page 58 titled 'Thank You Ma'am,
May I Have Another?' (The battle of the sexes is over and women won. Thank
goodness...Now how about a roll under my pumps?), Harriet Rubin tells it
like we here know it is.

After saying a few words about telling us how swinish male movers and
shakers can still be, she gets to the point: "...men are still clinging to
the hope that women are powerless, because they haven't got much else to
cling to." She goes on, a few sentences later: "Dominatrices are doing a
land-office business..." and gives some specifics, citing a San Francisco
Domina (possibly someone here?). And she goes on to quote other instances
of Proto life domination of men by women in business, making a good case
for a growing trend.

Near the end, Rubin, illustrates how the new business model is
"...fundamentally female- a web created of relationships.
The dirty little secret is that no one ever liked patriarchy in
the first place. Including men...They know the game is up..."

Harriet Rubin is the founder and publisher of Currency/Doubleday and
author of a forthcoming book on women and power (quoth _Fast Company's_
editors).

Oh, and this: the article is illustrated by a cartoon showing a white
middle aged male, naked it seems, and a woman's seriously stilettoed
foot standing on his head. ;9

YesSS!
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 07:12:26 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a question
Message-Id: <199606261412.HAA06346@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

peter wrote:

But, do most dominant women want a man who will put them on a
pedestal, or a snivelling wimp?

Just from my experience of sharing thoughts with at least 10,000 dom
women over the years, I would say that the large majority of dominant
women want a man who is pleasent, sexy, and in every way respectable,
to willingly subordinate himself to his woman because of her special
qualities which inspire him. The ideal sub male seems to be a guy
who's capable of holding his own around other men, and is not a simple
pushover or reject. He should have self-respect, asserting himself on
his own behalf if need be. So sniveling wimps are definately out.

Furthermore, he should be the kind of guy who's on women's side in
general; who makes an effort to understand women's issues. He should
be courteous to all women, without seeming to be flirting and trying to
make a slut of himself. The average dominant woman doesn't want a
slutty male who's been too free and easy with himself, too
self-indulgent, yet if he's comfortable enough with women that he has
had some sexual experience, that is a plus.

As for being put on a pedestal...nuts to that. No truly sub male would
try to put a woman anywhere, he'd let her place herself where she wants
to be, or help her to get where she wants to go.

In general, a sub guy should be the best guy he can be, healthy in body
and mind. He should look for the woman he really admires, and offer
his gifts to her. Gifts could be anything: his skills, his body, his
emotional support, his money, his love, his life. Whatever she wants
and needs that he can provide, this he offers. Whether he expects
something in return should be explicit. If he wants to have sex with
her, if he wants her love and care, if he wants to belong to her,
whether temporarily or permanantly, whether singly or as a member of
her harem, all this must be discussed and agreed to. Desire is
nothing, it's the agreement that counts. The agreement is a contract
that both should try to live up to with their whole hearts.

So if a sub male adores a woman and wishes to give her a gift,
expecting nothing in return except to be thought of as an admirer,
that's one thing. If he wants to be considered as a possible sex
partner, he should say so. If he wants a long-term relationship, he
should be prepared to court her and win her, and this could take time
and real dedication...it also should be declared, and the woman should
have no objections. Courting involves doing things for and with the
the charmer of your heart that tells her you want her to accept you as
her partner, that you want to be there in her future. You can court
all you want, and she might yet decide against you, but that's her
choice. It's *all* her choice, you see.

As to physical type, women do have their fetishes. Some women prefer
other women and a guy just doesn't have a chance. If you are thin and
she likes men who are thin, great. If you are husky and she likes 'em
husky, you are in luck. If you are beefy and she's intimidated by
muscle, you have got a problem. Some women love little men, small in
stature and delicate in build. Some women most admire a tall guy. It
pays to watch her and see what kind of partner she seems to prefer, or
just ask.




--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 07:30:57 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <199606261430.HAA08425@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com

What to tell the kids:

"You have your toys and games, and I have mine."

"You know that when mom's not around (fill in blank) is in charge."





--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:14:30 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Advice...
Message-ID: <31D153D6.173A@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura--

I do have a dungeon playspace in the basement, but we are as likely to
play upstairs.

I would enjoy having a 'play' space such as this... I have dreams of
living in a warehouse space with one section set up as a dungeon...

Bruce and I like to get rowdy when we play, and we are pretty verbal,
so we only play when the kids are at school (summer camp) AKA a nooner,
or we get the kids over to a friend's house. Or we leave the kids home
and go to a friend's to play. :)

I'm actually going to a play party at a "friend's house" on the 13th of
July and will see how she has things set up. It will be my first party.
I have always just played at home when my daughter was gone. I think
I will have a lot of fun...
We also have quiet things we can do, for example, Bruce can be required
to wear women's panties, or a butt-plug, or a diaper under his clothes.
Once the kids are asleep we do get into some quiet bondage/torture,
etc. (when we are not too tired ourselves).

That's a great idea... Laura, I really admire your ingenuity!

Lately I have been requiring Bruce to sleep in a slave bed in the
basement, so I can stretch out in my queen size bed upstairs. This
works out pretty good for both of us. If I'm in the mood for sex, we
have sex, then off he goes to his bunk in the dungeon. :)

I like this idea as well, but my sub will have to sleep on the sofa or
on the balcony... No basement here. :(

I think how you work this out is a personal matter, and your solution
will have to be tailored to your situation.

Thanks... I will do that, but it's nice to know how other women are
working these things out...especially those who are parents like I am.

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

I really enjoy this quote, Laura... As my Mom used to ask me,
"Who do you think you are? The Queen of Sheba?" If she asked
me that now, I would say "YES!"

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:38:19 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Psychics (was Female Leads)
Message-ID: <31D1596B.322D@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dee-Ann--

I find it interesting that people latch on to this rumor that Hillary
uses psychics, considering that the Reagans were notorious for it when
I was growing up. I couldn't care less if people went to psychics.
Heck, I get the occasional tarot reading. ;) I think people like us
who are interested in ways of living that aren't counted as "normal"
have to be very, very careful when we throw stones from our glass
houses. Attacking someone in politics for doing something
"alternative" doesn't really help anyone in an alternative lifestyle
or having alternative beliefs doesn't really help your own cause, IMO.

I am going to a psychic healer right now myself for immense right-sided
head pain after 2 brain surgeries...(tumor was benign, thank the
Goddess). I've never been considered normal (black sheep of my family,
never fit into any particular click in high school, still not part
of the 'establishment', and a Domme to boot ;) ), but that doesn't stop
me from trying new things if the established way of doing things don't
work.

I'm not attaching Hilary for doing anything alternative, just
that I don't agree with how Hilary is doing/has done other things...
Just MHO. I'm all for alternative lifestyles/health care.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:41:41 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: leaving the list
Message-ID: <31D15A35.6F54@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mitch--

I know Dee_Ann can stand up for herself, but everyone makes
mistakes... Dee-Ann is the foundress of this group and she
is the expert here.

Jet


To unsubscribe from the femsupremacy mailing list, write to

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

subscribe



Mitch "sheesh--everyone's an expert"
G.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:19:56 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thelma & Louise
Message-ID:

FESorceress wrote:
FE So you think they "chose" to die? I reiterate, BULLSHIT!

FEAh.... Women never choose to die?

I am being gracious by answering this, don't push me.
I did not say women NEVER choose to die. Your argument
is intentionally calculated to confuse the issue. It's
Called a "smokescreen." I take it you are also a
Republican...

FE FEmatter. And, actually, you it wasn't believable as an ending? Propose
FE FEthat -was- believable, -and- happy, if you can.
FE
FE No sweat. They escape. People REALLY do it ALL the time!

FEPeople don't actually escape all that often, not when the police know who
FEthey are, not when they've no experience in being on the run, certainly not
FEwhen there's a huge cordon of police vehicles on one side, the grand canyon
FEon t'other. Forensics, communications, ever decreasing wildernesses, and
FEhelicopters pretty much ended the day when someone could break the law (note
FEthat I did not say "commit a crime"
FEment, and ride off into the sunset and get away. *sigh* ;-)

People DO get away with murder every day. In fact,
it is the rule, rather than the exception.

FE Interesting, albeit testosterone soaked argument. Untrue,
FE as well. You cannot tell me what I *IMPLY*! Only *I*
FE can tell you what I MEAN.

FEHeh. -If- this is true, then your own statements seem to have fallen into
FEa bowl of testosterone as well - because you've been trying to say what *I*
FEthought, what *I* meant, not to mention what all men thought and felt.

Also fallacious...it is ESTROGEN. Capable of
pushing life into this world. We are Creators.

FE I do not expect you to "follow" my "logic." It is not
FE "logic," but *experience*. Additionally, I have no concern
FE for your feelings about"dommy" women. When you have walked
FE a lifetime in my pumps, then you can take offense.

FEDifferent people have different experiences, an' a fair number of women,
FEdominant or otherwise, seem to have made it through their experiences w/o
FEbecoming overly bitter. You've no concern for my feelings? 'course not -
FEI'm a male, after all. ;-
Do you think there is one woman out there who has not
heard and LAUGHED at this specific argument? We have
been conditioned to reject our own and our sister's
"bitterness" (man's word) as an "unnattractive" and
"unfeminine" trait. The fact is that when we follow
an argument strongly, or become outraged at some
unjustness, some man will come along and piss "Oh, you
are so BITTER..." ADDITIONALLY, I did not say I have
no concern for your feelings...I said I have no concern
for your feelings about "dommy women." Again, you have
intentionally mis-stated my words.

FEReality check though - people don't have to walk in your pumps in order to
FEtake offense. For instance, I haven't walked in 'em (cross-dressing doesn't
FEgo well with my beard), but I most certainly have taken offense. :-)

FEdon't have anything constructive, cheerful, or uplifting to say on this.
FEThen again, when do I ever?
REALITY check--is that I will not waste any more
precious bites on your pompous ass. You are not
funny or witty, and your arguments are weak and
ineffective. I am in agreement with your last
sentence,

/s
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:47:24 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a question)
Message-ID: <31D177AC.7285@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura--

I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't want a wimp, but
the type of man who can communicate and does willingly subordinate
himself. I couldn't agree with you more. I admire you very much...
you always seem to put things so eloquently.

We have such powerful and wonderful women on this list: Dee-Ann,
Patricia, Laura... I have learned so much from all of you and
I want you to know how much I appreciate you.

Jet

As for being put on a pedestal...nuts to that. No truly sub male would
try to put a woman anywhere, he'd let her place herself where she wants
to be, or help her to get where she wants to go.

In general, a sub guy should be the best guy he can be, healthy in body
and mind. He should look for the woman he really admires, and offer
his gifts to her. Gifts could be anything: his skills, his body, his
emotional support, his money, his love, his life. Whatever she wants
and needs that he can provide, this he offers. Whether he expects
something in return should be explicit. If he wants to have sex with
her, if he wants her love and care, if he wants to belong to her,
whether temporarily or permanantly, whether singly or as a member of
her harem, all this must be discussed and agreed to. Desire is
nothing, it's the agreement that counts. The agreement is a contract
that both should try to live up to with their whole hearts.

So if a sub male adores a woman and wishes to give her a gift,
expecting nothing in return except to be thought of as an admirer,
that's one thing. If he wants to be considered as a possible sex
partner, he should say so. If he wants a long-term relationship, he
should be prepared to court her and win her, and this could take time
and real dedication...it also should be declared, and the woman should
have no objections. Courting involves doing things for and with the
the charmer of your heart that tells her you want her to accept you as
her partner, that you want to be there in her future. You can court
all you want, and she might yet decide against you, but that's her
choice. It's *all* her choice, you see.

As to physical type, women do have their fetishes. Some women prefer
other women and a guy just doesn't have a chance. If you are thin and
she likes men who are thin, great. If you are husky and she likes 'em
husky, you are in luck. If you are beefy and she's intimidated by
muscle, you have got a problem. Some women love little men, small in
stature and delicate in build. Some women most admire a tall guy. It
pays to watch her and see what kind of partner she seems to prefer, or
just ask.


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 122

Today's Topics:
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a
question)
Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a question
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a ques
Femdom-only men?
Femdom-only men?
Re: Admiration
Re: Femdom-only men?
Re: Admiration
Re: Admiration
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Admiration
Re: Not Your Average Mom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 12:06:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <199606261906.MAA00423@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3680

Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

For example I could envisage a situation where one could order, "Go and write
that you were rude in your book this instant," to a husband.

Your daughter might chirp up, "What book?"

You might answer, "It helps him to be more polite if I tell him to write
it down when he is bad mannered."

I can see this kind of solution being a bad idea in some cases. It
could easily undermine whatever respect a child has for that person,
making them ineffectual as a "babysitter". Also, if I was the
kid/teen in question, I tell you I'd be _looking_ for that punishment
book to see what was in it.

These are just my personal feelings, but IMO I wouldn't do a lot of
D/s in front of my kids (if I had any :). I would require my mate to
obey me, yes, but there's really a difference between, "Go get me a
towel, would ya?" "Sure, one sec!" and "Get me a towel or I'm going
to drag you in the back room and do you-know-what".

More generally, imho kids know when something is being hidden
and work out their own reasons for it. Which may be strange.

Yup. And even with very subtle D/s, kids will eventually notice that
if you want something to to Mom, because dad always has to check with
her first.

Watched an interesting special the other night on children's
development. They discovered that while girls tend to do things other
girls do, little boys will emulate whoever seems to have the power and
control. They always emulated the adult men until they showed a
situation where the women had all of the toys and wouldn't share.
Then, the boys started emulating the women (changing their hats to the
hat the woman was wearing, and copying the distinctive play they had
the women doing in the video).

They also showed an example where a woman was trying to call her
husband for lunch. The guy was working for something and mostly
ignoring her, saying he'd "be there in a minute." Then, they showed
her trying to call her 4 yr old son in for his bath. He was coloring.
He would look right at her, she'd say, "You want cold bathwater?"
He'd just look at her, and pick up another coloring pencil. So, to
all of you sub dads out there, this is an example of how you can make
your mate's life more difficult without really realising it.

It is better if one encourages honesty and openness and is
prepared to answer all questions that might come up. Then when you
are lucky and the worst ones don't, you get the happy ending. If
however your daughter turns around one day and says, "Why is there a
pair of handcuffs under your bed?" Be prepared to give her a calm
answer. "He (Daddy) likes to wear them in bed sometimes."

Yes, but there's one major concern I've heard a number of 24/7 couples
with kids mention. They don't want their children growing up confused
over when it's ok to hit someone/be hit by someone. And you
especially don't want your kid saying at school, "Mommy hits daddy but
it's ok because he likes it!" That could lose you your children in
the US and probably Canada, at least.

I do agree that if they're old enough to ask, one should give an
answer. Just be careful when answering and take the time to not leave
things confusing or open to interpretation. Not that I'm saying to
give them way more info than they asked for, but just remember not to
skim over it too much out of nervousness.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 96 16:31:56 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <960626203156_101342.2030_GHW109-1@CompuServe.COM

What Ms Dee Ann said makes so much sense, after all we all love each other in
this group, but we are *different*. It is in the bdsm area that we are different,
ordinary people find us totally strange, we *all* know this. Female Supremacy is
quite another matter, many, many households throughout the world are headed by
Ladies, and is easily accepted by the children (both my London grandmothers ruled
their families with rods of iron). Men doing as they are told by their Ladies is
common in the East end of London, even though the area breads some of the biggest
villains in England. What is not common (in public) is the open humiliation of
the men, purely for their survival amongst their neighbours.

It is unfair to expose children to adult bdsm, they understand bdsm far too well
already, in the UK, school bullying has become the *play time* norm. How can we
expect them to respect a doctrine of peaceful co-existence if their roll model is
their mother constantly bullying her partner. Since *consential* is a *grown up*
word, Dominant women (and men in a bdsm partnership) must respect their childrens
childhood and keep their adult games to themselves. In the meantime, they can
still rule the household, after all, agreed *signs* from dominant to submissive
have long been an established protocol.
Dominants are by nature selfish (thank heavens), but when it comes to child
participation in bdsm (for that is what it is) - forget it !!

I apologise for a somewhat *strident* posting, but as a father of 3 children,
I feel strongly about exposing children to adult scenarios (alcohol, drugs,
bdsm etc.), instead, protect them and teach them to be intelligent enough to
make their own way (and make up their own minds) in this world with safety.

Dennis (t.o.m)



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:15:46 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a
question)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Please add Mistress Lady Jet to this list. She is not only strong, but also
a kind, compassionate, caring and sensitive Woman Who has brought an
immeasurable amount of joy into my life.
Her pet
peter


We have such powerful and wonderful women on this list: Dee-Ann,
Patricia, Laura... I have learned so much from all of you and
I want you to know how much I appreciate you.

Jet



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:28:54 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a question
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

While I quite often don't agree with what Laura writes, she more than often
comes up with and exceptional insite into the scene. This one is
beautiful.

Peter

peter wrote:

But, do most dominant women want a man who will put them on a
pedestal, or a snivelling wimp?

Just from my experience of sharing thoughts with at least 10,000 dom
women over the years, I would say that the large majority of dominant
women want a man who is pleasent, sexy, and in every way respectable,
to willingly subordinate himself to his woman because of her special
qualities which inspire him. The ideal sub male seems to be a guy
who's capable of holding his own around other men, and is not a simple
pushover or reject. He should have self-respect, asserting himself on
his own behalf if need be. So sniveling wimps are definately out.

Furthermore, he should be the kind of guy who's on women's side in
general; who makes an effort to understand women's issues. He should
be courteous to all women, without seeming to be flirting and trying to
make a slut of himself. The average dominant woman doesn't want a
slutty male who's been too free and easy with himself, too
self-indulgent, yet if he's comfortable enough with women that he has
had some sexual experience, that is a plus.

As for being put on a pedestal...nuts to that. No truly sub male would
try to put a woman anywhere, he'd let her place herself where she wants
to be, or help her to get where she wants to go.

In general, a sub guy should be the best guy he can be, healthy in body
and mind. He should look for the woman he really admires, and offer
his gifts to her. Gifts could be anything: his skills, his body, his
emotional support, his money, his love, his life. Whatever she wants
and needs that he can provide, this he offers. Whether he expects
something in return should be explicit. If he wants to have sex with
her, if he wants her love and care, if he wants to belong to her,
whether temporarily or permanantly, whether singly or as a member of
her harem, all this must be discussed and agreed to. Desire is
nothing, it's the agreement that counts. The agreement is a contract
that both should try to live up to with their whole hearts.

So if a sub male adores a woman and wishes to give her a gift,
expecting nothing in return except to be thought of as an admirer,
that's one thing. If he wants to be considered as a possible sex
partner, he should say so. If he wants a long-term relationship, he
should be prepared to court her and win her, and this could take time
and real dedication...it also should be declared, and the woman should
have no objections. Courting involves doing things for and with the
the charmer of your heart that tells her you want her to accept you as
her partner, that you want to be there in her future. You can court
all you want, and she might yet decide against you, but that's her
choice. It's *all* her choice, you see.

As to physical type, women do have their fetishes. Some women prefer
other women and a guy just doesn't have a chance. If you are thin and
she likes men who are thin, great. If you are husky and she likes 'em
husky, you are in luck. If you are beefy and she's intimidated by
muscle, you have got a problem. Some women love little men, small in
stature and delicate in build. Some women most admire a tall guy. It
pays to watch her and see what kind of partner she seems to prefer, or
just ask.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:27:25 -0400
From: gab@imi.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <9606262227.AA30844@RezoNet.NET
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura deals with the issue with humour and wisdom in

"You have your toys and games, and I have mine."

