men just realize that women do a better job at many things, and they
don't have testocerone to contend with! My life has improved greatly
since I learned to be submissinve to my wife and not do my own thing all
the time. It's a side of my nature I never explored and I'm growing as a
person. It's been years since I've had this much intellectual
stimulation. It makes me glad I bought a computer in february!

Always Listening!
Spirit Wind




I used the "n word" very deliberately and ironically, EXACTLY in order
to point out what kind of thinking that lies behind the arguments I have
seen used here. I used it EXACTLY because I have been fighting
racism actively during my entire life and because I hate it.

That's what I sensed when I read your post. The word seemed
inserted for its shock value- its utility in raising consciousness
as much as anything else, and you knew your audience. It was used
in just the same way that many gay activists now refer themselves
as 'queer' or that I might refer to myself as a 'boy,' a 'redneck,'
a 'pervert,' a 'pinko,' etc. I take the energy of the word and throw
it back at those who would wield it to harm me. The mythic magick
of Naming has all sorts of street uses. :)

The cant and the hypocrisy of politically correct Americans makes me want
to puke.

Uhm, TW, Patricia is the =last= person I would call PC ;9

That said, I second the notion. It usually betrays a deep
ignorance of history and of one's own origins- a real identity
problem not uncommon is these times. PC-speak, like its
mirror-twin alienation, is one of the devices of my class enemy,
the Victim.

And =that= said, I must assert that PC usage and related moral
posturing is not confined to Americans. We make an easy target
because of our sheer size, visibilty and diversity, and because
of the sins of the fathers.

That my murderous, cattle-thieving Scots ancestors burned witches,
enslaved Africans and slaughtered Indians and their Rebel neighbors
on their way to this Sunbelt paradise is not my lookout. Repairing
the damage is. I have made so many un-PC choices for myself and have
assumed so many uncool, unhip social roles that I just don't have
time for either guilt or blaming. If I waste time on those, I will
forget my myth, and my garden will die.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 96 16:22:50 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: The 'n' word
Message-ID: <960630202249_101342.2030_GHW109-1@CompuServe.COM

I wish that people would read the postings and evaluate them in the light they
have been written. TimberWolf used the word 'nigger' purely to highlight the
sort of word usage that can stem from bigoted beliefs. Maybe us Europeans are
more open to the nuances of the English language, and are not afraid to make use
of them without fearing unrelated and misrepresentative rebukes. My race has
been maligned for years in Britain, *Irish jokes* have flourished for countless
years until the politically correct storm troopers marched in and their public
use was banned. What happened - an Irish comedian sat down and wrote a whole
book full of new jokes. The Micks and Paddies can look after and, thank heavens,
LAUGH at themselves.
I understood the use of the *n* word and I am sure that any black member of
this group also understood the context in which it was used.

Dennis (t.o.m)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:40:02 +0300 (IDT)
From: sparta@netvision.net.il
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: We Care
Message-Id: <199606302040.XAA25064@mail.netvision.net.il
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thank you for your reply. I would like to be included on your mailing list and
receive pertinent internet lists etc. As per your instructions, I am again
including my e-mail address: sparta@netvision.net.il
Sincerely,
mark s. goldstein
pob 762
Hod HaSharon
Israel 45016

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:39:29 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID: <31D71031.32D1@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:
and some people are born with more of it
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like niggers and women).

Now excuse me..I was not going to reply to this but I must. In the
above TW says he was not using it as a derogatory term but to illustrate
his point....so in this example then he is using the word women to mean
a derogatory term..they are both enclosed in the same paranthesis. why
didn't he use "n" and "b"s if his point was hyperbole? I find it
derogatory...this has nothing to do with political correctness.

Someone said that African Americans call themselves this when they hang
out together...that is there privilege and among themselves the
distribution of power is somewhat more equal. When the term comes out
of a white man's mouth..the oppressor, where there is an unequal
distribution of power...whitey has it all...then I find it offensive.
If he had said "n"'s and "b"'s i would have gotten the point.

I did read this post and the follow ups..every word. I am not a stupid
(woman). I thought we were about making a kinder gentler place for one
another here. If the word makes me uneasy..and I am not alone ..must we
continue to say it over and over again to prove how "liberal" we are.
I am Native American..and if anyone uses the word injun to describe me,
or squaw, they will seriously make me very angry and hurt.

the word is a derogatory term and there is no reason to use it. If you
must, you must...but be clear, for me, at least, it brings tears to my
eyes...as much as if you called a jewish person a kyke .. I remember the
holocaust...and the way we kidnapped and killed the African American
here in my country..is a matter of shame I will not compound by using
degrading and insulting language....it has nothing to do with "political
correctness...it has to do with grace..and treating all people with
dignity....
Patricia...


just standing the thing on its head saying it is just the other way around,
women
are born with more of it ... it is the same kind of rot. Racism, and sexism, and
false science.

First, it is genetic nonsense. When will people get into their thick heads that
one-gene, one-character inheritance is utterly rare? When those who profit
by ignorance and misinformation cease to misinform us, I guess. Apart from the
fact that "characters" are usually arbitrary and subjective categories,
nearly all
of them are determined by the interplay of several genes in very different loci.
On different chromosomes, even. Very nearly the only characters inherited
through one single gene are simple genetic disorders. Simple things, simple
effects. And simple effects are usually bad effects. Three embryos of four are
spontaneously aborted because of these simple errors (go tell that to the Pope).

Second, intelligence---whatever it is (see below) is determined as much, or
more,
by cultural, i.e. learned factors as by genetic inheritance. There is no
"IQ test"
that is independent of culture. An intellectually stimulating environment in
childhood, good education in youth, intellectually challenging tasks in
adult life
---these are clearly more important to intellectual performance than biological
inheritance is. Do you know that the average "IQ test" result in the U.S.
has risen
by ten points since the 1940's? If intelligence was really detemined
biologically,
the ONLY way of achieving this would be by means of a massive eugenics
programme of the most brutal kind. But the cause is clearly environmental.
Young people get more occasion to exercise their brains than formerly.

Third, "intelligence" is not one single stuff. It is multifactorial. There
is mechanical
intelligence, mathematical intelligence, artistic intelligence, social and moral
intelligence---to name but a few. People who are devoid of the last kinds
are not
intelligent. They are just clever, and they are dangerous. I know not one test
which measures all of them (if they can be quantified); and how are they to be
weighted relative to each other (again, if they can be quantified)? Because of
this, the idea of one single "general intelligence"---the 'g' of the IQ
charlatans---
is just pseudoscientific voodoo.

I reiterate my firm belief that truth, and only truth, can liberate. Myths and
lies can never set people free. The reason is that the myths and the lies are
usually the same, regardless who are using them. They are the same malignant
rot, only the supposed beneficiaries are different. For instance, racism is
racism
and sexism is sexism, no matter the color or sex of those on top.

How come that all these lying oversimplifications are so popular? Why do we
persist in repeating them whenever they are fed to us, and whatever their
burden? Reality is complicated. Understanding it, and describing it, takes work,
hard and honest intellectual work. There seems to be nothing that man fears
more. It also takes courage, and that too is a scarce commodity. How much
simpler just to bounce back the silly slogans that our masters and manipulators
are throwing at us!

BTW, for those who are interested in the reality behind the IQ humbug, I can
recommend S.J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1981 and many later editions).
I do not agree with all of Steve Gould's ideas about evolution (about which he
has written copiously and entertainingly in several other books) but this
exposure
of the IQ scam is superb. However, it is a scientifically reasoned book;
you will have to exercise your own intelligence when reading it.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:41:35 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: intelligence
Message-ID: <31D710AF.5616@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and to the intelligence debate. It does not matter what your born with
it matters what you do with it.

but if you are born with more..that is not cause to flaunt your
superiority...it is cause to act even more responsibly

that's what i do with mine anyway...
patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jun 96 17:44:40 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID: <960630214439_100410.1764_BHG97-1@CompuServe.COM

Please, Patricia ... I used the "n word" very deliberately and ironically,
EXACTLY in order to point out what kind of thinking that lies behind the
arguments I have seen used here. I used it EXACTLY because I have been fighting
racism actively during my entire life and because I hate it. People who exhibit
this kind of reaction, in my experience, do it because they do not like to be
reminded of the contents of their own subconscious. Their reaction is not
different from that of the Victorians in regard to sex---clothing piano legs in
trousers and all that.
The cant and the hypocrisy of politically correct Americans makes me want to
puke.

I think it was obvious to everyone why you used the term but that
doesn't prevent it being offensive to some people. Sorry, but that
bit about anyone objecting to the ironic use of racist language is
probably racist underneath is not worthy of your usual high
standards of debate.

I felt uncomfortable at the time, even though given its context, I never
considered it racist for a moment. Free speech is vitally important and
I would usually just shirk it off, but I am disturbed by your response here.

I think you should appreciate that people who dislike racially abusive
terms, even when they are used in an ironic sense, are not necessarilly
'politically correct'. There's so much hurt contains within such terms
that we should use them only when absolutely necessary, even when
we're sure we are on the side of the righteous.

I think it's better to be safe than sorry in a community in which
you don't know the members personally and where it's easy to
cause offence.

I'd also much rather share a drinking session with someone who's
'politically correct' than a right wing, reactionary bigot. Please don't
think I'm accusing you of that for a second Twolf, I've read your post
and don't doubt your sincerity and decency for a second.

Be careful about how easy it is for the right wing to label anyone
half liberal with this casual put-down though.

Jon



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:21:19 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606302317.XAA19523@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:40:09 -0500
From: steve unroe

Hello all,
Just wondered, do the Dominants and the submissives have widly varying
degrees of theur respective traits, eg; a submissive not really wanting

snip. snip.

I have read
some of the FAQ's that mention 'switches' but in my understanding this
term applies to people who are Dominate part of the time & submissive
the rest, not to people who dont have any real desire to do the other.

We have read many hundreds of letters from men who find that they
only have the desire to play a sexually submissive role on occasions.
Some of the reasons given are as follows......

1. Inhibitions. Perhaps seeing it as a perversion which they feel
guilty about enjoying and therefore not allowing themselves to let
go unless it 'builds up'.

2. Not a high sex drive and only feeling submissive when aroused.

3. Seeing it as an enjoyable variation from their usual sexual
preferences. (This latter we are skeptical about).

We have taken the liberty of sending you something privately which we
cannot send to the list as it's copyright is not held by us.

sincerely,
Christine.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:49:53 -0400
From: gab@imi.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Mistress Lorraine's postings
Message-Id: <9606302249.AA11752@RezoNet.NET
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think it's unfortunate Mistress
Lorraine left the government. We need MORE like her in the Halls of Power.
Since her sub is a former high ranking official, there are no doubt more who
remain. These need to be harnessed and focused on giving us good government,
rather than what we're getting. Perhaps the Department Of Manpower and
Training should take on a whole new meaning under the likes of M. Lorraine.

Mistress Lorraine - GO BACK, GO BACK!! :-))

Affectionally and with deep respect for your message,

Tony


Hi there!

With all due respect Patricia, Tracey's mail is coming from the New Zealand
Treasury Dept. I believe you are being just a little bit paranoid. IMO, I
couldn't give a good goddammed what the government knows about me. I just
took a buyout from the Canadian government because I needed to get out of
that oppressive environment. The irony is that they actually paid me a lot
of $$$ to leave. Let them know all about my personal life. They might just
learn how to live!! I have never been happier and NOBODY is going to take
that away from me. Not even our feds!!

Proudly,

Mistress Lorraine Jobin



the subject "help".


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 129

Today's Topics:
Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Permission (Re: Intelligence )
Re: Intelligence
Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Re: Trying to Understand
Fantasy and Reality reference Male Doms.
femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Slowly Understanding
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Light at the end of the tunnel...
Re: intelligence
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: femdom/femsupremacy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Message-Id: <199606302347.QAA17648@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia pointed out:
timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like niggers and women).

he is using the word women to mean
a derogatory term..they are both enclosed in the same paranthesis. why
didn't he use "n" and "b"s if his point was hyperbole? I find it
derogatory...this has nothing to do with political correctness.

I think T-wolf used the two words, together and in the same parenthis, for
a reason. When I first saw it, it made me sit up and take notice, the fur
on the back of my neck standing up and bristling. It seems it had the
same result with a number of people here - as timberwolf hoped for it to
have.

"niggers and women" - he picked the words quite deliberately, both for
shock value, -and- because, on this list, in this environment, the inc-
lusion of 'women' alongside 'nigger' made it clear, or at least had the
intent of making it clear, that he wasn't denigrating blacks/colored
people/Afro-Americans.

With his respect for womankind, evidenced here on this list time and again,
I expect he thought it impossible for people -not- to realize the irony he
meant to express, the hypocrasy he meant to expose. Sadly, with his having
been on vacation and silent a lot recently, people could see his words w/o
knowing his values. Flame, even I had to reread his post two times, 'fore
I quite grasped what he was trying to say, an' I'm neither the most unsubtle
of wolves nor the least familiar with his postings. (Modest wolf that I
am

"Woman" too often is meant and used to describe a second class citizen. As
is "nigger", "jew", "submissive" or any of countless other derogatory
labels. Timberwolf pointed this out -- perhaps it would've been better
with a post script reiterating that he didn't mean to demean anyone, but
then again, under limitted circumstances, such as this list, people should
not necessarily have to - the comunity is presumed to have a background
which facilitates understanding.

(So far as my personal slant goes - I grew up in both New York City and
-very- backwoods Maine, and went into the Marines for 8 years. There,
there was no whites or blacks - just different shades of green. And yet,
there was no particular word which was outlawed - if only because words
can be used as weapons. To this day, despite all I believe in, I'd use
the word 'nigger' under some circumstances, if I thought it would incense
someone to the point of stupidity, where I'd have a chance of distracting
them from their original victim.

The crime isn't in a particular word, whether racist, bully, or nigger.
The sin's in those who live in a manner to describe those terms - and
yes, there's niggers out there. It's not a matter of being dark skinned,
nor a matter of being prone to violence (as, for instance, I am). It's
a matter of attitude, of personality, of what a person's actions are going
to be when they know or think they'll get away with it.

'course, there'll always be those too stupid to shut their mouths regardless
of the circumstances or consequences. People like me. But, if you outlaw
the words, it's just going to drive the attitudes deeper, as a matter of
darwinism and survival. Darwinism is good, when not articificially in-
fluenced. An' yes, btw -- I figured I'm too vicious an' screwed up for
the good of the species, to where I tell Ladies that no, I ain't a can-
didate for the father of their children. Defender perhaps though, mebbe
..... ;)

Oh!
----------

Laura:

Wouldst mind if I forwarded your wonderful post, 'bout used for certain


Au'voir for now,

Chase (who didn't discuss his personal tendancies towards BDSM here
because he believes in separation of church and state, which this
being one of his state outlets.)

--
-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:17:26 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Message-Id: <9607010817.S870697142@houston.email.net

Concerning the request made by Mitch G. on where he could find
WhAP! #s 1 through 4 (to stimulate my funny bone)
In NYCity, KINEMATICS on W.37th and Sixth have those issues (or they did two
weeks ago.) You might also try COME AGAIN on E. 53rd ST and 1st ave. They
have back issues sometimes.
bodie167@houston.email.net

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 06:37:15 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Permission (Re: Intelligence )
Message-Id: <199607011337.GAA05727@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com

Lawless wrote:

Laura:

Wouldst mind if I forwarded your wonderful post, 'bout used for
certain

Sure thing, go for it. :) Thanks for asking.


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:57:36 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199607011753.TAA21829@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

And =that= said, I must assert that PC usage and related moral
posturing is not confined to Americans. We make an easy target
because of our sheer size, visibilty and diversity, and because
of the sins of the fathers.

Certainly not, Coyote. Certainly not! We have our share of it here too.
But somehow---that may of course be due to an inability too see the
dirt under one's own carpet---the American variety seems more
visible and more offensive (in both senses of the word!). Also, our
cant is seldom about race; wich of course does not mean that we are
not racists. We are all racists, and sexists. It is just that some of us
are willing to recognize it and to do something about it.

Again, I retell the story told by a Swedish journalist. He was on an
airplane on his way home from the U.S. In the seat next to him sat
an extraordinarily beautiful black woman. But during the flight,
a strange change occurred, and when they landed in Europe, she
had changed into an extraordinarily beautiful American woman!
It is just that amongst us, race is not necessarily THE supreme
category to class people by. In Britain, it is class. In the rest of
Europe (possibly with the exception of Ex-Yugoslavia) it is sex!

My sincere regards,

Timberwolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:57:32 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Message-Id: <199607011753.TAA21825@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

"niggers and women" - he picked the words quite deliberately, both for
shock value, -and- because, on this list, in this environment, the inc-
lusion of 'women' alongside 'nigger' made it clear, or at least had the
intent of making it clear, that he wasn't denigrating blacks/colored
people/Afro-Americans.

With his respect for womankind, evidenced here on this list time and again,
I expect he thought it impossible for people -not- to realize the irony he
meant to express, the hypocrasy he meant to expose.
(snip)
The crime isn't in a particular word, whether racist, bully, or nigger.
The sin's in those who live in a manner to describe those terms -

Thanks, dear Canine (Steve). On the nail as you so often are.

Regards,
TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 13:01:50 -0600
From: IlUildi
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <31D8209E.15AA9B6F@ares.csd.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greetings

Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:40:09 -0500
From: steve unroe


[snip snip snip]

I have read
some of the FAQ's that mention 'switches' but in my understanding this
term applies to people who are Dominate part of the time & submissive
the rest, not to people who dont have any real desire to do the other.

We have read many hundreds of letters from men who find that they
only have the desire to play a sexually submissive role on occasions.

How about the other way around? I'm a switch who started out Dom as a
teenager and have grown more sub as I get older and wiser. ;^) My basic
play rule is that she gets to tie me up if she wants (I know, ladies
first is a chauvinistic attitude), but if I can get loose, I'm going to
tie her up (and she won't get loose).

Some of the reasons given are as follows......

1. Inhibitions. Perhaps seeing it as a perversion which they feel
guilty about enjoying and therefore not allowing themselves to let
go unless it 'builds up'.

I think of it as equal rights. Maybe it's that I used to feel guilty
about my Dom desires, and subbing seemed appropriate. Or maybe it's
simple application of the golden rule. Whichever, I do like it both
ways.

2. Not a high sex drive and only feeling submissive when aroused.

Half right?


3. Seeing it as an enjoyable variation from their usual sexual
preferences. (This latter we are skeptical about).

Yin and yang are contained in each other. I also think it makes for a
balanced karmic diet.

Bill

--
The future is bright, fruitful and positive.
-Bob Marley

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:26:48 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fantasy and Reality reference Male Doms.
Message-Id: <199607012245.WAA24977@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

There is an Irish comedian who uses the line.....

"It is only a sin if you enjoy it."

constantly throughout his act.

There is for many people with Sub Dom fantasies a quite
natural concern when we compare them with acceptable
behaviour in Real Life.

It is certainly true for me, that some of the most exciting
fantasies are those that would be the most unacceptable.

While I am primarily a sub male, I do have an erotic response to
fantasies and stories where the girl protests her unwillingness. It is
more enjoyable to imagine her tears and begging and pleading if one
imagines they are Real.

But I am comfortable in the certain knowledge that I would never do it
for real. I haven't always been this comfortable. For many years I was
concerned that I might be a bad person for thinking this way.

One theory is that these fantasies may serve a purpose, rather than
just simply be an additional turn on. If they first occur, as they
usually do, before we are full grown adults, then they are probably
there to help us deal with fear and anger.

Many of us take a frightening or traumatic situation in childhood and
with sexual fantasy turn it something pleasurable. Equally we can do
this in adulthood, we take an unacceptable part of our nature and make
it pleasurable as a fantasy. It doesn't mean we will do it. In fact I
believe it does the opposite, it helps us to see it as unacceptable
while at the same time allows us to enjoy it.

Bdsm role play (and fantasy) takes phenomena like rejection,
humiliation and aggression and creates a situation where these
phenomena exist, but combines them with a partner who loves us
despite them. The despite them is the unacceptable fantasy.
The acceptable reality is that in consensual bdsm the truth is
that we are loved because of them.

We may well be frightened that if we exhibit certain types of
behaviour we will be rejected. The submissive male might be afraid of
being rejected for being weak-willed and not the macho image that
society has him half convinced he should be.

These dominant fantasies equally reflect a knowledge that any
sensible person would tell us where to go, if we tried to impose it
upon them. We may well be dealing with similar fear here. Fear that we
will be rejected for thinking this way.

So these fantasies are just ways to protect us from certain realities
and fears, by making them acceptable fun.

Many psychologists now accept Robert Stoller's defininition.
Fantasy:- "a scenario which the author has been working on since
childhood . . . containing elements of risk and security
derived from childhood . . . into an acceptable form
celebrated by orgasm".

This is as opposed to the Freudian model of a one incident Trauma
which we could find to explain the way we are. We are in fact writing
and re-writing in our heads both the experiences we had, and the ones
we might like to have. We interweave them and play with them so that
we can come to terms with the isssues while still enjoying the
thrills.

It is good therapy while at the same time allowing us sexual
pleasure.

'It is only a sin if you enjoy it.'

David Stevenson.

Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607012226.PAA04250@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 529

There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just like to take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that extra step
to Femsupremacy.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 18:32:22 PDT
From: Jack Clotworthy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii

Marvelous!!! 'Just proves that diversity of the human species is a real JOY!
Wouldn't it be awful if we were all cut from the same mold? The genetic
crap-shoot makes the difference. Viva la difference!
jack
-------------------------------------

E-mail: jclotwor@access.digex.net



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Slowly Understanding
Message-Id: <199607012306.QAA04314@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1083

Tel 4715 914 wrote:

I didn't expect such a heated response from you Patricia, I didn't mean to
offend you. I simply chose your response because I was using it as a
comparative to other posts, like Laura's, which is another perspective.

I am not in a sub-domm relationship. The only domm relationships I have had,
have been forced. Perhaps this is the reason why I am having trouble
understanding that people have this sort of lifestyle and actually pursue and
enjoy being in one.

You may find it helpful to read the newsgroups alt.sex.femdom and
alt.sex.bondage. Also, the FAQ's to these newsgroups (which are
posted once or twice a month, I forget). There's a lot of ads and
junk in them, but if you sift through you can find discussions on why
folks are into BDSM, etc.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:13:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just like to take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that extra step
to Femsupremacy.

Big affirmative on that one, Dee-Ann! I've made that mistake as often as
anyone else, simply because this world is so new to me that I sometimes
have difficulty separating the degrees of the entire spectrum.

From now on I'll endeavor to post my FemDom oriented thoughts to a more
appropriate group. Sure wish the others had more intellectual quality
and less garbage, though :-(

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:29:01 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Light at the end of the tunnel...
Message-ID: <8448321002071996/A00973/DALEK/11A712A03000*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A712A03000

Gosh, my eyes are wide and open. Thank you for all your responses to my
questions.

Yes, I work for the Treasury Dept of the NZ Government, not the US. I've yet
to travel overseas. No, I'm not big brother/sister watching and waiting to
turn you all in if I see and read anything that's pornographic or if I see the
word "abortion" 8^). I'm all for free speech!

All I want is to understand different lifestyles. Gosh I supported the gay
bill here in NZ (which was passed - wahoo!). I had many heated debates with
blinkered idiots who thought gay people just have unprotected, spreading AIDs
sex. I'm not a lesbian, I just didn't think it was fair to have a law in place
to stop people loving each other, regardless of sexual preference.

I also correspond with a woman who I met through a mailing list like this. She
is bisexual and I ask her all sorts of personal questions about her sexuality.
I just want knowledge and she doesn't mind my asking.

I think I finally understand what this list is all about. To have a good domm
relationship, is to have a consenual domm relationship. I now know that the
sub wants to be treated like this and why it is so important when a sub writes
the way he does (eg, capitalisation). If I read any bad publicity about BDSM
stuff - and you have to agree, these types of relationships don't get great
reviews, I feel I could argue the point to defend the relationship because I
think I have enough information and knowledge to do so. Same as being a
defender of gay rights when I'm not gay.

Oh by the way, if you were trying to personally email me, we are in the process
of updating our system which could the reason why it bounces.

On the "N" word - I don't really care what context this word is used, I hate
it. I don't like racial slurs regardless of who says them. Just like I hate
the word "C" (female anatomy).

Tracey

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:37:44 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: intelligence
Message-ID: <31D8A798.606@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noble wrote:

and to the intelligence debate. It does not matter what your born
with it matters what you do with it.

but if you are born with more..that is not cause to flaunt your
superiority...it is cause to act even more responsibly

that's what i do with mine anyway...
patricia

YOUR intellect has been welcome & valued here for some time.
TWolf's point is well taken, never assume a race, sex, or group can be
defined by a single measure. The "TONE" of his post might offend, but
the message was correct.
As far as levels of Female/male smarts are concerened, guys
tend to forage for the nest, Gals tend to build it. A symbionic real-
ationship for sure. If we can all try to be more tolerant of the other
sex, life might be more mellow. Females are the base, males are an
offshoot. Simply put, men are acessories, Women are the core.
Roy

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 03:41:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607020741.DAA12700@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Could someone tell me how to subscribe to that 'other' newsgroup? I sure
like this one, though. Thanks for taking me aboard!

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just like to take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that extra step
to Femsupremacy.

Big affirmative on that one, Dee-Ann! I've made that mistake as often as
anyone else, simply because this world is so new to me that I sometimes
have difficulty separating the degrees of the entire spectrum.

From now on I'll endeavor to post my FemDom oriented thoughts to a more
appropriate group. Sure wish the others had more intellectual quality
and less garbage, though :-(

Peace,

Barry

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 04:12:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607021112.EAA05350@netcom14.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1974

Lorraine Jobin wrote:

Could someone tell me how to subscribe to that 'other' newsgroup? I sure
like this one, though. Thanks for taking me aboard!

alt.sex.femdom is the Usenet newsgroup that "was formed in
February, 1994 for the purpose of discussing relationships
in which a woman is dominant -- most often in a sexual sense,
but not always -- in a consensual relationship with her male
or female partner (or partners)."

This from Jay Doubleyou, the newsgroup's founder and worthy
steward, to whom this list is very much indebted. a.s.fd is this
list's 'mother group,' one could say. I've taken the
liberty of sending you his complete Welcome message separately.

Related newsgroups are alt.sex.bondage, alt.personals.bondage and
the little-used (for now) alt.women.supremacy. (a.w.s. is a bit like
'us' in content when it's active, but gets periodically littered
by rude boys and spammers.) Other newsgroups exist for those whose
interest in FS is more political or cultural in some way.

To see a Usenet newsgroup at all, your Internet provider must
give provide access not only to Usenet but to the groups that
interest you. If they don't, you may want to go shopping for a
new service ;d
Users of some services (e.g, the Matchmaker systems) can't get
Usenet at all. ;[

Barry commented:

I sometimes
have difficulty separating the degrees of the entire [FS] spectrum.

That's exactly the deal: Female Supremacy =is= a spectrum.

Enjoy, and a belated Happy Canada Day ;]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.
femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:
Following up the Stevenson's post
Dee Ann's advisory:
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Dee Ann's advisory:
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
genesis consequences
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
the significance of the Feminine (fwd)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:23:55 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

This is a first post to the group so if any faux pas are made please
correct us gently.

In message <199607012245.WAA24977@mail.telepac.pt, Christine & David
Stevenson (who we thank for mentioning this group's existence to
us)

Many of us take a frightening or traumatic situation in childhood and
with sexual fantasy turn it something pleasurable.

Bdsm role play (and fantasy) takes phenomena like rejection,
humiliation and aggression and creates a situation where these
phenomena exist, but combines them with a partner who loves us
despite them. The despite them is the unacceptable fantasy.
The acceptable reality is that in consensual bdsm the truth is
that we are loved because of them.

Robert was very interested to read this. De facto his bondage fantasies
can be precisely dated to the time when as a highly unwilling
participant in the English private school system, aged about 11, a very
nasty bully consistently prevented him going to the loo at night. The
result has been an utter detestation of bullies in real life carried to
the point of resignation in management level jobs, but as any God may
live, it was during those experiences that somehow they were turned to
pleasurable account by an inventive mind which dreampt up all sorts of
bondage ideas from which he finally emerged triumphant.

Very strange maybe but true and I am grateful to the Stevenson's own
post for giving me the stimulus to share this. This may not seem too
related to femsupremacy, that came later down the line, no woman has
ever bullied me the way men have (apart perhaps from a certain prime
minister?).

Another idea may seem like old hat to some but we are still interested
to hear comments (and it does offer an angle on the femsupremacy
debate):

Is there a possibility that the real stimulus to the creation of the
fall story in Genesis and in particular the apportionment of blame and
the origin of wrongdoing being placed at woman's feet, being followed by
that fateful curse, lies in the differing nature of the male and female
orgasms?

From my observation (limited in scope :-)), men can go through quite a
sudden post orgasmic mood change that women do not seem so prone to.

In an ancient society with men already enjoying political dominance and
seeking solutions for the world order they found themselves in, might it
have seemed quite plausible to decide to blame the object who at once
drew and emptied them sexually for the ills of the world they endured?
Unacceptable maybe but plausible and suitable to those in charge?

Of course I could not imagine such a presentation having much
credibility nowadays (certainly not with myself nor with womankind) but
could these thoughts explain the unfortunate process that was to have
such an influence in Judaeo-Christian society?

If you need to remind yourselves of the text it is Genesis 3.1-19.

Meantime and having just had the sad media diet of Russian politics with
its peculiar combination of crime, machoness and struggling democracy to
wake up with, take care, sadly not all in the Garden is yet rosy.

--
robert and fiona forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:53:30 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Dee Ann's advisory:
Message-Id: <9607020753.S877130059@houston.email.net

There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just like to
take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that extra step
to Femsupremacy.
My question is: Is there a similar Female Dominance posting to which
those with that interest could be guided? If so, posting the address
might help.
bodie

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:09:45 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607021409.HAA11190@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

I sometimes have difficulty separating the degrees of the entire [FS]
spectrum.
Barry

That's exactly the deal: Female Supremacy =is= a spectrum.
coyote sings

The personal is political. Why must a woman's power end at the kitchen
or bedroom door? In the living room she has to bring him a drink, but
in the bedroom she can throw it in his face? What?

Women: take over the whole damn house! And the senate! Why stop there?
Why stop anywhere? A woman's place is everyplace!

Say it with me, now:
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!

Say it again!
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!

Ahh! Thanks. Now *I* at least feel better... :)


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:32:27 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607021432.HAA12927@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:


In an ancient society with men already enjoying political dominance
and seeking solutions for the world order they found themselves in,
might it have seemed quite plausible to decide to blame the object who
at once drew and emptied them sexually for the ills of the world they
endured?

Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...a revolution of thought
took place, with men ultimately asserting their claim to be thought the
primary parent. For a very long time women have been lowered in status
more and more, since people believed until very recently that males
contributed the "seed" and women were the "soil" within which human
life grew. This view was exploded fairly recently when our modern
scientists showed that women contribute as much genetically as men to
the offspring. Now, women's parental primacy is again being asserted,
since not only are they equal to men at conception, but are in total
control of the whole rest of the process of gestation, birth and
nuturance. At best, it can be proven that men play a necessary role in
conception only; whether they play any other role in the offspring's
life is apparently optional, although certainly they can and should
play a major supporting role for the mothers of the race, and for the
sake of their own offspring.

The history of men's ascendance at woman's expense is a long one, and
the Bible is one document that shows the struggle in garbled form. RE:
the Adam/Eve story...apparently the half-assed explaination offered by
patriarchal conquerors for the icons of the naked goddess, tree of
life, etc. that their Goddess worshipping predecessors left littered
all over the ancient world.
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dee Ann's advisory:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 bodie167@houston.email.net wrote:

My question is: Is there a similar Female Dominance posting to which
those with that interest could be guided? If so, posting the address
might help.
bodie

bodie,

As coyote sings pointed out in an earlier posting, alt.sex.femdom
would be your best bet if your server provides it. On my Pine Server you
can access it by typing galt.sex.femdom (the g is for "get"), then
subscribe by typing s. Check your documentation to see how to do it on
your server.
This is a newsgroup instead of a newslist so you get a lot of
garbage, flames, spams, etc., but there is also much worthwhile discussion.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 10:40:52 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-ID: <31D95F24.39B8@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I second, third, fourth etc. that
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!

Patricia


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:14:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607021514.IAA28115@netcom18.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1258

Laura Goodwin woke us in the West up with this exhortation:

Women: take over the whole damn house! And the senate! Why stop there?
Why stop anywhere? A woman's place is everyplace!

Say it with me, now:
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!

Say it again!
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!

Ahh! Thanks. Now *I* at least feel better... :)

Well! And a bright good morning to you, too, Ma'am! :D

This is just my excuse to segue over to mention the
Terrible Visage of our local US Attorney, Janet Napolitano,
who has just busted the Viper Militia that you might be
seeing on the news. An exemplary woman in public life, and
one with the type of future that Laura is talking about.
Believe it. Meanwhile, watch her kick some 'patriot' ass.:)

There, now I feel better, too; :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:25:10 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: genesis consequences
Message-ID:

Thankyou Laura for replying to this post, you wrote:

Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...a revolution of thought
took place, with men ultimately asserting their claim to be thought the
primary parent.
In all sincerity I would greatly appreciate some evidence for this. In
many respects I am ignorant about recent academic work in this sphere.
All sorts of things have brought me here, not least some half references
in an Open University course I teach (but they were not backed up by
evidence).

Many moons ago I did a research degree involving Genesis but I was more
interested in the issue of God and suffering at the time and lived with
what in retrospect is monstrous (the Fall story).

Since then life's avenues have left me researching model railway history
on a hillside in Northern England supported by a very remarkable career
librarian with whom my notions of "being a man" have undergone much re-
appraisal.

I seem to have lost contact with the academia that could inform (amongst
the many other things that have to be done to earn bread), but my
interest in the challenge of Genesis is sincere (quite of my own bat I
have written another MSS about it after the MA one). Now wanting to try
to shape further my thoughts on Genesis 3 any pointers to material that
would evidence this "critical moment" of awareness of impregnation would
be carefully pondered over.

I had noticed your Song of Solomon reference here and in others from
you. It is an irony of ironies that just when that book (BIBLE) has
blown you up with annoyance along comes something setting out a very
different agenda. Thankyou for bringing that to the fore. For us one of
the things, against all the obstacles, that still keeps the two of us
struggling with some form of Christian religious belief is the idea that
perhaps at its heart is the supremacy of personhood above all the
traumas of gender (and hence the idea that the relation of persons in
the Godhead as a lifeforce (the Trinity) is potentially a liberating and
exciting one).

Many thanks for your time and although it may appear that it is the man
tittle tattling away here (and it is just now), the one who I adore sees
all I write and is very capable of making her presence felt.

robert and fiona forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:57:24 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607022153.VAA18985@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

There is some confusion about newsgroups, and mailing lists.
Fem Supremacy is a mailing list. And a thoroughly good one too!
Unfortunately I sometimes get carried away and think it is a
Fem-Dom mailing list.

For when I'm in that mood I ought to limit myself to the other
lists I'm subscribed too. (The Pearl) and (SubMiss).
Unfortunately they are not strictly Fem-Dom. AT LEAST half their
members swing the other way.

As Coyote Sings wrote we could use the newsgroup alt.sex.femdom,
but I so much prefer Email. Reading newsgroups soon runs up the
phone bill.

Considering myself slapped and reprimanded, and promising to try
harder.

David Stevenson.

On 2 Jul 96 at 3:41, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com wrote:

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 03:41:28 -0400 (EDT)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Could someone tell me how to subscribe to that 'other'
newsgroup? I sure like this one, though. Thanks for
taking me aboard!
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:57:25 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607022153.VAA19072@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Fortunately for those who have stubbornly tightassed providers
there is a way to see alt.sex.femdom by Email.

It is complicated and involves sending off messages to agora
servers. But if anyone wants instruction I have several files of
material on the subject.

Trying to behave. :(
David Stevenson.

On 2 Jul 96 at 4:12, From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)

To see a Usenet newsgroup at all, your Internet provider
must give provide access not only to Usenet but to the
groups that interest you. If they don't, you may want to
go shopping for a new service ;d Users of some services
(e.g, the Matchmaker systems) can't get Usenet at all. ;[
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:09:09 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I am certain this posting will cause a lot of controversy. And I certainly
hope no one -- especially Laura and Patricia -- take it the wrong way. And
I apologize now if I misread their postings.

But it really pains me to read responses like this, especially as someone
who has the deepest of respect for everything on earth: plants, animals,
geological features, the environment ... you name it.

But certainly men must be good for something. Or at least some men are good
for something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
reproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
that.
Do you really believe that?

I know Laura has written often about her husband and what a fine person he
is. Aren't there other men out there like him?

Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate, understanding,
don't beat their wives, don't molest their children, and try to live a
decent life as best they can?

Aren't there men who truly respect and cherish women (and I'm not talking
in a dom-sub relationship)?

Aren't men good for something else than reproduction?

I really can't believe that people would have thoughts like this about the
opposite sex.

I could go on, but I am really upset.

I'm sure (or at least I hope) that I have misread this and I'm begging for
a clarification. And I'm sure I will have to further clarify what I have
just written after I give it more thought.

And please be gentle with me, I most certainly don't mean to insult your
intelligence with this response.
Thank you
Peter

Laura Goodwin wrote:

Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...

to which Patricia responds:

Actually, while that may have been some of the psychological gobbly gook
that was going around at the time, the struggle against women by men for
dominance was a political and economic one. It was the subjugation of
tribes, clans and local power against centralized, hierarchal power
systems. When 9 million women were burned as witches in Europe, it was
as much an economic revolution as a church led one. The church just
helped and gave legitimacy to the misogyny (sound familiar).

For example: Men were writing down and learning "medicine". These male
professinal doctors were new on the scene and most people still went to
their local healer "in most cases a woman". The new male docs could get
no patients. Male doctors were invasive and painful...while local women
healers offered more holistic solutions and used herbs with ancient
known medicinal powers. Thus, the witch is over the boiling pot. They
had to get rid of these women in order to have people go to these new
male doctors. This is just one example of one great motivator for the
great burnings.

An interesting side note to this, is the use of the name faggots for
homosexual men. It comes from the witch burnings. When a woman or
women were staked to burn and all the wood was piled underneath them to
start the fire....many times male homosexuals were thrown on the pile as
it started to burn....thus the term faggots.

Laura wrote:
At best, it can be proven that men play a necessary role in
conception only;

Actually men do not any longer have to be alive to play that necessary
role in conception. Male sperm can be frozen and kept for years and
still work...this cannot be done with the female egg. When men
sometimes tell me I am not very kind, I say, you are here aren't
you..that proves the most important kindness. Many feminist separatists
have talked about the day men are no longer on the planet in any large
scale. In those days, sperm will be frozen and used to produce only
female children....since sex can be identified before birth. Some males
with superior genetic backgrounds will be allowed to be born...kept as
cattle in pens...when old enough to be milked for their sperm..they will
be and then done away with. While i do not subscribe to this dream of
the future (although when patriarchy really pisses me off...I do think
of it) as of this moment and into the ancient future...males are really
no longer needed, at least, for the physical contribution they give to
childbirth.
Patricia



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:05:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: the significance of the Feminine (fwd)
Message-Id: <199607022205.PAA04313@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2843

I also subscribe to the Pagan Home and to the Crone mailing lists, where the
text below was posted. It seems to speak to the heart of our business here
and is a definite Keeper. (Crone is a mailing list for and about Wise
Women of a certain age in life, and is especially about their spiritual
and health concerns. It is also open to interested younger women and to some
very gentle men.) The poster is a Crone.

c.s.

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:47:29 -0500
Sender: CRONE
Subject: the significance of the feminine
To: Multiple recipients of list CRONE

Dear crones and coeeys,

Last weekend I went to Omega to a workshop by Marion Woodman which was
wonderful. In her truly feminine way she spiralled around the subject in a
way which my masculine found very annoying, but my feminine appreciated.
Her technique worked because by the end of the weekend my masculine was in
abeyance and my feminine was the dominant one--not so usual for me.

She stressed that the patriarchy was not the masculine it was a power
principle. I need to hear that because I often fall into male bashing and
yet I often work from my masculine. (I am a big fan of Walt Whitman's
...do I contradict myself, well, then, I contradict myself.)

She said that when you commit to the feminine, your life is changed. You
have committed to spontaneity rather than the masculine perfection. I hope
I can do it because giving up the drive to perfection sounds good to me
right now.

Marion Woodman said that if the mother unconsciously hates being a woman
the girl child picks it up. Maybe that was my problem all along; poor
mother, poor me.

She also said, if you want to keep somthing sacred in your soul, to honor
your own treasure, keep it secret. I have never been able to do that. I
like to share my treasures.

She quoted Margaret Mead who said that the greatest force on theplanet is
the post-menopausal woman with zest.

At the end of the workshop she had us divide into threes. One was the mind
who fed images to the body. One was the heart who fed love to the body.
One was the body who closed her eyes and danced to the music. We all had a
turn at each thing. The idea was to get out of the mind and to be all
heart or all body or all mind.

[handle and some personal remaerks deleted]

...all the Goddesess are one Goddess...And to every woman her own truth,
and the Goddess within. Adapted from The Mists of Avalon

END



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 131

Today's Topics:
Re: genesis consequences
Re : Femdom
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Pat and Peter
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: genesis consequences
Message-Id: <199607022331.QAA11927@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5018

Welcome, Fiona and Robert:

You wrote

Thank you Laura for replying to this post, you wrote:

Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...a revolution of thought
took place, with men ultimately asserting their claim to be thought the
primary parent.

In all sincerity I would greatly appreciate some evidence for this. In
many respects I am ignorant about recent academic work in this sphere.

It's hard to find (though some here will disagree with me), but
what Laura says about the sudden interest in paternity is bang on.
Add in the industrialization of hunting ( pastoralism) and of
gathering ( agriculture) which created the novelties we know
today as Property and Government, and you have quite a brew.
Good-bye to the days when women ran things and the men hunted and
boasted of the hunt in their cave paintings. (Perhaps the old days
are lamented in the myth of Cain & Abel? - I dunno.)

The Hebrews (along with other frontier people coping with both
the old and the new) got very mixed messages about all this, and
were profoundly influenced by their property-owning, statist
neigbors.

Many moons ago I did a research degree involving Genesis but I was more
interested in the issue of God and suffering at the time and lived with
what in retrospect is monstrous (the Fall story).

I have made the best of its contradictions, and take it as
a giant practical joke on the part of Woman (Eve - 'Ava) and
her Serpent friend (Wisdom/Sophia, Self-Awareness, Goddess) as
they savor the Bad News to the now property-obsessed Adam:
"No more hunting trips with the boys for you, Sparky- now you
have to go out and get a =job=. Toast thou art, and to toast thou
thou shalt return." The Serpent never deserted Eve (or any of us).

I seem to have lost contact with the academia that could inform (amongst
the many other things that have to be done to earn bread), but my
interest in the challenge of Genesis is sincere (quite of my own bat I
have written another MSS about it after the MA one). Now wanting to try
to shape further my thoughts on Genesis 3 any pointers to material that
would evidence this "critical moment" of awareness of impregnation would
be carefully pondered over.

Start with the contexts provided by OT criticism: Gen. 3 is
probably, like all of Genesis, a fairly 'recent' cut & paste
of ancient oral stories from several sources, slapped together
and edited to suit the politics of the (probably post-Exilic) day.
3:1-19 is a mix of J & E material slapped into a P document. The
so-called Fall story slipped past the guys doing the editing because
they just didn't get it, even as they colored it. She Who Is
survives in that story for those who care to see Her, winking
hugely at Eve and her friends.

I had noticed your Song of Solomon reference here and in others from
you. It is an irony of ironies that just when that book (BIBLE) has
blown you up with annoyance along comes something setting out a very
different agenda. Thank you for bringing that to the fore. For us one of
the things, against all the obstacles, that still keeps the two of us
struggling with some form of Christian religious belief is the idea that
perhaps at its heart is the supremacy of personhood above all the
traumas of gender (and hence the idea that the relation of persons in
the Godhead as a lifeforce (the Trinity) is potentially a liberating and
exciting one).

Laura and some others have helped me a lot with all of that.

The Bible is in the public domain- it is not the secured
property of a few Ayatollahs, but a collection of stories that
belong to all of us and are for our own light to illuminate.