"You know that when mom's not around (fill in blank) is in charge."

In our household, we follow the same priority of who is in charge, and the
statement is made in exactly the same way.

Mom's method of discipline for the kids is her trusty long wooden spoon, a
trick she learned from her mom. She also let's them know that no one in the
household escapes punishment when she warns them:


father!

That, of course, is the leather crop that hangs visibly in Her bedroom
closet, and they know it!

The first time this was said, our 7 year old asked:



Her answer,


think that's fair?

Our 7 year old,



and the subject has never again been brought up, but has not been forgotten.
And at times when Daddy is tempting fate, one of the kids may pop up with a
statement such as


Other than W.C. Fields, whoever said kids weren't a joy!!


Tony

--
Follow the slave's Golden Rule:
Do unto your Mistress what SHE asks, and then some.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 96 19:53:04 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Re: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a ques
Message-ID: <960626235304_101342.2030_GHW44-1@CompuServe.COM

Please add Mistress Lady Jet to this list. She is not only strong, but also
a kind, compassionate, caring and sensitive Woman Who has brought an
immeasurable amount of joy into my life.
Her pet
peter

I totally concur, whilst being an obvious dominant Lady, She has also a sense of
humour and depth of personality that would attract the more intellectual and
thinking male *sub*. (I still find *sub* a difficult word to accept, I am a
human being who has decided that he would rather follow the instincts of the
female. I am a only a *sub* to a Lady to whom I feel I can submit).

Whilst this is a Female Supremacy group, I hope that it will not become a
totally anti-male establishment, since, after all, if you have not us males
to support you (including Lawless), how can we *spread the News*. If, in
real life (including Internet life) you prefer a meretool, let me be *unsubscribed*
as soon as possible, because as much as I love the Women on this group, I am
not a meretool, I am Dennis.

I joined this group as a male who accepted Female Supremacy, not as a
*nothing* male ( in which case I would have subcribed to Femdom). I subscribed to
this group because it allowed an interface between the *thinking* submissive and
the *thinking* dominant.

It is interesting that my asking for prayers for *Hilary* (no, not the USA
Presidents wife, just a mere ordinary woman), my dear, dear friend suffering from
advanced breast cancer , was more responded to by the Male members of our group.
Thanks to all you Men !! Can I say that with an increase of Diamorphine
automatically *driven* into her, she is comfortable, and after selecting a wig,
she is ready for the radio-therapy. She may live, or she may not (with the male
support .. she may) . Hilary did not ask for the small lump in her breast, but she
has been totally brave. Apart from losing part of what could be assumed the *most
beautiful* breasts in the world (and that is what she had), she has gone from an
athlete to a cripple without one word of remorse.
Hilary epitomises all that Women have to give to males, if she dies, Women have
lost *On Of Their Best*.

Dennis (t.o.m)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 02:45:19 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Femdom-only men?
Message-Id: <199606270045.CAA04518@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 26 Jun 96 19:53:04 EDT, OhEadhra wrote:

I joined this group as a male who accepted Female Supremacy, not as a
*nothing* male ( in which case I would have subcribed to Femdom). I subscribed to
this group because it allowed an interface between the *thinking* submissive and
the *thinking* dominant.

What!?! Are trying to say that men, who are only part of the femdom side,
are stupid men in complete lack of confidence and self-esteem? I'm sorry, but
in my experience you're shooting way beside the target here.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 96 03:27:45 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Femdom-only men?
Message-ID: <960627072744_101342.2030_GHW94-1@CompuServe.COM

What!?! Are trying to say that men, who are only part of the femdom side,
are stupid men in complete lack of confidence and self-esteem? I'm sorry, but
in my experience you're shooting way beside the target here.

Sorry all !! As you may have gathered, I was feeling totally p*ssed off with
everything last night.

Many apologies

Dennis (t.o.m)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:11:13 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Admiration
Message-Id: <199606271511.IAA11474@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com

We have such powerful and wonderful women on this list: Dee-Ann,
Patricia, Laura... I have learned so much from all of you and
I want you to know how much I appreciate you.

Jet

Thanks Jet, and I agree with you that we have a lot to be grateful for,
with so many really fine minds all contributing such exciting stuff!
You really inspire me...glad to return the favor. :)
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 17:12:58 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Femdom-only men?
Message-Id: <199606271512.RAA04308@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 27 Jun 96 03:27:45 EDT, OhEadhra wrote:

Sorry all !! As you may have gathered, I was feeling totally p*ssed off with
everything last night.

I've had days like that myself too.

Once again I'm not entirely satisfied with my comment either. I need to
learn to calm down a bit before I comment.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:21:18 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Admiration
Message-ID: <31D2D11E.7E49@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I too, really appreciate all the fine, strong women here...and that
includes you Jet. When my company makes its first million and I have to
buy and fly my Lear Jet....I will pick you all up and we will go have
lunch and shopping in Paris.
Patricia

Laura Goodwin wrote:

We have such powerful and wonderful women on this list: Dee-Ann,
Patricia, Laura... I have learned so much from all of you and
I want you to know how much I appreciate you.

Jet

Thanks Jet, and I agree with you that we have a lot to be grateful for,
with so many really fine minds all contributing such exciting stuff!
You really inspire me...glad to return the favor. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:34:22 -0400
From: cuffs@shore.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Admiration
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960627153422.00697994@shell1.shore.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Can i come, You will all need someone to carry the bags.... :)




At 11:21 AM 6/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
I too, really appreciate all the fine, strong women here...and that
includes you Jet. When my company makes its first million and I have to
buy and fly my Lear Jet....I will pick you all up and we will go have
lunch and shopping in Paris.
Patricia

Laura Goodwin wrote:

We have such powerful and wonderful women on this list: Dee-Ann,
Patricia, Laura... I have learned so much from all of you and
I want you to know how much I appreciate you.

Jet

Thanks Jet, and I agree with you that we have a lot to be grateful for,
with so many really fine minds all contributing such exciting stuff!
You really inspire me...glad to return the favor. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 08:41:47 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <199606271541.IAA03883@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

I apologise for a somewhat *strident* posting, but as a father of 3
children,I feel strongly about exposing children to adult scenarios
(alcohol, drugs,bdsm etc.), instead, protect them and teach them to be
intelligent enough tomake their own way (and make up their own minds)
in this world with safety.

Dennis (t.o.m)

I agree with you Dennis. I'm not raising my son to be submissive, nor
my daughter to be dominant...I am rasing them to be tolerant of love's
variety and to have enough self-respect to pursue honest and truly
satisfying relationships. I support them no matter where love takes
them, and I *do* ask as much from them, yeah.

The personal details about daddy and me are certainly none of their
business, but they can see that we are happy, unashamed, and honored by
our similarly leathered-up friends. They have also seen that our
friends are really cool and likeable, and they know better than some
people that the noise about perverts being dangerous or bad is simply
wrong.
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:01:02 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Admiration
Message-ID: <31D2F68E.50A6@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

well...we will have to vote on it .. all us DOMME'S...but my vote is ..
if you lick and spit polish my beautiful Lear...you can carry, load,
unload our bags..and carry the many bags of purchases we acquire in
Paris. You may sit on the ground by the table at the outside cafe where
we eat lunch and we may or may not drop you crumbs...one likes to
imagine that in Paris...such things are not even given a second look.
and, of course, we will then charge everything on your credit card.
Patricia

cuffs@shore.net wrote:

Can i come, You will all need someone to carry the bags.... :)

At 11:21 AM 6/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
I too, really appreciate all the fine, strong women here...and that
includes you Jet. When my company makes its first million and I have to
buy and fly my Lear Jet....I will pick you all up and we will go have
lunch and shopping in Paris.
Patricia

Laura Goodwin wrote:

We have such powerful and wonderful women on this list: Dee-Ann,
Patricia, Laura... I have learned so much from all of you and
I want you to know how much I appreciate you.

Jet

Thanks Jet, and I agree with you that we have a lot to be grateful for,
with so many really fine minds all contributing such exciting stuff!
You really inspire me...glad to return the favor. :)
--
Laura Goodwin

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:06:59 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31D2F7F3.2E6B@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This whole idea of this being a perversion is up-side-down logic. What
is more perverted..to be a woman who knows how she can reach
multiple..or even a single orgasm..
..who cannot, or is not allowed to tell her partner how it is done
(because it might damage his ego) and therefore lives her whole life
with him never reaching orgasm during sexual relations with him..or the
woman who tells the man how its done and the man who follows her
instructions. I would say the former is perversion, the latter is
healthy.
Patricia

Laura Goodwin wrote:
and they know better than some
people that the noise about perverts being dangerous or bad is simply
wrong.
--
Laura Goodwin

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #122
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 111

Today's Topics:
Re: They just don't get it right...
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #110
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #110
In the news today...

Perceptions of the higher power
Re: Perceptions of the higher power
Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:48:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: They just don't get it right...
Message-Id: <199606192248.PAA23050@netcom11.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2551

(I'm trying to not post here until I get caught up on private mail, but
this really caught my attention. And Netcom has been really buggered the
last few days- almost impossible to get a good post out.)

Tracey quoted her local (in NZ) press:


"I think she would be a the best prime minister we could have - she's like
Winston Peters - lots of strength."

However, Waikanae's Myra Thompson had some reservations about seeing Mrs
Shipley in the top job. "A husband and a wife are needed to run a country. It
is one of those jobs where you must have the wife there in attendance when it
is necessary." she said

Tracey, there's both good news and bad news in all this:

The good news of course is Sarah: despite her making comparison to a male,
she -and many other little old ladies who have seen it all- has got it right.
The women who were around doing things in WWII seem to be in a
little generational window of about 10 years that actually knows what's
coming. After 1947 or so the window closed and the women who came age
after that and well into the 60's seemed to have again bought the
patriarchal social values. =Their= daughters, though- women about
50-something, are an interesting bunch, some of them (which is why I'm
on Crone as well as here). And then some are like 'Myra' and the Myras of
the world everywhere- afraid to take the leap.

The bad news is that there are a lot of Myras everywhere, terrified of the
what their mothers (briefly) dared and their daughters will dare and win.

More good news is that there are more and more of you and less and less
of them. Little bits and pieces of victory, everywhere in the Western
societies (and some elsewhere), some reported here, but most invisible.
Like seeds germinating and little creatures preparing the soil.

(You NZedders I think are tilling especially fertile ground by the way.
It may not seem that way to you, but look around at the rest of the world.)

Ever the optimist and back to lurking until I get caught up, :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:33:46 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #110
Message-ID: <31C839FA.5200@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

God reveals himself in many ways. The book of nature, the Bible, and in
the male and female gender as well as the miracle of the two becoming one
in their offspring. The man and woman create a baby from their own flesh
and the two become one symbolizing the Godhead, where three are one, the
Trinity. God has never to my knowledge chosen to reveal himself as a
hermorphadite. He calls himself the father, the son, and the mother of
the universe, and symbolizes his church all through the bible as a bride
adorned for her husband, and a virtuous woman. The former representation
is a rare act, unfortunate, and one none of us would envy, thus hardly a
fitting symbol for the divine glory of God. In the old testament,
sacrifices of even animals had to be perfect without blemish, as did the
priests who offered them. The family, Mother, Father and Son is Gods'
chosen symbol of His/Her person hood and it is a beautiful thing. The
newborn reflects both parents and we male and female reflect both our
parents and their Son. Regarding nothing being evil, Satan fell from
heaven like lightning, and has roamed the earth seeking whom he may
devour like a roaring lion. Look at all the evil in this world, child
molesters, murderers and rapists. There will be a reckoning day and they
will all get their just due. Satan was defeated 2000 yrs ago when the
Son
died in your place and mine to free us from evil. He respected women,
traveled with three Marys, talked to the woman at the well who had five
husbands, and showed her great respect engaging her in an intellectual
discussion which was unheard of for a Jew to talk to a Samaritan, little
lone a woman, as back then rabbis did not address women. He defended
Mary Magdaline, and appeared to her first after His resurrection! He
said she was one of the greatest and her act of anointing His feet with
oil would be told forever. The son greatly respected women and died for
them. Soon we will all live in love and peace, and those who want to
kill and destroy will learn to respect others or pay the ultimate
price. All our beliefs should be respected, even if they are very
diverse. Disagree, without being disagreeable! Deborah gave me
permission to humbly submit
my reflections!

Spirit Wind


Gave me permission to send this!!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:12:44 -0700
From: Brett J Wakefield
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #110
Message-ID: <31C9322C.7E5F@slip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thomas Hughes wrote:

God reveals himself in many ways. God has never to my knowledge chosen to reveal himself as a
hermorphadite. Satan was defeated 2000 yrs ago when the
Son
died in your place and mine to free us from evil. All our beliefs should be respected, even if they are very
diverse. Disagree, without being disagreeable!

(Editted)

An interesting interpretation of some "scriptures" (i.e., "writings")

Of course in the original "scriptures" the embodiment was Rama, the human
form assumed by Vishnu, in response to the pleas of the gods begging
Vishnu to do something to help humanity, brought to Palestine (and Greece
and Egypt) by the Bhuddist missionaries sent out from India by Ashoka
following his conversion (second century BCE). The Bhuddist missionaries
were remarkably adept at modifying the mythos to fit local beliefs and
customs. Contrast the Jesus narrative, for example, with the very
different form that emerged in Tibet as a result of the efforts of Marpa
the Translater and his disciple Milarepa.

In the Ramayana (the "scriptural" form of the far earlier oral
traditions) Rama was of course killed and resurrected - the story is
familiar, only the names were changed to locally acceptable forms, along
with accretions from the old Egyptian traditions: the Isis Osiris mythos.

And the mythos concerning Shiva, the God form which WAS represented as
Divine Hermaphrodite, and his consort (and enslaver) Shakti was
scripturalized in the Upanishads, which were held to be more esoteric,
and less accesible to the masses than the Ramayana, and so of somewhat
less concern to Ahoka"s emissaries got rather short shrift in the Levant.
About which Priestess Laura G. is far more able than I, who am merely a
member of SMC.

I've always assumed that Ashoka's missionaries thought the rather
irascible descendents of the desert bandit gangs who assaulted their
neighbors screaming "Yahweh!", the name of their very masculine warrior
god, weren't quite ready for all the complexities of an ancient
civilization's theological permutations.

For myself, I've become most comfortable with the formulations of Master
Lao in the Tao Te Ching, that the Tao which can be named is not the Tao,
neither has It measure nor form...

Respectfully submitted,

Brett

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:07:21 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: In the news today...
Message-Id: <199606201307.GAA22209@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com

CONGRESS URGED TO SET UP SEX OFFENDER DATABASE - The parents of a
murdered nine-year old girl urged Congress Wednesday to establish a
national database for convicted sex offenders to help track those who
move from state to state. [Reuters]

PREDATOR LAW FACES SUPREME COURT TEST - The legality of a Washington
state law allowing sexually violent predators to be confined
indefinitely will be on the line as the U.S. Supreme Court considers
an almost identical law struck down as unconstitutional in Kansas.
[SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER]

RIVERSIDE MAN CONVICTED OF SEXUAL ATTACKS IN O.C. - A Riverside man
was convicted Monday of a string of Orange County rapes and sexual
assaults that could bring a maximum life sentence under the state's
"one strike, you're out" sexual offense law. [LOS ANGELES TIMES]




--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject:
Message-Id: <199606201349.GAA13355@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thomas / Spirit Wind sent:
Regarding nothing being evil, Satan fell from
heaven like lightning, and has roamed the earth seeking whom he may
devour like a roaring lion. Look at all the evil in this world, child
molesters, murderers and rapists. There will be a reckoning day and they
will all get their just due. Satan was defeated 2000 yrs ago when the
Son died in your place and mine to free us from evil.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

First off - _IF_ the christian ghod exists and the bible is anything more
than fable and myth with a smattering of history thrown in, then ghod and
Lucifer, most perfect of all ghod's creations, fought a war. ghod won.
Small wonder he claimed Lucifer evil; it's just as likely that Lucifer saw
ghod as evil, and rebelled for that reason. But victors in war write the
histories....

Second - rather male-centric, your entire post, full of ghod as 'he' and
'himself'. And, from my point of view, not untypically male in pushing
-one- view and inflicting it on others. The son died in _my_ place?!? I
don't flamin' think so. -If- the ghod depicted in the old testament is at
all correct, I refuse to worship or accept him as divine - evil, arrogant,
prejudiced, the list of adjectives I'd use could go on and on....

That's my view of the Xian faith - but unlike you, I don't make a habit out
of inflicting my beliefs on others unless provoked. A number of us here on
the list have pointed out their atheism, or their belief in something other
than the judeo-christian deity, and pointed out that they take offense in
someone attempting to inflict their faith upon them. If, as Thomas said
towards the end of his letter :

All our beliefs should be respected, even if they are very diverse....

Then why this dis-respect of others beliefs, in attempting to proselatise
so? Look at the much less intrusive manner in which 'sieur Brett Wake-
field posted, writing of Hindu faith and tradition, which he managed to do
ver' well w/o dropping down into one-true-wayism or preaching. Thanks
Brett!

Chase

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:16:49 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Perceptions of the higher power
Message-Id: <199606201416.HAA22849@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

Brett wrote:

Thomas Hughes wrote:

God reveals himself in many ways. God has never to my knowledge
chosen to reveal himself as a hermorphadite. Satan was defeated
2000 yrs ago when the Son died in your place and mine to free us from
evil. All our beliefs should be respected, even if they are very
diverse. Disagree, without being disagreeable!

For myself, I've become most comfortable with the formulations of
Master Lao in the Tao Te Ching, that the Tao which can be named is not
the Tao, neither has It measure nor form...

What is fascinating to me is what a person's perception of the
personality and character of the ultimate mind is. I see the Goddess
as a Mother who is a lover of her own creation. Someone else sees a
conquering male God who defeats competing demons and gods, someone else
sees a mysterious force moving for it's own reasons in it's own way.

None of this can be *proved*. The reason there are so many views of
God is because there is no known way to silence dissent. You can't even
kill 'em all, because out of every generation new ideas about God
spring forth from the midst of even the most orthodox like hardy weeds.

In the end, your relationship with spiritual life is a deeply personal
one, and I hope, a happy one. I know happy Athiests who are perfectly
content to believe in no God or any sort of superstition. They are not
fascinated by these questions, and in fact find them annoying. What
happens after we die? Who cares! Yet they can be deeply moral and
decent, working for the good of humanity and the future because they
wish to be immortalized in human memory as a good person.

You can be a good person regardless of what inspires or motivates you.
Maybe we can't all agree on spiritual questions, but we can perhaps
agree on a good way to live.

For whatever reason, I believe in living as if there will be people
living on this earth for a long time to come...I believe in not
destroying the possibility of a future. I believe in saving the human
race from their own folly and the world from disaster. Maybe world
death is inevitable, but I wish to stand at the end and be able to say
that I, for one, worked and fought and prayed for life and health, and
did what I could to ease people's misery, and save all the innocent
animals...to prevent the destruction of our fabulous earth: the garden
spot of the solar system.
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:01:18 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Perceptions of the higher power
Message-Id: <199606201701.KAA10292@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

For whatever reason, I believe in living as if there will be people
living on this earth for a long time to come...

I should add that I know that there are many Christians, Taoists,
Buddists, Hindus, Moslems, Pagans, and Atheists who all agree on this
point, each for their own reasons.