Jews and Christians are not bound by the perceived gender messages
in the Bible, any more than we are bound to herd goats in the
desert or grow olives for a living or to slaughter Canaanites.
Jews have a number of hopeful alternative messages in the Torah
and the prophets (admittedly not always happy campers) (See 'The
Book of J') and Christians have the Christ-event itself and Jesus'
earlier proclaiming an end to religion and all its patriarchal
baggage and enjoining us to lighten up. :]

I'll send you some 'She Who is' posts and cites privately if
you wish. The folks here already know I'm a Space Catholic of the
Anglican mystic stripe and deserve to be spared the details. ;P
But it seems we're here for about the same reasons.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 02 Jul 96 19:36:42 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Re : Femdom
Message-ID: <960702233641_101342.2030_GHW92-1@CompuServe.COM

I do hope that JW will not object, but I remember when Compuserve banned access
to the Femdom newsgroup I sent a mail to JW to ask how I could read the
postings. He kindly replied with instructions as to how , postings to the group
could reach my mail box.
I suggest, therefore, if your provider cannot access Femdom, you email JW at :
juu@netcom.com (if it is still the same)
asking for instructions.

Be warned - if you think FS is a busy group - be prepared - Femdom is EXTREMELY
busy !
Be warned - The level of discussion is NOT on the level of this group (apologies
JW)

JW is an extremely helpful person, running a busy group - be patient.

If remember correctly, JW has contributed to this group on occasions, so he
might post some useful information himself.

Dennis (t.o.m)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:51:32 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

FEfor something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?
Yes.

Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate, understanding,
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:14:22 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I knew someone would post a message along these lines.

I knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met nothing but abuse
from men all her life.

I guess I was very fortunate. I grew up in a family that was full of
nothing but love and understanding. It was a family straight out of Leave
It To Beaver. There was absolutely no abuse of any kind. And it was the
same way with my friends. It was that or they did a terrific job of hiding
the skeletons in their closets.

My father was a kind compassionate man who went beyond his means to provide
for me. He was my best friend. He was fully at ease with high-powered
politicians or bums on the street. And the most important thing he taught
me was to be respectful of others. To overlook their shortcomings. When you
scratch deep enough, you'll find a sensitive human.

And he wasn't the only man on earth to do this. And I'm sure that Coyote
and myself are not the only two men on earth who feel this way.

I'm awfully sorry that the men you have come across have not been ethical,
moral and decent. And I can see how you feel that way.

I can't offer you any advice, only my deepest regrets that this has
happened to you.

Peter


FEfor something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?
Yes.

Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate, understanding,
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:15:01 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31D9F3C4.2902@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

it is the rule rather than the exception...that is why we are skeptical
when we hear about all these really good men.
Patricia

peter wrote:

I knew someone would post a message along these lines.

I knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met nothing but abuse
from men all her life.

I guess I was very fortunate. I grew up in a family that was full of
nothing but love and understanding. It was a family straight out of Leave
It To Beaver. There was absolutely no abuse of any kind. And it was the
same way with my friends. It was that or they did a terrific job of hiding
the skeletons in their closets.

My father was a kind compassionate man who went beyond his means to provide
for me. He was my best friend. He was fully at ease with high-powered
politicians or bums on the street. And the most important thing he taught
me was to be respectful of others. To overlook their shortcomings. When you
scratch deep enough, you'll find a sensitive human.

And he wasn't the only man on earth to do this. And I'm sure that Coyote
and myself are not the only two men on earth who feel this way.

I'm awfully sorry that the men you have come across have not been ethical,
moral and decent. And I can see how you feel that way.

I can't offer you any advice, only my deepest regrets that this has
happened to you.

Peter


FEfor something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?
Yes.

Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate, understanding,
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:01:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Noble wrote:

I second, third, fourth etc. that
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!

Patricia


Every place she CHOOSES to be!

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:26:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607030226.TAA03515@netcom6.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1326

Sorceress wrote:

If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...

Jeez- if anyone believes this I have some good desert land
to show them, plenty of water, cool breezes,,, ;P

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?

Yes.

Peter, if you stick around here long enough you'll find that
women do a much better job than other men of affirming men as
=human beings= and of setting us free from the burden of gender.
They return to us our childhood -if we let them- which is to say
we get our playful, creative, spontaneous selves back and let them
worry about womanly issues like power and sex. :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 22:31:01 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31DA0595.FA8@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

oh! big hugs Coyote...you may be the exception that proves the rule
(@) (@)
c
\_____/
Patricia

Coyote Sings wrote:

Sorceress wrote:

If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...

Jeez- if anyone believes this I have some good desert land
to show them, plenty of water, cool breezes,,, ;P

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?

Yes.

Peter, if you stick around here long enough you'll find that
women do a much better job than other men of affirming men as
=human beings= and of setting us free from the burden of gender.
They return to us our childhood -if we let them- which is to say
we get our playful, creative, spontaneous selves back and let them
worry about womanly issues like power and sex. :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 22:58:56 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: "femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Pat and Peter
Message-ID: <31D8BAA0.732E@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia certainly made some strong comments, and Peter questioned the
sexist overtones which is understandable. However, Peter, we should
interpret those remarks by keeping the context of women being unfairly
beaten down for thousands of years by physically superior men. Pat
understands better than most because of her sharply refined consciousness
in these matters. By the way Pat, I'm glad you only have those revenge
thoughts on a rare basis! As a man, I don't feel the need to serve ANY
purpose to be accepted. God has given me life, therefore I deserve
respect as a member of womankind (got ya)! All womankind should respect
any person, regardless of race or sex just because they are alive and are
a "being" in this universe. What's in my shirt or pants or dress or kilt
for that matter should not cause people to judge me anymore than the
color of my skin, or my religion?
Equality does not mean "the same," we are sooooooooo different, but
that's what produces the spark, the fire, seeing a reflection of self in
a lover or friend that is so different yet the same. Viva la difference!
NO Peter Pat doesn't think we're pond scum, so you can relax! By the time
you read this I'm sure Pat will have thundered across the screen, but it
was fun to reflect and respond to you both

(No offense to anyone's religion)
God Bless
Spirit Wind and Debora, goddess of love.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 04:13:15 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607030409.EAA03113@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 2 Jul 96 at 7:32, Laura Goodwin quoted somebody who was I
gather following up one of our posts. Laura said that

the person wrote:


In an ancient society with men already enjoying political
dominance and seeking solutions for the world order they
found themselves in, might it have seemed quite plausible
to decide to blame the object who at once drew and emptied
them sexually for the ills of the world they endured?


The problem I have is who wrote this and when?

I haven't received this, which seems strange, and a little
irritating since it is apparaently in response to something we
wrote.

Can the sender please re-post this in the hope that I'll receive
it the second time around. Or alternatively Email me a copy.

Warmest regards,

David Stevenson.

Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 22:33:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Ronald Forster
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

As a rule I only lurk in the background (in this a great many other
groups) to learn what others are thinking. However peter's post only
begins to inject the truth about men' role in today's world. My main
focus is with children abd not sexual play.

Children that grow up without fathers are:

1. Three to four times more likely tofail a grade of school

2. Fourty % more likely to need psychological help

3. Twenty % more likely to physical problems.

4. 66 % of proven cases of children abused by a parent are abused by the
mother.

5. 80 % of teens in jail grew up in single (mom) parent homes.

6. 80 plus % of teen age pregency (girls 16 and under) grew up in single
(moms) parent homes.

7. On and on ..... The point her is not that kids do better with dads or
moms but that both are important to kids and by extension to the world 's
cultures at large.

Not a flame but reality.

Ron

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, peter wrote:

I am certain this posting will cause a lot of controversy. And I certainly
hope no one -- especially Laura and Patricia -- take it the wrong way. And
I apologize now if I misread their postings.

But it really pains me to read responses like this, especially as someone
who has the deepest of respect for everything on earth: plants, animals,
geological features, the environment ... you name it.

But certainly men must be good for something. Or at least some men are good
for something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
reproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
that.
Do you really believe that?

I know Laura has written often about her husband and what a fine person he
is. Aren't there other men out there like him?

Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate, understanding,
don't beat their wives, don't molest their children, and try to live a
decent life as best they can?

Aren't there men who truly respect and cherish women (and I'm not talking
in a dom-sub relationship)?

Aren't men good for something else than reproduction?

I really can't believe that people would have thoughts like this about the
opposite sex.

I could go on, but I am really upset.

I'm sure (or at least I hope) that I have misread this and I'm begging for
a clarification. And I'm sure I will have to further clarify what I have
just written after I give it more thought.

And please be gentle with me, I most certainly don't mean to insult your
intelligence with this response.
Thank you
Peter

Laura Goodwin wrote:

Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...

to which Patricia responds:

Actually, while that may have been some of the psychological gobbly gook
that was going around at the time, the struggle against women by men for
dominance was a political and economic one. It was the subjugation of
tribes, clans and local power against centralized, hierarchal power
systems. When 9 million women were burned as witches in Europe, it was
as much an economic revolution as a church led one. The church just
helped and gave legitimacy to the misogyny (sound familiar).

For example: Men were writing down and learning "medicine". These male
professinal doctors were new on the scene and most people still went to
their local healer "in most cases a woman". The new male docs could get
no patients. Male doctors were invasive and painful...while local women
healers offered more holistic solutions and used herbs with ancient
known medicinal powers. Thus, the witch is over the boiling pot. They
had to get rid of these women in order to have people go to these new
male doctors. This is just one example of one great motivator for the
great burnings.

An interesting side note to this, is the use of the name faggots for
homosexual men. It comes from the witch burnings. When a woman or
women were staked to burn and all the wood was piled underneath them to
start the fire....many times male homosexuals were thrown on the pile as
it started to burn....thus the term faggots.

Laura wrote:
At best, it can be proven that men play a necessary role in
conception only;

Actually men do not any longer have to be alive to play that necessary
role in conception. Male sperm can be frozen and kept for years and
still work...this cannot be done with the female egg. When men
sometimes tell me I am not very kind, I say, you are here aren't
you..that proves the most important kindness. Many feminist separatists
have talked about the day men are no longer on the planet in any large
scale. In those days, sperm will be frozen and used to produce only
female children....since sex can be identified before birth. Some males
with superior genetic backgrounds will be allowed to be born...kept as
cattle in pens...when old enough to be milked for their sperm..they will
be and then done away with. While i do not subscribe to this dream of
the future (although when patriarchy really pisses me off...I do think
of it) as of this moment and into the ancient future...males are really
no longer needed, at least, for the physical contribution they give to
childbirth.
Patricia



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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
now you've done it.
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
MS magazine?
Reports and convictions.
Are all men crooks without a conscience?
another
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: genesis consequences
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: another
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:32:28 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31DA220C.6932@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

excuse me Ronald but these stats are totally incorrect...they are taken
from a male based study...with a bias so wide the grand canyon would
fall into it...According to a study by MS magazine..the facts are
exactly the opposite. I will go over yours point-by-point. who took this
study you gave us...there is always a bias...how were people
interviewed? How were the statistical percentages figured..what was
base..what is the margin of error?

ronald wrote:

Children that grow up without fathers are:

1. Three to four times more likely tofail a grade of school

According to the MS. Study children who grow up in one parent families
do better than children in two parents homes, when the two parent home
has violence or alienated parents in the house. According to the MS.
study of those students who moved ahead in grades earlier and took early
admission in to college...fully 60% were from one parent homes.

2. Fourty % more likely to need psychological help

According to the MS. study children in one parent households learn how
to be self-sufficient and self-starters and need less professional
psychological help then children in two parent homes.

this question itself is loaded...who decides what is psychologically
wrong with a child....who..the status quo thats who..you can bet if some
child goes to some school and tells the teacher that two women living
together is wonderful...someone will send that child to a shrink.
I use to get all A's in school and D's in behavior..because I was damn
bright and damn bored..you can bet they would have sent me to a shrink
if they had such things in those days...but is was not me who was sick
.. it was an educational system..trying to make all us different sized
and shaped young pegs..fit into their square hole.


3. Twenty % more likely to physical problems.

part of the reason they might have more physical problems is because,
when a father leaves the home his income increases by 60% (the income he
gets to use) while the families income decreases by the same amount. If
he pays or does not pay child support this great divergence in standard
of living holds up. children can't get the best kind of medical help
anymore..because mom cannot afford insurance...even when she works...she
will make 67 cents for every $1.00 a man makes even at the same job.
and, in fact, over 70% of those fathers ordered by the court to pay
child support...DO NOT.

4. 66 % of proven cases of children abused by a parent are abused by
the
mother.

that is total bullshit. of all sexual abuse cases reported in the
country...1% names the mother as the perpetrator. where did you get
these figures from..jerry falwell?

5. 80 % of teens in jail grew up in single (mom) parent homes.

lets refer back to economics again...and this figure is incorrect...54%
of male juvenile offenders come from one parent homes. 80% of female
children who run away from home..do so to get away from sexual abuse by
the man in the house....

6. 80 plus % of teen age pregency (girls 16 and under) grew up in single
(moms) parent homes.

again blatantly untrue....give us your source for these stats and the
way the questions were asked and the weighting for statistical
error...anyone can use any figures to prove anything they want.
We had case in Colorado when they were trying to get triple wide
trailors made legal to ride the roads in Colorado. Those in favor made
a statement that there were only 3 truck accidents the prior year that
involved triple wides. there were more than 50 that involved double
wides.

to prove their point in percentages they added up all the trucks on the
road and the percentages turned out to be something like .0001% of
triple wides were involved in accidents. while 10% of double wides were
in accidents ..so which is safer...looks good huh...problem is..

if you have 510 trucks on the road and 10% is valid
since 499 of them are double wides..however..there were only 11 triple
wides in the whole state. if you use the right number..3/11 (three
divided by 11..the whole populations of triple wides) you get 27% of all
the triple wides on the road....had accidents..now thats a horse of a
different color...is it not...

This is my field....I know this stuff. That's why I got into this
field..so they could not use those figures so wildly against us anymore.

NOT REALITY AT ALL(and no one should ever take figures like these
seriously if the person who throws them out does not give you the source
from whence they came)
Patricia

Not a flame but reality.

Ron


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:53:52 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

FEI knew someone would post a message along these lines.

FEI knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met nothing but abuse
FEfrom men all her life.

It's just too, too sad, isn't it?
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:17:39 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31DA2CA3.602D@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorceress your a woman made in the image of the goddess, if your ever in
my neck of the woods...lets do lunch, my treat
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEI knew someone would post a message along these lines.

FEI knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met nothing but abuse
FEfrom men all her life.

It's just too, too sad, isn't it?
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:40:28 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: now you've done it.
Message-ID: <31DA31FC.767F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am on the web hunting down statistics....but before I give you the
first one I would like to add. the major reason for all the
difficulties mentioned..by roger?..even if his figures were way off..is
economics and not single parent households..when men leave and don't pay
child suppor they leave their families poor....
his stats came up with information..inaccurate...but information based
on the wrong causal precedent. it is not single moms who make these
problems..it is economics and dad leaving and not paying his share..

now my first stat...from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 95% of
all serial killers were raised in two parent families....

now I go look for more..
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:57:55 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607030557.HAA21519@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As a rule I only lurk in the background (in this a great many other
groups) to learn what others are thinking. However peter's post only
begins to inject the truth about men' role in today's world. My main
focus is with children abd not sexual play.

Children that grow up without fathers are:

1. Three to four times more likely tofail a grade of school

2. Fourty % more likely to need psychological help

3. Twenty % more likely to physical problems.

4. 66 % of proven cases of children abused by a parent are abused by the
mother.

5. 80 % of teens in jail grew up in single (mom) parent homes.

6. 80 plus % of teen age pregency (girls 16 and under) grew up in single
(moms) parent homes.

7. On and on ..... The point her is not that kids do better with dads or
moms but that both are important to kids and by extension to the world 's
cultures at large.

Not a flame but reality.

Ron




Where does this nonsense come from????
Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 08:26:20 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: MS magazine?
Message-Id: <199607030626.IAA19036@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:32:28 -0700, Noble wrote:

fall into it...According to a study by MS magazine..the facts are

What's MS magazine?

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 08:32:52 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Reports and convictions.
Message-Id: <199607030632.IAA19756@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:32:28 -0700, Noble wrote:

4. 66 % of proven cases of children abused by a parent are abused by
the
mother.

that is total bullshit. of all sexual abuse cases reported in the
country...1% names the mother as the perpetrator. where did you get
these figures from..jerry falwell?

Reporting a crime does not make it true. I could report you for sexual
abuse of children. That doesn't make you an abuser. What are the figures for
convictions? Citing figures for *reports* of sexual abuse is pointless in my
opinion.

NOT REALITY AT ALL(and no one should ever take figures like these
seriously if the person who throws them out does not give you the source
from whence they came)

Noone should ever take any statement as fact without considering who's
making it and why.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 08:16:24 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Are all men crooks without a conscience?
Message-Id: <199607030616.IAA18049@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:51:32 -0500, sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is

I'm sorry you've had such terrible experiences with men, but I can't
imagine that *all* men are like that. I've yet to cheat on a woman or abuse
her in any way. At least not from my point of view, and no woman has ever
told me, that she feels that I have abused her.

Perhaps you're looking in the wrong places?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 03:10:40 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: another
Message-ID: <31DA4720.379E@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

According to the National Education Association, in 1954, when single
parent households made up less than 10 % of families, only 47% of those
students who entered high school..graduated or completed high school.

In 1996 when single parent households are nearly more than 40% of
families, 89% of students who enter high school..graduate or complete
high school.....

hmmm...someones doing something better.
Patricia....in statsville now

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 03:22:04 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31DA49CC.6C9@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bernd wanted to know:

Where does this nonsense come from????
Bernd

It comes from the irrational male mind trying to use "science" to prove
his superiorty...since women were so discriminated against in the
sciences they thought they were safe coming up with these statistical
tools.....HOWEVER...we know from our intuition what is...and what isn't
sensible....but since the rooster was ruling the roost with this
game..we learned it..and now we can use their science to prove our
intuition was always right....there is nothing that man can do that
woman cannot learn how to do, (if her heart desires) and do better.

call it womb envy, ovary envy, man as illogical, man as "HIS"terical,
man as anti-intuitive and either too afraid or too testosterone filled
to evolve. women will either lead them (many of them) kicking and
screaming into the ancient future...or use them for compost on the
flowers we will feed growing through the cracks of the concrete corset
they have covered our mother the earth with
....we will breathe again.
our mom and her daughters and hopefully some men who allow wisdom to
fill that currently somewhat empty cavity between their ears.
PATRICIA

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:23:01 -0700
From: morte@interlog.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31DA5815.6DB5@interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.

May I have this dance?

We are born out of revulsion. Bourne out of compulsion. A minor
electrical discharge in a second-rate brain releasing a sickly stream of
friendless stupidity. Base and banal as the hunger which it serves.
Based upon replication. Forged across an anvil of unnatural selection.
This pathetic appetite. This gnawing belly of pretense and self-deceit
does no more than fuel an already accursed engine of malignancy.
Reeling with disgust we evacuate our viral weakness into the puerile
promise of a deceased womb. Prison of hope and destroyer of virility.
Breeder of infirmity and church of contempt. Oh, disfigured creature who
would mate with corpses! Destiny is nothing. Thoughts mere cancer.
Fool! You who twitch sad spasm, squirting uselessness to affirm your own
existence, spewing mediocrity and deaths to come. You beget the enemy.
The abject fear of your former self. How laughable this pompous drive to
impregnate time and transient flesh with the spave of your ego. Less
primal than the lust of swine rutting in filth, you infect all species
with your crippling sense of permanence. Expect no respect from the
plague of hate we shall unleash upon thee. Your measly inconvenience will
be crushed and split. There is no dignity in your craving. No Honour to
be had in your ugly coupling. All that comes is carrion; weeping, dying,
consumed and distended passion. A malignant intent made flesh. Tricked by
embryonic kitsch. You will retch fourth maggots of love into the corpse
of your manhood as you perish, ugly pathogen of your species. Hear this,
worthless cripple! It is all over! Time is ending in your last drab
impotence. Your sperm a river of killing. Your vapid hunger a morbid
fulfilling. All is in vain. No hope. Just scattered seed and a target of
submission. Inside those walls of slime and mothly decay only deaths.
Within your orbs of lifelessness only reflex illusion. This sickness is
everywhere. The arrogance complete. For "God" so hated the world that he
despised his people. Making them in their own image. Cursed forever to
consume their destiny and greatness, copulating in offal like the gross
abomination that they are. A sorry excuse for the loss of immortality.
Vomit fourth your kind as you please! Foul bent cripple! Nobility is
lost to you. You reproduce only a malignancy. loathsome tumour of
carrion! Soon, so soon, we shall slice through the rotten tissue you
inhabit and cauterize your source in a sea of BLOOD.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 09:57:38 +0100
From: fiona and robert forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: genesis consequences
Message-ID: <5VVlZBACYj2xEw6$@forsythe.demon.co.uk

Thankyou coyote for your welcome.

Seeing how we got on with a first post has been quite educational. Using
the internet is a big learning curve for us. We are both (semi??)
academic folk with Robert frustratingly not functioning in that
context.

Very interested in your comments on Genesis which are being kept to mull
over. It is only fifteen years ago Robert was spending money on what was
said to be the definitive Genesis commentary by Von Rad which of course
has not a word on this.


I have made the best of its contradictions, and take it as
a giant practical joke on the part of Woman (Eve - 'Ava) and
her Serpent friend (Wisdom/Sophia, Self-Awareness, Goddess) as
they savor the Bad News to the now property-obsessed Adam:
"No more hunting trips with the boys for you, Sparky- now you
have to go out and get a =job=. Toast thou art, and to toast thou
thou shalt return." The Serpent never deserted Eve (or any of us).

We want to play with the above a lot...........


I'll send you some 'She Who is' posts and cites privately if
you wish. The folks here already know I'm a Space Catholic of the
Anglican mystic stripe and deserve to be spared the details. ;P
But it seems we're here for about the same reasons.

Yes please do so and we probably are.

Anglican mysticism: We are keen on Centuries by Thomas Traherne first
written c1670 and in editions by Faith Press 1960-75, the good lady
Julian of Norwich, John Donne (wonderfully quoted by Helen Henley's
Enter with Trumpets from Shiny Books).

Donne and Julian are perhaps quite well known. Traherne is vastly
underrated and we are sure many members of the group could enjoy him,
equally Helen Henley's volume written by a Jewess is a most remarkable
celebration of kinky life as its most deviant and kind.

We don't doubt there is a lot more we could say but we are about to go
on holiday and we have a rare visitation to the house from freelance
paymasters later today so for now

take care and goodbye


fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:40:01 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Coyote:
In other words, the only purpose of men is to be childish reproductive
machines until such time as women will enjoy making love to a test tube?
Peter

Sorceress wrote:

If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...

Jeez- if anyone believes this I have some good desert land
to show them, plenty of water, cool breezes,,, ;P

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?

Yes.

Peter, if you stick around here long enough you'll find that
women do a much better job than other men of affirming men as
=human beings= and of setting us free from the burden of gender.
They return to us our childhood -if we let them- which is to say
we get our playful, creative, spontaneous selves back and let them
worry about womanly issues like power and sex. :]
--


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:56:25 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: another
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This war of figures reminds me of the 6-foot-tall statistician who drowned
in a lake that had an average depth of 3 feet.
Peter


According to the National Education Association, in 1954, when single
parent households made up less than 10 % of families, only 47% of those
students who entered high school..graduated or completed high school.

In 1996 when single parent households are nearly more than 40% of
families, 89% of students who enter high school..graduate or complete
high school.....

hmmm...someones doing something better.
Patricia....in statsville now

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:42:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607031242.FAA09837@netcom7.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1260

Peter asked:

In other words, the only purpose of men is to be childish reproductive
machines until such time as women will enjoy making love to a test tube?

Who said anything about reproductive roles?

No: I was talking about child=like= (not child-ish) creative qualities:
wonder, discovery, taking things apart and putting them together in a new
way.

I had in mind child-like men like Einstein and Albert Schweitzer and the
Buddha and St Francis and Van Gogh. I doubt if they were overly
preoccupied with their reproductive roles or with wielding power.

But I'll bet all of them were fulfilled on both counts, precisely because
they chose to abdicate that baggage in favor of a creative life.

I hope this helps- I remember being in some pain about these issues just
a week or so back.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607031253.FAA10243@netcom7.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 497

morte began

May I have this dance?

and wrote. and wrote.
and ended with

Vomit fourth your kind as you please!

No, no! Vomit fifth! Sixth, I say!

Switch to Decaf? Check the Lithium?

mythic737@alt.email.net

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 133

Today's Topics:
Genesis: 2 versions
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Genesis: 2 versions
Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Genesis: 2 versions

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:01:41 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-Id: <199607031401.HAA17778@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

Speaking of just what's observeable by anyone with a Bible, let us open
to chapter one.

In Genesis one, we are given a version of creation where the cosmos,
planet, plants, animals and people appear in pretty much the same order
as the Evolutionists would have it. Interestingly, men and women are
created simultaneously, in God's image, and they *together* are blessed
and told to multiply, and to enjoy dominion over the earth and earth's
creatures. And God saw everything and behold, it was very good.
*Everything* was *good*. The universe was good; the world was good;
the plants were good; the animals were good (even snakes); people were
good (men *and* women). Obviously sex was good, because God created
sex, and told all the creatures to multiply, with blessings.

In Genesis two, we are offered a completely contradictory picture of
the creation of humankind, starting with Genesis 2:7. This is the
familiar story of Adam being formed, then Eve much later, after Adam
hung around for a while naming things. The implication here, as has
been argued for centuries without any help from me, is that Eve was
less important, and apparently subordinate to Adam. She is created
almost as an afterthought, so Adam can have a "helpmeet", whatever the
heck that is. They are punished for disobeying a frivolous rule (with
Eve later bearing the brunt of the Church's blame), and are ordered to
work the land for a living and multiply, with curses.

(BTW, The first divinely ordained clothes given by God to people are
animal skins! *Genesis 3:21*, a hint as to the antiquity of this
fable.)

IMHO, since the Bible contradicts itself so clearly in the first
chapter, I find it impossible to take Biblical scripture as a whole to
be the one seamless word/opinion/view of "God", AKA the author of the
universe. The universe is one seamless and wonderfully ordered
creation, whereas the Bible is a self-contradictory collection of
garbled history, fables, and anti-Goddess propaganda. I think if "God"
troubled to write only one book, it would be a real humdinger, not this
superstitious and unliterary nonsense. I personally feel that the
Bible is important for historical reasons only, and shudder to think of
anyone seriously trying to make sense of it enough to use it as a
blueprint for living.

(BTW, I feel a bit forced to add that I have nothing against my
Christian friends. It's Christianity itself I question the value of.
I question the relevance of the entire Judeo-Christian gestalt.
Naturally, I have nothing but compassion for all people, whatever their
beliefs.)

IMHO, the time has come and gone when any of that holds any fresh
wisdom for any modern person. With modern scientific advances, the
Bible has been stripped of every one of it's mythological underpinnings
and y'know, the emperor has no clothes on and NO ONE CARES. The only
"religious" struggles that continue are laid bare for what they really
are: political power/money/land grabs. Saying God approves of misery
and destruction for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that it's
misery and destruction. Reckless waste, pure and simple. Somehow, I
just don't find that very inspiring.

In the first version of Genesis, we are told that the world is good,
and we are intended to live happily here in paradise with God's
blessing. I'll stand pat with that. What if it's true? What if the
only way to really fulfill God's will is to nurture the earth and enjoy
a peaceful life on a healthy planet? As you can plainly see, there is
scripture to support that view.
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 10:05:09 -0700
From: morte@interlog.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31DAA845.23BF@interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings wrote:

morte began

May I have this dance?

and wrote. and wrote.
and ended with

Vomit fourth your kind as you please!

No, no! Vomit fifth! Sixth, I say!

Switch to Decaf? Check the Lithium?
I hope she sings :)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:07:59 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607031407.HAA11294@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com


But certainly men must be good for something. Or at least some men are
good for something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I really don't understand why people would say that men are good only
for reproduction ...

Don't misunderstand me. All I said was that the only thing men are
absolutely necessary for is reproduction. Women can do everything
else. That's not the same as saying men are only good for one thing ;).

Everybody here knows that men are good for lots of stuff. The
Patriarchal age produced marvelous things. Don't be silly. :)

Think about how you feel being told that reproduction is your sex's
only unique gift to life: women have been told this for ages. Gee, how
does it feel?
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 10:12:02 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

FESorceress your a woman made in the image of the goddess, if your ever in
FEmy neck of the woods...lets do lunch, my treat
FEPatricia

We are Goddess incarnate. If you find yourself on Long Island one day,
let me return the favor.

Thank you.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 10:29:04 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

FEour mom and her daughters and hopefully some men who allow wisdom to
FEfill that currently somewhat empty cavity between their ears.
FEPATRICIA

ADDENDUM: It is a biological fact that all fetuses begin
life as intrinsically female. It is not until the last
few moments that testosterone sets in to create a penis,
almost as an afterthought...of course, since the fetus
is already formed, the testicular and erectile tissue
must come from SOMEWHERE, so the human body uses migratory
tissue that comes from the most under-utilized-least
frequently used organ, the BRAIN.

Knowing what we do of human anatomy, we realize that when
a man becomes erect, that migratory tissue (brain) gets
sucked down into the genitalia, causing the very "empty
cavity" that Patricia alludes to! ERGO: The bigger the
penis (and the erection) the bigger the cavity.

(c)bk, 1996
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 10:43:40 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-ID:

FE(BTW, The first divinely ordained clothes given by God to people are
FEanimal skins! *Genesis 3:21*, a hint as to the antiquity of this
FEfable.)
I used to teach alternative theology and comparative
religion--one of the things that I considered, is that
the "skin" referred to in the bible is not literally the
hide of deceased animals, but the living skin, the flesh
of the human body. Interesting to think that humanity
was truly created in the image of "god" who had no
corporeal form, but was pure "spirit" or "force," and
the "punishment" was to dwell in the flesh and give
birth in sorrow, and work until we die...

FE(BTW, I feel a bit forced to add that I have nothing against my
FEChristian friends. It's Christianity itself I question the value of.
FEI question the relevance of the entire Judeo-Christian gestalt.
FENaturally, I have nothing but compassion for all people, whatever their
FEbeliefs.)
Since we are of the same persuasion, I understand your
feelings...but Christianity in and of itself is a
powerful force for good...if it is understood and
applied. Not in our lifetime, though.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:43:40 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-Id: <199607031543.IAA16581@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

I wrote:

(BTW, The first divinely ordained clothes given by God to people are
animal skins! *Genesis 3:21*, a hint as to the antiquity of this
fable.)

Sorceress wrote:

I used to teach alternative theology and comparative
religion--one of the things that I considered, is that
the "skin" referred to in the bible is not literally the
hide of deceased animals, but the living skin, the flesh
of the human body.

If that view is correct, I don't see why God would give them additional
coats of skins if they already had skin. Redundant, eh, what?


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:29:09 +0100
From: fiona and robert forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-ID: <3owMHEAV$p2xEw5t@forsythe.demon.co.uk

In message <199607031401.HAA17778@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com, Laura Goodwin

Speaking of just what's observeable by anyone with a Bible, let us open
to chapter one.

In Genesis one,

and Laura wrote a lot more as you will (should) all have seen.

Thankyou Laura for going to this effort to answers strangers from a
Northumberland hillside (UK) who have wandered into your midst.
Gradually we will absorb it.

Thankyou also to the others in the group for writing to us.

For both of us, it is heartwarming to think there are other folk out
there who want to think about these things. Neither of us are ever very
good at being party people (church, politics, football teams) and so
whether we will ever sign up to fem supremacy per se, well, the bets are
open.

BUT after the last seven years of marriage when from day one Robert has
been a househusband/freelance portfolio careerer and Fiona has had a
rewarding career at work, much has had to be learnt. Increasingly we
have both discovered the joy of role reversal in our play times too.

Robert speaks now: "discovering I am a sexual sub and having to learn
that her pleasure comes first for as long as she wills is just divine,
even more amazing/lucky/beautiful has been seeing her gradual joy at
becoming a sexual domme".

So there we go for now, we hope we will both learn many more lovely
things from all of you out there. Of course should there be any couples
from these islands who feel a mite isolated, do mail.

Take care for now
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 20:46:35 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607031846.UAA30707@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bernd wanted to know:

Where does this nonsense come from????
Bernd

It comes from the irrational male mind trying to use "science" to prove
his superiorty...since women were so discriminated against in the
sciences they thought they were safe coming up with these statistical
tools.....HOWEVER...we know from our intuition what is...and what isn't
sensible....but since the rooster was ruling the roost with this
game..we learned it..and now we can use their science to prove our
intuition was always right....there is nothing that man can do that
woman cannot learn how to do, (if her heart desires) and do better.

call it womb envy, ovary envy, man as illogical, man as "HIS"terical,
man as anti-intuitive and either too afraid or too testosterone filled
to evolve. women will either lead them (many of them) kicking and
screaming into the ancient future...or use them for compost on the
flowers we will feed growing through the cracks of the concrete corset
they have covered our mother the earth with
....we will breathe again.
our mom and her daughters and hopefully some men who allow wisdom to
fill that currently somewhat empty cavity between their ears.
PATRICIA



Hi
You seem to be very upset about this statistics. I think there are a lot of
strange and extremly biased statistics about what ever you want. I normaly
dont read this stuff. Well, in this case i couldnt resist of shaking my
head, saying oh my goddness why do i have to read this...?
Ok. It wasnt so bad, but i generally dont give much about stats, they are
always wrong, even if they are true.
I know a woman who is absolutly overstreched (is it the right term?) with
her two, now 13 and 10 years old sons. Her big problem is that these two
sons do still, maybe to annoy her, ask for their father, who is ..hm,
well.. exactly the kind of man, who permanently appears in this list:
stupid, doesnt pay, doesnt give a damm about his kids and the mother of
them. I cant understand this.
But not enough with that, she is now over 50 and doesnt have a job and, i
fear, wont get any job anymore.(too old,too woman)
But even in this really hard and extreme situation i wasnt able to find any
point of this statistic true. NO! The kids arent better or worse in school
than others, and NO! they arent aggressive and they dont seem to be on the
way to jail..etc..
I am aware that my example is a single case and of course not
representative in any way.
But this kind of statistics want to show how bad it is to be alone or to be
a , oh my god(!), woman on her own feet.(feaar feaar)
Many people are impressed as soon as they read something official or any
pseudo-scientific numbers which look like being proofed over and over, but
in the end you ALWAYS see WHO the stats made.(males, females, reps,
democrats , catholics etc etc..)
I wouldnt give so much about this.
But your right, it is propaganda.

Sincerly yours


Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 21:33:20 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607032128.VAA15798@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 2 Jul 96 at 20:51, sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote....

maybe it is true of
all of the men in my "neighborhood."


For give me for stating the obvious, but maybe it is time to
change neighbourhood. Most of the people I meet have more good
qualities than bad, whatever their sex or preferences.

Although I admit my neighbourhood is a fair distance from yours.

BTW the way, I am still completely in the dark as to why this
thread bears our name.

Love,
David Stevenson.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 14:04:26 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31DAE05A.1D5F@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dennis (t.o.m.)--

I apologise for a somewhat *strident* posting, but as a father of 3 children,
I feel strongly about exposing children to adult scenarios (alcohol, drugs,
bdsm etc.), instead, protect them and teach them to be intelligent enough to
make their own way (and make up their own minds) in this world with safety.

I would never allow my daughter being involved in any of those things.
My daughter was molested when she was 4 by a "family friend" and the last
thing I would want is for her to be subjected to anything that would be beyond
her years in that arena. I take good care of her, but have never had a live-in
sub before and I wanted to find out how others manage their bdsm lives if
they have children. Thanks for your input.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:23:53 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura wrote:
Think about how you feel being told that reproduction is your sex's
only unique gift to life: women have been told this for ages. Gee, how
does it feel?


It doesn't feel very nice. I certainly don't feel this way, and neither do
more men than you realize.
Peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 14:27:41 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31DAE5CD.4981@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

tony--

Laura deals with the issue with humour and wisdom in
The first time this was said, our 7 year old asked:



Her answer,


think that's fair?

Our 7 year old,



and the subject has never again been brought up, but has not been forgotten.
And at times when Daddy is tempting fate, one of the kids may pop up with a
statement such as


Other than W.C. Fields, whoever said kids weren't a joy!!

Both Laura and you have great senses of humor and I appreciate that very much.
It just proves to me that we all need to take life with a dose of humor and
never take ourselves too seriously. Thanks for the advice.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:56:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-Id: <199607032256.PAA20322@netcom9.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 7054

It's interesting to finding myself on this side of the table. Usually
I'm over where Laura is sitting, railing at fundamentalists. That said,
and not to refute anyone so much as to illuminate, let me go on:

Laura wrote:

Speaking of just what's observeable by anyone with a Bible, let us open
to chapter one.

It isn't the first chapter, though. The Genesis stories were
compiled somewhat later from their several sources.
Fundamentalists are taught that Moses just sat down one weekend
and dashed off the first five books of the OT. Wrong.

*Everything* was *good*. The universe was good; the world was good;
the plants were good; the animals were good (even snakes); people were
good (men *and* women). Obviously sex was good, because God created
sex,,,,

Damn straight it's good!,,, ;D

IMHO, since the Bible contradicts itself so clearly in the first
chapter, I find it impossible to take Biblical scripture as a whole to
be the one seamless word/opinion/view of "God", AKA the author of the
universe. The universe is one seamless and wonderfully ordered
creation,

Is it? I experience it as wonderfully chaotic, random and
filled with surprises, riotously unfolding. Within that, I will
agree that most (but not all) of the pieces fit, but often in
subtle ways we can't detect. I will agree to 'connected,' but not
'ordered.' My experience only. I like Stephen Jay Gould's and Carl
Sagan's descriptions of the universe, especially Gould's.

whereas the Bible is a self-contradictory collection of
garbled history, fables, and anti-Goddess propaganda.

Yes, it is that. Almost intentionally, to accommodate the
several contending world-views and agenda within the Hebrew
polity over about a thousand years (and is still going on-
I have no doubt that the persecutions of the Jews beginning
with Paul's betrayal and ending in the Holocaust will someday
be part of the Jewish scripture).

The thing to remember is that the OT is a =compilation=, an
almost literal cut-and-paste job- you can almost see the
lines- of materials from very different sources. (These technically
are called J, E, P and D for Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly and
Deuteronomic, but, right, not really important here except to
say that they represent radically different views of the G entity.
If the E rather than the J & P views had prevailed, Christianity
would now be much more woman-friendly and almost polytheistic.)

(By 'Bible' you mean the OT, and especially the 'first' books,
I'm assumimg. The Psalms and the Prophets had slightly
different purposes.)

I think if "God"
troubled to write only one book, it would be a real humdinger, not this
superstitious and unliterary nonsense.

Well, 'God' doesn't write books, people do, and people are
given to little flaws from time to time. ;

I respectfully disagree about the literary quality, whether
in Stuart English or Hebrew, but's that's another issue. ;d
The Hebrew is awesome, if only to hear. Can't understand a word
of it, though.

Don't we have these same problems with any body of ancient mythic
literature? I'm thinking especially of all the AyuraVedic stories
and songs, but all the others as well. Yet we treasure them.

I could also argue that almost everything people do is informed
by 'supersition.' Look at Marxists- they were =obsessed= with
the Holy Spirit, and atheists are the most superstitious of all-
believing in nothing but raw unconnected magick and linear time.

I personally feel that the
Bible is important for historical reasons only, and shudder to think of
anyone seriously trying to make sense of it enough to use it as a
blueprint for living.

which is why most serious Christians don't use it that way.
Think of it more as an ancient collection of pointers- a proto
website, raising more questions than it answers. The fine parts
of Bible are its silences. ;D

We need this stuff from the past- however imperfect it is- to
connect with the Archetypes and myths we meet there, and accept
or reject them in our own (personal) struggle for identity. If we
reject myths, we reject the past, and then reject identity itself.
Or brew our own disconnected identity, and that way lies madness.

I question the relevance of the entire Judeo-Christian gestalt.

But make a valuable point: it =is= a gestalt- a collection
of 'Aha!'s. Nothing more. No blueprint, no magic bullets.

As for 'relevance,' anything that bestows identity is pretty
relevant. I wouldn't be here, would never have had the wit or
the courage to be here (this List and its implied community and
values) if I hadn't first partaken of this particular 'gestalt.'
I'd just be out cruising a.s.fd. for a good beating. ;

IMHO, the time has come and gone when any of that holds any fresh
wisdom for any modern person. With modern scientific advances, the
Bible has been stripped of every one of it's mythological underpinnings
and y'know, the emperor has no clothes on and NO ONE CARES.

Yabbit how come a) I'm totally at home with both science and
religion occupying the same cognitive space, and b) I do
passionately care? Good myth and good science can be totally
reconciled, and are in fact two ways of dealing with the same
phenomena. One is strings, the other brass. All I'm asking is
that we listen to the whole orchestra. All aspects of human
consciousness are connected to all others, both in time and in
content.

The only
"religious" struggles that continue are laid bare for what they really
are: political power/money/land grabs. Saying God approves of misery
and destruction for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that it's
misery and destruction. Reckless waste, pure and simple. Somehow, I
just don't find that very inspiring.

No, but a lot of people do. I call them Ayatollahs, and they're
not all in the Middle East. Some were in Montana, and some it
seems are right on my doorstep.

In the first version of Genesis, we are told that the world is good,
and we are intended to live happily here in paradise with God's
blessing. I'll stand pat with that. What if it's true? What if the
only way to really fulfill God's will is to nurture the earth and enjoy
a peaceful life on a healthy planet? As you can plainly see, there is
scripture to support that view.

Bingo! :D
That's the message =I= got!
And as Timberwolf (gritting his teeth at all this God stuff) told
us:
"There is always something to cherish."

I gotta go. Peace, all.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Intelligence
Re: traceys last post
Congratulations (was Re: traceys last post)
Re: Intelligence
Re: Intelligence

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 16:02:57 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-ID: <31DAFC21.75A1@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura--

I agree with you Dennis. I'm not raising my son to be submissive, nor
my daughter to be dominant...I am rasing them to be tolerant of love's
variety and to have enough self-respect to pursue honest and truly
satisfying relationships. I support them no matter where love takes
them, and I *do* ask as much from them, yeah.

I think this is wonderful. I am not raising my daughter in anyway in
particular, but for sure, understanding, tolerating and caring for
other 'types' of people. Her best friend is a boy (is 13 a man yet?)
who is over 60% deaf. They have been friends for 6 years. She has
friends of other races and disabilities as well. She knows that my
friends range from all different types of people...and also know that
you cannot stereotype people because of how they look. I teach her
that what's important is how they look inside: can they be trusted,
honest, and loyal...are they my friends?

This is more of what I was wondering about the life-style, as well as
the daily rituals. Do you have little signals that you give each other
or do you have certain times of the day? How do you let each other
know and not let your son know? I don't want to get too personal, but
more how you work it into your daily lives.

The personal details about daddy and me are certainly none of their
business, but they can see that we are happy, unashamed, and honored by
our similarly leathered-up friends. They have also seen that our
friends are really cool and likeable, and they know better than some
people that the noise about perverts being dangerous or bad is simply
wrong.

I agree with this as well... Some perverts are criminals, but most
people that live life differently (that others call perverts) are not.
I don't consider bdsm, being bi, lesbian, gay, etc. being perverts.
I know it's semantics, but it's important that we don't use words that
have negative connotations.

Good ideas, Laura. Thanks.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 16:52:47 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-ID: <31DB07CF.46AD@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Phoenix--

Elation, release, and affirmation are not qualities found in abusive
relationships. I know, I've been there. Please believe that what my partner
and I share is NOT demeaning to either of us.

I can see that Female Domination would be a popular subject on a Female
Supremacy list, but I don't think everyone should feel that they have to
participate personally! The main thing to understand is that it is a type of
consensual play that affords pleasure to both sides.

This was so eloquent and I appreciate the candor and honesty. Thank you and
I think this could help anyone feel better about this subject.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 19:12:55 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-ID: <31DB28A7.2A97@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

steve--


Just wondered, do the Dominants and the submissives have widly varying
degrees of theur respective traits, eg; a submissive not really wanting
to dominate but not really feeling very submissive at that particular
time and do the Dominates sometimes have the same thing? I have read
some of the FAQ's that mention 'switches' but in my understanding this
term applies to people who are Dominate part of the time & submissive
the rest, not to people who dont have any real desire to do the other.