Some people see the human race as the divinely authorized agent of the
world's destruction, but many of us feel that it's not up to us to
force the hand of destiny. We should be living responsibly, and
paitently await the issue. Some people think that if it's in our nature
to be destuctive of one another and our world, that it's wrong to try
and fight it. Other's feel that, since we have a demonstrated ability
to question and control our behavior, that we are obligated to do so.

On one hand you have folks who think that sin and evil are inevitable,
and that destruction of our race and world would be simple justice.
Others think that if we can dream of redemption, and a healthy world at
peace, that we can accomplish it, the way we once only dreamed of
flight. Some think it's no good to try to live on, and we ought to get
the misery over with. Some think that we should fight with all our
strength, unto our last breath, for life, and the right to inhabit the
future.

I suppose a point could be reached where the only choice is to accept
the death of the world and the end of life. That's when I'll be ready
to make my peace with it. Until then, I'm fighting for life, and for a
decent quality of life. This will require sacrifices, of course. Not
all lifestyles and philosophies are equally valuable in a well-managed
world. Those who are destructive of peace and health, who assault the
common good for personal gain or for the sake of insupportable
superstitions must be stopped.


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:02:49 -0400
From: Slavem586@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <960620130247_221427215@emout10.mail.aol.com

i am learning about Ms. Laura Goodwin
and Goddess Worship. A computer
gave me my name slave m586 and
it is a very cold name. i humbly ask
if a Mistress of this list would be so
gracious as to suggest a new name
for me ... at least until i find an
Owner who will hopefully give me a
name to signify Her Ownership.

slave m586

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:33:54 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <31C9B5B2.9E3@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

then tell us something about yourself...
PATRICIA
by-the-way:
I have been spending time interviewing possible live-in. he has been
over three weekends now and he just gets worse and worse. This weekend
will be heavy training session. he is very bad, lax, full of himself.
I have had him sign on to this list so he might learn something. his
purpose should be to smooth the waters for ME. he likes to hang out and
watch ME work. this weekend he is coming to MY house on Friday night.
I will have him come into back attic room, get naked, ring bell that he
is here and wait for ME to come. he will only get out of attic room to
do chores. I will inspect each job and then have him go back and wait
for next instruction. he hates the attic room and being left alone. he
has been very bad, leaving mold on my bathroom tiles, getting up
whenever he feels like it, not asking etc. we went to a restaurant last
weekend and he even sat down before I was seated.
This weekend I will go alone to restaurants and bring him back doggie
bags. This will be his life until he either knows without even thinking
(and he thinks too much) that all he wants to do is make MY life run
smoothly, or I will begin search anew for 24/7 sub male to live with me
in new hampshire.

one thing I have done this week is correct his email. he capitalizes
his name when he signs email....Gerry...he calls himself "I" when
speaking of self and calls ME "you", all lower case. he is being
punished now..for that and everytime he uses a capital for himself he
will be fined a dollar, every time he does not capitalize ME, he will be
fined a dollar.
he loves orally pleasing ME (of course) and he will be made celibate
until he learns the art of being an enhancement to MY LIFE. Dominance
sexually arouses ME (have any other DOMME'S found this to be true--that
when slave is not performing well YOU lose any desire to have that
particular sub please YOU?) Maybe I need to get visiting sub for this
weekend....while subgerry learns...I can have fun.

if anyone else has had similar problems and has had successful solution
please let ME know.. and if anyone wants to address subgerry on this
issue he is on the list.
thanks
and Blessed Be
PATRICIA

Slavem586@aol.com wrote:

i am learning about Ms. Laura Goodwin
and Goddess Worship. A computer
gave me my name slave m586 and
it is a very cold name. i humbly ask
if a Mistress of this list would be so
gracious as to suggest a new name
for me ... at least until i find an
Owner who will hopefully give me a
name to signify Her Ownership.

slave m586

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-Id: <199606201751.KAA12082@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1982

Slave m586 requested:

i am learning about Ms. Laura Goodwin
and Goddess Worship. A computer
gave me my name slave m586 and
it is a very cold name. i humbly ask
if a Mistress of this list would be so
gracious as to suggest a new name
for me ... at least until i find an
Owner who will hopefully give me a
name to signify Her Ownership.

Because I am not a 'Mistress,' I will not presume to offer a
name for Slave m586, but will suggest that he help the woman
or women who name him by telling them a little bit more about
himself, especially about a significant or really transforming
event in his life, in the best case then event that led him here
('here' being his submissive state of mind). If he tells his story
to these women and tells it well (privately if needed) my bet is that
he will have a good outcome.

The act of capital en Naming is a powerful and necessary part of
initiation into most cultures, imparting as it does an identity,
a hope and a blessing on the part of the Namer, and binding the
namee and his life-myth to her values and her life-myth.

I for one do not even remotely resemble a coyote (not unless Rod Steiger
or Carroll O'Connor or -depending on what I'm wearing- Dame Edna are
coyotes). But the Wise Woman who Named me, Rainbow Serpent, took a
significant event from my life and gave it Her blessing, for which I am
more than grateful. It was not done lightly, and it took a lot of prayer,
meditation, energy and even risk on Her part. It was a very loving gift.

Peace :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:16:13 -0400
From: Slavem586@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <960620141612_139222180@emout18.mail.aol.com

Thank You, Ms. PATRICIA.

i am an unemployed salesman living in Western MA. i am unmarried.
i have always imagined myself as a slaveboy to a Roman Mistress or
a footman to a Victorian lady. i think that i am a natural submissive
but i can only think of women as Superior. i found Ms. Goodwin's SMC
sight and i was immediately captivated by it. The important thing for
me is to change my mental state so that it rejects the male-dominated
mores around me and embraces Female Supremacy. i hope someday
that i will be able to give my future Owner mindless obedience and that
i will be able to see myself as a mere tool for Her benefit. my dream
career would be as a house slave to a very strict Mistress. i bow
humbly to You, Ms. PATRICIA and i thank You for troubling Yourself
over a mere male. slave m586

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:19:50 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <31C9C076.3FB5@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

tool, or meretool comes to MY MIND.
Patricia


Slavem586@aol.com wrote:

Thank You, Ms. PATRICIA.

i am an unemployed salesman living in Western MA. i am unmarried.
i have always imagined myself as a slaveboy to a Roman Mistress or
a footman to a Victorian lady. i think that i am a natural submissive
but i can only think of women as Superior. i found Ms. Goodwin's SMC
sight and i was immediately captivated by it. The important thing for
me is to change my mental state so that it rejects the male-dominated
mores around me and embraces Female Supremacy. i hope someday
that i will be able to give my future Owner mindless obedience and that
i will be able to see myself as a mere tool for Her benefit. my dream
career would be as a house slave to a very strict Mistress. i bow
humbly to You, Ms. PATRICIA and i thank You for troubling Yourself
over a mere male. slave m586

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:34:33 -0400
From: Slavem586@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <960620143431_418252994@emout13.mail.aol.com

Ms. Patricia,

i thank You humbly. i will take the name that you advise, Ma'am. Another
gracious favor, Ma'am ... could you deign to be my Mentor or could You
recommend a
Mentor. Thank You, Ma'am for Your help. And may i say that i envy Your
candidate
slave more than i can say. i will sign tol or meretool, as You like, Ma'am.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #111
************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: Femsuprem name
Questioning.
The God/dess threads
Re: Femsuprem name
Re: God/Goddess?
We three kings of Orient are,,,
the goddess holiday
Re: God/Goddess?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 20:46:12 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-Id: <199606201845.UAA03777@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:33:54 -0700, Noble wrote:

I have been spending time interviewing possible live-in. he has been
over three weekends now and he just gets worse and worse. This weekend
will be heavy training session. he is very bad, lax, full of himself.
I have had him sign on to this list so he might learn something. his
purpose should be to smooth the waters for ME. he likes to hang out and
watch ME work. this weekend he is coming to MY house on Friday night.
I will have him come into back attic room, get naked, ring bell that he
is here and wait for ME to come. he will only get out of attic room to
do chores. I will inspect each job and then have him go back and wait
for next instruction. he hates the attic room and being left alone. he
has been very bad, leaving mold on my bathroom tiles, getting up
whenever he feels like it, not asking etc. we went to a restaurant last
weekend and he even sat down before I was seated.

one thing I have done this week is correct his email. he capitalizes
his name when he signs email....Gerry...he calls himself "I" when
speaking of self and calls ME "you", all lower case. he is being
punished now..for that and everytime he uses a capital for himself he
will be fined a dollar, every time he does not capitalize ME, he will be
fined a dollar.
he loves orally pleasing ME (of course) and he will be made celibate
until he learns the art of being an enhancement to MY LIFE. Dominance
sexually arouses ME (have any other DOMME'S found this to be true--that
when slave is not performing well YOU lose any desire to have that

It sounds to me as if he needs quite a lot of work to become the live-in
slave you want. A question pops into my mind quite unsought: What does he
offer you, that compells you to spend all this time and effort? If he's not
able to adapt to your demands, why not try to find another sub more willing
and suitable?

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:32:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-Id: <199606201932.PAA00499@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:33 PM 6/20/96 -0700, you wrote:
then tell us something about yourself...
PATRICIA
by-the-way:
I have been spending time interviewing possible live-in. he has been
over three weekends now and he just gets worse and worse. This weekend
will be heavy training session. he is very bad, lax, full of himself.
I have had him sign on to this list so he might learn something. his
purpose should be to smooth the waters for ME. he likes to hang out and
watch ME work, etc...

he loves orally pleasing ME (of course) and he will be made celibate
until he learns the art of being an enhancement to MY LIFE. Dominance
sexually arouses ME (have any other DOMME'S found this to be true--that
when slave is not performing well YOU lose any desire to have that
particular sub please YOU?) Maybe I need to get visiting sub for this
weekend....while subgerry learns...I can have fun.

If anyone else has had similar problems and has had successful solution
please let ME know.. and if anyone wants to address subgerry on this
issue he is on the list.
thanks
and Blessed Be
PATRICIA

PARTRICIA- This is just my humble opinion of course, but it seems to me
that he isn't worthy of Your time and training. I would imagine that
some Dommes like a challenge..."I can whip any stubborn sub into
shape and make him mine...", but from what You've said that is not what
You're looking for. I would move on, there are I'm sure many subs who
would love to serve You and enhance Your life in a positive way.

subgerry- Do you have any feelings of submission and/or service, or at
least some level of consideration or respect for Your prospective Lady?
Some people just aren't cut out for a submissive lifestyle.

Submitted cautiously, Paul (maidpaula)




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:26:45 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <31C9DE35.3B6D@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

meretool it is then...boy....
me mentor...( me womantor) come on up to new hampshire...i will find
some uses for you meretoolishness
PATRICIA

Slavem586@aol.com wrote:

Ms. Patricia,

i thank You humbly. i will take the name that you advise, Ma'am. Another
gracious favor, Ma'am ... could you deign to be my Mentor or could You
recommend a
Mentor. Thank You, Ma'am for Your help. And may i say that i envy Your
candidate
slave more than i can say. i will sign tol or meretool, as You like, Ma'am.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:34:07 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Femsuprem name
Message-Id: <9606201534.S816570142@houston.email.net

Patricia wrote of her interview of a live in slave:
This will be his life until he either knows without even thinking (and he
thinks too much) that all he wants to do is make MY life run smoothly, or I
will begin search anew for 24/7 sub male to live with me in new hampshire.
This is REALLY the essence of it all, isn't it? Making the Mistress's
life run more smoothly. That was the greatest appeal to my
Wife/Mistress from day one. The thing that gets her more excited than
anything. The sub deserves NOTHING unless he first improves the
Mistress's life financially, time-wise, effortwise, whatever way she
directs.
One thing I have done this week is correct his email. he capitalizes his
name when he signs email....Gerry...he calls himself "I" when speaking of
self and calls ME "you", all lower case. he is being punished now..for that
and everytime he uses a capital for himself he will be fined a dollar, every
time he does not capitalize ME, he will be fined a dollar.
Wonderful idea, Patricia. My wife, when she is in a discipline mode,
restricts my spending, makes me bring receipts for the smallest item
and takes my cards away from me along with my checkbook. She feels
this "hobbles" me temporarily, to train me to my place. The dollar
idea is an excellent on-line consequence for
Mistresses over their slaves as well (have them mail a check, OR
donate that much money to a WOMAN-based charity of YOUR choice.
he loves orally pleasing ME (of course) and he will be made celibate until he
learns the art of being an enhancement to MY LIFE. Dominance sexually
arouses ME. Maybe I need to get a visiting sub for this weekend....while
subgerry learns...I can have fun.
Well, this is an option. Certainly, my Wife allows me no sexual
gratification unless I please her. EVERYTHING The slave gets should
be EARNED. The idea of a visiting sub --to please you in your bed
while subgerry learns -- is something that more Mistresses should
consider. Nothing serves as a more severe reality check than that.
Great ideas Patricia!
bodie167@houston
.email.net

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:32:57 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <31C9DFA9.271A@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

he has a good heart magnus...a quality I highly prize...
also even if I send him on his way..I feel some responsibility to send
him to whichever DOMME he next comes into contact with...to get a sub
coming from, at least, a better starting point then when I got him...it
is very tiring though and I am at the end of my patience. I don't
particularly enjoy several weekends of this kind of punishment....but as
I said...he has a good heart.
PATRICIA
and why musy you always question me so......bratagain magnus!!!

Magnus Thelander wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:33:54 -0700, Noble wrote:

I have been spending time interviewing possible live-in. he has been
over three weekends now and he just gets worse and worse. This weekend
will be heavy training session. he is very bad, lax, full of himself.
I have had him sign on to this list so he might learn something. his
purpose should be to smooth the waters for ME. he likes to hang out and
watch ME work. this weekend he is coming to MY house on Friday night.
I will have him come into back attic room, get naked, ring bell that he
is here and wait for ME to come. he will only get out of attic room to
do chores. I will inspect each job and then have him go back and wait
for next instruction. he hates the attic room and being left alone. he
has been very bad, leaving mold on my bathroom tiles, getting up
whenever he feels like it, not asking etc. we went to a restaurant last
weekend and he even sat down before I was seated.

one thing I have done this week is correct his email. he capitalizes
his name when he signs email....Gerry...he calls himself "I" when
speaking of self and calls ME "you", all lower case. he is being
punished now..for that and everytime he uses a capital for himself he
will be fined a dollar, every time he does not capitalize ME, he will be
fined a dollar.
he loves orally pleasing ME (of course) and he will be made celibate
until he learns the art of being an enhancement to MY LIFE. Dominance
sexually arouses ME (have any other DOMME'S found this to be true--that
when slave is not performing well YOU lose any desire to have that

It sounds to me as if he needs quite a lot of work to become the live-in
slave you want. A question pops into my mind quite unsought: What does he
offer you, that compells you to spend all this time and effort? If he's not
able to adapt to your demands, why not try to find another sub more willing
and suitable?

---


"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:35:25 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <31C9E03D.5F3F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

thank you maid for your input. subgerry will reply to you, or else.
as I said earlier in post to bratmagnus...I am at the end of MY rope.
PATRICIA


pgm@servtech.com wrote:

At 01:33 PM 6/20/96 -0700, you wrote:
then tell us something about yourself...
PATRICIA
by-the-way:
I have been spending time interviewing possible live-in. he has been
over three weekends now and he just gets worse and worse. This weekend
will be heavy training session. he is very bad, lax, full of himself.
I have had him sign on to this list so he might learn something. his
purpose should be to smooth the waters for ME. he likes to hang out and
watch ME work, etc...

he loves orally pleasing ME (of course) and he will be made celibate
until he learns the art of being an enhancement to MY LIFE. Dominance
sexually arouses ME (have any other DOMME'S found this to be true--that
when slave is not performing well YOU lose any desire to have that
particular sub please YOU?) Maybe I need to get visiting sub for this
weekend....while subgerry learns...I can have fun.

If anyone else has had similar problems and has had successful solution
please let ME know.. and if anyone wants to address subgerry on this
issue he is on the list.
thanks
and Blessed Be
PATRICIA

PARTRICIA- This is just my humble opinion of course, but it seems to me
that he isn't worthy of Your time and training. I would imagine that
some Dommes like a challenge..."I can whip any stubborn sub into
shape and make him mine...", but from what You've said that is not what
You're looking for. I would move on, there are I'm sure many subs who
would love to serve You and enhance Your life in a positive way.

subgerry- Do you have any feelings of submission and/or service, or at
least some level of consideration or respect for Your prospective Lady?
Some people just aren't cut out for a submissive lifestyle.

Submitted cautiously, Paul (maidpaula)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 23:04:14 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Questioning.
Message-Id: <199606202103.XAA29539@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:32:57 -0700, Noble wrote:

he has a good heart magnus...a quality I highly prize...

What does that mean? Would you care to explain?

also even if I send him on his way..I feel some responsibility to send
him to whichever DOMME he next comes into contact with...to get a sub

and why musy you always question me so......bratagain magnus!!!

I didn't understand, why you were doing, what you were doing, so I asked.
You were kind enough to explain, and now I understand a little better.

I have a questioning and curious mind. I can't help it. If I didn't voice
the questions I have, I'll probably go even crazier :). Why do you always
take my questions as personal criticism? To me the questions don't look like
critique of you personally, and I hope you'll trust me, when I say, that
that's definitely not my intention. I honestly don't understand, what I'm
doing wrong here. If you would tell me, I'd have a chance to improve my
behavior.

Magnus Thelander wrote:

It sounds to me as if he needs quite a lot of work to become the live-in
slave you want. A question pops into my mind quite unsought: What does he
offer you, that compells you to spend all this time and effort? If he's not
able to adapt to your demands, why not try to find another sub more willing
and suitable?

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: The God/dess threads
Message-Id: <199606202113.OAA03865@netcom7.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5037

Our story thus far:

Jun 12 David Land (66) Re: motherhood of GOD
Jun 12 To femsupremacy@re (55) Re: the Motherhood of God
Jun 12 peter (56) Re: the Motherhood of God
Jun 13 Thomas Hughes (57) Re: Female Person of the Godhead
Jun 13 David Land (90) Re: Female Person of the Godhead
Jun 18 Jet (53) God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundr
Jun 18 sorceress@CYBEROTI (42) God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundr
Jun 18 Tiresius (78) Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and S
Jun 18 Laura Goodwin (73) Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and S
Jun 18 Jet (47) Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and S
Jun 18 Phoenix (59) Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and S
Jun 19 Thomas Hughes (72) Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #
Jun 20 Brett J Wakefield (81) Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #
Jun 20 Chase Vogelsberg (77)
Jun 20 Laura Goodwin (83) Perceptions of the higher power
Jun 20 Laura Goodwin (71) Re: Perceptions of the higher power

Exciting thread(s), on a topic I now know will return again and again to
this forum, whether we want it to or not. It's human nature to ponder these
issues, for they are central to our lives and to what we discuss here.
I have been impressed by some of the highly personal accounts presented
here, to say the least. We ignore these themes at some cost, even if
they induce a new spate of 'Unsubscribes.'

I join Lawless in asserting there is a line between discussing the sacred
in a general way, or even in a highly personal way (such as the earlier
posts on the list), and =promoting= one's personal witness into the faces
of others. I'm not sure that line has been crossed, but, like Lawless, I'm
feeling a little uneasy about how some things have been said. We're also
wildly off-topic, but no more so than many other themes here.

If there were an Established Church here it would be the SMC or some
form of Goddess-worship, and we with other stories would be benched.
But there isn't, and we're not, and that's because of the generally
tolerant way we've agreed to disagree aound here. After some initial
misundertandings, I have always felt safe in posting =about= my own
religious experience here- it is central fact of my life, and it also
gave me the vision to be here- meaning it's very much on topic- and
hope I have been careful in always labelling it as my own.

If I preach, it's to Christians only, and to proclaim the post-patriarchal
Church. Because I avoid the verb 'believe,' was only born once, worship no
book, am indifferent to immortality -I would rather have Logos- and
experience Jesus as a message (of perfect love, submission and obedience)
rather than either a messenger or mere ethical teacher, I have a very
interesting life. That I choose to illuminate it with silent prayer,
listening to the beauty and terror of nature and regular acts of ritual
cannibalism (i.e., the Mass) is between me and She Who Is- personal.

But I feel free to tell about my own take to anyone, or to attack
intolerance of any kind. The first is myth-telling, the second is
citizenship. (I admit to a problem with hip and trendy nihilism in
its many forms: the word I grew up with is 'cop-out.')

That said, I =have= been impressed by the discussions, and learned
(or affirmed) this:

1. This theme won't go away. One way or another, folks will struggle
to connect with their Archetype. Otherwise, no story.

2. If divinity is experienced in nature, or in awareness, if it's
lifelike, then it has gender(s, maybe dozens).

3. Any deity capable of both creation as we experience it and Grace,
(however understood), is Feminine. Once I had connected with the very
Female (and chaotic) notion of Grace, the patriarchal, phallic concepts
of ethics and immortality seemed both tiny and ludicrous. (As Joseph
Campbell pointed out, life 'everlasting' is silly, but life 'e-ternal' is
outside of time, timeless. If there is immortality, it ain't linear.)

4. Any deity worth Her name may be experienced as Female or Feminine,
however dressed up She might be by circumstances or my nomadic biker chums.
This includes the Christian Trinity, including the palpably male Jesus.

Thanks to Laura for today's dose of daylight, fresh air and sanity. ;]

And to Pierre Teilhard de Chardin for this:

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience,
We are spiritual beings having a human experience."

And to Timberwolf:

"There is always something to cherish."
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:43:41 -0400
From: Slavem586@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Femsuprem name
Message-ID: <960620174340_334485855@emout10.mail.aol.com

Ms. PATRICIA,

i humbly accept my new name which you have graciously given to me. i will
sign off as slave m586 and return as meretool. i will think of You as my
Patroness or Mistress, if that pleases You, Ma'am. Any other instructions
before i sign off as slave m586. Cringing at Your feet, Ma'am ... meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:24:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: God/Goddess?
Message-Id: <199606202224.PAA23494@netcom17.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1501


The overlap between femsupremacy, femdom, and neo-paganism (especially
Wicca) fascinates me.

Please keep saying that! :]

When one of you met me 4 or 5 years ago one hot Labor Day
weekend, I laid on all the hot male questions about 'the life'
and Mistresses and all that, she firmly advised:
'Find the Goddess.'
I sputtered, 'but, but...' and she repeated, 'Find the Goddess.'
Thus began my quest for the Wise Woman's truth behind all the
rest of this, and I have never been sorry.

Just yesterday I came across an interesting bit of Celtic lore. Liban and
Fand, two Irish goddesses of healing and pleasure, "appeared to Cu Chulainn
[a legendary Celtic warrior/hero] in a dream in which they beat him with
horse-whips--but only to teach him a lesson which ended in happines." (From
_Faery Wicca_ by Kisma K. Stepanich.)

Healing and pleasure, indeed.

And so much for Women to reclaim: Kali, Astarte, Coatlicue,
Pele, Tiammat and the Flying Dianas: Artemis, Hekate, Arakhne,
etc. That's all yours. Always was.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: We three kings of Orient are,,,
Message-Id: <199606202336.QAA05128@netcom17.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2486

,,,in fact SAVAK agents, surfing the phenoms.

Brett held forth:

[commentary on]

An interesting interpretation of some "scriptures" (i.e., "writings")

Of course ,,,
,,, Rama was of course killed and resurrected

Of course.

I have no problem with any of this, except that I feel safe in saying
that Jewish soterology (the Messiah visions in this case) was well in
place long before Ashoka's time. Ditto the European pantheons.
And with this:

I've always assumed that Ashoka's missionaries thought the rather
irascible descendents of the desert bandit gangs who assaulted their
neighbors screaming "Yahweh!", the name of their very masculine warrior

They screamed no such thing: the name was so sacred as to never be uttered.
If they 'screamed' anything at all, it was probbaly 'Adonai,' 'Eli' or
'Elohim,' just as their modern cousins called 'Y'allah!' And 'Elohim'
is not only gender-ambiguous, it's _plural_. The OT is filled with these
contending versions, cut and pasted on each other as politics required.
But then the Jews

weren't quite ready for all the complexities of an ancient
civilization's theological permutations.

But then who of us ever is? Not I. ;d

Thank you for the reminder that the West and China have been influenced by
waves of learning originating in India. The effect in the West in Ashoka's
time was the rise of mystery cults of all kinds, with their stories of
slain and rising gods and blood-washing ceremonies- the New Age of the
time, disrupting all the established fire-and-sky religions with their
promises of bliss. A second layer over the old earth-and-Woman religions.
It also worked the other way, beginning with Zoroaster and Alexander,
culminating in Akbar's epitath and ending with British and Marxist
missionaries and, for all these sins, Windows 95. ;P

For myself, I've become most comfortable with the formulations of Master
Lao in the Tao Te Ching, that the Tao which can be named is not the Tao,
neither has It measure nor form...

Cool!
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:47:42 -0700
From: Noble
To: Femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: the goddess holiday
Message-ID: <31CA0D4E.6F1C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

June 21 is the SUMMER SOLSTICE...the longest daylight day of the year.
In Wicca it is the highest, most celebrated holy day.
It is the day when the GODDESS of LIFE wakes from her Winter sleep and
begins the growing of all the plants and food we will need for the year.
It is when Covens meet and dance.
Pagans and Druids feast on food and pleasure...it is a high holiday
indeed and we should all take a moment to praise the Goddess at her
awakening.
PATRICIA

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:58:02 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: God/Goddess?
Message-ID:

FE
FE When one of you met me 4 or 5 years ago one hot Labor Day
FE weekend, I laid on all the hot male questions about 'the life'
FE and Mistresses and all that, she firmly advised:
FE 'Find the Goddess.'
FE I sputtered, 'but, but...' and she repeated, 'Find the Goddess.'
FE Thus began my quest for the Wise Woman's truth behind all the
FE rest of this, and I have never been sorry.
FE
I am blessed to have been a part of this. Thank you--
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #112
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 110

Today's Topics:
Re: confused
Re: BDSM Emblem
Re: BDSM Emblem
Re: BDSM Emblem
Unidentified subject!
God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Re: SMC
Re: Changing Attitudes
God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Re : Emblem
Newsletter Ladies
Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Re: Newsletter Ladies
They just don't get it right...

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 96 13:31:29 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: confused
Message-ID: <960617173129_100410.1764_BHG117-1@CompuServe.COM

FROM: INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com,
INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
TO: (unknown), INTERNET:FEMSUPREMACY@RENAISSOFT.COM
DATE: 17/06/96 13:06
Re: Re: confused
Sender: femsupremacy-requestenaissoft.com Received: from orb.direct.ca
(orb.direct.ca [199.60.229.5]) by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515)
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Message-ID: <31C59BFC.2A9Acuvm.cis.ecu.edu Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:55:08
-0500 From: Peter Sage
University X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To:
femsupremacyenaissoft.com Subject: Re: confused References:
<960614223340_100410.1764_BHG69-2mpuServe.COM Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID:
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Resent-Sender: femsupremacy-requestenaissoft.com

The following message has started to circulate with my name at the
head. Could I just make it clear, that's because I made the first
reply. I am not the original author.

Thanks
Jon Woolven

Original message:
To the Matriarchs, the petition of slave 49442 humbly sheweth that it (that
is
what my current Mistress calls me) is confused. i was disrespectful to my
original Mistress and She released me to another Mistress for intensive
obedience training. my original Mistress said that my servitude to my new
Mistress had to be by mutual consent but my current Mistress seems to believe
that i have no rights or limits. Also, my original Mistress told me that She
could take me back some day but my current Mistress wants me to be Her
property
forever. my original Mistress is kind to me and She has told me to come to Her

for advice. i am confused about who really owns me. slave 49442
i realize this is a very "charged" topic, but i feel i should jump in and
offer my two cents.


___________________________________________________________________ Questions
and comments should be sent to listmasterenaissoft.com. For a list and
description of supported mailing list commands, send mail to
femsupremacy-requestenaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:36:38 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: BDSM Emblem
Message-Id: <199606171736.KAA29262@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

There is a web page (http://www.wizvax.net/multics/dspin.html) that
has some info about what it calls the "BDSM emblem." I have been told
by a local jeweler (of all people) that it's also called the "chaos
wheel,"

Well, it's news to me. I guess anybody can create a symbol and try to
popularize it...run it up the flagpole, see who salutes it. :)

To my knowlege, the only generally accepted symbols of the BDSM tribe
is the black leather wristband, worn on the left if you top, on the
right if you bottom, and the leather pride flag. Gay leatherfolk (and
those who play with them) also use the bandana code...black bandana for
S/M, grey for bondage and s/m lite, etc.

This is in the U.S. I don't know if these are recognized elsewhere.
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:43:30 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: BDSM Emblem
Message-ID: <31C5C372.3945@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have seen this symbol worn as a necklace at one of our new hampshire
munches...we are a capitalist country...I only hope this is someone of
our persuasion who is making money off of it and would certainly like to
see some social responsibility tied to profits...i.e. percentage of
profit put into legal defense fund..for people like that couple in New
York who had their children taken away...because the were into BD.
Patricia

Laura Goodwin wrote:

You wrote:

There is a web page (http://www.wizvax.net/multics/dspin.html) that
has some info about what it calls the "BDSM emblem." I have been told
by a local jeweler (of all people) that it's also called the "chaos
wheel,"

Well, it's news to me. I guess anybody can create a symbol and try to
popularize it...run it up the flagpole, see who salutes it. :)

To my knowlege, the only generally accepted symbols of the BDSM tribe
is the black leather wristband, worn on the left if you top, on the
right if you bottom, and the leather pride flag. Gay leatherfolk (and
those who play with them) also use the bandana code...black bandana for
S/M, grey for bondage and s/m lite, etc.

This is in the U.S. I don't know if these are recognized elsewhere.
--
Laura Goodwin

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:42:15 -0700
From: lanoline
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: BDSM Emblem
Message-ID: <31C641B7.41F@dial.eunet.ch
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Peter,
FYI, the Gynarchy Club has a nice watch that can be weared by Madams
and slaves, it has a nice drawing which i can send you as sample.
By wearing this nice looking watch, it will be obvious / but not
for people unaware. i wear it always and only few people deared
ask to have a close look.. its drawing was made by Sardax who illustrated
several english books.
For more infos give me your private email.
lanoline (propriety of Mistress Danielle, petticoated male9


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:44:50 PST
From: molonj@juno.com (Joseph Molon)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-ID: <19960617.224911.4287.8.molonj@juno.com

I had the same "problem".....
Joe

Please find herewith the URL of the Demonia magazine.


http://www.domina.fr/

I chose the English version, but I still got the French. Seems to be
a
defunct server.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:43:53 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Message-ID: <31C65E39.2617@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sorceress

Pointing to the top point of the triangle, she said "This is the
Father," then she pointed to the left point and said "...this is the
son," and to the right point "...and this is the Holy Ghost." I asked
her "How did the mommy die?" Maried didn't understand. "Mommy? What
Mommy?" I told her if there were a Father, and a Son, there must be a
girl too, to be the Mommy. She SNORTED at me and said "No. No. There
IS no Mommy! There is no GIRL!" And that was the end of Catholocism
for me, right then and there. A system that was so obviously defunct
and blind to the realities of the world and life as I knew it as a 6
year old, could not possibly be TRUE!

That is a very interesting way to explain religion... But I think your
question is more to the point, How did the mommy die? I have thought
for many years that whatever the higher power was, it was a non-gender
spirit... but over the last 2 years, I've felt the God/GOddess is
actually an hermaphrodite. Just a thought.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 04:28:47 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: SMC
Message-ID: <31C692EF.792F@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura--

Members who don't live near the church or the sanctuary can still
recieve the newsletter and recieve counseling, etc. via phone, letter
and email.

I would enjoy receiving the newsletter very much...What is your
donation requirement?

Also, what is the significance of the pix below?
--------------- ---------------
---------------------- ----------------------
------------------------- --------------------------
--------------------------- ---------------------------
----------------- I I -----------------------
-------------- = O = --------------------
------------- I I -----------------
-------------- ------------------
-----------------------------------
--------------------------
------------------
------------
------
---
-

Thanks!

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:55:41 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-ID: <31C6C36D.3D83@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jon Woolven wrote:

Thanks for your thought provoking reply Jet. I'll do my best to respond.

Thank you, Jon.


Jon's response--
It's a lovely thought. She's very powerful and dominates both our organisation
and
her boyfriend in a very feminine way. Her determination and strength of will is
incredible. I have a convenient excuse though. She doesn't have access to the
Net
yet.

Sounds like it is time to start working on getting her a computer (1) and teaching
her the tricks of the trade (so to speak :)) (2). She does sound incredible though.

Jon's response--
Except for a few male underlings to do the dirty work perhaps?

Sounds great to me! ;P

Jon's reply--
Most of all I enjoy boosting the confidence of the young women in the team. To
help them
grow, prosper and feel more powerful is the most incredibly rewarding
experience.

That's terrific! It will help them immensely if they have power in their own
right and it will 'serve' them for the rest of their lives. You are doing a
very good service with this, Jon.

Jon's reply--
I'm very fulfilled where I am and don't want to move. We're building our
organisation
into something pretty amazing and I wish I could elaborate more.
My boss knows my feelings about recruitment. She's an expert on reading body
language
and I can't hide much from her. We both agree we should always hire the best
candidate.
It's only a matter of how we react about the gender of the successful person.

It sounds very nice... Most women I know have an innate (sp?) way of knowing
things (body language not dismissed)...it's almost psychic in how they pick
those nuances up and work with them... You are a lucky man to work for such a
woman.

Please don't think she's anti-female in any way, quite the opposite, but she
prefers a
gender mix in the workplace.

I don't think that at all. What I was thinking was more in this context: that
in preserving a non-discriminating atmosphere, she was missing the bigger
picture, but I see that was not a correct assumption on my part. She definitely
has her priorities and can appreciate it, but I still think a woman-majority
workplace is kind of nice.

I suppose the big variable is how we decide on the best candidate. What biases
and preconceptions do we bring to bear? In my case, a woman has a head start
because I am in awe of female wisdom.

Very true.

Thanks, Jon, for enlightening me... I appreciate that very much. I may be
hiring people to work for me in the future and this will all come in handy.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:59:30 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Message-ID:

FEThat is a very interesting way to explain religion... But I think your
FEquestion is more to the point, How did the mommy die? I have thought
FEfor many years that whatever the higher power was, it was a non-gender
FEspirit... but over the last 2 years, I've felt the God/GOddess is
FEactually an hermaphrodite. Just a thought.

FEJet

Thank you for your response. I am in agreement with you. If I am to
have a god at all, it must be a god of all genders or a god of no
gender. I worship the creative force of the universe, and i believe
that whatever it is can truly be accessed--but God, the *Creator* must
be female, and God, the Destroyer, must be male...
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:48:51 -0400
From: tiresius@magnet.ca (Tiresius)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Message-Id: <9606181548.AA16308@python.magnet.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

That is a very interesting way to explain religion... But I think your
question is more to the point, How did the mommy die? I have thought
for many years that whatever the higher power was, it was a non-gender
spirit... but over the last 2 years, I've felt the God/GOddess is
actually an hermaphrodite. Just a thought.


Regarding the "sexuality" of this "Higher Being," there are at least
4 possibilities; Female, Male, Hermaphrodite, or Asexual. The latter seems
most appropriate.

I once came across an AmerIndian legend of the creation of Man and
Woman. I've forgotten most of the words. (Particularly where I used the
word "human.")


WANG

... created a "human." But "human" was alone and lonely, so "human"
was cleaved into two, one named "female" and the other "male." Each "human"
was given an equal length of Wang to "sew up" their open bellies where they
were cleaved.

"Male" (as males typically do) sewed quickly with large bites, which
left a more predominant linear scar down his belly (the linea alba of men),
and had so Wang left over dangling between his legs.

"Female"(as females typically do) sewed with greater precision and
finesse (thus no linea alba, or at least less prominent), but ran out of
Wang, leaving an unsewned portion bewteen her legs.

"Female" asked "Male" to cut off his excess Wang and give it to her,
so she could complete her sewing.

"Male" naturally refused...

And ever since, "Female" has been chasing "Male" for his bit of
Wang, that he continues to refuse to give her, but will only lend her for
short periods of time.


Best wishes to all,


Tiresius@Magnet.ca

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:36:48 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Message-Id: <199606181636.JAA02160@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

Tiresius wrote:

Regarding the "sexuality" of this "Higher Being," there are at least
4 possibilities; Female, Male, Hermaphrodite, or Asexual.

In my religion, I worship a Goddess _and_ God. The Goddess is the
Mother of the universe and the supreme deity, but She loves and
cherishes Her male aspect, the God, who is not only her son, but the
only one worthy to be Her lover.

The myth goes like this: In the beginning the Goddess was alone and
all was dark. To amuse Herself she curved space into a mirror within
which she could admire Her own reflection. She fell in love with the
image there, and so longed to embrace one like Herself that at last the
God was formed of Her desire. They embrace eternally, and the energy
of their love gives rise to all the uncounted creatures and things,
which are their children, and the substance of all being.

What's nice about this myth is there is no war between the sexes, no
fall from grace, no separation between heaven and earth. There is
nothing from which to be saved. The God is like the Goddess, yet
opposite Her, being Her reflection come to life. They are not
opponants, they are lovers: they fit together perfectly. She has the
power to give and take life, and the God trusts Her completely. He is
classically known as the Reborn One, because He is the God who dies and
is continually reborn. He gets His life from Her, and gives His life
to Her. Love gives rise to pleasure, but even the Goddess knows pain,
the pain of loneliness, the pain of giving birth...so pain is not evil,
it's part of life. In my religion, ignorance and the laws of nature
are the cause of pain...one which can be corrected, one which must be
accepted. There is no evil.

I believe that pain combined with pleasure teaches something
fundamental about the mystery of life, therefore S/M is sacred to me.


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:42:40 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Message-ID: <31C722D0.105E@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tiresius--

Thank you so much for the Indian legend... I am very much an admirer
of how they 'ruled' the earth.

Jet



And ever since, "Female" has been chasing "Male" for his bit of
Wang, that he continues to refuse to give her, but will only lend her for
short periods of time.

Wow... Who would have thought!?! ;

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 96 18:26:56 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Re : Emblem
Message-ID: <960618222656_101342.2030_GHW124-1@CompuServe.COM

I recall viewing this emblem on a net surfing expedition awhile ago. It is
round, and is best described as a curly anti-nuclear campaign badge. It is an
upside down *Y* but all the lines are curved. As I recall, it represents the
three *states* of BDSM, unfortunately, I cannot remember what they are !!

What was not apparent was how you recognise the desired status of the wearer.
This must have lead to a lot of confusion !! Imagine the heated conversation
between two bottoms trying to decide who does what and to whom !!