I know what you mean and I'm sure both subs and Dommes/Doms feel that way
on occassion. On alt.sex.femdom, I've read posts by Tanith Tyrr who has
said taht sometimes she is just too tired or not in the mood...I'm sure
this is true of everyone in the scene.

I don't think there is a problem if someone doesn't want to do something
at a given moment, but for a sub, this could be particularly hard,
especially if his Domme/Dom was in the mood and the sub wasn't. I don't
know how a Domme/Dom would handle that except for the fact that the sub is
required to do what the Domme/Dom wanted, when they wanted it.

But it is always a matter of consensual at any rate. If the Domme/sub
relationship was such, I'm sure the Domme would be forgiving of that...
or would She?

Been lurking here for a while and have been finding a lot of interesting
topics lately. I will second the motion that the list just wouldnt be
the same without Patricia, Laura, Tracey, Lady Jet, Lady Phoenix, or any
of the other regular contributers. IMHO, if you were to ask 100 Ladies
what they think the perfect sub, husband or anything else is you would
get 100 slightly to very different answers, all of which would be
correct. :)

Thanks for the compliment... I think if you asked 100 Ladies, I'm sure
that there would be more than 200 different answers... Depending on what
sort of mood I'm in or if a sub has just given me grief, I could give you
at least 3-5 different answers. ;

Lady Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 20:00:26 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID: <31DB33CA.6E94@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

timberwolf--

How come that all these lying oversimplifications are so popular? Why do we
persist in repeating them whenever they are fed to us, and whatever their
burden? Reality is complicated. Understanding it, and describing it, takes work,
hard and honest intellectual work. There seems to be nothing that man fears
more. It also takes courage, and that too is a scarce commodity. How much
simpler just to bounce back the silly slogans that our masters and manipulators
are throwing at us!

I don't know how much we actually believe, but I do know how much we would all
like to believe the oversimplifications. You're right about the hard work it
takes to figure things out. When an "expert" tells throws information at us,
we are more apt to believe it. Look at how many people that do not question a
physician's diagnosis. Not nearly enough. If I had listened to a neurosurgeon's
diagnosis and suggestion on how to treat my problem, I would have been totally
blind right now (Thank the Goddess for my own ability to question authority
figures). If people believe that someone is an authority on any subject, they
are more apt to believe it. However, many of the people on the list that brought
this subject up didn't say they believed it, just that they put it out there to
get feedback from all to see what we all thought of it.

BTW, for those who are interested in the reality behind the IQ humbug, I can
recommend S.J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1981 and many later editions).
I do not agree with all of Steve Gould's ideas about evolution (about which he
has written copiously and entertainingly in several other books) but this
exposure
of the IQ scam is superb. However, it is a scientifically reasoned book;
you will have to exercise your own intelligence when reading it. Still,
this seems to be rewarding work.

I will get a copy of this book to check it out--I was told i had an IQ of 142.
Oh well...

Lady Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 20:21:53 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: traceys last post
Message-ID: <31DB38D1.24D8@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lorraine Jobin wrote:

Thank you, Barry. Just as an amusing footnote, my sub is a former
high-ranking government official!! He brought out the Domina in me!! Let
the feds sink their teeth into that one!! And even more amusing, he loves
the fact that I'm outspoken about the government and encourages it... I
feel like the luckiest person on earth. I have finally met the sub of my
dreams!!

Lorraine--

I feel very happy for you that you finally found the sub of your dreams.
I am in the process of searching for the right one myself and have actually
found several possibilities... Time will tell... Congratulations!

Lady Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 20:22:14 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Congratulations (was Re: traceys last post)
Message-ID: <31DB38E6.6BFE@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lorraine Jobin wrote:

Thank you, Barry. Just as an amusing footnote, my sub is a former
high-ranking government official!! He brought out the Domina in me!! Let
the feds sink their teeth into that one!! And even more amusing, he loves
the fact that I'm outspoken about the government and encourages it... I
feel like the luckiest person on earth. I have finally met the sub of my
dreams!!

Lorraine--

I feel very happy for you that you finally found the sub of your dreams.
I am in the process of searching for the right one myself and have actually
found several possibilities... Time will tell... Congratulations!

Lady Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jul 96 05:24:24 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199607040324.FAA20747@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 03 Jul 1996 20:00:26 -0700, Jet wrote:

I will get a copy of this book to check it out--I was told i had an IQ of 142.

Although the value of IQ tests is debatable, the fact that someone is told
that they have an above average IQ, will probably make them perform better
intellectually. The brain is an odd organ :).

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 20:38:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Jet wrote:

Look at how many people that do not question a physician's diagnosis.
Not nearly enough.

Another reason for my belief in the ideals of this newsgroup. I have
been a health care professional for over twenty years and prefer female
over male physicians. Of course, when women first began to break into
the medical field many adopted a "more male than thou" attitude, but as
the years go by and more females become M.D.s their natural traits shine
through. Women *listen* to their patients, try to understand them, and
in the end do them more good.

(Thank the Goddess for my own ability to question authority
figures). If people believe that someone is an authority on any subject, they
are more apt to believe it.

Sometimes I feel I've spent most of my life defying authority. I have
seen so many men exercise their power by commanding, bullying and
coercing. Women, when they have shed the shackles of Patriarchy, are
capable of *leading*, and to me that is the essence of Female Supremacy.

I will get a copy of this book to check it out--I was told i had an IQ of 142.

When I was given my first IQ test back home they made me retake it
because they could not believe the results. After the second test I
heard what was to become a familiar refrain----"Son, you may be smart,
but you ain't right in the head" (pronounced "haid").

So don't pay any attention to the "Authorities"; seek knowledge, follow
your own inner beliefs and listen to those who would unselfishly assist
you. There are many of the latter on this newslist.

Peace,


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 135

Today's Topics:
Re:Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:42:54 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re:Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132
Message-ID: <31DA166E.7EE0@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com wrote:

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 132

Today's Topics:
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
now you've done it.
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
MS magazine?
Reports and convictions.
Are all men crooks without a conscience?
another
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: genesis consequences
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: another
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post

---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:32:28 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

excuse me Ronald but these stats are totally incorrect...they are taken
from a male based study...with a bias so wide the grand canyon would
fall into it...According to a study by MS magazine..the facts are
exactly the opposite. I will go over yours point-by-point. who took this
study you gave us...there is always a bias...how were people
interviewed? How were the statistical percentages figured..what was
base..what is the margin of error?

ronald wrote:

Children that grow up without fathers are:

1. Three to four times more likely tofail a grade of school

According to the MS. Study children who grow up in one parent families
do better than children in two parents homes, when the two parent home
has violence or alienated parents in the house. According to the MS.
study of those students who moved ahead in grades earlier and took early
admission in to college...fully 60% were from one parent homes.

2. Fourty % more likely to need psychological help

According to the MS. study children in one parent households learn how
to be self-sufficient and self-starters and need less professional
psychological help then children in two parent homes.

this question itself is loaded...who decides what is psychologically
wrong with a child....who..the status quo thats who..you can bet if some
child goes to some school and tells the teacher that two women living
together is wonderful...someone will send that child to a shrink.
I use to get all A's in school and D's in behavior..because I was damn
bright and damn bored..you can bet they would have sent me to a shrink
if they had such things in those days...but is was not me who was sick
.. it was an educational system..trying to make all us different sized
and shaped young pegs..fit into their square hole.

3. Twenty % more likely to physical problems.

part of the reason they might have more physical problems is because,
when a father leaves the home his income increases by 60% (the income he
gets to use) while the families income decreases by the same amount. If
he pays or does not pay child support this great divergence in standard
of living holds up. children can't get the best kind of medical help
anymore..because mom cannot afford insurance...even when she works...she
will make 67 cents for every $1.00 a man makes even at the same job.
and, in fact, over 70% of those fathers ordered by the court to pay
child support...DO NOT.

4. 66 % of proven cases of children abused by a parent are abused by
the
mother.

that is total bullshit. of all sexual abuse cases reported in the
country...1% names the mother as the perpetrator. where did you get
these figures from..jerry falwell?

5. 80 % of teens in jail grew up in single (mom) parent homes.

lets refer back to economics again...and this figure is incorrect...54%
of male juvenile offenders come from one parent homes. 80% of female
children who run away from home..do so to get away from sexual abuse by
the man in the house....

6. 80 plus % of teen age pregency (girls 16 and under) grew up in single
(moms) parent homes.

again blatantly untrue....give us your source for these stats and the
way the questions were asked and the weighting for statistical
error...anyone can use any figures to prove anything they want.
We had case in Colorado when they were trying to get triple wide
trailors made legal to ride the roads in Colorado. Those in favor made
a statement that there were only 3 truck accidents the prior year that
involved triple wides. there were more than 50 that involved double
wides.

to prove their point in percentages they added up all the trucks on the
road and the percentages turned out to be something like .0001% of
triple wides were involved in accidents. while 10% of double wides were
in accidents ..so which is safer...looks good huh...problem is..

if you have 510 trucks on the road and 10% is valid
since 499 of them are double wides..however..there were only 11 triple
wides in the whole state. if you use the right number..3/11 (three
divided by 11..the whole populations of triple wides) you get 27% of all
the triple wides on the road....had accidents..now thats a horse of a
different color...is it not...

This is my field....I know this stuff. That's why I got into this
field..so they could not use those figures so wildly against us anymore.

NOT REALITY AT ALL(and no one should ever take figures like these
seriously if the person who throws them out does not give you the source
from whence they came)
Patricia

Not a flame but reality.

Ron


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---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:53:52 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

FEI knew someone would post a message along these lines.

FEI knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met nothing but abuse
FEfrom men all her life.

It's just too, too sad, isn't it?
CybErotiComm Online

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Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:17:39 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Sorceress your a woman made in the image of the goddess, if your ever in
my neck of the woods...lets do lunch, my treat
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEI knew someone would post a message along these lines.

FEI knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met nothing but abuse
FEfrom men all her life.

It's just too, too sad, isn't it?
CybErotiComm Online

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---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: now you've done it.
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:40:28 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

I am on the web hunting down statistics....but before I give you the
first one I would like to add. the major reason for all the
difficulties mentioned..by roger?..even if his figures were way off..is
economics and not single parent households..when men leave and don't pay
child suppor they leave their families poor....
his stats came up with information..inaccurate...but information based
on the wrong causal precedent. it is not single moms who make these
problems..it is economics and dad leaving and not paying his share..

now my first stat...from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 95% of
all serial killers were raised in two parent families....

now I go look for more..
Patricia

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---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:57:55 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

As a rule I only lurk in the background (in this a great many other
groups) to learn what others are thinking. However peter's post only
begins to inject the truth about men' role in today's world. My main
focus is with children abd not sexual play.

Children that grow up without fathers are:

1. Three to four times more likely tofail a grade of school

2. Fourty % more likely to need psychological help

3. Twenty % more likely to physical problems.

4. 66 % of proven cases of children abused by a parent are abused by the
mother.

5. 80 % of teens in jail grew up in single (mom) parent homes.

6. 80 plus % of teen age pregency (girls 16 and under) grew up in single
(moms) parent homes.

7. On and on ..... The point her is not that kids do better with dads or
moms but that both are important to kids and by extension to the world 's
cultures at large.

Not a flame but reality.

Ron


Where does this nonsense come from????
Bernd

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---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: MS magazine?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 08:26:20 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"

On Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:32:28 -0700, Noble wrote:

fall into it...According to a study by MS magazine..the facts are

What's MS magazine?

---


"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

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---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Reports and convictions.
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 08:32:52 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"

On Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:32:28 -0700, Noble wrote:

4. 66 % of proven cases of children abused by a parent are abused by
the
mother.

that is total bullshit. of all sexual abuse cases reported in the
country...1% names the mother as the perpetrator. where did you get
these figures from..jerry falwell?

Reporting a crime does not make it true. I could report you for sexual
abuse of children. That doesn't make you an abuser. What are the figures for
convictions? Citing figures for *reports* of sexual abuse is pointless in my
opinion.

NOT REALITY AT ALL(and no one should ever take figures like these
seriously if the person who throws them out does not give you the source
from whence they came)

Noone should ever take any statement as fact without considering who's
making it and why.

---


"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

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---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Are all men crooks without a conscience?
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 08:16:24 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:51:32 -0500, sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is

I'm sorry you've had such terrible experiences with men, but I can't
imagine that *all* men are like that. I've yet to cheat on a woman or abuse
her in any way. At least not from my point of view, and no woman has ever
told me, that she feels that I have abused her.

Perhaps you're looking in the wrong places?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: another
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 03:10:40 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

According to the National Education Association, in 1954, when single
parent households made up less than 10 % of families, only 47% of those
students who entered high school..graduated or completed high school.

In 1996 when single parent households are nearly more than 40% of
families, 89% of students who enter high school..graduate or complete
high school.....

hmmm...someones doing something better.
Patricia....in statsville now

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Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 03:22:04 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Bernd wanted to know:

Where does this nonsense come from????
Bernd

It comes from the irrational male mind trying to use "science" to prove
his superiorty...since women were so discriminated against in the
sciences they thought they were safe coming up with these statistical
tools.....HOWEVER...we know from our intuition what is...and what isn't
sensible....but since the rooster was ruling the roost with this
game..we learned it..and now we can use their science to prove our
intuition was always right....there is nothing that man can do that
woman cannot learn how to do, (if her heart desires) and do better.

call it womb envy, ovary envy, man as illogical, man as "HIS"terical,
man as anti-intuitive and either too afraid or too testosterone filled
to evolve. women will either lead them (many of them) kicking and
screaming into the ancient future...or use them for compost on the
flowers we will feed growing through the cracks of the concrete corset
they have covered our mother the earth with
....we will breathe again.
our mom and her daughters and hopefully some men who allow wisdom to
fill that currently somewhat empty cavity between their ears.
PATRICIA

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Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:23:01 -0700
From: morte@interlog.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.







May I have this dance?

We are born out of revulsion. Bourne out of compulsion. A minor
electrical discharge in a second-rate brain releasing a sickly stream of
friendless stupidity. Base and banal as the hunger which it serves.
Based upon replication. Forged across an anvil of unnatural selection.
This pathetic appetite. This gnawing belly of pretense and self-deceit
does no more than fuel an already accursed engine of malignancy.
Reeling with disgust we evacuate our viral weakness into the puerile
promise of a deceased womb. Prison of hope and destroyer of virility.
Breeder of infirmity and church of contempt. Oh, disfigured creature who
would mate with corpses! Destiny is nothing. Thoughts mere cancer.
Fool! You who twitch sad spasm, squirting uselessness to affirm your own
existence, spewing mediocrity and deaths to come. You beget the enemy.
The abject fear of your former self. How laughable this pompous drive to
impregnate time and transient flesh with the spave of your ego. Less
primal than the lust of swine rutting in filth, you infect all species
with your crippling sense of permanence. Expect no respect from the
plague of hate we shall unleash upon thee. Your measly inconvenience will
be crushed and split. There is no dignity in your craving. No Honour to
be had in your ugly coupling. All that comes is carrion; weeping, dying,
consumed and distended passion. A malignant intent made flesh. Tricked by
embryonic kitsch. You will retch fourth maggots of love into the corpse
of your manhood as you perish, ugly pathogen of your species. Hear this,
worthless cripple! It is all over! Time is ending in your last drab
impotence. Your sperm a river of killing. Your vapid hunger a morbid
fulfilling. All is in vain. No hope. Just scattered seed and a target of
submission. Inside those walls of slime and mothly decay only deaths.
Within your orbs of lifelessness only reflex illusion. This sickness is
everywhere. The arrogance complete. For "God" so hated the world that he
despised his people. Making them in their own image. Cursed forever to
consume their destiny and greatness, copulating in offal like the gross
abomination that they are. A sorry excuse for the loss of immortality.
Vomit fourth your kind as you please! Foul bent cripple! Nobility is
lost to you. You reproduce only a malignancy. loathsome tumour of
carrion! Soon, so soon, we shall slice through the rotten tissue you
inhabit and cauterize your source in a sea of BLOOD.

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Subject: Re: genesis consequences
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 09:57:38 +0100
From: fiona and robert forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Thankyou coyote for your welcome.

Seeing how we got on with a first post has been quite educational. Using
the internet is a big learning curve for us. We are both (semi??)
academic folk with Robert frustratingly not functioning in that
context.

Very interested in your comments on Genesis which are being kept to mull
over. It is only fifteen years ago Robert was spending money on what was
said to be the definitive Genesis commentary by Von Rad which of course
has not a word on this.


I have made the best of its contradictions, and take it as
a giant practical joke on the part of Woman (Eve - 'Ava) and
her Serpent friend (Wisdom/Sophia, Self-Awareness, Goddess) as
they savor the Bad News to the now property-obsessed Adam:
"No more hunting trips with the boys for you, Sparky- now you
have to go out and get a =job=. Toast thou art, and to toast thou
thou shalt return." The Serpent never deserted Eve (or any of us).

We want to play with the above a lot...........


I'll send you some 'She Who is' posts and cites privately if
you wish. The folks here already know I'm a Space Catholic of the
Anglican mystic stripe and deserve to be spared the details. ;P
But it seems we're here for about the same reasons.

Yes please do so and we probably are.

Anglican mysticism: We are keen on Centuries by Thomas Traherne first
written c1670 and in editions by Faith Press 1960-75, the good lady
Julian of Norwich, John Donne (wonderfully quoted by Helen Henley's
Enter with Trumpets from Shiny Books).

Donne and Julian are perhaps quite well known. Traherne is vastly
underrated and we are sure many members of the group could enjoy him,
equally Helen Henley's volume written by a Jewess is a most remarkable
celebration of kinky life as its most deviant and kind.

We don't doubt there is a lot more we could say but we are about to go
on holiday and we have a rare visitation to the house from freelance
paymasters later today so for now

take care and goodbye

fiona and robert forsythe

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Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:40:01 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Coyote:
In other words, the only purpose of men is to be childish reproductive
machines until such time as women will enjoy making love to a test tube?
Peter

Sorceress wrote:

If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...

Jeez- if anyone believes this I have some good desert land
to show them, plenty of water, cool breezes,,, ;P

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?

Yes.

Peter, if you stick around here long enough you'll find that
women do a much better job than other men of affirming men as
=human beings= and of setting us free from the burden of gender.
They return to us our childhood -if we let them- which is to say
we get our playful, creative, spontaneous selves back and let them
worry about womanly issues like power and sex. :]
--

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Subject: Re: another
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:56:25 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

This war of figures reminds me of the 6-foot-tall statistician who drowned
in a lake that had an average depth of 3 feet.
Peter


According to the National Education Association, in 1954, when single
parent households made up less than 10 % of families, only 47% of those
students who entered high school..graduated or completed high school.

In 1996 when single parent households are nearly more than 40% of
families, 89% of students who enter high school..graduate or complete
high school.....

hmmm...someones doing something better.
Patricia....in statsville now

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mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:42:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Peter asked:

In other words, the only purpose of men is to be childish reproductive
machines until such time as women will enjoy making love to a test tube?

Who said anything about reproductive roles?

No: I was talking about child=like= (not child-ish) creative qualities:
wonder, discovery, taking things apart and putting them together in a new
way.

I had in mind child-like men like Einstein and Albert Schweitzer and the
Buddha and St Francis and Van Gogh. I doubt if they were overly
preoccupied with their reproductive roles or with wielding power.

But I'll bet all of them were fulfilled on both counts, precisely because
they chose to abdicate that baggage in favor of a creative life.

I hope this helps- I remember being in some pain about these issues just
a week or so back.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

morte began

May I have this dance?

and wrote. and wrote.
and ended with

Vomit fourth your kind as you please!

No, no! Vomit fifth! Sixth, I say!

Switch to Decaf? Check the Lithium?

mythic737@alt.email.net

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


Brings to mind the vain babblings of the sixties when various compounds
caused psydo mistical rantings to spring forth from chemically saturated
braincells. Do the words jaded, cynical, gloomy and depressing come to
mind? In the words of the immortal coyote "lighten up"! what does
dancing, lightheartedness and joy have to do with this? Dancin in the
dark? "so loved the world that he gave everlasting life not doom and
gloom and death. h of d don't blame me , he brought it up.

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #135
************************************************



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:
Let's all bow out of this one gracefully (was Re: Intelligence)
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Let's all bow out of this one (was Re: Intelligence)
Welcome (Re: Genesis: 2 versions)
Re: Genesis , Laura femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #131
Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Re: Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
info on Crone please

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 21:05:17 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Let's all bow out of this one gracefully (was Re: Intelligence)
Message-ID: <31DB42FD.7A49@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia--

As much as I wanted to shorten this email by snipping portions, I found
I could not. I agree with tw in that the more you use it, the more you
take away a words power (as you said about Lenny Bruce who also used
f***, sh**, etc.). I chose to either not use the words or to use an
abbreviated form of them because I don't like to use those words nor the
racial words that people seem to say frequently... tw/Patricia this is
not a flame, just MHO.

timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:
and some people are born with more of it
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like niggers and women).

Patricia wrote--

Now excuse me..I was not going to reply to this but I must. In the
above TW says he was not using it as a derogatory term but to illustrate
his point....so in this example then he is using the word women to mean
a derogatory term..they are both enclosed in the same paranthesis. why
didn't he use "n" and "b"s if his point was hyperbole? I find it
derogatory...this has nothing to do with political correctness.

This bothers me very much that tw used womeh as if it were a racial slur.
It doesn't have to do with correctness, political or otherwise. I do
understand that he was saying that that White Anglo-Saxon males seem to
think they are more important, etc.

Someone said that African Americans call themselves this when they hang
out together...that is there privilege and among themselves the
distribution of power is somewhat more equal. When the term comes out
of a white man's mouth..the oppressor, where there is an unequal
distribution of power...whitey has it all...then I find it offensive.
If he had said "n"'s and "b"'s i would have gotten the point.

I was born in Wisconsin...I'm 3/4 Irish and 1/4 German with a German
maiden name that was constantly ragged on because it sounded Polish.
At the time I was growing up, Polish jokes were the "norm." It hurt so
much to hear those jokes, that eventually, I told those jokes to keep
from being the one tormented by them. However, it didn't make me feel
any better, except now I was part of the same problem... I eventuall
quit using any kind of joke that degrades any kind of person regardless
of their mentality, disability, race, religion, sexuality or looks
because I knew how it felt to be in their shoes. I don't even tell a
bdsm joke because of how I feel when I hear someone tell those jokes.

I did read this post and the follow ups..every word. I am not a stupid
(woman). I thought we were about making a kinder gentler place for one
another here. If the word makes me uneasy..and I am not alone ..must we
continue to say it over and over again to prove how "liberal" we are.
I am Native American..and if anyone uses the word injun to describe me,
or squaw, they will seriously make me very angry and hurt.

None of us are stupid, or we wouldn't subscribe to this mailing list,
but sometimes people get carried away proving whatever it is they are
out there to prove.

the word is a derogatory term and there is no reason to use it. If you
must, you must...but be clear, for me, at least, it brings tears to my
eyes...as much as if you called a jewish person a kyke .. I remember the
holocaust...and the way we kidnapped and killed the African American
here in my country..is a matter of shame I will not compound by using
degrading and insulting language....it has nothing to do with "political
correctness...it has to do with grace..and treating all people with
dignity....

I agree with Patricia that let's not use those words here... It's a matter
of not only dignity, grace and political correctness, but of pride and
respect for how some of us believe. Thanks...now I'm off my soapbox again.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 00:16:02 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

FEonly unique gift to life: women have been told this for ages. Gee, how
FEdoes it feel?
FE
FE
FEIt doesn't feel very nice. I certainly don't feel this way, and neither do
FEmore men than you realize.
FEPeter

I hate setting myself up as the paradigm for abused women,
HOWEVER: During my hotly contested and bitterly fought
divorce, my husband repeatedly took me to court to appeal
the judge's decisions regarding the division of marital
property. His contention was that I did not deserve the NY
state mandated 50% of his pension (NYPD HOTSHOT) on the
grounds that it was HIS pension, that HE worked for it,
and that my only contribution to our marriage was that I
bore him three children.

Is that fucking ironic or not? Or maybe just fucking
STOOPID? Can we even *say* "fuck" here?
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 21:05:06 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Let's all bow out of this one (was Re: Intelligence)
Message-ID: <31DB42F2.6659@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia--

As much as I wanted to shorten this email by snipping portions, I found
I could not. I agree with tw in that the more you use it, the more you
take away a words power (as you said about Lenny Bruce who also used
f***, sh**, etc.). I chose to either not use the words or to use an
abbreviated form of them because I don't like to use those words nor the
racial words that people seem to say frequently... tw/Patricia this is
not a flame, just MHO.

timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:
and some people are born with more of it
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like niggers and women).

Patricia wrote--

Now excuse me..I was not going to reply to this but I must. In the
above TW says he was not using it as a derogatory term but to illustrate
his point....so in this example then he is using the word women to mean
a derogatory term..they are both enclosed in the same paranthesis. why
didn't he use "n" and "b"s if his point was hyperbole? I find it
derogatory...this has nothing to do with political correctness.

This bothers me very much that tw used womeh as if it were a racial slur.
It doesn't have to do with correctness, political or otherwise. I do
understand that he was saying that that White Anglo-Saxon males seem to
think they are more important, etc.

Someone said that African Americans call themselves this when they hang
out together...that is there privilege and among themselves the
distribution of power is somewhat more equal. When the term comes out
of a white man's mouth..the oppressor, where there is an unequal
distribution of power...whitey has it all...then I find it offensive.
If he had said "n"'s and "b"'s i would have gotten the point.

I was born in Wisconsin...I'm 3/4 Irish and 1/4 German with a German
maiden name that was constantly ragged on because it sounded Polish.
At the time I was growing up, Polish jokes were the "norm." It hurt so
much to hear those jokes, that eventually, I told those jokes to keep
from being the one tormented by them. However, it didn't make me feel
any better, except now I was part of the same problem... I eventuall
quit using any kind of joke that degrades any kind of person regardless
of their mentality, disability, race, religion, sexuality or looks
because I knew how it felt to be in their shoes. I don't even tell a
bdsm joke because of how I feel when I hear someone tell those jokes.

I did read this post and the follow ups..every word. I am not a stupid
(woman). I thought we were about making a kinder gentler place for one
another here. If the word makes me uneasy..and I am not alone ..must we
continue to say it over and over again to prove how "liberal" we are.
I am Native American..and if anyone uses the word injun to describe me,
or squaw, they will seriously make me very angry and hurt.

None of us are stupid, or we wouldn't subscribe to this mailing list,
but sometimes people get carried away proving whatever it is they are
out there to prove.

the word is a derogatory term and there is no reason to use it. If you
must, you must...but be clear, for me, at least, it brings tears to my
eyes...as much as if you called a jewish person a kyke .. I remember the
holocaust...and the way we kidnapped and killed the African American
here in my country..is a matter of shame I will not compound by using
degrading and insulting language....it has nothing to do with "political
correctness...it has to do with grace..and treating all people with
dignity....

I agree with Patricia that let's not use those words here... It's a matter
of not only dignity, grace and political correctness, but of pride and
respect for how some of us believe. Thanks...now I'm off my soapbox again.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 21:57:48 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Welcome (Re: Genesis: 2 versions)
Message-Id: <199607040457.VAA28826@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

BUT after the last seven years of marriage when from day one Robert
has been a househusband/freelance portfolio careerer and Fiona has had
a rewarding career at work, much has had to be learnt.

Welcome to the list, Fiona and Robert :) :::friendly wave:::
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:12:39 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: Laura Goodwin
CC: Laura Goodwin
Subject: Re: Genesis , Laura femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #131
Message-ID: <31DA2B77.37B5@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just a note to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the bible as an
unreliable source filled with contradictions. After studying the dead sea scrolls
extensively for twenty years I can assure you that the old testament we have today is so
much like the original ancient writings its awe inspiring. The essenes lived within
Christ's era and the scriptures you have today are nearly identical to the book of
isaiah, and portions of every other book but the book of Esther. The scriptures have
provided me with a road map that has kept me on the path to enlightenment for over
twenty-seven years, and God has spoken to me through a careful, thoughtful, prayerful
study of the words these holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy she
spirit. God doesn't just speak through it alone, but it certainly is one of the
greatest collections of spiritual writings, and has certainly changed thousands of lives
for the better, one of which is mine.
God did create sex and is very happy per see us enjoy it.
After all he invented it. Not bad God! Song of Solomon contains many references to
oral sex as well as passages denoting a passionate, healthy enjoyment of sexual
relationships.
God did make us different. Why are women smaller physically, weaker in the upper
body? Does she have to be identical in all ways to be equal? Does equality mean the
same? Are we saying she cant be equal because she was created second and smaller?
Maybe Adam was the rough draft and Eve was the final copy, Gods crowning act of
creation? Maybe he saved the best for last! I think he did!
There is a lot of anger around, understandable, but the defense mechanisms that
protected us when we were young can keep us from growing when we get older. Likewise,
we have to see each other through eyes that search for the deeper meaning beyond anger
and revenge. You are the crown of creation and it is a privilege to use those broad
shoulders to serve you. Thats why he gave them to us!

Always trying to walk toward the light,
Spirit Wind and Debora



Laura, please email me your church adress, lost it in a computor meltdown, thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 23:16:01 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Message-Id: <199607040616.XAA25901@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

coyote sings wrote:

Good myth and good science can be totally
reconciled, and are in fact two ways of dealing with the same
phenomena.

The operative word here is "good". Science can be seen as an exacting
discipline which can predictably yield results which are comparable to
other disciplines. I had a religious experience when I read *The Tao
of Physics*, because of the beautiful way it showed me how science has
caught up with and affirmed the most powerful and subtle insights of
the many religion's mystics (including my own).

In favor of Christian mysticism I will say that the teachings of Jesus
as presented in the New Testament are very much in line with mainstream
metaphysics. He found his own way to the top of the same mountain as
other great spiritual leaders, apparently. From that vantage point
"reality" seems very fluid and subject to the influence of human will.
The failsafe is built in, fortunately, since those who have attained
that divine perspective and power are usually humbled by the climb, and
unlikely to abuse their awareness.

Like the time Jesus was tempted in the desert by the demon who said, in
effect, "Now that you know you *are* God, you can have all the wealth
and power you can imagine." Jesus's answer was not unique, but typical
of those who have ascended to the heights of spiritual mastery. To the
demon he said, in essence, "Gidouttahere, you knucklehead!"

If you have a pebble in your eye, it's a disaster. When you hold a
pebble in front of your eye, it seems huge and impenetrable. If you
drop it to the ground with a bunch of other pebbles, it is much less
impressive. :) If you suffer from poverty, money is a big problem.
When you pursue money and power, they loom large in your life. When
you see all life's problems and passions from some mental distance,
they shrink in importance. That's just the way it is. You don't have
to solve a problem to be free of it's power, you can just see it
differently...that's one of the joys of spiritual discipline: you get
relief from many of humanity's woes (without necessarily making them go
away).

Some advanced metaphysicians like to stay in that state of grace, and
avoid grappling with other people's problems. Some endeavor to bring
the fire of the Gods back to humankind somehow. Some let their
experience inspire them to confront ignorance, pain, and evil head on,
and they draw continuing courage from their vision.

Certainly Christanity has fostered some towering souls, but so has
Tantrism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Shintoism, Islam, Wiccan and
other nature religions. Even the Atheists have produced some moral
giants. I guess it's not _how you get there_, but *that you do*. What
happens next is wide open. Some come down the mountain by the same
path they went up, some don't, y'know? It's *all* downhill from there,
eh, what? ;)

I have come to believe that in every tribe there is a small number in
every generation that feel moved to aspire to spiritual and moral
excellence, and the really stubborn ones will succeed whether their
society helps or hinders them. I just wish a way could be found to
make it easier for *our* tribe. That's something I have been working
on.


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 02:28:05 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Message-ID: <31DB8EA5.16A3@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

How about just a simple ceremony where you must stand up and admit..."I
AM GOD." that way you can enjoy the glory and the eternal possibilities
and take responsibility for everything...because if you are GOD..and I
AM..that's the ying and the yang of it.
PATRICIA


Laura Goodwin wrote:

coyote sings wrote:

Good myth and good science can be totally
reconciled, and are in fact two ways of dealing with the same
phenomena.

The operative word here is "good". Science can be seen as an exacting
discipline which can predictably yield results which are comparable to
other disciplines. I had a religious experience when I read *The Tao
of Physics*, because of the beautiful way it showed me how science has
caught up with and affirmed the most powerful and subtle insights of
the many religion's mystics (including my own).

In favor of Christian mysticism I will say that the teachings of Jesus
as presented in the New Testament are very much in line with mainstream
metaphysics. He found his own way to the top of the same mountain as
other great spiritual leaders, apparently. From that vantage point
"reality" seems very fluid and subject to the influence of human will.
The failsafe is built in, fortunately, since those who have attained
that divine perspective and power are usually humbled by the climb, and
unlikely to abuse their awareness.

Like the time Jesus was tempted in the desert by the demon who said, in
effect, "Now that you know you *are* God, you can have all the wealth
and power you can imagine." Jesus's answer was not unique, but typical
of those who have ascended to the heights of spiritual mastery. To the
demon he said, in essence, "Gidouttahere, you knucklehead!"

If you have a pebble in your eye, it's a disaster. When you hold a
pebble in front of your eye, it seems huge and impenetrable. If you
drop it to the ground with a bunch of other pebbles, it is much less
impressive. :) If you suffer from poverty, money is a big problem.
When you pursue money and power, they loom large in your life. When
you see all life's problems and passions from some mental distance,
they shrink in importance. That's just the way it is. You don't have
to solve a problem to be free of it's power, you can just see it
differently...that's one of the joys of spiritual discipline: you get
relief from many of humanity's woes (without necessarily making them go
away).

Some advanced metaphysicians like to stay in that state of grace, and
avoid grappling with other people's problems. Some endeavor to bring
the fire of the Gods back to humankind somehow. Some let their
experience inspire them to confront ignorance, pain, and evil head on,
and they draw continuing courage from their vision.

Certainly Christanity has fostered some towering souls, but so has
Tantrism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Shintoism, Islam, Wiccan and
other nature religions. Even the Atheists have produced some moral
giants. I guess it's not _how you get there_, but *that you do*. What
happens next is wide open. Some come down the mountain by the same
path they went up, some don't, y'know? It's *all* downhill from there,
eh, what? ;)

I have come to believe that in every tribe there is a small number in
every generation that feel moved to aspire to spiritual and moral
excellence, and the really stubborn ones will succeed whether their
society helps or hinders them. I just wish a way could be found to
make it easier for *our* tribe. That's something I have been working
on.

--
Laura Goodwin

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 23:39:50 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31DB6736.3403@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all--

Having worked for a top 10 University medical center, this is true.
Most of the studies done in the last 100 years have used mainly men
as their test subjects: that includes studies on heart disease,
alcoholism, drug testing, etc. It has only been the last 20 years
or so that they have been doing studies directed towards women and
men... All you need to confirm this is to go to the Journal of
American Medical Association (JAMA) and scope out that one publication
for proof of this. There are many other publications that will
confirm this as well... As a matter of fact, in the last 5 years,
there has been a major push for universities to put forth studies
with women as their major test subjects: the NSF and CDC among
other science foundations and research organizations even gave
extra funds for those studies to ensure that more women's studies
would actually happen. (NSF=National Science Foundation and CDC=
Center for Disease Control). They made it worth their while
financially because they knew that if it meant more money, they would
do studies involving women's health issues... You should hear
the scientists complain about it though... What a bunch of *_____
______* (fill in the blank)!

I worked for this medical center for almost 10 years. It was only
10 years ago that they started really studying women's urinary
problems...prior to that, it was always the prostate and the prostate
is still more important than urinary problems in women.

Jet

Noble wrote:

Bernd wanted to know:

Where does this nonsense come from????
Bernd

It comes from the irrational male mind trying to use "science" to prove
his superiorty...since women were so discriminated against in the
sciences they thought they were safe coming up with these statistical
tools.....HOWEVER...we know from our intuition what is...and what isn't
sensible....but since the rooster was ruling the roost with this
game..we learned it..and now we can use their science to prove our
intuition was always right....there is nothing that man can do that
woman cannot learn how to do, (if her heart desires) and do better.

call it womb envy, ovary envy, man as illogical, man as "HIS"terical,
man as anti-intuitive and either too afraid or too testosterone filled
to evolve. women will either lead them (many of them) kicking and
screaming into the ancient future...or use them for compost on the
flowers we will feed growing through the cracks of the concrete corset
they have covered our mother the earth with
....we will breathe again.
our mom and her daughters and hopefully some men who allow wisdom to
fill that currently somewhat empty cavity between their ears.
PATRICIA

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 00:19:36 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-ID: <31DB7088.42B8@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Christine and David--

For when I'm in that mood I ought to limit myself to the other
lists I'm subscribed too. (The Pearl) and (SubMiss).
Unfortunately they are not strictly Fem-Dom. AT LEAST half their
members swing the other way.

I would like to subscribe to The Pearl and SubMiss mailing lists...
How do I get in touch with them?

Thanks in advance!

Jet

PS. I have to postpone ordering anything at the moment...my big
job fell through...He lost one of his biggest clients and now
needs to conserve his money for his business and his payroll for
his 10 employees until he can replace what he lost...so the home
addition he was going to have me do has gone kaput... I am very
disappointed for many reasons.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 00:24:23 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: info on Crone please
Message-ID: <31DB71A7.149F@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings--

How can I subscribe to Crone? Could you get met the mailing address
to subscribe? I am not menapausal yet, but I'm 42, and my mom went
menapausal at 36...

Thanks in advance for your help and enjoy your posts as always!

Jet



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:
Re: Intelligence
Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Self Worship
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: genesis consequences
Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Re: now you've done it.
Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Cui Bono?
Real cool judge
Re: now you've done it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 02:41:55 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199607040941.CAA25924@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yoiks! This is what I get for going away for a few days--92 posts!
I've got something to say about several, but will respond to separate
threads separately.

I wrote:

Just wondering... Did the study actually determine that women's intelligence
is an average of the two parents? It was my understanding that the second X
chromosome in women often acts as a safety backup. Through a process science
has no explanation for, women with a problem on one X usually use the
information from the other. (This is fortunate for me, since I inherited a
serious X-linked disease from my father. My mother's X was fine, so I'm
okay.) This makes me think that it's possible that women only use data from
one X for other things as well.


Timberwolf replied:

This is a strange thread. The concept of intelligence here seems to be the
same
as that in _The Bell Curve_: Intelligence is one single kind of stuff,
which you
have more or less off (like money); you can measure it in a consistent way and
quantify it by one single number; and some people are born with more of it
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like niggers and women).
Admit it---these are the standard categories. You will not change a thing by
just standing the thing on its head saying it is just the other way around,
women
are born with more of it ... it is the same kind of rot. Racism, and
sexism, and
false science.

I don't think anyone WAS saying that women are genetically endowed with more
intelligence. What SEEMED to be indicated was that "intelligence" is
strongly affected by a gene or genes on the X chromosome. I haven't seen the
study, and until I do I have no idea how good the methodology was. If
they're right, I think it just indicates that men owe a lot of their
intelligence to their mothers.


First, it is genetic nonsense. When will people get into their thick heads that
one-gene, one-character inheritance is utterly rare? When those who profit
by ignorance and misinformation cease to misinform us, I guess. Apart from the
fact that "characters" are usually arbitrary and subjective categories,
nearly all
of them are determined by the interplay of several genes in very different
loci.
On different chromosomes, even. Very nearly the only characters inherited
through one single gene are simple genetic disorders. Simple things, simple
effects. And simple effects are usually bad effects. Three embryos of four are
spontaneously aborted because of these simple errors (go tell that to the
Pope).

Well, I'm not arguing much with this. I'm all in favor of good science, and
I know there's plenty of the other kind out there. Like I said, I'd like to
see the study. Just out of curiosity, who exactly do you think is profiting
from this "misinformation?"

I'm also wondering if you have actually read the study. What if the X
chromosome DOES have a major effect on intelligence? Is this likely to have
make any difference beyond a possible improvement in the regard men have for
intelligent women?



Second, intelligence---whatever it is (see below) is determined as much, or
more,
by cultural, i.e. learned factors as by genetic inheritance. There is no
"IQ test"
that is independent of culture. An intellectually stimulating environment in
childhood, good education in youth, intellectually challenging tasks in
adult life
---these are clearly more important to intellectual performance than biological
inheritance is. Do you know that the average "IQ test" result in the U.S.
has risen
by ten points since the 1940's? If intelligence was really detemined
biologically,
the ONLY way of achieving this would be by means of a massive eugenics
programme of the most brutal kind. But the cause is clearly environmental.
Young people get more occasion to exercise their brains than formerly.


I mostly agree. IQ testing has an obvious cultural bias. I don't know what
the criteria for "intelligence" was in the study. It may or may not have
been standard IQ. Environment definitely plays a major factor in everyone's
development. We have a "genotype"--our genetic inheritence, and a
"phenotype"--what we actually end up with. The phenotype is determined by
environmental effects, ie. lead paint on your bedroom walls, your mom having
german measles while carrying you, growing up on more nutritious food than
the kid down the street, etc...


I reiterate my firm belief that truth, and only truth, can liberate. Myths and
lies can never set people free. The reason is that the myths and the lies are
usually the same, regardless who are using them. They are the same malignant
rot, only the supposed beneficiaries are different. For instance, racism is
racism
and sexism is sexism, no matter the color or sex of those on top.

How come that all these lying oversimplifications are so popular? Why do we
persist in repeating them whenever they are fed to us, and whatever their
burden? Reality is complicated. Understanding it, and describing it, takes
work,
hard and honest intellectual work. There seems to be nothing that man fears
more. It also takes courage, and that too is a scarce commodity. How much
simpler just to bounce back the silly slogans that our masters and manipulators
are throwing at us!
TWolf

I agree, racism and sexism are no more attractive when inverted. On the
other hand, is an oversimplification a "lie?" Hard to say....I think that
information, even simple information, can be a key to finding out more about
what's actually going on. I find it interesting that you seem to assume
X-linked intelligence is a lie...

Sigh! As Rodney King once said, "Can't we all just get along?"

--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 02:42:40 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-Id: <199607040942.CAA25949@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura Goodwin wrote (in part):

IMHO, since the Bible contradicts itself so clearly in the first
chapter, I find it impossible to take Biblical scripture as a whole to
be the one seamless word/opinion/view of "God", AKA the author of the
universe. The universe is one seamless and wonderfully ordered
creation, whereas the Bible is a self-contradictory collection of
garbled history, fables, and anti-Goddess propaganda. I think if "God"
troubled to write only one book, it would be a real humdinger, not this
superstitious and unliterary nonsense. I personally feel that the
Bible is important for historical reasons only, and shudder to think of
anyone seriously trying to make sense of it enough to use it as a
blueprint for living.


I second your opinion! It's been my (unhappy) experience that the Bible,
especially the OT, is a sort of "sticky-trap" for unstable minds. The dark
side of Christianity is very dark indeed, and the inherent contradictions
can seriously screw with people who try to accept it ALL as the word of God.
On the other hand, I have friends who call themselves Christian who seem to
have focused on the more positive ideas found in Jesus' teachings. Unlike
fundamentalists, these Christians have no problem being friends with a
bi-sexual Witch! As you so rightly said:

<(BTW, I feel a bit forced to add that I have nothing against my





--Lady Phoenix


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 11:16:48 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Self Worship
Message-ID: <31DAB910.3E17@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Not comfortable with it. Maybe with small g. I have an intimate acquaintance with
myself and all my many faults, so, I won't be worshiping ME anytime soon, nor would I
suggest you do it! I certainly couldn't replace the awesome creator of the universe, by
whatever name you ascribe to the one who made it all begin.

I can certainly agree that many use religion as a cop-out to avoid taking individual
responsibility. Independence and self-reliance are very good characteristics, however
there are things bigger than ourselves and our own limited knowledge. Faith can take
knowledge by the hand and lead it to a level of consciousness to which it cannot go by
itself. Lots of things you folks write make me go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

"I've been thinkin' 'bout you"!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:41:34 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607041636.QAA17660@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 3 Jul 96 at 10:29, sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote....