Dennis (T.O.M)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:24:45 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Newsletter Ladies
Message-ID: <31C6E65D.65CB@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It's a priviledge to read the intelligent articulate comments of the
awesome ladies in our newsletter. Is it just me or are we fantastically
lucky just to be able to participate by reading, enjoying and responding
to the intellectual, and visual stimulation you all give us on a daily
basis. The world has truly become a wonderful, female realm. Loving my
humble, happy know my place life! Thanks Ladies for being you!!

Tom, Spirit on the Wind

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:09:29 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: God/Goddess? (was Various and Sundry...)
Message-Id: <199606190509.WAA25633@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura Goodwin wrote:

In my religion, I worship a Goddess _and_ God. The Goddess is the
Mother of the universe and the supreme deity, but She loves and
cherishes Her male aspect, the God, who is not only her son, but the
only one worthy to be Her lover.


I believe that pain combined with pleasure teaches something
fundamental about the mystery of life, therefore S/M is sacred to me.



The overlap between femsupremacy, femdom, and neo-paganism (especially
Wicca) fascinates me. Like Laura, I worship the Goddess and the God--and I
also believe that S/M can be a sacred act.

Just yesterday I came across an interesting bit of Celtic lore. Liban and
Fand, two Irish goddesses of healing and pleasure, "appeared to Cu Chulainn
[a legendary Celtic warrior/hero] in a dream in which they beat him with
horse-whips--but only to teach him a lesson which ended in happines." (From
_Faery Wicca_ by Kisma K. Stepanich.)



-- Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:08:22 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Newsletter Ladies
Message-ID: <31C7B576.1465@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Wicca greeting and leaving is "Blessed Be"
that covers how we all feel to have found and participate in this
special place.
Patricia


Thomas Hughes wrote:

It's a priviledge to read the intelligent articulate comments of the
awesome ladies in our newsletter. Is it just me or are we fantastically
lucky just to be able to participate by reading, enjoying and responding
to the intellectual, and visual stimulation you all give us on a daily
basis. The world has truly become a wonderful, female realm. Loving my
humble, happy know my place life! Thanks Ladies for being you!!

Tom, Spirit on the Wind

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:21:41 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: They just don't get it right...
Message-ID: <8453071719061996/A03527/DALEK/11A69C473500*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A69C473500

From our local rag about a great female politician Jenny Shipley (Minister of
Health):


"I think she would be a the best prime minister we could have - she's like
Winston Peters - lots of strength."

However, Waikanae's Myra Thompson had some reservations about seeing Mrs
Shipley in the top job. "A husband and a wife are needed to run a country. It
is one of those jobs where you must have the wife there in attendance when it
is necessary." she said

Now Myra, that seems like a double edged insult. A wife is only there as an
ornament when required and a woman can't be a prime minister because she hasn't
a wife. Huh? My advice to Myra - wake up and the smell the coffee this is the
90s not the 1800s. And to Sarah, can't a woman be strong because she is?

Tracey

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #110
************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 124

Today's Topics:
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Trying to Understand
Why? (Was: Re: Trying to Understand)
Re: Why? (Was: Re: Trying to Understand)
Slowly Understanding
Re: Trying to Understand
traceys last post
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: traceys last post
Re: traceys last post
Please don't leave, Patricia
Re: Trying to Understand

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:07:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606280307.UAA27293@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2186

Responding to Tracey's

I am trying to
understand an existence like this. I also can't comprehend how a man would
want to be treated this way.

Peter wrote [in part]

2)Who cares?
As John Lennon said: "Whatever gets you through the night ....."

Peter, this isn't a flame, and I enjoy your posts and insights, but
your response 2) really surprised me.

I care. I care very passionately. This is one of the central riddles of
of my life. I went to war to get away from it, and spent the next 15 years
hiding from it in a bottle, and the next 10 trying to find a woman loving
enough to beat me senseless to let it out (whatever 'it' is). But until I
find some answers -such as the few I have already found out of pain and
denial- I will never be able to say 'I am' with a sense of wholeness.

I must confess to a real sense of alienation -not so much here as
elsewhere- when I hear people refer to Rough Sex and Heavy Manners as 'play'
and 'scenes.' This is not for me any kind of a game at all- it's about
who I am, and it's about real life. Joyful? Yes, but only when I meet a
woman who really understands -as do almost all in present company and several
off camera- that this is more than a game for bored yuppie tourists.

Special gratitude is due to Laura and others who have shown me the
connection between pain, powerlessness and the sacred, and to She who
holds up the mirror when I scream and beg for her. But I still have a long,
long way to go, may miles yet in pitch blackness.

'get me through the night?' Not hardly. Not yet.

Yeah, I care. And I suspect I'm neither unique nor alone in this.

Tracey cares, or she wouldn't have asked.
Patricia cares, or she wouldn't have gone livid. :]

Peace. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:04:20 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-ID: <31D383F4.1AFE@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Actually I am a red head and livid is not too long a walk for me. I get
some sense that I may seem to some as being inappropriately upset. I
don't mind answering questions or helping someone understand. But the
tone of questions is what makes me feel like the request is respectful.
Something in the tone of Traceys question struck me a very judgemental.
Students who want to learn are one thing. Students who have made a
negative judgement before they have even heard the answer are another
thing...
I trust my instincts...my instincts said watch out...so I am watching
out.
Patricia

Coyote Sings wrote:

Responding to Tracey's

I am trying to
understand an existence like this. I also can't comprehend how a man would
want to be treated this way.

Peter wrote [in part]

2)Who cares?
As John Lennon said: "Whatever gets you through the night ....."

Peter, this isn't a flame, and I enjoy your posts and insights, but
your response 2) really surprised me.

I care. I care very passionately. This is one of the central riddles of
of my life. I went to war to get away from it, and spent the next 15 years
hiding from it in a bottle, and the next 10 trying to find a woman loving
enough to beat me senseless to let it out (whatever 'it' is). But until I
find some answers -such as the few I have already found out of pain and
denial- I will never be able to say 'I am' with a sense of wholeness.

I must confess to a real sense of alienation -not so much here as
elsewhere- when I hear people refer to Rough Sex and Heavy Manners as 'play'
and 'scenes.' This is not for me any kind of a game at all- it's about
who I am, and it's about real life. Joyful? Yes, but only when I meet a
woman who really understands -as do almost all in present company and several
off camera- that this is more than a game for bored yuppie tourists.

Special gratitude is due to Laura and others who have shown me the
connection between pain, powerlessness and the sacred, and to She who
holds up the mirror when I scream and beg for her. But I still have a long,
long way to go, may miles yet in pitch blackness.

'get me through the night?' Not hardly. Not yet.

Yeah, I care. And I suspect I'm neither unique nor alone in this.

Tracey cares, or she wouldn't have asked.
Patricia cares, or she wouldn't have gone livid. :]

Peace. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:12:11 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

What I meant by "who cares," is that one shouldn't worry about why they are
dominant or submissive; or worry about why they are dominant or submissive.
If they find a willing partner, then go for it. Live life to the fullest
and enjoy ... and don't worry about what other's think ... as long as
you're not bothering them.
Peter

Coyote wrote:

Responding to Tracey's

I am trying to
understand an existence like this. I also can't comprehend how a man would
want to be treated this way.

Peter wrote [in part]

2)Who cares?
As John Lennon said: "Whatever gets you through the night ....."

Peter, this isn't a flame, and I enjoy your posts and insights, but
your response 2) really surprised me.

I care. I care very passionately. This is one of the central riddles of
of my life. I went to war to get away from it, and spent the next 15 years
hiding from it in a bottle, and the next 10 trying to find a woman loving
enough to beat me senseless to let it out (whatever 'it' is). But until I
find some answers -such as the few I have already found out of pain and
denial- I will never be able to say 'I am' with a sense of wholeness.

I must confess to a real sense of alienation -not so much here as
elsewhere- when I hear people refer to Rough Sex and Heavy Manners as 'play'
and 'scenes.' This is not for me any kind of a game at all- it's about
who I am, and it's about real life. Joyful? Yes, but only when I meet a
woman who really understands -as do almost all in present company and several
off camera- that this is more than a game for bored yuppie tourists.

Special gratitude is due to Laura and others who have shown me the
connection between pain, powerlessness and the sacred, and to She who
holds up the mirror when I scream and beg for her. But I still have a long,
long way to go, may miles yet in pitch blackness.

'get me through the night?' Not hardly. Not yet.

Yeah, I care. And I suspect I'm neither unique nor alone in this.

Tracey cares, or she wouldn't have asked.
Patricia cares, or she wouldn't have gone livid. :]

Peace. :)




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 06:44:41 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Why? (Was: Re: Trying to Understand)
Message-Id: <199606280444.GAA14369@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

Tracey wrote [in part]:

I also can't comprehend how a man would want to be treated this way.

For my part, not a clue. I crave it, as do most of the men here, but
I have no answers at all. Some guesses, but no answers. None. One of my
most basic drives (of 3 or 4), but not the faintest glimmer. 'Women know,
the men may wonder.' Believe it.

That goes for me too, and not understanding why is damn annoying! :)

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:47:38 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: Trying to Understand)
Message-ID: <31D38E1A.2409@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yours is not to reason why...yours is but to do and try and do and try
and do and do and do...
(@) (@)
c
\_____/
Patricia

Magnus Thelander wrote:


That goes for me too, and not understanding why is damn annoying! :)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 17:41:24 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Slowly Understanding
Message-ID: <0117411728061996/A03925/DALEK/11A6E4691000*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A6E4691000

I didn't expect such a heated response from you Patricia, I didn't mean to
offend you. I simply chose your response because I was using it as a
comparative to other posts, like Laura's, which is another perspective.

I am not in a sub-domm relationship. The only domm relationships I have had,
have been forced. Perhaps this is the reason why I am having trouble
understanding that people have this sort of lifestyle and actually pursue and
enjoy being in one. Patricia mentioned that there are women who like being the
sub to their dominating male. I truly didn't realise that women would choose
to be in a situation like this. As I said, my experiences weren't wonderful,
they were downright horrid. And if a woman wants this sort of thing, well of
course I won't understand.

So, if a woman was a sub to a domm male, does she like being beaten, enjoys
being humiliated, and receiving punishment? Belitttling may have been the
wrong choice of word in my last post, but how else would you term having
someone sit on the ground, next to a cafe table, feeding him scraps if he is
lucky?

This list is my very first exposure to this sort of activity. I want to take
the opportunity to broaden my horizons but I don't want to if it means I going
to be flamed because of my ignorance. And how am I meant to learn if I don't
jump in and ask?

Tracey
Striving for Knowledge

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:53:03 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606280553.WAA13714@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Coyote Sings wrote (in part):

I must confess to a real sense of alienation -not so much here as
elsewhere- when I hear people refer to Rough Sex and Heavy Manners as 'play'
and 'scenes.' This is not for me any kind of a game at all- it's about
who I am, and it's about real life. Joyful? Yes, but only when I meet a
woman who really understands -as do almost all in present company and several
off camera- that this is more than a game for bored yuppie tourists.

Special gratitude is due to Laura and others who have shown me the
connection between pain, powerlessness and the sacred, and to She who
holds up the mirror when I scream and beg for her. But I still have a long,
long way to go, may miles yet in pitch blackness.


I just wanted to say that I hope I didn't add to any sense of alienation
with my post (I'm not even sure if you'd read it yet when composing your
response to Peter). I referred to D/s relationships using the phrase "play"
in trying to explain something to Tracey in a way I thought might be easily
understood. I also tried to get across to her the sense that it is something
basic in our natures (from whence I certainly do not know) that makes us
respond as we do.

I cited the rule of "safe, sane, and consensual" in my post, but I believe
that in life the true bottom line is "consensual." My shamanic training has
sometimes led to states that were neither safe nor sane, and yet they were
right and necessary. I get the feeling that you may operate on a similar
level when it comes to Femdom. If so, I definitely respect this.

I DO think that it's possible to be playful without being "a bored yuppie
tourist." And of course bored yuppie tourists will soon get bored all over
again and leave!

Let me also take this opportunity to say that your posts are illuminating,
thoughtful, and thought-provoking. I always enjoy reading them :)

--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:46:46 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: traceys last post
Message-ID: <31D3AA06.1944@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I cannot reply to traceys posts by returning what she wrote back in
return mail...I am feeling very uncomfortable about this. whoever you
are Tracey, your email is coming from the Treasury Department of the
U.S. government.
I am most uneasy about all the places that it bounces too and the
security that is wrapped around each of the addresses. For that reason
I am unsubscribing from this list. I would be careful all of you...I
will miss you...but I am not taking any chances.....take care
I have this sense that we are being pumped for information..that can be
used..for what reason I do not know...but I do not trust the U.S.
Government or people who cannot be identified....The treasury dept is
one of the worst....
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:24:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606280724.AAA11771@netcom5.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2323

Peter wrote:

What I meant by "who cares," is that one shouldn't worry about why they are
dominant or submissive; or worry about why they are dominant or submissive.
If they find a willing partner, then go for it. Live life to the fullest
and enjoy ... and don't worry about what other's think ... as long as
you're not bothering them.

[more calmly now]

With I hope more light and less heat than in my earlier post, Peter, I
still have to assert that some of us really need to get an understanding,
or a least a clearer view, of why we are like this. It means a lot to
know if I am 'hard wired' this way, or am I dancing to the tune played by
some unknown demon (in the Jungian sense) from my past. Is it the the real
me, or are there dues to pay? Is it me, or is it my shadow? I need to
know, so I can know how to honor it.

'going for it' also involves going places well outside the visible BDSM
community- I've never really gone into it except to touch it here- to some
really scary places where the 'safe, sane and consensual' canon hardly
applies. I have to walk very carefully, stop to listen a lot, and keep my
eyes open.

The question before me is always this: 'Am I [through this powerful woman]
connecting with something really profound, or am I just self-destructing?'
Since I'm betting not only the farm but the farmer, it's a valid question.

I agree with you completely about the public position: it really is no
one's else's business, and we really can enjoy, once we know where we are.

Thanks to all for putting up with some of my old baggage: come sundown,
it's still my responsibility to deal with it. ;]
Thanks to the women who have taught me to trust.
Thanks to Patricia for getting some color in her face. ;9
Thanks to Peter for test-firing one of my main thrusters, and
thanks to Tracey for asking the tough questions.

Shalom
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:53:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606280753.AAA14472@netcom5.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2462

Phoenix wrote:

I just wanted to say that I hope I didn't add to any sense of alienation
with my post (I'm not even sure if you'd read it yet when composing your
response to Peter). I referred to D/s relationships using the phrase "play"

No, Ma'am: You did not. Thank you for the thought, though. :)

(It's the term that vexes me at times- not the speaker. Usually here
when the terms is used, the locutrix provides a lot of context up
front. Not so 'out there.' Besides, I should start learning to deal
with it like the grown-up I hope to be some day. ;p )

I also tried to get across to her the sense that it is something
basic in our natures (from whence I certainly do not know) that makes us
respond as we do.

'Hard wiring.' God/dess, I hope you're right, I really do.
Not just some late 20th Century fluke we're all caught up in.

My shamanic training has
sometimes led to states that were neither safe nor sane, and yet they were
right and necessary. I get the feeling that you may operate on a similar
level when it comes to Femdom. If so, I definitely respect this.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Ahaaaaaaaa |)
This is where it all comes together.
'neither safe nor sane,,,yet right and necessary.'
It =is= right. It =is= necessary.
Yes: that's my level, all right. Thank you.

This is what Sorceress meant when she came to Phoenix (the city)
and told me 'Find the Goddess.'

And I definitely respect you Shamans, you Wise Women, for the
incredible risks you take. Very few men in our culture- if any-
can go there. Which is why we should heed you.

I DO think that it's possible to be playful without being "a bored yuppie
tourist." And of course bored yuppie tourists will soon get bored all over
again and leave!

Insh'allah!

Let me also take this opportunity to say that your posts are illuminating,
thoughtful, and thought-provoking. I always enjoy reading them :)

Thank you. This isn't helping my 'seeming humility' one bit,
but thank you. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 03:23:18 -0700
From: Brett Wakefield
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: traceys last post
Message-ID: <31D3B296.2684@slip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noble wrote:

I cannot reply to traceys posts by returning what she wrote back in
return mail...I am feeling very uncomfortable about this. whoever you
are Tracey, your email is coming from the Treasury Department of the
U.S. government.
I am most uneasy about all the places that it bounces too and the
security that is wrapped around each of the addresses. For that reason
I am unsubscribing from this list. I would be careful all of you...I
will miss you...but I am not taking any chances.....take care
I have this sense that we are being pumped for information..that can be
used..for what reason I do not know...but I do not trust the U.S.
Government or people who cannot be identified....The treasury dept is
one of the worst....
Patricia


Hmmmm....

Is this accurate?

I thought Ms. Nicholls had identified herself as part of a group advising
New Zealand govt. And her e-mail address is "@tsy.treasury.govt.nz"
which is indeed the email address for the Treasury dept. of the New
Zealand govt.

I feel as sceptical RE: U.S. govt as many do, but about the New Zealand
govt, I have very different, and much more positive respect, not least
for standing up to Unk Sam during cold war and forbidding entrance of
nuclear armed vessels into NZ ports.

Brett

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 13:25:03 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: traceys last post
Message-Id: <199606281124.NAA08347@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:46:46 -0700, Noble wrote:

I cannot reply to traceys posts by returning what she wrote back in
return mail...I am feeling very uncomfortable about this. whoever you
are Tracey, your email is coming from the Treasury Department of the
U.S. government.

I thought it was coming from the New Zealand treasury department.

security that is wrapped around each of the addresses. For that reason
I am unsubscribing from this list. I would be careful all of you...I

Sorry to see you go, Patricia :(.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:41:20 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Please don't leave, Patricia
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I agree. From private emailings from Tracey, I know she is from New
Zealand. I hope this clarifies matters for Patricia and that she remains
here.
Peter

Noble wrote:

I cannot reply to traceys posts by returning what she wrote back in
return mail...I am feeling very uncomfortable about this. whoever you
are Tracey, your email is coming from the Treasury Department of the
U.S. government.
I am most uneasy about all the places that it bounces too and the
security that is wrapped around each of the addresses. For that reason
I am unsubscribing from this list. I would be careful all of you...I
will miss you...but I am not taking any chances.....take care
I have this sense that we are being pumped for information..that can be
used..for what reason I do not know...but I do not trust the U.S.
Government or people who cannot be identified....The treasury dept is
one of the worst....
Patricia


Hmmmm....

Is this accurate?

I thought Ms. Nicholls had identified herself as part of a group advising
New Zealand govt. And her e-mail address is "@tsy.treasury.govt.nz"
which is indeed the email address for the Treasury dept. of the New
Zealand govt.

I feel as sceptical RE: U.S. govt as many do, but about the New Zealand
govt, I have very different, and much more positive respect, not least
for standing up to Unk Sam during cold war and forbidding entrance of
nuclear armed vessels into NZ ports.

Brett



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:48:16 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Coyote:
I understand your need to find out why you are what you are. Everyone has
thoughts like that. What I'm saying is do whatever is necessary to make you
be a better person. Do all the research you wish. Talk to as many people as
you wish.
More power to you.
Personally, I really don't care as to why I am what I am. My emotional
makeup doesn't bother anyone else and it doesn't bother me. So, I'm happy.
I don't care what led me to be the person that I am today. And I don't care
what type of person other people are, as long as they don't bother others.
Just enjoy life, Coyote. I really hate using cliches, but "I'm here for a
good time, not a long time."
Peter


Peter wrote:

What I meant by "who cares," is that one shouldn't worry about why they are
dominant or submissive; or worry about why they are dominant or submissive.
If they find a willing partner, then go for it. Live life to the fullest
and enjoy ... and don't worry about what other's think ... as long as
you're not bothering them.

[more calmly now]

With I hope more light and less heat than in my earlier post, Peter, I
still have to assert that some of us really need to get an understanding,
or a least a clearer view, of why we are like this. It means a lot to
know if I am 'hard wired' this way, or am I dancing to the tune played by
some unknown demon (in the Jungian sense) from my past. Is it the the real
me, or are there dues to pay? Is it me, or is it my shadow? I need to
know, so I can know how to honor it.

'going for it' also involves going places well outside the visible BDSM
community- I've never really gone into it except to touch it here- to some
really scary places where the 'safe, sane and consensual' canon hardly
applies. I have to walk very carefully, stop to listen a lot, and keep my
eyes open.

The question before me is always this: 'Am I [through this powerful woman]
connecting with something really profound, or am I just self-destructing?'
Since I'm betting not only the farm but the farmer, it's a valid question.

I agree with you completely about the public position: it really is no
one's else's business, and we really can enjoy, once we know where we are.

Thanks to all for putting up with some of my old baggage: come sundown,
it's still my responsibility to deal with it. ;]
Thanks to the women who have taught me to trust.
Thanks to Patricia for getting some color in her face. ;9
Thanks to Peter for test-firing one of my main thrusters, and
thanks to Tracey for asking the tough questions.

Shalom


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #124
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 125

Today's Topics:
Re: Slowly Understanding
Re: traceys last post
Perversion (Re: Not Your Average Mom)
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: I am livid
More than play (Was Re Trying to Understand)
Re: Slowly Understanding
I'm BACK
Re: More than play
Consent
Re: The 'SMC' Chant
Re: Slowly Understanding
Re: I'm BACK
Re: I'm BACK

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:02:05 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Slowly Understanding
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'm a relative newcomer to newsgroups but have read a bit about protocol in
these things. From my understanding, flaming is a common problem.
This is really, too bad. I made two responses that prompted what I
considered to be flames from other people. And I have flamed other people.
In fact, one of those people was Tracey. However, in both cases, we patched
things up and we're on good terms.

It's really too bad that we all couldn't be together physically to carry on
discussions. That way we could hear the person, hear the inflection in
their voice, etc. and quickly clarify anything that was misunderstood by
somebody else.

But, obviously that can't happen.

In the meantime, I hope everyone realizes that all others here are
basically decent people with common interests. If someone does have a
problem, with what someone else says, asking gently for a clarification
will do.

It's takes just as much time and trouble to be a nice person, as it does an
asshole.

And Patricia, please, I am not directing this at you. I am just as guilty
as anyone else of sending heated responses.

Peter



I didn't expect such a heated response from you Patricia, I didn't mean to
offend you. I simply chose your response because I was using it as a
comparative to other posts, like Laura's, which is another perspective.

I am not in a sub-domm relationship. The only domm relationships I have had,
have been forced. Perhaps this is the reason why I am having trouble
understanding that people have this sort of lifestyle and actually pursue and
enjoy being in one. Patricia mentioned that there are women who like being the
sub to their dominating male. I truly didn't realise that women would choose
to be in a situation like this. As I said, my experiences weren't wonderful,
they were downright horrid. And if a woman wants this sort of thing, well of
course I won't understand.

So, if a woman was a sub to a domm male, does she like being beaten, enjoys
being humiliated, and receiving punishment? Belitttling may have been the
wrong choice of word in my last post, but how else would you term having
someone sit on the ground, next to a cafe table, feeding him scraps if he is
lucky?

This list is my very first exposure to this sort of activity. I want to take
the opportunity to broaden my horizons but I don't want to if it means I going
to be flamed because of my ignorance. And how am I meant to learn if I don't
jump in and ask?

Tracey
Striving for Knowledge




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 05:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: traceys last post
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Patricia,

I would hate to see you leave our group over what appears to be a
simple misunderstanding. Your posts contribute very much to our
knowledge and their absence would be a definite loss to all of us.
Please reconsider your decision.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:31:14 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Perversion (Re: Not Your Average Mom)
Message-Id: <199606281331.GAA08778@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

This whole idea of this being a perversion is up-side-down logic.
What is more perverted..to be a woman who knows how she can reach
multiple..or even a single orgasm....who cannot, or is not allowed to
tell her partner how it is done (because it might damage his ego) and
therefore lives her whole life with him never reaching orgasm during
sexual relations with him..or the woman who tells the man how its done
and the man who follows her instructions. I would say the former is
perversion, the latter is healthy.
Patricia

Well, *of course* I agree with you, Patricia; the idea of women's
pleasure being unimportant is the true perversion.

Still, in a Patriarchal social construct where the norm is woman
unimportant/man important, people who treat women like equals or
betters represent a "perversion" of the accepted norm (which, as
everyone here knows, is not really normal, but in itself represents a
perversion of the natural norm).

Here is how it is that people who think themselves normal and wise can
proudly affirm that they are "perverts". We knowingly rebel against
the prescribed norm, and feel good doing it. :) This in itself, the
urge to rebel against that which is stupid and wrong, is not criminal,
but is one of the truly noble impulses. :) Therefore I say that those
with the courage to buck the tide are a better sort of person. :)


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606281354.GAA26205@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sound and fury, chaos and dissent, confusion an' paranoia, and even some
enlightening stuff.... All this, without any instigating by me? ;-
Going back to Tracey's original post:

Tracey wrote:
I have had male dominated relationships but the belittling has never
been to this extent. I can't ever imagine a man thinking about having
his woman sitting on the ground being treated like a pet. Why is it so
different when a woman dominates.

If by "male dominated" you mean the man unilaterally decided he was the
one in charge, the one whose wants and desires were the ones which really
mattered, that's something I'd consider a broken relationship, not a D/s
one. It happens the other way around too, more rarely, where the woman
simply walks all over her mate and takes advantage of him (or her). It's
generally a matter of selfishness and self-centeredness on the 'dominant'
partners side, I think....

Which is totally different from how D/s relationships tend to be entered
into, and run. Here, the people involved communicate and negotiate, and
if one of them is in charge, it's because the other person desires it that
way, and, optimally, it's set up so that both of them are happy, both of
them get their needs met.

So far as things being different, when a woman dominates.... I don't think
there is a difference, not in the way you're suggesting. I've watched a
good friend kneel, her knees on a hardwood floor as she phoned her lover /
master, and talked with her about how he did treat her like a pet, having
her sit on the floor naked at his feet, treating her very much as Patricia
had described. An' while it was a form of treatment that I wouldn't desire,
my friend -loved- it, loved being given casual orders, rules to obey, having
things forbidden to her. It was what -she- wanted in the relationship, and
the male dominant treated her as she wanted, -because- she wanted it that
way.

Where I think perhaps you're confused is in mistaking it as a question of
gender, and equating a D/s relationship with one-sided, in my opinion near
abusive vanilla ones....

As far as there being a difference - I do see one, between women Dommes and
male Doms, and its this. (Those easily avoiding by blanket statements, pls
skip to end of paragraph
simply as a way to further the typical man-centric one-sided relationship.
As a Dom, they can order the woman around, tell her when and how to sexually
satisfy him without worrying about -her- satisfactions, instruct her to do
all the household chores - and be lionized for it. "He really knows how to
keep his slave in her place. What a dom!"

As I said - that's a generalization, and in a sense an ugly one for me to
make. I -do- know quite a few dominant guys who aren't like that, but in
my experience they're outnumbered. Yes, it's a prejudice of mine, but
it's actually that I take a dismal view of humanity in general, without
blindly looking down on the specific individuals.

I also can't comprehend how a man would want to be treated this way.

I'm not much of one for humiliation or belittlement myself, but there's a
number of reasons why some people are. Probably the biggest is that it
makes some people hot, excites them sexually. Many submissives, male or
female, find -some- kinds of humiliation to be good, and react very badly
to others. For instance, I know of few who enjoy being called stupid or
ugly, but being naked, having their sexuality discussed, these kinds are
often a totally different matter.

(Side note: Humiliations a very tricky, sensitive matter which many into
D/s won't allow themselves to be involved with, or only with great care.
It's all too easy for the submissive's self esteem to be lowered, or for
them to begin wondering if the dominant really does think of them as
lower life forms.)

As far as being treated like a pet goes, most pets are cherished. A pet
dynamic provides a framework for affection, for praise/reward, for compan-
ionship; it doesn't have to be humiliating at all. (Oh - it also provides
for training and punishment, which are very good things for a number of
people on both ends of the leash
fed morsels from hir plate - yes, it's symbolic of status, but it's also a
very intimate act, or can be.

A woman is usually forced, or tricked into a male dominated relationship
(from personal experiences), but when it's the other way 'round ie, woman
domm, it's the male that seeks this type of relationship too.

Most often it is the male, yes. But I've also seen submissive women active
in attracting a particular dominant's interest, and dominant women actively
stalking/seducing a submissive who's caught their eye. To a large extent,
I think it's a matter of men seeking intimate relationships as a priority,
where women tend to form friendship and affection first, and watch it grow
into a closer bond.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, dark at heart, with a heart of cynicism.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606281411.HAA26981@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lady Phoenix writes:
Elation, release, and affirmation are not qualities found in abusive
relationships. I know, I've been there. Please believe that what my
partner and I share is NOT demeaning to either of us.

Amen to this - meek, browbeaten housewives are typical of relationships in
which one partner is abusively domineering; the archetypical "hen-pecked
husband" is another. Neither display much contentment, joy, or happiness
in their lot in life; usually just a weary acceptance of it.

Contrast this to the pleasure, sexual and otherwise, often found by those
who choose to be involved in D/s, or the peacefulness or euphoria some only
find on the other side of pain.

I can see that Female Domination would be a popular subject on a Female
Supremacy list, but I don't think everyone should feel that they have to
participate personally!

Yep. Even among those here who do make Female Domination a part of their
life, it isn't necessarily the reason we're here. For instance, my belief
is that women would do a better job of governing, in many ways. Caring
about the environment, ensuring the well being of future generations of
children, things male-dominated government and civilization hasn't shown
much interest in. Things I don't think there's much of a future on this
planet without.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Dieing isn't much of a way to make a living....

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:14:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: I am livid
Message-Id: <199606281414.HAA27182@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia wrote:
You belittle women by saying they are forced or tricked into serving
DOM male. But if that is here pleasure...
I know many sub women who serve male DOM's and believe me ...they would
be all over you like flies on poop if you dared to say they were stupid
enough to be tricked...

Heh. I know a number of those women also, and they certainly would.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:28:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: More than play (Was Re Trying to Understand)
Message-Id: <199606281428.HAA28344@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings:
I must confess to a real sense of alienation -not so much here as
elsewhere- when I hear people refer to Rough Sex and Heavy Manners as
'play' and 'scenes.' This is not for me any kind of a game at all- it's
about who I am, and it's about real life. Joyful? Yes, but only when I
meet a woman who really understands -as do almost all in present company
and several off camera- that this is more than a game for bored yuppie
tourists.

I don't feel alienation per se, but I do know and understand what you mean.
Sometimes I do 'play' or scene, as a matter of mutual pleasure and interest.
Even then, the pain lets me go somewhere that I otherwise can't, at least
not without danger, violence, or other truly self-destructive stimuli. It's
a form of catharsis, something I value, even if I don't necessarily care for
or enjoy the extremes of pain I have to go through in getting there.

Submission's a different matter, providing a kind of meaningfulness that's
otherwise missing. Through service, as a vassal to a liegelady, offering
devotion and loyalty as well as affection and obedience, an emptiness inside
me is filled. One which hasn't been, which can't be, filled through things
like public service or charity.

And yes, people insisting that it's a game, that it's just 'play', or that
it's simply a sexual matter, cheapens and demeans it. But only for those
who don't believe that it is, that it can be, more.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- There are many forms of worship, even for those who know no gods.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:04:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Slowly Understanding
Message-Id: <199606281504.IAA01596@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

racey writes:
I am not in a sub-domm relationship. The only domm relationships I
have had, have been forced. .... my experiences weren't wonderful,
they were downright horrid.

When it's forced, it's abuse, and completely understandable why the
experience was horrid. Consent is a critical to D/s being a good
thing, as is communication, negotiation, and sometimes compromise.

So, if a woman was a sub to a domm male, does she like being beaten,
enjoys being humiliated, and receiving punishment? Belitttling may have
been the wrong choice of word in my last post, but how else would you term
having someone sit on the ground, next to a cafe table, feeding him scraps
if he is lucky?

Not all submissives, male or female, enjoy pain, humiliation, and/or
punishment. If they have a sufficient distaste for them, their consent
and submission may have conditions. "No beating me", or "I will not
sexually service anyone but you", stated as absolutes. They can choose
not to accept those things - as the dominant can have conditions, saying
that the Domme isn't willing to humiliate, or to draw blood. Sometimes
the people find, after negotiating, that they're not really compatible.


Or it can be done differently, where, through communication, the dominant
knows that certain situations or actions are going to cause distress -
possibly enough distress that the submissive might "vote with their feet"
and end the relationship. There, the sub -has- chosen to give the dom
the right to do such things - but trusts that it won't be done lightly.

So far as the last goes.... "If he is lucky" I'd personally have problems
with. But under certain circumstances I've considered myself blessed to
be sitting at someone's feet (on a pillow), occasionally being given
morsels of food, and grinning in amusement at the bewildered looks on some
of the passersby. It wasn't demeaning or belittling - I was in my place,
a wolf curled up beside my lady, and I was proud and content to be there.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:09:07 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: I'm BACK
Message-ID: <31D41FC3.3700@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

well I made a mistake...or it appears I made a mistake and I am Back.
Of course, you all know by now, that my making a mistake proofs that I
am never wrong. How does it do that you might ask. Well if I make a
mistake it is the exception that proves the rule...that I am never
wrong. Isn't the female mind a truly wonderful, logical thing.

I just got a great feeling of uncomfortableness and I always act on
that. I hope I did not bring discomfort to anyone else and I apologize
to Tracey for leaping before looking.
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:15:02 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: More than play
Message-Id: <199606281515.IAA12377@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

Coyote Sings:
I must confess to a real sense of alienation -not so much here as
elsewhere- when I hear people refer to Rough Sex and Heavy Manners
as 'play' and 'scenes.' This is not for me any kind of a game at all-
it's about who I am, and it's about real life.

Lawless:
And yes, people insisting that it's a game, that it's just 'play', or
that it's simply a sexual matter, cheapens and demeans it. But only
for those who don't believe that it is, that it can be, more.

I agree with both of you gentlemen, but I'm especially pleased to hear
this from Lawless, who has never in my memory been so candid about his
personal take on all of this.

--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Consent
Message-Id: <199606281532.IAA04137@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just to (hopefully) illustrate a point, both about how critical the issue
of consent is in issues of Dominance&submission or other forms of BDSM,
and to perhaps show why people can be rather sensitive about questions
involving D/s or BDSM :

----------

With consent, sex can be a wonderful thing for all those involved.
Without - it's rape.

With consent, BDSM can be an intense and satisfying, for all involved.
Without - it's torture or assault.

With consent, D/s can be an incredibly intimate and emotional side of a
relationship, desired by both people.
Without - slavery or abuse.

----------

Sadly, a huge segment of society doesn't see the difference, and is hostile
to those who find pleasure in alternative forms of intimacy, to the point
of prosecuting them, jailing them, or taking their children away.

This tends to make BDSM'ers somewhat defensive, and understandably so. When
questions are asked that have a negative slant, it's easy to get upset.

After all - who enjoys being compared, even indirectly or unintentially,
to a rapist?

BTW, Patricia - glad to see you haven't left us. :)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:38:00 +0100
From: newworld@dircon.co.uk (a new world)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The 'SMC' Chant
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Women lead; the men may follow.
Women rule; the men may hunt.
Women own; the men may build.
Women know; the men may wonder.
Women sing; the men may listen.
Women dance, the men may watch.
Women celebrate; the men may pray.

Home at last, one hopes,
hoping to see some light, shed some light,
hew some wood, draw some water,
laugh with You,
and hold up my end of Your sky.

Grateful for the Wise Women who Name
and the Master Women who show the way.


Just when I was thinking "I can't cope with all this traffic (100
messages!!!) what's the point when I am trashing it all".... ..along comes
a gem like this reminding me this group is something very out of the
ordinary and unsubscribing would be a big sacrifice.

Thanks for the traffic it's ALL marvelous!!


Deep Respect

ian
newworld@dircon.co.uk
London


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 11:48:05 EDT
From: peter
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Slowly Understanding
Message-Id: <199606281631.JAA19639@davinci.renaissoft.com

Since the questions raised on Tracy's original posting have been/are being
answered quite thoroughly by Coyote, Patricia, Laura, Lawless, and the
many other eloquent members participating on this thread, I really don't
think my $.02 would contribute; I would like to add a little about
"netiquette" to what peter (no relation) wrote.

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996 05:01:14 -0700 peter said:
I'm a relative newcomer to newsgroups but have read a bit about protocol in
these things. From my understanding, flaming is a common problem.
This is really, too bad. I made two responses that prompted what I
considered to be flames from other people. And I have flamed other people.
In fact, one of those people was Tracey. However, in both cases, we patched
things up and we're on good terms.

It's really too bad that we all couldn't be together physically to carry on
discussions. That way we could hear the person, hear the inflection in
their voice, etc. and quickly clarify anything that was misunderstood by
somebody else.

There are _many_ FAQs on the Internet about email etiquette; one of the
general consenses of these docs it that verbal cues such as timing and
inflection can't be put into a text document, so people may accidentally
infer sarcasm or hostility where none was intended 9or vice versa).

But, obviously that can't happen.

In the meantime, I hope everyone realizes that all others here are
basically decent people with common interests. If someone does have a
problem, with what someone else says, asking gently for a clarification
will do.

It's takes just as much time and trouble to be a nice person, as it does an
asshole.

It takes _more_ time to be an asshole; about 30% of the mail involved in
the "trying to understand" thread was devoted either to anger and
hostility or to apologizing for said anger or hostility.

And Patricia, please, I am not directing this at you. I am just as guilty
as anyone else of sending heated responses.

That goes double for me, Mts. Patricia (et. al.). I have one of the most
incendiary tempers in the world; I fight a constant battle to keep it
under control. The best advice I can give to people with similar tempers
is the same that you've probably heard from everyone else: take some time
out before replying; reread the message after you've cooled off, and do not
respond until you feel cool and level-headed enough to respond _without_
flaming. To paraphrase (and perhaps clarify) what I said earlier, it just
makes things go much more smoothly when we don't blow our stacks.

Just MNSHO, based on years of getting into trouble because of my temper!

Peter V. Sage |"Everything in excess! To enjoy the
ugsage@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu | full flavor of life, take big bites.
East Carolina University | Moderation is for monks."--Ambrose Bierce

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 96 18:16:23 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: I'm BACK
Message-ID: <960628221622_100410.1764_BHG37-2@CompuServe.COM

It's wonderful to know you're still here Patricia.
This forum wouldn't be half as valuable without you.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:00:04 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: I'm BACK
Message-ID: <31D4AA44.2E53@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

thanks...that means alot
Patricia

Jon Woolven wrote:

It's wonderful to know you're still here Patricia.
This forum wouldn't be half as valuable without you.

Jon

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #125
************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 126

Today's Topics:
Re: Slowly Understanding
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Trying to Understand
They are out to get me.
Re: Trying to Understand
Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Fumbling Towards the Nurturing Goddess
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Intelligence
Re: Intelligence
Re: Intelligence
Intelligence
Re: Intelligence
unsubscribe
We Care

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 96 18:45:05 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Slowly Understanding
Message-ID: <960628224505_100410.1764_BHG86-1@CompuServe.COM

As I said, my experiences weren't wonderful, they were downright horrid.