Knowing what we do of human anatomy, we realize that
when a man becomes erect, that migratory tissue
(brain) gets sucked down into the genitalia, causing
the very "empty cavity" that Patricia alludes to!
ERGO: The bigger the penis (and the erection) the
bigger the cavity.

Now i finally know why it is i feel such a complete sense of
powerlessness and near idiocy when extremely aroused. This
explains a lot.

Thank you,
David Stevenson. ;-)

Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:48:08 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

FE Knowing what we do of human anatomy, we realize that
FE when a man becomes erect, that migratory tissue
FE (brain) gets sucked down into the genitalia, causing
FE the very "empty cavity" that Patricia alludes to!
FE ERGO: The bigger the penis (and the erection) the
FE bigger the cavity.
FE
FENow i finally know why it is i feel such a complete sense of
FEpowerlessness and near idiocy when extremely aroused. This
FEexplains a lot.

FEThank you,
Hahahaha! you are TOO cool!
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:03:00 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607041703.KAA00489@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Peter, "some men are good for something." There ARE decent intelligent
caring men out here, although I'm sorry to say that they seem to be in the
minority. I do know that I have met men who were remarkable and wonderful
people. In a way, men who transcend macho are similar to strong and
successful women: they rise above society's expected roles to become
something better.

--Lady Phoenix


I am certain this posting will cause a lot of controversy. And I certainly
hope no one -- especially Laura and Patricia -- take it the wrong way. And
I apologize now if I misread their postings.

But it really pains me to read responses like this, especially as someone
who has the deepest of respect for everything on earth: plants, animals,
geological features, the environment ... you name it.

But certainly men must be good for something. Or at least some men are good
for something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
reproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
that.
Do you really believe that?

I know Laura has written often about her husband and what a fine person he
is. Aren't there other men out there like him?

Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate, understanding,
don't beat their wives, don't molest their children, and try to live a
decent life as best they can?

Aren't there men who truly respect and cherish women (and I'm not talking
in a dom-sub relationship)?

Aren't men good for something else than reproduction?

I really can't believe that people would have thoughts like this about the
opposite sex.

I could go on, but I am really upset.

I'm sure (or at least I hope) that I have misread this and I'm begging for
a clarification. And I'm sure I will have to further clarify what I have
just written after I give it more thought.

And please be gentle with me, I most certainly don't mean to insult your
intelligence with this response.
Thank you
Peter



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:02:33 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: genesis consequences
Message-Id: <199607041702.KAA00480@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Robert and Fiona Forsythe wrote (in part):

Thankyou Laura for replying to this post, you wrote:

Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...a revolution of thought
took place, with men ultimately asserting their claim to be thought the
primary parent.
In all sincerity I would greatly appreciate some evidence for this. In
many respects I am ignorant about recent academic work in this sphere.
All sorts of things have brought me here, not least some half references
in an Open University course I teach (but they were not backed up by
evidence).


I seem to have lost contact with the academia that could inform (amongst
the many other things that have to be done to earn bread), but my
interest in the challenge of Genesis is sincere (quite of my own bat I
have written another MSS about it after the MA one). Now wanting to try
to shape further my thoughts on Genesis 3 any pointers to material that
would evidence this "critical moment" of awareness of impregnation would
be carefully pondered over.



It's my understanding that many female-centric societies were well aware of
paternity. (Such as the ancient Anatolians, the Hopi, etc. Any culture that
breeds animals will soon catch on!) In a gynocentric culture the
mother-child relationship is the primary one. The next most important
relationship tends to be that of the uncle. Fathers are recognized, but the
child's primary male role-model is the mother's brother. This is why Celts
used to pass the throne from the King to the King's nephew. They figured
that the King and his sister shared the royal blood of their mother,
therefore the sister's son was guaranteed to be of the same blood-line. In a
way uncle-hood makes a lot more sense. Romantic relationships tend to come
and go, but the brother-sister bond is usually more enduring.

The rise of patriarchy certainly incorporated the knowledge of paternity
(and the desire to control it) but I believe that a lot more was going on.

I would strongly recommend _When God Was A Woman_ by Merlin Stone to anyone
interested in the rise of patriarchy, the evolution of Christianity, and the
supression of Goddess worship. (This book was apparently published in the UK
as _The Paradise Papers_.) Stone goes into great length about the various
transformations the Bible underwent as the Hebrew culture fought for
supremacy with its Goddess-worshipping neighbors. Also of great value is
_The Chalice and the Blade_ by Riane Eisler. (This book made me think more
positively about Christ's message...no small task!) Eisler's book is
especially worth reading because of her optimistic application of Chaos
theory to social evolution.

--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:12:05 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-Id: <199607041712.KAA00725@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Laura Goodwin wrote (in part):

IMHO, since the Bible contradicts itself so clearly in the first
chapter, I find it impossible to take Biblical scripture as a whole to
be the one seamless word/opinion/view of "God", AKA the author of the
universe. The universe is one seamless and wonderfully ordered
creation, whereas the Bible is a self-contradictory collection of
garbled history, fables, and anti-Goddess propaganda. I think if "God"
troubled to write only one book, it would be a real humdinger, not this
superstitious and unliterary nonsense. I personally feel that the
Bible is important for historical reasons only, and shudder to think of
anyone seriously trying to make sense of it enough to use it as a
blueprint for living.


I second your opinion! It's been my (unhappy) experience that the Bible,
especially the OT, is a sort of "sticky-trap" for unstable minds. The dark
side of Christianity is very dark indeed, and the inherent contradictions
can seriously screw with people who try to accept it ALL as the word of God.
On the other hand, I have friends who call themselves Christian who seem to
have focused on the more positive ideas found in Jesus' teachings. Unlike
fundamentalists, these Christians have no problem being friends with a
bi-sexual Witch! As you so rightly said:

<(BTW, I feel a bit forced to add that I have nothing against my





--Lady Phoenix


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:21:27 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: now you've done it.
Message-Id: <199607041821.LAA02222@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thank you, Patricia! Keep up the good work!

May I add that the whole "nuclear family" idea is one source of a lot of our
problems. In most cultures, families have an extended network of support.

--Lady Phoenix


I am on the web hunting down statistics....but before I give you the
first one I would like to add. the major reason for all the
difficulties mentioned..by roger?..even if his figures were way off..is
economics and not single parent households..when men leave and don't pay
child suppor they leave their families poor....
his stats came up with information..inaccurate...but information based
on the wrong causal precedent. it is not single moms who make these
problems..it is economics and dad leaving and not paying his share..

now my first stat...from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 95% of
all serial killers were raised in two parent families....

now I go look for more..
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Genesis: 2 versions
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Phoenix wrote:



I second your opinion! It's been my (unhappy) experience that the Bible,
especially the OT, is a sort of "sticky-trap" for unstable minds. The dark
side of Christianity is very dark indeed, and the inherent contradictions
can seriously screw with people who try to accept it ALL as the word of God.

Folks who have studied the Bible in far greater depths than myself
(coyote sings comes immediately to mind) could do a better job of
responding to this post. I'm going to give it a shot, though, and anyone
with corrections or additions is welcome to offer them.
It should be remembered that the Bible was written during the
Patriarchal Age, but even then many exemplary women were portrayed. An
even bigger problem arose from the many translations it went through
(Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Old English) before it was rendered in
modern language. Guess how many of the translators were women? Entire
Books (sometimes gathered into a work called The Apocrypha) were dropped
completely and others were heavily "edited" to fit the norms and desires
of the prevailing power structures of the times. Is there any wonder
that contradictions exist or that anti-woman bias is so prominent?

On the other hand, I have friends who call themselves Christian who seem to
have focused on the more positive ideas found in Jesus' teachings. Unlike
fundamentalists, these Christians have no problem being friends with a
bi-sexual Witch! As you so rightly said.

Although I was raised as a Christian I became an Atheist due to
the fact that the church-goers where I grew up were the most bigoted,
hypocritical and ignorant people I knew. It was not until I came to be
involved in the anti-Southeast Asian war movement in the mid-1960s that I
met Christians whom I could admire and respect, and their example led me
to re-study the Bible. Although the flaws were still apparent, I gleaned
much knowledge and ethical sense from these writings.
Technically I am still an Atheist, but one of the most valuable
things this newslist has taught me is the distinction between religion
and spirituality. Although I refuse to be commanded by a "God" and his
self-appointed spokesmen I am beginning to understand that there are
forces "out there" of which I am only dimly aware.
{Barry whines a bit here :-)} Why is there so much to learn and
so little time in which to do it? On the positive side, thank you all
for contributing so much to my understanding.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:11:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Cui Bono?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

There have been several postings recently concerning the validity
of statistics and "facts" presented by various sources. In America
at least the information providers are overwhelmingly controlled by the
rich and powerful, making the truth even more difficult to discern.
In politics there is an old saying called "Follow the Money"; if
you can determine where a politician's campaign contributions are coming
from you will be able to make a lot more sense of that person's voting
record no matter what nonsense or excuses he/she decides to spew.
Whenever I hear information or statistics in general, my first
reaction is "Cui Bono?" This is Latin for "Who Benefits"? Figure that
one out and you're much more likely to be able to determine the truth
of what you're hearing.

Peace,

Barry


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:17:27 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Real cool judge
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

People here might be interested in the decision of a panel to remove a
judge from the bench in the Canadian province of Quebec.

The judge caused a firestorm of protest last December after he made a
number of sexist comments at the trial of a woman who was convicted of
murdering her husband by slitting his throat with a razor blade.

During sentencing, the judge said that generally women are morally superior
to men but "When they decide to degrade themselves, they sink to depths
which even the vilest of man could not sink."

He went on to tell the court, "At the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp
in Poland, which I once visited horror-stricken, even the Nazis did not
eliminate millions of Jews in a painful and bloody manner. They died in the
gas chamber, without suffering."

The panel in releasing its statement, said: "The judge's statements convey
a sexist stereotype that both idealizes and demeans women. The judge's view
of women is a bias that is deeply rooted in his mind.

"At the inquiry, he clearly gave us the messge that he will not abandon
that view. The concept of 'bias' and 'impartiality' are clearly opposed.
Impartiality is the very essence of judicial office."

The majority also said the judge's comments about the Holocaust showed he
was guilty of "a blatant lack of judgment.

The panel's report also said that the judge:
Teased a female journalist who was wearing a mini-skirt that she could come
and go as she pleased in his court.
Advised a female juror who became visibly upset during the trial that,
"Kleenex is a woman's best friend."
Called the defendant in a conversation with an officer of the court a
lesbian and a "negress,'' a pejorative term used in French to describe
blacks as niggers.

By the way, after 15 hours of deliberation, the woman was found guilty of
second-degree murder and was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of
parole for 10 years.
Peter



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:32:41 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: now you've done it.
Message-Id: <199607042132.OAA27572@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com

May I add that the whole "nuclear family" idea is one source of a lot
of our problems. In most cultures, families have an extended network
of support.

--Lady Phoenix

This is certainly true, and it looks like it's up to women to reweave
the fabric of interdependence. :)
--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:
Re: Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Cui Bono?
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Ms. Patricia
Greetings to Ms. Patricia
I'll be offline temporarily
Re: Intelligence
Guess what? I'm offline early.
POWER
'Thank You, Ma'am,,,' (The actual article)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:08:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Message-Id: <199607050008.RAA08838@netcom4.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3147

Laura Goodwin wrote:

[a wonderful meditation, uplifting and full of clarity]

to which I went: Wow!
and
YeSSS! :D

I had a religious experience when I read *The Tao
of Physics*, because of the beautiful way it showed me how science has
caught up with and affirmed the most powerful and subtle insights of
the many religion's mystics (including my own).

[a 'YeSSS!' item. Check it out.]


The failsafe is built in, fortunately, since those who have attained
that divine perspective and power are usually humbled by the climb, and
unlikely to abuse their awareness. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Almost the acid test. Einstein comes to mind.
(Peter take note: child-like)

That's just the way it is. You don't have
to solve a problem to be free of it's power, you can just see it
differently...that's one of the joys of spiritual discipline: you get
relief from many of humanity's woes (without necessarily making them go
away).

Believe it:

Some of you know I sustained two major hits recently- a
financial one in May and a professional one in June- real
disasters by conventional standards, and 10 years ago I would
have gone into serious Victim mode. But this time around all I
see is opportunity, unburdening and a welcome chance to start
over and do the things that are really important. All things new.

Certainly Christanity has fostered some towering souls, but so has
Tantrism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Shintoism, Islam, Wiccan and
other nature religions. Even the Atheists have produced some moral
giants.

Bertrand Russell (if his abominable philandering can be
overlooked) and Stephen (sp?) J Gould come to mind. Russell
has written two books, _A History Of Western Philosophy_ and
_The Wisdom Of The West_, that are must reads: they embody
the best single summary of our intellectual heritage, the Western
(yes: read Patriarchal) canon, the best of Dead White Male thought.
My students also are urged to read Russell's _Why I am not a
Christian_ to test their own perspective, because Russell was
nothing if not honest (except about his own relationships).

I guess it's not _how you get there_, but *that you do*.

Amen. The Nike slogan. Why my .sig says 'show up.'

I just wish a way could be found to
make it easier for *our* tribe.

But: Knowledge won the hard way is the kind that sticks.

(11 years ago =today= I lost my battle with alcohol and died,
almost, blood everywhere. The proud drunk lost his battle and died.
Somebody newer and a tiny tad wiser emerged from that ruin.
The cost was enormous, but still worth it.)

Eleutheria! Libertad(e)! Svoboda! :D
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:02:56 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607050258.CAA29584@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 4 Jul 96 at 0:19, Jet wrote:


I would like to subscribe to The Pearl and SubMiss mailing
lists... How do I get in touch with them?



"SubMiss"

In both cases they are not fully automated lists so
just send an Email and ask to subscribe.

Warm regards,
David.
.

The only problem with reality is that there is no
'danger music'.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 96 3:02:02 EDT
From: The person your mother warned you about
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:02:28 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Cui Bono?
Message-Id: <199607050702.JAA13919@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Friends,

There have been several postings recently concerning the validity
of statistics and "facts" presented by various sources. In America
at least the information providers are overwhelmingly controlled by the
rich and powerful, making the truth even more difficult to discern.
In politics there is an old saying called "Follow the Money"; if
you can determine where a politician's campaign contributions are coming
from you will be able to make a lot more sense of that person's voting
record no matter what nonsense or excuses he/she decides to spew.
Whenever I hear information or statistics in general, my first
reaction is "Cui Bono?" This is Latin for "Who Benefits"? Figure that
one out and you're much more likely to be able to determine the truth
of what you're hearing.

Peace,

Barry



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 138

Today's Topics:
Re: Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Cui Bono?
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Ms. Patricia
Greetings to Ms. Patricia
I'll be offline temporarily
Re: Intelligence
Guess what? I'm offline early.
POWER
'Thank You, Ma'am,,,' (The actual article)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:08:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Return of the Daughter of the Spirituality Thread, part deux (the homecoming)
Message-Id: <199607050008.RAA08838@netcom4.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3147

Laura Goodwin wrote:

[a wonderful meditation, uplifting and full of clarity]

to which I went: Wow!
and
YeSSS! :D

I had a religious experience when I read *The Tao
of Physics*, because of the beautiful way it showed me how science has
caught up with and affirmed the most powerful and subtle insights of
the many religion's mystics (including my own).

[a 'YeSSS!' item. Check it out.]


The failsafe is built in, fortunately, since those who have attained
that divine perspective and power are usually humbled by the climb, and
unlikely to abuse their awareness. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Almost the acid test. Einstein comes to mind.
(Peter take note: child-like)

That's just the way it is. You don't have
to solve a problem to be free of it's power, you can just see it
differently...that's one of the joys of spiritual discipline: you get
relief from many of humanity's woes (without necessarily making them go
away).

Believe it:

Some of you know I sustained two major hits recently- a
financial one in May and a professional one in June- real
disasters by conventional standards, and 10 years ago I would
have gone into serious Victim mode. But this time around all I
see is opportunity, unburdening and a welcome chance to start
over and do the things that are really important. All things new.

Certainly Christanity has fostered some towering souls, but so has
Tantrism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Shintoism, Islam, Wiccan and
other nature religions. Even the Atheists have produced some moral
giants.

Bertrand Russell (if his abominable philandering can be
overlooked) and Stephen (sp?) J Gould come to mind. Russell
has written two books, _A History Of Western Philosophy_ and
_The Wisdom Of The West_, that are must reads: they embody
the best single summary of our intellectual heritage, the Western
(yes: read Patriarchal) canon, the best of Dead White Male thought.
My students also are urged to read Russell's _Why I am not a
Christian_ to test their own perspective, because Russell was
nothing if not honest (except about his own relationships).

I guess it's not _how you get there_, but *that you do*.

Amen. The Nike slogan. Why my .sig says 'show up.'

I just wish a way could be found to
make it easier for *our* tribe.

But: Knowledge won the hard way is the kind that sticks.

(11 years ago =today= I lost my battle with alcohol and died,
almost, blood everywhere. The proud drunk lost his battle and died.
Somebody newer and a tiny tad wiser emerged from that ruin.
The cost was enormous, but still worth it.)

Eleutheria! Libertad(e)! Svoboda! :D
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:02:56 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607050258.CAA29584@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 4 Jul 96 at 0:19, Jet wrote:


I would like to subscribe to The Pearl and SubMiss mailing
lists... How do I get in touch with them?



"SubMiss"

In both cases they are not fully automated lists so
just send an Email and ask to subscribe.

Warm regards,
David.
.

The only problem with reality is that there is no
'danger music'.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 96 3:02:02 EDT
From: The person your mother warned you about
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:02:28 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Cui Bono?
Message-Id: <199607050702.JAA13919@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Friends,

There have been several postings recently concerning the validity
of statistics and "facts" presented by various sources. In America
at least the information providers are overwhelmingly controlled by the
rich and powerful, making the truth even more difficult to discern.
In politics there is an old saying called "Follow the Money"; if
you can determine where a politician's campaign contributions are coming
from you will be able to make a lot more sense of that person's voting
record no matter what nonsense or excuses he/she decides to spew.
Whenever I hear information or statistics in general, my first
reaction is "Cui Bono?" This is Latin for "Who Benefits"? Figure that
one out and you're much more likely to be able to determine the truth
of what you're hearing.

Peace,

Barry


Agree. But this is true for any kind of information, since information is
THE BIG business of our century, and maybe was a big deal in all centuries
before. It is very good to be aware of this, since every tv-channel is
owned by somebody and every newspaper is biased. As long as there are
several independend resources I dont see anything bad on this, but how much
we all are influenced by the information we receive is clearly seen in
dictatorial countries, or in religious groups who subscribe to only one
book.Information is power is money.
peace,too

Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 07:30:30 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <199607051430.HAA00189@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

Laura--

I am not raising my daughter in anyway in
particular, but for sure, understanding, tolerating and caring for
other 'types' of people. I teach her that what's important is how
they look inside: can they be trusted, honest, and loyal...

Jet, this is sooo important, and I wish I had been taught that at that
age... you are a great mom! :) The trick is how to know that you can
trust them. So many people leap into relationships, saying, "You gotta
trust..." but the person you really trust at that point is yourself.
You don't know the other person enough to really trust them for a
while. I believe in not trusting or leaning on a person too much (and
not allowing myself to be leaned on to hard too soon) until the
relationship has had a chance to mature a while. Unless I'm in a
burning building and it's a fireperson. :) Then it's, "Hello, Darling,
*Love* the boots, lead on!" ;) LOL!

This is more of what I was wondering about the life-style, as well as
the daily rituals. Do you have little signals that you give each
other or do you have certain times of the day? How do you let each
other know and not let your son know? I don't want to get too
personal, but more how you work it into your daily lives.

I'm an unusual case, because I'm a very out activist and have had to
make my kids savvy so they could cope with the armies of nice and not
so nice people I come to grips with every day. Daddy Bruce and I are
open with our kids. Yes, they know Daddy is my love slave and that I'm
the boss in our house. Yes, they have seen me in full dress leathers
on my way to or from events I'm a part of. Yes, they have marched with
me in the Pride parades as part of the leather contingent. Yes, they
have seen my whips, and handled my handcuffs. I taught them how to tie
and untie different knots. I tried to make all this as casual and
normal for them as possible. They are therefore not alarmed by the
sight of a big, tattooed motorcyclist in leather. They know that the
really scary people are those gangster kids in sweatpants with one leg
hiked up to the knee! LOL

My 13 year old son Jason is very cool about everything, but my daughter
Ariana, at eight, is pretty oblivious. They are aware that other
families are different from ours, that our family has more than the
usual amount of excitement going on, but they see that Dad and I love
each other with devotion, and that we are cool parents that their
friends (I'm told) envy them for.

On a different topic you said:

Some perverts are criminals, but most
people that live life differently (that others call perverts) are not.
I don't consider bdsm, being bi, lesbian, gay, etc. being perverts.
I know it's semantics, but it's important that we don't use words that
have negative connotations.

There are two schools of thought on this issue: some say don't use the
words that our enemies oppressed us with, others say, use the words our
way and force our enemies to define them the way we do.

Therefore, some Wiccans insist on calling themselves witches, others
don't. Some Gays are proudly queer, others aren't. Some fetishists
enjoy calling themselves and their friends kinko, pervert: some will
never like the sound of it, period.

Me? I once had a T-shirt made that read, "BITCH IS BEAUTIFUL" and wore
it all over the place! Got some interesting comments, you bet, many of
them positive. :)

--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:25:11 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Ms. Patricia
Message-ID: <960705112510_349516818@emout10.mail.aol.com

To Ms. Patricia, my Patroness,

I beseech Thee, Exalted Lady, Shepherdess
of men, to accept my humble felicitations.
meretool has been away for a while but he
has returned to the fold. my new screen name
is a token of my genetic inferiority ... the
capital X and the small deformed y. AOL
makes the first letter of every name upper case
and i thought capital y was unseemly. i hope
You are well, Ma'am. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:03:36 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Greetings to Ms. Patricia
Message-ID: <960705120335_349548317@emout17.mail.aol.com

Ms. Patricia, my Patroness,

i beseech You, Exalted Lady, Shepherdess
of men, to accept my humble greetings. meretool
has been away for a while but he has returned
to the flock, ready to learn. meretool hopes You
are well, Ma'am. Your aspiring boy, meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:21:06 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: I'll be offline temporarily
Message-Id: <199607051621.JAA09702@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com

I am going offline next week for a few days for an upgrade.
Configuration and getting used to my new operating system will probably
be a pain. Since I normally get 100-300 pieces of email daily, I
expect to be hopelessly swamped when I come back. Have mercy! :)


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:39:20 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199607051734.TAA02282@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Asked Phoenix:

Well, I'm not arguing much with this. I'm all in favor of good science, and
I know there's plenty of the other kind out there. Like I said, I'd like to
see the study. Just out of curiosity, who exactly do you think is profiting
from this "misinformation?"

First of course the people who want to argue that the present social situation
is acceptable, even beneficial, and at any rat inevitable beacuse those who
are disadvantaged economically or socially are that because they are
genuinely and congenitally inferior---and of course thos who do profit from
the present social setup!
And secondly the journalists who get cheap copy without straining their
obviously not very robust minds.

I'm also wondering if you have actually read the study. What if the X
chromosome DOES have a major effect on intelligence? Is this likely to have
make any difference beyond a possible improvement in the regard men have for
intelligent women?

The source was a review in Scientific American (I do not have it here right
now, so I cannot quote issue and page). The test was the standard Stamford-
Binet.

Best regards,
TW


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 10:34:18 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Guess what? I'm offline early.
Message-Id: <199607051734.KAA10527@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

My computer god Marc showed up to take my putt-putt away...see you in a
few days, *I hope*!

"What'll we do 'til then!?" :::sob:::

Maybe I'll do some laundry, catch up on my reading, fold all the paper
bags in my closet, clean my grout...

Yeah, right! ;)

--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:39:11 -0400
From: Tom2440@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: POWER
Message-ID: <960705153909_570529588@emout17.mail.aol.com

A while ago i joined an organization called POWER, which stood for
Promoting the Organization of Women Enlightened to Rule. Correspondence to me
has been very sporadic. Can anyone tell me the current status of this
organization or recommend any other organizations which promote Female
Supremacy and the return to Matriarchal rule?



Respectfully

tom

P.S. Special hello to Mistress Kimberly

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
Subject: 'Thank You, Ma'am,,,' (The actual article)
Message-Id: <199607052209.PAA18236@netcom2.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 9694

Here is the article I reviewed in my June 26 post 'A Done Deal,,,'
dowmloaded from _Fast Company's_ web site. Please honor all copyrights
stated or implied and use the article for discussion and study only, and
never for profit. Do not distribute this article without the copyright
notice and the author's name, or otheriwse edited. I have omitted the
author's email address but will provide it if I know you. Buy the
magazine. :)
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
All of this is Copyright © 1996 by Fast Company, all rights reserved.
Distribute(d) privately and not for profit, for discussion purposes only.

Getting http://www.fascompany.com/fastco/issues/third/TocThird.htm
_________________________________________________________________

Fast Company June-July 1996/Issue Number 3

FEATURES

* FC KNOWLEDGE EXCHANGE
[19]`Thank You Ma'am, May I Have Another?'--Harriet Rubin

'Thank you Ma'am, may I Have Another?'

By Harriet Rubin
Illustration by Barry Blitt

I have always loved men and always hated their power. Too often I've
seen them wield it in ways that are cruel, unfair, antagonistic. But
recently my perspective on men's power has begun to shift. Now trying
to find my old righteous anger is like trying to fake a sneeze.
Something's changed, on the order of the momentous. The signs are
there: male dominance in business ends in the 1990s. The battle
between the sexes is ending. In fact, the sexes themselves may be on
the verge of disappearing from corporate wars.

I had my first sniff of change last summer. I was invited to a
conference of metabolic princes--the heads, or maybe the halos, of
several of the country's superpower companies. It's the kind of woodsy
retreat where everyone's on the cellular and four FedEx trucks arrive
each day to keep the 200 attendees feeling important. I was thrilled
to be there. I felt I'd been summoned as a Player in her own right.

And then I went to the opening-night barbecue. The covers of Fortune
magazine had come to life and assembled in a single field of
wildflowers and burning beef. White men, all facing right. I headed
toward a group of three men who together could buy and sell half the
United States. No prince or king ever held more power. I extended my
hand as introductions went around. The potentates glanced at me,
ignored my extended hand--and went on with their conversation.

I looked around. Had I disappeared? The men had treated me as if I
were the Venus de Milo on loan from some other rich guy's museum--a
nice piece of background but clearly without a hand to shake. I had
disappeared, and so had all the other women. We were in this verdant,
smoky field as "guests." That was our offcial status. We were not
there to speak. And no one was there to listen.

In the past, situations like this evoked holy ire in me. But not this
time. And not a month later, when I met up with one of the business
patriarchs who'd been there and asked him why no powerful women had
been invited as full participants.

"Why should I invite women to participate?" he shot back. "They will
never have power. It's obvious why. They are either breeders or
neuters. If they're breeders, their energy is dissipated onto their
children. If they're neuters, they're as good as spayed--not fit to
fight."

The words were those of a gender Nazi. But there was no force behind
them. And then he sneered, like a vaudeville villain. "If you ever
repeat that outside this room, I'll deny I said it." Of course he
would. How could he cling to such an outmoded idea?

The answer, I knew, was simple: men are still clinging to the hope
that women are powerless, because they haven't got much else to cling
to. The leadership elite in this country is in as much trouble as
blue-collar men whose jobs are disappearing, never to return. The
leadership elite is finding that power--the basis of masculinity,
control, and prestige--is also disappearing.

You see this in the darndest places. Talk about being spayed. Penile
implants undertaken as "remediation" is the fastest growing category
of elective surgery. Dominatrices are doing land-office business. A
well-known San Francisco dominatrix tells me that powerful men are
desperate to break the compulsion of always having to be in control.
CEOs regularly roll themselves under her Manolo Blahnik pumps. It rang
true. One CEO I'd pursued for a book (he never signed) said to me,
"Ask anything you want of me." "Right," I laughed, "like you'll take
orders from me?" He looked surprised. "Of course I will. I love being
controlled. It's like being in an airport. I want signs that tell me:
go here, go there, eat now, pee later."

I think of myself as a canary in a coal mine. I make my living finding
new ideas and putting them into words. I always need to work five
years into the future. One of my authors calls me the diva of business
publishing, but I don't sing. I listen and absorb. These days, I
notice, more and more of the men who come to see me don't want to talk
about business. They want to give words to things they don't know, not
things they do know. Mostly what they don't know is who they are.

These men have subordinates who insist they keep alive the routines of
power. Most have wives they are proud of but can't talk to about their
fears and weaknesses. To many, Shanghai is less foreign than love. If
they could find the language and the tenderness, they would trade
power for love in a heartbeat. Privately, many are asking themselves
what kind of power there really is in selling their services or
marketing their products or making their end-of-the-year numbers.

A colleague sat in on one of my conferences with a prominent male
executive who wanted to talk about writing a book. Afterward she
asked, "Do you think he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown?" Maybe
the country's entire leadership elite is on the verge of a nervous
breakdown. Some of these men sound so frail and lost that I have to
remind myself that they steer major corporations. If they were driving
Amtrak trains, somebody would say to them: Time to come in for a
little testing.

This is a man's glass ceiling. You don't bump your head against it. In
fact, you don't bump up against anything. It's empty up there. Once
you arrive, you're left with nothing.

For men of power, the glass ceiling is the top of a 100-foot glass
pole. Where do you go when you reach the top of the 100-foot glass
pole? Do you jump off? Climb back down? Hang on for dear life? Wave
dumbly like a flag in the breeze? Or are you left up at the top of the
pole with a sick look on your face, finally realizing that the whole
idea of needing to climb to the top of a pole was one big joke?

I know three men who think that they only imagined a pole in the first
place. One is an entrepreneur who is building a new home for himself a
continent away from his company's headquarters. Another is a computer
gazillionaire who has hired a PR genius to help him manage neither his
business nor his product, but his future -- which he defines as the
moment he escapes from the company he's built. The third is the PR
genius himself, who feels more alive sitting, small and humble, in
rooms filled with surreal paintings than working stiffly next to any
of his clients in their standard-issue chairmen's chairs.

When American Express president Jeffrey Stiefler resigned last
September, he made big news. His was no ordinary job kiss-off.
Stiefler, 49, referred to his departure as "growing up." He didn't
want to feel "constantly conflicted" by the demands of work and his
desire for a personal life. The fight had gone out of the game for
this man who couldn't play social tennis without ramming 100-mph shots
at his friends' wives. No more.

Once upon a time power was in patriarchy, a key motivator. It created
great products and effcient systems. The subordination of women made
for success. Now the opposite is true. The sectors that are growing
are those in which there is no sexual identity--such as on the
Internet. Investors are removing capital from companies in which
gender wars are waged and patriarchy still reigns. Capital is the real
power in this world. And so Netscape is worth $5 billion. Not
surprisingly its business model is fundamentally female--a web created
of relationships.

The dirty little secret is that no one ever liked patriarchy in the
first place. Including men. Perhaps that's why so many are brushing up
on their searching, loving values. They know the game is up. Men who
can't play in a genderless world or a world of feminine values won't
be able to play at all. The market will vote against them. They'll be
gazing off into an empty sky.

Harriet Rubin is the founder and publisher of
currency/doubleday and author of a forthcoming book on women and
power.
_________________________________________________________________

Copyright © 1996 by Fast Company. All rights reserved.
END


Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 174

Today's Topics:
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #172


=
=femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 172
=
=Today's Topics:
= Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
= Re: Thin Is In
= Gay designers
= Re: A new subject
= Spirit in philosophy and religion
= Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
= Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
= Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
= Hi
= [Mailena@aol.com: Re: Help and Femuscle]
= Re: Aggression and arrogance,
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:41:03 -0700
=From: Ray Jones
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
=Message-Id: <199607282041.NAA18451@davinci.renaissoft.com
=Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
=
=At 12:57 PM 7/26/96 -0700, you wrote:
=
=Ray Jones wrote:
=
= I don't disagree you, but I disagree that it is done BECAUSE they are women.
= Salepeople will take advantage of ANYONE they can. They take advantage of
= men just as fast. I've never got a good deal on a car because (like some
= women), I know absolutely nothing about cars. They don't take advantage of
= me because I'm a man. They take advantage of me because they can. The same
= is true of women.
=
=I don't insert my own commentary when I post an article from a
=magazine, because I find it confuses the issue. However, my point
=would have been that women need to start negotiating on big purchases
=like cars, where it is customary to haggle over the price. You often
=
=Hmmmmm..., I don't recall that I was reading a "magazine article", though I
=well could have. I may have misread the article. I get so much mail (3
=mailing lists and lots of personal mail) that I'm always behind and rushing
=to catch up. I often stick my foot in my mouth by misreading or "shooting
=off at the mouth" even though I try to be a moderating force in all issues.
=Sometimes, I "shoot from the hip", though.
=
=Oft' times, commentary is just as easily inferred by what is "not said" as
=it would be if it were. I don't remember the details of the article in
=question and don't feel that is worth arguing about anyway. I agree with
=your "point".
=
=What I had (and still do have) a problem with was the "tone" (if not the
=actual verbiage) of the article (whether written by you or someone else)
=said or "implied" that women were taken advantage of BECAUSE they were
=women. I don't even argue that this is sometimes true. More often, however,
=it is because women are generally less knowledgeable about cars and less
=agressive than men. They are more liable to let someone "roll over them".
=
=I realize this is a fem-supremacy list and I agree with that for the most
=part. Though I agree that females are superior in many (maybe even in all
=aspects), I don't feel that "men" should be the fall guys either. We are all
=what we are and must do the best we can with what we have. If, indeed, women
=are superior it is not due to any actions or inactions of their own. It is
=simply an "act of God", "evolution" or "a combination" depending on what the
=actual truth is.
=
=have a lot of good points, but you have this tendency to assume that
=everything the women here say is meant to be, "Those men, they only
=put us down." These discussions aren't a competition over who's right
=
=Perhaps I do, but I don't concur. In any newsgroup or other conversation, I
=have always tended to be a moderate and ameliorating force. I don't believe
=in fanatacism in any form. There are always (at least) 3 sides to every
=story, "your side", "my side" and the "correct side". The truth is almost
=always somewhere in the middle. I'm willing to admit I might be at fault for
=drawing a false conclusion. Are you willing to admit that the tone or
=verbiage of the article might also have led me to draw that conclusion?
=
=If you have the original article, send it to me via e-mail. I'll re-read it
=and see if I see it any differently. Regardless, both of our points are valid.
=
= Yours Women must take more responsiblility to haggle with sales
=people and not be "steam-rolled".
= Mine Sales people will try to take advantage of anyone they
=think they can whether they're a man or a woman.
=
=and wrong. :) They should be focused on solutions. The solution,
=here, is for women to start haggling. It's nervewracking the first
=time you do it, I remember trying to haggle over a blanket in Mexico
=as a teenager. But, really, once you're used to it then it can be
=fun, and you can come away with a nice sense of pride for having saved
=yourself a bit of cash.
=
=I agree. I'm not a haggler either. I feel the person selling has a right to
=ask what they want. I have an equal right to not accept and walk away. If
=the other person really wants to sell, they'll come after you. If not, I'll
=go somewhere else. Again, I'm in "the middle". I don't haggle, but I do my
=best not to let them steamroll me either.
=
= The average woman (if there is one) has more hair than the average man. It
= takes more time and effort to cut and style. It takes longer to do it. More
= products are used. Regardless, I question anyone paying that much for a
= haircut. I walk in, sit down, walk out 15 or 20 minutes later. The barber
= cuts a little off the top, shaves the sideburns, sprays a little water (or
= whatever it is) on my hair, combs it, vacuums me off and takes off the
= protective sheet. It costs me $5.00 and I walk out the door. I make no
= appointment and I seldom wait. I'd cut my own hair or let it grow before I'd
= pay such ridiculous prices for a haircut whether I was a man or a woman.
=
=Right now, there are a lot of women with very short hair (at least in
=the US and Canada). There are a lot of men with long hair. There are
=a lot of men with fancy multilayered cuts. If anything, the only
=major differences between the sexes when it comes to hair care today
=is that women may want more drying and whatnot afterwards, and
=mousse. However, I'm not sure I'd agree with that either.
=
=True, but (again) the AVERAGE woman still has more hair and wants more
=styling, products used etc. than the AVERAGE man. Like I said, I only pay $5
=bucks for a hair cut. I think the average price of a "barber" is around $6
=or $8. Many men go to "hair stylists" like women do. That's just a fancy way
=to get "ripped off". I don't have any statistics, but I'd bet that probably
=75-90% of men go to a "barber" while 80-90% of women go to "hair stylists".
=Hair stylists charge much more than barbers. My wife (out of choice) goes to
=a barber. She doesn't want to get ripped off either.
=
=
=--
=Regards,
=
=Ray Jones
=****************************************************************************
= Coming to New Orleans? Contact "Big Ray" the Buggy Driver
= Licensed Tour Guide
=
= Historical tours through the romantic French Quarter in New Orleans, LA
= Ride in a mule-drawn "vis-a-vis" carriage while enjoying the surroundings-
= and being informed about the history, points of interest and other info
=
= Cellular Phone - 884-9572 Digital Beeper 504-547-8032
= Thu. thru Mon. 5 p.m. to midnight (appx.)
=
=
= ray.jones@mail.sstar.com OR ray.jones@nopc.org
=
= "Big Ray"'s home page http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html
=
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:39:24 -0700
=From: Ray Jones
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Re: Thin Is In
=Message-Id: <199607282039.NAA18252@davinci.renaissoft.com
=Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
=
=At 03:32 PM 7/26/96 -0700, you wrote:
=
=Men who love women don't want them to get sick and die just to fulfill
=some fantasy of theirs...they would rather kill their fantasy, then have
=the woman they love die....IMNSHO
=
=I wouldn't even want a woman (or man - well maybe - grin) that I HATED to
=die to fulfill a fantasy or even a real life thought. How could anyone in
=their right mind wish anyone would die?
=
=Of course, there is NO ONE that I really HATE. There are a few that I
=actively dislike and more that I do my best not to be around, but HATE takes
=up too much time and effort to waste on someone I don't like in the first place.
=
=
=
=
=--
=Regards,
=
=Ray Jones
=****************************************************************************
= Coming to New Orleans? Contact "Big Ray" the Buggy Driver
= Licensed Tour Guide
=
= Historical tours through the romantic French Quarter in New Orleans, LA
= Ride in a mule-drawn "vis-a-vis" carriage while enjoying the surroundings-
= and being informed about the history, points of interest and other info
=
= Cellular Phone - 884-9572 Digital Beeper 504-547-8032
= Thu. thru Mon. 5 p.m. to midnight (appx.)
=
=
= ray.jones@mail.sstar.com OR ray.jones@nopc.org
=
= "Big Ray"'s home page http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html
=
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:00:21 -0700
=From: Spirit Wind
=To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
=CC: dee@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Gay designers
=Message-ID: <31FAC9B4.1983@crosslink.net
=Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
=Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
=
= I think you can appreciate a
= gender's body without being sexually interested.
=
=Absolutely true. In general though, their designs do reflect sexual
=orientation to some degree. I'm sure you could design clothes for a
=woman and I for a man, but a lesbian may have a much different take on it
=than you. If she were a dom., she might go one way a sub another, and it
=may all be subconscious. There are exceptional people who are very
=intuitive and can really relate to other roles.
=
= Half of the "high fashion" industry seems to design for art more than
= function anyway. They just want some high paid, surgically enhanced
= woman to pay big bucks for their stuff.
=
=I don't mind art. I mind Barbie more. My whole point is that guy males
=are setting fashion trends that encourage very thin body types to fit in
=to this stuff and "real" women as you say can't. What do they know
=anyway about your needs? I guess if their fem. and know how to attract a
=guy like a woman would they may relate to you better than I would!
=Gender roles are confusing enough as it is these days. Love art, Love
=women, PLATONICALLY love gay people, Don't love societies war on the
="normal" gal
=making her feel inferior if she isn't built like a stick person.
=
=Peace
=
=Spirit Wind
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:53:41 -0700 (PDT)
=From: zbobz
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Re: A new subject
=Message-Id: <199607290053.RAA19311@serbia.it.earthlink.net
=Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
=
=cs wrote:
= Just asking, with a hint that perhaps there are other arrangements
= that FS discusssion ought to consider. (My own _oikos_ consists of
= a loose gaggle / guild / community of mostly women, largely but
= not exclusively Lesbian, some as couples, with me as the hole in
= the donut and in some places extending to online. Wilma's manifestly
= FS household -not hers exactly, Femina's- is F/fff/m.) This is just
= a small plea for recognition of other than the F/m model.
=---------------------------------------------------------------------------
=I've often wondered about the F/f/m model, which would seem to have some
=distinct advantages.
=-------------------
=
=1-It's very similar to the familiar diadic family unit, and would probably
=lend itself to an easy transition.
=
=2-From an economic stand point it would seem like a natural progression. It
=used to take just one wage earner to support a home. Then it started taking
=two, and now it really takes more than two in many cases, but unfortunately
=when you reach two there aren't any left to call on. At least there
=weren't; wouldn't it be convenient if there were another one.
=
=3-Because there are numerically more Women than men the family diad
=guarantees that some Women won't have a male to pair with. A family triad
=with two Women per family would guarantee that every Woman would have a
=place. There would of course be a surplus of men, but that would also
=increase the options that Women have in selecting the best and most
=desireable males (which is Their biological mandate.)
=
=4-It would increase the options that Women have in expressing their sexuality.
=
=5-It would improve the resources and ability of the family unit to deal with
=the demands and stresses of child bearing and child rearing.
=
=6-It would shift the balance of gender orientation in the family unit firmly
=to the Feminine.
=
=----------------------------------------------------------
=There are a couple nagging problems with all that, though.
=
=1-It's hopelessly optimistic about people and the difficulties they
=generally bring on themselves.
=
=2-There's the problem of complexity that adding just one more person would
=engender. With a diad there is one (just one) relationship to deal with.
=With the F/f/m triad there are the following relationships to be considered,
=and dealt with:
=
= 1-F/f
= 2-F/m
= 3-f/m
= 4-(F/f)/m
= 5-(F/m)/f
= 6-F/(f/m)
= 7-(F/f/m)
=
=The situation gets worse very quickly as the number of members increases,
=but can be mitigated somewhat by compartmentalizing some of the
=relationships (as in a tribe or clan?)
=
=While one has to wonder how stable family groupings larger than two would
=be, this would seem to be similar in form to the mormon polygamous family,
=with the authority switched between genders. So there would seem to be some
=reason to think that such arrangements can function well enough in some
=contexts. (Now that I think about it, isn't it true that polygamy has been
=practiced from time to time in various cultures down through history, though
=polyandry has been rare.) My understanding is that Polygamy has been almost
=universally replaced by monogamy, and I have to wonder why, and if perhaps
=the same shaping forces wouldn't be antagonistic to multiple member Female
=headed family groups.
=
=-------
=Some other interesting models come to mind too.
=
=1. F/f
=2. (F/m)/(f/m)
=3. F/[(f/m),(f/m) ... (f/m)]
=
=Interesting fantasy material if nothing else.
=
= zbobz
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
=From: zbobz
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Spirit in philosophy and religion
=Message-Id: <199607290313.UAA26072@serbia.it.earthlink.net
=Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
=
=SPIRITUALITY, RELIGION, AND PHILOSOPHY
=
=No one in her right mind would write on this subject here. Yes, it is an
=important subject. But the chances of anyone (even one person)
=understanding someone else's attempt at this (or perhaps even reading past
=the first couple of lines) is tiny at best. Let no one say I am not a true
=masochist.
=
=----------
=Is spirituality a turn off? Yes and no. Part of the problem with it is
=that spirituality means something different to each of us. Discussion of
=spirituality in terms that are not individually meaningful probably is a
=turn off. Yet do we not all share the quest to understand the meaning of
=things ... of what each of us is and what life means? Isn't that quest for
=the essence or spirit what spirituality is about? How can that be a turn off?
=
=So ... you ask, how can it be made individually meaningful if that would be
=different for each of us.
=
=Funny you should ask ...I was just going to tell you ... but it's going to
=take a little patience.
=
=(start patience here)
=---------------------
=There would seem to be two major approaches to the questions of essence and
=meaning that correspond to primarily emotive (old brain) processes, or
=rational (cerebral) processes. There is, of course, mixing and blending,
=but ultimately it seems that the approaches find their roots in one or the
=other. The former approaches generally are called religions, and rely on
=conviction and belief (emotions), while the later are generally called
=philosophies, and rely on logical analysis (reasoning). Those of the
=religious orientation often describe spirit and meaning in animistic or
=anthropomorphic terms. Those of philosophical orientation often describe
=spirit and meaning in terms of abstractions and concepts.
=
=The two approaches are couched in different language and take their
=authority from difference sources, but it is not at all obvious that the
=conclusions to be drawn from them are all that different; after all, they
=each must ultimately begin with, and arrive back, at the same reality.
=(But, then again some of them start with reality but never quite make it back.)
=--------------------------------------------------------------
=(end patience here ... but you'll probably want to keep it handy)
=
=What sometimes happens is that spirituality is presented in religious terms
=that goes right past some of us dyed in the wool rationalists. Most of the
=time, I would hazard to say the essence of what is said has a rationalist
=equivalent, and that the equivalent is a highly complex ... so complex in
=fact that it is difficult to relate meaningfully to life.
=
=The Goddess:
=
= Perhaps general systems theory is best at capturing for the
=rationalist what the Goddess means to the intuitor. (Ludwig von
=Bertalanffy, **General Systems Theory**, 1968, is an early call from the
=point of view of the generalist for principles that integrate the
=reductionist scientific schools into an overarching whole; Gregory Bateson,
=**Mind and Nature**, 1979, describes from the perspective of a biologist, a
=general systems model of nature (everything) where the Whole grows and
=reforms in an essentially organic way; among many in the context of
=contemporary physics, Nick Herbert, **Elemental Mind**, 1993, describes an
=integration of the physical and the conscious into a single universal
=Whole.) What is perhaps significant here is the rationalist derivation of
=the Universal principle, which is not unlike the notion of The Goddess whose
=will directs the course of existence, of the earth and its it inhabitants.
=Is that spiritual? I think so.
=
=Anthropomorphy, animism and complexity.
=
= Complexity is a very *in* thing for rationalists these days, and is an
=active area of study and publication. One of the areas of interest in
=complexity is *chaos* which refers to the realization that even simple
=phenomona may be effectively indeterminate at some point, that is,
=effectively random. (There have been a number of general reader books
=published on this subject in the past few years, one I have at hand is by
=Stephen H. Kellert, **In the Wake of Chaos**, 1993.) The essence of what's
=interesting about this stuff is that even simple events can be shaped in
=dramatic ways by temporally, spatially, and conceptually remote variables
=(the flap of a butterfly's wings in China that will determine the next Wall
=Street crash.) The ultimate implications of chaos theory, of interest here,
=are that true cause and effect may only be achieved (or known) in the
=context of the Whole. It is as if there were a Universal will of the whole
=(the Goddess?)
=
= So for the rationalist there are things that cannot be known ... that
=do not fit neatly into Her attempt to understand how the knowable parts fit
=together ... it is inevitable that some parts will be missed and that
=sometimes it will be the missing ones that make the difference. There is a
=Whole and that Whole must be dealt with on its own terms. Goddess, or god
=are labels that some may apply. Do rationalists have another word for it?
=I don't know of it. The reason I think that the concept has been captured
=as a willfull human or animal deity is that it provides an intuitive label
=that embodies the essence of the concept in a way that can be understood
=easily, and effectively applied in the course of life. Afterall an
=intelligent living being is a very close model ... known and predictable,
=yet never fully known, a whole that makes sense only in the context of Her
=entire existence, a being of spontaneity and willfulness, yet a being who's
=will is shaped by events.
=
=Why a Feminine Ulimate Whole: The Goddess
=
= Which came first the Goddess or Woman? (This is a chicken or egg
=question.) I've heard it expressed that Woman was made in the image of the
=Goddess. In a sense that would seem so. Woman is a part of the Whole ...
=but so is the male, and so again why do we attribute the gender of one part
=to the Whole and not the other? Perhaps the answer is in the fact that it
=is Woman who's qualities and character we most respect (both admire and
=fear), and on account of that felt respect we attribute Her gender to the
=greatest entity of all.
=
=---------
=If you've made it this far then perhaps you are even more of a masochist than I.
=
=I wrote this primarily to clarify my own thoughts, so if you didn't make it
=down this far it's still been worthwhile ... but if someone else found it
=interesting then that would make it even more worthwhile, but either way ...
=there you have it.
=
= zbobz
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
i get bored with you
i allready asked several times to unsuscribe your group
stop sending me your messages!!!!
=Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 00:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
=From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
=Message-Id: <199607290715.AAA02303@catherine.renaissoft.com
=Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
=Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
=Content-Length: 1104
=
=Ray Jones wrote:
=
= Hmmmmm..., I don't recall that I was reading a "magazine article", though I
= well could have. I may have misread the article. I get so much mail (3
= mailing lists and lots of personal mail) that I'm always behind and rushing
= to catch up. I often stick my foot in my mouth by misreading or "shooting
= off at the mouth" even though I try to be a moderating force in all issues.
= Sometimes, I "shoot from the hip", though.
=
= If you have the original article, send it to me via e-mail. I'll re-read it
= and see if I see it any differently. Regardless, both of our points are valid.
=
=Please re-read the post that started this thread. At the very
=beginning was the title of the article and whatnot. It was from a
=magazine. I type in relevant articles from time to time to generate
=discussion.
=
=Dee-Ann
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:25:12 +0100
=From: robert and fiona forsythe
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
=Message-ID:
=
=In message <199607290313.UAA26072@serbia.it.earthlink.net, zbobz
=
=SPIRITUALITY, RELIGION, AND PHILOSOPHY
=
=No one in her right mind would write on this subject here.
=
=So you promptly went ahead and did so (just as we cannot help doing),
=funny that,
=we must all be in our "wrong" minds or at the least in the ones labelled
="silly",
=
=perhaps it is what you get when you dump sensitive human creatures able
=to conceive of choice, perfection, beauty and "heaven" onto this planet,
=apparently without so much as a by your leave...........
=
=Robert has always found it odd that since we (he?: Fiona does not get
=nearly so wound up by this, nor even by fs) are so obsessed by freedom
=and choice, there was not much of it going about when he was born.
=
=So it was he formed his opinion that he had accidentally dropped onto
=this planet by mistake (he was really meant for the one where no-one
=ever gets hurt and you can wear rubber clothing and play with trains all
=day and the beings would probably be hermaphrodite).
=
=Anyway zbobz, thanks for your efforts, they will be referred too; and
=with a name like that, perhaps you are on the wrong planet too?
=--
=fiona and robert forsythe
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 05:45:06 -0700 (PDT)
=From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
=Message-Id: <199607291245.FAA25116@netcom20.netcom.com
=Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
=Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
=Content-Length: 1428
=
=zbobz wrote
=
=
= No one in her right mind would write on this subject here.
=
= True. And a good thing, too.
=
= It's far too important a subject to entrust to 'right minds.'
=
= [etc.]
=
= Is spirituality a turn off?
=
= I'm glad you've asked. I said it was, and ended up as
= Dee's Tantric archives-but-no-sex slave for the duration.
= Duration of what I'm not sure.
=
= But thank you for the post, zbobz
=
= There have been some good threads lately leading up to
= your essay (some of them written by you- hey! I do that, too).
=
=
=
= In case anyone cares, about half of my huge old mulberrry
= tree was weakened by a storm over the weekend and overnight
= gracefully fell to the ground and buried my truck, carefully
= placing the really big branches to make sure I never get out,
= which is kinda neat, a sort of Gaia Vindex metaphor or something.
= There goes my connect time, too. ;9
=
= Oh: the Forsythes are wrong: zbobz is not from another planet.
= S/he (?) is from France.
=--
= coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com
=
= Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
= The rest is hidden.
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:57:26 +0000
=From: 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Hi
=Message-ID: <6EC52600DB5@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk
=
=Hi,
=
=I just joined this mailing list. Are any of the WOMEN on this list located
=in Great Britain ?
=
=Tom
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:04:48 +0200
=From: silverheart
=To: femsuprem@renaissoft.com
=Subject: [Mailena@aol.com: Re: Help and Femuscle]
=Message-ID:
=
=I'm forwarding this message from Mailena which was clearly
=intended for the list. - silverheart
=
=---
=
=Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:09:58 -0400
=From: Mailena@aol.com
=Message-ID: <960728010957_247263293@emout19.mail.aol.com
=To: simstim@math.uio.no
=Subject: Re: Help and Femuscle
=
=In a message dated 96-07-27 07:54:41 EDT, you write:
=
=<< Daily Mail July 22nd - reported by Jane Gordon - based on
= research by Dr Robert McHenry, of the Oxford Psychologists
= Press.
=
= Quote : Todays young women are not only physically more
= masculine - taller and wider - they are also becoming more
= like men in personality too. Young women are now more
= aggressive, more arrogant -
=
=
=Does anyone know of where to find the full text for the above quote?
=I am building a web site on this and would like to know!
=
= Mailena
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=------------------------------
=
=Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:01:31 +0200
=From: silverheart
=To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
=Subject: Re: Aggression and arrogance,
=Message-ID:
=
= like men in personality too. Young women are now more
= aggressive, more arrogant -
=
= Great! Fewer victims, less harassment, less rape etc.
=
= With an all around increased level of aggression and
= arrogance there will most likely be more victims,
=
=I disagree. Aggression -- not to be confused with violence --
=means that a person will stand up for herself. Most bullies
=are cowards who will back off from people who are not afraid
=to speak up; or if necessary, hit back.
=
= If now only the men could become more like the women too!
=
= That would be a better way to go.
=
=Since gender stereotypes tend to suppress natural
=aggressiveness in women, and increase or create artificial
=aggressiveness in men, both ways are necessary -- they are
=both constitutive means to the same end.
=
=silverheart
=
=___________________________________________________________________
=Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
=For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
=mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
=
=--------------------------------
=End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #172
=************************************************
=

un souffre douleur en attente
hugonie@co.uk



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 173

Today's Topics:
Re: Hilary and Morphine
Re: Polygamy vs. Monogamy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 04:43:01 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Hilary and Morphine
Message-Id: <199607300434.EAA05678@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

David Stevenson replying to Dennis (the older male) who
wrote on 26 Jul 96 at 17:59 about Hilary and Morphine

Only just seen your message so I sent the following message

To: email-queries@reference.com
Subject: morphine
Date sent: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:27:25 +0100


PASSWORD anyword

DEFINE QUERY morphine AS FIND morphine AND help AND NOT music
group band pop

RUN QUERY morphine FOR 1 week

END


I got back four replies, two about computer games, and two about
Morphine and pain.

I'll send the two about Morphine to your Email address.

As you can see I set it up for a week, and if anything else
comes in I'll forward it.

You might care to try adding the word 'games' to the list of
NOT's or making other changes to get the help you need.

I would also recommend this simple searching system to anyone
who finds anything more than Email difficult or expensive (like
me).

I'm up to date with my reading, but haven't much time to answer
things right now. Or post. There's lots I want to say......

Regards,
David.
________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />.Authors of domestic and real life D/s Erotica..<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 00:34:27 -0400
From: Mailena@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: TRANSGEN@brownvm.brown.edu, WOMBAT@listserv.aol.com, zbobz@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Polygamy vs. Monogamy
Message-ID: <960730003423_587955754@emout12.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-07-28 20:55:30 EDT, you write:

<< While one has to wonder how stable family groupings larger than two would
be, this would seem to be similar in form to the mormon polygamous family,
with the authority switched between genders. So there would seem to be some
reason to think that such arrangements can function well enough in some
contexts. (Now that I think about it, isn't it true that polygamy has been
practiced from time to time in various cultures down through history, though
polyandry has been rare.) My understanding is that Polygamy has been almost
universally replaced by monogamy, and I have to wonder why, and if perhaps
the same shaping forces wouldn't be antagonistic to multiple member Female
headed family groups.

-------
Some other interesting models come to mind too.

1. F/f
2. (F/m)/(f/m)
3. F/[(f/m),(f/m) ... (f/m)]

Interesting fantasy material if nothing else.

I think this is very realistic. If it was not for religion as such a strong
social control force, probably the balance could turn over for polygamy
again!!

Mailena













http://members.aol.com/mani2914/private/



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 172

Today's Topics:
Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
Re: Thin Is In
Gay designers
Re: A new subject
Spirit in philosophy and religion
Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
Hi
[Mailena@aol.com: Re: Help and Femuscle]
Re: Aggression and arrogance,

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:41:03 -0700
From: Ray Jones
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
Message-Id: <199607282041.NAA18451@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:57 PM 7/26/96 -0700, you wrote:

Ray Jones wrote:

I don't disagree you, but I disagree that it is done BECAUSE they are women.
Salepeople will take advantage of ANYONE they can. They take advantage of
men just as fast. I've never got a good deal on a car because (like some
women), I know absolutely nothing about cars. They don't take advantage of
me because I'm a man. They take advantage of me because they can. The same
is true of women.

I don't insert my own commentary when I post an article from a
magazine, because I find it confuses the issue. However, my point
would have been that women need to start negotiating on big purchases
like cars, where it is customary to haggle over the price. You often

Hmmmmm..., I don't recall that I was reading a "magazine article", though I
well could have. I may have misread the article. I get so much mail (3
mailing lists and lots of personal mail) that I'm always behind and rushing
to catch up. I often stick my foot in my mouth by misreading or "shooting
off at the mouth" even though I try to be a moderating force in all issues.
Sometimes, I "shoot from the hip", though.

Oft' times, commentary is just as easily inferred by what is "not said" as
it would be if it were. I don't remember the details of the article in
question and don't feel that is worth arguing about anyway. I agree with
your "point".

What I had (and still do have) a problem with was the "tone" (if not the
actual verbiage) of the article (whether written by you or someone else)
said or "implied" that women were taken advantage of BECAUSE they were
women. I don't even argue that this is sometimes true. More often, however,
it is because women are generally less knowledgeable about cars and less
agressive than men. They are more liable to let someone "roll over them".

I realize this is a fem-supremacy list and I agree with that for the most
part. Though I agree that females are superior in many (maybe even in all
aspects), I don't feel that "men" should be the fall guys either. We are all
what we are and must do the best we can with what we have. If, indeed, women
are superior it is not due to any actions or inactions of their own. It is
simply an "act of God", "evolution" or "a combination" depending on what the
actual truth is.

have a lot of good points, but you have this tendency to assume that
everything the women here say is meant to be, "Those men, they only
put us down." These discussions aren't a competition over who's right

Perhaps I do, but I don't concur. In any newsgroup or other conversation, I
have always tended to be a moderate and ameliorating force. I don't believe
in fanatacism in any form. There are always (at least) 3 sides to every
story, "your side", "my side" and the "correct side". The truth is almost
always somewhere in the middle. I'm willing to admit I might be at fault for
drawing a false conclusion. Are you willing to admit that the tone or
verbiage of the article might also have led me to draw that conclusion?

If you have the original article, send it to me via e-mail. I'll re-read it
and see if I see it any differently. Regardless, both of our points are valid.

Yours Women must take more responsiblility to haggle with sales
people and not be "steam-rolled".
Mine Sales people will try to take advantage of anyone they
think they can whether they're a man or a woman.

and wrong. :) They should be focused on solutions. The solution,
here, is for women to start haggling. It's nervewracking the first
time you do it, I remember trying to haggle over a blanket in Mexico
as a teenager. But, really, once you're used to it then it can be
fun, and you can come away with a nice sense of pride for having saved
yourself a bit of cash.

I agree. I'm not a haggler either. I feel the person selling has a right to
ask what they want. I have an equal right to not accept and walk away. If
the other person really wants to sell, they'll come after you. If not, I'll
go somewhere else. Again, I'm in "the middle". I don't haggle, but I do my
best not to let them steamroll me either.

The average woman (if there is one) has more hair than the average man. It
takes more time and effort to cut and style. It takes longer to do it. More
products are used. Regardless, I question anyone paying that much for a
haircut. I walk in, sit down, walk out 15 or 20 minutes later. The barber
cuts a little off the top, shaves the sideburns, sprays a little water (or
whatever it is) on my hair, combs it, vacuums me off and takes off the
protective sheet. It costs me $5.00 and I walk out the door. I make no
appointment and I seldom wait. I'd cut my own hair or let it grow before I'd
pay such ridiculous prices for a haircut whether I was a man or a woman.

Right now, there are a lot of women with very short hair (at least in
the US and Canada). There are a lot of men with long hair. There are
a lot of men with fancy multilayered cuts. If anything, the only
major differences between the sexes when it comes to hair care today
is that women may want more drying and whatnot afterwards, and
mousse. However, I'm not sure I'd agree with that either.

True, but (again) the AVERAGE woman still has more hair and wants more
styling, products used etc. than the AVERAGE man. Like I said, I only pay $5
bucks for a hair cut. I think the average price of a "barber" is around $6
or $8. Many men go to "hair stylists" like women do. That's just a fancy way
to get "ripped off". I don't have any statistics, but I'd bet that probably
75-90% of men go to a "barber" while 80-90% of women go to "hair stylists".
Hair stylists charge much more than barbers. My wife (out of choice) goes to
a barber. She doesn't want to get ripped off either.


--
Regards,

Ray Jones
****************************************************************************
Coming to New Orleans? Contact "Big Ray" the Buggy Driver
Licensed Tour Guide

Historical tours through the romantic French Quarter in New Orleans, LA
Ride in a mule-drawn "vis-a-vis" carriage while enjoying the surroundings-
and being informed about the history, points of interest and other info

Cellular Phone - 884-9572 Digital Beeper 504-547-8032
Thu. thru Mon. 5 p.m. to midnight (appx.)


ray.jones@mail.sstar.com OR ray.jones@nopc.org

"Big Ray"'s home page http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:39:24 -0700
From: Ray Jones
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thin Is In
Message-Id: <199607282039.NAA18252@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:32 PM 7/26/96 -0700, you wrote:

Men who love women don't want them to get sick and die just to fulfill
some fantasy of theirs...they would rather kill their fantasy, then have
the woman they love die....IMNSHO

I wouldn't even want a woman (or man - well maybe - grin) that I HATED to
die to fulfill a fantasy or even a real life thought. How could anyone in
their right mind wish anyone would die?

Of course, there is NO ONE that I really HATE. There are a few that I
actively dislike and more that I do my best not to be around, but HATE takes
up too much time and effort to waste on someone I don't like in the first place.




--
Regards,

Ray Jones
****************************************************************************
Coming to New Orleans? Contact "Big Ray" the Buggy Driver
Licensed Tour Guide

Historical tours through the romantic French Quarter in New Orleans, LA
Ride in a mule-drawn "vis-a-vis" carriage while enjoying the surroundings-
and being informed about the history, points of interest and other info

Cellular Phone - 884-9572 Digital Beeper 504-547-8032
Thu. thru Mon. 5 p.m. to midnight (appx.)


ray.jones@mail.sstar.com OR ray.jones@nopc.org

"Big Ray"'s home page http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:00:21 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
CC: dee@renaissoft.com
Subject: Gay designers
Message-ID: <31FAC9B4.1983@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think you can appreciate a
gender's body without being sexually interested.

Absolutely true. In general though, their designs do reflect sexual
orientation to some degree. I'm sure you could design clothes for a
woman and I for a man, but a lesbian may have a much different take on it
than you. If she were a dom., she might go one way a sub another, and it
may all be subconscious. There are exceptional people who are very
intuitive and can really relate to other roles.

Half of the "high fashion" industry seems to design for art more than
function anyway. They just want some high paid, surgically enhanced
woman to pay big bucks for their stuff.

I don't mind art. I mind Barbie more. My whole point is that guy males
are setting fashion trends that encourage very thin body types to fit in
to this stuff and "real" women as you say can't. What do they know
anyway about your needs? I guess if their fem. and know how to attract a
guy like a woman would they may relate to you better than I would!
Gender roles are confusing enough as it is these days. Love art, Love
women, PLATONICALLY love gay people, Don't love societies war on the
"normal" gal
making her feel inferior if she isn't built like a stick person.

Peace

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:53:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A new subject
Message-Id: <199607290053.RAA19311@serbia.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

cs wrote:
Just asking, with a hint that perhaps there are other arrangements
that FS discusssion ought to consider. (My own _oikos_ consists of
a loose gaggle / guild / community of mostly women, largely but
not exclusively Lesbian, some as couples, with me as the hole in
the donut and in some places extending to online. Wilma's manifestly
FS household -not hers exactly, Femina's- is F/fff/m.) This is just
a small plea for recognition of other than the F/m model.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've often wondered about the F/f/m model, which would seem to have some
distinct advantages.
-------------------

1-It's very similar to the familiar diadic family unit, and would probably
lend itself to an easy transition.

2-From an economic stand point it would seem like a natural progression. It
used to take just one wage earner to support a home. Then it started taking
two, and now it really takes more than two in many cases, but unfortunately
when you reach two there aren't any left to call on. At least there
weren't; wouldn't it be convenient if there were another one.

3-Because there are numerically more Women than men the family diad
guarantees that some Women won't have a male to pair with. A family triad
with two Women per family would guarantee that every Woman would have a
place. There would of course be a surplus of men, but that would also
increase the options that Women have in selecting the best and most
desireable males (which is Their biological mandate.)

4-It would increase the options that Women have in expressing their sexuality.

5-It would improve the resources and ability of the family unit to deal with
the demands and stresses of child bearing and child rearing.

6-It would shift the balance of gender orientation in the family unit firmly
to the Feminine.

----------------------------------------------------------
There are a couple nagging problems with all that, though.

1-It's hopelessly optimistic about people and the difficulties they
generally bring on themselves.

2-There's the problem of complexity that adding just one more person would
engender. With a diad there is one (just one) relationship to deal with.
With the F/f/m triad there are the following relationships to be considered,
and dealt with:

1-F/f
2-F/m
3-f/m
4-(F/f)/m
5-(F/m)/f
6-F/(f/m)
7-(F/f/m)

The situation gets worse very quickly as the number of members increases,
but can be mitigated somewhat by compartmentalizing some of the
relationships (as in a tribe or clan?)

While one has to wonder how stable family groupings larger than two would
be, this would seem to be similar in form to the mormon polygamous family,
with the authority switched between genders. So there would seem to be some
reason to think that such arrangements can function well enough in some
contexts. (Now that I think about it, isn't it true that polygamy has been
practiced from time to time in various cultures down through history, though
polyandry has been rare.) My understanding is that Polygamy has been almost
universally replaced by monogamy, and I have to wonder why, and if perhaps
the same shaping forces wouldn't be antagonistic to multiple member Female
headed family groups.

-------
Some other interesting models come to mind too.

1. F/f
2. (F/m)/(f/m)
3. F/[(f/m),(f/m) ... (f/m)]

Interesting fantasy material if nothing else.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Spirit in philosophy and religion
Message-Id: <199607290313.UAA26072@serbia.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

SPIRITUALITY, RELIGION, AND PHILOSOPHY

No one in her right mind would write on this subject here. Yes, it is an
important subject. But the chances of anyone (even one person)
understanding someone else's attempt at this (or perhaps even reading past
the first couple of lines) is tiny at best. Let no one say I am not a true
masochist.

----------
Is spirituality a turn off? Yes and no. Part of the problem with it is
that spirituality means something different to each of us. Discussion of
spirituality in terms that are not individually meaningful probably is a
turn off. Yet do we not all share the quest to understand the meaning of
things ... of what each of us is and what life means? Isn't that quest for
the essence or spirit what spirituality is about? How can that be a turn off?

So ... you ask, how can it be made individually meaningful if that would be
different for each of us.

Funny you should ask ...I was just going to tell you ... but it's going to
take a little patience.

(start patience here)
---------------------
There would seem to be two major approaches to the questions of essence and
meaning that correspond to primarily emotive (old brain) processes, or
rational (cerebral) processes. There is, of course, mixing and blending,
but ultimately it seems that the approaches find their roots in one or the
other. The former approaches generally are called religions, and rely on
conviction and belief (emotions), while the later are generally called
philosophies, and rely on logical analysis (reasoning). Those of the
religious orientation often describe spirit and meaning in animistic or
anthropomorphic terms. Those of philosophical orientation often describe
spirit and meaning in terms of abstractions and concepts.

The two approaches are couched in different language and take their
authority from difference sources, but it is not at all obvious that the
conclusions to be drawn from them are all that different; after all, they
each must ultimately begin with, and arrive back, at the same reality.
(But, then again some of them start with reality but never quite make it back.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
(end patience here ... but you'll probably want to keep it handy)

What sometimes happens is that spirituality is presented in religious terms
that goes right past some of us dyed in the wool rationalists. Most of the
time, I would hazard to say the essence of what is said has a rationalist
equivalent, and that the equivalent is a highly complex ... so complex in
fact that it is difficult to relate meaningfully to life.

The Goddess:

Perhaps general systems theory is best at capturing for the
rationalist what the Goddess means to the intuitor. (Ludwig von
Bertalanffy, **General Systems Theory**, 1968, is an early call from the
point of view of the generalist for principles that integrate the
reductionist scientific schools into an overarching whole; Gregory Bateson,
**Mind and Nature**, 1979, describes from the perspective of a biologist, a
general systems model of nature (everything) where the Whole grows and
reforms in an essentially organic way; among many in the context of
contemporary physics, Nick Herbert, **Elemental Mind**, 1993, describes an
integration of the physical and the conscious into a single universal
Whole.) What is perhaps significant here is the rationalist derivation of
the Universal principle, which is not unlike the notion of The Goddess whose
will directs the course of existence, of the earth and its it inhabitants.
Is that spiritual? I think so.

Anthropomorphy, animism and complexity.

Complexity is a very *in* thing for rationalists these days, and is an
active area of study and publication. One of the areas of interest in
complexity is *chaos* which refers to the realization that even simple
phenomona may be effectively indeterminate at some point, that is,
effectively random. (There have been a number of general reader books
published on this subject in the past few years, one I have at hand is by
Stephen H. Kellert, **In the Wake of Chaos**, 1993.) The essence of what's
interesting about this stuff is that even simple events can be shaped in
dramatic ways by temporally, spatially, and conceptually remote variables
(the flap of a butterfly's wings in China that will determine the next Wall
Street crash.) The ultimate implications of chaos theory, of interest here,
are that true cause and effect may only be achieved (or known) in the
context of the Whole. It is as if there were a Universal will of the whole
(the Goddess?)

So for the rationalist there are things that cannot be known ... that
do not fit neatly into Her attempt to understand how the knowable parts fit
together ... it is inevitable that some parts will be missed and that
sometimes it will be the missing ones that make the difference. There is a
Whole and that Whole must be dealt with on its own terms. Goddess, or god
are labels that some may apply. Do rationalists have another word for it?
I don't know of it. The reason I think that the concept has been captured
as a willfull human or animal deity is that it provides an intuitive label
that embodies the essence of the concept in a way that can be understood
easily, and effectively applied in the course of life. Afterall an
intelligent living being is a very close model ... known and predictable,
yet never fully known, a whole that makes sense only in the context of Her
entire existence, a being of spontaneity and willfulness, yet a being who's
will is shaped by events.

Why a Feminine Ulimate Whole: The Goddess

Which came first the Goddess or Woman? (This is a chicken or egg
question.) I've heard it expressed that Woman was made in the image of the
Goddess. In a sense that would seem so. Woman is a part of the Whole ...
but so is the male, and so again why do we attribute the gender of one part
to the Whole and not the other? Perhaps the answer is in the fact that it
is Woman who's qualities and character we most respect (both admire and
fear), and on account of that felt respect we attribute Her gender to the
greatest entity of all.

---------
If you've made it this far then perhaps you are even more of a masochist than I.

I wrote this primarily to clarify my own thoughts, so if you didn't make it
down this far it's still been worthwhile ... but if someone else found it
interesting then that would make it even more worthwhile, but either way ...
there you have it.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 00:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Article: There Oughta Be a Law
Message-Id: <199607290715.AAA02303@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1104

Ray Jones wrote:

Hmmmmm..., I don't recall that I was reading a "magazine article", though I
well could have. I may have misread the article. I get so much mail (3
mailing lists and lots of personal mail) that I'm always behind and rushing
to catch up. I often stick my foot in my mouth by misreading or "shooting
off at the mouth" even though I try to be a moderating force in all issues.
Sometimes, I "shoot from the hip", though.

If you have the original article, send it to me via e-mail. I'll re-read it
and see if I see it any differently. Regardless, both of our points are valid.

Please re-read the post that started this thread. At the very
beginning was the title of the article and whatnot. It was from a
magazine. I type in relevant articles from time to time to generate
discussion.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:25:12 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
Message-ID:

In message <199607290313.UAA26072@serbia.it.earthlink.net, zbobz

SPIRITUALITY, RELIGION, AND PHILOSOPHY

No one in her right mind would write on this subject here.

So you promptly went ahead and did so (just as we cannot help doing),
funny that,
we must all be in our "wrong" minds or at the least in the ones labelled
"silly",

perhaps it is what you get when you dump sensitive human creatures able
to conceive of choice, perfection, beauty and "heaven" onto this planet,
apparently without so much as a by your leave...........

Robert has always found it odd that since we (he?: Fiona does not get
nearly so wound up by this, nor even by fs) are so obsessed by freedom
and choice, there was not much of it going about when he was born.

So it was he formed his opinion that he had accidentally dropped onto
this planet by mistake (he was really meant for the one where no-one
ever gets hurt and you can wear rubber clothing and play with trains all
day and the beings would probably be hermaphrodite).

Anyway zbobz, thanks for your efforts, they will be referred too; and
with a name like that, perhaps you are on the wrong planet too?
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 05:45:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Spirit in philosophy and religion
Message-Id: <199607291245.FAA25116@netcom20.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1428

zbobz wrote


No one in her right mind would write on this subject here.

True. And a good thing, too.

It's far too important a subject to entrust to 'right minds.'

[etc.]

Is spirituality a turn off?

I'm glad you've asked. I said it was, and ended up as
Dee's Tantric archives-but-no-sex slave for the duration.
Duration of what I'm not sure.

But thank you for the post, zbobz

There have been some good threads lately leading up to
your essay (some of them written by you- hey! I do that, too).



In case anyone cares, about half of my huge old mulberrry
tree was weakened by a storm over the weekend and overnight
gracefully fell to the ground and buried my truck, carefully
placing the really big branches to make sure I never get out,
which is kinda neat, a sort of Gaia Vindex metaphor or something.
There goes my connect time, too. ;9

Oh: the Forsythes are wrong: zbobz is not from another planet.
S/he (?) is from France.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:57:26 +0000
From: 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Hi
Message-ID: <6EC52600DB5@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk

Hi,

I just joined this mailing list. Are any of the WOMEN on this list located
in Great Britain ?

Tom

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:04:48 +0200
From: silverheart
To: femsuprem@renaissoft.com
Subject: [Mailena@aol.com: Re: Help and Femuscle]
Message-ID:

I'm forwarding this message from Mailena which was clearly
intended for the list. - silverheart

---

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:09:58 -0400
From: Mailena@aol.com
Message-ID: <960728010957_247263293@emout19.mail.aol.com
To: simstim@math.uio.no
Subject: Re: Help and Femuscle

In a message dated 96-07-27 07:54:41 EDT, you write:

<< Daily Mail July 22nd - reported by Jane Gordon - based on
research by Dr Robert McHenry, of the Oxford Psychologists
Press.

Quote : Todays young women are not only physically more
masculine - taller and wider - they are also becoming more
like men in personality too. Young women are now more
aggressive, more arrogant -


Does anyone know of where to find the full text for the above quote?
I am building a web site on this and would like to know!

Mailena

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:01:31 +0200
From: silverheart
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Aggression and arrogance,
Message-ID:

like men in personality too. Young women are now more
aggressive, more arrogant -

Great! Fewer victims, less harassment, less rape etc.

With an all around increased level of aggression and
arrogance there will most likely be more victims,

I disagree. Aggression -- not to be confused with violence --
means that a person will stand up for herself. Most bullies
are cowards who will back off from people who are not afraid
to speak up; or if necessary, hit back.

If now only the men could become more like the women too!

That would be a better way to go.

Since gender stereotypes tend to suppress natural
aggressiveness in women, and increase or create artificial
aggressiveness in men, both ways are necessary -- they are
both constitutive means to the same end.

silverheart




femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
thank you
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: A new subject
Re: The FS List (fwd)
Re: Flaming (??)
Toadies
Re: Toadies
Re: Flaming (??)
Various and Sundry Posts
Anorexia Nervosa and Bulimia: More Reliable Information
Re: Flaming (??)
so sorry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:17:52 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID: <31F6AF20.7097@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

excuse me I did not say all men...I said many men....way too many
men..is exactly what I said....

Ray Jones wrote:

You're guilty of the same thing (in reverse) of what you're accusing
men of.
You're blaming anorexia, pregnancy, etc. on men. Except in the case of
rape,
"It takes two to Tango".

I repeat I DID NOT SAY ALL MENI SAID MANY MENTOO MANY MEN


First: "All men do not have the attitudes you accuse us of".

SOURCE: Me since I don't have that attitude and know others who
don't either. If I like a person, I like them no matter what
they look like.

I REPEAT I DID NOT SAY ALL MENI SAID MANY MEN.





Third: Do you think men are under any less pressure to be desirable? Women
have criteria as well. To paraphrase one woman on this list, "I won't BED
any man who is short, fat, balding, under-endowed, etc."

SORCERESS WAS MAKING A JOKE...A JOKE..throwing the stereotype we live
with all the time back at ya...and it worked...you did not take it very
well did you.....

men are in control of the advertising and the bucks....when we get equal
power we will take equal blame...
To blame them on men's attitudes or anything else is ludricous.

MANY MEN
I don't argue that SOME men's attitudes couldn't use "adjusting", but so
could SOME women's.

Fourth: Your statement that pregnancy shouldn't be blamed on women because
"she said she was on the pill" is ludricous. If she said she was "on the
pill", who SHOULD be blamed? Certainly not the man by himself. After all,
"No woman would tell such a lie would they?"

I DID NOT BLAME THE MAN HIMSELFi simply asked him to take some
responsibility for his reproductive life.



SHE..again blaming the women//
she should have insisted on his
using a condom.

to make a
"blanket statment" including all men is just as unfair.

I REPEAT...I never said ALL MEN...

and finally dear boy, just because you say...
It just "ain't" so.
does not mean it isn't so...the day when you declare the horizon is
green even when I know it is blue and defer to you and say ... oh yes,
it is green .. are done..gone...it is your opinion....and I as
woman..dare today to have an opinion of my own.

Only I really would appreciate your reading what I say before you accuse
of things I have not said....What a day...
Mr. Ray Jones...a brand new day.
Patricia
************************************************************************

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:26:02 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: thank you
Message-ID: <31F6B109.323@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fiona and Robert...wonderful idea changing the subject...
wonderful, wonderful, wonder-FULL
Patricia


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:41:35 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Patricia wrote:

Third: Do you think men are under any less pressure to be desirable? Women
have criteria as well. To paraphrase one woman on this list, "I won't BED
any man who is short, fat, balding, under-endowed, etc."

SORCERESS WAS MAKING A JOKE...A JOKE..throwing the stereotype we live
with all the time back at ya...and it worked...you did not take it very
well did you.....


It was after the fact that we found out that this was a joke. To someone
who is short, fat, balding, under-endowed, this is not a joke. Something
like this is not my idea of a joke. Blonde jokes are not my idea of jokes.
I do not make jokes that make fun of physical appearance. Throwing a
stereotype "back at ya" makes you just as guilty as the person with the
original stereotype. Two wrongs don't make a right. You should lead by
example .... and the cliches go on and on ... too bad they're just cliches.


Peter (who also has been the butt of insensitive "humorous" remarks.)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A new subject
Message-Id: <199607242139.OAA29993@netcom7.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5180

The Forsythes gave a fine reprise of what it is we talk about
here, omitted for brevity only.

And then reintroduced sexuality as a core theme in the FS discussion:

It goes back to the nature of male orgasm as we flagged up in looking at
Genesis.
;;; ;;; ;;;

If therefore a pair are to derive as much
pleasure from sex as possible the man needs training in order to last as
long as possible ;;; ;;; ;;;
This change is a factor of
birth control converting sex from primarily pro-creational to a
primarily (?what do folk think here?) pleasurable experience.

I would say the primary modern social / political / cultural
value of sex (including post-phallic, woman-centered sex) is
bonding. I'm not at all sure that equals pleasure, especially
for the man. It is (or can be) more political or mythic theater
than anything else.

Training a
male to prolong his sexual activity certainly does not feature on
typical male growing up curricula so where is he to learn this
technique? Is this education of the male a major task for fem-
supremicists and where is it done? Does anyone know of (serious not
fantasy) programmes to do this ,,, ?

Of course: Tantra.

(Tantra here meaning any form of an ascetic practice which stresses
erotic tension over gratification, especially for the male, and the
practical effect of which is to subsume the peripheral male energy
into the central Female energy. Whew! ;d )

I am both amazed and disappointed at how little attention
this subject gets in this forum, when it seems to me to be almost
central to any discussion of FS sexuality. Now, 'Tantra' as used
by most Westerners is pretty watered down (to the point we could
almost call it 'Neo-Tantra' or less charitably 'Tantra Lite') but
even so well worth the investigation (which I am only just beginning).

(There are many Tantric sources online and off and a =lot= of
people are investigating or becoming adepts.)

Home-grown versions of Tantra have developed or at least been
suggested in the West in some very odd places, notably among Gnostic
Christians, in the Medieval erotic ideal ('Chivalry') and by such
mystics as St Theresa of Avila. So while classic Tantra may have
strayed very far from its Vedi/Hindu and Buddhist roots, it has
great not to say central implications for the unfolding FS vision(s).

The fact that spirituality is such a turn-off for some here has
probably inhibited serious discussion of Tantra, which is our loss.
(Why should I flame just one person when I can flame all my friends?)
Some women who were very interested in Tantra and erotic asceticism
in general (Holly, Iris, Robin) have left the list long ago. But
there are I hope enough of us here to perhaps give the Forsythes
some answers.

The SMC (which I respect as a serious organization- over to you,
Laura) I know understands the importance of Tantric practice and
the Vedic myths connected with it. The recent introduction of the
Kali / Shiva myth(s) as a possible starting point for FS inquiry
was very encouraging, and I hope we can get back to it. If pursued,
it will lead directly to the Forsythe's issues.

It seems to us that you could argue about the political aspects of fs a
great deal but that the sexual aspect ought to offer couples a wonderful
prospect for both partners, without necessarily requiring a particular
set political agenda, nor even without going into the extremes of a
domme relationship (for those who enjoy such servitude (and it can
appeal to Robert) wonderful, have fun).

Not flaming, and with respect to all here who are or have been
married, but isn't this about more than just heterosexual couples?
Just asking, with a hint that perhaps there are other arrangements
that FS discusssion ought to consider. (My own _oikos_ consists of
a loose gaggle / guild / community of mostly women, largely but
not exclusively Lesbian, some as couples, with me as the hole in
the donut and in some places extending to online. Wilma's manifestly
FS household -not hers exactly, Femina's- is F/fff/m.) This is just
a small plea for recognition of other than the F/m model.

Also I would argue that sex and politcs are intimately connected,
just as are sex and the sacred. Politics is ultimately a mating
dance, sez I (with no sources whatsoever).

Additionally once a man is trained to
hand his orgasm to his lady, a real control to prevent him misbehaving
outside the relationship can be established.

Absolutely. And socially desireable and ecologically necessary.

Does any of this ring bells out there?

Like cathedrals and temples full. And gongs, and rattles and drums.

Wonderful post, F&r: thank you! :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:42:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Re: The FS List (fwd)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends:

Since many of you have inquired about Tracey, I sent her a line
voicing your thoughts. Parts of her reply are reprinted here.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 16:59:32 +1200
From: Tracey
To: Barry Emerson Wright
Subject: Re: The FS List

Barry - you may answer on my behalf re my whereabouts. It's not that I don't
want to be subscribed to the list, it's because of my locality problems and
posts being bumped off. Please tell them that through yourself and one other
subscriber who I email privately regularly, does keep me up to date on some of
the issues discussed on the list.

Post my email address if you like too Barry, it would be nice to hear from some
who contribute to fem-supremacy. And I would appreciate you keeping me
informed of any information that I may find interesting that has been posted to
the list.

Oh, here's some interesting tidbits that you may want to include: Most of NZ
businesses will be run by women by the year 2000. It appears that women in NZ
want to own their own businesses and are becoming quite successful because of
their management techniques. Also NZ was the first place in the world that
gave women the vote, thanks to Kate Shepperd. Kate is also portraited on our
$10 note.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

I have never been so emotionally disturbed and hurt as when I
awoke this morning and read my mail. One posting in particular was like
an arrow through my heart.

dismissal of my months of ceaseless toadying and his assumption of Alpha
Toady status on the List. Still, he may have a point, since my shameless
attempts with Patricia were met with such scorn by many on this group.
Come to think of it, previous tries such as "Dee-Ann, you sure are a
cutie-pie! Hubba-hubba!" and "Laura, you write pretty good for a girl"
haven't had much success either. So I will simply sit at the feet of the
master and attempt to absorb his pearls of servile wisdom. This
empty flattery toward a male will also display that I'm an EOG (Equal
Opportunity Groveller).
Actually, the reason I'm attempting to ingratiate myself with the
women on this list is that I need some female input for the short story
"Obsequious Suckups In Bondage" which I'm writing for the
alt.perverted.toadies newsgroup. You won't want to miss it!

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 15:55:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Toadies
Message-Id: <199607242255.PAA06258@netcom7.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 386

Yo Barry!

Molodets!

:D :D :D

c.s.
aka Toady Went A'Courtin'

(and with thanks for the Tracey update)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:03:37 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Toadies
Message-ID: <31F6D5F9.78FB@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and hugs to both of you....found smile on my face .. after day that has
left me exhausted, and worn out....it is sweeties like you that make me
always hedge my bets..and say..."most men" rather than "all men" ..cause
at some hours of some days...I would love to hate you all..., but you
save your gender from that and I appreciate it, because at most hours of
most days...i like having a man around the house.
Patricia

Coyote Sings wrote:

Yo Barry!

Molodets!

:D :D :D

c.s.
aka Toady Went A'Courtin'

(and with thanks for the Tracey update)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:34:08 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

kiss my post menepausal wet one....the source is the internet
they don't have pages..etc...go to search engine and type in name of
site...
Patricia

then give un the internet address.Must be REAL hard.CLUE-usually starts
with http://
if you can't source your quotes then don't bother putting them on this
forum and if you do, then expect ridicule.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:03:14 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Various and Sundry Posts
Message-ID: <31F5B8A8.6675@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

So much to comment on! I'll be very brief and concise:

1. Tony-come on guy, lighten up! Lay off the caffeine, you know, coke,
coffee, even chocolate. Before you respond to a post, make sure you
haven't had any mountain dew OK? Whew, you obviously don't even realize
how your coming across. A little sarcasm, passion, even obnoxiousness is
usually tolerated here, and some even appreciate that biting little
"edge" some of us show, but we draw the line when it comes to RAGE. You
lost it a little there buddy, and none on this list can make a fool out
of you but yourself. Now, this is a great opportunity for you to show
some maturity, and a willingness to grow by showing your more charming
side which I'm sure you have. When you openly share ideas and get shot
down it can seem humiliating to us high testocerone types, but don't feel
that way. Your among friends. Give it another shot, we are interested
in your ideas, just lighten up on the rage and you'll have our undivided
attention.

2. Matt-your like Tony-light. Why so angry? Patricia's' comments were not
about naming statistics, they were out of concern for the women who get
sick and those who die over false standards of beauty. Aren't you
quibbling over numbers and missing the bigger point? a legalistic
argument about statistics is not the issue. "The truth" is often
subjective unless your a perfectionist, or someone who just likes to
prove people wrong to win an argument for argument sake. BTW if it walks
like a flame, talks like a flame, and reads like a flame.....IT'S A
FLAME! Rage is such a macho thing to do, YAWN, BORING.

3. Dee Ann-You were absolutely right, reasoned and moderate in your
response to Tony. You warned him and gave him an opportunity to retreat
gracefully. I for one was very impressed with the way you handled it.
Last I heard your not paid too much (loll) to do the great job you do. On
your posts, ditto. Nice spirit, courteous definitely good Karma!