Don't let it happen again Tracey. There are some decent men out there so
tread carefully. If you ever have problems again with an abusive partner get
out of
the relationship immediately. Don't accept any excuses.

Belitttling may have been the wrong choice of word in my last post, but how
else would you
term having someone sit on the ground, next to a cafe table, feeding him
scraps if he is lucky?

If you introduce yourself to FemDom literature, you had better do it gradually.
This image
shocked you but it gets much wilder than that. Those of us who are turned on by
submission forever search for its ultimate expression.

Of course, there can be a big gap between fantasy and reality. In my case, my
fantasies are
extreme and yet I've found an intimate, sharing relationship in which I help a
woman to
become stronger to be more fulfilling than BDSM.

Tracey Striving for Knowledge

I'm sure we have plenty to learn from you too. Hope you stay with us.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:40:09 -0500
From: steve unroe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-ID: <31D49789.5F6D@orion.branch-co.lib.mi.us
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all,
Just wondered, do the Dominants and the submissives have widly varying=20
degrees of theur respective traits, eg; a submissive not really wanting=20
to dominate but not really feeling very submissive at that particular=20
time and do the Dominates sometimes have the same thing? I have read=20
some of the FAQ's that mention 'switches' but in my understanding this=20
term applies to people who are Dominate part of the time & submissive=20
the rest, not to people who dont have any real desire to do the other.
Been lurking here for a while and have been finding a lot of interesting=20
topics lately. I will second the motion that the list just wouldnt be=20
the same without Patricia, Laura, Tracey, Lady Jet, Lady Phoenix, or any=20
of the other regular contributers. IMHO, if you were to ask 100 Ladies=20
what they think the perfect sub, husband or anything else is you would=20
get 100 slightly to very different answers, all of which would be=20
correct. :)

back to lurking,
steve
--=20
MZ=90

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:14:35 -0700
From: Brett Wakefield
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-ID: <31D4837B.FA2@slip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

steve unroe wrote:

IMHO, if you were to ask 100 Ladies
what they think the perfect sub, husband or anything else is you would
get 100 slightly to very different answers, all of which would be
correct. :)

I venture to suggest the figure would probably be [significantly] higher
than "100 slightly to very different answers".

Of course I'm extrapolating based upon my monogamous experiences with my
my beloved polyandrous spouse.

Just a suggestions, thos...

Brett

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 03:07:28 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: They are out to get me.
Message-Id: <199606290306.DAA05650@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Welcome back Patricia.

I'll own up to having had a similar paranoid reaction the first time
I saw Tracey's header.

But, then I realised I'm not paranoiac, it's just that they are out to get me.

Seriously though, this letter is to offer reassurance to those who
might still be worried about Tracey being in the US Government.

I guess if real spooks were at work, they wouldn't send letters with
message headers that said govt.

In many mail programs you can look at the header of the message that
comes to you. Eudora lets you click a button in Options which says
"show all headers even the ugly ones". In Pegasus you just press
backspace and the header for the message you are reading comes on the
screen.

I'm no expert at this but I'd hazard a guess that the
one below from Tracey can be explained like this.......

(my comments in brackets/parentheses)

Return-Path: femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com
Received: from aphex.direct.ca (root@aphex.direct.ca [199.60.229.6])
by mail.telepac.pt (8.7.5/0.0) with ESMTP id AAA01688 for

from davinci.renaissoft.com ([199.60.103.1]) by aphex.direct.ca with
ESMTP id <268749-266; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:40:36 -0700 Received: (from
list@localhost) by davinci.renaissoft.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA29333
for cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:45:44 -0700
Relayed; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:43:26 +1200
Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:44:05 +1200
Relayed; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:40:43 +1200
Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:45:44 -0700

(the route above is how the message got to me via
davinci@renaissoft.com and out through Aphex in Canada)

X400-Received: by mta state-opera.comp.vuw.ac.nz in
/PRMD=NewZnet/ADMD=Synet/C=NZ/;
Relayed; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:43:26 +1200
X400-Received: by mta synet.nz in /PRMD=NewZnet/ADMD=Synet/C=NZ/;
Relayed;
Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:44:05 +1200
X400-Received: by /ADMD=Synet/C=NZ/; Relayed; Fri, 28 Jun 1996
11:44:05 +1200 X400-Received: by /PRMD=NZLGOVTSY/ADMD=SYNET/C=NZ/;
converted (ia5-text);
Relayed; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:40:43 +1200
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:40:43 +1200

(from here up it suggests to me that Tracey sent it at 11.40am and
that she is 12 hours ahead of Greenwich mean time. It seems to pass
through the state opera company in New Zealand and then out through
an organisation in New Zealand called Synet.)

X400-Originator: TRACEY.J.NICHOLLS@tsy.treasury.govt.nz

(This says she is at New Zealand Treasury)

X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:;

(I don't fully understand this bit. But given it is personal stuff
emanating from a place of employment it seems reasonable)

X400-MTS-Identifier:
[/PRMD=NZLGOVTSY/ADMD=SYNET/C=NZ/;6328401128061996/A01881/DALEK]
X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 11A6E2E81B00

(more stuff identifying NZ government and synet.nz)

Alternate-Recipient: Allowed From: Tracey

(This bit just says she can put Tracey in front of her address I
think. Certainly that is the way her messages arrive anyway)


<6328401128061996/A01881/DALEK/11A6E2E81B00*@MHS
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification
Requested)

(again quite reasonable, I guess it says don't send a receipt. Or
maybe this tells femsupremacy not to send her copies of her own mail.
That would be sensible).

Subject: Trying to Understand Sensitivity:
Company-Confidential Resent-Message-ID: <"mxl8WC.A.5IH.f0x0x"@davinci
Resent-From: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com Reply-To:
femsupremacy@renaissoft.com X-Mailing-List:

femsupremacy@renaissoft.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender:
femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com Content-Type: text Content-Length:
2362 Status: X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0

Anyway, you can see why mail programs don't put all this on the
screen unless you ask for it. By the time you read this lot you are
ready for sleep and in no mood for reading femsupremacy.

Regards,
David Stevenson.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:13:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606290213.WAA27326@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:54 AM 6/28/96 -0700, Chase wrote:
As far as there being a difference - I do see one, between women Dommes and
male Doms, and its this. (Those easily avoiding by blanket statements, pls
skip to end of paragraph
simply as a way to further the typical man-centric one-sided relationship.
As a Dom, they can order the woman around, tell her when and how to sexually
satisfy him without worrying about -her- satisfactions, instruct her to do
all the household chores - and be lionized for it. "He really knows how to
keep his slave in her place. What a dom!"

As a blanket statement, I have found this to be true also. From time to time
on undernet IRC I will venture into the maledom channels to see what's
happening. I'm always amazed at the sharp contrast between these channels
and the femdom channel. I usually receive three or four private messages within
the first minute of entering a maledom channel saying, "will you serve me?"
Very aggressive and selfish attitudes.

On the other hand, things on the femdom channel are quite different. There
the Dommes sit back more, observing and discussing emotions and interests.
A more cerebral and deeper interaction takes place. I took about a month
until a Domme messaged me there;) An interesting juxtaposition between the
two sexes to be sure.

I also can't comprehend how a man would want to be treated this way.

I'm not much of one for humiliation or belittlement myself, but there's a
number of reasons why some people are. Probably the biggest is that it
makes some people hot, excites them sexually. Many submissives, male or
female, find -some- kinds of humiliation to be good, and react very badly
to others. For instance, I know of few who enjoy being called stupid or
ugly, but being naked, having their sexuality discussed, these kinds are
often a totally different matter.

(Side note: Humiliations a very tricky, sensitive matter which many into
D/s won't allow themselves to be involved with, or only with great care.
It's all too easy for the submissive's self esteem to be lowered, or for
them to begin wondering if the dominant really does think of them as
lower life forms.)

Yes. To give Tracey one sub's view, I would be out the door in a flash
if someone called me a "worthless worm". That would be a violation of
my personhood. But on the other had, if I was teased in a playful spirit
I would enjoy it very much.

It can be a fine line sometimes and it's something that needs to be
discussed and agreed upon by both parties involved.

As far as being treated like a pet goes, most pets are cherished. A pet
dynamic provides a framework for affection, for praise/reward, for compan-
ionship; it doesn't have to be humiliating at all. (Oh - it also provides
for training and punishment, which are very good things for a number of
people on both ends of the leash
fed morsels from hir plate - yes, it's symbolic of status, but it's also a
very intimate act, or can be.

You are very insightful as usual. When I am referred to as a "pet", I feel
very much appreciated and loved, and kneeling at My Lady's feet is an honor.
But first of course the foundation of mutual respect must be established.

Warm Regards, Paul/maidpaula

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:24:59 -0400
From: Mitch847@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Message-ID: <960628222458_424022741@emout08.mail.aol.com

Hello everyone,

I've been trying to find back issues of two fine Femdom magazines over the
internet. If anyone has any of these that they would be willing to part with
for a price, could you please e-mail me with your asking price?

The items I'm looking for are:

Governess #s 1 through 7 (to stimulate my genteel, romantic side) and
WhAP! #s 1 through 4 (to stimulate my funny bone)

I hope this request isn't out of line. I did check the FAQ and it didn't (so
far as I can tell) seem to prohibit this kind of post. Because I'm dealing
with the internet, and there are so many scam artists lurking about, I'd feel
much more comfortable sending a check to a participant of this list (because
you're all honest, decent, and warm-and-fuzzy folk).

Mitch G.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:56:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fumbling Towards the Nurturing Goddess
Message-Id: <199606290256.WAA28937@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I was listening to Sarah McLachlan's CD "Fumbling Towards Ectasy" and these
lyrics of hers really caught my ear and heart tonight. They seem to
describe very aptly the emotions and changes I have been going through this
year.

As a few on this mailing list are aware, I have struggled a bit with myself
at times as I explore this wonderful world of female supremacy and
domination, searching for the Goddess. Thank you for your patience and
caring, I have
found Her.

Submitted sincerely and lovingly, Paul/maidpaula


Note: The chorus (indented) is the Nurturing Goddess, the other blocks
represent my thoughts, the searcher of the Goddess. A few lyrical changes
were made to reflect this.


===========================================================================

Listen as the wind blows from across the great divide
Voices trapped in yearning memories trapped in time
The night is my companion and solitude my guide
Would I spend forever here and not be satisfied

I would be the one to hold you down
Kiss you so hard
I'll take your breath away
And after I'd wipe away the tears
Just close your eyes dear

Through this world I've stumbled so many times betrayed
Trying to find an honest word to find the truth enslaved
You speak to me in riddles and you speak to me in ryhme
My body aches to breathe your breath your words keep me alive

I would be the one to hold you down
Kiss you so hard
I'll take your breath away
And after I'd wipe away the tears
Just close your eyes dear

Into this night I wander it's morning that I dread
Another day of knowing of the path I fear to tread
Into the sea of waking dreams I follow with pride
Nothing stands between us here and You won't be denied

I would be the one to hold you down
Kiss you so hard
I'll take your breath away
And after I'd wipe away the tears
Just close your eyes dear



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:08:56 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31D4BA68.5636@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dee-Ann wrote--

Yes, but there's one major concern I've heard a number of 24/7 couples
with kids mention. They don't want their children growing up confused
over when it's ok to hit someone/be hit by someone. And you
especially don't want your kid saying at school, "Mommy hits daddy but
it's ok because he likes it!" That could lose you your children in
the US and probably Canada, at least.

I do agree that if they're old enough to ask, one should give an
answer. Just be careful when answering and take the time to not leave
things confusing or open to interpretation. Not that I'm saying to
give them way more info than they asked for, but just remember not to
skim over it too much out of nervousness.

This is exactly my worry... I don't want to lose my daughter. Because
I'm bi, I look at men and women... She asked me once when I had
mentioned that a particular woman was nice looking, "Are you a lesbian?"
I told her I wa bisexual...so she asked why I meant. I explained it
to her in such a way that she knew it was okay to be bisexual, but that
society did not like it much and that it wasn'T something that people
talked about openly, kind of like when someone masturbates... People
do it, but people don't talk about it much in public. I'm hard put
as to what to do about this particular situation and appreciate all the
feedback I've been getting from all of you. When and if I find a person
to have a live-in bdsm relationship, then I hope to have more answers
and ideas to stem any of the questions I know she will ask.

Thanks!

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 23:04:40 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199606290604.XAA28483@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

And now for something completely different...

Just an interesting bit of info I heard on the news last night: researchers
have located a gene they believe determines intelligence. It's on the X
chromosome and therefore people inherit their intelligence ONLY from their
mothers.

Yet another reason to value intelligent women!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 07:52:41 +0200
From: jcalvo
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199606290705.IAA23257@jet.es
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 23:04 28/06/96 -0700, you wrote:
And now for something completely different...

Just an interesting bit of info I heard on the news last night: researchers
have located a gene they believe determines intelligence. It's on the X
chromosome and therefore people inherit their intelligence ONLY from their
mothers.

Yet another reason to value intelligent women!

The researcher was a Woman.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 02:21:41 -0400
From: OhYeahSure@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID: <960629022141_227515058@emout18.mail.aol.com

researchers have located a gene they believe determines intelligence. It's
on the X chromosome and therefore people inherit their intelligence ONLY
from their mothers.

One place this piece appeared, interestingly enough, was page one of the
Marketplace section of Thursday's or Friday's Wall Street Journal. I believe
it made specific reference to a son's liklihood of inheriting his mother's
intelligence whereas a daughter, according to the study, is as likely to
inherit her mother's intelligence as she is her father's. It closed with the
advice that males might do better than to follow their more predictable
mating habits, or something close to it...

ken

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 96 05:43:55 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Intelligence
Message-ID: <960629094355_101342.2030_GHW98-1@CompuServe.COM

Just an interesting bit of info I heard on the news last night: researchers
have located a gene they believe determines intelligence. It's on the X
chromosome and therefore people inherit their intelligence ONLY from their
mothers.

What happens is - the male child receives one X chromosome exclusively from
his mother. A daughter receives an X chromosome from both her mother and her
father. Therefore, if the daughter had a thick father and a brilliant mother,
she would not be as bright as her brother, who would have only acquired his
mothers intelligence. Now - if the daughter married a genius husband, her sons
would still be only as intelligent as the mother, but the daughter would be
more intelligent because she inherited an X chromosome from her father.
OK class - I hope you all paid attention to that - questions will be asked later !

Now, if they had asked our group the question to start with, we could told them
about Female Supremacy anyway, and the money they would have saved could have
bought Patricia her private jet, Jet her private basement, Paul his hostess
uniform and donated the rest to Breast Cancer Research !

As they say - its a funny old world !

Dennis (t.o.m)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:18:27 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199606291818.LAA26336@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just an interesting bit of info I heard on the news last night: researchers
have located a gene they believe determines intelligence. It's on the X
chromosome and therefore people inherit their intelligence ONLY from their
mothers.

What happens is - the male child receives one X chromosome exclusively from
his mother. A daughter receives an X chromosome from both her mother and her
father. Therefore, if the daughter had a thick father and a brilliant mother,
she would not be as bright as her brother, who would have only acquired his
mothers intelligence. Now - if the daughter married a genius husband, her sons
would still be only as intelligent as the mother, but the daughter would be
more intelligent because she inherited an X chromosome from her father.
OK class - I hope you all paid attention to that - questions will be asked
later !

Now, if they had asked our group the question to start with, we could told them
about Female Supremacy anyway, and the money they would have saved could have
bought Patricia her private jet, Jet her private basement, Paul his hostess
uniform and donated the rest to Breast Cancer Research !

As they say - its a funny old world !

Dennis (t.o.m)


It's interesting that the news I listened to didn't get into the female
inheritance side at all (typical, typical). They only said that intelligence
came from a single parent, the mother. If I hadn't been falling asleep I
might have thought about the fact that women get an X from dad too. I would
love to see the specifics of the study. (My subscription to Science News has
lapsed, alas!)

Just wondering... Did the study actually determine that women's intelligence
is an average of the two parents? It was my understanding that the second X
chromosome in women often acts as a safety backup. Through a process science
has no explanation for, women with a problem on one X usually use the
information from the other. (This is fortunate for me, since I inherited a
serious X-linked disease from my father. My mother's X was fine, so I'm
okay.) This makes me think that it's possible that women only use data from
one X for other things as well.

--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:35:32 -0400
From: tiresius@magnet.ca (Tiresius)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id: <9606291835.AA17162@python.magnet.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tiresius@Magnet.ca

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:58:37 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: "femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com"
Subject: We Care
Message-ID: <31D560BD.6F67@thughes.pop.crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

We are passionate people who love to engage in olypic intellectual
gymnastics. We care about these issues, and as long as we are courteous,
we can express strong opinions and everyone should remember that we are
among friends, even if we disagree. Go ahead and get excited! I love it!
please post smc adress again. Thanks.
Always listening,

Spirit Wind
femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 127

Today's Topics:
Re: Intelligence
Re: Intelligence
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Intelligence
Re: traceys last post
Re: More than play (Was Re Trying to Understand)
Re: Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Re: traceys last post
Re: traceys last post

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 07:24:47 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199606300620.IAA07920@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote Phoenix:

Just wondering... Did the study actually determine that women's intelligence
is an average of the two parents? It was my understanding that the second X
chromosome in women often acts as a safety backup. Through a process science
has no explanation for, women with a problem on one X usually use the
information from the other. (This is fortunate for me, since I inherited a
serious X-linked disease from my father. My mother's X was fine, so I'm
okay.) This makes me think that it's possible that women only use data from
one X for other things as well.

This is a strange thread. The concept of intelligence here seems to be the same
as that in _The Bell Curve_: Intelligence is one single kind of stuff, which you
have more or less off (like money); you can measure it in a consistent way and
quantify it by one single number; and some people are born with more of it
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like niggers and women).
Admit it---these are the standard categories. You will not change a thing by
just standing the thing on its head saying it is just the other way around,
women
are born with more of it ... it is the same kind of rot. Racism, and sexism, and
false science.

First, it is genetic nonsense. When will people get into their thick heads that
one-gene, one-character inheritance is utterly rare? When those who profit
by ignorance and misinformation cease to misinform us, I guess. Apart from the
fact that "characters" are usually arbitrary and subjective categories,
nearly all
of them are determined by the interplay of several genes in very different loci.
On different chromosomes, even. Very nearly the only characters inherited
through one single gene are simple genetic disorders. Simple things, simple
effects. And simple effects are usually bad effects. Three embryos of four are
spontaneously aborted because of these simple errors (go tell that to the Pope).

Second, intelligence---whatever it is (see below) is determined as much, or
more,
by cultural, i.e. learned factors as by genetic inheritance. There is no
"IQ test"
that is independent of culture. An intellectually stimulating environment in
childhood, good education in youth, intellectually challenging tasks in
adult life
---these are clearly more important to intellectual performance than biological
inheritance is. Do you know that the average "IQ test" result in the U.S.
has risen
by ten points since the 1940's? If intelligence was really detemined
biologically,
the ONLY way of achieving this would be by means of a massive eugenics
programme of the most brutal kind. But the cause is clearly environmental.
Young people get more occasion to exercise their brains than formerly.