4. Patricia-You really get em goin don't ya! How do you always bring the
"best" (lol) out of my species? You have a very passionate way of making
your points and I guess some of you guys need to learn to listen
carefully to the underlying meaning before they go nuts! If Tony can be a
little more civil, I for one would love to read both your posts on a
variety of subjects. Like me your often wrong but never in doubt! It's
a typical flaw that passionate intellectuals have. That's one of your
most endearing qualities. However, I think Ray Jones may have got ya in
his last post! He made some very good points. Stereotypes often bite
those who deserve it least. I'm already looking forward to your answer.
Your also quite forgiving. Even when insulted, and after you give as
good as you got, you don't hold grudges. Keep stirring the pot, nobodies
BORED!

5. Ray Jones-Good post. Patricia will be thinking about that one. You
said it as well as anyone could.

6. Chase-No apology necessary your posts were right on the money. You
saved me a lot of time by saying what you said, otherwise I wouldn't have
been able to not say the same things. Power, and articulated forcefully.
Right on man!

7.Fiona and Robert:
Practically speaking we have found that the way the control is best
exercised often sees the lady riding the man but we would appreciate any
comment from folk who feel that even in a submissive (i.e., underneath)
physical position, a woman can still control a man.

Believe me Robert, a woman can be in the underneath position and still
control a man. MY wife is in total control at all times, and she
controls EVERYTHING. The Creator of our species obviously intended for
men to serve woman since he endowed them with the ability to have
multiple orgasms and continue on in lovemaking, and designed men to have
one huge volcanic eruption and then become exhausted and totally
submissive. As a practical matter it makes sense for the man to spend a
long time pleasuring her, saving his powerful offering of love until the
end. Men don't need training as much as they need an unselfish heart.
If your not just concerned with your own pleasure, you'll give to your
partner. Debora can control my every move from the bottom, even to the
extent of when to accept that offering of love. It's a matter of power.
I have a huge amount of it. She just has more that's all! And I love
it! In the Karma Sutra, they have something called the mares trick. The
stallion is often rough and even brutal when chasing her down, but once
he has her, she can lock him in so he is powerless to move. He can't get
free unless SHE lets him. My wife has known that one for years! Lol
That's one trick I can live with!

8. Write on pen riders of the net! Write On, Write On!
Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:10:22 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Anorexia Nervosa and Bulimia: More Reliable Information
Message-Id: <199607250310.UAA07557@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

Harrison's "Prinicples of Internal Medicine" is used in all U.S.
Medical Schools and is widely regarded as THE textbook on internal
medicine. It is a tome of almost 2500 pages packed with information
on every coneivable disease. Anthony Fauci, M.D., world-renowned AIDS
researcher at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland,
is one of its six primary co-authors. The 13th edition is the most
current available, and was copyrighted in 1994 by McGraw Hill.

Chapter 74 of Harrison's, authored by Dr. Daniel W. Foster, is entitled
"Anorexia Nervosa and Bulimia", on pages 452-455. According to this
information, the estimate for the prevalence of anorexia nervosa in the
population is from 0.4 to 1.5 per 100,000 population (prevalence in
numbers per 100,000 of a population is the customary method
epidimiologists use to indicate how common a disease is). The
approximate population of the United States, according to most sources,
is 260,000,000. Thus if we are to count units of 100,000 in the U.S.
population, the number of such units would be about 2600 (100,000 into
260 million is 2600). Now, using the low-end number, 0.4, this would
give us 1040 people in the U.S. suffering from anorexia nervosa (this
0.4 figure is NOT a percentage, but an absolute number per 100,000
people; if it were taken mistakenly as a percentage, the resulting
number of anorexia nervosa sufferers would be even lower, by a
magnitude of 100!)

To be generous (but still reasonable), let's use the high-end number
instead, 1.5 per 100,000 of the population. That's 1.5 times 2600,
which equals 3900 people in this country suffering from anorexia
nervosa. Four thousand people is a far cry from 700,000 people, the
new, revised number proffered by Patricia in her recent posting.

Also, according to this article in Harrison's (see p. 455), the
prognosis of the condition in long-term follow-ups is that about half
of all patients eventually achieve "normal" weight, 20 percent improve
or remain underweight, 20 percent continue anorexic, and 5 percent
become obese, while 6 percent die of causes related directly to the
anorexia. I know, I know, that adds up to 101 percent -- only because
the 50 percent and 20 percent figures are approximate, while the six
percent mortality figure is an accepted, established (and apparently
stable) known fact.

So... If 6 percent of anorexia nervosa sufferers die (of causes
related to their condition), and we take the high-end figure above that
about 4000 people in this country at any one time are suffering from
true anorexia nervosa (not other types of anorexia, mind you, such as
those due to cancer and AIDS, which are clinically well-known
conditions but do not fit the profile of the "typical" young female
suffering from societally-induced eating disorder), then 6 percent of
4000 is 240, that's right, two hundred and forty people die ever year
from anorexia nervosa. Again, a far cry from the numbers offered up
by Patricia.

Let's be VERY generous and double that number to include the plethora
of unreported cases that there must certainly be, since we are living
in a sinister, male-dominated society where all of the sicknesses of
women are selectively repressed and covered up. So, let's say 500
people die a year from anorexia nervosa (oh, I forgot to add that
Cecil's textbook of Internal Medicine, another highly respected text,
says that one-tenth of all anorexia nervosa sufferers are MEN AND BOYS
-- but that's beside the point)... Let's say that the number is 500.

Sad, very sad. But it hardly amounts to the pandemic that Patricia
has gotten so restive over. I have never heard of the source Patricia
says she has found her information from; I will look into it. I
wonder who publishes that information, and if the publishers are just
as disgruntled about our "oppressive male society" as so many in this
mailing list, who often seem to condemn and vilify first (like when
psychoanalyzing other people's innocent fantasies) and relegate
intellectually honest discussion of differences to the back burner.

Tony

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:36:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

if you can't source your quotes then don't bother putting them on this
forum and if you do, then expect ridicule.

b3016957:

Your comments are getting less amusing. You do not dictate who
will post to this "forum" and you have obviously not been around long
enough to know that this is a place of peace, not of "ridicule".
Dee-Ann is the one who can decide to ban you, but as of now you are in my
software's variant of "killfile". I no longer choose to listen to your
droolings.

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 00:11:09 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: so sorry
Message-ID: <31F71E0D.5F37@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

i just reread my last post...I don't handle being attacked duck and run
style..in groups (the gang of two).....come at me face to face and I can
deal with it...I am very rattled...anyway...I am so sorry ... I did not
mean to say I would boycott this whole list....I will boycott tony and
matts email...when I see it on my list .. I will delete it before I read
it. I did nothing to deserve to be treated so rudely...and I don't need
to participate in my own brutalization by continuing to read there
posts. I value all of you too much to stop participating with
exchanging ideas. sorry for allowing myself to become so excabobulated
(?)
and i am left this a.m...with these feelings and the pain these feelings
reflect....

If the message is to wear us down...
so we are afraid to speak because we might make a mistake and be
attacked brutishly and unfairly and unreasonably..
When and if we try
and are repeatedly humiliated and degraded for the trying..
because we have not done it according to some proscribed male dominance
and privilege form...
we learn to shut up....
and they accept our silence as proof of their truth...
when nothing...nothing could be farther from it....
my lips are sealed to them.
Patricia

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 161

Today's Topics:
Re: "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Flaming (??)
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Flaming (??)
Re: Flaming (??)
Re: "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"
Re: Flaming (??)
my last word on this
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Flaming (??)
Re: Women, Physical Types, & flame

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 06:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"
Message-Id: <199607241348.GAA21390@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Matt wrote:
dear dee-ann: I don't consider tony's letter to be a flame.It is
objective whereas the quote of 100 000 deaths a year is most probably A
LIE.Tony could have said the same thing with the most polite language
possible and no-one would have got upset.Thing is, he spoke the truth(or my
version of it anyway).when an individual writes a letter that is a
substantial personal attack against another individual with no foundation
or serious content but to aggrevate and flame that person, then THAT is
what is known as A FLAME.But for Tony to disagree most vehmently and simply
point out the bloody obvious(I could have said most obvious instead)does
not = Flame.What are the rules for this group when people plant little
seeds of propaganda and disinformation?To a small degree the comparison
with Gobbels was valid.

Matt -

Sorry, but Tony -did- flame. As you say, "a substantial personal attack"
is a flame. Tony's calling Patricia a liar and Barry a toady is most
certainly a substantial personal attack. He was in-your-face personal in
his reply to the point of being obnoxious. In fact, he was obnoxious
enough that if he were to have said the same things to someone when he
-was- face to face, he'd be likely to find himself physically assaulted.

" A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"-Gobbels.
"100 000 young women a year die from these diseases"-we all know who.PROVE
IT!SOURCE AND REFERENCE YOUR 'QUOTES'.Otherwise the comparison with Gobbels
seems valid.

Even -if- her statistic is incorrect, it doesn't mean she's a liar; there's
a -lot- of spurious statistics published. Believing someone else's misin-
formation doesn't make a person a liar, or a Gobbels. An' personally, I'd
find your comparison to Gobbels pretty insulting....

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:53:22 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID: <31F65502.2F01@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Your right Tony .. I was wrong about the 100,000 figure for women who
die from anorexia and bulimia .. for anorexia alone the figure is
700,000 ... and heres the source...
I am sorry you are so defensive tony and for whatever problem you have
that makes you such a misoginist, (no wonder men die on average seven
years before us...they should stop arguing with superior intelligence)
but it is no excuse for you brutish behavior here....
Patricia

Source:
InsideMEDICINE Report
15 to 20 abstracts (summaries) of late-breaking research on
ANOREXIA NERVOSA:

7 million women
aged 15 to 35 have the eating disorder anorexia nervosa

Source:
1996 Indiana University - The Center for Adolescent Studies
While 10% of anorexics die, the other 90% of cases result in health
problems
ranging from weakened bones to heart disease. Anorexia can also
cause severe
depression which can lead to suicide


P.S. Patricia, GIMME THAT CITATION!!!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:57:40 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-ID: <31F65604.4908@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

you could have elicited the answer to your question...with a
simple...you showed not source for you 100,000 figure and I will not
accept it until you do...the rest was unneccesary and revealed a level
of anger that is, quite franly, frightening.
Patricia

Tony wrote:

AN OPEN LETTER TO DEE-ANN:

This may sound like a naive question to you, but what is flaming? I
use the internet ONLY as a means of communication. It is not a hobby
for me, and I have not bothered to immerse myself in all the
terminology that is used. I hear this term "flaming" all the time,
and I BELIEVE it has something to do with using curse-words or "nasty"
language; but perhaps the definition is a subtler one than that. In
any case, please let me know so I can avoid doing it!

If "flaming" simply means sticking up for oneself and one's own ideas
even if they are unpopular, then I guess I am guilty! Is one person's
"flaming" another person's right to self-defense? Is the
"femsupremacy" mailing list really just a controlled forum in which
people are allowed to express themselves all they want ONLY TO THE
POINT that what they say doesn't step on the toes of one of the women
who seem to pull the strings in the group?

If you could re-post or publicize a Frequently Asked Questions summary
or set of instructions for this mail list, I would be grateful!
Sometimes I feel I am being flamed here, but I guess my skin is thicker
than the others' and I can take it better, so I don't complain.

My own approach to the internet is purely a practical one. I resist
thinking of it as a hobby. I take little interest in what I consider
the "cutesy" terminology that has been promoted among those who use the
"Net". I think all this may merely a method or tool of the
established internet users who have power here (like those who control
networks, e-mail servers, mailing lists, bulletin boards, "IRC's",
etc.) to enforce their own opinions upon newer users, the people whom
they often (condescendingly) refer to as "newbies". Is this true?

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:56:16 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-ID:

FEThe same goes for men who feel that way about women. I have no such
FEcriteria. My only criteria is the "inner woman". The "outer woman" while
FEnice is just that. (a shell) You've got to get rid of the "rind" or the
FE"peel" before you find what truly counts.

Thank you for an eloquent and gracious answer. Yes,
it was "tongue-in-cheek."
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:03:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-Id: <199607241403.HAA22468@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tony wrote:
If "flaming" simply means sticking up for oneself and one's own ideas
even if they are unpopular, then I guess I am guilty! Is one person's
"flaming" another person's right to self-defense? Is the
"femsupremacy" mailing list really just a controlled forum in which
people are allowed to express themselves all they want ONLY TO THE
POINT that what they say doesn't step on the toes of one of the women
who seem to pull the strings in the group?

You didn't stick up for yourself - in fact, my thin-skinned unfriend,
you weren't being attacked. People replied to your posts, and expressed
disagreement with your ideas. Quite a difference - especially since I
doubt if I'm the only one who worked to phrase things in such a manner
that it wouldn't read like an attack on you. "Sticking up for yourself"
doesn't mean being insulting, rude, and derisive, as you were to both
Barry and Patricia (and in this letter, to everyone else on the list).

If you could re-post or publicize a Frequently Asked Questions summary
or set of instructions for this mail list, I would be grateful!
Sometimes I feel I am being flamed here, but I guess my skin is thicker
than the others' and I can take it better, so I don't complain.

Funny - I'm getting the expression your skin is pretty thin, because you
took people's disagreeing with your thoughts / pointing out how common
fantasies can be harmful as a personal attack. (Note: Saying that it
was your head that was thick, not your skin, would just barely begin to
verge on a flame of you personally. But Dee-Ann doesn't want flames
here, so no one'll say that, I'm sure.)

This may sound like a naive question to you, but what is flaming? I
use the internet ONLY as a means of communication. It is not a hobby
for me, and I have not bothered to immerse myself in all the
terminology that is used. I hear this term "flaming" all the time,
[....]
My own approach to the internet is purely a practical one. I resist
thinking of it as a hobby. I take little interest in what I consider
the "cutesy" terminology that has been promoted among those who use the
"Net".

Ah.... So, the rest of us are just hobbyists, eh, without practicality
or seriousness of intent? Pretty condescending of you to imply such.
And you can't be bothered to immerse yourself in the terminology, but you
say you use it as a form of communication? Most people think communication
involves using a common language, as well as common protocols for what
constitutes polite discourse. An' frankly, well, I don't think using the
net for discussing your sexual fantasies is all -that- practical a use of
communications.

I think all this may merely a method or tool of the
established internet users who have power here (like those who control
networks, e-mail servers, mailing lists, bulletin boards, "IRC's",
etc.) to enforce their own opinions upon newer users, the people whom
they often (condescendingly) refer to as "newbies". Is this true?

Oh yes, it's true. And hostesses and hosts at cocktail parties who ask
their guests to behave civilly, and eject those who exhibit boorish be-
havior (such as you've done here), are just flaunting their power and
enforcing their opinions.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:07:52 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-ID: <31F65868.6EA4@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Your accusation of my being a liar is as far from the truth as one can
get. I have lost friends and made many enemies..for my strong
commitment to the truth..and would do so again. The truth shall set us
free. your abusive behavior is what keeps us (including yourself) far
from free.
Not that you deserve an explanation, but I have my Masters in Public
Administration. Statistics are my business. I wish it were not true
that so many women are so devastatingly affected by what they percieve
they must look like to have a man like them. but you are the proof of
the pudding are you not...that what they die for..is not really a
fantasy in their mind...but a fantasy in yours.
Patricia


Noble wrote:

you could have elicited the answer to your question...with a
simple...you showed not source for you 100,000 figure and I will not
accept it until you do...the rest was unneccesary and revealed a level
of anger that is, quite franly, frightening.
Patricia

Tony wrote:

AN OPEN LETTER TO DEE-ANN:

This may sound like a naive question to you, but what is flaming? I
use the internet ONLY as a means of communication. It is not a hobby
for me, and I have not bothered to immerse myself in all the
terminology that is used. I hear this term "flaming" all the time,
and I BELIEVE it has something to do with using curse-words or "nasty"
language; but perhaps the definition is a subtler one than that. In
any case, please let me know so I can avoid doing it!

If "flaming" simply means sticking up for oneself and one's own ideas
even if they are unpopular, then I guess I am guilty! Is one person's
"flaming" another person's right to self-defense? Is the
"femsupremacy" mailing list really just a controlled forum in which
people are allowed to express themselves all they want ONLY TO THE
POINT that what they say doesn't step on the toes of one of the women
who seem to pull the strings in the group?

If you could re-post or publicize a Frequently Asked Questions summary
or set of instructions for this mail list, I would be grateful!
Sometimes I feel I am being flamed here, but I guess my skin is thicker
than the others' and I can take it better, so I don't complain.

My own approach to the internet is purely a practical one. I resist
thinking of it as a hobby. I take little interest in what I consider
the "cutesy" terminology that has been promoted among those who use the
"Net". I think all this may merely a method or tool of the
established internet users who have power here (like those who control
networks, e-mail servers, mailing lists, bulletin boards, "IRC's",
etc.) to enforce their own opinions upon newer users, the people whom
they often (condescendingly) refer to as "newbies". Is this true?

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 00:16:34 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Chase-points taken.Perhaps Tony should have wrote misguided, misinformed
etc.Whatever the case the whole debate arises phoneix like from the ashes
of Tonys letter.Perhaps Tont felt STRONGLY about the subject of someone
writing what is a blatant lie.That's L-I-E.Perhaps he was more aggrevated
by other people apparently blindly accepting what appears to be a quote
from probably a tabloid magazine at best, and in an academic rage proceeded
to "most viciously flame" patricia and barry by calling patricia a liar and
barry a toady.What would you call someone who has at best blind faith like
barry?Gullible?And perhaps patricia was misinformed.
But when you use a quote to support your argument then by and large
you are responsible for the validity of that quote.If I wrote: there are
100 million people in Fiji,from a tabloid magazine and actully believed it
and tried to impress this fact upon other people well I should bear some
responsibility for it.So Patricia used this fact to support her argument.At
best she was naive.at worst she could be called a liar(sorry!).Simple as
that.Barry could be called gullible at best and a suck-up at worst.Perhaps
tony could have been more subtle.But for people to say tony shouldn't say
things like this because it's not what a true believer in femsupremacy
would say is taking it to the extreme a little bit.(eg-Don't criticise-it's
not right to do so.)
In summary people who post ridiculous little stats like the 100 000 a year
deserve gentle guidence to see the error of their ways or a dressing down.
with respect for patricia's opinions but not her footnoting,
Matt.
p.s I'm sure we've got better things to talk about anyhow.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:08:46 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-ID:

FEAN OPEN LETTER TO DEE-ANN:

FEThis may sound like a naive question to you, but what is flaming? I
FEuse the internet ONLY as a means of communication. It is not a hobby

"Flaming" is the rude name-calling that you did in
your last post. Not necessary when among intelligent
adults who understand a cogent argument. When I realized
what you were doing, I simply deleted it. I find your
words offensive, and the best way to deal with that
is to ignore it. You have invalidated yourself by
"flaming" so verbosely.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:15:59 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: my last word on this
Message-ID: <31F65A4F.6433@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and Tony...even if it were only one woman who was dying from the
attitude that the only good woman or True Amazon superior woman is a
thin and/or athletic woman..that would be too much for me.

If I had to chose between one womans life and your attitude...your
attitude would have to go.
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 00:25:04 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

patricia wrote:
whatever problem you have
that makes you such a misoginist,(<<<***flaming?) (no wonder men die on
average seven
years before us...they should stop arguing with superior intelligence)
but it is no excuse for you brutish behavior here(***are you implying that
tony is a brute?gee,sounds like a flame....)
Patricia

Source:
InsideMEDICINE Report(****WHAT ABOUT PAGE NUMBER,DATE,PLACE OF PUBLICATION
AND AUTHOR/S?-ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FIND THE LUCKY PAGE NUMBER AND EDITION
ALL BY OURSELVES?YOUR ABILITY TO FIND THESE WONDERFUL QUOTES COUPLED WITH
AN INABILITY TO PROVIDE FOOTNOTES SUGGESTS SOMETHING,BETTER NOT SAY IT,I
MIGHT BE FLAMING!)
15 to 20 abstracts (summaries) of late-breaking research on
ANOREXIA NERVOSA:

7 million women
aged 15 to 35 have the eating disorder anorexia nervosa

Source:
1996 Indiana University (***FOOTNOTES,REFERENCES????)- The Center for
Adolescent Studies
While 10% of anorexics die, the other 90% of cases result in health
problems
ranging from weakened bones to heart disease. Anorexia can also
cause severe
depression which can lead to suicide


bye the way, only 1 women in the whole wide world died from anorexia last year.
Source: Oxford university .
Matt.
p.s Bostwana is the richest country in the world.
source: lichtenstein times,1995.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 00:28:40 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Flaming (??)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

patricia wrote:


Your accusation of my being a liar is as far from the truth as one can
get. I have lost friends and made many enemies..for my strong
commitment to the truth..and would do so again. The truth shall set us
free. your abusive behavior is what keeps us (including yourself) far
from free.
Not that you deserve an explanation, but I have my Masters in Public
Administration. Statistics are my business. I wish it were not true
that so many women are so devastatingly affected by what they percieve
they must look like to have a man like them. but you are the proof of
the pudding are you not...that what they die for..is not really a
fantasy in their mind...but a fantasy in yours.
Patricia


Then give us the footnotes.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:29:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women, Physical Types, & flame
Message-Id: <199607241429.HAA24743@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tony snarled:
WOW!! A Politically Correct Bullshit Alert AND an Obsequious Toady
alert BOTH in the same posting! Patricia's attempt to pull a fast one

*Wheeep! Wheeep! Incoming obnoxiousness alert!*

Maybe a significant number of "young women" do die every year from
starvation or clinical "wasting syndrome" secondary to cancer, AIDS,
autoimmune diseases, or other systemic diseases. Maybe. But with
medical technology as advanced as exists in every U.S. hospital today,
with enteric feeding tubes and Total Parenteral Nutrition, it is very
unlikely that "wasting" patients are allowed to reach that stage of
starvation.

Up in backwoods Maine, a girl was was a next door neighbor died of plain
simple uncomplicated anorexia / bulemia. People don't notice it until
it's too late, especially since kids today eat their meals in various
environments, making it very easy to say at home "I'm not hungry, I ate
a big lunch" and at school, well, nobody's really eating much of that
good food. Add that dieting is pretty much an accepted part of life,
and that people with eating disorders will sometimes eat and then go
off and vomit the food up where no one knows, and it's -real- easy for
things to go far enough to cause serious medical problems. An' you
can't very well keep an anorexic teenager in the hospital constantly.

And as for Wright, I have no respect for this person, an obvious toady
who has compounded your attempt at a slick ruse ... If there were
Olympic Gold Medals in Deception, you would sweep the event.

See this, Tony? This is called 'flaming' - making a personal, insulting,
obnoxious attack on someone who hadn't said or done anything to warrant
such behavior from you.

I have been berated here for being honest about my own fantasies and
desires. Great. I am glad there are so many open-minded people on
this mailing list, open-minded people representing so many different
countries and cultures.

You haven't been berated here, not previously. People pointed out that
thrusting your fantasies upon people in this forum wasn't totally aprop-
riate, and pointed out problems with your fantasies of women evolving
into muscular amazon types. Glad you're so mature you can keep from
getting your feelings hurt when someone disagrees with your ideas.

Also, I am NOT (emphatically N-O-T) holding up THIN as an ideal. I
said (and I will repeat it) ATHLETIC...
I for one do NOT find these women attractive,
and do NOT wish that young women would emulate them. I find women
like Gabrielle Reece attractive.

Will you never get it through your head that the denizens of this forum
aren't particular interested in what or whom you do or do not find
attractive? (This means, a lot of the regulars don't want to hear it.)

what? That is beside the point. The REAL point here is that she is
a role model for the ultra-competitive, super-strong woman athlete.

Yep, she's a role model. Not necessarily a role model for female
supremacists, but for young women who want to be athletic. More to the
point, I think, is she's a role model for all the swarms of young women
who want you to find them sexually attractive. (<-- sarcasm) At least,
that seems to be the major reason you bring her up on here.

Before you start on another round of skewering me with your phony
statistics and slick attempts to con the readers of this mailing list

Aren't you happy? I'm not using -any- statistics in this letter. *beam*

correct milieu, I don't care if you think I'm a fool; you're fools
yourselves and you have shown it nicely here!) -- before you start on

Yep, insulting most of the people here. Ver' nice. I'm going to go out
on a limb and decide that your insults are sufficient grounds for a small
reply in same. -I- don't think you're a fool. I just think you're a rude
obnoxious self-centered person who seems to think that this maillist is a
place to unload his fantasies and expects to be cuddled and patted on the
back and told "Good boy!" for it. This list isn't all about you, it isn't
about sexual fantasies, and it isn't about appearance.

Tony (the One and Only)

Modest too.

P.S. Patricia, GIMME THAT CITATION!!!

An' bossy. Tony, next time you join a mail list, -read- the letter of
introduction, try learning what is or isn't accepted there, because it's
a lot like joining a small community, and try not to go around insulting
those who are well liked, respected members of that community.

(Sorry, Dee-Ann.....)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 159

Today's Topics:
Re: Women and physical type
Busy or Quiet
Re: The Personal and the Collective
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Woman athlete, moslem countries
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Your Recent Posts
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:26:07 -0700
From: rem
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-ID: <31F5436F.589A@interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:

Still, there are certain realities: men have their requirements, and they
need their requirements met or they can't get their dicks up. The older a
guy gets, the more hands on attention he needs, and the more his fetishes
matter. Young guys have so much juice that they aren't as picky, but they
are also less likely to be interesting, or ready for a depth relationship.
Of course that doesn't matter if all you want is sex.

Young guys could use a little of that hands on attention. Rather these
lives and experience between fifteen and twenty are a potential threat
and likely abandoned out of neccessity for otherwise palpable pursuits. I
was aware of the full horror of the world and sex is about all I wasn't
getting, thank-you. Youth is quickly corrupted but when it does escape
into the collective surely you can see everything we are is involved and
need only let it in. Thus, to quote Northrop Frye, education is the
only true ministry. And the only ministry worth att . . . nevermind.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:16:15 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Busy or Quiet
Message-ID: <31F524FF.6E9@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Everyone--

I agree with Barry on this one. I've been busy myself what with car
troubles and I'm packing to move on August 1 into a larger unit in the
same building. Unfortunately, moving is moving whether to the same
building or a different one. My business has been busy as well...

I'm lurking right now, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to respond
eventually. Just real busy right now. Hope everyone is having a
terrific summer...It's been in the 80's/90's in Seattle---It's just too
hot here right now!

Jet

Barry said:

Patricia,

I've been on the list for over a year, and the pattern seems to
be either very still or very busy. Lately we've just been very still, so
I don't think anything is wrong.
Want some action? Just begin a controversial topic of your own,
and watch the messages fly!

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:52:07 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Personal and the Collective
Message-ID: <31F52D67.4B6D@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura and Dee-Ann wrote:

The other way to make a difference is simply by example.
Maybe if enough
people lived like this, the jerks would start to feel like they were
actually in the minority instead of feeling like they owned the
world.

Well said, hear hear! That's another way that the "appreciate diversity"
cry has been perversely misused: as a defense of intolerable people! Being
an asshole is not a legitimate lifestyle choice! There is such a thing as
right and wrong. It is wrong to live in a way that destroys the earth and
robs our children of a viable future! It is right to demonstrate
intolerance of evil!

I agree with both of you... That's what the "Random acts of Kindness"
movement was all about. It seems as if that has lost momentum as well.
It seems that when something is in vogue, everyone is gung ho for it, but
as soon as a lot of people are doing something that actually helps and
it is no longer something that brings them "notice," they stop and go
on to something else that brings them the attention they crave. What they
don't understand is the karma of the situation...

BTW, assholes will
always get the attention they crave because they don't care that the
attention they get is negative...that's how desperate for attention they
are!

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607231956.MAA01937@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5809

Laura Goodwin wrote:

Speaking of physical manifestations of female strength and power, I have
been working on my body and have been making good progress at shaping myself
to look the way I want to, and increase my stamina.
It's true that there is no one right way for a woman to look, but it's also
true that we further the cause by being the best we can be. I admit it bugs
me when I work hard to look good and feel strong and graceful, then somebody
discounts it by saying I've been suckered into trying to fulfill some male
fantasy. That's horseshit, y'know.

It's like the people who try to tell me that I like PVC because a guy
talked me into it. ;) Women never have our own sexuality or ideas,
do we? (major sarcasm alert) There are actually claims that women
don't _have_ fetishes of their own.

I was in pretty good shape a couple of years ago, then I got my modem and
got drawn into the online world. I was so mesmerized, so excited by all
that I could do with my computer that I spent hours everyday and hours each
night emailing, chatting, a reading/posting to newsgroups. I spent a lot of
time sitting whereas in the past I would have filled that time running
around. The pounds crept up on me, and one day I realized that I hated what
was happening to my body, and I knew I'd have to use some major
self-discipline to get it under control.

I used to leave my computer for a few hours to work out and stretch.
Then, I had a series of really bad shoulder problems. I don't know if
the workouts caused them, but since I stopped my shoulders have
behaved. I now go walking instead. I don't do it to "look good,"
actually. I do it to feel good. I don't want to become one with my
computer chair, which is what happens when you work with the suckers
for a living. :) And, I like being able to walk up a steep hill
without gasping for air by the end of it.

[a little deleted]

My husband never said anything unkind to me...he always says I'm beautiful,
no matter how I look. But out and about now, suddenly men are noticing me
again...one fellow fell all over himself to get the door for me at the store
the other day: it was really cute! You know, sex appeal is a great power,
and I personally want all the power of every kind that I can claim!

My husband never really says anything about my weight, unless I'm
complaining about it. Then, he just gives me a reality check (like,
"Ok, if you're so miserable, go on a diet"). :) Or says not to diet
myself to the point where I'd blow away, because he'd be sad. Nice to
know he wanted to marry me for me, ya know? ;)

I used to think I wasn't ugly, but wasn't much to look at. What's
funny is my appearance hasn't changed much in the last year or so, but
I'll actually think "Oh, he's just trying to hit on me" when a guy
comes up to me in real life for no apparant reason. I'd have never
thought that a year ago. Why the change? I'm not sure. Having a
husband and 2 dedicated subs likely helps. :)

Yes, I happen to like being admired. I don't like walking into a social
situation where all the other women outshine me. I like to look as good as
I can: I think it's fun to feel pretty. *I* like looking at men and women
who are dressed up and well-groomed; who have obviously made an effort to be
attractive. I know women in general tend to prefer men who look sharp and
behave well, so it's not just the guys: it's human nature.

I like attention, I confess, but it's funny...I often don't want to be
the total center of attention. It makes me uncomfortable. Anyway,
I'm used to outshining women on the personality/intellectual front.
Growing up in Florida, I found that not having a beachbunny bod made
it a bit difficult to outshine on the physical level. And, anyway,
sometimes it's not the bod, it's understanding what kinds of clothes
look good on it. ;)

You can talk about diversity all you want, and yes, fat women have their
fans, skinny women have their fans, hairy women, tall women, very tiny women
all have their fans. Certainly you should accept yourself and love yourself
as you are, blah, blah, blah BUT I don't want to hear "appreciate diversity"
being used as a euphemism for "excuse laziness". I feel very strongly that
women should excell in every way, each in her own way, but especially in
health and physical ability. We gotta take good care of ourselves! It's
called: "Looking Out For Number One"! Letting yourself go to pot is not
loving yourself.

I think of it more in terms of health. Letting ourselves become total
couch potatos (regardless of gender) is bad for us. I'm certainly not
immune to this problem. :)

I wish all women would seek out some sport or activity and just go for
broke, if nothing else than for the fun of it. If the men like it and would
applaud, great! Do it anyway, even if they try to stop you! That's my
philosophy. :)

Well, I don't think a lot of women will be able to do that until they
can stop working 3 jobs just to keep their kids fed and housed.

I was reading up on this thing called "power yoga." Just the name is
kind of scary. :) The idea is that you work your way up from
beginner yoga classes to power yoga, where folks literally leap from
position to position. It's supposed to be excellent for balance and
stamina. At least with yoga you don't generally need to buy hundreds
of dollars worth of equipment. (Unless there's something I don't know
about it.)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 16:03:15 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Woman athlete, moslem countries
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yeh, but remember that there's a world of difference between Iran and Iraq.
Iran is a very fundamentalist Muslim country while Iraq is one of the most
Westernized Muslim countries. Mr. Hussein makes every pretence of bowing to
Allah, but in reality is a man without God.
Peter

Magnus wrote:
There is a woman competing in shooting in the olympics, but I can't
remember if she was actually from Iran. The Swedish commentators mentioned
it during the opening of the olympics. There was a close-up of her
carrying her country's flag.

There is however another woman from a moslem country competing in some
kind of running. Her life has been threatened according to the reports on
Swedish public service television, since she plans to dress the way other
women competing in this sport do.

Believe the one who carried the flag was from Iraq, but I might've misheard
Iraq for Iran. She's definately a shooter, I believe air rifle but won't
swear to it. Anyone think her carrying the flag means a change for the
better over there, or that it was just meant as PR to improve the country's
image? (Or mebbe they 'let' her carry the flag so none of the men had to
labor at carrying it?)

The runner's name is Hassiba Boulmerka, who unlike the other Algerian 1500
meter runner, had to train in Cuba because the Muslim clerics at home
denounced her for "running with naked legs in front of men." She's con-
sidered to be a favorite for the gold in her event, and in 1991 became the
first Algerian of either sex to win a world championship.

Methinks she's a good role model for either sex, for having the drive to
excel, the courage to continue despite threats, and the brightness of
heart to still love and honor her country, despite the problems women in
her country face. Here's hoping she can win the gold.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 16:14:07 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

LOL. Didn't these two countries almost go to war once over a rugby game?
I'm Canadian. I remember the time I was talking to an Aussie. We had a
great time kidding each other until my daughter asked me where Australia
is. I replied that Australia is an island off the coast of New Zealand. All
of a sudden I wasn't funny any more. My Aussie friend's face turned red and
he replied: "Yeh, and Canada is America's 51st state."
Peter


Coyote...Tracey is from New Zealand....a horse of a very different color
than Australia....
and hugs Coyote
Patricia

(Speaking of Down Under but definitely not Oz, where's Tracey?)

That's why I was so careful about the 'not Oz'- I've had
NZedders on my case bigtime for failing to observe the
distinction. Like lumping Canada with the US eh? ;9

Sooooo, other than somewhere in NZ, where's Tracey?
She said something about getting a new address,,,

Hugs back atcha hey ;]

c.s.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:32:19 -0700
From: Ray Jones
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607232132.OAA17692@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:11 PM 7/23/96 -0500, you wrote:

I, personally, will not bed a man who is fat, bearded,
moustachioed, bald, poor, under-endowed, under-educated,
geographically challenged, poor, short, dumb, dirty,
unsuccessful, MARRIED, OLD or otherwise "imperfect."

Mmmmm, now where have I heard this before?

I can't answer that nor do I know if you're being sarcastic or just stating
your criteria. I won't criticize your criteria nor those of anyone else.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and criteria espeically of those they
will "bed" or live with. I will state, however, that if those are truly your
criteria you are missing out on some of the best guys around.

The same goes for men who feel that way about women. I have no such
criteria. My only criteria is the "inner woman". The "outer woman" while
nice is just that. (a shell) You've got to get rid of the "rind" or the
"peel" before you find what truly counts.

As a "short", "fat", "beginning to bald", "not overly-endowed" and otherwise
"imperfect" man, I question your judgement for I know my worth even if you
don't. I'm a better lover because of that. If thought I was "God's gift to
women", I'd never have learned much of what I've learned.

I'm only glad I've got better sense as some of the most beautfiul women in
the world are those that other men would cast aside going for the "fools
gold" instead of the "real gold".



--
Regards,

Ray Jones
****************************************************************************
Coming to New Orleans? Contact "Big Ray" the Buggy Driver
Licensed Tour Guide

Historical tours through the romantic French Quarter in New Orleans, LA
Ride in a mule-drawn "vis-a-vis" carriage while enjoying the surroundings-
and being informed about the history, points of interest and other info

Cellular Phone - 884-9572 Digital Beeper 504-547-8032
Thu. thru Mon. 5 p.m. to midnight (appx.)


ray.jones@mail.sstar.com OR ray.jones@nopc.org

"Big Ray"'s home page http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607232133.OAA01997@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 6183

Tony wrote:

I have to take issue with what Coyote Sings says about physical type.
Not that I disagreed with his points, which made sense, but because he
seems to have confused those who FANTASIZE about the Xena/Gabby
Reece/Ubergirl type with those who PRESCRIBE it to other women as
something that "had better" be emulated.

I'm going to show you what it is that people have been keying on about
what you say. So far, you're right. Folks have the right to
fantasize about stuff.

First, I for one have never done this. It would be the heighth of
folly for me to tell a woman of "average" build (say, 5'4" and 140
lbs.) that she should try somehow to attain the Amazonian proportions
of a Gabrielle Reece, because that would be impossible. I know of no
drug or exercise regimen on the market that can do that!! (If there
were, it would still have to be up to each woman whether or not to use
it -- I for one would hope most WOULD!!)

Being about 5'2", I came to a point long ago where I realised I would
never be a model or an amazon. ;) Once again, there's nothing wrong
with this point.

No, we who merely fantasize about Gabby Reece and Xena do not harbor
the illusion that this physical type can be made ubiquitous anytime
soon. Nor is anyone (to my knowledge) saying that to be a supporter
of Female Supremacy, a woman must be built like an Amazon. As I said,
that would be folly.

Well, I'd only disagree with this one a bit...There _are_ men who try
to say that women _have_ to be this type of Amazon to be someone
worthy of respect.

HOWEVER, I humbly beg Coyote Sings to respect my right to fantasize as
I do here on this mailing list and on several newsgroups such as AWS.
What I do, when I write stories or diatribes about this kind of woman,
is both fantasizing, and (hopefully) expanding our thinking about what
a woman can be and is "supposed" to be. Example: In the last
century and for millenia before that, women were largely barred from
playing sports, except perhaps for a few dainty badminton games. Now,
with role models like Gabrielle Reece, young women can feel "right"
about emulating women who are physically powerful and openly display a
commanding physical presence. If that isn't an appropriate ideal for
the "Female Supremacy" movement, then I don't know what is!

Mostly ok for the moment. Except I'll point out something that I
don't think you do, but some people do. They propose that we accept
some sort of reality (like having women go out and just conquer men)
and then turn around and say "let me have my fantasies." Fantasies
are fine, but don't propose them as something for us to do on this
list. This list isn't about fantasy, it's about reality.

For instance, in days of yore, women who were built "big" -- say, 6' or
taller -- were encouraged to stoop, so as to hide their size and appear
less intimidating -- especially to men. Thankfully, this has changed
for the better, and the movement toward greater female participation in
sports -- especially at the high school level, and on through college
-- has been instrumental in reversing this. Recently I read a
newspaper article about a Japanese-American female high school
basketball star, who at 6' tall, had surpassed both parents in height.
Her dad applauded the fact that she didn't slouch, noting that "six
foot girls are a lot more common today, and they don't slouch anymore".
I think this is great!

Yes, I have tall female friends who slouch out of self-consciousness.

I think that one of the ultimate, longer-term goals of the "Female
Supremacist" movement should be to destroy the old stereotypes about
women's physical weakness, and -- this is important -- through any
means necessary, eliminate whatever remnants of physical weakness there
may be in the female sex. If this means genetic engineering -- in the
long term -- then, why not? As a society we rue gender harrassment,
date rape, and male-on-female domestic violence (some poor dweeb will
certainly bring up female-on-male domestic violence, just to set me
straight -- don't distract me with that!!) Well, what better way of
ending this biologically-based pattern of unfairness towards the female
sex than to actually CHANGE WOMEN? Why shouldn't we try to make the
next generation of women, or future generations of women at some point
in the future -- into Amazon women, capable of defending themselves
against men? This would be a very radical, but in my opinion, a
laudable goal. If you are a true Female Supremacist, you must at
least THINK ABOUT IT!!

Ok, here's where I have a problem. Genetically engineering all women
to be amazons? For one thing, I think all of the guys who like little
women would be annoyed with you. ;)

For one thing, Female Supremacy isn't about violence. Therefore, it's
not about size. It's about smarts, empathy, saving the earth and the
human race IMO. I don't see how genetically engineering a race of
superwomen quite matters.

Already, it's pretty much known that in many cases the strength
differences between men and women are becoming pointless. More and
more is being done by machines, how much someone can lift won't matter
too much. Of course, some people are afraid we're going to "reverse
evolve" or something if we become a world of couch/computer potatos.
But, that's not what this post is about. :)

Anyway, I think women being able to defend themselves has more to do
with taking self defense than all of us being 6'.

One more thing. Why should women have to be the ones to change? Why
in your theory don't you have men genetically engineered to be weaker
than women? We're supposed to be the "better" ones anyhow, aren't we?

Just some food for thought.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:11:24 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Very nicely put.
Peter

At 01:11 PM 7/23/96 -0500, you wrote:

I, personally, will not bed a man who is fat, bearded,
moustachioed, bald, poor, under-endowed, under-educated,
geographically challenged, poor, short, dumb, dirty,
unsuccessful, MARRIED, OLD or otherwise "imperfect."

Mmmmm, now where have I heard this before?

I can't answer that nor do I know if you're being sarcastic or just stating
your criteria. I won't criticize your criteria nor those of anyone else.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and criteria espeically of those they
will "bed" or live with. I will state, however, that if those are truly your
criteria you are missing out on some of the best guys around.

The same goes for men who feel that way about women. I have no such
criteria. My only criteria is the "inner woman". The "outer woman" while
nice is just that. (a shell) You've got to get rid of the "rind" or the
"peel" before you find what truly counts.

As a "short", "fat", "beginning to bald", "not overly-endowed" and otherwise
"imperfect" man, I question your judgement for I know my worth even if you
don't. I'm a better lover because of that. If thought I was "God's gift to
women", I'd never have learned much of what I've learned.

I'm only glad I've got better sense as some of the most beautfiul women in
the world are those that other men would cast aside going for the "fools
gold" instead of the "real gold".



--
Regards,

Ray Jones


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:13:51 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com, thughes@crosslink.net
Subject: Re: Your Recent Posts
Message-ID: <31F45F8F.48FD@crosslink.net
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <31F45EE4.7CFE@crosslink.net
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:11:00 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
Reply-To: thughes@crosslink.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Patricia Noble
Subject: Your Recent Posts
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

You sure know how to laser in on the heart of the matter. I agree with
every line you've written in these last two newsletters. It's nice to
read some sense on these issues. It has seemed like a loosing battle,
with the men saying I have poor taste and the women condemning me for not
encouraging them to be "healthy." Hogwash. How healthy and perfect do
we have to be to be accepted and happy. Five or ten pounds, thirty or
fifty, when do you cross the line, and become a looser worthy of disdain?
Yes, we should all be healthy, but will we all never have a milkshake,
ice cream, a piece of cake? Never do anything wrong? Self
indulgent? Talk about an unrealistic fantasy! All have sinned and come
short of the glory of God. That came from a very old book. Let's just
all not even bother being human. Why did God make lions, giraffes,
elephants, hippos, storks, monkeys and apes if he only wanted one perfect
animal! Variety is a good thing. Some women look like fragile storks,
some like powerful rinos, some like elegant swans. If I'm taking a wagon
train out west, give me the powerfully built, strong gal any day. All
are beautiful, and sexism, fatism, thinism, and bigotry is ignorant and
wrong. If not let's be identical little robots, little Ken and Barbie,
and just worship our pretty little bodies....PLLLLLEASE!!!YOUR TELLING IT
LIKE IT IS AND I LOVE IT, GO GIRL!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:52:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Noble wrote:

The American Psychological society says:


at the other end of the spectrum from the american medical association:


and my mistake tony, it is over 100,000 young women a year who die from
anorexia and bulimia....is that an acceptable number.

Patricia:

I will not comment on this discussion since others have done so
most ably. But I would like to thank you for injecting some hard
statistics from reputable sources into the arena. This is not a
theoretical issue, but one which is of vital importance to the
women/girls all of us love.
To those who downplay the problem, I hope you never have to
confront it in your personal life. Should it happen, however, my advice
is to gently pull the lids over the dead eyes. That seems to make it
easier for most of the family members I have seen. At least temporarily.

Peace,

Barry


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:
Re: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a ques
Re: Admiration
Re: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a ques
Trying to Understand
traceys mail
I am livid
Re: I am livid
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: I am livid
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: I am livid
Re: Not Your Average Mom
Re: I am livid
Re: Trying to Understand

--

Thanks for updating us about Hilary, Dennis. I'm still hoping for you both.
I know how it feels to admire someone so much but I can only guess how
tough it is for you now.
Let her know she has people round the world rooting for her.

You're right about Lady Jet.
I think she is special even though I've only been around
these parts for three weeks.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 96 18:00:40 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Admiration
Message-ID: <960627220039_100410.1764_BHG70-3@CompuServe.COM

Patricia wrote
I too, really appreciate all the fine, strong women here...and that includes
you Jet. When my company makes its first million and I have to buy and fly my
Lear Jet....I will pick you all up and we will go have lunch and shopping in
Paris. Patricia

Please stop off in London. Plenty of good shops there.
I could even show you the original Manchester.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 96 18:56:44 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Re: Admiration (was Re: Subs Dom gals like (in general) Re: meretool asks a ques
Message-ID: <960627225644_101342.2030_GHW83-1@CompuServe.COM

Thanks for updating us about Hilary, Dennis. I'm still hoping for you both.
I know how it feels to admire someone so much but I can only guess how
tough it is for you now.
Let her know she has people round the world rooting for her.

Jon

Your really kind Jon, and I really appreciate your words. Yes
it can be hard, as you may have noticed in my late night *angry*
postings - sorry again everybody.

Hilary is starting another round of radiotherapy tomorrow, this
time unfortunately she will be losing her hair, which is her
crowning glory. But as usual, Hilary approaches everything
positively, and has already picked out a new wig for when it all
starts happening. Hopefully, she will soon be in much less pain
than she is now, and be able to reduce the morphine intake to a
level that enables her to think straight again.

Thanks again Jon, it is good to know so many people are thinking
positive thoughts.

I hope to be posting good news very soon.

Dennis (t.o.m)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 11:40:43 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Trying to Understand
Message-ID: <6328401128061996/A01881/DALEK/11A6E2E81B00*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A6E2E81B00

Peter raised an interesting question re subs. A question that I have been
pondering myself because I am trying to understand all this sub/domm stuff.


wimp in the woman's presence?

Laura responded with:

women over the years, I would say that the large majority of dominant
women want a man who is pleasent, sexy, and in every way respectable,
to willingly subordinate himself to his woman because of her special
qualities which inspire him. The ideal sub male seems to be a guy
who's capable of holding his own around other men, and is not a simple
pushover or reject. He should have self-respect, asserting himself on
his own behalf if need be. So sniveling wimps are definately out.

But a different view comes from Patricia with her post:

unload our bags..and carry the many bags of purchases we acquire in
Paris. You may sit on the ground by the table at the outside cafe where
we eat lunch and we may or may not drop you crumbs...one likes to
imagine that in Paris...such things are not even given a second look.
and, of course, we will then charge everything on your credit card

I have had male dominated relationships but the belittling has never been to
this extent. I can't ever imagine a man thinking about having his woman
sitting on the ground being treated like a pet. Why is it so different when a
woman dominates? Like it is okay to beat a man, but not a woman. I know I am
stirring the pot of debate and please do not flame me, I am trying to
understand an existence like this. I also can't comprehend how a man would
want to be treated this way. A woman is usually forced, or tricked into a male
dominated relationship (from personal experiences), but when it's the other way
'round ie, woman domm, it's the male that seeks this type of relationship too.
Do you think you are being tricked? ie, reverse psychology?

Tracey

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:02:56 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: traceys mail
Message-ID: <31D34B60.1087@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ONE...i can't include it because the mail has no return address...but
here goes my response.

Laura and I are not saying different things...I expect my sub to be self
confidant, respectable, pleasant, sexy and willing to sit and wait for
his food, while sitting and waiting for his crumbs. He would not be
whining or whimpy, but be proud to be of such service to me if it gives
me pleasure....what a guy...

I have a fantasy about Arnold Swartzenager..as a sub...Maria Shriver is
a very strong lady...

these relationships are DOMME/sub...not sub/domme...
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:07:19 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: I am livid
Message-ID: <31D34C67.3698@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

traceys letter has me raging. What I propose is not belittling. If a
man wants to serve me and my pleasure is his motivation...this is a high
honor and quite the opposite of belittling. I would not let just
anybody sit next to my table...believe me. It is not ok to beat anybody
who does not want to be beat. But if it is a mutually agreed upon way
of playing then it is not beating it is play.

You belittle women by saying they are forced or tricked into serving
DOM male. But if that is here pleasure...
I know many sub women who serve male DOM's and believe me ...they would
be all over you like flies on poop if you dared to say they were stupid
enough to be tricked...
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:00:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: I am livid
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Patricia,

Please read the subject header on Tracey's posting: "Trying to
Understand". Not of us was born with perfect knowledge; we all had to
find our way and some of us, including myself, are still making the attempt.
Anger will do neither you nor Tracey any good. Let's all join in
sharing our views with her and let her inform us as her understanding
develops.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:13:13 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tracey wrote:

I have had male dominated relationships but the belittling has never been to
this extent. I can't ever imagine a man thinking about having his woman
sitting on the ground being treated like a pet. Why is it so different when a
woman dominates? Like it is okay to beat a man, but not a woman. I know I am
stirring the pot of debate and please do not flame me, I am trying to
understand an existence like this. I also can't comprehend how a man would
want to be treated this way. A woman is usually forced, or tricked into a male
dominated relationship (from personal experiences), but when it's the other way
'round ie, woman domm, it's the male that seeks this type of relationship too.
Do you think you are being tricked? ie, reverse psychology?


For the answer, Tracey, you'll have to look at a whole bunch of psychology
books.
But two thoughts come to mind:
1) There are plenty of women who enjoy a similar relationship.
2)Who cares?
As John Lennon said: "Whatever gets you through the night ....."

Peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:17:24 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: I am livid
Message-ID: <31D35CD4.2470@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am not unwilling to be understanding of someone who is trying to
learn..but calling names and accusing people of being tricked etc..is
too big a stereotype for me to deal with.
Patricia...


Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

Patricia,

Please read the subject header on Tracey's posting: "Trying to
Understand". Not of us was born with perfect knowledge; we all had to
find our way and some of us, including myself, are still making the attempt.
Anger will do neither you nor Tracey any good. Let's all join in
sharing our views with her and let her inform us as her understanding
develops.

Peace,

Barry

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606280216.TAA21186@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3964

Tracey wrote [in part]:

Peter raised an interesting question re subs. A question that I have been
pondering myself because I am trying to understand all this sub/domm stuff.
;;;
I know I am stirring the pot of debate and please do not flame me, I am
trying to understand an existence like this.
;;;
I also can't comprehend how a man would want to be treated this way.


Tracey,

You have indeed raised several weeks' worth of discussion, but that's what
this place is for. You're also picking up on some of Dennis' earlier
thoughts and questions. Here's my own [totally personal] take on what's
going on here:

There is no one 'correct' notion of Female Supremacy, and it's fair to
say that this group was founded in part as a place to explore all the
different ways that FS can be expressed and experienced. There are
as many definitions of FS as there are readers on this forum.

It seems that there are 3 (overlapping) streams of thought feeding into
our discussions: 1) modern political Feminism, 2) Womens' spirituality /
Womens' religion, and 3) erotic Female-dominant BDSM (usually termed
'FemDom' for short and treated in depth on the newsgroup alt.sex.femdom).
In a perfect world, these three streams would be neatly braided together
here. The people here, both women and men, have interests in all three,
but my impression is that 3) erotic FemDom represents the majority interest,
and especially among the men here. Just a hunch, but my bet is that if
this were a women-only forum, 1) and 2) would get far more play and 3) morph
into a discussion of 'relationships' in general, or one about family
issues such as the one introduced by Jet a while back, and a possible 4)
would emerge: Earth and related economic issues.

By now you've discovered that the people here are pretty complex and more
than a little, uhm, 'colorful,' thee and me included. ;D There is no
'typical' FS list reader at all. We're all over the chart, and the 'chart'
is really a cube, and a female cube and a male cube, overlapping one
another. You and Patricia seem [to me] to be in different corners of the
cube, as do meretool and Dennis in their corners. Timberwolf is in one place,
and lanoline in another. As are all the rest of us, and most of us are
moving targets, depending on the topic.

(I have no idea where I am on any given day: In public I am both a
political Feminist and a patent religious nut- In private I am an obsessed
near-suicidal broken-bones masochist, as only two here really know- I was
amazed to ever find such casually brutal women, but grateful that I did.
And all of these pieces fit together pretty well, _mirabile dictu_.
Everyone here is like this to some degree- complex but full of
contradictions- inlcuding you. ;])

If we all agree on anything, it's probably that in today's world and
in the future, women have more of the answers than do men and their values.
IMNSHO, that is.

Beyond that, we're all just groping for the answers [it seems] and as
I told Magnus, 'there's no such thing as a stupid question.'
Ask away: you've got a room full of opinions and experience here.

I also can't comprehend how a man would want to be treated this way.

A separate thread, one hopes.

For my part, not a clue. I crave it, as do most of the men here, but
I have no answers at all. Some guesses, but no answers. None. One of my
most basic drives (of 3 or 4), but not the faintest glimmer. 'Women know,
the men may wonder.' Believe it.

Clueless in Phoenix,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:26:23 -0400
From: Mitch847@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: I am livid
Message-ID: <960627222621_226696866@emout18.mail.aol.com

I think the important thing for Ms.Tracey to understand about Female
Dominant/male submissive relationships is that there are literally as many
kinds of these relationships as there are people involved in those
relationships. People's tastes differ, and no two relationships are exactly
alike. I assure you that there are many men who would, indeed, feel honored
to share Ms. Patricia's table in the exact manner that she requires. There
are also many submissive males who would not find the arrangement to their
liking. Variety, as they say, is the spice of life.

As to the reasons that many men would be honored to serve Ms. Patricia in
this manner, I believe that they would also vary according to the individual.
Some may crave the humiliation that she offers, some may want to endure the
humiliation to show their worthiness to her, some may like the way that Ms.
Patricia clearly illustrates to them the difference in their respective
status, still others may be excited by Ms. Patricia's insistence that they
are fortunate to share those moments with her that she allows them, and echo
her sentiments accordingly.

Ms. Patricia is absolutely right to indulge herself in this way. After all,
this forum is really about Women's Advancement and Self-Empowerment. If
something feels good to her, and no one is harmed, then she should be free to
pursue her interests as she judges best. Of course, no one is better able to
judge what is best for her than she is.

Ms. Tracey, while you may feel somewhat confused about Female Dominance (or
at least certain aspects of it), I'm certain that given time and a little
exposure to others with such interests, you'll decide for yourself if it's
something that you truly want, and if so the exact style of Female Dominance
that you find most fulfilling.

I'm sorry that the issue got as heated as it did. I really think that there
was a miscommunication, and certainly that no offense was meant to Ms.
Patricia on your part. Sometimes it's difficult to get the exact tone that
we're seeking across in writing.

Mitch G

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 03:43:47 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Not Your Average Mom
Message-Id: <199606280337.DAA18653@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

David Stevenson in reply to Dennis and Dee-Ann,

I apologise for a somewhat *strident* posting, but as a father of 3
children,I feel strongly about exposing children to adult scenarios
(alcohol, drugs,bdsm etc.), instead, protect them and teach them to be
intelligent enough to make their own way (and make up their own minds)
in this world with safety.

Dennis (t.o.m)

I can see this kind of solution being a bad idea in some cases. It
could easily undermine whatever respect a child has for that person,
making them ineffectual as a "babysitter". Also, if I was the
kid/teen in question, I tell you I'd be _looking_ for that punishment
book to see what was in it.

These are just my personal feelings, but IMO I wouldn't do a lot of
D/s in front of my kids (if I had any :). I would require my mate to
obey me, yes, but there's really a difference between, "Go get me a
towel, would ya?" "Sure, one sec!" and "Get me a towel or I'm going
to drag you in the back room and do you-know-what".

Dee-Ann

I'm not sure it is fair to lump bdsm in with alcohol and drugs.

If my daughter asked me, "Why was Mummy crying last night." When in
fact Mummy was having an orgasm, I think it would be necessary to
give some kind of explanation. The amount of detail would depend to
some extent on the age of the child, and on how interested she/he was
in listening once reassured that everything was OK.

Equally with my comment with regard to handcuffs left under the bed.
We can all do these things accidentally, and children are going to
ask. At this stage re-assurance is what I was advocating, not
thrusting bdsm into their faces.

Bdsm is a valid form of sexual expression, which just like vanilla
sex we do not do in front of the children. But just as it is OK for
vanilla Mum & Dad to kiss and cuddle. So some expression of a bdsm
lifestyle is acceptable. My example of a telling off when 'he' was
rude, was meant as an example of how such things can be included
without going over the top into dragging him off to beat him. In fact
I was advocating that while both Dom & Sub might know what the book
meant, the telling off gave the impression that the book was the
beginning and end. I'm sorry if that was not clear in my phraseology.

If one has prying children that will go and search for 'the book',
then the book could be kept locked away. But I do not advocate this
kind of reaction. I do not believe it is healthy for parents to
behave as though there is something guilty or dirty about their sex
lives. Nor require their children watch.

Although there comes a stage when children will want to learn more
about sex, and if you are hiding your form of sexual expression from
them, they may feel obliged to sneak around in order to try and
understand.

Hence I favour always answering their questions honestly, but only
giving simple explanations. There may come a point when the questions
become so direct that you have no choice but to sit down and have a
heart to heart.

I know one Lady who didn't have to do this until her daughter was
grown up and married. When she was informed, she disowned her Mother
and has since had nothing to do with her. The Mother in question is one of
the warmest and kind hearted of scene folk I have ever had the honour to
meet.

My daughter is now 21 and living in the USA. I have a strong feeling
she knows, but she has never asked. I'm pretty sure she will find me
out on the internet one day, but then she will have been looking in
the right places so will presumably be open minded enough to handle
it better than the example above. She certainly drops hints from time
to time, but even now I'm reluctant to open up without a direct
question.

Vanilla:-
In my opinion. A child could go to school and say in the earshot of a
teacher, 'I saw/heard my Mum & Dad f***ing last night. I walked into
their bedroom and they were going at it like a couple of steam hammers.'
Would this involve the children being taken from their parents? I
hope not, surely a more appropriate response is to suggest to the child
that it might be better to knock on doors before entering.

Bdsm:-
The fact that the authorities regard our sex play as justification
for such acts must be changed. Which is why I feel we must support
all open minded attempts by authority to move in that direction.
Hence my support of the study that I mentioned in an earlier
posting. If we can change the minds of the medical profession, it
will have an impact in the courts of this land when it comes to these
child care cases.

If we hide away as though we have guilty secrets, that is the way
society and our children will treat us.

Anyone wanting a repeat of the email address is welcome to write. I
have had much correspondence with Patricia Cross on the matter. I am
informed they have a couple of 'resident experts' on the team.

Warm regards,
David.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:49:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: I am livid
Message-Id: <199606280249.WAA16096@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:07 PM 6/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
traceys letter has me raging. What I propose is not belittling. If a
man wants to serve me and my pleasure is his motivation...this is a high
honor and quite the opposite of belittling. I would not let just
anybody sit next to my table...believe me. It is not ok to beat anybody
who does not want to be beat. But if it is a mutually agreed upon way
of playing then it is not beating it is play.

I believe tracey read your note and drew conclusions influenced by her
experiences, without understanding or realizing the context in which your
note, Patricia, was offered. To tell you the truth I was a taken aback
momentarily until I realized the spirit in which it was offered. We all
have different ways of expressing ourselves and desires. Perhaps this
whole thread is just a communicative misunderstanding.

To add my 2 cents, I will say that mutual trust, respect, and caring should
be the basis of any relationship, and that the play and power exchange
involved in a bdsm relationship should enrich both parties lives for the better.

We should try to shed more light on the subject than heat, Paul (maidpaula
wondering if Lady Jet and Air Domme 1 needs a stewardess ;)



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:41:48 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606280241.TAA09507@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tracey said:

I have had male dominated relationships but the belittling has never been to
this extent. I can't ever imagine a man thinking about having his woman
sitting on the ground being treated like a pet. Why is it so different when a
woman dominates? Like it is okay to beat a man, but not a woman. I know I am
stirring the pot of debate and please do not flame me, I am trying to
understand an existence like this. I also can't comprehend how a man would
want to be treated this way. A woman is usually forced, or tricked into a male
dominated relationship (from personal experiences), but when it's the other way
'round ie, woman domm, it's the male that seeks this type of relationship too.
Do you think you are being tricked? ie, reverse psychology?


I think your confusion is natural if you aren't coming from a D/s viewpoint.
I can only speak for myself, but it seems to me that you are confusing
actual abusive relationships, in which one person dominates and harms
another physically and/or psychologically, and the "play" that happens in
D/s. The saying is that this type of play should be "safe, sane, and
consensual." Everyone I know takes this seriously. It may not be politically
correct, but the most basic reason people take part in D/s is very simple:
it makes them HOT! (I know there are other levels to this, such as the
spiritual, political, etc., but I'm trying to keep this reasonably simple.)

I can tell you from my personal experience that what turns me on is
hardwired. This is also true for my husband/lover/partner of ten years.
Fortunately we are hardwired in complementary ways! ;) It may be difficult
for you to understand, perhaps impossible on a visceral level (after all, I
don't know how YOU are wired!), but I love my partner with all my heart, I
respect him and absolutely consider him my equal. Nonetheless I am more than
happy to dress him in only a dog collar and a cock-strap, call him "puppy,"
and generally order him about in ways that please me. The key here is that
he also genuinely enjoys this (right down to the floggings and other forms
of "discipline").


Let me give you a quote from Pat Callifia's beginner-level book, _Sensuous
Magic_:

"To play the part of a severe yet loving Superior requires an ethical and
sensitive heart. Performing as the delicious one who yields up everything
requires a great deal of strength. The point...is to leave both of you
feeling elated, pleased with each other and yourselves--to give you release,
not resentment; affirmation, not despair."

Elation, release, and affirmation are not qualities found in abusive
relationships. I know, I've been there. Please believe that what my partner
and I share is NOT demeaning to either of us.

I can see that Female Domination would be a popular subject on a Female
Supremacy list, but I don't think everyone should feel that they have to
participate personally! The main thing to understand is that it is a type of
consensual play that affords pleasure to both sides.

Tracey, I hope this helps, and that I haven't been too long-winded :)

--Lady Phoenix

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 140

Today's Topics:
Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Crone women (post-menopause)
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Newbie comes on board.
Re: POWER
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Re: POWER
Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Posting complete digests.
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: POWER
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:32:50 -0400
From: Tom2440@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-ID: <960706073250_231929693@emout09.mail.aol.com

Women's Equity Mutual Fund seeks long-term capital appreciation. The fund
normally invests at least 65% of assets in equities issued by companies that
meet certain social-responsibility criteria. Companies selected for
investment exhibit some or all of the following characteristics: strong
career-development programs for Women, Women in top executive positions, high
percentage of Women directors on the board, positive images of Women in
advertising, use of Women-owned vendors, fair treatment of employees,
sensitivity to minority issues and environmental sensitivity. The fund may
invest up to 20% of assets in foreign securities.

Ticker Symbol: FEMMX
Minimum Investment: $1000
Telephone: 415-296-9135

This fund is relatively new and has recently trailed the S&P 500, but i
think that the subscribers in this group should give it a look. i can't think
of a better way to promote our beliefs and also meet investment objectives

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 08:35:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Message-Id: <199607061335.IAA22970@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jung introduced a theory of personality type. Myers-Briggs and her
daughter developed a test to rapidly determine an indivdual's type. The
theory is that that there is a potential polarity between
Introversion/extroversion, Intuition/Sensation, Feeling/Thinking, and
Perceiving/Judging. Jung believed that individuation and growth were more
elusive for individuals who were at the extremes on these polarities, and
that balance can be restored by manifesting the least developed tendency.
For example, an extreme introvert needs to learn to curb the tendency to
look inward, and find ways to look to other people more.
I believe that men who may be extrovert-sensing-thinking-judging
early in their adult life may in later life actively seek to manifest the
introvert-intuitive-feeling-perceiving tendencies within themselves. As
such, these men would be of a personality "type" predisposed to submissive
lifestyle, and a natural ally for the woman who can be of the opposite type.
Thoughts?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 08:44:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Crone women (post-menopause)
Message-Id: <199607061344.IAA23362@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have observed in my professional field, that a great deal of
respect is given to certain women who are apparently crones. I am not
suggesting that this is based on cause-and-effect, because obviously there
are other crones who have not expressed themselves in such a way as to
receive the same respect from the profession.
I wonder to what extent menopause may enable women to be wiser.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Jul 96 16:36:26 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-Id: <199607061436.QAA28800@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:32:50 -0400, Tom2440@aol.com wrote:

think that the subscribers in this group should give it a look. i can't think
of a better way to promote our beliefs and also meet investment objectives

As an investment is carries a lot of risk for a foreigner since the USD
keeps jumping up and down the way it does.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 10:38:56 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-ID:

FEWomen's Equity Mutual Fund seeks long-term capital appreciation. The fund
FEnormally invests at least 65% of assets in equities issued by companies that
FEmeet certain social-responsibility criteria. Companies selected for
FEinvestment exhibit some or all of the following characteristics: strong
FEcareer-development programs for Women, Women in top executive positions, hig
FEpercentage of Women directors on the board, positive images of Women in
FEadvertising, use of Women-owned vendors, fair treatment of employees,
FEsensitivity to minority issues and environmental sensitivity. The fund may
FEinvest up to 20% of assets in foreign securities.

I am there. Thank you.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:33:28 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Message-Id: <199607061828.UAA07952@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote David Land:

I wonder to what extent menopause may enable women to be wiser.

Sarah Blaffer Hrdy---surely the most sensitive and insightful of all the
great female primate researchers---noted during her investigation of the
Indian holy langur monkeys that the only females who tried to stand up
to the infanticidal troop males were those who were past or nearly past
reproductive age. Whilst their younger sisters (or rather nieces and
daughters; as amongst the similarly infanticidal lions, the females are all
related) have more to gain in terms of genes transmitted to the next
generation by trying to get the male to impregnate them and thus to get
new offspring than by resistance, the old females who do not have this
possibility could gain more by actually saving a grandchild or a niece's
young. So they actually do try to put up some resistance.

There may exist a relict behaviour of this kind in (wo)man. It is at
least easy to see that older women (in our country we call them
generically 'aunties') are a good deal more determined and even
ruthless than young women, and very probably than they were when
they were young. Do not try to play games with an 'auntie'! She has
nothing to gain by trying to please a male at any price, and she has
learnt that he is not a higher kind of being.

So essentially, if wisdom it be, it may be partly inborn and partly of
an exceedingly practical nature. And it may be that there are strong
forms of biological logic counteracting sisterly solidarity as long as
there is ovulation. (Which does not mean that it would necessarily
be impossible; we are not the prisoners of our biologys, but we show
it disrespect at our own peril.)

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 16:10:55 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kalika
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Newbie comes on board.
Message-Id: <199607062211.WAA17705@netbox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear List Members:

It is with pleasure and anticipation that I first post to this list, the
foundation of which, is FemSupremacy / GynoSupremacy. Pleasure in hopefully
finding others of a like mind ... the anticipation of exchanging
ideas,learning new things and perhaps making new friends.

As is the curse of any new member, I have no knowledge of what has gone
before ... what subject's / topics are old hat, worn out and of little
interest now. Similarly, I have no idea what will cause current listmembers
to be uncomfortable or to sustain hurt feelings, etc. Therefore, if I do so,
please understand that it is unintentional and that I apologise in advance
for it. A healthy discussion can end in two parties (or more) going their
seperate ways, still believing what they basically did before. Not
everything needs end in total agreement. If I bring up tired old subjects,
just say so. If it is a tired old subject to most, but not to you, just post
me "off list".

Here are some subject's I have an interest in discussing with members of
this List. If any are of particular interest, just say so, on or off list.
Again, if any are old stuff...

Subject's:

1. The Kali / shiva relationship / dance as a pattern for future role
modeling (both Wimmin and males).

2. The worship of the Divine Feminine / Female Principle as the primary
foundation stone in the understanding of the true Feminine reality of all of
Creation. (that *everything* is created Feminine/Female, that physical
creation is the "Daughter" of the Divine Creatrix ... that some things are
"altered" after conception to produce the male principle / maleness.) (this
can often lead to a discussion of #3 below, and where / when the male
principle forms / existes.)

3. The understanding of the true relationship of the male principle to the
Female Principle, and hence of males to Wimmin here on the physical plane.

4. The reality of Female liberation ... what can this mean ... what / where
does it take us ... where do we want to go ? (shaking off the patriarchy for
sure, but also ... awaking to Divinity / physical world incarnation /source,
of the Holy Divine Feminine Principle ... what does this imply ?)

5. The reality of "male liberation" ... what is it ? what does it mean for
males ? what impedes it, what accelerates it ? is this of interest to Wimmin ?

6. Viewing the Mother Earth from an EcoCentric / Femsupreme viewpoint ...
where does this lead ? Ancient Future ? large scale population reduction /
"overshoot". Also, ... large scale male population reduction ? or ?


Greetings To All.

kalika@netbox.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:12:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: POWER
Message-Id: <199607062212.PAA22945@netcom6.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1153


A while ago i joined an organization called POWER, which stood for
Promoting the Organization of Women Enlightened to Rule. Correspondence to me
has been very sporadic. Can anyone tell me the current status of this
organization or recommend any other organizations which promote Female
Supremacy and the return to Matriarchal rule?

Tom, this is the first time I for one have ever heard of these people, but
I'm curious. Could you tell us how to connect with POWER, because I would
like to know more. Usually these leads are disappointing, but
occasionally they're not. Thank you.

--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:27:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-Id: <199607062227.PAA23678@netcom6.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1518

Tom wrote:

Companies selected for
investment exhibit some or all of the following characteristics: strong
career-development programs for Women, Women in top executive positions, high
percentage of Women directors on the board, positive images of Women in
advertising, use of Women-owned vendors, fair treatment of employees,
sensitivity to minority issues and environmental sensitivity.

This is pretty much how I select the people I do business with, and it
usually works. (The one big client that just folded on me was male-run.)
Women tend to work in networks rather than in competing pyramids, and so are
far more prepared for a very different capitalism than we have seen in
the past. Women waste far less energy in making an enterprise work.


This fund is relatively new and has recently trailed the S&P 500, but i
think that the subscribers in this group should give it a look. i can't think
of a better way to promote our beliefs and also meet investment objectives

Agreed- it's bang on. I'll start watching it, and more importantly, I'll
watch Sorceress watch it, because I'm about to look for better ways to
invest anyway (being pretty small beer in all this).

I'll also pass the word. Thank you.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 18:40:26 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Message-ID:

What a wonderful post! Thank you!
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 14:48:02 +0000
From: "m+J"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: POWER
Message-Id: <9607062248.AA01815@aurora.alaska.edu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

They seem to still be functioning, as we still receive mailings...you
can contact them at:

P.O.W.E.R.
PO Box 1048
Indiana, PA 15701



A while ago i joined an organization called POWER, which stood for
Promoting the Organization of Women Enlightened to Rule. Correspondence to me
has been very sporadic. Can anyone tell me the current status of this
organization or recommend any other organizations which promote Female
Supremacy and the return to Matriarchal rule?

Tom, this is the first time I for one have ever heard of these people, but
I'm curious. Could you tell us how to connect with POWER, because I would
like to know more. Usually these leads are disappointing, but
occasionally they're not. Thank you.

--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela


the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 17:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Message-Id: <199607070020.RAA01923@netcom9.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2014

I believe that men who may be extrovert-sensing-thinking-judging
early in their adult life may in later life actively seek to manifest the
introvert-intuitive-feeling-perceiving tendencies within themselves. As
such, these men would be of a personality "type" predisposed to submissive
lifestyle, and a natural ally for the woman who can be of the opposite type.
Thoughts?

I have trouble remembering which is which when I see a M-B profile, and every
time I test I get a slightly different reading. THat said, I think it's
an interesting and possibly useful tool if used carefully.

I have tended to test intuitive-feeling-perceiving all my life (and have also
been drawn to dominant women and feminism all my adult life). But here's
curious departure: when I was younger I was introverted, and only in the
last 10 or 12 years have I become really outgoing and even aggressive at
times, but in a friendly, cooperative way. 12 or 15 years ago I was a
total loner and took my friends in ones and twos. Now in, uhm, maturity I
seem to reach out and be a community kind of guy much of the time. (My
creative time and space is still totally private, though,,,,Hmmmmmmm)

By and large, I agree with your idea: I would follow Gini Graham
Scott (_Erotic Power_) and call it 'balancing.'

Patricia/Noble and others here have hinted that there is indeed a male
'type' that is the natural ally of _femina post hominem_. Perhaps so.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela


After I sent my last post, I left for a few days to go to a
wedding and a
.........................................................

.........................................................
I'll stick around for a few more days and than, due to the volume
of mail, I will leave. Please feel free to sent email outside the
group.
..........................................................

..........................................................

David Stevenson replies......

Well you've got a cheek! "Volume of mail" he says!!

Please don't post the whole digest just to reply to a
letter or series of letters. If we wanted a digest
we would subscribe that way. But since we are not
subscribed to the digest we have already read all
those letters.

It also means I cannot use
to comment on your letter. The enclosed digest makes
it so big that my mailer refuses to deal with it.


who the hell are you...i never said anything about either of them..but
you called Betty Ford a drunk and I though I should say something about
her bravery. I will answer any or all of any part of any post that I
chose.
Patricia

Inferiorm@aol.com wrote:

What about Maime Pat. Your not adressing the post.



think that the subscribers in this group should give it a
look. i can't think of a better way to promote our beliefs
and also meet investment objectives

As an investment is carries a lot of risk for a
foreigner since the USD
keeps jumping up and down the way it does.

Long long ago, selling these products was my business. The
salesman are all taught to sell on past performance. But the
truth is that the reverse is often a better guide.

All markets have their peaks and troughs. So a fund that in xyz
investment broadsheet is listed as having the highest return
in the last ? years may well be due for a dip.

The best guide to future performance is ..... future
performance!

So if a product has not shone recently, take a look at it, find
out what it is investing in. Then buy it, not because you are
philanthropic, but because you think that it should do better in
the future.

The downside of this is the unwritten part. Pull out when you
have been proved right and before it takes it's dip. This means
that you might feel uncomfortable at withdrawing your support
from an investment that was made for other than hard headed
reasons. But of course, all those people that are following the
salesman's advice will be buying in just as you are getting out.
So if you feel bad about anything it should be the person
handing you your profit.

Lost? I know how you feel. I gave up selling this stuff when the
customers looked at me strange when I told them. "This is the
one that did really well last year, so buy the other one."
No wonder my sales figures were always lower than the rest.

To Magnus I would say. Buy in when the dollar is low and hold
the funds in dollar based invenstments until the dollar is
high.

So why aren't I rich? Just too laid back I guess.

Love to all,

David
.

Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 141

Today's Topics:
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Kalika's paradigm: Kali and shiva
Re: Kalika's paradigm: Kali and shiva
A male wonders
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:14:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

Long long ago, selling these products was my business. The
salesman are all taught to sell on past performance. But the
truth is that the reverse is often a better guide.
All markets have their peaks and troughs. So a fund that in xyz
investment broadsheet is listed as having the highest return
in the last ? years may well be due for a dip.

Well said. However, most small investors do not have the time and
ability to constantly buy and sell funds. For most of us, the best
approach is to find a fund that has done well over the past several years
and stick with it. Sure, it will rise and dip, but over the long term you
will earn a decent return. Unless you're a big investor, you'll make
more money per hour snagging some overtime or picking up a part-time job
than spending time researching and trading.

So if a product has not shone recently, take a look at it, find
out what it is investing in. Then buy it, not because you are
philanthropic, but because you think that it should do better in
the future.

Here I must disagree. Money is not everything. Most socially
responsible funds do as well or better than the average, and even if some
perform slightly more poorly, so what? Several years ago I testified at
a State hearing on the investment of Oregon's pension funds. We were
arguing against investing in South Africa (then in the grip of Apartheid)
and some folks said that we should invest our money where it would
provide the greatest return regardless of ethical issues. My testimony
stated that if that were the case we should buy into the importation and
sale of heroin and cocaine. That was extreme, of course, but the point
was made.

No wonder my sales figures were always lower than the rest.

But I'll bet your clients were happier than most.

To Magnus I would say. Buy in when the dollar is low and hold
the funds in dollar based invenstments until the dollar is
high.

Good advice, but unless currency fluctuations are extreme stocks still
offer the greatest return over the long term. And as c.s. states, women
make the best long-term managers. I plan to invest in the Womens' Equity
Mutual fund.

Peace,

Barry


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:11:30 -0400
From: Inferiorm@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-ID: <960707211128_150738962@emout10.mail.aol.com

Hey Pat you spelled choose incorectly. But that happens when one loses it.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:32:39 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-ID: <31E08F67.3BB1@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

suck my post menopausal wet one.
Patricia

Inferiorm@aol.com wrote:

Hey Pat you spelled choose incorectly. But that happens when one loses it.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:40:57 -0400
From: Inferiorm@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-ID: <960707214055_429272948@emout13.mail.aol.com

i think i would like that.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:11:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-Id: <199607080211.WAA15521@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:40 PM 7/7/96 -0400, Inferiorm@aol.com wrote:
i think i would like that.

Can you please take your immature dribble elsewhere or at least to private
email? It is very petty and not very becoming of you.

Thanks a bunch, Paul/maidpaula



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:15:26 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Message-ID:

FEsuck my post menopausal wet one.
FEPatricia

FEInferiorm@aol.com wrote:
FE
FE Hey Pat you spelled choose incorectly. But that happens when one loses it.
FE
Two thumbs up.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:17:38 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Message-ID:

FEHey Pat you spelled choose incorectly. But that happens when one loses it.

I don't know who you are, but you have over-stepped your
bounds and worn out your welcome.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-Id: <199607080336.UAA08045@netcom10.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 915

Inferiorm ended with:

i think i would like that.


maidpaula is right: this is is unbecoming and =stupid=.

This list is promoted as among other things a safe place for Women to post
unmolested, and as a safe place for men to post if they are polite.

One more post like that right or wrong and I will ask Dee to remove you
from the list when She returns. If that's a problem, write to me
privately or to Dee, but nothing more here. Thank you.

Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:09:31 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-Id: <199607081302.NAA22306@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 7 Jul 96 at 17:14,
From: Barry Emerson Wright

David Stevenson......
So if a product has not shone recently, take a look at
it, find out what it is investing in. Then buy it, not
because you are philanthropic, but because you think that
it should do better in the future.

Barry Emerson Wright......
Here I must disagree. Money is not everything. Most
socially responsible funds do as well or better than the
average, and even if some perform slightly more poorly, so
what? Several years ago I testified at a State hearing on
the investment of Oregon's pension funds. We were arguing
against investing in South Africa (then in the grip of
Apartheid) and some folks said that we should invest our
money where it would provide the greatest return regardless
of ethical issues. My testimony stated that if that were
the case we should buy into the importation and sale of
heroin and cocaine. That was extreme, of course, but the
point was made.

David Stevenson..........
And I agree with this point almost entirely. I think that you
should be socially responsible with your investment.
The ideal way is to disinvenst/not invest upon negative criteria.

My point is simply motivation.

If you are buying it for philanthropic reasons then screw
investment performance. Buy it anyway.

If your motivation is investment then barring negative criteria
buy on your best guess as to future probable performance.

However I have a feeling that charity does not belong in the
investment marketplace. It distorts the market and investment
decisions. It wouldn't do any good in the long term to keep
alive an ailing company that just has no future, simply becasue
it was run by persons/organisation one liked/ approved of.

Better to switch the funds to probable successes and ensure the
success of the criteria. Then give your profits to the
appropriate charity.

As to switching. Buy a managed fund where the fund managers
record on switching shows that they make wise investment
decisions/ guesses!

Love,
David.
.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:16:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-Id: <199607081316.GAA24566@netcom5.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 986

Although I would seriously consider the WEMF, I tend to agree with David.
Money/wealth/resources has no moral quality by itself, any more than does
fire or water: it just is. It's the _cabrones_ who abuse it in large
quantities that make the problems, and perhaps us for not paying attention.

A good rule would be: first get the money, then do the Right Thing.

(Yes, I know the pitfalls inherent in the 'getting.' Ooooh, do I know!)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Cc: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
Subject: Kalika's paradigm: Kali and shiva
Message-Id: <199607081331.GAA25294@netcom5.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 4748

July 8, 1996

Welcome, Kalika,,,

Wah! You seem to have blessed us with both a well-conceived
paradigm for Female Supremacist inquiry and about a year's
worth of discussion threads. Some would call that a good
beginning, whatever the other concerns expressed. Your list
starts with the cosmic/universal/origins themes and works us
down to the personal/present/specific and to the future.

If we fill in all the blanks (and respond to all the
digressions) we could have several full notebooks (or a disk
or two) and all =kinds= of ideas- and perhaps even a
commitment or two- about what each of us might do next.
Thank You. :)

Kalika's paradigm begins with

"1. The Kali / shiva relationship / dance as a pattern for
future role modeling (both Wimmin and males)."

Kali (by several names) seems to have found a western home
in the Women On Top movement and in Womens' religion generally.
(See the SMC website Q&A section for a good overview of
that.) Kali has a leg up (pun intended - see below) on the
re-emerging western Goddess figures in that She does after
all represent a tradition that is unbroken from the earliest
(WGWAW perhaps?) times. She is a central figure in a major
religiion/culture (the AyuraVedic or Hindu). She is also at
first encounter more than a little scary:

"You battle-dance on Shiva's heart,
A garland of heads that bounce off
Your heavy hips,
chopped-off hands
For a belt,,,
,,,those feet
Whose beauty is only deepened by blood..."*

Several pictures show a four-armed (i.e., divine) Kali
dancing (or standing) on -not over, but on- the body of a
(two-armed) supine Shiva on a cremation pyre. In some
versions, vultures and dogs are around, gnawing on bones.
Her one foot is on his hip and the other on his heart- and
in two of her hands Kali is holding her sword and a severed
male (bearded) head, and is adorned with usual assortrmnt of
body parts, her (blood-) red tongue hanging out. One of her
other hands is making what could be a reassuring gesture.
Shiva lies supine, still and naked beneath the Goddess'
feet, but shows no wounds or blood. What he does show
-usually- is an erection.

At first glance this is simply a beguiling (to me at least)
image of a powerful Female figure subduing a powerful male
figure. If this is all there is to it, fine, we have
addressed Kalika's agendum 1., have our role models set out,
and can move on to 2. and a brave new world. But people who
have looked at this particular Kali-Shiva 'scene' have noted
some contradictions and raised some questions:

While Kali has definitely, literally 'topped' the male god

Has she killed Shiva or not? Probably not. (Erection,
no blood or wounds, etc.)

Might Kali be =protecting= Shiva now that She has
subdued him? Her foot is over his heart, and her
gestures are far from menacing.

Is Kali in fact bringing Shiva to life? Was he a
corpse, ready for burning and the vultures, and She has
claimed and revived him, and, uhm, has his full
attention. She may be the source of renewal and
vitality in life as well as the destroyer, taking but
then giving back.

(In some parts of India (the Hindu parts of Bengal and
among the Tantric and matriarchal Nayar flower children
of the southern coast) Kali is widely worshipped and
loved, and has a much 'kinder, gentler,' nurturing
image. And why not?)

Kalika: You mentioned the K-s 'dance.' There are several
stories about Shiva entering dance competition with various
Goddesses, including Kali, and he usually wins and then
claims the Goddess as his bride. Kali is one of the fabled
winners.

What is the 'dance' -part of / prelude to the Kali Victrix
scene above, or is it a separate situation?

Could you go ahead and really set this whole thing up for
us? What did you first have in mind?
My bolt is shot, for now. :d

Powerful, powerful stuff.

* Lines from Kali hymn from Ramprasad Sen, (1982),
_Grace and Mercy in Her Wild Hair: Selected Poems to
the Mother Goddess_, trans. L Nathan and C. Seely
(Boulder, Colorado: Great Eastern Book Company)

--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:23:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kalika's paradigm: Kali and shiva
Message-Id: <199607081423.JAA08901@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anybody else read David Kinsley's _Hindu Goddesses_? If so, maybe
we can compare impressions via e-mail.
Other traditions may be of interest as well. Within Tibetan
Buddhism especially, there is Goddess Tara. Tara is also known as the
Cheater of Death, due to her ability to rescue her devotees from
destruction. Fiercer forms of the Goddess Tara can be found in the Hindu
Tantric writings.
Is anyone knowledgable about the rituals of subjugation with Goddess
Tara in Tibetan Buddhism?
Perhaps the Goddesses are so terrifying in aspect that Siva rolls
over and plays dead. A friend of mine had a bear encounter on a hike, and
basically did the same thing. It could be that Siva's erection is
signalling his willingness to give the Goddess whatever she wishes.

DL

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:14:59 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: A male wonders
Message-ID: <960708111457_352140793@emout13.mail.aol.com

i am a little confused. What are the Femsupremacy
rules for how a male becomes a slave of a specific
Womyn?. i am trying to abide by the teaching
of the SMC. i know that Wimmin should lead and rule
me ... but must i submit to the first Womyn who "takes"
me as her slave or is there a set procedure according to
which a male becomes available and is sort of
"auctioned off"? As Coyote Sings would say, "Women
know, the men may wonder." meretool


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 96 18:32:48 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-Id: <199607081632.SAA25793@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:09:31 +0100, Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

However I have a feeling that charity does not belong in the
investment marketplace. It distorts the market and investment
decisions. It wouldn't do any good in the long term to keep
alive an ailing company that just has no future, simply becasue
it was run by persons/organisation one liked/ approved of.

Who decides whether a company is a success or a failure? The consumer!
Consumers are becoming more aware of the actions and methods of the companies
behind the products for each day, and they vote with their feet. It's
happening right now! Companies who don't do right by society, employees,
environment or whatever will find it increasingly hard to operate in the
future. They may try to stifle the media to prevent the atrocities they
commit from being reported, but information wants to be free. A secret will
eventually seep out, if it's important enough.

This relates to female supremacy in that women in my opinion are more
sensitive to the above mentioned issues, and this will probably make women
more successful than men in managing companies in the future.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jul 96 15:49:21 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-ID: <960708194921_100410.1764_BHG137-1@CompuServe.COM

Hey Pat you spelled choose incorectly. But that happens when one loses it.

Inferiorm seems a very appropriate name for you.
I was angry enough about your previous post but this one tops it.

If you are interested in female supremacy or any form of civilised converse via
the
Internet then be polite. For a start, it's rude to shorten someone's name
without
their permission.

If you are not interested in female supremacy then get lost.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 96 22:05:12 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Fem. suprem."
Subject: InferiorM's activities.
Message-Id: <199607082004.WAA06258@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Why do people insist on posting their views on said subject to the list?
What do those posts contribute?

Send your comments to him/her/it in personal email. It works a lot better,
and doesn't clutter the list with pointless posts.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 17:05:40 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <31E1A254.2883@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I do not want any private posts from this guy...this is not a private
issue when someone is being so rude to one of us..it is a public issue.
and it seems everyone is coming forward and telling him of his rudeness
in a public way. and I appreciate it. I feel safe being myself on
this list. I will not feel safe if you Magnus tell people who are
speaking abusively to one of us to go to abuse that person privately...
PATRICIA and that is P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A...


Magnus Thelander wrote:

Why do people insist on posting their views on said subject to the list?
What do those posts contribute?

Send your comments to him/her/it in personal email. It works a lot better,
and doesn't clutter the list with pointless posts.

---


"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:27:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-Id: <199607082127.OAA14613@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1064

I feel safe being myself on
this list. I will not feel safe if you Magnus tell people who are
speaking abusively to one of us to go to abuse that person privately...
PATRICIA and that is P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A...


I did invite him to write to myself or Dee if he had a problem with any
of this, but, yes, as a rule it's best left public. I hope no one has had
any ugly private mail lately. That is a matter not only for Dee but for
the sender's postmaster.

And most email applicationss have Kill commands which block out selected
senders- wonderful features. Inquire locally.

Finally the best way to deal with public nuisances is to ignore them.
They feed on others' distress- the best way is to not show any, with
perhaps a forward of the offending mail to their postmaster.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jul 96 17:56:26 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <960708215626_101342.2030_GHW59-1@CompuServe.COM

Patricia wrote
I do not want any private posts from this guy...this is not a private
issue when someone is being so rude to one of us..it is a public issue.
and it seems everyone is coming forward and telling him of his rudeness
in a public way. and I appreciate it. I feel safe being myself on
this list. I will not feel safe if you Magnus tell people who are
speaking abusively to one of us to go to abuse that person privately...
PATRICIA and that is P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A...