Third, "intelligence" is not one single stuff. It is multifactorial. There
is mechanical
intelligence, mathematical intelligence, artistic intelligence, social and moral
intelligence---to name but a few. People who are devoid of the last kinds
are not
intelligent. They are just clever, and they are dangerous. I know not one test
which measures all of them (if they can be quantified); and how are they to be
weighted relative to each other (again, if they can be quantified)? Because of
this, the idea of one single "general intelligence"---the 'g' of the IQ
charlatans---
is just pseudoscientific voodoo.

I reiterate my firm belief that truth, and only truth, can liberate. Myths and
lies can never set people free. The reason is that the myths and the lies are
usually the same, regardless who are using them. They are the same malignant
rot, only the supposed beneficiaries are different. For instance, racism is
racism
and sexism is sexism, no matter the color or sex of those on top.

How come that all these lying oversimplifications are so popular? Why do we
persist in repeating them whenever they are fed to us, and whatever their
burden? Reality is complicated. Understanding it, and describing it, takes work,
hard and honest intellectual work. There seems to be nothing that man fears
more. It also takes courage, and that too is a scarce commodity. How much
simpler just to bounce back the silly slogans that our masters and manipulators
are throwing at us!

BTW, for those who are interested in the reality behind the IQ humbug, I can
recommend S.J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1981 and many later editions).
I do not agree with all of Steve Gould's ideas about evolution (about which he
has written copiously and entertainingly in several other books) but this
exposure
of the IQ scam is superb. However, it is a scientifically reasoned book;
you will have to exercise your own intelligence when reading it. Still,
this seems to be rewarding work.

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:57:48 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID: <31D6418C.7D5A@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

timberwolf...i don't care what your trying to explain..there is no
excuse for using the "n" word ever...it is derogatory and demeaning, not
funny and entirely inappropriate and out of place here. and I
personally will not allow racism in my space..and since this popped up
in my space...please never use it again.
Patricia

timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:

Wrote Phoenix:

Just wondering... Did the study actually determine that women's intelligence
is an average of the two parents? It was my understanding that the second X
chromosome in women often acts as a safety backup. Through a process science
has no explanation for, women with a problem on one X usually use the
information from the other. (This is fortunate for me, since I inherited a
serious X-linked disease from my father. My mother's X was fine, so I'm
okay.) This makes me think that it's possible that women only use data from
one X for other things as well.

This is a strange thread. The concept of intelligence here seems to be the same
as that in _The Bell Curve_: Intelligence is one single kind of stuff, which you
have more or less off (like money); you can measure it in a consistent way and
quantify it by one single number; and some people are born with more of it
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like niggers and women).
Admit it---these are the standard categories. You will not change a thing by
just standing the thing on its head saying it is just the other way around,
women
are born with more of it ... it is the same kind of rot. Racism, and sexism, and
false science.

First, it is genetic nonsense. When will people get into their thick heads that
one-gene, one-character inheritance is utterly rare? When those who profit
by ignorance and misinformation cease to misinform us, I guess. Apart from the
fact that "characters" are usually arbitrary and subjective categories,
nearly all
of them are determined by the interplay of several genes in very different loci.
On different chromosomes, even. Very nearly the only characters inherited
through one single gene are simple genetic disorders. Simple things, simple
effects. And simple effects are usually bad effects. Three embryos of four are
spontaneously aborted because of these simple errors (go tell that to the Pope).

Second, intelligence---whatever it is (see below) is determined as much, or
more,
by cultural, i.e. learned factors as by genetic inheritance. There is no
"IQ test"
that is independent of culture. An intellectually stimulating environment in
childhood, good education in youth, intellectually challenging tasks in
adult life
---these are clearly more important to intellectual performance than biological
inheritance is. Do you know that the average "IQ test" result in the U.S.
has risen
by ten points since the 1940's? If intelligence was really detemined
biologically,
the ONLY way of achieving this would be by means of a massive eugenics
programme of the most brutal kind. But the cause is clearly environmental.
Young people get more occasion to exercise their brains than formerly.

Third, "intelligence" is not one single stuff. It is multifactorial. There
is mechanical
intelligence, mathematical intelligence, artistic intelligence, social and moral
intelligence---to name but a few. People who are devoid of the last kinds
are not
intelligent. They are just clever, and they are dangerous. I know not one test
which measures all of them (if they can be quantified); and how are they to be
weighted relative to each other (again, if they can be quantified)? Because of
this, the idea of one single "general intelligence"---the 'g' of the IQ
charlatans---
is just pseudoscientific voodoo.

I reiterate my firm belief that truth, and only truth, can liberate. Myths and
lies can never set people free. The reason is that the myths and the lies are
usually the same, regardless who are using them. They are the same malignant
rot, only the supposed beneficiaries are different. For instance, racism is
racism
and sexism is sexism, no matter the color or sex of those on top.

How come that all these lying oversimplifications are so popular? Why do we
persist in repeating them whenever they are fed to us, and whatever their
burden? Reality is complicated. Understanding it, and describing it, takes work,
hard and honest intellectual work. There seems to be nothing that man fears
more. It also takes courage, and that too is a scarce commodity. How much
simpler just to bounce back the silly slogans that our masters and manipulators
are throwing at us!

BTW, for those who are interested in the reality behind the IQ humbug, I can
recommend S.J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1981 and many later editions).
I do not agree with all of Steve Gould's ideas about evolution (about which he
has written copiously and entertainingly in several other books) but this
exposure
of the IQ scam is superb. However, it is a scientifically reasoned book;
you will have to exercise your own intelligence when reading it. Still,
this seems to be rewarding work.

TWolf

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:08:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <199606300708.DAA11176@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

By the way, sub is not spelled with a capital 's'!

Mistress Watch


David Stevenson in reply to Dennis and Dee-Ann,

I apologise for a somewhat *strident* posting, but as a father of 3
children,I feel strongly about exposing children to adult scenarios
(alcohol, drugs,bdsm etc.), instead, protect them and teach them to be
intelligent enough to make their own way (and make up their own minds)
in this world with safety.

Dennis (t.o.m)

I can see this kind of solution being a bad idea in some cases. It
could easily undermine whatever respect a child has for that person,
making them ineffectual as a "babysitter". Also, if I was the
kid/teen in question, I tell you I'd be _looking_ for that punishment
book to see what was in it.

These are just my personal feelings, but IMO I wouldn't do a lot of
D/s in front of my kids (if I had any :). I would require my mate to
obey me, yes, but there's really a difference between, "Go get me a
towel, would ya?" "Sure, one sec!" and "Get me a towel or I'm going
to drag you in the back room and do you-know-what".

Dee-Ann

I'm not sure it is fair to lump bdsm in with alcohol and drugs.

If my daughter asked me, "Why was Mummy crying last night." When in
fact Mummy was having an orgasm, I think it would be necessary to
give some kind of explanation. The amount of detail would depend to
some extent on the age of the child, and on how interested she/he was
in listening once reassured that everything was OK.

Equally with my comment with regard to handcuffs left under the bed.
We can all do these things accidentally, and children are going to
ask. At this stage re-assurance is what I was advocating, not
thrusting bdsm into their faces.

Bdsm is a valid form of sexual expression, which just like vanilla
sex we do not do in front of the children. But just as it is OK for
vanilla Mum & Dad to kiss and cuddle. So some expression of a bdsm
lifestyle is acceptable. My example of a telling off when 'he' was
rude, was meant as an example of how such things can be included
without going over the top into dragging him off to beat him. In fact
I was advocating that while both Dom & Sub might know what the book
meant, the telling off gave the impression that the book was the
beginning and end. I'm sorry if that was not clear in my phraseology.

If one has prying children that will go and search for 'the book',
then the book could be kept locked away. But I do not advocate this
kind of reaction. I do not believe it is healthy for parents to
behave as though there is something guilty or dirty about their sex
lives. Nor require their children watch.

Although there comes a stage when children will want to learn more
about sex, and if you are hiding your form of sexual expression from
them, they may feel obliged to sneak around in order to try and
understand.

Hence I favour always answering their questions honestly, but only
giving simple explanations. There may come a point when the questions
become so direct that you have no choice but to sit down and have a
heart to heart.

I know one Lady who didn't have to do this until her daughter was
grown up and married. When she was informed, she disowned her Mother
and has since had nothing to do with her. The Mother in question is one of
the warmest and kind hearted of scene folk I have ever had the honour to
meet.

My daughter is now 21 and living in the USA. I have a strong feeling
she knows, but she has never asked. I'm pretty sure she will find me
out on the internet one day, but then she will have been looking in
the right places so will presumably be open minded enough to handle
it better than the example above. She certainly drops hints from time
to time, but even now I'm reluctant to open up without a direct
question.

Vanilla:-
In my opinion. A child could go to school and say in the earshot of a
teacher, 'I saw/heard my Mum & Dad f***ing last night. I walked into
their bedroom and they were going at it like a couple of steam hammers.'
Would this involve the children being taken from their parents? I
hope not, surely a more appropriate response is to suggest to the child
that it might be better to knock on doors before entering.

Bdsm:-
The fact that the authorities regard our sex play as justification
for such acts must be changed. Which is why I feel we must support
all open minded attempts by authority to move in that direction.
Hence my support of the study that I mentioned in an earlier
posting. If we can change the minds of the medical profession, it
will have an impact in the courts of this land when it comes to these
child care cases.

If we hide away as though we have guilty secrets, that is the way
society and our children will treat us.

Anyone wanting a repeat of the email address is welcome to write. I
have had much correspondence with Patricia Cross on the matter. I am
informed they have a couple of 'resident experts' on the team.

Warm regards,
David.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Noble wrote:

timberwolf...i don't care what your trying to explain..there is no
excuse for using the "n" word ever...it is derogatory and demeaning, not
funny and entirely inappropriate and out of place here. and I
personally will not allow racism in my space..and since this popped up
in my space...please never use it again.
Patricia

Patricia,

Like you, I do not care for the "n" word, finding it racist and
insulting. As one who spent time in Mississippi during the early 1960s I
realize how hateful that word can be.
However, I would like to make two points: first, the word is used
by African-Americans and their friends as humor and even a badge of
honor, much as gay and gay-friendly people use "queer" and we refer to
ourselves as "perverts". One of my cultural heroes, Lenny Bruce, would
repeat the "n" word tirelessly in his stage act on the grounds that it
would become so commonplace that it would lose its hurtfulness.
Secondly, and with all respect, this is not only "your" space, it is
all of *ours*. If you have a disagreement with any of our language,
ideas or formulations, please explain your feelings instead of giving
orders. We are a good group here, and respond better to suggestions than
flames.
BTW, I am very glad that you decided to stay with us.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:41:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: traceys last post
Message-Id: <199606300741.DAA12071@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi there!

With all due respect Patricia, Tracey's mail is coming from the New Zealand
Treasury Dept. I believe you are being just a little bit paranoid. IMO, I
couldn't give a good goddammed what the government knows about me. I just
took a buyout from the Canadian government because I needed to get out of
that oppressive environment. The irony is that they actually paid me a lot
of $$$ to leave. Let them know all about my personal life. They might just
learn how to live!! I have never been happier and NOBODY is going to take
that away from me. Not even our feds!!

Proudly,

Mistress Lorraine Jobin




I cannot reply to traceys posts by returning what she wrote back in
return mail...I am feeling very uncomfortable about this. whoever you
are Tracey, your email is coming from the Treasury Department of the
U.S. government.
I am most uneasy about all the places that it bounces too and the
security that is wrapped around each of the addresses. For that reason
I am unsubscribing from this list. I would be careful all of you...I
will miss you...but I am not taking any chances.....take care
I have this sense that we are being pumped for information..that can be
used..for what reason I do not know...but I do not trust the U.S.
Government or people who cannot be identified....The treasury dept is
one of the worst....
Patricia

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 04:10:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: More than play (Was Re Trying to Understand)
Message-Id: <199606300810.EAA12799@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Chase, you bring a happy tear to my eye! I have never been happier in a
relationship than I am now. My submissive has brought me more joy than I
ever thought possible. It is definitely not only 'sexual'. It is
fulfilling, uplifting and makes life worth living for BOTH of us. I am
finally happy...


Mistress Lorraine



Coyote Sings:
I must confess to a real sense of alienation -not so much here as
elsewhere- when I hear people refer to Rough Sex and Heavy Manners as
'play' and 'scenes.' This is not for me any kind of a game at all- it's
about who I am, and it's about real life. Joyful? Yes, but only when I
meet a woman who really understands -as do almost all in present company
and several off camera- that this is more than a game for bored yuppie
tourists.

I don't feel alienation per se, but I do know and understand what you mean.
Sometimes I do 'play' or scene, as a matter of mutual pleasure and interest.
Even then, the pain lets me go somewhere that I otherwise can't, at least
not without danger, violence, or other truly self-destructive stimuli. It's
a form of catharsis, something I value, even if I don't necessarily care for
or enjoy the extremes of pain I have to go through in getting there.

Submission's a different matter, providing a kind of meaningfulness that's
otherwise missing. Through service, as a vassal to a liegelady, offering
devotion and loyalty as well as affection and obedience, an emptiness inside
me is filled. One which hasn't been, which can't be, filled through things
like public service or charity.

And yes, people insisting that it's a game, that it's just 'play', or that
it's simply a sexual matter, cheapens and demeans it. But only for those
who don't believe that it is, that it can be, more.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- There are many forms of worship, even for those who know no gods.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 04:30:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Message-Id: <199606300830.EAA13245@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Where can I get copies??


Hello everyone,

I've been trying to find back issues of two fine Femdom magazines over the
internet. If anyone has any of these that they would be willing to part with
for a price, could you please e-mail me with your asking price?

The items I'm looking for are:

Governess #s 1 through 7 (to stimulate my genteel, romantic side) and
WhAP! #s 1 through 4 (to stimulate my funny bone)

I hope this request isn't out of line. I did check the FAQ and it didn't (so
far as I can tell) seem to prohibit this kind of post. Because I'm dealing
with the internet, and there are so many scam artists lurking about, I'd feel
much more comfortable sending a check to a participant of this list (because
you're all honest, decent, and warm-and-fuzzy folk).

Mitch G.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 02:13:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: traceys last post
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Lorraine Jobin wrote:

Hi there! I couldn't give a good goddammed what the government knows
about me. Let them know all about my personal life. They might just
learn how to live!! I have never been happier and NOBODY is going to take
that away from me. Not even our feds!!

Proudly,

Mistress Lorraine Jobin

Mistress Lorraine,

Thank you very much for being an example for our Community. If
we do not stand up for ourselves the sniveling little bigots will take us
down one by one. I wish to express my deep respect for your courage and
want you to know that every post by people such as yourself strengthens
my resolve to fight for all of us.
My belief in Female Supremacy stems primarily from the hope that
we can fashion a society where conflict is no longer necessary.
Perhaps I will not see this ideal in my lifetime, but until then I will
dream even as I struggle.

Peace,

Barry


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:26:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: traceys last post
Message-Id: <199606301226.IAA17366@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thank you, Barry. Just as an amusing footnote, my sub is a former
high-ranking government official!! He brought out the Domina in me!! Let
the feds sink their teeth into that one!! And even more amusing, he loves
the fact that I'm outspoken about the government and encourages it... I
feel like the luckiest person on earth. I have finally met the sub of my
dreams!!


On Sun, 30 Jun 1996, Lorraine Jobin wrote:

Hi there! I couldn't give a good goddammed what the government knows
about me. Let them know all about my personal life. They might just
learn how to live!! I have never been happier and NOBODY is going to take
that away from me. Not even our feds!!

Proudly,

Mistress Lorraine Jobin

Mistress Lorraine,

Thank you very much for being an example for our Community. If
we do not stand up for ourselves the sniveling little bigots will take us
down one by one. I wish to express my deep respect for your courage and
want you to know that every post by people such as yourself strengthens
my resolve to fight for all of us.
My belief in Female Supremacy stems primarily from the hope that
we can fashion a society where conflict is no longer necessary.
Perhaps I will not see this ideal in my lifetime, but until then I will
dream even as I struggle.

Peace,

Barry


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 128

Today's Topics:
Re: Intelligence
Patricia
On the topic of Government interference...
Re: Patricia
Re: Intelligence
The 'n' word
Re: We Care
Re: Intelligence
intelligence
Re: Intelligence
Re: Trying to Understand
Mistress Lorraine's postings

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 17:02:11 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199606301557.RAA07554@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

timberwolf...i don't care what your trying to explain..there is no
excuse for using the "n" word ever...it is derogatory and demeaning, not
funny and entirely inappropriate and out of place here. and I
personally will not allow racism in my space..and since this popped up
in my space...please never use it again.
Patricia


Please, Patricia ...
I used the "n word" very deliberately and ironically, EXACTLY in order
to point out what kind of thinking that lies behind the arguments I have
seen used here. I used it EXACTLY because I have been fighting
racism actively during my entire life and because I hate it. People who
exhibit this kind of reaction, in my experience, do it because they do not like
to be reminded of the contents of their own subconscious. Their reaction
is not different from that of the Victorians in regard to sex---clothing piano
legs in trousers and all that.

The cant and the hypocrisy of politically correct Americans makes me want
to puke.

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:32:33 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Patricia
Message-ID: <31D63BA1.42E0@thughes.pop.crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just a note to say if you left there would be a hole in our newsletter
large enough to drive a tracter trailer through! In two words I think
your THE BEST! Hope you always feel free to be you, we like you just the
way you redheaded are! Men are growing and changing and not in small
measure because of women like you. Traceys relationship was abusive and
rectal orafices abound in both sexes. We are trying to build a better
world where racism, and abuse are discouraged not condoned. We all have
to submit to each other some time or we would have anarchy. Some of us
men just realize that women do a better job at many things, and they
don't have testocerone to contend with! My life has improved greatly
since I learned to be submissinve to my wife and not do my own thing all
the time. It's a side of my nature I never explored and I'm growing as a
person. It's been years since I've had this much intellectual
stimulation. It makes me glad I bought a computer in february!

Always Listening!
Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:13:10 -0400
From: Mitch847@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: On the topic of Government interference...
Message-ID: <960630141308_567202081@emout15.mail.aol.com

Hey everyone,

I agree with the notion that we should all just live our lives and not
spend our time worrying that the government should know or care what we do.
Ideally, that's the way to live, and my respect for officials both elected
and appointed is lower than most people's. That's because I figure anyone
who seeks such a position is either a saintly person who wants to do the
world some good (extremely rare) or someone who is morally bankrupt to start
with and sees politics as an opportunity to wallow in pork (the much more
common explanation, I strongly suspect).

But I also understand the misgivings of some of us who can't completely
stop worrying about government interference in their lives. I don't have any
kids, which makes my situation easier than that of some folks, since I don't
have anything to worry about except my own exposure, and that doesn't
frighten me a great deal. If I did have kids, though, I'd might have to
think about having a son or daughter taken away from me because some idiot
bureaucrat thought that I lived a lifestyle which was detrimental to my
child's development. This may not happen often, but it has happened, and
once the politicos (who always know what's best for us) set a precedent, they
can sometimes get carried away.

I've thought for sometime that the U.S. Government's power of seizure of
property in alleged drug cases was somewhat scary to contemplate, and yet
this power is exercised regularly, even in very weak cases that don't even
get a conviction. The victim (possibly a law-abiding citizen) has to do
without a home or vehicle until the authorities are satisfied that he or she
has been proven innocent.
I'm sure that this law was enacted to punish the opulent lifestyles of
big-time drug dealers, and that its original intent wasn't to punish the
parents whose teenager threw a party at the house where drugs were brought
in. Its unfortunate that some of the people who enforce these laws do so
punitively, in order to make cases, and are more concerned with their
conviction rates (and moving up the political ladder) than they are in
justice.