Quite right Patricia
I wonder why people even bother to respond to what we in the UK call *a total pratt*.

Dennis (t.o.m)


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 142

Today's Topics:
Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: Kalika's paradigm: Kali and shiva
free cyberpatrol
man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Women's right to orgasm.
Re: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Re: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Re: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Rudeness
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:40:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Re: Womens Equity Mutual Fund
Message-Id: <199607082240.PAA24583@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3298

Magnus wrote

Who decides whether a company is a success or a failure? The consumer!

True, but not =only= the consumer. The owner(s)/stockholders/managers know
very well if they are 'successful' or not, and now are taking great care
to define what 'success' is. Certainly now it is now known to be more than
short-term profits, and the longevity of an enterprise involves such
considerations as quality, service, good will, environmental and social
responsibility, labor relations (even now), some of which are intangibles.
All of these items are the owners'/managers' decisions to make.

Consumers are not always saints, either. An ugly marketplace is a
reflection of the buyers' tastes, whatever we may think about the othe
power of advertising and image-manipulation. I haven't had a cigarette in
5 years, 5 months, 13 days, 11 hours and 17 minutes or so, but I still
consider myself a smoker who hooked himself, and I managed to smoke
something else long ago (and inhale deeply and often) with no advertising
at all. North Americans especially are addicted to petroleum and Japanese
consumers to old-growth timber, and no one yet seems serious about
alternative energy sources. We buy junk because it's =us=. It's the
coarseness of our tastes that shapes what the media serves us, and
instant gratification is a public duty in most modern cultures. Don't get
me started on Windows and GUIs and the Bob-culture. Bob is us. :P

As a tiny proprietor and stockholder (and one about to incorporate) I see
myself as a =partner= with everyone involved: consumers, suppliers,
co-contractors, government & community, etc. All are consulted, and all
had best consult me as well, or I'm gone. Forget competing pyramids and
clashing interest groups. That's corporate male-think, and it doesn't
work very well any more. It only worked when there were endless resources
to gobble up. The emerging entrepreneurial circle seems to work:
overlapping nets and circles, people sharing, cooperating, wheeling and
dealing, innovating, recycling, generally 'getting along,' as Randy King
begged us to do. That works. Given time, it may even save our butts.

Back to topic, WEMF is not an individual enterprise (in the
capitalization sense). It is, as advertised, a =mutual fund=, meaning
the managers try to make it a mix of the best (woman-positive) securities
around, and they (the WEMF traders) do buy and sell all the time.

This relates to female supremacy in that women in my opinion are more
sensitive to the above mentioned issues, and this will probably make women
more successful than men in managing companies in the future.

Oh, they already are, Magnus. You're right, in the future they will write
the script. ;]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 00:55:43 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-Id: <199607082255.AAA09247@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 17:05:40 -0700, Noble wrote:

I do not want any private posts from this guy...this is not a private

I didn't say, that you do.

issue when someone is being so rude to one of us..it is a public issue.
and it seems everyone is coming forward and telling him of his rudeness
in a public way. and I appreciate it. I feel safe being myself on

What is gained by repeatedly stating truisms? I expect any decent person
to agree, that noone should be treated rudely. Least of all you.

this list. I will not feel safe if you Magnus tell people who are
speaking abusively to one of us to go to abuse that person privately...

I never said anything like that. If you think so, read my post again.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:57:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Kalika's paradigm: Kali and shiva
Message-Id: <199607082257.PAA26327@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 924

David Land wrote (n part)

Perhaps the Goddesses are so terrifying in aspect that Siva rolls
over and plays dead. A friend of mine had a bear encounter on a hike, and
basically did the same thing. It could be that Siva's erection is
signalling his willingness to give the Goddess whatever she wishes.

He is sometimes associated with ascetic behavior, and his erection could
be seen as an offering of ritual chastity, of withholding seed (or of
deferring gratification). (It works for me, splendidly.)

Pity I don't know much more about any of this- willing to learn. Thanks
very much for the pointers and the questions.

:] c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:02:41 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: free cyberpatrol
Message-Id: <199607082355.XAA12470@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

This was in a newsletter called fabulous freebies and might
interest concerned parents......

FREE CyberPatrol Software to control adult
oriented access for children at:
http://www.cyberpatrol.com

Love to all,

David
.Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:02:42 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Message-Id: <199607082356.XAA12488@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

* Microsoft Corp. apologized and promised free software Friday
due to synonyms in its Spanish version of Word 6.0. thesaurus.
- "Indian" was synonymous with "savage" and "man-eater," and
synonyms for "lesbian" were "vicious" and "pervert."
_________________________________________________________________
__ This service is a product of Intelligent Network Concepts,
Inc. incinc@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/incinc/ (c) 1996
Intelligent Network Concepts, Inc.


Saw this today in the internet newspaper 'Daily Brief'

Film at 11.

Love to all,

David Stevenson.
.Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 01:00:18 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-Id: <199607082259.AAA09904@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:27:16 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

I did invite him to write to myself or Dee if he had a problem with any
of this, but, yes, as a rule it's best left public. I hope no one has had

I disagree. We don't want the kind of pointless flamewars here that
regularly transpire in the newsgroups, do we? Tell him off in private mail,
and if he persists, throw him off the list, and if necessary, notify his
postmaster.

Finally the best way to deal with public nuisances is to ignore them.

Exactly my point!

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 00:57:25 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-Id: <199607082256.AAA09526@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 08 Jul 96 17:56:26 EDT, OhEadhra wrote:

I wonder why people even bother to respond to what we in the UK call *a total pratt*.

That was my point exactly. Tell the pratt off in private mail, and if he
still doesn't get it, get him off the list.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:03:08 -0400
From: Inferiorm@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <960708190307_352611908@emout10.mail.aol.com

Kudos to you Dennis. i am *a total pratt*, or in more formal terms, *a total
prattica*.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:08:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-Id: <199607082308.QAA27383@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 455


Kudos to you Dennis. i am *a total pratt*, or in more formal terms, *a total
prattica*.

Well and politely said. And with some wit.

Can we now EVERYONE drop this?

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 19:12:25 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <31E1C009.6978@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

if I misread your post Magnus I apologize.
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 19:10:47 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <31E1BFA7.1D86@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Oh, I probably should not have responded at all, but sometimes my
Scot/MicMac temper gets the best of me....
Patricia

OhEadhra wrote:

Patricia wrote
I do not want any private posts from this guy...this is not a private
issue when someone is being so rude to one of us..it is a public issue.
and it seems everyone is coming forward and telling him of his rudeness
in a public way. and I appreciate it. I feel safe being myself on
this list. I will not feel safe if you Magnus tell people who are
speaking abusively to one of us to go to abuse that person privately...
PATRICIA and that is P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A...

Quite right Patricia
I wonder why people even bother to respond to what we in the UK call *a total pratt*.

Dennis (t.o.m)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 19:14:22 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <31E1C07E.5131@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I did not read your post wrong....if I had emailed this guy privately he
would have emailed me back privately and that is NOT where I wanted that
conversation to go ...
Patricia
Magnus Thelander wrote:


That was my point exactly. Tell the pratt off in private mail, and if he
still doesn't get it, get him off the list.

---


"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 01:57:47 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Women's right to orgasm.
Message-Id: <199607082357.BAA16996@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:06:59 -0700, Noble wrote:

This whole idea of this being a perversion is up-side-down logic. What
is more perverted..to be a woman who knows how she can reach
multiple..or even a single orgasm..
...who cannot, or is not allowed to tell her partner how it is done
(because it might damage his ego) and therefore lives her whole life
with him never reaching orgasm during sexual relations with him..or the
woman who tells the man how its done and the man who follows her
instructions. I would say the former is perversion, the latter is
healthy.

I agree. It's every woman's right to reach an orgasm during sexual
relations with her partner, if she so desires, and if he doesn't know how to
do it the way she wants it done, he'd better be prepared to be trained and
taught.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

ROTFL! Does anyone have Microsoft Word for Windows 5.0 or 6.0? Type zzzz
then do a spell check.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 20:33:25 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Message-ID: <31E1D305.542F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have Word 7...I will go try it right now...
Patricia

Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

Friends,

ROTFL! Does anyone have Microsoft Word for Windows 5.0 or 6.0? Type zzzz
then do a spell check.

Peace,

Barry

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 20:43:31 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Message-ID: <31E1D563.2F51@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

all I got from spellcheck was sex
most I've had in a long time..too
Patricia

Noble wrote:

I have Word 7...I will go try it right now...
Patricia

Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

Friends,

ROTFL! Does anyone have Microsoft Word for Windows 5.0 or 6.0? Type zzzz
then do a spell check.

Peace,

Barry

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:55:23 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Rudeness
Message-ID: <31E094BB.4A9C@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cast my vote for Patricia. Intolerance and outright arrogant rudeness is
not needed, especially from one of our sex. This is a ladies newsletter
and we are here by their graciousness. If you can't keep a civil tongue
in your mouth then you take a hike! The world may not respect and honor
the supremacy of women but by God we certainly should Here! Discuss the
issues, don't email someone who has told you not to, and be respectful.
We are graced with some very wise, intellectual, kind women on this list,
and remember, sometimes you don't know what you've got till it's gone.
Submit and you'll be a happier person. Don't and you'll learn the hard
way, that women are a mile ahead of you, and know things on ten levels to
your one. Deeper, Wider and Longer. If you can bend the knee, you may
be
granted a pardon! Straighten up, pay attention, and learn from coyote!
Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:01:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-Id: <199607090301.UAA00244@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 494

Inferiorm@aol.com wrote:

Hey Pat you spelled choose incorectly. But that happens when one loses it.

It seems that all I'm seeing from you is little catty remarks,
"Inferiorm@aol.com". Quit it.

Dee-Ann
List Admin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 21:05:29 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31E1DA89.391D@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sorceress--


I hate setting myself up as the paradigm for abused women,
HOWEVER: During my hotly contested and bitterly fought
divorce, my husband repeatedly took me to court to appeal
the judge's decisions regarding the division of marital
property. His contention was that I did not deserve the NY
state mandated 50% of his pension (NYPD HOTSHOT) on the
grounds that it was HIS pension, that HE worked for it,
and that my only contribution to our marriage was that I
bore him three children.

Is that fucking ironic or not? Or maybe just fucking
STOOPID? Can we even *say* "fuck" here?
CybErotiComm Online

I think the way many men think in regards to divorce or whatever is
selfishness on their part. My ex is over $26,000 behind in child support
and that's with child support enforcement garnishing (I'm not sure if
that's the correct word) his wages. He works lightly at a maintenance
job, and then makes about $3,000 under the table. He gets farther and
farther behind. He feels that he shouldn't have to support his child
because he doesn't live here any more. Thank the Goddess I don't need
his money to survive. It would be nice if my daughter could have more of
the lessons and tutors that I'd like to give her, but she is not deprived
in any sense of the word. I do just fine with my own business.

I think stoopid is more the idea, but I still think it's utter
selfishness on their parts...isn't that part of the reason we got rid of
them in the first place?

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:14:17 -0400
From: Inferiorm@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gender)
Message-ID: <960709001415_352982452@emout07.mail.aol.com

i am very sorry i have caused anyone on the list hurt. i am a strong beleiver
in female superiority. i have submitted to a Woman in whom i place my trust
and above all i obey. Things can overwhelm me at times and an open medium as
this tempts unbridled venting. my apologies to the list and to Patricia.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:49:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id: <199607090549.BAA09813@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello All!

Well, I guess I'm just lucky -or see things differently. While I have met
my share of abussive men in my lifetime, including my ex-husband, most of my
friends have been and will always be, men. I meet the most interesting,
kind, understanding, sensitive and supporting men, including my own sweet
sub. In my experience, I find that women can be just as offensive as some
of the men posted about. Let's be fair.

Regards,

Lorraine

it is the rule rather than the exception...that is why we are skeptical
when we hear about all these really good men.
Patricia

peter wrote:

I knew someone would post a message along these lines.

I knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met nothing but abuse
from men all her life.

I guess I was very fortunate. I grew up in a family that was full of
nothing but love and understanding. It was a family straight out of Leave
It To Beaver. There was absolutely no abuse of any kind. And it was the
same way with my friends. It was that or they did a terrific job of hiding
the skeletons in their closets.

My father was a kind compassionate man who went beyond his means to provide
for me. He was my best friend. He was fully at ease with high-powered
politicians or bums on the street. And the most important thing he taught
me was to be respectful of others. To overlook their shortcomings. When you
scratch deep enough, you'll find a sensitive human.

And he wasn't the only man on earth to do this. And I'm sure that Coyote
and myself are not the only two men on earth who feel this way.

I'm awfully sorry that the men you have come across have not been ethical,
moral and decent. And I can see how you feel that way.

I can't offer you any advice, only my deepest regrets that this has
happened to you.

Peter


FEfor something. Or at least some men are decent people.

I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.

FEI really don't understand why people would say that men are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?
Yes.

Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate,
understanding,
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 143

Today's Topics:
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Women sharing resources
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Mailing list for alt.sex.femdom posts
male wondering
Re: another (Education Stat)
Prenuptual/Cohabitation Agreements
Re: male wondering
Re: Prenuptual/Cohabitation Agreements
Re: Women sharing resources
Re: Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:56:10 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-ID: <31E2028A.2218@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

Actually, I just heard the 'danger music' and thought I needed
to ask this particular question: What is the level of email
generated by these two groups? I'm getting on the average of
about 40 messages a day between femsuprem and my personal friends...
I may just lurk there for a while, and decide later. At any rate,
thank you for the information.



"SubMiss"

In both cases they are not fully automated lists so
just send an Email and ask to subscribe.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:35:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Women sharing resources
Message-Id: <199607090735.AAA12993@netcom13.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1659

Jet wrote

Thank the Goddess I don't need
his money to survive. It would be nice if my daughter could have more of
the lessons and tutors that I'd like to give her, but she is not deprived
in any sense of the word.

Jet, is it possible that you could network/circle with several other
single mothers (of daughters only, perhaps) and jointly pool the costs for
several good tutors in a small tutorial group? This might even have a
small advantage over simply a one on one tutorial realtionship in allowing
members of a small (5?) group to interact. Just a thought. :]

On another note (to all): we have been going back and forth about the
Womens' Equity Mutual Fund. A possible more 'local' alternative could be
the Investment Club, now enjoying some success in the US. Members, hawks
and doves, deliberate the pros and cons of each decision and pool their
risks. Often they engage and investment counsellor at small individual
cost. The most successful to date is (of course) the Beardstown Ladies'
Investement Club, who are now publishing their own investment books.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, hey.
;]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 01:35:44 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <31E219E0.339@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

OhEadhra wrote:

Patricia wrote
I do not want any private posts from this guy...this is not a private
issue when someone is being so rude to one of us..it is a public issue.
and it seems everyone is coming forward and telling him of his rudeness
in a public way. and I appreciate it. I feel safe being myself on
this list. I will not feel safe if you Magnus tell people who are
speaking abusively to one of us to go to abuse that person privately...
PATRICIA and that is P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A...

Quite right Patricia
I wonder why people even bother to respond to what we in the UK call *a total pratt*.

Dennis (t.o.m)

You are all correct. All this person wants is the attention... Stooopid
way to get attention if you ask me...

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:19:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: juu@netcom.com (Jay Doubleyou)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Mailing list for alt.sex.femdom posts
Message-Id: <199607091019.DAA20671@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 7751

On 02 Jul 96, OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM wrote (in part):
I do hope that JW will not object, but I remember when Compuserve banned
access to the Femdom newsgroup I sent a mail to JW to ask how I could
read the postings. He kindly replied with instructions as to how ,
postings to the group could reach my mail box.
I suggest, therefore, if your provider cannot access Femdom, you email
JW at :
juu@netcom.com (if it is still the same)
asking for instructions.

Sorry for the delay in responding to this. I'm very much behind in
reading this mailing list and in answering e-mail.

For those who cannot read alt.sex.femdom directly, I do operate a mailing
list which distributes posts via e-mail. If anyone is interested in
subscribing to this list (known as juulist-l), send me an e-mail letting
me know that you wish to do so, have read the information file, and are
over 18 years of age.

The information file may be found below.

-JW

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Enjoy.

=======================================================================
[ 22 January 1996 ]

***END TEXT FILE***

--
juu@netcom.com * juu on IRC (#femdom) * Exclusive property of Miladi N
"Give it freely. And completely. To my lady."
-from "For My Lady" by The Moody Blues (1972)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:15:24 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: male wondering
Message-ID: <960709101523_233821018@emout17.mail.aol.com

(i) Why don't we males start making reparation to Wimmin
for 10,000 years of male rebellion against The Goddess
and oppression of Wimmin by contributing to Wimmin's
equity funds and businesses?

(2) Is there some over-all Femsupreme authority from whom
we males can take guidance? With all due respect, there
seems to be a lack of focus in the Movement.

(3) Why don't Wimmin exploit male labor more by creating
Femsupreme businesses in which Wimmin lead and
profits go into the Femsupreme Movement?
There are many male subs who are successful in the
business world ... why shouldn't they be harnessed in a
way which is financially beneficial to Wimmin.

Forgive me if i have spoken out of turn. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:26:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: another (Education Stat)
Message-Id: <199607091426.HAA11339@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia / Noble wrote:
According to the National Education Association, in 1954, when single
parent households made up less than 10 % of families, only 47% of those
students who entered high school..graduated or completed high school.

In 1996 when single parent households are nearly more than 40% of
families, 89% of students who enter high school..graduate or complete
high school.....

hmmm...someones doing something better.
Patricia....in statsville now

I'm not sure I'd agree that someone is doing something better now - recent
trends in public education seem to be to push kids through and graduate them
regardless of how much they have or have not learned. True, more students
dropped out of high school in 1954 - but not all that many graduated without
being able to read and write.

Something else not reflected by the statistics alone is how many children
circa 1996 dropped before ever entering high school. I expect the number
would be rather higher than in 1954, which skews the NEA's statistics
quite a bit.

FWIW, I'm not saying a thing either way on the single parent / two parent
issue here, except to say that I think a child's future depends more on the
individuals who are the parenting roles, than on whether there's one, two,
or more parents, or what the parent's genders are (f/m, f, m, f/f, or m/m).
Rather, I'm trying to point out that the specific statistics really don't
present a good basis for supporting any issue or arguments.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a mouth of fire.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:40:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Prenuptual/Cohabitation Agreements
Message-Id: <199607091440.JAA28340@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In a female dominant household there still may need to be clarity
about the obligations being assumed by the parties in the relationship. I
wonder if anyone has been successful drafting provisions which worked to
their satisfaction, concerning finances, real estate, rights to separate
property, and whatnot.

I am not seeking information about "slave contracts" which are
essentially
fantasy.

DL

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male wondering
Message-Id: <199607091453.HAA13008@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Xymeretool wrote:
(i) Why don't we males start making reparation to Wimmin
for 10,000 years of male rebellion against The Goddess
and oppression of Wimmin by contributing to Wimmin's
equity funds and businesses?

Speaking for myself, I don't accept responsibility for others actions,
far less for those actions taken by people long dead. I support Women;
whether it be in getting a fair opportunity in society and the workplace,
or in their having a right to be outspoken and independent, as well as in
achieving more of a female influence in government.... But I never bought
into the "Original Sin" trip, I don't buy into the Guilt Trip. My sins,
in deed or in lack or action, are my own, as is my karmic burden. 10,000
years of global oppression, against Women or against nature and men, isn't
part of that burden.

(2) Is there some over-all Femsupreme authority from whom
we males can take guidance? With all due respect, there
seems to be a lack of focus in the Movement.

Heh. Central authority is rather a 'male' concept and tradition, don't
you think? Patriarchal systems insist on hierarchal power structures to
which all are expected to conform to, and obey. That's one of the reasons
why many men, as well as women, don't appreciate the legacy of male domi-
nated culture and society - we choose not to conform to artificial roles
insisted upon by some "over-all authority". And if there doesn't seem to
be a focus, perhaps it's because of a great depth and scope of vision?

(3) Why don't Wimmin exploit male labor more by creating
Femsupreme businesses in which Wimmin lead and
profits go into the Femsupreme Movement?
There are many male subs who are successful in the
business world ... why shouldn't they be harnessed in a
way which is financially beneficial to Wimmin.

Why don't Wimmin just exploit males, period? Perhaps because some of them,
even Dominant or FemaleSupremacist, actually -like- males, at least some of
those males, and prefer to form partnerships with those they like? Even if
it is a partnership in which She has the leadership.

Not to mention that some, possibly many, of those successful male subs are
unwilling to simply be harnessed like a draught horse by a farmer? There's
an element of choice involved, on both sides. If not, it's good ole boy
exploitation and abuse, even if it's by a woman.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:07:15 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Prenuptual/Cohabitation Agreements
Message-ID: <960709120715_353379171@emout07.mail.aol.com

Many slave contracts are fantasy. For one thing, they
are not legally enforceable. But it is possible for a Womyn
and male to discuss relationship rules and to observe
them in all of their dealings with each other. Loyalty of
the male is what makes the arrangement enforceable.
If your Womyn rules your heart ... then the arrangement
is stronger than the law. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 18:32:13 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Women sharing resources
Message-Id: <199607091711.TAA26779@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:35:14 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

the Investment Club, now enjoying some success in the US. Members, hawks
and doves, deliberate the pros and cons of each decision and pool their
risks. Often they engage and investment counsellor at small individual
cost. The most successful to date is (of course) the Beardstown Ladies'

An excellent idea. The investment councellors employed by banks often
recommend the alternative that the banks makes most money by providing. Not
the one that's most benificial to the customer. I.e. banks rarely recommend
stocks, since they make more money, if their customer invests in the bank's
own funds, which then invest in stocks.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132
Message-Id: <199607091723.KAA00734@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 8100

She's baaaaaaaack. :)

Ronald Forster wrote:

To those of you who feel that sats may not not mean anything; my question
is how then do we define a problem? Not by single cases, my 10 year old
daughter lives with her mom about 2\3's of time and the rest with me. She
is a stright "A" student and has more problems than any other 10 year old
going on 18. Her mom and I may not care for each other's company but as
a rule we do work together for our daugther's best intrest.

I think part of the problem is that all of your stats present only a
single mother case. What about families where it's just the father
raising the kids? Also, you spoke from a strictly het perspective.
What about families with two woman parents, or two man parents? Be
careful when presenting statistics mixed with opinions. It's hard to
tell in your original post what was your opinion, and what came from a
report you were stating.

From the U.S. Department of Health and Human Studies, Nation Centerfor
Health Statistics (sample size 17,100):

Children living with a single mother are 375% more likely to need
professional treatmentfor emotional or behavioral problems and are almost
twice as likely to repeat grade of school, is more likely to suffer
chronic asthma, frequent headaches,and\or bedwetting, develop a stammeror
speech defect, suffer from anxiety or depression and be dignosed as
hyperactive.

What about single fathers? It would be interesting to see figures on
how much the mothers in the families studied had to work, and what
child care options they could afford.

Note that after controlling for income, no significant differences were
found from the main study. Indeed in a few cases higher income resulted
in more problems. Again a note from my personal life. Step fathers did
not seem to make differance in most areas (except for increased family
income) my ex's husband, even if we are not "beer drinking buddies" seems
to be a good guy and works with my ex and me.

Exactly. The problem is that women still make less than men, so child
care, tutors, etc. become unaffordable. Add deadbeat fathers who
won't pay child support, and you get moms who are working so hard to
put food on the table they sadly don't have time to help their kids
with homework, sit and chat about problems, etc. Of course, this is
not true for all single mothers. Once again, what about single
fathers?

I think that step parents add a whole list of complications,
especially if the new parent tries too hard to adopt the "parent" role
right away. Or, they don't like kids but wanted to marry the mom
regardless.

Another study, by John Guidubaldi, Ph.D., former president of the school
psychologist association, has found overwhelming evidence of poor social
and academical adjustments of children from single parent homes. In 21
of 27 social adjustments measures and 8 of 9 academic measures, children
from single parent homes showed lower performance.The results were far
more pronounced for boys than girls (no reason given as to why, however
it is intresting to note that 91% of the children live in mother custody
homes).

What kind of child care and tutors could these single parents afford?
I bet close to nil. How many hours did the parents have to work to
just be able to feed their families? Let's focus on the reasons,
folks, not pointing fingers.

As far as why it was more pronounced for the boys, _IMO_ boys need
more guidance in growing up than girls do. Especially in
socialization. Watch groups of kids of each sex....girls tend to be
more cooperative and discuss things, trying to make sure everyone
participates. Boys are more combative and heirarchical, with those
who can't "make it" generally being the ones hung up on a hook in the
locker room, etc. Not that young girls are angels, some of them are
cruel, but I'm talking in general. Whether all of this is cultural or
genetic I won't discuss here. :)

On child abuse:

With confirmed cases (not always convicted) and looking at those cases
with a parent being the abuser, the Texas Department of Protective and
Regulatory Services(DPRS), Child Protective Services (CPS) 1991 found
that mothers commited 68% and fathers 32% of child abuse. This data
comfirms other data from previous years, not only in Texas but other
states as well (I suggest you look up your states stats.)

What kinds of child abuse? What severity? Physical or emotional or
both? Bruises? Broken bones? Death? Multiple personality disorder?
Those numbers mean nothing without context.

Child Support:

One or two of the responses to my post stated that child support is not
paid in 70% ? or 90% ? of the time. No source was given (well maybe MS.
mag but really) so I going to make a big leap and assume the numbers
come from a report, not a study!!, put out by Elaine Sorensen of tthe
Urban Insitute. This report assumed that $ 48,000,000.00 should be paid
each year in child support. The only problem is that in 1991 only bit
less than $16,000,000.00 in child support was court ordered, of which
$14,000,000.00 was paid. Note that another study (1992 GAO) showed that
15% of unpaid court ordered child support was not paid because the
fathers were dead. Real honest to God (or Godest) deadbeats.

In some places, men can't get their hunting or driver's licenses
removed if it's on their record that they're behind on their child
support. More states/countries should adopt these kinds of policies.
Hits them where it hurts, no?

Jail Time:

Again I'm going to use Texas numbers because that's what I have at hand
but if you want to do the research you will find that the numbers match
from state to state (I will admit that in this one area some states will
come in much higher or lower than Texas).

In 1990, 80% of the children committed to the Texas Youth Commission
came from single parent homes. The trend is on the rise, increasings
1% over the past few years. TYC= Jail. Other states report the same.

Once again, how much child care could these parents afford? How many
of them were at the poverty level?

[a bit snipped for brevity's sake]

Now for every one:

My point in my post was that children need both parents, the stats. above
don't show that that moms are BAD people, but that kids do best when both
parents are involved in their lives. Are their excecptions to this? No
question. Do both parents need to be perfect? No I don't think so. I'm
not tthe best dad in the world but I try damn hard. To those reading this
your not the best dad\mom in the the world. My only hope is that my kids
and your kids think that you are the best Dad\Mom in the world.

What about m/m families and f/f families? I think part of the problem
is that some parents use their kids as petty weapons against each
other during a divorce. Some parents just vanish and abandon
everyone. Some don't want to see their spouse anymore, so leave the
family's lives. In these kinds of cases, the kid is generally left
feeling there is something wrong with them that one of their parents
didn't love them.

I also submit that part of this is _cultural_. We are raised to feel
a two parent family is normal, and a one parent family is wrong.
Imagine growing up in a family where you have no control over whether
the folks stay together, and suddenly live in a situation that's
looked down upon by lots of folks with high positions and big mouths.

Dee-Ann

PS: It was an unnecessary waste of bandwidth, my resources, and the
resources of the folks on this list to quote the entire huge digest
article like you did. Please, folks, remember to remove the text
you're not responding to.


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 144

Today's Topics:
Re: Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132
I'm sorry to do this like this..
Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Re: another (Education Stat)
Re: POWER
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: POWER
Re: another (Education Stat)
Re: Women's right to orgasm.
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: another (Education Stat)
"Standing up" for people (was re: InferiorM's activities)
Response to Welcome
Life and the Religious Reich

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 13:43:18 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132
Message-ID: <31E2C466.6B86@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

welcome back!!!

he said:

Children living with a single mother are 375% more likely to need
professional treatmentfor emotional or behavioral problems and are almost
twice as likely to repeat grade of school, is more likely to suffer
chronic asthma, frequent headaches,and\or bedwetting, develop a stammeror
speech defect, suffer from anxiety or depression and be dignosed as
hyperactive.

I ask, but just because they live with single mothers .. does not mean
that single mothers are the cause of all these things. could not
anxiety, headaches, stammerring, bedwetting and depression be caused by
other children and adults, the school system itself...t.v., mags etc.
that continually tell them there is something wrong with them because
they do not have a father in the house. It may have nothing to do with
the mother at all...probably does not....i hate this women trashing..it
is so easy to do....

could not illnesses be caused by the fact that many of these women,
rather than being on welfare...(where they could be trashed even more
for not being good parents and being on welfare)..which has health
insurance they have to work one or two low paying jobs and neither has
health insurance.

PATRICIA

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:54:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: snapper
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: I'm sorry to do this like this..
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

forgive the intrusion and for sounding like a newbie..i'm going away for
several months and need to unsubscribe but I have lost my original letter
in a bug that attacked our mail program. Please let me know and you can
answer me privately to do so..thank you and my apologies again.

______________________________________________________________________________
There are those who claim that life is but a temporary thing, a gossamer
veil, a mere shadow in the sunlight of eternity. Then there are those
like me who know that life is continuous, unending, a returning cycle of
what we choose to make it. We take that which is good and hold it dear
in our hearts and take that which is bad and use it to mold our character.
______________________________________________________________________________

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:18:35 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Message-Id: <199607091818.LAA10452@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote David Land:

I wonder to what extent menopause may enable women to be wiser.

Timber Wolf wrote:

Sarah Blaffer Hrdy---surely the most sensitive and insightful of all the
great female primate researchers---noted during her investigation of the
Indian holy langur monkeys that the only females who tried to stand up
to the infanticidal troop males were those who were past or nearly past
reproductive age. Whilst their younger sisters (or rather nieces and
daughters; as amongst the similarly infanticidal lions, the females are all
related) have more to gain in terms of genes transmitted to the next
generation by trying to get the male to impregnate them and thus to get
new offspring than by resistance, the old females who do not have this
possibility could gain more by actually saving a grandchild or a niece's
young. So they actually do try to put up some resistance.


My guess is that the younger females have no problem "trying to get the male
to impregnate them." When she's fertile, he's going to want to have sex with
her. Fighting with the males is physically dangerous, however, and there is
always the possibility of a fatal injury. The same dynamic works as with the
above assumption--older females will not reproduce later, and younger ones
will reproduce if they are alive and well.

As an interesting side-note, I recall that in some primate groups with
infanticidal males (sorry, I don't remember the species at the moment), the
females in heat mate with the dominant male, then sneak off and mate with
all the other males too. Apparently a male is less likely to kill the
offspring of a female he has had sex with. By sleeping around, the females
are covering all bases.



There may exist a relict behaviour of this kind in (wo)man. It is at
least easy to see that older women (in our country we call them
generically 'aunties') are a good deal more determined and even
ruthless than young women, and very probably than they were when
they were young. Do not try to play games with an 'auntie'! She has
nothing to gain by trying to please a male at any price, and she has
learnt that he is not a higher kind of being.

So essentially, if wisdom it be, it may be partly inborn and partly of
an exceedingly practical nature. And it may be that there are strong
forms of biological logic counteracting sisterly solidarity as long as
there is ovulation. (Which does not mean that it would necessarily
be impossible; we are not the prisoners of our biologys, but we show
it disrespect at our own peril.)


I have to disagree with your statement that there are, "forms of biological
logic counteracting sisterly solidarity as long as there is ovulation."

I once read about two neighboring baboon populations. They were genetically
similar (and often interbred), but had very different social behavior. In
one group the females had strong social/family ties. In this group the
physically larger males didn't get away with bullying the females because
the females cooperated to defend against them. In the other group there was
no system of female interelationships and the males were regularly abusive.
Females from the more "patriarchal" group were occasionally integrated into
the neighboring baboon troop. But the "sisterly" females couldn't be
persuaded to stay in the abusive group and always left. (By the way, no
mention was made of ANY of the females having trouble getting males to mate
with them.)

I was told when I was growing up that women just couldn't get along
together. This is one of the most useful lies of patriarchy. "Divide and
conquer" is no joke, it works. Once we get this lie out of our heads, women
tend to get along with each other a lot better than men do.

Yours from the Sisterhood,
--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:55:57 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: another (Education Stat)
Message-Id: <199607091855.LAA11528@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Lawless wrote (in part):

FWIW, I'm not saying a thing either way on the single parent / two parent
issue here, except to say that I think a child's future depends more on the
individuals who are the parenting roles, than on whether there's one, two,
or more parents, or what the parent's genders are (f/m, f, m, f/f, or m/m).
Rather, I'm trying to point out that the specific statistics really don't
present a good basis for supporting any issue or arguments.


Excellent point! One of the many problems with statistics is that people
immediately begin to assign cause-and-effect to them without reference to
other factors or any real proof. And when it comes to human relationships
"proof" may be impossible!

On the one/two parent issue I can only speak from my own experience, which
definitely echoes Lawless's opinion. The specific person or people parenting
a child is definitely a bigger factor than the number of parents, their
gender, sexual preference, etc. That said, I would like to add that I do
think child rearing is _easier_ with help. Some of the best adjusted and
most creative kids I've met have been raised in communal settings where
there were more adults than just their parent/s to take care of them.

--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: POWER
Message-Id: <199607092018.NAA00846@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 470

Inferiorm@aol.com wrote:

Power and it's Foundress Ms. Steele is nothing but a scam. Save your money
boys.

Please explain why you feel it's a scam. Anyone can spout
accusations.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 09 Jul 96 17:59:51 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: InferiorM's activities.
Message-ID: <960709215950_100410.1764_BHG67-1@CompuServe.COM

From Magnus - amongst other comments:
What is gained by repeatedly stating truisms? I expect any decent person to
agree, that noone should be treated rudely. Least of all you.

I haven't been around here long, but I already hold a great deal of respect for
the
regular members of our community. When someone that I admire greatly, such as
Patricia, comes under attack, I will continue to offer my total support. I
wanted her
to know the backing she has from her friends on this.

I think it's important for a community such as ourselves to show solidarity. If
I've been
insulted I feel comforted if my friends agree with me and the fact that Patricia

appreciated our support it is justification enough for me.

Sorry if you found it a wasted read Magnus, but that is in the nature of a group

such as ours. I happen to find the religious references tedious myself, but we
all have our different interests.

Rest assured that should you be subject to a similar attack, then you will also
receive my support.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:14:35 -0400
From: Inferiorm@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: POWER
Message-ID: <960709181343_430701005@emout13.mail.aol.com

About two years ago, at the beginnig of my efforts to become involved with
female supremacy in a personal way i answered Power's add in the Village
Voice newspaper. i received their literature which was valid and informative.
However the main requirement of male membership is to pledge money every
month which i did. The organization remained a faceless box number. There
were many plans but no substance.Subsequently i was able to gain a
relationship with a local lifestyle Mistress who, during our initial
interview, told me that this organization was taking advantage of me as they
were with other subs she came in contact with. Her words were "these things
are usually scams". My Mistress in turn does not ask money. i give Her eight
hours of of concentrated effort each week aimed totally at improving her way
of life. i hope this answers Your question.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:25:50 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: another (Education Stat)
Message-Id: <199607092333.XAA12826@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I'm happy to report that this seems more like refreshing cool
air than the product of a fiery mouth. (see wolf sig)

It seems Lawless is bending over backwards!

I could certainly learn from this technique of clarification.

Love to all,

David Stevenson.

On 9 July 96 at 7:26, Chase Vogelsberg said

FWIW, I'm not saying a thing either way on the single
parent / two parent issue here, except to say that I think
a child's future depends more on the individuals who are
the parenting roles, than on whether there's one, two, or
more parents, or what the parent's genders are (f/m, f, m,
f/f, or m/m). Rather, I'm trying to point out that the
specific statistics really don't present a good basis for
supporting any issue or arguments.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a mouth of
fire. -- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com /
lawless@eskimo.com) -- -- Some angels didn't have that far
to fall.
. .Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:25:52 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women's right to orgasm.
Message-Id: <199607092333.XAA12804@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:06:59 -0700, Noble wrote:

This whole idea of this being a perversion is up-side-down
logic. What is more perverted..to be a woman who knows
how she can reach multiple..or even a single orgasm..
...who cannot, or is not allowed to tell her partner how
it is done (because it might damage his ego) and therefore
lives her whole life with him never reaching orgasm during
sexual relations with him..or the woman who tells the man
how its done and the man who follows her instructions. I
would say the former is perversion, the latter is healthy.


Due to 'perversity' of the internet or my own stupidity, I'm not
certain which. I never saw this post until Magnus quoted it.

I would agree with Patricia and further say that the former
gives perversity a bad name. With regard to the latter, my
Mother once confiscated books called "Sex manners for Men" and
"Sex Manners for Advanced Lovers" when I was but a wee child of
fourteen. :-)

She subsequently admitted to me that she had learnt a lot but
was still reluctant to give back the books as she considered I
was too young. After some counselling on my part, we managed to
reveal that she had never had an orgasm, but was quite happy
with the warm feeling she got when Dad cuddled her.

Education seems to be the key as opposed to censorship.
I never did get those books back, but being a stubborn child I
bought others like it.

Love to all,
David.
. .Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:25:52 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
CC:
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607092333.XAA12791@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 8 July 96 at 23:56, Jet said

Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

Actually, I just heard the 'danger music'

Actually we didn't write that. But I did make the original
posting with the address of The Pearls.

However I'm in hot water over doing so. I have offended the
list-mistress.

Please will no-one repeat my blunder by quoting or replying to
this post without removing the address.

Love to all,

David Stevenson.
. .Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:20:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: another (Education Stat)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Phoenix wrote:

On the one/two parent issue I can only speak from my own experience, which
definitely echoes Lawless's opinion. The specific person or people parenting
a child is definitely a bigger factor than the number of parents, their
gender, sexual preference, etc. That said, I would like to add that I do
think child rearing is _easier_ with help. Some of the best adjusted and
most creative kids I've met have been raised in communal settings where
there were more adults than just their parent/s to take care of them.

Here Lady Phoenix unmasks the true motivations and intentions of the
so-called "Family Values" crowd. If they are so insistent that two
parents are better than one why would they not support the concept of
the "Commune" (many adults) over that of the "Nuclear Family"?
They don't give the proverbial FRA about the children, my
Friends. They just understand that the "Father Knows Best" sort of
family is the best one to maintain the patriarchal system. If the learned
comments on this newslist are any indication, methinks they are in for
surprises in the future.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:39:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: "Standing up" for people (was re: InferiorM's activities)
Message-Id: <199607092339.QAA01014@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2027

Jon Woolven wrote:


I haven't been around here long, but I already hold a great deal of respect for
the
regular members of our community. When someone that I admire greatly, such as
Patricia, comes under attack, I will continue to offer my total support. I
wanted her
to know the backing she has from her friends on this.

You can let people know they have backing privately, instead of
publically. I hate it when someone attacks someone on a list or
newsgroup and 50 people chime in to "defend." Personally, I don't
need people to defend me right and left, flooding a list or group in
the process. I can take care of myself, thanks. ;)

I tend to speak up publically in defense of people when it seems that
folks can't tell the attack is unfounded. Or, if it gets out of
hand. Or, if the person _asks_ that I say something publically.
Also, since I'm the list admin, I have extra reason to step in on
occasion if things get out of hand.

Just as an example of the kind of problem I'm talking about, one day I
was hanging out on an IRC channel, and some guy I didn't know came
onto the channel. A woman started sniping at the guy, I assume they
had a relationship that went bad from the conversation. All of a
sudden, one of her subs joins in. Meanwhile, the guy being attacked
was just agreeing he was a shit. I msged the sub, and he went on
about how he has to "defend his Mistress." Bull...she didn't need his
help. She started the attack, and the other guy wasn't even defending
himself!

I'd say that before folks start posting en masse in someone's
"defense," they should stop and consider whether or not this person
really needs defending. If you're not sure, write to them and express
your support.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:52:05 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kalika
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Response to Welcome
Message-Id: <199607100052.AAA15282@netbox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Welcome, Kalika,,,

Thank you, I am enjoying this list very much already.

Wah! You seem to have blessed us with both a well-conceived
paradigm for Female Supremacist inquiry and about a year's
worth of discussion threads.

I was just trying to see what might be of interest; what might be old hat;
and also indicate some of my own interests at the same time.

Kalika: You mentioned the K-s 'dance.'
What is the 'dance' -part of / prelude to the Kali Victrix
scene above, or is it a separate situation?

The Kali / shiva "dance" is a vast subject, and eludes to *many* things.
What we may get into, only time and the other list members will tell.
However, here, I was "primarily" using this term to refer to the
inter-relationship / inter-action of the Feminine Principle (Kali) and the
male principle (shiva), and the way in which this inter-action does and or
can, play out in day to day life, as well as setting the stage for a
discussion of future roles / relationship of these two principles, with the
basis for any such discussion, grounded in an overview / paradigm of the
reality of Creation... the will of the Divine Creatrix ... the purpose and
function of the male principle... the *True* reality of the Feminine
Principle as it expresses Itself, here in the physical plane (as being one
of Divinity, Sacredness, Holiness ... meaning Wimmin, simply because they
are Wimmin, *are* the physical embodiment of the Divine Creatrix, here in
the physical plane, and therefore, are and have, the attributes of the
Feminine Principle, as just noted, and that physical plane relationships
should be based on both the knowledge of this and the ardent desire on both
parties to make it so).

Could you go ahead and really set this whole thing up for
us? What did you first have in mind?

Well, a start has been made.

My bolt is shot, for now. :d

Ah, the curse of male sexuality is it not
orgasmic reality of Wimmin ... just an example of basic differences and
attributes.

Greetings and Dark Moon Blessings to All,

kalika@netbox.com


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:40:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Life and the Religious Reich
Message-Id: <199607100140.SAA00572@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3393

Barry wrote:

Here Lady Phoenix unmasks the true motivations and intentions of the
so-called "Family Values" crowd. If they are so insistent that two
parents are better than one why would they not support the concept of
the "Commune" (many adults) over that of the "Nuclear Family"?
They don't give the proverbial FRA about the children, my
Friends. They just understand that the "Father Knows Best" sort of
family is the best one to maintain the patriarchal system. If the learned
comments on this newslist are any indication, methinks they are in for
surprises in the future.

Molodyets, Barry! :D :D :D

The Religious Reich insists on labelling itself 'Pro-Life' and
'Pro-Family' when it is no such thing. Every single social measure
these people propose (or more accurately, oppose) relates is about
keeping Women (and children, and all of Nature) down. I sometimes
think they have no other agendum at all. Not one. Everything these
people promote is based on mens' fear of Women and their Mystery.

The rest is a smokescreen, and the gross misappropriation of a
legacy they neither care about nor even dimly understand.

I wish I could share your optimism about their early eclipse,
but I don't see it happening any time soon: the world is daily
getting more complex, and that's a threat to many, perhaps most
people. Many people respond to complexity -which is scary, no
doubt- by grasping for simple answers quickly implemented, or by
alienation (itself a simple answer). Ayatollahs promising a
speedy deliverance from the responsibilities of life and citizenship-
especially when they can point a bony finger at the 'Other'- have
always been popular. What makes them especially dangerous now is
accessible technology and the fact that we really are in the
enviromnental 'last and evil days' (thanks mostly to manhood's
terrible stewardship of our Home).

Now, we can all sit here and feel good about aware we are of these
people and the evil they do, but what, really, can we do about them?
Here we're simply preaching to the choir, as it were :)

The solutions are local, I think: Beyond simply living an exemplary
life (in my case quite a stretch), watch what these folks are doing
locally and head them off there. In the US, they are targeting and
infiltrating school boards and other local basic institutions
while many 'enlightened' folk (such as perhaps my precious self) are
just too busy or too turned off to do anything or get involved. If
the Religious Reich wins in the US, it will be because we let them.
This no doubt applies to any diverse democracy anywhere.

Permit me an archaic sexist usage in order to quote someone (who?)
spoke up agaist the Nazis and the Holocaust:

"All that is required for Evil to triumph
is for good men to do nothing."

--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela