Take care
everyone,
Mitch G.

P.S. - I'm normally pretty reserved, so why do I suddenly feel like shouting
"Down with the Man!"?


thank you Spirit Wind.
Patricia

Spirit Wind wrote:

Just a note to say if you left there would be a hole in our newsletter
large enough to drive a tracter trailer through! In two words I think
your THE BEST! Hope you always feel free to be you, we like you just the
way you redheaded are! Men are growing and changing and not in small
measure because of women like you. Traceys relationship was abusive and
rectal orafices abound in both sexes. We are trying to build a better
world where racism, and abuse are discouraged not condoned. We all have
to submit to each other some time or we would have anarchy. Some of us

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 145

Today's Topics:
Re: Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132
# of Parents
evan
[Fwd: Re: # of Parents]
Re: male wondering
Re: male wondering
Dominant women
Lady Cristina
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Re: Life and the Religious Reich
Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Re: Life and the Religious Reich
Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Re: I'm sorry to do this like this..
Re: Life and the Religious Reich

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 18:50:53 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Morte femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #132
Message-ID: <31E30C7D.6664@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noble wrote:

I agree with Patricia... What about the deadbeat Dads that are giving
their children the message that they are not worth the support... That
because they are living with their mothers and their mothers would not
submit to their abuse, cheating or whatever the reason for the divorce,
that they don't have to pay for their children. That sends an even
bigger message if you ask me... My Dad doesn't care enough about my
neeeds and has literally, emotionally and financially abandoned me... I
have heard of many divorced and divorced and remarried fathers who don't
ever visit their children. My ex has a son that he hadn't seen since the
boy was 4 years old and never paid a lick of child support. The only
reason I get anything at all (he's over $27,000 behind as of this month),
is the Child Support Enforcement garnishes what little wages he makes
legally. It is not only the women's responsibility here... It still
takes both parents.

Of course, what about women and men who are raising children who are
widowed. Funny how the stats are slanted to divorced single women.
HUh!



Jet

I ask, but just because they live with single mothers .. does not mean
that single mothers are the cause of all these things. could not
anxiety, headaches, stammerring, bedwetting and depression be caused by
other children and adults, the school system itself...t.v., mags etc.
that continually tell them there is something wrong with them because
they do not have a father in the house. It may have nothing to do with
the mother at all...probably does not....i hate this women trashing..it
is so easy to do....

could not illnesses be caused by the fact that many of these women,
rather than being on welfare...(where they could be trashed even more
for not being good parents and being on welfare)..which has health
insurance they have to work one or two low paying jobs and neither has
health insurance.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 01:03:03 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: # of Parents
Message-ID: <31E21237.1783@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Common sense dictates that 2 loving parents are better than one. It also
dictates 1 is better than none, and that there are exceptions to every
rule. Just the split in a family alone is traumatic enough to cause
lasting damage. What we need is understanding and compassion for all
parents as they do the hardest job on earth. Regardless of our
upbringing "If it's going to be it's up to me." Twolf made some
excellent points. Strong males are needed, but thank God for the women
who have kept civilization from destroying itself almost single handidly!

Like a plug and a socket, it's electric when we work together!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:13:20 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: evan
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I thought people here would like to read a true story sent to me by some I
correspond with. Evan is 6 years old.

Peter

Evan and I were in his room today feeding our hermit crab and all of a
sudden we started talking about the crab possibly needing a new shell
soon. All of a sudden I look at Evan and he has his hand down the front
of his pants on his penis. So I say, "Evan, What in God's name are you
doing?" He says, "Mom, I am thinking!" So I ask him what on earth he
is talking about and he says, When you had your door closed one day, I
heard you telling Daddy that all men think with their dicks, so I am
thinking.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:12:39 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: # of Parents]
Message-ID: <31E3D677.2631@tiac.net
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <31E3D642.6F6C@tiac.net
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:11:46 -0700
From: Noble
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: thughes@crosslink.net
Subject: Re: # of Parents
References: <31E21237.1783@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

they don't have to be male and female..and as a matter of fact..the two
parent nuclear family, isolated alone is a fairly new phenomena caused
by the industrial revolution. For most of history, for most people...a
larger family of aunts and grandmothers and cousins all took
responsbility for child rearing in anglo-saxon cultures .. and the whole
village raised a child in tribal cultures..be they African or Native
American or whatever.
PATRICIA

Spirit Wind wrote:

Common sense dictates that 2 loving parents are better than one. It also
dictates 1 is better than none, and that there are exceptions to every
rule. Just the split in a family alone is traumatic enough to cause
lasting damage. What we need is understanding and compassion for all
parents as they do the hardest job on earth. Regardless of our
upbringing "If it's going to be it's up to me." Twolf made some
excellent points. Strong males are needed, but thank God for the women
who have kept civilization from destroying itself almost single handidly!

Like a plug and a socket, it's electric when we work together!

Spirit Wind

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:43:59 -0700
From: morte@interlog.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male wondering
Message-ID: <31E3EBDF.7FA9@interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Magnus Thelander wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:15:24 -0400, Xymeretool@aol.com wrote:

(i) Why don't we males start making reparation to Wimmin
for 10,000 years of male rebellion against The Goddess
and oppression of Wimmin by contributing to Wimmin's
equity funds and businesses?

I try to patronize women-owned businesses, but I don't do it as a way of
compensating the sins of other men. I do it because women in my experience
care more about providing what the customer actually needs and wants instead
of just selling some piece of crap any way they can. Men have no qualms about
outright lying about their products or services, if they think it'll help
them sell it. I.e. I feel that women are more honest than men, when it comes
to business. Women seem to be more concerned with building a lasting and
mutually rewarding relationship with their customers instead of just making a
fast buck.

(3) Why don't Wimmin exploit male labor more by creating

I consider exploitation to be one of the most ugly words I know. To me it
means 'use and throw away'. It's the way of the patriarchy. I would hope,
that women would act in a more responsible way towards both the planet and
all things living on it.

Isn't exploitation positively tenet to capitalismism?


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:44:56 -0700
From: morte@interlog.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male wondering
Message-ID: <31E3EC18.218B@interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Magnus Thelander wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:08:51 -0400, Xymeretool@aol.com wrote:

If there is no generally accepted set of Femsupreme
guidelines then chaos and confusion will rule ... not

Chaos is in the eye of the beholder. When most humans look at the nature,
they see chaos, but in reality it's a finely tuned system capable of handling
a lot of disturbances without being stopped in its track.

Wimmin. i would like to be guided by a consensus of
the Gynarchs. That is what i meant. i did not mean

I won't put words in the mouths of women, but my experience leads me to
believe, that it will be very complicated to arrive at consensus. Is it
really necessary? Why not let every woman be the queen of her own realm?

that we should have a male-pattern government which
would just substitute Wimmin for males. meretool

There wouldn't be much progress in replacing one corrupted and
self-serving politician with another, if that's what you mean, when you say
male-pattern government.

Don't go there.
"You can smoke my cigar all night through the link in your chain."

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:48:12 MET-1
From: "Andy"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Dominant women
Message-Id:

Does there exist a list of dominant women looking for obedient men?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:28:52 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Lady Cristina
Message-ID: <960710112849_573652183@emout07.mail.aol.com

i am happy to be able to announce that a strong but
elegant Womyn is going to try me out later today as Her
slave. She is a lovely Italian Womyn and i am very
hopeful that She will collar me. As She said of me ...
"he is a new slave, but I think he is a good slave."
Fantasy takes over and races like the wind. I am
to present myself to Her on my knees with hands
behind my back. i will tell Lady Cristina about
Femsupremacy list and i feel sure She will join.
meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:05:14 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Message-ID:

FEi am very sorry i have caused anyone on the list hurt. i am a strong beleive
FEin female superiority. i have submitted to a Woman in whom i place my trust
FEand above all i obey. Things can overwhelm me at times and an open medium as
FEthis tempts unbridled venting. my apologies to the list and to Patricia.

I was not "hurt." I was outraged.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:01:02 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Female Leads (was Re: brain function and gende
Message-ID: <31E3FDEE.6846@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

second that sorceress (goddess I love YOUR name)...I was not hurt I was
furious.
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEi am very sorry i have caused anyone on the list hurt. i am a strong beleive
FEin female superiority. i have submitted to a Woman in whom i place my trust
FEand above all i obey. Things can overwhelm me at times and an open medium as
FEthis tempts unbridled venting. my apologies to the list and to Patricia.

I was not "hurt." I was outraged.
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:14:33 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Message-Id: <199607101709.TAA19197@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote Lady Phoenix:

I was told when I was growing up that women just couldn't get along
together. This is one of the most useful lies of patriarchy. "Divide and
conquer" is no joke, it works. Once we get this lie out of our heads, women
tend to get along with each other a lot better than men do.

Yes of course. We are not prisoners of our genes; at least, we are less
than any other species. However, knowing the obstacles in our way is
more constructive than denying their existence.

The dominant langur or lion male kills all young when he takes over,
first because he is not going to defend or help individuals which are
not his offspring, second because his moment of glory may be short
and he must use it as well as he can. But as long as the mothers are
nursing, they will not come into estrus. Solution: stop the nursing by
killing the infants. Mother Nature is a brutal old hag. And the females
play up to him because a new infant is better than none--or even being
killed in defense of the previous infant. Cruel logic.

Regards,
TWollf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:14:38 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life and the Religious Reich
Message-Id: <199607101709.TAA19201@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote Coyote:

I wish I could share your optimism about their early eclipse,
but I don't see it happening any time soon: the world is daily
getting more complex, and that's a threat to many, perhaps most
people. Many people respond to complexity -which is scary, no
doubt- by grasping for simple answers quickly implemented, or by
alienation (itself a simple answer). Ayatollahs promising a
speedy deliverance from the responsibilities of life and citizenship-
especially when they can point a bony finger at the 'Other'- have
always been popular. What makes them especially dangerous now is
accessible technology and the fact that we really are in the
enviromnental 'last and evil days' (thanks mostly to manhood's
terrible stewardship of our Home).

Amen, brother! I think the disintegration of Western economies in
general and the American in particular is going to produce a lot of
bewildered and angry people. And they will be especially bewildered
in the U.S. because that country is so de-politicized. Add to that the
tradition that the solution to every problem is to shoot someone. We
are rushing headlong into the Dark Ages.

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:07:22 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Lorna)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Message-Id: <199607102007.NAA29558@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wrote Lady Phoenix:

I was told when I was growing up that women just couldn't get along
together. This is one of the most useful lies of patriarchy. "Divide and
conquer" is no joke, it works. Once we get this lie out of our heads, women
tend to get along with each other a lot better than men do.


Wrote Timberwolf:

Yes of course. We are not prisoners of our genes; at least, we are less
than any other species. However, knowing the obstacles in our way is
more constructive than denying their existence.

The dominant langur or lion male kills all young when he takes over,
first because he is not going to defend or help individuals which are
not his offspring, second because his moment of glory may be short
and he must use it as well as he can. But as long as the mothers are
nursing, they will not come into estrus. Solution: stop the nursing by
killing the infants. Mother Nature is a brutal old hag. And the females
play up to him because a new infant is better than none--or even being
killed in defense of the previous infant. Cruel logic.


You seem to have missed my point. I am not denying that breeding-age females
among lions and some primates will allow a male to kill their offspring.
However, that they "play up to him" in doing this is simply NOT accurate
description of what is going on. _This is a male-centric point of view._ The
lioness in heat does not need to "play up" to the male in order to get him
to have sex with her. He'll do it because he's hard-wired to. And none of
this keeps the lionesses from cooperating with each other as a very
efficient team in providing the entire group with food. The point I was
originally trying to make was that female solidarity is the norm, not the
exception.

_Of course_ I agree with you that we are not prisoners of our genes--humans
are uniquely adaptable creatures. However, I absolutely disagree with your
earlier statement that, "there are strong forms of biological logic
counteracting sisterly solidarity as long as there is ovulation." I think
that the only forms of logic counteracting sisterly solidarity among humans
are patriarchal and political. As far as our genetics go, I sugest that we
have "strong forms of biological logic" that CALL FOR female solidarity.
Women cooperating is very likely the basis for all early human cultures. If
you want to discover genetic "obstacles in our way," I suggest you look to
your own gender!


--Lady Phoenix

(P.S. please accept this response as it is meant: in the spirit of
passionate but friendly debate.)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:51:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life and the Religious Reich
Message-Id: <199607102051.NAA17145@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3262

Timberwolf wrote (answering some of what I had said):

Amen, brother! I think the disintegration of Western economies in
general and the American in particular is going to produce a lot of
bewildered and angry people.

It already has.

Ever the optimist though, I prefer to think of the coming changes
as a 'realignment.' I have always experienced the disappointments
a few years ahead of the general population, and this has made me
very resourceful (and envied) because I seem to live on nothing.

And this is one reason I align myself with Women: they network,
they build natural communities, they will survive.

As for the epitath, it's a bit premature, I think. Painful,
wrenching changes are in order, yes, but there is one quality
in western and especially North American society, and that is
resilience. It always seems to surface at the very last minute,
but it's an abiding quality and derives from something else we
have: diversity.

All industrial economies including the new ones in Asia are in for
a hard time until they learn the wiser (re) use of what resources
are left.

Western/US Capitalism has totally abandoned Capital in favor of raw
mindless consumption, and the people who have the most stake in
investment are the people least inclined to invest. Ideological
conservatives are too busy making war on Women and Nature to conserve
anything. (Following Lester Thurow and Paul Wildman here- nothing
original.)

But what scares me the most is people's going into Victim mode and
refusing to take any responsibility for the solutions, for finding
a better way, for abdicating and going off into their own corner.
We need to rediscover the paradox that says the safest and most
fulfilling place for the individual is in community: how can the
merchant thrive if she doesn't go to the market?

Solutions: let's talk solutions. I am temperamentally incapable
of either running (running to where?!?) or of stoically waiting
for the end. Women, it seems, will stay, will abide and be there
when the dust settles.

And they will be especially bewildered
in the U.S. because that country is so de-politicized.

I don't understand. We're up to our eyeballs in politics.
Always have been. Or did you mean what I call 'alienated?'
What we're lacking is citizenship, that 'showing up' that is
90% of the life of any polity.

Add to that the
tradition that the solution to every problem is to shoot someone. We
are rushing headlong into the Dark Ages.

",,,made more sinister by the lights of perverted Science,"

mused Winston Churchill as the Nazis overran most of Europe.

Let's all commit to hanging on and finding a better way- today.
No "silver spaceships comin' in the yellow haze of the sun" are
going to rescue us.

Deal. ;]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:48:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Crone women (post-menopause)
Message-Id: <199607102148.OAA22371@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2069

Lorna/Lady Phoenix answered Timberwolf answering Lady Phoenix, concluded with

I think
that the only forms of logic counteracting sisterly solidarity among humans
are patriarchal and political. As far as our genetics go, I sugest that we
have "strong forms of biological logic" that CALL FOR female solidarity.
Women cooperating is very likely the basis for all early human cultures. If
you want to discover genetic "obstacles in our way," I suggest you look to
your own gender!

I can generally agree with all of this, strongly agree in fact, without
disagreeing with TW's illuminations of Nature. Can't I? Just asking: are
you two really disagreeing?

Having watched both the female and male cats that have lived with me over
the years stalk birds, I have to hand the prize to the females for both
solitary and group hunting and for territorial defense. Long-lived
Rebecca especially would point the prey, set up the stalk and then push
the male(s) into the capture. She would then do the kill herself, and the
'eat.' Since they were all 'fixed,' I can't comment on their breeding habits.

"Women cooperating is very likely the basis for all early human cultures."

Again, just asking: what about the (cooperating?) male hunting bands?
Or were they part of survival, but not contributors to culture? Did Women
organize the bands: "If you clowns expect to eat tonight, you'll quit
showing off and hunt together- at least if you want to eat at =my= fire."
How does that play?

(P.S. please accept this response as it is meant: in the spirit of
passionate but friendly debate.)

Yup! :D
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:09:18 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: snapper
Subject: Re: I'm sorry to do this like this..
Message-Id: <199607102304.XAA06881@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Someone has probably sent this already being such nice folks :-)

But just in case.....

To unsubscribe: femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com.
There is a digest version of the Femsupremacy list,
which can be subscribed to or unsubscribed from via
the usual methods, by emailing to:
femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com.

Usual methods I always use are place either subscribe or
unsubscribe in the subject box and in
the message body (without a signature) to be double sure.

Kind regards,

David.

On 9 Jul 96 at 12:54, snapper

forgive the intrusion and for sounding like a newbie..i'm
going away for several months and need to unsubscribe but I
have lost my original letter in a bug that attacked our
mail program. Please let me know and you can answer me
privately to do so..thank you and my apologies again.
. .Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:09:11 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life and the Religious Reich
Message-Id: <199607102303.XAA06739@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

It would be lovely to think Barry is right and we are going to see
some positive change. Then we could all sit back comfortably and
watch events unfold on the 'box'. Knowing and confident spectators
with an innate sense of superiority. But as Coyote points out,
the positive will only happen if we take positive action
ourselves and are vigilant.

Love David Stevenson.

On 9 Jul 96 at 18:40, amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
answered Barry.

Barry wrote:

They just understand that the
"Father Knows Best" sort of family is the best one to
maintain the patriarchal system. If the learned comments
on this newslist are any indication, methinks they are in
for surprises in the future.

Molodyets, Barry! :D :D :D

For new members to this list someone should explain that Barry
and Coyote have taken to exchanging Russian comments. :-) He
smiles hoping it was a funny joke.

Coyote said

Permit me an archaic sexist usage in order to quote
someone (who?) spoke up agaist the Nazis and the
Holocaust:

"All that is required for Evil to triumph
is for good men to do nothing."

. .Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 147

Today's Topics:
Unidentified subject!
Re: Unidentified subject!
Re: Unidentified subject!
Re: Guess what? I'm back (almost)
Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
It takes a villiage
same sex marriages
Defense of narrow-mindedness.
male still wondering
Re: male still wondering
Re: male still wondering
Re: male still wondering
Re: male still wondering
Re: male still wondering
Re: male still wondering
Self Abnegation
Self Abnegation
Oops
Re: evan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:26:47 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I hope I'm not imposing on others in this forum, but I have a request.

A friend of mine is taking a course leading to becoming the principal of a
school and is doing an essay on the Internet and its implication on
education.

I was wondering if anyone (a teacher or otherwise) has any thoughts,
experiences, interesting sites, etc. which they could share with me.

Please feel free to email me directly at kriv@interlog.com so that we might
not clutter up femsupremacy with information that might not interest
others.

Thank you
Peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:14:05 -0400
From: ugsage@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu (Peter Sage)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I hope I'm not imposing on others in this forum, but I have a request.

A friend of mine is taking a course leading to becoming the principal of a
school and is doing an essay on the Internet and its implication on
education.

I was wondering if anyone (a teacher or otherwise) has any thoughts,
experiences, interesting sites, etc. which they could share with me.

Please feel free to email me directly at kriv@interlog.com so that we might
not clutter up femsupremacy with information that might not interest
others.

Thank you
Peter

Peter:

This sounds like a good topic for the campus@aclu.org mailing list,
which deals with any issue related to school/education.

Before you subscribe (I believe this is done by sending mail to
majordomo@aclu.org with "subscribe campus" in the message body), I
must warn you that political rhetoric runs rampant on that list! If
you can wade through the politics (bring a shovel!), you may get some
good advice/info from the list members.

Sincerely,

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Peter V. Sage | "There is nothing good or bad
ugsage@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu | but thinking makes it so."
East Carolina University | --William Shakespeare


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:37:02 -0400
From: ugsage@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu (Peter Sage)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

My apologies to everyone on the list; I had intended to send
this message only to peter!

Peter V. Sage | "There is nothing good or bad
ugsage@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu | but thinking makes it so."
East Carolina University | --William Shakespeare


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:04:26 -0400
From: Robert Binnick
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Guess what? I'm back (almost)
Message-Id: <199607121804.OAA21446@chass.utoronto.ca

Glad to hear you're (almost) back!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jul 96 14:28:31 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Message-ID: <960712182830_100410.1764_BHG35-1@CompuServe.COM

I have a fundamental problem with the Myers Briggs test.

Imagine a glass of water. The sum of space occupied by water
and air within the glass always remains constant. If you drink
more water, the space is immediately filled by air.

For each of the four measurements, Myers Briggs seems to
apply this principle. Thus if you become more extroverted, you
have by definition become less introverted at the same time.

This may be okay for the first measure, introversion and extroversion
appear to be mutually exclusive opposites but how about the others?

Can you not become more intuitive, yet also more able to appreciate
the value of hard evidence at the same time?
Can you not become a more logical thinker yet also more in touch
with your own emotions?
Can you not learn better to plan ahead and make your life more ordered
yet also become more creative and spontaneous too?

If this is true then an STJ person may be more intuitive, feeling and perceptive
than an NFP. In which how valuable is the test?

I'm only a layman on this subject, so I'm quite ready to be put right if I've
misunderstood.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:01:53 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: "femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com"
Subject: It takes a villiage
Message-ID: <31E5C021.39F7@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I agree with Dee Anns comments that in our society, children are often
raised by TV, baby-sitters, daycare, etc,etc,etc. It's not hard to
understand why in the inner city kids run in wolf packs, and juvenile
crime and alienation are at an all time high. People are too greedy to
forgo the extra car, nice furnishings, and fancy house to spend time with
their children instead of work the big green money machine. Add to that
the unbelievable tax burden imposed on us by a repressive federal
government and you have poor families working day and night, and too
exhausted or busy to spend time with children who end up raising
themselves. Not always, but USUALLY, a child who is given lots of loving
attention in the 1st 7 years of life will be happier and more secure than
those who aren't. We all have to choose our priorities, and in America
all too often our children aren't the top priority. Shame on us.

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 01:29:38 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: same sex marriages
Message-Id: <199607130125.BAA01164@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

This is probably old news to the US side of the list, but it
crossed my desk today and thought I'd throw it in FYI.

(c) 1996 Intelligent Network Concepts, Inc.
Send mail to incinc@tiac.net the SUBJECT of your message:
subscribe db (to subscribe to the Daily Brief)

* The House is expected to vote today on the "Defense of Marriage
Act," a bill which would define marriage as strictly a union
between a man and a woman.
- the bill would effectively ban same-sex marriages, and
would be the first time the federal government has ever
entered into the question of what makes a marriage.

Warmest regards,

David.
. ________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />Authors of domestic and real life Fem Dom Books.<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 96 02:44:39 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Defense of narrow-mindedness.
Message-Id: <199607130044.CAA20706@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 01:29:38 +0100, Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

Act," a bill which would define marriage as strictly a union
between a man and a woman.
- the bill would effectively ban same-sex marriages, and
would be the first time the federal government has ever
entered into the question of what makes a marriage.

In Sweden there was recently a change in the law, that allows same-sex
couples to enter a so called registered partnership. If they wish it, they
are entitled to a ceremony in a state church, where the priest will bless
their union.

Not marriage, but a step in the right direction at least.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:17:30 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: male still wondering
Message-ID: <960713101729_357967881@emout10.mail.aol.com

With respect to all on the list (especially the Gynarchs),
femsupremacy list sounds more like a liberal think tank
than the incubator of a Female Supremacist revolution.
And the males seem to be leading the discussion in
many cases. i thought Femsupremacy list would be
an organizing tool for Wimmin and a place where males
could receive instruction in how to be living tools of the
Gynarchs. i wanted to learn from Ms. Laura Goodwin
Ms. Patricia, Ms. Dee-Ann, Ms. Kalika, and others.
Because i am trying to be a new male, i will not complain
about these things ... but as a male i am allowed to
wonder. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:44:21 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-ID: <31E7E075.2138@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

a little grumpy mere...what happened new DOMME not work out? It is not
our job to teach you just because you ask. If we want to teach we will,
and this list is not about DOMFEM..although many femsupremacists are
DOMMES...fits together nicely. I think everyone here has been very nice
to you...I certainly took time out of my busy schedule to help you with
name.
Patricia

Xymeretool@aol.com wrote:

With respect to all on the list (especially the Gynarchs),
femsupremacy list sounds more like a liberal think tank
than the incubator of a Female Supremacist revolution.
And the males seem to be leading the discussion in
many cases. i thought Femsupremacy list would be
an organizing tool for Wimmin and a place where males
could receive instruction in how to be living tools of the
Gynarchs. i wanted to learn from Ms. Laura Goodwin
Ms. Patricia, Ms. Dee-Ann, Ms. Kalika, and others.
Because i am trying to be a new male, i will not complain
about these things ... but as a male i am allowed to
wonder. meretool

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:26:30 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960713162630.00674f50@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:17 AM 7/13/96 -0400, you wrote:
With respect to all on the list (especially the Gynarchs),
femsupremacy list sounds more like a liberal think tank
than the incubator of a Female Supremacist revolution.

What's the difference? :)
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:43:41 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-ID: <960713124341_358074725@emout15.mail.aol.com

i beg Your pardon, Ms. Patricia. i thank You for my name.
My new Mistress fired me twice and my current status is
"fired" She is Italian and we have a language problem. When
i misunderstand Her she thinks i am being disobedient. She
may "unfire" me again. i don't know.

i know that the Wimmin of the list have no reponsibility to
teach me ... it would just be nice if One or Some of them
would. i am femdom-oriented and femsupremacy-oriented
too. i want my emotions and my world-view to be compatible.
i appreciate the fact that You have taken the time to help
me. Respectfully, meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:54:06 -0400
From: Xymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-ID: <960713125404_358083926@emout12.mail.aol.com

I am grateful for your message, Ma'am. i have been reading
about the SMC and Your valuable work on behalf of
Gynarchy. i would like to become a male member of SMC
because i believe it gives me a spiritual context in which
to mould myself into a new male. if a liberal think tank is
the incubator of a Female Supremacy revolution then i
will support it with all my heart. i can't tell You how much
i respect you, ma'am ... words are inadequate to express
my feelings of devotion and my desire to follow Your
teachings. Respectfully, meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 96 16:10:21 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-ID: <960713201020_100410.1764_BHG53-1@CompuServe.COM

From meretool:
With respect to all on the list (especially the Gynarchs), femsupremacy list
sounds more like a liberal think tank than the incubator of a Female
Supremacist revolution. And the males seem to be leading the discussion in many
cases. i thought Femsupremacy list would be an organizing tool for Wimmin and a
place where males could receive instruction in how to be living tools of the
Gynarchs.

This triggers several responses from me:

- Wimmin? Yuck, what a horrible word. It conjures up images of nursery school
children
learning to spell. Okay, so 'women' contains the dreaded letters 'm-e-n' but
can't we
consider the 'w-o' to mean something more rather than something less?

- One of the most healthy aspects of this forum is the way that it allows both
women
and men to express their thoughts on a variety of subjects. I think it helps
prove the
assertion that the genders are equal in intellect. I suspect that any other
view is difficult
to defend using logic. In my opinion, female superiority lies in their
life-nurturing ability
(whether they choose to exercise it or not) and their emotional balance. The
aggressive
male hormones are just not appropriate to the modern world and every nation is
struggling with the problems arising from this. More women exercising greater
authority
is undoubtedly part of the solution, but this does not mean that men should be
reduced
to the status of 'living tools' (except in our fantasies).

- meretool, you're quite obviously intelligent, but extremely obsequious.
You've obviously noticed that you stand out within the forum in this respect.

The reconciliaton of submissive erotic feelings (living tool - mmm yes please!)
with a
realistic, philosophical view of the world (only a living tool when I want to be
please!) is
something all the male contributors to this form wrestle with. It seems to me
that you haven't separated the two yet.

- If we are to build a better world (rather than a better fantasy world) then we
must let
our intellects prevail. According to mine, we should revere the virtues of
women, yet
also recognise each person as an individual. If that is so, then ideas should
be
judged on their merit, whatever the gender of the contributor.

- I think your contributions are very valuable in prompting us to think through
such issues.
Membership of this group has been extraordinarily helpful for me in exploring my

feelings so many thanks to Dee-Ann for making it all possible.

With regards

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:21:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-Id: <199607132021.NAA25171@netcom7.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3436

meretool wondered

With respect to all on the list (especially the Gynarchs),
femsupremacy list sounds more like a liberal think tank
than the incubator of a Female Supremacist revolution.
And the males seem to be leading the discussion in
many cases. i thought Femsupremacy list would be
an organizing tool for Wimmin and a place where males
could receive instruction in how to be living tools of the
Gynarchs. i wanted to learn from Ms. Laura Goodwin
Ms. Patricia, Ms. Dee-Ann, Ms. Kalika, and others.
Because i am trying to be a new male, i will not complain
about these things ... but as a male i am allowed to
wonder. meretool


meretool, I share your concerns to some degree, but once again it's time
to point out that this forum is open to all who are polite and have an
interest in Female Supremacy. It is not and never has been what you
suggest, nor has it ever been promoted or described that way. I would
ask you to re-read your original welcome and help posts.

It has been generally agreed here, and most strongly asserted by the some
of the Women who have posted here for a long time, that there is no one
'correct' way of articulating Female Supremacy- even as an idea it is
still very much a work in progress. Trying to impose ideology, ideals
or dogma is a very male way of trying to control the apparent chaos of
this forum (and betrays the inherent male fear of chaos). Here we do
_Glasnost'_ well, but Cultural Revolution badly, even if that's our aim.

There seem to be at least 3 overlapping themes or sources for the
discussions here: political and social Feminism,
religious/spiritual/mythic Feminism, and erotic/relationship Female
dominance (Femdom). To these anthropological, family, environmental,
economic and health issues are sometimes added. There are posters here who
may care about any one ot two of these themes, but have no interest in the
third. Some otherwise committed Women (usually) have left this forum
because of its seeming emphasis on Femdom, as have (usually) males turned
off by discussions of religion, spirituality or magick. There are
separatist Women here who have no interest in males at all, none, and who
share your concern about the high or intrusive level of male
participation. Finally, there are males here, myself included, who are
earnestly trying to discover and honor the Feminine within themselves.

It should also be pointed out that seldom do dominant (in any sense)
Women wish to become the full-time babysitters of even the most
attractive and ardent males. Nor do they wish to be attended by zombies
or robots. They want us =real=.

'liberal think tank:' well, yeah, I hope so. Thank you. Some might say
(_pace_ Marx) that Feminism is a necessary stage on the road to Gynarchy.
Others not. Either way, cool. To quote another patriarchal grotesque,
"Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools of thought contend."

All that said, do keep wondering. Shalom. :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:52:42 -0700
From: Alchemy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960713135326.241fd45a@pop.ni.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello to all. Yes, I am a new poster on your list, and I have been following
the dialog for about a week or two. I am interested in and supportive of the
notion of feminine superiority, but I question the practice of some men who
seem to be in a state of complete self abnegation. I wonder if that kind of
behavior is considered *necessary* by most women on the femsupremacy list,
or is it simply "tolerated" to some degree or other. I realize there will be
a range of answers to this question.

I have always been attracted to strong women, and I am now actively
exploring what that might mean to me in terms of a lifestyle and a
relationship. Can I, as a man in relationship with a strong woman, keep my
sense of self, of who I am as a man, or would i be expected to deflate my
ego to the point of virtual annihilation while inflating that of the Woman i
am in relationship with.

Judging by some of the intelligent conversation between the women and the
men on this list, I would say that there is room for a relationship in which
the woman takes the lead but the man is not devalued. I also understand and
feel the attraction of role playing dominant and submissive, but I would not
want to be lost in that game forever.

I welcome all replies. If you want to reply to me personally, e-mail me:
jdens@ni.net.

Best regards to all.
I touch the earth, I touch the sky, and in between am I.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:52:44 -0700
From: Alchemy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960713135328.2d272e56@pop.ni.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello to all. Yes, I am a new poster on your list, and I have been following
the dialog for about a week or two. I am interested in and supportive of the
notion of feminine superiority, but I question the practice of some men who
seem to be in a state of complete self abnegation. I wonder if that kind of
behavior is considered *necessary* by most women on the femsupremacy list,
or is it simply "tolerated" to some degree or other. I realize there will be
a range of answers to this question.

I have always been attracted to strong women, and I am now actively
exploring what that might mean to me in terms of a lifestyle and a
relationship. Can I, as a man in relationship with a strong woman, keep my
sense of self, of who I am as a man, or would i be expected to deflate my
ego to the point of virtual annihilation while inflating that of the Woman i
am in relationship with.

Judging by some of the intelligent conversation between the women and the
men on this list, I would say that there is room for a relationship in which
the woman takes the lead but the man is not devalued. I also understand and
feel the attraction of role playing dominant and submissive, but I would not
want to be lost in that game forever.

I welcome all replies. If you want to reply to me personally, e-mail me:
jdens@ni.net.

Best regards to all.
I touch the earth, I touch the sky, and in between am I.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:54:47 -0700
From: Alchemy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Oops
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960713135531.2d272546@pop.ni.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sorry about the duplicate message.
I touch the earth, I touch the sky, and in between am I.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:42:15 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: evan
Message-ID: <31E81837.1058@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

peter--

All of a sudden I look at Evan and he has his hand down the front
of his pants on his penis. So I say, "Evan, What in God's name are you
doing?" He says, "Mom, I am thinking!" So I ask him what on earth he
is talking about and he says, When you had your door closed one day, I
heard you telling Daddy that all men think with their dicks, so I am
thinking.

This shows how much children really listen to what we are saying...

Anyone who has children needs to think very hard about the messages
they are giving their/our kids. All we need to do is look at television
or listen to radio to see/hear those messages, and they are not all good.
If we don't the television and radio as "babysitters," and we sit down
and talk with our kids about the messages they see and hear, we should
be in very good shape to get our own positive messages in there.

Thanks for sharing that story, Peter. :)

Jet



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 146

Today's Topics:
Re: Life and the Religious Reich
Industrialization and society.
Tech note from kalika@netbox.com
Re: male wondering
indiscretion
Re: # of Parents
# of Parents
Re: Tech note from kalika@netbox.com
Molodyets and =Your= bandwidth
Guess what? I'm back (almost)
Re: Tech note from kalika@netbox.com
Re: Women and culture (was Crone women)
Re: another (Education Stat)
Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Re: Molodyets and =Your= bandwidth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 02:00:26 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Life and the Religious Reich
Message-Id: <199607102359.BAA02252@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:51:52 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

Timberwolf wrote (answering some of what I had said):

tradition that the solution to every problem is to shoot someone. We
are rushing headlong into the Dark Ages.

",,,made more sinister by the lights of perverted Science,"

mused Winston Churchill as the Nazis overran most of Europe.

Knowledge is neither perverted nor normal, but there are a lot of people
in the world, who are prepared to use knowledge to express their own
perversion.

We can't go back. We can't forget how to build nuclear arms. Like Thomas
J. Watson said: Ever onward!

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 02:08:57 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Industrialization and society.
Message-Id: <199607110008.CAA03396@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:12:39 -0700, Noble wrote:

they don't have to be male and female..and as a matter of fact..the two
parent nuclear family, isolated alone is a fairly new phenomena caused
by the industrial revolution. For most of history, for most people...a

Ecomonists seem to view people the way they view capital and machines,
since they tend to tell people, who can't find work, to move to where the
works is, but humans don't live isolated from the rest of the community. It
must be traumatizing to repeatedly move, and leave friends and any relatives
behind. The children are probably affected the most by this.

Economists need to forget about Homo Economicus, because no such monster
exists. As long as they cling to that false assumption, any "knowledge" they
offer will have little value. They need to learn about psychology and
sociology before they can advise politicians on what policy to adopt.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:11:50 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kalika
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Tech note from kalika@netbox.com
Message-Id: <199607110012.AAA02097@netbox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

It has been drawn to my attention that due to my use of netbox.com,
messages I send to the List will place "kalika@netbox.com" in the "To: "
field at the top of the header, when someone uses the "Reply" option in
various E-mail packages, at least in Eudora / Eudora Lite for certain. I use
Eudora Lite so I checked it out.

The solution to this is to set up a nickname for the List in your Nicknames
file or your "Address Book" file (or whatever your E-mail software calls
it). Then delete me out of the "To:" field, and enter the nickname for the
List. Most folks already have such a Nickname for the List, so the only
thing is to remember to make the swap when replying to an message I send to
the List.

I apologise to all the List for this. It can't be helped, as I understand it.

To make a plug for NetBox.com (in which I have absoluetly *no* interest
except as a paying client) ... they are, they offer, a *permanet* E-mail
address from which any incoming mail is forwarded to anyone of 3 various
ISP's that I / You indicate. (like the e-mail address at the office, the one
at home (a different ISP) and the country house (another ISP). For people
that move around a great deal, travel on business and stay places for a few
weeks at a time, or that live where there is a highly competitive ISP market
and hence the opportunity to change to a better rate / better service, etc.
on a regular basis, it provides a *steady* E-Mail address from year to year.

It is basically $2.00 per month. Changes can be made via Telnet or directly
from their WWW page. Just passing this on in case it is of interest /
benefit to anyone else on the list. They can easily also be setup (at no
extra cost) to be an anonymous re-mailer, for those that like a bit more
privacy.

just go to ....www.netbox.com

Dark Moon Blessings to All,

kalika@netbox.com






the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 02:17:47 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: male wondering
Message-Id: <199607110017.CAA04554@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:43:59 -0700, morte@interlog.com wrote:

Magnus Thelander wrote:

(3) Why don't Wimmin exploit male labor more by creating

I consider exploitation to be one of the most ugly words I know. To me it
means 'use and throw away'. It's the way of the patriarchy. I would hope,
that women would act in a more responsible way towards both the planet and
all things living on it.

Isn't exploitation positively tenet to capitalismism?

Assume it is. What does that tell us about capitalism?

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:45:24 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
CC: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
Subject: indiscretion
Message-Id: <199607110240.CAA05589@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I recently gave the name and Email address of two other
lists here on femsupremacy.

I quite reasonably assumed that people running lists would want
new subscribers. But apparently this is not always the case.

Bobby and Debbie at SubMiss have not complained, so I don't
think I have offended them. But I have offended the
listmistress at 'the Pearl.'

Yesterday someone at the Pearl further compounded this problem
by replying to me and inadvertently sending a copy to this list.

This caused a repetition of their address to occur in this list.

They are snowed under with enquiries which they do not have the
capacity to handle. So please. Do not send any more mail to the
Pearl list.

Write to me if you like. I'll send your address on to the Pearl
when things calm down.

Just drop me a line.

Warmest regards,
David Stevenson.

Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:13:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Ronald Forster
To: Spirit Wind
cc: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: # of Parents
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

yes, and I'll answer the others later

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Spirit Wind wrote:

Common sense dictates that 2 loving parents are better than one. It also
dictates 1 is better than none, and that there are exceptions to every
rule. Just the split in a family alone is traumatic enough to cause
lasting damage. What we need is understanding and compassion for all
parents as they do the hardest job on earth. Regardless of our
upbringing "If it's going to be it's up to me." Twolf made some
excellent points. Strong males are needed, but thank God for the women
who have kept civilization from destroying itself almost single handidly!

Like a plug and a socket, it's electric when we work together!

Spirit Wind

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 23:36:02 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: # of Parents
Message-ID: <31E34F52.6AE@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Still think 1 + 1= 2 is more than 1 + 0= 1. Twice the resources, twice
the input, twice to attention, twice the guidance, etc.

As one who was a single "mom" and dad for 2 years, I'm not putting down
single parents, who courageously work themselves to a state of exhaustion
every night for the sake of their kids. I'm just saying, ideally all
things being equal, 2 is more than 1. Fathers are extremely important,
and all children would be infinitely better off if they had a loving,
attentive father. Unfortunately, this is not the case often enough.
Thank God that women have done what men often have not done, and that's
make the children the priority. That seems to be changing though, as we
are learning to be open emotionally and honestly.

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Re: Tech note from kalika@netbox.com
Message-Id: <199607110346.UAA26466@netcom12.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2673


It has been drawn to my attention that due to my use of netbox.com,
messages I send to the List will place "kalika@netbox.com" in the "To: "
field at the top of the header, when someone uses the "Reply" option in
various E-mail packages, at least in Eudora / Eudora Lite for certain. I use
Eudora Lite so I checked it out.

You are in luck, then: the co-author of Que's _Using Eudora_ is none
other than our Listress. :)

You will still in all likelihood need to settle the matter at
either Netbox or with the 'home' system, or both. In the meantime
all replies meant to be public will still be only private. You alone
will see them, not therest of the List.

Readers should know that Magnus and Patricia occasionally have this
same problem, and perhaps some others. This is why we only get
glimpses of some of their gems when someone else plays them back
to us in their own reply. Confusing, innit?

The solution to this is to set up a nickname for the List in your Nicknames
file or your "Address Book" file (or whatever your E-mail software calls
it). Then delete me out of the "To:" field, and enter the nickname for the
List. Most folks already have such a Nickname for the List, so the only
thing is to remember to make the swap when replying to a message I send to
the List.

This is exactly what I do, and it works, but it won't work for
all users, e.g, Bodie and Mesalina.

Two alternatives are to either 1) Forward your reply (with comments,
which are in fact your reply) to femsupremcay@renaissoft.com (or its
alias, as Kalika has set out) or 2) copy femsupremacy (but this
means Kalika or whoever would get two copies). Bodie and Mesalina
(and other *.email.net users) will have to simply write a new letter.

I apologise to all the List for this. It can't be helped, as I understand it.

Thank You for the alert. It will save us all some grief in future,
one hopes.

To make a plug for NetBox.com


just go to ....www.netbox.com

or for the Webless, info@netbox.com, no subject, blank message.
Just did both: A very nice info packet came back both ways.

Dark Moon Blessings to All,

kalika@netbox.com

Thank You for all that :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:08:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Molodyets and =Your= bandwidth
Message-Id: <199607110408.VAA28010@netcom12.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1334


Molodyets, Barry! :D :D :D

For new members to this list someone should explain that Barry
and Coyote have taken to exchanging Russian comments. :-) He
smiles hoping it was a funny joke.


Oh, it was one more of those cornball Komsomol salutations.
It means literally, 'Boy!' with a bright cheery vacant heroic smile,
but is used where English speakers might say 'What a guy!' or more
generally, 'Bravo!' Oddly, it has in recent years become unisex, and
can mean 'You go, girl!' or 'Brava!' when used among Women. The expected
'girl' expression 'Molodyeika' is never used, a hopeful sign perhaps.
Or not. Why I collect Soviet camp is beyond me: I need either a good
beating or another cat, perhaps.

Clueless in Phoenix, but comfy in my gangsta threads,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:03:44 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Guess what? I'm back (almost)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960711050344.00684864@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'm still having problems retrieving my email, but as you can see I can
*send* mail OK! :)

I got one teeny bug to work out, Eudora-wise, then I'll be set. Please bear
with me.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Tech note from kalika@netbox.com
Message-Id: <199607110511.WAA00223@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1203

Coyote Sings wrote:

You are in luck, then: the co-author of Que's _Using Eudora_ is none
other than our Listress. :)

Sssssssh. People might think I know what I'm talking about. ;)

You will still in all likelihood need to settle the matter at
either Netbox or with the 'home' system, or both. In the meantime
all replies meant to be public will still be only private. You alone
will see them, not therest of the List.

Actually, it sounds like in her Settings she set her e-mail address in
the Reply-To field. All she needs to do is erase her e-mail address
from "Reply-To" and leave it blank. Basically, as a general rule when
you write someone and they hit Reply, they reply directly to you.
However, if you set a specific Reply-To address, the mailing list
software assumes that you had a reason for wanting to use it, and so
doesn't set the replies to go to the list.

Make any sense? :)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:18:31 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and culture (was Crone women)
Message-Id: <199607110518.WAA07731@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wrote (in part):

"Women cooperating is very likely the basis for all early human cultures."

Coyote Sings replied (in part):

Again, just asking: what about the (cooperating?) male hunting bands?
Or were they part of survival, but not contributors to culture? Did Women
organize the bands: "If you clowns expect to eat tonight, you'll quit
showing off and hunt together- at least if you want to eat at =my= fire."
How does that play?

Male hunters certainly contributed to survival, and I'm sure to culture as
well. But the myths of many people (most of the world, actually) point to
women as the creators of most of the basic arts of human culture:
agriculture, the domestication of animals, pottery, weaving, writing, etc.

My guess is that men were perfectly capable of organizing hunting bands on
their own. They were sure to gain social standing by doing so, as meat is
normally a high-status food in hunter/gatherer societies (because there's
not much of it). In college anthropology I was told that the ratio of food
provided in hunter/gatherer groups is 10% from hunters and 90% from
gatherers. Perhaps we should call them gatherer/hunter societies! Of course
(heading off possible arguments) this does not apply to cultures like the
Inuit or the North American buffalo-hunting tribes, where men killed the
seals/buffalo/whatever and the women processed the kills (including going
out to where the dead animal was and dragging it back home). There was
usually a lot of preparation for the hunt, and actual time spent hunting was
small. In one group we looked at, the men spent the majority of their time
gambling just outside the village proper!

But hey, I think the time for rigidly defined sex-roles has long passed. My
personal opinion is that if someone can do the job, let them.


--Lady Phoenix


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:12:13 -0700
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: another (Education Stat)
Message-Id: <3.0a5.32.19960711141212.0065897c@pop.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:20 PM 09/07/96 -0700, Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

Here Lady Phoenix unmasks the true motivations and intentions of the
so-called "Family Values" crowd. If they are so insistent that two
parents are better than one why would they not support the concept of
the "Commune" (many adults) over that of the "Nuclear Family"?

There is an old saying, "It takes a village to raise a child." Think about
it. For about 8 hours a day, a child is asleep. For about another 8 hours,
they're not with their _parent(s)_, they're at _school_. Add into that day
care if the kid doesn't come home to an empty house. Plus, day camps,
summer camps, and other special programs. How do you think kids grow up
with different ideas than their parents.

I'd say that the media is also part of the "village," btw. So many folks
use televisions as babysitters it's not even funny.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 0:53:20 +0200
From: silverheart
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Message-ID:

Jung introduced a theory of personality type.
Myers-Briggs and her daughter developed a test to rapidly
determine an indivdual's type. The theory is that that
there is a potential polarity between
Introversion/extroversion, Intuition/Sensation,
Feeling/Thinking, and Perceiving/Judging.

Not potential -- very real. But the polarity is one of
preferences, not one of skills. That is, someone who is an
introverted perceiver may teach himself to be a good
toastmaster and speaker (extroverted skills) and/or a good
organizer (judger skill), but it won't come naturally to him,
as it does to an extroverted judger.

One should always be very careful in making judgments about
an other person's type based on behavior, because it isn't
about behavior but about preferences.

Jung believed that individuation and growth were more
elusive for individuals who were at the extremes on these
polarities, and that balance can be restored by manifesting
the least developed tendency. For example, an extreme
introvert needs to learn to curb the tendency to look
inward, and find ways to look to other people more.

That's a bit different from the MBTI perspective, and I've
always believed that the MBTI was basically a simplified
version of Jung's theories (and not in contrast to them).
(Simplified, even if Jung doesn't have the P-J dimension.)
In the MBTI perspective, all the 16 combinations or types
have their strength and weaknesses; so if one exclusively
follows one's four preferences, one will not only maximize
one's strengths, but also one's weaknesses. On the other
hand, if one seeks to balance one's preferences with skills,
behaviors and habits from one's non-preferences, one will
reduce one's weaknesses (but also risks reducing the degree
of one's strengths). I'm not sure that 'individuation' can
be easily placed on one side in this perspective.

I believe that men who may be extrovert-sensing-thinking-
judging early in their adult life may in later life
actively seek to manifest the introvert-intuitive-feeling-
perceiving tendencies within themselves. As such, these
men would be of a personality "type" predisposed to
submissive lifestyle, and a natural ally for the woman who
can be of the opposite type. Thoughts?

I disagree, because I don't think that any particular MBTI
type is more predisposed to a submissive lifestyle than any
other. For me, an INTP, independence and creativity are
cardinal virtues, and since I believe in the value of
contrasts and opposites, I find it natural to say that only a
truly independent person can be submissive. Just as only a
person who truly understands and respects another's
independence, can be truly dominant.

But I can easily imagine a type opposite to mine, a type that
upholds the value of tradition, a need for belonging, etc.,
advocating a submissive lifestyle for himself on that basis.
A different line of reasoning or context may be found for all
the 16 types, I think. (That is, one kind of context for
each of the 16 types, and those of one type who are
submissive, will share certain fundamental similarities
particular to that type. The same, I think, goes for
dominants: that dominants may be found within each of the 16
categories, and those in the same category will share certain
fundamental similarites.)

silverheart

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 1:09:07 +0200
From: silverheart
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Personality Type (Myers-Briggs and Jung)
Message-ID:

I have trouble remembering which is which when I see a M-B
profile, and every time I test I get a slightly different
reading. THat said, I think it's an interesting and
possibly useful tool if used carefully.

There are people who don't fit easily into any MBTI type (for
example because they are intermediate or in-between on one or
more of the dimensions), and there are others (like me) who do.
The number of people who do is actually rather large.
Some of those who do, change type over time; but most don't.

I have tended to test intuitive-feeling-perceiving all my
life (and have also been drawn to dominant women and
feminism all my adult life). But here's curious departure:
when I was younger I was introverted, and only in the last
10 or 12 years have I become really outgoing and even
aggressive at times, but in a friendly, cooperative way. 12
or 15 years ago I was a total loner and took my friends in
ones and twos. Now in, uhm, maturity I seem to reach out
and be a community kind of guy much of the time. (My
creative time and space is still totally private,
though,,,,Hmmmmmmm)

Well, I don't think this is a departure. The basic difference
between Introverts and Extroverts, is how they regain energy.
Anything else -- any other behavior -- is icing on the cake.

Introverts regain energy through being alone. (Stillness and
focusing on the internal world.)
Extroverts regain energy through socializing. (Chattering and
focusing on the external world.)

When you say that

(My creative time and space is still totally private,
though,,,,Hmmmmmmm)

you are admitting that you are as introvert as ever.
But, you have learned E skills and habits, and found that you
can enjoy them too; but that does not make you an extrovert.

Patricia/Noble and others here have hinted that there is
indeed a male 'type' that is the natural ally of _femina
post hominem_. Perhaps so.

Well, I think that even 16 types is not enough to cover the
entire ground, because there are more aspects about
personality than even the 4 dimensions of the MBTI account
for. _One_ type is too little by _far_.

silverheart

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:37:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Molodyets and =Your= bandwidth
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Coyote Sings wrote:


Molodyets, Barry! :D :D :D

For new members to this list someone should explain that Barry
and Coyote have taken to exchanging Russian comments. :-) He
smiles hoping it was a funny joke.

Dobrii pozhalavatz, Tovarisch!

But what are you doing in Phoenix, my friend from Utah?

To carry on the topic (and risk boring everyone with arcane Russian
terms), the final word means Comrade, an equal, with overtones of a
participant in a struggle. It was genuine during the first years of
Soviet revolution, but as that movement became decadent and corrupt it
was used honestly only by diehard Communist veterans, and sarcastically by
the rest of the population. After the Soviet Union's fall it was used
only derisively, but now it is coming back into vogue. Things are so bad
in Russia that 40% of the people voted for the Communist candidate,
despite the bitter memories of the Soviet past.

The expected 'girl' expression 'Molodyeika' is never used, a hopeful
sign perhaps.

If so, c.s., it would be one of the few hopeful signs I saw in Moscow.
It seems that everyone but the well-educated women (a definite minority)
buys into the incredibly sexist society there. My two Russian female
tovarischas ;-) dislike it and fight it at every turn; most of the
women on this list would explode.

Why I collect Soviet camp is beyond me: I need either a good
beating or another cat, perhaps.

c.s., I don't really know you, but you scare the hell out of me with the
depths of your masochistic tendencies. You've gotta live your life in
your own way, but I'd be happier if you got the cat.

Peace,

Barry



Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 148

Today's Topics:
Re: male still wondering
Word for the Day
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: man eating perverted lesbian Indians.
Re: Lady Cristina
Re: Response to Welcome
help
Re: Women's right to orgasm.
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Re: help
Re: help (fwd)
Re: InferiorM's activities.
Ads.
Re: Meretool
control and the perception of control
power vs. control
Re: control and the perception of control
Re: Self Abnegation

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:54:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-Id: <199607132354.TAA17107@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:10 PM 7/13/96 EDT, Jon Woolven wrote:
In my opinion, female superiority lies in their life-nurturing ability
(whether they choose to exercise it or not) and their emotional balance. The
aggressive male hormones are just not appropriate to the modern world and
every nation is struggling with the problems arising from this. More women
exercising greater authority is undoubtedly part of the solution, but this
does not mean that men should be reduced to the status of 'living tools'
(except in our fantasies).

Yes, that is one of the aspects of femsupremacy that I admire so. Women have
a greater ability to nuture, care, and guide than men and are usually more
empathetic to others.

It will be interesting to see how women handle their increasing power and
authority. Will power corrupt women as it has men or will it be used
for the greater good? I know that's an unfair blanket question, just trying
to stir up some thoughts.

FYI, the 96 Vice Presidential candidate for the Libertarian Party, Jo
Jorgensen, is female. She's another example that there is life after IBM ;)
I believe
the url is http://www.lp.org/

- If we are to build a better world (rather than a better fantasy world)
then we must let our intellects prevail. According to mine, we should
revere the virtues of women, yet also recognise each person as an
individual. If that is so, then ideas should be judged on their merit,
whatever the gender of the contributor.

Jon- Well stated. Words to live by.

Warm Regards, Paul (maidpaula)




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:56:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Word for the Day
Message-Id: <199607132356.TAA17172@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:10 PM 7/13/96 EDT, Jon Woolven wrote:
- meretool, you're quite obviously intelligent, but extremely obsequious.
You've obviously noticed that you stand out within the forum in this respect.

I learned a new word today, thanks ;)

obsequious: servilely compliant or deferential

My dictionary also lists a synonym; servile, cringing submissive.

Regards, Paul (maidpaula)




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:22:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <199607140022.UAA18013@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:52 PM 7/13/96 -0700, you wrote:
Hello to all. Yes, I am a new poster on your list, and I have been following
the dialog for about a week or two. I am interested in and supportive of the
notion of feminine superiority, but I question the practice of some men who
seem to be in a state of complete self abnegation. I wonder if that kind of
behavior is considered *necessary* by most women on the femsupremacy list,
or is it simply "tolerated" to some degree or other. I realize there will be
a range of answers to this question.

Welcome Alchemy- No, I don't believe abnegative male behavior is necessary or
even desired. There was discussion about this last month I believe, maybe
you can check out the archives. Lawless and others here had some eloquent
thoughts on the subject.

Judging by some of the intelligent conversation between the women and the
men on this list, I would say that there is room for a relationship in which
the woman takes the lead but the man is not devalued.

I think you're exactly right. Why would a women want a devalued or
worthless man? The better I am, the more I can offer, and the better I can
help her attain happiness.

Regards, Paul (maidpaula)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 01:49:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <199607140649.BAA28776@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Arguably, self-abnegation is a motive, like many other motives which
have been identified. As such, it is a need that is felt more strongly by
certain individuals in certain circumstances.

The judgement of other people's motives is an activity performed on
thin ice.
DL

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:55:50 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960714065550.00684dc4@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:52 PM 7/13/96 -0700, you wrote:
Hello to all. Yes, I am a new poster on your list, and I have been following
the dialog for about a week or two. I am interested in and supportive of the
notion of feminine superiority, but I question the practice of some men who
seem to be in a state of complete self abnegation. I wonder if that kind of
behavior is considered *necessary* by most women on the femsupremacy list...

I can't speak for most women, but for myself I can say that *I have seen* in
my career as a dominance advocate and all-around femsuprem gal that *dom
women in general* prefer their sub men to have backbone and self-respect.
You can be quiet and modest about it, but you should be assertive to some
degree. If you are really down on yourself, women aren't interested.
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 10:01:46 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960714140146.0067ec34@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I wrote:
...*dom women in general* prefer their sub men to have backbone and
self-respect. You can be quiet and modest about it, but you should be assertive to some
degree...

Didja ever notice that dom *men* in general are most interested in saucy,
personality-plus sub women? A sub *woman* who is too into self-abnegation
will not be popular.

How many sub women go around saying "Men are everything, men are Gods on
earth, women are nothing...blah, blah blah"?

Come to think of it, how many sub women would refuse to attend a BDSM
support group or party because there would be other *women* there? LOL!

Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

Steve asked:

I am a male believes in femsupremacy, how do I place an ad , I looking for a
long term relationship?

If really Female Supremacy (as opposed to Female Dominance)

Stick around, see how people interact and what their issues are, get to
know some of the Women posting, make thougthful intelligent posts, and in
Her own good time one them may want to know you better. That's Plan A.

Plan B might be to decide what you really want is a FemDom episode, post
intelligently on alt.sex.femdom and see who writes to you there.

Either way, ads are a poor way to go.

Either way, manners, patience, depth and genuine good regard are a good
way to go.

Welcome, and give Plan A a try :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com


Steve asked:

I am a male believes in femsupremacy, how do I place an ad , I looking for a
long term relationship?

If really Female Supremacy (as opposed to Female Dominance)

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

Steve asked:

I am a male believes in femsupremacy, how do I place an ad , I looking for a
long term relationship?

Either way, ads are a poor way to go.

I don't agree. The internet is a poor way to go, if you're looking for a
RL relationship. How many of the persons you interact with on the net will be
within a realistic distance from you? A handful, if you're fortunate.

Ads are not such a poor way to make the first contact with someone
locally, whom you might be compatible with.

Either way, manners, patience, depth and genuine good regard are a good
way to go.

On this we can definitely agree.


Thought no. 1: There's a difference between control and perceived control
that's relevant to the discussion of Woman power and Female supremacy (and
Female domination too).

It strikes me that a lot of men who are searching after the dominant
Woman or the supremacy of Women (me too) are already largely controlled by
Women in reality. The control is in such little pieces, and so distributed
in time and place as to elude perception. The poor guy remembers what
happens when he says this or does that, so he doesn't do those things;
similarly he knows what to do because he remembers all the little things
that made Her feel good (and consequently ended up making him feel good
too). Now that's not to suggest that it doesn't work the other direction
sometimes too; but, seems to me that applies primarily to a different set of
men (that you won't find looking for powerful Women). If a guy isn't
coupled with a Woman then it's even worse, 'cause the only thing that's
going to make it better is to figure out how to be pleasing enough to a
certain Woman that She will allow him to spend time around Her (which is
about the only thing that will really make him feel good).

So what he's looking for isn't control; that's a done deal. What he's
looking for is to scratch the itch. He is controlled (and he can't help but
know that at some level), but what itches is that he has to pretend he's the
one in charge, 'cause, well that's the way She likes it. Perhaps what he's
looking for is for Her to say "you don't have to pretend any more, we both
know I'm running the show, and here's what I want ... now get busy and give
me what I want." Trouble is there's not much incentive for a Woman to do
that, since, afterall, She's already getting what She wants (at least as
much as she probably ever will get it from him ... which may not be much at
all) and She doesn't have to take responsibility for it. She gets things
Her way, and he gets to be responsible for giving Her things Her way; why
should She want to change that? I suppose that sounds terrible, but I'm not
suggesting there's anything wrong with it; it would, however, offer an
answer to why men seem to be so much keener than Women on Women exercising
their naked power (I couldn't resist expressing it that way). Summarizing
(so as to reconnect with the title), maybe what men are seeking is the
experience of being controlled, to accept themselves for who and what they
know they are, and to live in congruence with the truth.

Well what do you think? Have I finally slipped over the edge into
manifest psychosis or is there some mote, infinitesimal though it might be,
of truth that resonates with anyone else.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: power vs. control
Message-Id: <199607150818.BAA19000@andorra.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bet you could hardly wait, here's ...

Thought no. 2

Another grandly distorted and puffed up fragment of the truth, ... well at
least my truth.

(1) What if Female power is not something that one chooses to exercise (from
a Woman's point of view), or to follow (from the male point of view); what
if it simply is. Perhaps it is only that one may elect to embrace it, ...
to honor that which is... or to deny it, ... to struggle against the
inevitable. It is afterall She who is central to the propagation of Her
kind, and She who is empowered in the nature of Her being to direct the
reproductive process towards a successful completion. Her males, without
regard to their disposition on the subject, are crafted to help Her achieve
Her objectives.

(2) But a Woman's power shapes Her as well as the males over which She
exercises it. Her power is constituted to advance the procreative process,
and while She may move Her males, both She and they are moved, and in the
end it is procreation that together they serve.

(3) And while a Woman may be endowed with great power over males, the
control of that power towards Her purposes must be sought and achieved. If
She directs Her power poorly, or fails to direct it, if She does not control
it, in the end it may control Her and She may be the worse for it. [A
simple metaphor: a person in an automobile has power; if directed
effectively, if controlled, that power can take Her to places and afford
opportunities otherwise not accessible; if poorly directed or undirected, if
not well controlled, it can project Her into fatal impact against otherwise
harmless objects]. To control She must direct Her power, and to make it
serve Her She must direct it thoughfully. To not direct Her power is to
invite it to control Her.

(4) To be in control of Her power She must understand that it is Hers to
direct and She must be vigilant lest it draw to Her males who would impede
Her safe progress towards Her goals. In this task the wisdom of older Women
is invaluable; it is a path frought with traps for the novice traveller.

(5) If She is to control, and not be controlled by Her reproductive nature,
She and Her Sisters must assure that Their society provide for the sharing
of the responsibities of Motherhood. For a society not to have available
and accessible resources for family planning and child care is to abandon
Women to the control of a males.

Well, there you have it. I'm never quite sure whether to post these things.
But in looking back, I think there are a few good lines, so why not.

By the way, I do get carried away (stylistically speaking), and some of this
stuff ends up sounding ... well, inflated. I rather enjoy it myself, and I
hope it doesn't put anyone off too badly. If so, just ignore me and I'll
quit it.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 03:22:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: control and the perception of control
Message-Id: <199607151022.DAA12444@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2499

zbobz is back and wrote:

Thought no. 1: There's a difference between control and perceived control
that's relevant to the discussion of Woman power and Female supremacy (and
Female domination too).

and developed on to

Summarizing
(so as to reconnect with the title), maybe what men are seeking is the
experience of being controlled, to accept themselves for who and what they
know they are, and to live in congruence with the truth.

Well what do you think? Have I finally slipped over the edge into
manifest psychosis or is there some mote, infinitesimal though it might be,
of truth that resonates with anyone else.


Welcome back, zbobz- I enjoyed your posts the last time around as well as
this one.

What you say 'resonates' [ooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmg] with my own
experience well enough.

I discovered Female Supremacy simply by taking a good look at what
was already around me that made sense and that best harmonized with
both my personal and universal myths. In other words, I looked
at what made me feel good about life. I discovered that it was all
the good, constructive, strong, life-giving energy of the Women around
me. I said 'Yes!' to all that and went for it- simple as that. I surrendered
to rather than fought the Female-imposed directions that were already
in place, and there I was. And amazingly it fit seamlessly with my
long-supressed erotic self, and then along comes Sorceress just to
tell me 'Find the Goddess!' (and then go home) and hey, I had all
the pieces.

Now I'm learning from some of the good Women here what to with all
of this bounty and what it all means in the larger scheme of things.

Living a FSist life is far from easy, and I have miles to go, but
I can at least aspire to living without the burdens of false pride
and _machismo_ (not to mention a technicolor post-phallic eroticism)
and time becoming a true gentle-man.

So yes: Look around you: you're already there. Enjoy.

And, yeah, you're probably a little nutty, but that's
what works for me. :D
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:34:19 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <199607151128.LAA13222@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

In reply to the following........

From: Laura Goodwin

Come to think of it, how many sub women would refuse to attend a BDSM
support group or party because there would be other *women* there? LOL!

Laura Goodwin

Welcome back.

I have only met a few sub women so I have to guess at the
answer. But are you saying that men do that. If so why do they?

Surely they don't expect to find a party comprised of a room
full of women in which they are the only man?

I must have been fortunate in the people I've met. Or have I
missed the point?

Oh and please put me out of my misery. What is LOL ?

Warmest regards, David Stevenson.



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 149

Today's Topics:
Re: Lady Cristina
Re: power vs. control
Ads.
The Village (Was another (Educ. Stat)
Re: help
Violence, Abuse & Women's Citizensh (fwd)
Re: help (fwd)
Re: help (fwd)
Re: help
help
Re: male still wondering
Re: help (fwd)
Re: Ads.
Re: help (fwd)
Re: help (fwd)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:34:21 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Lady Cristina
Message-Id: <199607151128.LAA13243@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

In reply to the following........

From: Steve Collins <74363.267@CompuServe.COM
Subject: Re: Lady Cristina

Now this is more like it!!! Keep me on this list.

I might be getting old, or just plain over-worked. Or maybe I'm
still not getting all the posts. Anyway I don't recall seeing
the one entitled Lady Cristina.

Can you give a clue as to what it is you approve of in the post?

Warmest regards,
David.

________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />.Authors of domestic and real life D/s Erotica..<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:27:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: power vs. control
Message-Id: <199607151127.EAA14509@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3337

zbobz on a roll:

(1) What if Female power is not something that one chooses to exercise (from
a Woman's point of view), or to follow (from the male point of view); what
if it simply is. Perhaps it is only that one may elect to embrace it, ...
to honor that which is... or to deny it, ... to struggle against the
inevitable.

Bingo! That's the story and the challenge: how to respond to
what is already there- the Force, the Flow, the Archetype, the
G-words, whatever. The physical (and not so physical) universe
is the only universe we've got- do we make ourselves at home in
harmony with it (as Women seem to do) or do we fight it and try
and order it according to our own fears (as men seem to do)?
Our choice.

Said another way, life and its phenomena seem to be in the main
ordered as Feminine, and when encountered in our little short
lives is overwhelmingly so. "Mother Earth" and "Mother Nature"
are not idle terms, and come out of our most ancient perceptions
of the world around us. (I can't think of one single phenomenon
in physical nature that is anything but Feminine, but I'm slow
at times. The basic forces all seem to be Feminine: gravity,
magnetism, weak force, strong force. Somebody with a quantum
physics background could help here.)

zbobz, you (or anyone) may want to have a look at some of Kalika's
recent posts and craft your own answers to some of her ideas.
That would make an interesting connection to what you've said
here.

(4) To be in control of Her power She must understand that it is Hers to
direct and She must be vigilant lest it draw to Her males who would impede
Her safe progress towards Her goals.

See alt.sex.femdom to actually see this unfold :) in spades.
(Peace JUU: a.s.fd is still a waaay cool place- best of UseNet,
in fact. ;d )


In this task the wisdom of older Women
is invaluable; it is a path frought with traps for the novice traveller.

The Crone, the Wise Woman, the Ancestress, Haghia Sophia
in Her most local form. Get close to Her.

(5) If She is to control, and not be controlled by Her reproductive nature,
She and Her Sisters must assure that Their society provide for the sharing
of the responsibities of Motherhood. For a society not to have available
and accessible resources for family planning and child care is to abandon
Women to the control of a males.

Which is why I am a flaming bleeding heart pinko liberal.
And this war on Women, children and Nature is waged by people
who call themselves 'Pro Life' and 'Pro Family.' Yet they will
spend zillions on toys, circuses, asphalt and wonderfully phallic
under-Code pyramids.

By the way, I do get carried away (stylistically speaking), and some of this
stuff ends up sounding ... well, inflated.

Nah.
You want inflated?- I got inflated! :D

Peace from yours in Bombast,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:54:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Ads.
Message-Id: <199607151154.EAA15251@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1757

From femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com Sun Jul 14 16:14:49 1996
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 01:11:18 +0200
Subject: Ads.


On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:48:59 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

Either way, ads are a poor way to go.

Magnus Thelander replied:

I don't agree. The internet is a poor way to go, if you're looking for a
RL relationship. How many of the persons you interact with on the net will be
within a realistic distance from you? A handful, if you're fortunate.

Ads are not such a poor way to make the first contact with someone
locally, whom you might be compatible with.

Well, I have met some very good friends on the Net (or online), many of
whom I have later met (or at least heard on the telephone), and have made
several connections that touch my public life in some way. My main work
partner is a Heavy Manners lesbian I met in Usenet personals (guess where)?

And guess what?

The really =good= ads, the ones that work, are the ones we (males in this
case) answer- the ones written by Women, and that we (males and
submissive Women) answer with careful, sincere letters.

It's for them to ask, and for us to answer.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: The Village (Was another (Educ. Stat)
Message-Id: <199607151425.HAA25094@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 11 July, Dee-Ann wrote:
There is an old saying, "It takes a village to raise a child." Think about
it. For about 8 hours a day, a child is asleep. For about another 8 hours,
they're not with their _parent(s)_, they're at _school_. Add into that day
care if the kid doesn't come home to an empty house. Plus, day camps,
summer camps, and other special programs. How do you think kids grow up
with different ideas than their parents.

I'd say that the media is also part of the "village," btw. So many folks
use televisions as babysitters it's not even funny.

Kind of sad, scary even, when you stop to think just how much of that
"village" is at best indifferent to the welfare of the children being
raised; at worst, possessed of motives and inclinations that are directly
at cross-purposes.

Perhaps most of all, the media, with both programs and advertising that
are designed to simply encourage certain ways of thinking, in particular
consumerism : "Momma, I -need- those new basketball shoes" or "I really
need to be thinner so I'll be pretty & popular". Using the television as
an unsupervised babysitter seems not unlike delivering the kids into the
hands of hostile strangers. "Brainwash my baby if you must, just keep
her out of my hair."

Feh.

-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A. Gilliland.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:47:42 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960715154742.0068b200@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 02:48 PM 7/14/96 -0700, you wrote:
Steve asked:
I am a male believes in femsupremacy, how do I place an ad , I looking for a
long term relationship?

...ads are a poor way to go.
coyote sings

coyote, I love ya, but ads are a great way to go. I met my marvelous hubby
through a personal ad, and many of my current friends I met through ads, or
online.

This list is not the place for personal ads, Steve. Try
alt.personals.bondage, or your local periodicals.

Ads don't work often *because they are poorly written*, _are not in long
enough_, or *you don't do the proper follow-through with those who respond*.
Actually (when ads are used right), they can save you time, and money, and
maximize your chances for success.


Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Violence, Abuse & Women's Citizensh (fwd)
Message-Id: <199607151559.IAA02594@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 6763

I know there are some folks in the UK and nearby...perhaps someone is
interested in attending?

Dee-Ann

An International Conference: Violence, Abuse and Womens Citizenship
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Brighton, UK 10 - 15 November 1996
----------------------------------

Internationally acclaimed speakers from around the world, policy
formulation, networking and social events
Global Strategies for Prevention, Protection and Provision

About the Event:
----------------
This international event will focus on the causes and consequences of all
forms of violence and abuse against women and children around the world.
Violence and abuse takes many forms - but they all have something in
common: the denial of womens human rights and full citizenship.
Throughout the world women are taking action to challenge this oppression
in courageous, innovative and empowering ways.

The Purpose of this Conference:
-------------------------------

1. To promote understanding of the ways in which violence, abuse and
gendered power relations affect womens citizenship and human rights.

2. To build on United Nations, European and other international
initiatives on the elimination of violence and discrimination against
women and children.

3. To take forward what was achieved at the UN World Conference in
Beijing, September 1995.

4. To promote government action on violence and abuse as human rights and
social justice issues for women.

5. To provide an opportunity to develop and strengthen alliances within
the international womens movement in a meaningful way and specifically to
draw together and develop activity at international, national, regional
and local levels.

6. To develop Action Plans in the following areas:

Social/public policy and legislation
Research and education
Intervention and prevention

Who Will be Involved?
---------------------
Survivors of violence and abuse
Activists
Women and their organisations
Politicians
Practitioners
Policy makers
Social workers/Social care advocates
Health care professionals
Academics
Counsellors/therapists
Educationalists
Civil and criminal justice
Public sector and welfare workers
Students

General Information:
--------------------
Each day will consist of opening speakers in the main hall followed by
panel discussions, workshops, action planning, seminars and time to
network. The conference is open to women and men. It is expected that
men attending the event will consider effective ways to challenge male
violence in all its forms and support womens strategies that emerge from
the conference. Sessions outside the main hall will b structured as
mixed, women only and men only sessions. Each day will end with further
keynote speakers in the main hall. The week is structured so that you can
attend the whole week or selected days.

The working language will be English. This is a self-funded conference
without government or other major sponsorship. However, it is our
intention to provide as extensive an interpretation service as possible.

Contributing to the Week/Participation
--------------------------------------
A key aim of the conference is to share information within an
international conference. To enable us to plan and structure full and
balanced representation on a global scale, we would like you to contact
us if you have contributions to make in the following areas:
Policy making, legislation, campaigns, lobbying, research, service
delivery, individual and social support, self help initiatives, publicity
on issues that concern you and your community.

We are planning over 400 activities outside the main hall (workshops,
seminars, networking, action planning). To be considered as a contributor
at the Conference, send a maximum of one page outlining your activity.
Please attach this to your Registration Form. Note - this needs to be
sent to us by the end of August.

We would also like you to ask your Government representatives what their
plans are for implementing the UN International Declaration on the
Elimination of Violence Against Women - please send this information to
us.

A full and complete programme will be sent out with delegate packs from
September onwards.

Some of the Confirmed Keynote Speakers
--------------------------------------
Reem Abdelhadi, Palestine and UK, Farida Akhter, Bangladesh, Louise
Armstrong, USA and UK, Kathleen Barry, USA, Belinda Calaguas, Philippines
and UK, Beatrix Campbell, UK, The Bombay Womens Centre, India, Phyllis
Chesler, USA, Radhika Coomaraswamy, Sri Lanka, Neli Van Djik, Netherlands,
Efua Dorkenoo, UK, Andrea Dworkin, USA, Raquel Edralin-Tiglao,
Philippines, Eveline Giobbe, USA, Hameda Hossain, Bangladesh, Sheila
Jeffreys, UK and Australia, Tessa Jowell, UK, Renate Klein, Australia, Eva
Lundgren, Sweden and Norway, Teboho Maitse, South Africa, Linda MacLeod,
Canada, Maria Mies, Germany, Sureshni Moodliar, South Africa, Mmatshilo
Motsei, South Africa, Ellen Pence, USA, Mimi Ramsey, Ethiopia and USA,
Janice Raymond, USA, Beth Richie, USA, Diana Russell, USA, Ailbhe Smyth,
Ireland.

Structure of the Week
---------------------
Sunday 10 November
Civic reception (evening) with opening speeches - no charge to delegates

Monday 11 November
Rape, Sexual Assault, Sexual Harassment and Domestic Violence

Tuesday 12 November
Rape, Sexual Assault, Sexual Harassment and Domestic Violence

Wednesday 13 November
Harmful Cultural Practices (including FGM and female infanticide)

Thursday 14 November
Trafficking of Women (including prostitution and pornography)

Friday 15 November
Child Abuse and Child Protection

Prices:
-------
Unwaged/Volunteer/Activist: 20 pounds per day/70 pounds all week
Waged/Funded: 70 pounds per day/150 pounds all week

Cheques should be made payable to The Violence, Abuse and Womens
Citizenship Conference.

For Enquiries and Application forms please contact:
Violence Abuse and Womens Citizenship Conference
PO Box MT7
LEEDS
LS17 5XJ
UK
Tel: +44/1274 385 234 Fax: +44/1274 385370
e-mail: vagrru@bradford.ac.uk

Closing Date: Friday 30 August 1996





the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:47:45 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960715154745.006894f8@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My apologies. It wasn't Steve, it wasn't Steve, it was Lookgood.
Apologies to both of you.

Heh. :) WhAt-ever...
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:52:28 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-ID: <31EAA17C.738C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

oh...and as far as I know
LOL...means Laughing Out Loud
ROFL..means Rolling On Floor Laughing
ROFLMAO..means Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off
IMO..means In My Opinion
IMHO..means In My Humble Opinion...(which all of you know I don't use)
IMNSHO..means In My Not So Humble Opinion
i forget who asked but that's probably more than you wanted to know..
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:47:55 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-ID: <31EAA06B.1A0B@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

while I haven't met "the one", yet through my ads...if you are sensible
and screen well you can make some friends through ads...I have...
..which reminds me time to place another ad...as still have no long term
sub in life...

and
coyote..here's a hug...
haven't given you one in awhile
Patricia

Laura Goodwin wrote:

At 02:48 PM 7/14/96 -0700, you wrote:
Steve asked:
I am a male believes in femsupremacy, how do I place an ad , I looking for a
long term relationship?

...ads are a poor way to go.
coyote sings

coyote, I love ya, but ads are a great way to go. I met my marvelous hubby
through a personal ad, and many of my current friends I met through ads, or
online.

This list is not the place for personal ads, Steve. Try
alt.personals.bondage, or your local periodicals.

Ads don't work often *because they are poorly written*, _are not in long
enough_, or *you don't do the proper follow-through with those who respond*.
Actually (when ads are used right), they can save you time, and money, and
maximize your chances for success.


Laura Goodwin

"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 14:20:59 +0300
From: mg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: help
Message-ID: <31EA299B.17B2@netvision.net.il
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings wrote:

What is the list everyone's referring to?

You're looking at it. ;P

. .

.

For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".
--
help.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:45:47 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-ID:

In message <2.2.32.19960713162630.00674f50@popd.ix.netcom.com, Laura
Goodwin
At 10:17 AM 7/13/96 -0400, you wrote:
With respect to all on the list (especially the Gynarchs),
femsupremacy list sounds more like a liberal think tank
than the incubator of a Female Supremacist revolution.

What's the difference? :)
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

To which we add Touche (without the italics or the accent which we
cannot yet bend Turnpike to), the same for Jon Woolven's comments too.
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:26:46 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-ID:

In message <31EAA17C.738C@tiac.net, Noble
oh...and as far as I know
LOL...means Laughing Out Loud
ROFL..means Rolling On Floor Laughing
ROFLMAO..means Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off
IMO..means In My Opinion
IMHO..means In My Humble Opinion...(which all of you know I don't use)
IMNSHO..means In My Not So Humble Opinion
i forget who asked but that's probably more than you wanted to know..
Patricia


We tried out LOTS OF LOVE for LOL
so which did Laura mean?

--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 02:30:42 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Ads.
Message-Id: <199607160030.CAA08719@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 04:54:35 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:48:59 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

Either way, ads are a poor way to go.

Magnus Thelander replied:

I don't agree. The internet is a poor way to go, if you're looking for a
RL relationship. How many of the persons you interact with on the net will be
within a realistic distance from you? A handful, if you're fortunate.

Well, I have met some very good friends on the Net (or online), many of
whom I have later met (or at least heard on the telephone), and have made
several connections that touch my public life in some way. My main work
partner is a Heavy Manners lesbian I met in Usenet personals (guess where)?

You are indeed fortunate. Like I said, the chances are slim compared to
mainstream media. How many people read the personals in the newspapers
everyday? How many care to wade through the mountains of fluff and garbage in
the usenet personals groups. I bet there's quite a difference.

The really =good= ads, the ones that work, are the ones we (males in this
case) answer- the ones written by Women, and that we (males and
submissive Women) answer with careful, sincere letters.

A good ad is a good ad no matter where it is publicized. I.e. an ad in
mainstream media has to just as good as an ad in the usenet personals groups.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-Id: <199607160046.RAA29767@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1146

Noble wrote

oh...and as far as I know
LOL...means Laughing Out Loud
ROFL..means Rolling On Floor Laughing
ROFLMAO..means Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off
IMO..means In My Opinion
IMHO..means In My Humble Opinion...(which all of you know I don't use)
IMNSHO..means In My Not So Humble Opinion
i forget who asked but that's probably more than you wanted to know..
Patricia

A personal fave is

SWMBO .. She Who Must Be Obeyed
(used here in place of SO .. Significant Other)

Also useful when being helpful:

RTFM and RTFFAQ .. an invitation to consult the original instructions
(perhaps heretofore overlooked by the avid user).
The M is for 'Manual.'
and

WYSIWYG .. What You see is what You get.
WIIWD .. What it is we do (usually a reference to lifestyle practice).
YMMV .. Your mileage may vary.
RL, IRL .. Real Life, In Real Life

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:55:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

Thanks all for the translations of the acronyms. One small
difference I've noted is:

YMMV: Your Mistress May Vary.

Peace,

Barry

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 150

Today's Topics:
Re: control and the perception of control
Re: help
Re: power vs. control
Re: male still wondering
Re: male still wondering
Thanks for the memories
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: Thanks for the memories

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:00:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: control and the perception of control
Message-Id: <199607160100.VAA23704@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:05 PM 7/14/96 -0700, zbobz wrote:
Thought no. 1: There's a difference between control and perceived control
that's relevant to the discussion of Woman power and Female supremacy (and
Female domination too).

It strikes me that a lot of men who are searching after the dominant
Woman or the supremacy of Women (me too) are already largely controlled by
Women in reality.

Zbobz- An excellent and thought provoking post. Speaking for myself, I never
have been controlled by anyone, woman or man. Well, perhaps when I was
employed in a large corporation, but I threw off that yoke also. I approach
female supremacy from a postion of self-worth. But I choose freely to
pursue this course of action because I believe femsupremacy offers all of us
a better future. Female control is not really the issue for me (except in a
femdom sense) but rather I see femsupremacy as liberating and enlightening,
a way to move beyond stereotypes and outdated matriarhcal thought patterns.

The control is in such little pieces, and so distributed in time and place
as to elude perception. The poor guy remembers what happens when he says
this or does that, so he doesn't do those things; similarly he knows what
to do because he remembers all the little things that made Her feel good
(and consequently ended up making him feel good too).

You may be onto something here. After all, aren't we are influenced by our
past relationships and upbringing? Perhaps it has been just the trick of
fate, but as I was growing up it always seemed that I could never figure out
how to please or how to be accepted by females. I realized I was
approaching it all wrong, i.e. selfishly. Now I try to understand Her needs
and views first and consider how I can effectively relate to Her and make us
both better people. That synergy thing ;)

If a guy isn't coupled with a Woman then it's even worse, 'cause the only
thing that's going to make it better is to figure out how to be pleasing
enough to a
certain Woman that She will allow him to spend time around Her (which is
about the only thing that will really make him feel good).

That's not the only thing that makes me feel good, I have a lot of other
ways that I measure my self-esteem (YMMV), but yes, I sometimes feel
incomplete when I am unable to connect. It can be hard to admit sometimes,
but we all need to be loved and we all seek validation.

Warm Regards, Paul (aka maidpaula)




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-Id: <199607160109.SAA03291@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1172

Laura wrote

coyote, I love ya,

|)
but ads are a great way to go. I met my marvelous hubby
through a personal ad, and many of my current friends I met through ads, or
online.

Actually and upon reflection, You and Magnus seem to have the more
usual experience with ads of different kinds, and I have had a bit
of luck with them myself, if only as a respondent. :)

I suppose what prompted me write as I did was the quality of ads
posted by the truly clueless and the truly callous on a.s.fd,, a.p.b
and even the occasional 'hit' here.

I stand 'corrected'
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:26:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: power vs. control
Message-Id: <199607160126.VAA24889@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:18 AM 7/15/96 -0700, Zbobz wrote:
(1) What if Female power is not something that one chooses to exercise (from
a Woman's point of view), or to follow (from the male point of view); what
if it simply is. Perhaps it is only that one may elect to embrace it, ...
to honor that which is... or to deny it, ... to struggle against the
inevitable. It is afterall She who is central to the propagation of Her
kind, and She who is empowered in the nature of Her being to direct the
reproductive process towards a successful completion. Her males, without
regard to their disposition on the subject, are crafted to help Her achieve
Her objectives.

Exactly. I've seen a lot of wildlife documentaries in the past year. They
provide an interesting perspective on "the mating dance". The male is
usually the loner seeking to please the female, who is networking with other
females, and provides the food and care for the pride (in the case of
lions). I've been struck by how instinctual hereditary evolution shows the
female as the guiding and uniting force of their society.

(2) But a Woman's power shapes Her as well as the males over which She
exercises it. Her power is constituted to advance the procreative process,
and while She may move Her males, both She and they are moved, and in the
end it is procreation that together they serve.

Yep, that is the plan ;)

(3) And while a Woman may be endowed with great power over males, the
control of that power towards Her purposes must be sought and achieved. If
She directs Her power poorly, or fails to direct it, if She does not control
it, in the end it may control Her and She may be the worse for it. [A
simple metaphor: a person in an automobile has power; if directed
effectively, if controlled, that power can take Her to places and afford
opportunities otherwise not accessible; if poorly directed or undirected, if
not well controlled, it can project Her into fatal impact against otherwise
harmless objects]. To control She must direct Her power, and to make it
serve Her She must direct it thoughfully. To not direct Her power is to
invite it to control Her.

That is the purpose of this mailing list and the femsupremacy movement, to
turn victimized and subjucated women into empowered women who in turn can
realize their power and influence society for the better.

Learning and growing, Paul/maidpaula



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:08:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-Id: <199607160508.WAA03021@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1995

Xymeretool@aol.com wrote:

With respect to all on the list (especially the Gynarchs),
femsupremacy list sounds more like a liberal think tank
than the incubator of a Female Supremacist revolution.

Sorry we're not sufficiently entertaining you or living up to what you
expect of us. ;) However, we are generally concerned with realism
here, the realism of changing the world for the better for instance.
Not the fantasy notion of "enslaving all men and treating them like
worms and there's never any revolts." This means we have discussions
about raising girls to have self esteem, raising boys not to be
bullies, legal systems that punish the wrong people, what things are
like in various countries, etc. Perhaps you are looking for a femdom
forum.

And the males seem to be leading the discussion in
many cases. i thought Femsupremacy list would be
an organizing tool for Wimmin and a place where males
could receive instruction in how to be living tools of the
Gynarchs.

That's interesting, because I see women leading and involved in a lot
of the discussions. And, if this was an organizing tool for women, we
wouldn't allow men on it. ;) As far as instruction...you do receive
instructions. Pay attention to what the women here say. You'll get a
lot of good advice, IMO.

i wanted to learn from Ms. Laura Goodwin
Ms. Patricia, Ms. Dee-Ann, Ms. Kalika, and others.
Because i am trying to be a new male, i will not complain
about these things ... but as a male i am allowed to
wonder. meretool

If you want to learn, then pay attention. And don't try to treat the
women here like we're all obligated to be your mentors, because we
aren't your servants in that sense.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: male still wondering
Message-Id: <199607160557.WAA03063@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2528

Jon Woolven wrote:

- Wimmin? Yuck, what a horrible word. It conjures up images of nursery school
children
learning to spell. Okay, so 'women' contains the dreaded letters 'm-e-n' but
can't we
consider the 'w-o' to mean something more rather than something less?

I dislike "wimmin" for linguistic reasons. "A long time ago" the word
"man" didn't mean the male of the species, it meant "person." So,
linguistically, taking the word "man" out of "woman" removes the
humanity from "woman". However, this is why I personally choose not
to use it.

[some deleted]

In my opinion, female superiority lies in their
life-nurturing ability
(whether they choose to exercise it or not) and their emotional balance. The
aggressive
male hormones are just not appropriate to the modern world and every nation is
struggling with the problems arising from this. More women exercising greater
authority
is undoubtedly part of the solution, but this does not mean that men should be
reduced
to the status of 'living tools' (except in our fantasies).

I agree. Both sexes look at the world in different ways, and it's
good to have both points of view. And, well, living tools can be fun
on a temporary basis. ;) But, personally, I hate having a partner
who I have to make all of the decisions for. It gets old. If I can't
decide on what movie I want to go to, or what kind of food I feel like
having, I want another opinion. Sometimes, I just don't want to have
to think. :)

[some more deleted]

- If we are to build a better world (rather than a better fantasy world) then we
must let
our intellects prevail. According to mine, we should revere the virtues of
women, yet
also recognise each person as an individual. If that is so, then ideas should
be
judged on their merit, whatever the gender of the contributor.

Agreed again. :) I love it when a lot of the women on the list get
involved in the discussions, but the men's opinions aren't any less
valid. I simply enjoy being able to get multiple women's points of
view.

Don't forget that there are simply more men than women on the
Internet, so of course there will be more men in most online forums
than there are women.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:15:34 -0700
From: Alchemy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960715231619.2147a7ec@pop.ni.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Friends,

I will apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I feel that the
ideas I want to share with all of you are very important; at least they have
been for me. Further, I want to apologize to anyone who might have felt ill
at ease about my previous post regarding "self abnegation." I received
several personal replies that got me thinking about this issue, and this
post is a summation of that thinking. Thanks especially to "Xymeretool" and
to David Land.

-----------

A few days ago I posted a message regarding self abnegation. Since then I
received a few replies privately and tonight I read through a series of
messages that if not directly addresing my issue at least speak to it. I
must say I am impressed (and delighted) with the quality of the conversation.

Since my initial post last week I have driven to San Jose and back to Los
Angeles, about 7 hours each way. That gave me a lot of time to think about
the issue of Female Supremacy and about my own state of mind regarding that
issue. I would now like to add my voice to this really delightful "cocktail
party," that is, the ongoing conversation about Female Superiority.

The real issue for me, that arose out of my reflection on the responses I
had received, is FEAR. I had to conclude that I am fearful of giving up
control, and yet I am drawn to it. I have an undeniable urge to match up
with a powerful female and at the same time I am fearful of that very thing
happening. Why might that be?

In our patriarchal culture we are brought up in the myth of male supremacy -
the masculine principle stands behind all the science and technology that
make life, for virutally the whole planet, what it is today. To be a male
and to abrogate that myth in one's personal life is to figuratively "die" to
the prevailing culture. My fear of submitting to the Feminine Supremacy
principle, therefore, is closely linked to a fear of *death*: of course it
is nervous-making; of course I back off, resist, and deny. But is resistence
or denial the proper course of action? My thoughts turned to the work of
James Fazer.

James Frazer, a 19th century mythologist and author of "The Golden Bough",
explored the motif in mythology and ritual of the periodic killing of the
current ruling principle (the chief, the priest, the king, the emporer, or
whatever) that occurs in virtually all cultures and in many myths. He
proposed that this mythic theme speaks to the issue of a *universal* need to
periodically revivify the culture. His notion was that the life of the
culture was believed to be a function of the vitality of the ruling
principle. The ruling principle (being human) will age and get stuck in old,
outmoded ways. In order to assure the vitality of the land, and therefore
the people of the land, the aging and outmoded ruler must be periodically
replaced by a young and vigorous principle - hence the many myths and
cultural practices of killing the king.

How does this mytheme relate to Female Supremacy? I thought about my own
fear (connected to death) and that thought somehow linked me to Frazer's
notion of revitalizing the culture. Could the rise of Feminine Superiority
in our culture be an example of replacing the outmoded, reified, ossified
ruling principle of masculine superiority with a "younger", more vital, more
invigorating principle of Feminine Superiority? Are we culturally due for a
major role reversal because we have been so long ruled by the masculine
principle that it is no longer vital, but in fact has become poisonous,
destructive, and is bringing us dangerously close to world (Mother Earth)
destruction? Frazer's idea of periodic revitalization (which, by the way, is
symbolized by the snake shedding its skin) or renewal of the cultural ruling
principle seems to fit well with the emergence of Feminism, and with Women's
acknowledgement of and possession of Their power. Is that *scary* to men?
YOU BET! It is the virtual death of patriarchy and in that death lies
complete surrender, complete submission to the Female principle. Am I
afraid? Yes .... terrrified. But I take courage in the notion of sacrifice
(of the male principle) as the path to redemption. If Female supremacy can
redeem this planet, revitalize our cultures and our environment, and save us
from destruction at the hand of the masculine principle then I have no other
choice but to submit.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:17:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <199607160617.XAA03082@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1910

David Land wrote:

Arguably, self-abnegation is a motive, like many other motives which
have been identified. As such, it is a need that is felt more strongly by
certain individuals in certain circumstances.

Here's the way I see it...

Yes, sometimes it's a motive. Generally, when it's a motive, there is
the hope that presenting oneself as a worthless worm will attract an
owner. The thing is, does the person really feel this way? Any owner
they attract will not be pleased at all with them if they turn out not
to feel that way on the inside.

However, often self-abnegation is a symptom. It can be a symptom of
low self-esteem. It can also be a simple symptom of being
uncomfortable with one's "submissive" nature. The problem is that
both of these items aren't incredibly healthy for the individual in
question. I don't find partners who feel there's something wrong with
their submissive side to be a comfortable match for me...I don't enjoy
watching them battle with themselves and think there's something wrong
with them for being who they are. This is, of course, my own personal
take on things.

The judgement of other people's motives is an activity performed on
thin ice.

Yes, it is. However, when I see the same "symptoms" show up in
quite a large number of folks, I generally want to understand why
they're using their particular approach. Once I can see why they're
using it (e.g. just to find a partner, low self-esteem, discomfort
with being submissive) then I know how to deal with it for the most
part.

So don't assume folks are always necessarily judging. ;)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:54:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <199607160654.XAA21477@netcom22.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1747

Alchemy posted something that I hope everyone will read.

I have never read anything here written by a male that so closely matches
my own thinking from beginning to end. You even use many of the same
tools and I supsect have more than a nodding acqauintance (more than
mine, certainly) with Jung and Joseph Campbell and with mythic thinking
in general. You voice real fears, as do I.

We may fear the Matriarchal future, but I for one fear the Earth-killing,
greed-driven, life-hating, sterile, covetous present far more.

The Kali / shiva dance that informs the Ancient Future =is= terrifying, no
doubt, but look beyond the necessary death it depicts and see the renewal
it also promises. Kali's conquering foot is not crushing shiva, nor has
She cut his throat. He must trust Her, and submit to Her, for She is
holding him still long enough for him to revive. Then he will dance with
Her again in a new world She has made safe with Her terrible swift sword.

I have even discovered that this myth parallels the one that already
informs my own path, and it's likely that anyone can make that leap, once
confidently connected with their own mythic roots.

Hey, consider the alternative. If we stay here, prisoners of our fear, we
freeze to death in the dark. :[

Thank you for this.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:54:47 -0700
From: Alchemy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960715235530.21470f16@pop.ni.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:17 PM 7/15/96 -0700, you wrote:
David Land wrote:

Arguably, self-abnegation is a motive, like many other motives which
have been identified. As such, it is a need that is felt more strongly by
certain individuals in certain circumstances.



Dee Ann LeBlanc answered:
Here's the way I see it...

Yes, sometimes it's a motive. Generally, when it's a motive, there is
the hope that presenting oneself as a worthless worm will attract an
owner. The thing is, does the person really feel this way? Any owner
they attract will not be pleased at all with them if they turn out not
to feel that way on the inside.

However, often self-abnegation is a symptom. It can be a symptom of
low self-esteem. It can also be a simple symptom of being
uncomfortable with one's "submissive" nature. The problem is that
both of these items aren't incredibly healthy for the individual in
question. I don't find partners who feel there's something wrong with
their submissive side to be a comfortable match for me...I don't enjoy
watching them battle with themselves and think there's something wrong
with them for being who they are. This is, of course, my own personal
take on things.

Thank you Dee Ann for that very cogent reply to a thorny issue. Comming to
terms with my own submissive side feels like an heroic adventure: I have had
to face many "dragons", and I have the help of many mentors and spiritual
advisors along the way. I don't think I have yet reached the final outcome
of the adventure: apotheosis; but, I know that my vision is continually
being expanded, and my heart is learning to lead the way. What more can one
ask? Thanks to *all* who contribute to this list. This conversation is very
well worth having.

Alchemy

_______________

I touch the earth, I touch the sky, and in between am I.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <199607161443.HAA13532@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Alchemy wrote:
...I would now like to add my voice to this really delightful "cocktail
party," that is, the ongoing conversation about Female Superiority.

Heh. Before I start quibbling, let me first say that your voice appears
to be cogent, coherent, and well read - quite a welcome addition to the
cocktail party. I even agree, at least in part, with much of what you
wrote. But.... "Female Superiority" isn't of necessity the official theme
of the party, though is certainly is a topic that engenders a fair amount
of discourse.

Desiring and supporting female supremacy doesn't mean a person has to con-
cede or conclude that the male of the species is inferior; as one of the
more atavisticly primitive types here, I know I don't feel that womankind
in general is superior to me. Different enough in some particulars, and
yes, better in some; enough so that I tend to think that humanity and the
other inhabitants of this planet would be better off with more good women
handling the reins.

The real issue for me, ... is FEAR. I had to conclude that I am fearful
of giving up control, and yet I am drawn to it. I have an undeniable urge
to match up with a powerful female and at the same time I am fearful of
that very thing happening. Why might that be?

In our patriarchal culture we are brought up in the myth of male supremacy
the masculine principle stands behind all the science and technology that
make life, for virutally the whole planet, what it is today.

Male supremacy hasn't been a myth - depending on who you speak to, males
have been "highest in power, authority, and rank" for perhaps a thousand
years, perhaps much longer, over most of the globe. The -myths-, IMO, are
two-fold : first, that technology and science are a/the masculine principle.
They aren't - but a good many people would just as soon have women keep on
thinking that math, science, engineering and other such endeavors are better
left to the boys. The 'masculine principle' here, the same one which has
made our planet what it is today, is power. Power through wealth, power via
a monopoly on knowledge and education, through laws, weapons, and force, as
well as a lust for increasing and maintaining power, regardless of the cost
to the environment, to other people, or even to future generations.

Technology isn't evil, or male (and no, I'm not even coming close to saying
the two are synomymous
tools (even living tools) can be abused and put to ill use. The internet is
one such tool - abused by some, yes, but also the facilitator of this mail
list, as well as many others, that allow information, knowledge, and opinions
to be widely spread in a manner quite impossible without technology.

With as many humans as we have on the earth today, there's no way to do away
with it and revert to a universally simple agrarian way of life. Not unless
you decide the deaths of hundreds of millions to starvation, exposure, and
disease is simply "acceptable losses". (Yes - there may well be enough food
to currently feed everybody - but try transporting it to where it's needed
w/o technology. Millions would die in places like New York City and Chicago
not to mention other parts of the world.) Even peacefully curbing explosive
population growth to allow maintainable levels will likely be impossible w/o
science and hi-tech means for birth control and education. It's just a matter
of -not- allowing them to continue to be used primarily as the twin (male)
demons of science and technology anymore.

Oh - the second myth: that this is the way things have to be. That male
types (both men and women) must continue to control such things, and see to
their use for weaponry, control, and profit. Or has noone else here not-
iced that advances in, say, medicine, are going pretty slowly these days?
No profit in a -cure- for diabetes or AIDS, not when there's so much more
in milking people over and over for expensive medication instead.

[James Frazer's] notion was that .... The ruling principle (being human)
will age and get stuck in old, outmoded ways. In order to assure the
vitality of the land, and therefore the people of the land, the
aging and outmoded ruler must be periodically replaced by a young and
vigorous principle - hence the many myths and cultural practices of killing
the king.

Not only that, but it followed the seasonal cycles (an important piece of
symbolism to many early cultures) and was a means of preventing extremes
of hubris such as those seen in Egypt. No divine Godkings obsessed with
their own importance, no great monuments to themselves being built at great
expense of both life and materials. (Yet another reason for term limits,
and for a guillotine on the steps of important government sites such as the
halls of Congress?)

It is the virtual death of patriarchy and in that death lies complete
surrender, complete submission to the Female principle. Am I afraid? Yes
.... terrrified. But I take courage in the notion of sacrifice (of the
male principle) as the path to redemption. If Female supremacy can redeem
this planet, revitalize our cultures and our environment, and save us
from destruction at the hand of the masculine principle then I have no
other choice but to submit.

Redemption, revitalization of the environment and our cultures - indeed,
very worthy causes to make sacrifices for. But "complete surrender &
submission"? If womankind were to go to male extremes and insist on comp-
lete subjugation, perhaps - but then they'd have become the monster they
sought to slay. More likely, in my eyes, than the death of patriarchy, is
the (oh, so) slow and subtle changing of the systems of government and
business, until they're guided more by "feminine principles" of respect for
diversity, respect for the environment, and concern for the generations yet
unborn.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #150
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 151

Today's Topics:
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: help (fwd)
Re: help (fwd)
Re: Thanks for the memories
Genderquake
Re: Thanks for the medicine
Re: Thanks for the memories
Self-abnegation/Self-abasement
Re: Thanks for the medicine
YMMV.
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: Self Abnegation
Re: YMMV.
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: help (fwd)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:13:49 -0400
From: Lookgood@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-ID: <960716111346_361272956@emout07.mail.aol.com

Very insightful, i appreciate Your comments and sharing them with us all.
From: Lookgood

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 96 15:25:10 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-ID: <960716192509_100410.1764_BHG30-1@CompuServe.COM

Coyote - or anyone else,

I've just spent five fascinating minutes trying to think of an occasion when
I might want to say YMMV (Your mileage may vary). Still nothing comes to mind
and I'm sure I'm missing something here.

Please help.

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:52:53 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-ID: <31EC1D45.7845@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

how about this...I am a very fast broad, but understand that YMMV...
Patricia

Jon Woolven wrote:

Coyote - or anyone else,

I've just spent five fascinating minutes trying to think of an occasion when
I might want to say YMMV (Your mileage may vary). Still nothing comes to mind
and I'm sure I'm missing something here.

Please help.

Jon

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jul 96 16:02:12 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-ID: <960716200212_100410.1764_BHG98-1@CompuServe.COM

Alchemy wrote:
It is the virtual death of patriarchy and in that death lies complete
surrender, complete submission to the Female principle. Am I afraid? Yes ....
terrrified. But I take courage in the notion of sacrifice (of the male
principle) as the path to redemption. If Female supremacy can redeem this
planet, revitalize our cultures and our environment, and save us from
destruction at the hand of the masculine principle then I have no other choice
but to submit.

I really enjoyed your post, but I can't support your reasoning. Why does the
end of one
extreme have to lead to another? Has the ending of apartheid in South Africa
led to
'complete submission to the black principle'? I think not.

You seem to suggest that we are on an inevitable path to Female Supremacy, but
that seems
too complacent to me. I think we all need to work hard to create the world we
want, it's not
going to just happen around us. Have I misunderstood your argument here?

I'm not sure yet whether I would really prefer Female Supremacy in the sense you
express it or
a society built on a balance of male and female values. I'm still thinking it
through and I'm sure
this forum will continue to help. I presume we all agree about the direction
we currently need to
move in though, away from a disasterous over-emphasis on patriarchal values.
And I'm not
in the least bit terrified about that prospect, only about what will become of
us if we don't.

In reply to Alchemy's letter, Chase said 'there's no profit in a cure for AIDS'.
Are you kidding? Just watch how rich someone gets should it ever happen!
Producing drugs for the sick has always been and will always be a very
profitable business.

Jon


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:38:29 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Genderquake
Message-ID:

We have both just watched what we think was episode two in this channel
4 (UK) series being broadcast on Tuesdays at 8pm.

Whilst not explicitly fem-supremacist, its basic thesis will be well
recognised by list members. The series appears to be sensitively
presented by Susan Tully and well presents the dilemmas and
opportunities the 1990's present in Britain to both sexes. Robert was
intrigued to see his Genesis theory receive hidden recognition in the
notion that todays British man is in danger of blaming woman for his
economic woes.

Is anyone else on the list, able to watch, willing to offer comment (we
always seem rushed to write the tomes some folk manage)? Next week it is
the family which will be under the spotlight.
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:27:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the medicine
Message-Id: <199607162027.NAA21661@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In reply to my "there's no profit in a cure for AIDS", Jon wrote:
Are you kidding? Just watch how rich someone gets should it ever happen!
Producing drugs for the sick has always been and will always be a very
profitable business.

Never said there wasn't a huge and lucrative business in producing drugs.
But, there's a difference between drugs/medicine to treat a disease and
finding a cure for it. Take diabetes as an example - people who wind up
with serious cases of it have to keep taking insulin pretty much for life,
buying and replacing expensive gadgets to diagnose their blood sugar levels
and whatnot. This means companies can keep on making money off each
diabetic pretty much indefinately. In contrast, a -cure- would deprive
them of that long term market for other drugs and services. Even an
expensive cure woudln't make up for their lost profits.

There's fortunes to be made in treating disease; not nearly so much in
finding a cure, and little or none in preventative treatment to ensure
people don't get sick. At one point, the medical researchers didn't
work for big pharmaceuticals the way most do now - and even without the
corporate funding, they managed to pretty much eradicate smallpox, TB,
leprosy, and polio from much of the world.

Contrast that to how long cures have been expected for MS, AIDS, diabetes
and others. Personally, I tend to believe that at least part of the
reason such things haven't been found is conflict of interest; large
corporate (patriarchal) entities don't really have much use for altruism
or philanthropism. Not like they do for being able to charge 5000 for a
medicine that costs 30 to produce....

And even when they -do- something good, for humanity or the environment,
they tend to spend twenty or thirty grand for a project, and half a
million to publicize what a great thing they did.

YMMV'ism : When I'm down in the dumps, I find that a dozen good swings
from a cane can provide catharsis and cheer me up. YMMV. ;-

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:55:23 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960716215523.00696c9c@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:15 PM 7/15/96 -0700, jdens wrote:


I take courage in the notion of sacrifice
(of the male principle) as the path to redemption. If Female supremacy can
redeem this planet, revitalize our cultures and our environment, and save us
from destruction at the hand of the masculine principle then I have no other
choice but to submit.

Male sacrifice is a deep and multilayered topic worthy of the finest
minds...I'm glad you brought it up.

Speaking on a purely sexual level, it can be said that the male's erection
grows, lives, and dies. Orgasm is sometimes called "the little death".
When the semen leaves the penis, it can be seen as a metaphor for how the
soul leaves the body at the moment of death. To die in battle (for a noble
cause, example: intercourse) is considered better than to die in bed (alone,
example: masturbation). The penis is sometimes spoken of as if it were a
person or personality in its own right: many guys name their penises, and
speak to/of it as if it were a pal or pet. This "little guy" is the man's
representative, the ambassador to the foreign and mysterious land of Cunt.
;) He goes off with his head high, bearing gifts, (the promise of pleasure)
but represents a nation with an army (the sperm cells!). He can also be a
traitor who turns on his master, importing disease, or failing to fulfill
his mission.

The male must be willing to risk all, even death, to fulfill his masculine
urges. That women are very scary to men is proof enough that this
willingness is a natural and rightful male emotion. Men must overcome their
fear of women from within, or have their fear conquered from without by the
women, or the species can't survive.

One way to do this is to subjugate women in general and domesticate them.
This has been tried, and doesn't seem to work real well. Another method is
to get men all fired up at sexual orgies and encourage general
licentiousness periodically, which works fairly well, procreatively
speaking, but is a poor way to prevent the spread of disease. Another
method is to enslave men, but some of the better types of men can't mate in
captivity: they need a more permissive social atmosphere. We have reached
the point in human history where education and training of both sexes seems
the best way to go.

I'm convinced that if the human race is to overcome superstition and
institute free and sane sexual mores, that women must insist on leading the
way and always having a big, fat say. Men will benefit as much as women if
all kinds of sexual relationships are engaged in by informed, fully
consenting adults. At this point, the best sacrifice men can make is to
sacrifice their mistaken ideas about cock-privilege.

When men have given up the habit of keeping women subordinate at all costs,
it will be the most glorious sacrifice their sex have ever made, and will
win them bragging rights. ;)



Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:40:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Self-abnegation/Self-abasement
Message-Id: <199607162240.RAA18127@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Murray, in a classic taxonomy of motives, identified self-abasement,
which refers to placing oneself "under" or "lesser than" some other. There
is a stupendous tradition of male self-abasement in western civilization.
Consider the monastery, where monks placed themselves under the rule of the
abbott.
There is a marvelous fit betwixt a male with a need for
self-abasement and a female with a need for power.
Others may be indifferent to this dynamic.
There may be a risk of criticising or dismissing that which one does
not understand. In the Olden Days, Bob Dylan said "don't". For the old
world now is constantly changing. And the first one now will later be last.
For the times they are a-changing.

DL

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 01:54:17 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thanks for the medicine
Message-Id: <199607162353.BAA24235@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:27:13 -0700 (PDT), Chase Vogelsberg wrote:

corporate (patriarchal) entities don't really have much use for altruism
or philanthropism. Not like they do for being able to charge 5000 for a
medicine that costs 30 to produce....

They charge 5000 not because it costs 5000 to make, but because it cost a
billion to develop.

I agree that it's hard to define what an ethically acceptable profit is,
when you're profitting off of the misfortune of others.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 01:58:24 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: YMMV.
Message-Id: <199607162357.BAA24763@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 16 Jul 96 15:25:10 EDT, Jon Woolven wrote:

I've just spent five fascinating minutes trying to think of an occasion when
I might want to say YMMV (Your mileage may vary). Still nothing comes to mind
and I'm sure I'm missing something here.

It's my understanding, that this expression originates from the ads of car
manufacturers. They state the mileage in the ad, but since the mileage is
highly dependent on several variables that they can't control, when the
customer uses the car IRL, they say, that "your mileage may vary" to protect
themselves. It's odd though that one never gets a lower fuel consumption than
they advertize. The mileage seems to vary in only one direction ;).

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:54:46 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kalika
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <199607170055.AAA12509@netbox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Alchemy: Some thoughts.

Now, before you read this ... obviously these responses are MHO, also
obviously, they are not everyone else's cup of tea ... so, I offer these as
perhaps a different perspective / voice that hopes to stimulate thought and
examination.

Also, I am quite concerned about the time factor to prevent *really* serious
repercussions from the current ecological , etc. mess we are all in. Hence I
call for a swift movement to, shall we say, the opposite end of the tetter
totter. In time, balance may be achieved, but at this time I feel a slow
progression may lose the race. (end of disclaimer


The real issue for me, that arose out of my reflection on the responses I
had received, is FEAR. ... Why might that be?

In our patriarchal culture we are brought up in the myth of male supremacy -

Exactly, it *is* a myth. Oh, it has been holding sway for some 10,000 years
or so, but is it a sustainable, longer term ecologically (in the broadest
sense of the term ecologically) ... is it an ecologically sound reality ?
I think not and the evidence is manifest all around us. I honestly believe
that it simply is a myth, one the usurper patriarchy has instilled (re:
brainwashed) in *all* of us, regardless of gender.

Even thought it is a myth, it still has power, and hence pulling free from
that power is scary and hence fear arises. The true test is to push on
through one's fear to liberation (that which resides on the opposite shore
from fear).

My fear of submitting to the Feminine Supremacy
principle, therefore, is closely linked to a fear of *death*:

I would strongly suggest that you read some materials dealing with Shiva and
the nature of the relationship between Shiva (the male principle) and Kali
(representative of the Feminine Principle). Death has many forms, such as
death of ego, death of male pride, .... *everything* does not refer to
physical termination. Some things in life are harder than death (really).


Could the rise of Feminine Superiority in our culture be an example of
replacing the outmoded, reified, ossified ruling principle of masculine
superiority with a "younger", more vital, more invigorating principle of
Feminine Superiority?

IMO this certainly is the case. Also, IMO, I believe that this "change" is
at this time unstoppable ... time frames are another matter. The "Ages" are
moving / changing and we can get on board or not, with subsequent benefits
or perils to ourselves and the Holy Mother Earth.

the masculine principle that it is no longer vital, but in fact has become
poisonous, destructive, .....

Has it ever been anything else but ?

It is the virtual death of patriarchy and in that death lies
complete surrender, complete submission to the Female principle.

Well said. This "death" of the patriarchy is *sooooo* long overdue, my bones
ache for it to leave.

"...complete submission to the Female Principle." Is this not the *true*
role / manifest reality of the male principle ?


But I take courage in the notion of sacrifice (of the male principle) as
the path to redemption.

It is one of the real "odd" elements of liberation ... often it requires the
seeming opposite to happen for that to occur. Namely, in surrender to the
Feminine Principle, the male principle finds it's liberation. (This can
often occur in a very personal manner also, as I am certain many of the list
readers are well aware of.

If Female supremacy can redeem this planet, revitalize our cultures and our
environment, and save us from destruction at the hand of the masculine
principle then I have no other choice but to submit.

You don't have a choice if any of the above are of interest to you.
patriarchy is a bust, an evolutionary error / mistake.

Kalika

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:06:30 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Self Abnegation
Message-ID: <31EB1546.3A3B@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

When you look in the mirror who do you see? Do you like yourself generally? We all
have things we don't like. But generally, are you comftorable with the person you've
become? Are you comftorable with your gender, your attitude toward women, your outlook
on marriage, your relationship to your boss, especially if she's a woman? If you feel
insecure, angry, confused or upset, then there is still growth that must take place,
which is normal. To be male is to be confused. We are sent mixed signals from our
earliest years. "Be strong, don't cry, stand up straight, be a man, Punch him back!
don't act like a little girl, did you get any, are you chicken, you've never done it?,
never tell her you love her, why buy the cow when you get the milk for free, henpecked,
wus, p___y whipped, stand up to her, you gonna let her push you around, I wouldn't let
my wife tell me what to do, wives should submit to their husbands, be submissive, the
man is the head of the home, on and on and on! NO wonder we are confused and don't have
a clue! And sad to say, often we learn these irrational attitudes from women as well as
men. After years of reacting to women in a typical male way, I've started questioning
my every attitude to see if it really makes sense. Guess what? Often it doesn't. My
wife's kind and unselfish way of handling things has shown me that she has my best
interests in mind, and I have always benefited when I've followed her guidance. When it
comes to matters of the heart she has a Ph.D. and I'm in grade school. So I've
overridden that nagging macho voice deep in my primitive psyche, and it feels great to
be in touch with that human, gentler side of humanity. The kinder gentler virtues that
make life worth living. To sit still, be quite and learn from my lady, and the ladies
on this forum like Dee Ann and others, has opened a whole new world to me.
To have women friends, to talk to them as equals and not just a place to get affection
or sexual gratification is a deeply enriching experience, and one our society does not
promote. The world is changing, and we are part of a wonderful thing. High testocerone
types like myself and Twolf, some of the reflective type of men like C.S., and others
are amazing for me to listen to. It's important that we can hear the voices of other
men who are on the path we are, it helps. Peace and Love to you all. Sorry, couldn't
help myself,
oh boy, so emotional, whew, unchartered territory, what the hell!!!

"The light that shines on EVERY person that comes into the world."
1 John 1:9

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:22:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To:
cc: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: YMMV.
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends:

Didn't my message of a few days ago get through? YMMV standsfor
Your Mistress May Vary", signifying that what works for the sender's
Domme may not work for all Dommes.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:30:29 -0400
From: Robert Hoffer
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-ID: <31EC5045.793C@nerds.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi People,

I've been following these links and am curious about certain
philosophies I'm encountering in the Femsupremacy movement.

While it seems clear that women potentially have a dominant biological
role, and can have a socially dominant role as well, the idea that men
subjugate women as a group effort, through thoughtful and conspiratal
behavior is highly questionable.

First, the men who are most likely to subjugate are likely the least
intelligent of our sex - these are the brutes, the jocks, not the
thinkers, rather the hunters, not the leaders, rather the mindless
followers. I'm willing to bet that these men can't find their way onto
the internet, let alone into a rational discourse on the subject of
gender authority. It's not like they've gotten together and said,
'let's subjugate women.' {Let's leave Muslems out of this for a second,
as that's exactly what they seem to have done}

Second, I've noticed a distinct tendency to jump to rash
generalizations. We've got too broad a behavior pool to generalize.
The only thing we can say here is that women have historically (and are
now) often in the position of being subordinate to men. Why is
enigmatic.

Clearly, Ms Goodwin, in her assertion that males must be willing to risk
death to copulate with women is well thought out and insightful,
however, if we are to make any rationalizations about our sex, it's that
men are driven to copulation by lust, not fear, and that I doubt if most
men are aware of the potential for death (symbollic or otherwise)
associated with their relationships with women.

Given an acceptance of a broad spectrum of male and female behavior, if
we also accept the notion of planned mass subjugation of women, this
would doom the Femsuprem movement to fringe status. This doesn't mean
that it won't find an active following, it just means that without
outwardly managing the impression for the uninitiated, most people will
fear the movement and avoid its message.

I suggest we create a newsletter for women (wives in particular), tone
down or mask the messege a touch and gear the language towards the a
less sophisticated audience.

Any takers?

Robert Hoffer

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-Id: <199607170249.TAA06637@netcom2.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1144

Jon wrote:

Coyote - or anyone else,

I've just spent five fascinating minutes trying to think of an occasion when
I might want to say YMMV (Your mileage may vary). Still nothing comes to mind
and I'm sure I'm missing something here.

Please help.

I always use it to mean,

'If you try this, you may get a [slightly] different outcome.'
or
'It works for me, but there is no guarantee it will work for you.'

Magnus explained the origins (and pitfalls) of the expression from auto
ads.

What surprises me is that everyone but we USers are now metric,
yet the term mileage persists. Well, 'Your clicks may vary' sounds
a bit unhandy, especially to the computist. :P
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #151
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 152

Today's Topics:
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: help (fwd)
Re: Thanks for the memories
The Personal and the Collective
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: Thanks for the medicine
Re: Thanks for the medicine
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: YMMV.
Re: Thanks for the medicine
Re: Thanks for the medicine
Re: Thanks for the memories

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <199607170323.UAA10240@netcom2.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2563


Alchemy wrote:
It is the virtual death of patriarchy and in that death lies complete
surrender, complete submission to the Female principle. Am I afraid? Yes ....
terrrified. But I take courage in the notion of sacrifice (of the male
principle) as the path to redemption. If Female supremacy can redeem this
planet, revitalize our cultures and our environment, and save us from
destruction at the hand of the masculine principle then I have no other choice
but to submit.

To which Jon responded (in part):

I really enjoyed your post, but I can't support your reasoning. Why
does the end of one extreme have to lead to another? Has the ending
of apartheid in South Africa led to 'complete submission to the black
principle'? I think not.

Indeed not. Try this:

Apartheid was the male principle, the patriarchal vision,
rigorously applied. An extreme, certainly. _Neef Boer_ ran the
show, as a thundering, wrathful God had ordained him to do.

The new South Africa seems to be emerging as the Female Principle
at work, to the great relief of all. The vision of many (black)
African extremists to off or expel the white population was rejected.
Instead Nelson Mandela and _Neef Boer_ himself (in the persons of
of FW De Klerk and Pik Botha, especially) decided to surrender to
one one another, Nelson to abandon 'the Struggle,' and FW to junk
not only _apartheid_ but white supremacy altogether. They literally
emraced one another, and the whites had much more to lose, much
further to go. Yet now _all_ were embraced, all were included,
all gathered around the vision at the center.

Justice for all? The Millenium? Nah. No way. But if the extremists had
had their way- on either end, that country would now be an inferno.

The point:
the male principle is _peripheral_, extreme and excluding.
The Feminine Principle is at, and stands for, the _center_
and is inclusive, not an extreme.
It's a circle we're looking at, not a linear scale.
Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 07:06:57 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: help (fwd)
Message-Id: <199607170515.HAA20995@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:49:50 -0700 (PDT), Coyote Sings wrote:

What surprises me is that everyone but we USers are now metric,

The British too are still using their thumbs and feet ;). They are
approaching the SI system though ... inch by inch ;).

yet the term mileage persists. Well, 'Your clicks may vary' sounds

It persists in the English language. Probably because it's a handy
expression, that perhaps has taken on a meaning of its own separate from its
link to the mile.

I don't think we have a corresponding expression in Swedish. We just say
fuel consumption.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:18:53 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <199607170713.JAA14038@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In reply to Alchemy's letter, Chase said 'there's no profit in a cure for
AIDS'.
Are you kidding? Just watch how rich someone gets should it ever happen!
Producing drugs for the sick has always been and will always be a very
profitable business.

I am afraid that people trying to get medical aid to the Third World would
not agree. Drugs to cure typical TW ailments such as bilharziosis or malaria
simply are not interesting projects to the big medical businesses -- the
customers would not be able to pay for the treatment.

TWolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:52:40 -0700
From: Alchemy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: The Personal and the Collective
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960716235325.22c79352@pop.ni.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

So much richness of thought has flowed through this forum that it seems
difficult to get a handle on it all. Every post has been enlightening and
insightful. In reviewing the messages I have a sense that they basically
fall into one of two categories: personal psychology on the one hand, and
collective psychology on the other. The one affects the other, and so both
are important to understand.

In the arena of personal psychology I would place all those posts that speak
to sexuality, sexual identity, role playing, relationship, fetish, fantasy,
etc. These are all personal preferences and are embedded in the psyches of
the individual. These issues speak to how one particular person will relate
to another particular person. These issues are very important and airing
them in a forum such as is provided by this list server gives each of us a
chance to bring into consciousness the urges, fantasies, ideas, stories - in
short, the "myths" - that drive us. Someone once said "The unexamined life
is not worth living," or something to that effect. I certainly support that
notion. The unexamined life is rather like growing mushrooms: keep them in a
dark place covered with shit. The examined life is more like growing roses:
it takes a lot of sunshine and a lot of Bandini to grow a rose. The
difference between growing roses and growing mushrooms is the light of
consciousness versus the darkness of ignorance, denial, or repression.
Either way, "Bandini" is in the formula -- we all suffer, whether we suffer
alone, stupidly, and unconsciously, or connected to the collective,
healthily, and with creative imagination.

In the arena of collective psychology I would put all those issues that
affect all of us, as a community. For example, the health and well being of
the world environment, or the social order that determines the quality of
life for vast numbers of people. In this conversation we talk about feminine
and masculine principles on a cultural level. We ascribe the feminine
principle to the humanistic activities of peace, the arts, social discourse,
the care and feeding of the world's population, and, on a more personal
level, the care and feeding of one's family. To the masculine principle we
ascribe such activities as logical discourse, science and technology,
politics, and policing action (making and enforcing rules of behavior), and,
of course, the activities of war, both offensive and defensive.

There is no doubt in my mind that both the feminine and the masculine
principles have important roles to play in any society on both the cultural
and the personal levels. Which principle is appropriate for any given
situation on either the personal or the cultural level is best determined in
a state of consciousness rather than a state of reactionism, acculturation,
or fantasy.

I think it would be intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer,
for example, that on a personal level not *all* women will want to partner
with a submissive man, nor would all men want to have a dominant woman in
their life. (I use the terms "dominant" and "submissive" advisedly, as they
are highly charged terms. Understand it to indicate "out front" and "behind
the scenes"). On the other hand, not all men are "dominant", nor are all
women "submissive." Each man and each woman must come to terms with their
own personal character and find a life partner who will complement that
character.

On a collective level, we, as a nation, as a people, as a species, must come
to terms with our cultural character and what that means regarding our
relationship to Mother Earth. We simply must wake up to the fact that we
cannot go on raping and pillaging the environment. To do so is to live
entirely in a fantasy of failed masculine principle. It is simply
inappropriate, and even a modicom of conscious awareness will affirm it
intuitively.

How do we turn the tide? If we consider that the collective is, in fact, an
aggregation of the personal then we can see that changing individual,
personal behavior will result, utlimately, in a corresponding change in the
collective behavior -- call it the "trickle up" theory. My thought is that
by opening our individual, personal consciousness in regard to our
feminine/masculine self identity, by examining and coming to terms with our
personal sexual identity we can effect, over time, a corresponding coming to
terms with, or increase in consciousness of our feminine/masculine
principles on a collective level.

_______________________________________________________
I touch the earth, I touch the sky, and in between am I.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:52:26 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, rhoffer@nerds.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-ID: <20mIjFA6uJ7xEwwn@forsythe.demon.co.uk

In message <31EC5045.793C@nerds.com, Robert Hoffer
writes inter alia

First, the men who are most likely to subjugate are likely the least
intelligent of our sex - these are the brutes, the jocks, not the
thinkers, rather the hunters, not the leaders, rather the mindless
followers. I'm willing to bet that these men can't find their way onto
the internet, let alone into a rational discourse on the subject of
gender authority. It's not like they've gotten together and said,
'let's subjugate women.' {Let's leave Muslems out of this for a second,
as that's exactly what they seem to have done}

sorry, but cannot follow this,

for a fact plenty of the hunters are on the net witness the spams on
asf.

secondly would'nt chance be a fine thing if the leaders did not
subjugate women? it is intelligent men who make exquisite bullies and
subjugators.

Robert has met plenty enough male bullies personally from the ages of 5
to 30 something, history throws up a whole lot more (Hitler and Pol
Pot).

A nice loyal kind man does not need a high IQ.
if there is any correlation in this argument it is perhaps that society
has endeavoured to ensure that only the intelligent have had access to
resources of sensitivity,
but as plenty of new men's groups show sensitivity is no longer the
preserve of the aesthete.

BTW any out there familiar with UK telly may if they can go back
probably 20 years remember a prophetic Two Ronnies sketch about fem-
supremacy which was broadcast nationwide. Hilarious amd apparently utter
pie in the sky then, it has come suspiciously close to Robert's own
personal experience and what one perceives in the wider world.

If anyone else did see it, Nod (on the net)
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:18:06 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu
To:
cc: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thanks for the medicine
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, wrote:
corporate (patriarchal) entities don't really have much use for altruism
or philanthropism. Not like they do for being able to charge 5000 for a
medicine that costs 30 to produce....

They charge 5000 not because it costs 5000 to make, but because it cost a
billion to develop.

That's not necessarily the case. There is quite a bit of "market
skimming" in the industry. Many drugs pay for their R&D costs within the
first couple of years. Patented drugs lose their patents after 21(?)
years. Most corporations charge the highest price that they can expect to
maximize profits before the patents expire and generics enter the market

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the medicine
Message-Id: <199607171230.FAA24190@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, wrote:
corporate (patriarchal) entities don't really have much use for altruism
or philanthropism. Not like they do for being able to charge 5000 for a
medicine that costs 30 to produce....

They charge 5000 not because it costs 5000 to make, but because it cost a
billion to develop.

williams replied:
That's not necessarily the case. There is quite a bit of "market
skimming" in the industry. Many drugs pay for their R&D costs within the
first couple of years. Patented drugs lose their patents after 21(?)
years. Most corporations charge the highest price that they can expect to
maximize profits before the patents expire and generics enter the market

Another case in point - I don't remember the specific drug, but I do know
I saw specific, hard information on it. There's at least one medicine also
used by veterinarians for livestock. The same exact drug costs several
thousand dollars to prescribe for a human - but only around $7 for the
animals. It's not a question of recovering R&D costs much of the time,
it's a question of doing whatever they can to maximize profits.

And with the medical system, in particular insurance, being the way it is
in the USA, they know they can make obscene profits, because the price
-will- be paid, no matter that it's exorbitant.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland


First, the men who are most likely to subjugate are likely the least intelligent of our sex - these are the brutes, the jocks, not the
thinkers, rather the hunters, not the leaders, rather the mindless followers. I'm willing to bet that these men can't find their way onto
the internet, let alone into a rational discourse on the subject of gender authority. It's not like they've gotten together and said, 'let's subjugate women.' {Let's leave Muslems out of this for a second, as that's exactly what they seem to have done}

First, I'd like to know where the notion that only the least intelligent
males are prone to subjugation of the opposite sex (or anyone else) comes
from. True, the brutes aren't likely to get into rational discourse on
gender politics - many of them are far more accustomed to simply knocking
someone around until they get their way. But so do a lot of intelligent
types. Why? Because it works. But the intelligent ones are also more
able to quote religious texts, philosophers, and social dogma to support
their assertions that a woman should be quiet, meek, and not ever seen to
disagree with her husband.

"Not the thinkers, rather the hunters"? Non-thinking hunters have tended
to die hungry, when survival depended in part on hunting. And while I've
always had a low view of the 'sheep', categorizing into leaders vs 'mind-
less followers' is an exceptionally simplistic bipolar viewpoint. Either
way, historically it -has- been the leaders who organized inequality and
subjugation, when their lesser peers were more inclined to subjugating on
a more personal basis - their wives, their children, their next-door
neighbors.

Finally, you're saying that the mindless can't find their way onto the
Internet? It doesn't take real genius to afford a personal computer these
days, and it certainly doesn't take smarts to acquire internet access via
Prodigy, AOL, MSN and other services that take a lowest common denominator
approach in order to attract the masses at hourly rates. Educational ac-
counts provide another huge group with internet access w/o requiring any
exceptional mental abilities. Hence the one line personal ads, the HNGs,
spam, trolls, and illiterates that are now found in abundance on the net.

And if the leaders have never gotten together and said "Let's subjugate women", it's more because they're busier with consolidating power over
entire populations and competing with their peers to amass yet more. But
by your own point, the Muslims -do- seem to have a policy of keeping women
down. So too has the Catholic Church, and the Hindus, and any number of
non-Muslem african groups.

Catholicism - no women priests, no contraception or birth control (if you
don't think having 6 children to take care of at home isn't a form of sub-
jugation, see how much time it leaves the caretaker for education, social
life, or networking), and more. The Hindus - very similar to the Muslims
in terms of women being forced to lead sheltered lives, and husbands /
fathers having immense control over their female kin. African and other
groups, with vaginal scarification of female children, making it so they
can't enjoy sex or have orgasms when they grow up, in the name of ensuring
fidelity to future husbands. All over the world, throughout history, laws
having been designed to prevent women from owning property, gaining educ-
ations, or acquiring power or personal freedoms.

Perhaps there's never been a formal conspiracy to deprive one gender of the
rights and privileges accorded the other - but a lot of evidence would sug-
gest otherwise.

(BTW, Robert - you're another person with a "Reply to:" line that's likely
to make replies go to you rather than the list...)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:34:10 -0400
From: Inferiorm@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: YMMV.
Message-ID: <960717083409_436030562@emout17.mail.aol.com

All the posts lately have been very cogent to my situation. however YMMV hits
the bullseye. i thank everybody for their insightful discussion. i am back on
the straight and narrow.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:37:38 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the medicine
Message-ID: <31ED24E2.4825@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

in reply to poor drug companies have to make a profit::::
In many cases, especially in the case of the most expensive drugs...the cost to private pharmaceutical companies is minimal...case-in-point.
Taxol..the super drug which is curing breast cancer, it comes from the bark of the Yew tree, all the research and development of this drug was done and paid for by the federal government. Our government spends billions of our tax dollars through the center for disease control on cures for many things. It was our tax dollars which did the R and D. When the feds had finally made Taxol ready for the consuming public they turned the drug over to a pharmaceutical company. When the final product Taxol was done..it cost the feds $50.00 per treatment with the drug (even after all our tax dollars went into it) .. the drug company that now owns it charges more than $1,000.00 per treatment with the drug.
This will happen with the AIDS innoculations too...the feds spent alot
of our money finding it and some private drug company will make a lot more money from us .. selling it at some exhorbitant price.
In most cases "We the People" pay the development costs.
Patricia

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, wrote:
They charge 5000 not because it costs 5000 to make, but because it cost a
billion to develop.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 17:08:12 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thanks for the medicine
Message-Id: <199607171507.RAA06585@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:37:38 -0700, Noble wrote:

In many cases, especially in the case of the most expensive drugs...the cost to private pharmaceutical companies is minimal...case-in-point.

Compare this to Losec, the ulcer drug that more or less made Astra what it
is today. As far as I know, Astra did all the research themselves, and
consequently they are entitled reap the benifits.

Taxol..the super drug which is curing breast cancer, it comes from the bark of the Yew tree, all the research and development of this drug was done and paid for by the federal government. Our government spends billions of our tax dollars through the center for disease control on cures for many things. It was our tax dollars which did the R and D. When the feds had finally made Taxol ready for the consuming public they turned the drug over to a pharmaceutical company. When the final
Why? Are they really that stupid? Didn't they charge the company for the
right to the drug? Didn't they demand royalties based in the sale of the
product? Why not just produce it themselves, if the company refused to pay
for it?

This will happen with the AIDS innoculations too...the feds spent alot
of our money finding it and some private drug company will make a lot
more money from us .. selling it at some exhorbitant price.

There are no effective treatments to inhibit the development of AIDS from
the HIV virus today, is there?

You seem sure that the AIDS inihibitors will be developped by an American
company ;). FYI Swedish scientists are among the most successful in this area
according to the media, and an inhibitor for AIDS may become patented by a
number of non-American company. On the other hand corporations have no
national loyalty. Their only loyalty lies with Mammon.

You'd still pay excessive prices for the drug, but at least you won't have
payed for its development.

I just saw the list of the top ten corporations in the world in terms of
income last year. The complete list is available in Fortune according to the
article. The top three companies could more or less buy any country in the
world. That's where the real power lies today. With the teracorporations.
Yes, their incomes are measured in figures with 12 zeroes. This level of
financial power puts them in a position to blackmail almost any government in
the world, which in the end is a threat to democracy.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:15:41 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960717161541.00680884@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Robert Hoffer


Clearly, Ms Goodwin, in her assertion that males must be willing to risk death to copulate with women is well thought out and insightful, however, if we are to make any rationalizations about our sex, it's that men are driven to copulation by lust, not fear, and that I doubt if most men are aware of the potential for death (symbollic or otherwise) associated with their relationships with women.

I did not assert that men are driven by fear rather than lust, sexually
speaking. Obviously lust/admiration is the positive motivator. I said they
must overcome their fear of women one way or another to procreate. It's not
just fear of death, but of losing control, of seeming rediculous, of
failure, of rejection, of being hurt physically or emotionally, of social
problems that a coupling might create, of impregnating the female, of
catching a disease, of pissing off the other males that might have an
interest in the female in question...blah, blah, blah.

It's been well established that men who are afraid of women and what
relations with woman might lead to show great difficulty at every step of
the courtship/mating process. The sweet spot is that place where desire
and/or trust exceeds fear/repulsion, and positive action is initiated.
It's works in the same way for women, BTW. The way to be popular with women
is to win their admiration, and then find a way to put them at ease.
Providing lots of money and alcohol are the traditional shortcuts, but I
hope the men on this list have more elevated methods at their disposal. ;)






Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #152
************************************************

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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 153

Today's Topics:
Re: collage
collage-sorry about that
Re: Thanks for the memories
The Worm That Turned
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: Thanks for the medicine
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: The Village (Was another (Educ. Stat)
Re: The Worm That Turned
Re: Laura Goodwin
Re: Any Takers
Re: The Village (Was another (Educ. Stat)
Male Self-abasement and the Blues
Mentor
Re: Male Self-abasement and the Blues
A Farewell
unsubscribe
Re: A Farewell
Re: A Farewell

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: collage
Message-Id: <199607171642.JAA18212@germany.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

awhile back, Coyote Sings wrote:
and then Spirit Wind wrote:
=======================================================================
Coyote:
I discovered Female Supremacy simply by taking a good look at what
was already around me that made sense ... I looked
at what made me feel good about life ... it was all the good, constructive,
strong, life-giving energy of the Women around me ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spirit Wind:
My wife's kind and unselfish way of handling things has shown me that she
has my best interests in mind, and I have always benefited when I've
followed her guidance ... and it feels great to be in touch with that
human, gentler side of humanity ... the kinder gentler virtues that make
life worth living.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Makes one wonder how S/he could have ever missed it in the first place ...
it seems so obvious once you work your way through the distortions of early
indoctrination and begin to see things as they are. It helps I suppose
(speaking for my self of course) to be something of an outcast (call it
nutty ... that sounds better) ... to break loose from the insidious
influences of contemporary culture, and rediscover value where you find it.

=========================================================================
Coyote:
... and I have miles to go, but I can at least aspire to living without the
burdens of false pride and _machismo_ ... becoming a true gentle-man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And where does that false pride and machismo come from? (that's actually a rhetorical question, cause I think we already know the answer). I liked
Spirit Wind's list of things that we hear said over and over, until we
finally start saying them to ourselve, and eventually make them part of us ...

==========================================================================
Spirit Wind:
...
Be strong
don't cry
stand up straight
be a man
Punch him back
don't act like a little girl
did you get any
are you chicken
you've never done it?, never tell her you love her
why buy the cow when you get the milk for free
henpecked
p___y whipped
stand up to her
you gonna let her push you around
I wouldn't let my wife tell me what to do
wives should submit to their husbands
the man is the head of the home
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To sit still, be quite and learn from my lady, and the ladies on this forum like Dee Ann and others, has opened a whole new world to me. To have women friends, to talk to them as equals and not just a place to
get affection or sexual gratification is a deeply enriching experience, and one our
society does not promote. The world is changing, and we are part of a wonderful thing. High
testocerone types like myself and Twolf, some of the reflective type of men like C.S.,
and others are amazing for me to listen to. It's important that we can hear the voices
of other men who are on the path we are, it helps. Peace and Love to you all.
Sorry, couldn't help myself,
oh boy, so emotional, whew, unchartered territory, what the hell!!!

to be male is to be confused. We are sent mixed signals from our earliest years.

"The light that shines on EVERY person that comes into the world."
1 John 1:9

Spirit Wind

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:04:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: collage-sorry about that
Message-Id: <199607171704.KAA19327@germany.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In case anyone didn't notice, my last post may have seemed a bit unfinished
and peculiar in organization, and there was a bunch of stuff sort of hanging
on the end of it. Well, that's because it wasn't finished and it did have a
bunch of stuff hanging on the end of it. Somehow I seem to have gotten it
queued up to send by pushing some magic key combination in the process of
editing so that when I asked for new mail it sent my post off at the same
time. I'm not entirely sure that I was going to send it; I was really just
experimenting abit. Well, so there you have it. Computers can be
treacherous at times. I'd promise not to do that again, except I don't
really know what I did. So the best I can do is promise to try not to do
that again. ...Living proof of the fundamental inadequacy and inferiority
of the male gender (just kidding). zbobz


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:30:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <199607171830.LAA26093@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:
It's works in the same way for women, BTW. The way to be popular with women
is to win their admiration, and then find a way to put them at ease.
Providing lots of money and alcohol are the traditional shortcuts, but I
hope the men on this list have more elevated methods at their disposal. ;)

You mean, plying them with alcohol at higher altitudes where the effects of
alcohol are increased? ;-)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 96 15:39:11 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "(unknown)"
Subject: The Worm That Turned
Message-ID: <960717193910_100410.1764_BHG71-1@CompuServe.COM

The forsythes wrote:
BTW any out there familiar with UK telly may if they can go back probably 20 years remember a prophetic Two Ronnies sketch about fem- supremacy which was broadcast nationwide. Hilarious amd apparently utter pie in the sky then,
it has come suspiciously close to Robert's own personal experience and what one
perceives in the wider world. If anyone else did see it, Nod (on the net)
The Worm That Turned!
It was more than a sketch, it was a running sketch that ran through the series
and was
repeated a few years ago. Men without any democratic rights, the property of
their partners, dressing in frilly clothes to illustrate their submissive role.
Patrols of thigh booted women to keep order.

I loved it naturally, but to call it prophetic and what is happening in the
wider world, huh?
What's going on up there in Yorkshire (hope I remembered that right) and where
can I find
it?

Whilst I'm in this frame of mind, I heard recently that the men's volleyball
championship in Thailand was won by a team of transvestites this year. Despite their success,
none has
been selected to represent the national side! Make of that what you will, I'm
not going to
even attempt to analyse it.

P.S. Looking forward to a Forsythe Saga

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jul 96 16:27:14 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-ID: <960717202713_100410.1764_BHG105-1@CompuServe.COM

Alchemy wrote: It is the virtual death of patriarchy and in that death lies complete
surrender, complete submission to the Female principle.

I replied:
Why does the end of one extreme have to lead to another? Has the ending of apartheid in South Africa led to 'complete submission to the
black principle'? I think not.

Coyote responded:
Apartheid was the male principle, the patriarchal vision. The new South
Africa seems to be emerging as the Female Principle.
Justice for all? The Millenium? Nah. No way. But if the extremists had had their way- on either end, that country would now be an inferno.
The male principle is _peripheral_, extreme and excluding.
The Feminine Principle is at, and stands for, the _center_and is inclusive, not an extreme.
My response:

Okay, so a largely, patriarchial society crumbles and embraces co-operation,
tolerance and understanding, which we might call predominantly feminine virtues.


Does this mean that the death of patriarchy has led to complete submission to the feminine principle though? (my point of contention was that this does
not
necessarilly follow)
If not, then have we just seen the first step which inevitably leads there? If so, what would a South African society that has 'completely submitted to the
female principle' be like? And would this be the same as Female Supremacy?
I ask in a genuine spirit of inquisitiveness here, because I'm still trying to
explore
what FemSupremacy really means. It's much less self-explanatory than FemDom!

Jon

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 15:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Thanks for the medicine
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu wrote:

That's not necessarily the case. There is quite a bit of "market
skimming" in the industry. Many drugs pay for their R&D costs within the
first couple of years. Patented drugs lose their patents after 21(?)
years. Most corporations charge the highest price that they can expect to
maximize profits before the patents expire and generics enter the market

Friends,

As many of you know, I have spent over twenty years in Health Care, most of it in pharmaceutical-intensive areas. I agree with the above statement.
I'd like to add that drug companies also co-ordinate the development and release of new products with the expiration of the old patents. Once a generic hits the market, the major corporations suddenly unveil a "new, improved" remedy for the same clinical indications. Overnight, the medicine that they have been proclaiming as the most wonderful agent in the world becomes little better than a placebo :-).
This sort of game-playing would amuse me if I didn't see the adverse effects it has on so many Patients.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:35:53 -0700
From: Alchemy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960717163636.1c0f331e@pop.ni.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Alchemy wrote:
It is the virtual death of patriarchy and in that death lies complete
surrender, complete submission to the Female principle.

Jon Woolven replied:
Why does the end of one extreme have to lead to another? Has the ending of apartheid in South Africa led to 'complete submission
to the
black principle'? I think not.

Coyote responded:
Apartheid was the male principle, the patriarchal vision. The new South
Africa seems to be emerging as the Female Principle.

Jon Woolven responded:
Okay, so a largely, patriarchial society crumbles and embraces co-operation,
tolerance and understanding, which we might call predominantly feminine
virtues.
Does this mean that the death of patriarchy has led to complete submission to the feminine principle though? (my point of contention was that this does
not necessarilly follow)
If so, what would a South African society that has 'completely submitted to the
female principle' be like? And would this be the same as Female Supremacy? ... I'm still trying to explore what FemSupremacy really means. It's much
less self-explanatory than FemDom!

In my earlier post I said something about the death of patriarchy and the
complete surrender to feminine principle. I think I overstated the case in
that I did not mean that one principle necessarily replaces the other. Its
not an either/or situation - ever! Its a matter of a shift in emphasis - one
might say a change in the centroid of the complex (whatever *that* means

If the male principle in the form of patriarchy "dies" to gynarchy, or
feminarchy, or matriarchy, it is not obliterated by the new ruling
principle. It just means that the culture will favor the new feminine
principle as the guiding philosophy or motive for most aspects of cultural
life. One guiding principle does not obliterate the other. The metaphor of
death is speaking to a relative repositioning of the one descending while
the other is ascending.

Poetically speaking, for example, the sun "dies" to the night, but it is not
obliterated. It has merely transited to another sector and is not
*currently* the guiding principle of the local time zone. So we do things at
night in a different way than we do things during the day. We adopt a
different state of mind, and a similar thing happens when the ruling
principle shifts fromthe masculine to the feminine. The culture takes on a
new consciousness, a new ideology. That new consciousness is informed and
guided by the principles we call feminine. The feminine ascends to the place
of honor,of leadership. It becomes the ruling principle and with it comes a
general uplifting of or ascending of all things feminine, whether
ideological, spiritual, or physical.

Jon, your question "what does FemSupremacy really mean" is probably the
question that is most central to this forum. I think the answer to that
question is going to be very complex because it depends on what dimension of
the human experience you are asking the question from. Is it a sexuality
question, a moral question, a political question, a personal power question,
etc. One problem with a conversation about something as complex as
FemSupremacy is that one person may be talking from a political viewpoint
and the other is responding from a sexuality viewpoint.

I touch the earth, I touch the sky, and in between am I.
Kind of sad, scary even, when you stop to think just how much of that
"village" is at best indifferent to the welfare of the children being
raised; at worst, possessed of motives and inclinations that are directly
at cross-purposes.

Perhaps most of all, the media, with both programs and advertising that
are designed to simply encourage certain ways of thinking, in particular
consumerism : "Momma, I -need- those new basketball shoes" or "I really
need to be thinner so I'll be pretty & popular". Using the television as
an unsupervised babysitter seems not unlike delivering the kids into the
hands of hostile strangers. "Brainwash my baby if you must, just keep
her out of my hair."

How many folks have read "A Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? (I
think I spelled the first name correctly.) It's about a society where
people are all "created" in test tubes. Some of the test tubes are
allowed to develop properly, some are spoiled to produce people with
lower than average intelligence. You're placed in a job according to
the IQ grade you're assigned to before "birth," so for example people
doing incredibly menial jobs are in from the really low IQ caste. The
reason this is done so everyone will be "happy" at their jobs.

Anyway, I won't go into the whole book here. ;) However, the idea
behind the society was to have a perfect, healthy economy. So, it was
set up to be the ultimate consumer society. Their motto was "More
stitches, less riches." Meaning, don't keep your stuff as it gets
older, ditch it and get something new, or people will think you're
poor.

There was also a lot of brainwashing done by the citizens...from
childhood, they listened to behaviour modification tapes that would
ensure they'd be happy in society the way it was already set up.

I would suggest that anyone who hasn't read this book should pick it
up and give it a read. I sometimes think it has an eerie parallel to
today.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:41:14 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Worm That Turned
Message-ID:

In message <960717193910_100410.1764_BHG71-1@CompuServe.COM, Jon
Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM writes


The Worm That Turned!
It was more than a sketch, it was a running sketch that ran through the series
and was
repeated a few years ago. Men without any democratic rights, the property of
their
partners, dressing in frilly clothes to illustrate their submissive role.
Patrols of
thigh booted women to keep order.

I loved it naturally, but to call it prophetic and what is happening in the
wider world, huh?


Now we're reminded of all the grisly details, perhaps our adjectives
went OTT, but clearly it was funny and it has taken Jon to remind us
that it was a series but how did it end?

It is those patrols of thigh booted women that Robert remembers, along
with (and he does think this was prophetic) the way these two very
respectable (!) comedians wandered into scenarios that are at least the
stuff of contemporary fantasy

BUT OK, Robert is not into frilly clothes, never has been, and Fiona
never wants him to.

Fiona is now saying: was this stimulated by Mrs T coming to power and
was the female lead Diana Dors?
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:48:48 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Laura Goodwin
Message-ID: <31EC8CD0.5AEF@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Consider the sacrafice made! Your winning one man at a time!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:16:53 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Any Takers
Message-ID: <31EC9365.334@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


I suggest we create a newsletter for women (wives in particular), tone
down or mask the message a touch and gear the language towards the a
less sophisticated audience.

Any takers?

Robert Hoffer


No thanks Robert. It's just my opinion but femsuprem "light"
would definitely not interest me nor Debora. The Trojan horse, or don't get real until you lure them in, or keep the intellectual tone down, dumb
down to reach the wives is somewhat patronizing. I'm sure that's not
what you meant. We are who we are, a merry band of eclectic straight,
gay, male, female, dominant, submissive, spiritual, carnal, pagan,
Christian, philosophical, pragmatic enigmatic mental
gymnasts! Paradoxical? Sure! Isn't it grand we can at least listen to
each other. The tone here doesn't seem to be zealousness to add to the
numbers of the "congregation" so to speak. It's subject matter explored
in a deeper, more spiritual (not "church" spiritual) way in the broadest
sense.
However, if you would like to put forth posts that would reach those
people on their level I'd love to read them. You have the forum, have at
it!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 06:48:44 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: The Village (Was another (Educ. Stat)
Message-Id: <199607180448.GAA02581@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:20:34 -0700 (PDT), Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

There was also a lot of brainwashing done by the citizens...from
childhood, they listened to behaviour modification tapes that would
ensure they'd be happy in society the way it was already set up.

I would suggest that anyone who hasn't read this book should pick it
up and give it a read. I sometimes think it has an eerie parallel to
today.

As much as "they" (whoever that may be) want to indoctrinate people
into thinking that they're living in the best of worlds, and that they are
quite happy and content with their lifes, I think one only has to take a
look at society to see, that most people don't actually believe in it, but
going from that to admitting it to oneself and others, is quite a
different matter. It's like admitting that one's life so far has been more
or less a pointless waste of time. Who wants to face that? It's better to
keep telling oneself, that one is happy and content.

There was survey made in many countries around the world a while ago.
There were reports of it here in the media in Sweden. In it people were
asked, if they were happy with their lifes (financially, emotionally
etc.). Contrary to what one would perhaps have believed, most of the
respondents claimed to be happy. That included people in developing
countries living under what we consider to be primitive and poor
conditions too.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:24:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Male Self-abasement and the Blues
Message-Id: <199607180524.AAA28881@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Recently I listened to a number of male Blues players. I would say
that a common theme was self-abasement in their music.
In life, it may be that these artists have no concept of female
supremcy. I don't know.
Observing audience response, however, I thought I observed the males
tuning into the self-abasement message. There is a powerlessness expressed
in these blues.

DL

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:50:17 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Mentor
Message-ID: <31EDB479.1D97@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Since some males are in need of instruction, I can take on a few
students. Don't clutter up this newsletter. If you are in need of a
mentor, or are interested in being trained email me privately and you may
be accepted. Be extremely respectful, and only respond if you are
willing to render complete obedience as I train you to be the submissive
you've always wanted to be. I will contact you.

Mistress Debora

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 21:44:45 -0400
From: Inferiorm@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Male Self-abasement and the Blues
Message-ID: <960718214443_364332708@emout12.mail.aol.com

That"s why they call it the blues.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 19:13:31 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: A Farewell
Message-Id: <199607191807.UAA25118@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My Friends,

everything has its time. Being on a list has its time, and unsubscribing
has its time. This is a convenient time, because I am going on a
backpacking trip to Lapland. Rest assured that I have found this time
both educative and entertaining, and I am happy that I, a high-
testosterone male (as I to my amusement found myself described
recently) have been tolerated here. BTW, high-adrenaline is maybe
a more adequate description ...

Farewell, ye Ladies, to quote the old shanty. And gentlemen too.

Best regards,

Timberwolf


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:48:12 -0400
From: ironbrdg@glen-net.ca (Ironbridge Consultants Inc.)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-Id: <199607191748.NAA12596@sparc1.glen-net.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Please delist this location. Thanks

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:39:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A Farewell
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Timberwolf,

Goodbye and good luck. You and your wisdom will be sorely
missed, but perhaps someday you will choose to return.
Enjoy your visit in LapLand.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: timberwolf@bahnhof.se (Lars)
Subject: Re: A Farewell
Message-Id: <199607200940.CAA28428@netcom21.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1135

Timberwolf wrote:

My Friends,

everything has its time. Being on a list has its time, and unsubscribing
has its time.

Well, friend, some of may think of your leaving, much as we regret it, as
more like an open-ended sabbatical, but one that we will all take sooner
or later. Think of yourself as an alumnus of a very special seminar.

Please keep our addresses, come back for a 'guest appearance' when you
can, look for mail from many of us, and thank you for asking the tough
questions. :)

As the Irish say, Wind ever at your back, TW, in Lapland or wherever you go.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

There is always something ;; We were born to make manifest
to cherish. ;; the glory of God that is within us.
- Timberwolf ;; - Nelson Mandela

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #153
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:
Re: A Farewell
Leaving the list
Re: Timberwolf
Male Submission
[Fwd: Male Submission]
Re: Leaving the list
S/he
UNSUBRCRIBE
hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Re: hello
Women and physical type
hello
Re: hello
Re: hello

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 96 13:30:23 EDT
From: Steve Collins <74363.267@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: A Farewell
Message-ID: <960720173022_74363.267_HHG60-1@CompuServe.COM

Could you take me off this list.

Thanks

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:07:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Leaving the list
Message-Id: <199607201807.LAA01998@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 567

Since folks are, once again, posting asking to be removed from the
list, here's the instructions. I only remove people by hand if
they're having a technical problem removing themselves.

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

unsubscribe

and nothing in the body.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:31:57 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Timberwolf
Message-ID: <31F01AED.66DE@crosslink.net
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <31F01A70.4B6B@crosslink.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:29:52 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
Reply-To: thughes@crosslink.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Timberwolf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It's been great to read your posts and dialogue with you. May that higher
power you call your friend whatever you conceive it to be be with you
always. We wish you only the best in life! If you ever need help just
look up and it will come.

Adios my friend,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:52:25 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Male Submission
Message-ID: <31F01FB9.22A2@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Women are finally getting through to us. Lately I feel like the luckiest man in the
world. Living a life of total commitment and dedication to one woman is so blissful I'm
in heaven. It's so different from the last decades of struggle. The more I learn the
more I am in awe of women and their abilities.
Humility is another trait that is amazing to us testocerone types. The Heavenly
creature I am married too hardly realizes why everyone circles around her like bees to a
flower. Male and female want to look and listen to her wisdom and are mysteriously
drawn to her. They don't even realize how mesmerized they are. It's awesome to see her
totally control a room full of people. Venus, Diana reincarnated, a vision of all that
is lovely, powerful, kind and totally controlling. The ultimate female paradox.
I can't understand the depths of her soul, but God does and touches mankind through her
words and actions. I've never felt such utter contentment and peace as I have the last
year, as I've lived to serve my superior female partner, literally willing to do
anything she commands. She and all women are worthy of obedience and service because
they can emanate light in so many facets of the spectrum. Twenty levels of
communication to our one.
I don't try to keep up anymore. I just obey. Give in, stop arguing, and say whatever
you want I will do. Even when angry and hostile, when I pronounce submission, my
attitude softens and I bow before her in complete submission. The strangest thing is,
before I'd feel hurt and angry, now I feel only Love and a sweet contentment knowing I'm
doing the right thing. A peace. She ALWAYS treats me with respect. It's about time I
learned to do the same.

with a silly, blissful smile and my
face, Courtesy of Debora,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:54:00 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: [Fwd: Male Submission]
Message-ID: <31F02018.6F52@crosslink.net
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <31F01FB9.22A2@crosslink.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:52:25 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
Reply-To: thughes@crosslink.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Male Submission
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Women are finally getting through to us. Lately I feel like the luckiest man in the
world. Living a life of total commitment and dedication to one woman is so blissful I'm
in heaven. It's so different from the last decades of struggle. The more I learn the
more I am in awe of women and their abilities.
Humility is another trait that is amazing to us testocerone types. The Heavenly
creature I am married too hardly realizes why everyone circles around her like bees to a
flower. Male and female want to look and listen to her wisdom and are mysteriously
drawn to her. They don't even realize how mesmerized they are. It's awesome to see her
totally control a room full of people. Venus, Diana reincarnated, a vision of all that
is lovely, powerful, kind and totally controlling. The ultimate female paradox.
I can't understand the depths of her soul, but God does and touches mankind through her
words and actions. I've never felt such utter contentment and peace as I have the last
year, as I've lived to serve my superior female partner, literally willing to do
anything she commands. She and all women are worthy of obedience and service because
they can emanate light in so many facets of the spectrum. Twenty levels of
communication to our one.
I don't try to keep up anymore. I just obey. Give in, stop arguing, and say whatever
you want I will do. Even when angry and hostile, when I pronounce submission, my
attitude softens and I bow before her in complete submission. The strangest thing is,
before I'd feel hurt and angry, now I feel only Love and a sweet contentment knowing I'm
doing the right thing. A peace. She ALWAYS treats me with respect. It's about time I
learned to do the same.

with a silly, blissful smile and my
face, Courtesy of Debora,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jul 96 16:53:50 EDT
From: Steve Collins <74363.267@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Leaving the list
Message-ID: <960720205350_74363.267_HHG60-1@CompuServe.COM

Thanks

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:22:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: S/he
Message-Id: <199607212322.TAA26972@norway.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A real quick thought:

Language is important in both reflecting and structuring how we see the
world; and, how we see the world is very important in how we act in the world.
(This is hardly an original thought, but it's worth saying over and over
again, since people seem to forget it very quickly.

S/he

The use of *S/he* in place of the conventional *he* is diabolical in two ways:

1-Visually the Feminine portion of the compound is placed ahead of the male
part; reversing conventional gender ordering. It is acceptable to Female
supremacist and non Female supremacist readers since it appears to be a
natural way to combine the two words *She* and *he*.

2-When people read they generally subvocalize (short term memory is
accoustic in nature so that words whether spoken or seen get converted to
sound and held there temporarily while the sounds are analyzed to generate
meaning.) The neat thing about *S/he* is that, since */* has no
pronounciation, when *S/he* is converted to sound it comes out *She*; it is
effectively as though one replaced all the *he* references with *She*
references, thereby making the Female gender reference the generic reference
for humans, and the male gender reference the *marked* (special) case
reference for particular humans that are male.

The use of *S/he* is a role reversal subtly that can be perpetrated on non
Female supremacist folks without them being any the wiser ... nor being able
to defend themselves, either, since the processes involved operate below the
level of consciousness.

By the way if you doubt that this sort of thing has much importance, try
reading something with all the *he*s converted to *She*'s, and the gender
order reversed. The awkward or funny feeling you may get is telling you it
does make a difference. (A male with erotic leanings toward Female power can
actually experience arousal from reading where language gender conventions
have been reversed).

That's all, just a quicky.
zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:39:05 -0400
From: JBHOLD@aol.com
To: FEMSUPREMACY@renaissoft.com
Subject: UNSUBRCRIBE
Message-ID: <960721193904_161100512@emout18.mail.aol.com

UNSUBRCRIBE

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 22:05:57 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <31F30C35.2047@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

boy after a very prolific week of verbiage here...we now have
silence...or is something wrong.
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Patricia,

I've been on the list for over a year, and the pattern seems to
be either very still or very busy. Lately we've just been very still, so
I don't think anything is wrong.
Want some action? Just begin a controversial topic of your own,
and watch the messages fly!

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:09:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id: <199607220309.UAA01018@netcom14.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1045


boy after a very prolific week of verbiage here...we now have
silence...or is something wrong.
Patricia

In my case

1. A lot of writing to catch up on, online & off
2. Computer Hell (Part II) (with 1., above)
3. Dog Days (known locally as the 'Monsoon,' which can,
and here does, mean a season of wet offshore wind
not necessarily accompanied by rain: Why waste
water when humid, hot dust is available? ;d )
4. Dog Nights (See 3., above, but dark and with no morning low.)
5. Olympics

but a hug anyway, and a promise to get get back soon, when either 1 or 2
are resolved: 2 especially would be really keen.

Thanks for the bed check ;p and for saying 'boy,' a term too much in
disuse these days (in our circles, at least). :)

Peace to all :)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 02:45:42 -0700
From: Ray Jones
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id: <199607220945.CAA25924@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:21 PM 7/21/96 -0700, you wrote:

Patricia,

I've been on the list for over a year, and the pattern seems to be either
very still or very busy. Lately we've just been very still, so I don't
think anything is wrong.
Want some action? Just begin a controversial topic of your own,
and watch the messages fly!

Barry

Patricia and Barry, I've only been on this list for a couple of days so I
can't attest to the frequency of this list, but I've been on "the net" for
many, many years as well as on Fidonet. It is the same with all Internet
newsgroups, Fidonet echoes, mailing lists and so on. They all operate in
"spurts" though the SPAMMER's seem to keep the newsgroups flowing these days.


--
Regards,

Ray Jones
****************************************************************************
********
Coming to New Orleans? Contact "Big Ray" the Buggy Driver
Licensed Tour Guide

Historical tours through the romantic French Quarter in New Orleans, LA
Ride in a mule-drawn "vis-a-vis" carriage while enjoying the surroundings-
and being informed about the history, points of interest and other info

Cellular Phone - 884-9572 Digital Beeper 504-547-8032
Thu. thru Mon. 5 p.m. to midnight (appx.)


ray.jones@mail.sstar.com OR ray.jones@nopc.org

"Big Ray"'s home page http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 07:19:49 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID:

In message <31F30C35.2047@tiac.net, Noble
boy after a very prolific week of verbiage here...we now have
silence...or is something wrong.
Patricia

and there we were worried that something had gone wrong with our
provider and its messages of mail delays,
nonetheless we have'nt got any bright ideas just now,
we waiting for Genderquake on tommorrows TV (see earlier posts).

--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 07:30:14 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Isn't funny how something appears in your life, and suddenly you have
something you always look forward to? I will be away from my computer for
two weeks very soon and will miss all of the postings here ... even the
ones that flame me.
Peter


In message <31F30C35.2047@tiac.net, Noble
boy after a very prolific week of verbiage here...we now have
silence...or is something wrong.
Patricia

and there we were worried that something had gone wrong with our
provider and its messages of mail delays,
nonetheless we have'nt got any bright ideas just now,
we waiting for Genderquake on tommorrows TV (see earlier posts).

--
fiona and robert forsythe



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:15:51 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Could someone explain to me how bodybuilding amazon women are related to
femdom and femsupremacy?also,could some of these women write what it is
that motivates them to bodybuilding, to become femdoms etc.femsupremacy
DOES seem awfully quiet.
p.s any female bodybuilders, femdoms in australia subscribe to this list?
a very lonely femsupremist.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:38:54 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID: <31F3A08D.7F6B@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

while I am not a body builder, I would say it has to do with choice.
Women can be or do whoever they can be and whatever they can do for
their own self esteem and their own idea of what makes them "FEEL" good.
We are no longer tied to the masculine stereotype of what female beauty
is. If being strong makes us feel beautiful then we are beautiful to
ourselves and thats where beauty means something.
Patricia

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

Could someone explain to me how bodybuilding amazon women are related to
femdom and femsupremacy?also,could some of these women write what it is
that motivates them to bodybuilding, to become femdoms etc.femsupremacy
DOES seem awfully quiet.
p.s any female bodybuilders, femdoms in australia subscribe to this list?
a very lonely femsupremist.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:53:53 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

in regards to Patricia's letter, absolutely correct and very well put. But
what happens when men think for example that women bodybuilders (the
steroid ones) are not beautiful?Does a woman have to be physically strong
in order to feel strong?Obviously, the answer depends on the
individual.personally I feel the more women break free of traditional ideas
about their role in society(for example-womens bodybuilding) the
better.It's only by being more assertive that women can do something for
their equality=yet where are all the assertive women?Sorry,if I'm not
making a lot of sense,I get the feeling no-one else is here!Matt.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:10:26 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID: <31F3A7F2.15EB@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

But
what happens when men think for example that women bodybuilders (the
steroid ones) are not beautiful?

I don't think we really give a frogs butt (do frogs have butts) whether
men think we are beautiful. If a man can't see the beauty of a
woman..deciding for herself what makes her happy..I don't really want to
spend one nanosecond worrying about him or what he's thinking.
and I hope no one is using steroids...stupidity is not beautiful.


Does a woman have to be physically strong
in order to feel strong?

we are not a generic lot. Women need to define for themselves who they
are and what makes them feel beautiful. For me it is feeling
competent..learning a new skill and getting to the point that I do it as
well as it can be done...every woman is different..and we have to stop
trying to put everyone into little slots.

Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607221406.HAA23299@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3290

Matt wrote

in regards to Patricia's letter, absolutely correct and very well put. But
what happens when men think for example that women bodybuilders (the
steroid ones) are not beautiful?Does a woman have to be physically strong
in order to feel strong?Obviously, the answer depends on the
individual.personally I feel the more women break free of traditional ideas
about their role in society(for example-womens bodybuilding) the
better.It's only by being more assertive that women can do something for
their equality=yet where are all the assertive women?Sorry,if I'm not
making a lot of sense,I get the feeling no-one else is here!Matt.

I have a real problem with this whole discussion whenever
it comes up: there's a very sinister implication that the
Matriarchal / Female Supremacist Woman, the 'new' Woman, must
conform to this Xena / Gabrielle Reece / 'Uebergirl' physical
type with the the general demeanor, poise and accomplishments of
a morph of Esther Dyson, Barbara Jordan, Hildegard of Bingen, Thalia
Assuras and Captain Janeway. In our dreams! The =real= FS Women
in my happy experience are those claim their own identity and see
in themselves the source and meaning of life. These are the Eves
who, when confronted with the apple and serpent myth, wink slyly
and say 'Damn straight!'

They come in all shapes and sizes and backgrounds and ages and
most of them have more than 1% bodyfat, and one thing they for damn
sure aren't are projections of men's fantasies, about which most
of them are totally indifferent or only as a curiosity. This why
in my orbit at least they make such good friends and leaders: they
give me space to be human.

The heavy hitters are often the Crones, anyway, but even that's
a generalization. Their knowledge is ancient and cellular and
now emerging again, and it's a knowledge that I for one am only
dimly aware of and will never fully understand, and don't really
want to. I may hunt and make those beautiful paintings on the cave
wall, but damned if I know what they're up to out there in that
oak grove. But it certainly holds my particular band together,
whatever it is they do
Matriarchy is perhaps best illustrated by the Kali / Shiva
dance, which is a wonderful story that most men fantasize about
one way or another and can thereby get behind. But they should
also take note that it's =not= a Femdom 'scene.' In the FS encounter,
there's only one 'player,' and it isn't the male or male energy.
Shiva's erection is powered by Kali's passion, not his own. ;d

The premise here (in an FS dialog) might be that Women are who
they say they are. Just that.

Good question, Matt, well worth asking. It should get some good
responses, and on alt.sex.femdom could get very different answers,
which is cool, too.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:20:18 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: hello
Message-ID:

FEboy after a very prolific week of verbiage here...we now have
FEsilence...or is something wrong.
FEPatricia

Sigh--I have been distracted...
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:26:26 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID:

FECould someone explain to me how bodybuilding amazon women are related to
FEfemdom and femsupremacy?also,could some of these women write what it is
FEthat motivates them to bodybuilding, to become femdoms etc.femsupremacy
FEDOES seem awfully quiet.

I am a NEW bodybuilder, on my way to the gym as i type.
It is a Zen experience for me--a total meditation and
journey to "thusness." The results that it has on
my body is phenomenal--I am grateful for the peace it
leaves me with.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:28:50 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID:

FEin regards to Patricia's letter, absolutely correct and very well put. But
FEwhat happens when men think for example that women bodybuilders (the
FEsteroid ones) are not beautiful?Does a woman have to be physically strong

Oh, I am MUCH more beautiful than when I was a plumpo!
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #154
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 155

Today's Topics:
Bodybuilding, beauty, and choice
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Women and physical type
Help and Femuscle
Re: hello
Re: The Personal and the Collective
Women becoming woMEN.
Re: Thanks for the memories
Physical exercise.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 07:47:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Bodybuilding, beauty, and choice
Message-Id: <199607221447.HAA28745@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Matt wrote:
in regards to Patricia's letter, absolutely correct and very well put. But
what happens when men think for example that women bodybuilders (the
steroid ones) are not beautiful?

What happens when men think that extremely thin women aren't beautiful, or
when women don't consider barrel-bodied men with huge muscles to be the
epitome of attractiveness? If a man doesn't find a woman who's bulked up
her muscle mass via weightlifting and steroids to be attractive, it isn't
the end of the world - that particular man isn't likely to be chasing after
that particular type of woman. No biggie - it's a matter of personal choice.

It's when people start decreeing that a particular look is desirable, and
insisting that individuals have to have that look to be desirable, that
there's something wrong. (At present, there is something wrong - the media
and advertisers push a very limitted range of appearances as being required
for popularity. Same thing down through the centuries - most cultures have
done the same thing, formed their own widely accepted standards of beauty
for women, and oftentimes for men as well. It's just that today so many
people are hooked on TV, glamour magazines, etc...)

Women and men should both be free to pursue whatever kind of physique,
style, and appearance that they're comfortable and happy with. Likewise,
members of both sexes are, and should, be free to form their own notions
of what appeals to them, regardless of what traits it is that appeals.
What's -wrong- is when they start wounding others by saying things like,
"Sheesh, you're not attractive at all! You'd don't have huge muscles/
long hair/slender thighs", especially when it's said often enough, and
to young enough people where it hurts their self esteem and warps their
self image. (For instance, all the young women who insist on thinking of
themselves as hideously overweight, regardless of the facts. Society,
male and female, made them think they -had- to be slender, to the point
where people who are too skinny for good health starve themselves to death
because they still think they're heavy.)


personally I feel the more women break free of traditional ideas
about their role in society(for example-womens bodybuilding) the
better.It's only by being more assertive that women can do something
for their equality=yet where are all the assertive women?

It almost sounds like you're implying that women need to be body builders
in order to be assertive, though I'm sure you're not meaning to. Keep in
mind that there's many forms of assertiveness, some out and out confron-
tational, some more quiet and subtle. Where are the assertive women?

There's a number of them right here on this mailing list; and no doubt
there's more all around you, they just don't match your preconceptions of
what an assertive woman should be.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:36:32 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607221936.MAA18694@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com

I have to take issue with what Coyote Sings says about physical type.
Not that I disagreed with his points, which made sense, but because he
seems to have confused those who FANTASIZE about the Xena/Gabby
Reece/Ubergirl type with those who PRESCRIBE it to other women as
something that "had better" be emulated.

First, I for one have never done this. It would be the heighth of
folly for me to tell a woman of "average" build (say, 5'4" and 140
lbs.) that she should try somehow to attain the Amazonian proportions
of a Gabrielle Reece, because that would be impossible. I know of no
drug or exercise regimen on the market that can do that!! (If there
were, it would still have to be up to each woman whether or not to use
it -- I for one would hope most WOULD!!)

No, we who merely fantasize about Gabby Reece and Xena do not harbor
the illusion that this physical type can be made ubiquitous anytime
soon. Nor is anyone (to my knowledge) saying that to be a supporter
of Female Supremacy, a woman must be built like an Amazon. As I said,
that would be folly.

HOWEVER, I humbly beg Coyote Sings to respect my right to fantasize as
I do here on this mailing list and on several newsgroups such as AWS.
What I do, when I write stories or diatribes about this kind of woman,
is both fantasizing, and (hopefully) expanding our thinking about what
a woman can be and is "supposed" to be. Example: In the last
century and for millenia before that, women were largely barred from
playing sports, except perhaps for a few dainty badminton games. Now,
with role models like Gabrielle Reece, young women can feel "right"
about emulating women who are physically powerful and openly display a
commanding physical presence. If that isn't an appropriate ideal for
the "Female Supremacy" movement, then I don't know what is!

For instance, in days of yore, women who were built "big" -- say, 6' or
taller -- were encouraged to stoop, so as to hide their size and appear
less intimidating -- especially to men. Thankfully, this has changed
for the better, and the movement toward greater female participation in
sports -- especially at the high school level, and on through college
-- has been instrumental in reversing this. Recently I read a
newspaper article about a Japanese-American female high school
basketball star, who at 6' tall, had surpassed both parents in height.
Her dad applauded the fact that she didn't slouch, noting that "six
foot girls are a lot more common today, and they don't slouch anymore".
I think this is great!

I think that one of the ultimate, longer-term goals of the "Female
Supremacist" movement should be to destroy the old stereotypes about
women's physical weakness, and -- this is important -- through any
means necessary, eliminate whatever remnants of physical weakness there
may be in the female sex. If this means genetic engineering -- in the
long term -- then, why not? As a society we rue gender harrassment,
date rape, and male-on-female domestic violence (some poor dweeb will
certainly bring up female-on-male domestic violence, just to set me
straight -- don't distract me with that!!) Well, what better way of
ending this biologically-based pattern of unfairness towards the female
sex than to actually CHANGE WOMEN? Why shouldn't we try to make the
next generation of women, or future generations of women at some point
in the future -- into Amazon women, capable of defending themselves
against men? This would be a very radical, but in my opinion, a
laudable goal. If you are a true Female Supremacist, you must at
least THINK ABOUT IT!!

Tony

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 15:48:19 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-ID: <31F40533.4665@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

then I guess after we have given them surgery, drugs, genetic
engineering or whatever else to reach this MALE idea of strength...and
these fine "amazon babes" start feeling the affect of gravity and
menopause..I guess we should give them more surgery, drugs etc and if
they can't jump over physical fences after that...what...eliminate them.
this is still male hogwash. some women may want to be sports
champs..thats wonderful. some may want to stay home and cook and play
with the kids..thats great...some may want to read and write opera,
poetry and plays....this male definition of strength as physical
only..is a bunch of huey...and this post-menopausal crone, witch,
spinster....ain't buying it.
Patricia


Tony wrote:

I have to take issue with what Coyote Sings says about physical type.
Not that I disagreed with his points, which made sense, but because he
seems to have confused those who FANTASIZE about the Xena/Gabby
Reece/Ubergirl type with those who PRESCRIBE it to other women as
something that "had better" be emulated.

First, I for one have never done this. It would be the heighth of
folly for me to tell a woman of "average" build (say, 5'4" and 140
lbs.) that she should try somehow to attain the Amazonian proportions
of a Gabrielle Reece, because that would be impossible. I know of no
drug or exercise regimen on the market that can do that!! (If there
were, it would still have to be up to each woman whether or not to use
it -- I for one would hope most WOULD!!)

No, we who merely fantasize about Gabby Reece and Xena do not harbor
the illusion that this physical type can be made ubiquitous anytime
soon. Nor is anyone (to my knowledge) saying that to be a supporter
of Female Supremacy, a woman must be built like an Amazon. As I said,
that would be folly.

HOWEVER, I humbly beg Coyote Sings to respect my right to fantasize as
I do here on this mailing list and on several newsgroups such as AWS.
What I do, when I write stories or diatribes about this kind of woman,
is both fantasizing, and (hopefully) expanding our thinking about what
a woman can be and is "supposed" to be. Example: In the last
century and for millenia before that, women were largely barred from
playing sports, except perhaps for a few dainty badminton games. Now,
with role models like Gabrielle Reece, young women can feel "right"
about emulating women who are physically powerful and openly display a
commanding physical presence. If that isn't an appropriate ideal for
the "Female Supremacy" movement, then I don't know what is!

For instance, in days of yore, women who were built "big" -- say, 6' or
taller -- were encouraged to stoop, so as to hide their size and appear
less intimidating -- especially to men. Thankfully, this has changed
for the better, and the movement toward greater female participation in
sports -- especially at the high school level, and on through college
-- has been instrumental in reversing this. Recently I read a
newspaper article about a Japanese-American female high school
basketball star, who at 6' tall, had surpassed both parents in height.
Her dad applauded the fact that she didn't slouch, noting that "six
foot girls are a lot more common today, and they don't slouch anymore".
I think this is great!

I think that one of the ultimate, longer-term goals of the "Female
Supremacist" movement should be to destroy the old stereotypes about
women's physical weakness, and -- this is important -- through any
means necessary, eliminate whatever remnants of physical weakness there
may be in the female sex. If this means genetic engineering -- in the
long term -- then, why not? As a society we rue gender harrassment,
date rape, and male-on-female domestic violence (some poor dweeb will
certainly bring up female-on-male domestic violence, just to set me
straight -- don't distract me with that!!) Well, what better way of
ending this biologically-based pattern of unfairness towards the female
sex than to actually CHANGE WOMEN? Why shouldn't we try to make the
next generation of women, or future generations of women at some point
in the future -- into Amazon women, capable of defending themselves
against men? This would be a very radical, but in my opinion, a
laudable goal. If you are a true Female Supremacist, you must at
least THINK ABOUT IT!!

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 96 15:56:21 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Help and Femuscle
Message-ID: <960722195621_101342.2030_GHW145-1@CompuServe.COM

I think we may not have to worry too much about physical differences between
male and female in the not too distant future. I have just read an article in a
UK national paper that would satisfy Patricia (I think She will LOVE this
article) and her worry about lack of postings, and goes some way in dealing with
female the physiques discussion.

Daily Mail July 22nd - reported by Jane Gordon - based on research by Dr Robert
McHenry, of the Oxford Psychologists Press.

Quote : Todays young women are not only physically more masculine - taller and
wider - they are also becoming more like men in personality too. Young women
are now more aggressive, more arrogant - and more dishonest. .. It also
suggests that they are beginning to think like men. . This mental and
physical androgyny is endangering the most powerful human instinct, the urge to
procreate.

Well there we are then ! If things go on as they are, should we be thinking of
feMALE Supremacy ?? .. heavens forbid! The saving grace is that - quote: Mature
women are finally coming to realise that the attraction between men and women
lies in our difference - - I bet that comes as a bit of a shock to the Ladies in
our group :-)

Watch out for - Nancy Fridays new book - The Power Of Beauty.

It all goes to prove that we here in our private cocktail party are years ahead
of the rest of the world !!

Dennis (t.o.m)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:17:29 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

There is an old boxing type in my community who has started a program where
he takes women who have been physically abused and gives them the same
training that he would give a professional boxer. And I'm talking about the
stereotypical training with punching bags that one sees in the old boxing
movies, or such as what "Rocky" went through.
I asked him if it was for self-defence and he replied, no, it was to build
self-esteem. From his many years as a trainer, he saw that the major
benefit of boxing was that he could take a boy from "the wrong side of the
tracks," who had low self-esteem, and build him into a confident man.
It was for this reason that he wanted to train these women to become more
self-confident.

Peter


while I am not a body builder, I would say it has to do with choice.
Women can be or do whoever they can be and whatever they can do for
their own self esteem and their own idea of what makes them "FEEL" good.
We are no longer tied to the masculine stereotype of what female beauty
is. If being strong makes us feel beautiful then we are beautiful to
ourselves and thats where beauty means something.
Patricia

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

Could someone explain to me how bodybuilding amazon women are related to
femdom and femsupremacy?also,could some of these women write what it is
that motivates them to bodybuilding, to become femdoms etc.femsupremacy
DOES seem awfully quiet.
p.s any female bodybuilders, femdoms in australia subscribe to this list?
a very lonely femsupremist.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 13:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Personal and the Collective
Message-Id: <199607222027.NAA00918@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 4675

My parents were visiting. Now that they're gone, I can take some time
to answer some of these posts that have been piling up in my mailbox!

Alchemy wrote:

[some deleted for brevity]

I think it would be intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer,
for example, that on a personal level not *all* women will want to partner
with a submissive man, nor would all men want to have a dominant woman in
their life. (I use the terms "dominant" and "submissive" advisedly, as they
are highly charged terms. Understand it to indicate "out front" and "behind
the scenes"). On the other hand, not all men are "dominant", nor are all
women "submissive." Each man and each woman must come to terms with their
own personal character and find a life partner who will complement that
character.

Thank you for acknowledging this. I don't see how we can make a
better world if we try to shove people into what _we_ think their
roles should be. Telling all women they have to be dominant and all
men they have to be submissive is just another way of making people
who don't naturally fit into those roles miserable. However, teaching
a basic respect for people of all persuasions is a good start. In the
US and Canada, there's a basic lip service to teaching this kind of
thing, but there are too many examples of bigots, sexists, etc. in
most areas of life for kids to learn from, including their own
parents.

On a collective level, we, as a nation, as a people, as a species, must come
to terms with our cultural character and what that means regarding our
relationship to Mother Earth. We simply must wake up to the fact that we
cannot go on raping and pillaging the environment. To do so is to live
entirely in a fantasy of failed masculine principle. It is simply
inappropriate, and even a modicom of conscious awareness will affirm it
intuitively.

I saw a special on what's being done with recycling now. It's
incredible! There is a woman owned/conceived company that recycles
disposable diapers. Apparantly, the wood pulp used for the filling is
a better grade than you get directly from a tree. There are a lot of
other creative recycling solutions going on, such as business who
before couldn't afford or "bother" with recycling banding together and
having a group recycling area. As the report pointed out, the more
you recycle, the less you pay for having your trash picked up (as a
business), so it evens out financially (I think you have to pay for
the recycling companies to pick up as a business).

So, folks, check out the recycling options in your area. ;) It's
amazing what's being reused today.

How do we turn the tide? If we consider that the collective is, in fact, an
aggregation of the personal then we can see that changing individual,
personal behavior will result, utlimately, in a corresponding change in the
collective behavior -- call it the "trickle up" theory. My thought is that
by opening our individual, personal consciousness in regard to our
feminine/masculine self identity, by examining and coming to terms with our
personal sexual identity we can effect, over time, a corresponding coming to
terms with, or increase in consciousness of our feminine/masculine
principles on a collective level.

Really, it's simple, if folks would take the time to do it. Just
stand up for what you believe in. If some guy near you is bashing
women, express your disagreement. No need to have a fight over it,
but one reason so many guys bash women is because they feel it's what
"guys do." Just seems that we let so many comments just go on by,
letting people feel we agree with their stances on things, which just
reinforces in their minds that they can't be wrong if so many people
agree.

The other way to make a difference is simply by example. Live what
you believe. If you believe in helping the earth...recycle, plant a
tree, don't litter (even pick litter up when you see it). If you
believe in helping women (or people in general) have a better life,
don't give into the peer pressure of making other folks miserable. Or
just general verbal group bashing as I said before. Maybe if enough
people lived like this, the jerks would start to feel like they were
actually in the minority instead of feeling like they owned the
world.

Hopefully that didn't sound too much like a soapbox. ;)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 22:37:21 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Women becoming woMEN.
Message-Id: <199607222036.WAA26414@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 22 Jul 96 15:56:21 EDT, OhEadhra wrote:

Daily Mail July 22nd - reported by Jane Gordon - based on research by Dr Robert
McHenry, of the Oxford Psychologists Press.

Quote : Todays young women are not only physically more masculine - taller and
wider - they are also becoming more like men in personality too. Young women
are now more aggressive, more arrogant - and more dishonest. .. It also
suggests that they are beginning to think like men. . This mental and
physical androgyny is endangering the most powerful human instinct, the urge to
procreate.

This was reported about a year ago in a Swedish newspaper. In addition
to adopting the less admirable male practices and behaviors mentioned
above, it was also said, that women's language is becoming more vulgar,
and that they are also abusing drugs to a larger extent than before. I.e.
drug abuse among women is catching up with the levels of drug abuse among
men.

If women become men (except for physical differences), what's the point
in female supremacy?

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 13:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id: <199607222036.NAA00933@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1496

Chase Vogelsberg wrote:

First, I'd like to know where the notion that only the least intelligent
males are prone to subjugation of the opposite sex (or anyone else) comes
from. True, the brutes aren't likely to get into rational discourse on
gender politics - many of them are far more accustomed to simply knocking
someone around until they get their way. But so do a lot of intelligent
types. Why? Because it works. But the intelligent ones are also more
able to quote religious texts, philosophers, and social dogma to support
their assertions that a woman should be quiet, meek, and not ever seen to
disagree with her husband.

I have to agree. There are plenty of very "smart" men who think that
women should "know their place." Just look at the number of big
companies with the woman's glass ceiling...no women in upper
management. Look at the male teachers who tell girls they're not fit
to study math and/or science. I can't remember which country it was,
but one country has a woman track star who has a great shot at winning
an Olympic medal...but, she's denounced by many big leader types (men)
for being in sports at all. I hope she wins a gold medal in her
event. :)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 22:50:13 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Physical exercise.
Message-Id: <199607222049.WAA29205@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:26:26 -0500, sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

I am a NEW bodybuilder, on my way to the gym as i type.

You're typing this from your laptop connected to your cellular phone
then? ;)

It is a Zen experience for me--a total meditation and
journey to "thusness." The results that it has on
my body is phenomenal--I am grateful for the peace it
leaves me with.

I can willingly admit that I find the exercise itself excruciatingly
boring, but the results on both a mental and physical level are worth the
sacrifice. I can't understand those who claim that they find it
stimulating to move weights up and down and back and forth though.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:
Re: The Personal and the Collective
Re: hello
Re: The Personal and the Collective
Re: Women and physical type
Re: hello
Re: Women and physical type
Re: The Personal and the Collective
Re: Thanks for the memories
Re: hello
Women athletes from fundamentalist moslem countries.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:51:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Personal and the Collective
Message-Id: <199607222051.QAA08727@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:27 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Dee-Ann wrote:

I saw a special on what's being done with recycling now. It's
incredible! There is a woman owned/conceived company that recycles
disposable diapers. Apparantly, the wood pulp used for the filling is
a better grade than you get directly from a tree. There are a lot of
other creative recycling solutions going on, such as business who
before couldn't afford or "bother" with recycling banding together and
having a group recycling area. As the report pointed out, the more
you recycle, the less you pay for having your trash picked up (as a
business), so it evens out financially (I think you have to pay for
the recycling companies to pick up as a business).

So, folks, check out the recycling options in your area. ;) It's
amazing what's being reused today.

We've been recycling here in our county in New York for almost ten years
now. All types of paper, metal, and plastic are recycled. We just put out
a bin of the stuff alongside the real garbage and the county truck comes by
and picks it up.

It's too bad it hasn't paid off financially, at least not for me. The
garbage service just keeps raising their prices (it's a fixed fee per
month), and of course they are only too happy to pass on increases in the
landfill fee. Oh well, who said life was fair? ;)

Really, it's simple, if folks would take the time to do it. Just
stand up for what you believe in. If some guy near you is bashing
women, express your disagreement. No need to have a fight over it,
but one reason so many guys bash women is because they feel it's what
"guys do." Just seems that we let so many comments just go on by,
letting people feel we agree with their stances on things, which just
reinforces in their minds that they can't be wrong if so many people
agree.

The other way to make a difference is simply by example. Live what
you believe. If you believe in helping the earth...recycle, plant a
tree, don't litter (even pick litter up when you see it). If you
believe in helping women (or people in general) have a better life,
don't give into the peer pressure of making other folks miserable. Or
just general verbal group bashing as I said before. Maybe if enough
people lived like this, the jerks would start to feel like they were
actually in the minority instead of feeling like they owned the
world.

Good thoughts Dee-Ann. I'm not always successful, but I try to do both in
my small part of the universe.


Regards, Paul (aka maidpaula)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:37:36 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-ID: <31F41ED0.6C98@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

great story peter..thanks for sharing
sounds like something I would like to do...
have punching bag and gloves and just tear into it..without worrying
about hurting someone.
Patricia


peter wrote:

There is an old boxing type in my community who has started a program where
he takes women who have been physically abused and gives them the same
training that he would give a professional boxer. And I'm talking about the
stereotypical training with punching bags that one sees in the old boxing
movies, or such as what "Rocky" went through.
I asked him if it was for self-defence and he replied, no, it was to build
self-esteem. From his many years as a trainer, he saw that the major
benefit of boxing was that he could take a boy from "the wrong side of the
tracks," who had low self-esteem, and build him into a confident man.
It was for this reason that he wanted to train these women to become more
self-confident.

Peter


while I am not a body builder, I would say it has to do with choice.
Women can be or do whoever they can be and whatever they can do for
their own self esteem and their own idea of what makes them "FEEL" good.
We are no longer tied to the masculine stereotype of what female beauty
is. If being strong makes us feel beautiful then we are beautiful to
ourselves and thats where beauty means something.
Patricia

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

Could someone explain to me how bodybuilding amazon women are related to
femdom and femsupremacy?also,could some of these women write what it is
that motivates them to bodybuilding, to become femdoms etc.femsupremacy
DOES seem awfully quiet.
p.s any female bodybuilders, femdoms in australia subscribe to this list?
a very lonely femsupremist.

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For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:48:27 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Personal and the Collective
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960722134827.00693c74@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dee-Ann wrote:
The other way to make a difference is simply by example. Live what
you believe. If you believe in helping the earth...recycle, plant a
tree, don't litter (even pick litter up when you see it). If you
believe in helping women (or people in general) have a better life,
don't give into the peer pressure of making other folks miserable. Or
just general verbal group bashing as I said before. Maybe if enough
people lived like this, the jerks would start to feel like they were
actually in the minority instead of feeling like they owned the
world.

Well said, hear hear! That's another way that the "appreciate diversity"
cry has been perversely misused: as a defense of intolerable people! Being
an asshole is not a legitimate lifestyle choice! There is such a thing as
right and wrong. It is wrong to live in a way that destroys the earth and
robs our children of a viable future! It is right to demonstrate
intolerance of evil!
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:48:12 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960722134812.0069d474@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Speaking of physical manifestations of female strength and power, I have
been working on my body and have been making good progress at shaping myself
to look the way I want to, and increase my stamina.
It's true that there is no one right way for a woman to look, but it's also
true that we further the cause by being the best we can be. I admit it bugs
me when I work hard to look good and feel strong and graceful, then somebody
discounts it by saying I've been suckered into trying to fulfill some male
fantasy. That's horseshit, y'know.

I was in pretty good shape a couple of years ago, then I got my modem and
got drawn into the online world. I was so mesmerized, so excited by all
that I could do with my computer that I spent hours everyday and hours each
night emailing, chatting, a reading/posting to newsgroups. I spent a lot of
time sitting whereas in the past I would have filled that time running
around. The pounds crept up on me, and one day I realized that I hated what
was happening to my body, and I knew I'd have to use some major
self-discipline to get it under control.

I decided to limit my online time, and to cut back on the snacking. Since I
wasn't online, I was back to running around, and the pounds began to melt
off. As my weight dropped I certainly looked better, and I felt better
about myself. The day came where I got rid of all my Queen-size clothes
and bought some regular size clothes, and that was a happy day for me! I
felt successful!

My husband never said anything unkind to me...he always says I'm beautiful,
no matter how I look. But out and about now, suddenly men are noticing me
again...one fellow fell all over himself to get the door for me at the store
the other day: it was really cute! You know, sex appeal is a great power,
and I personally want all the power of every kind that I can claim!

Yes, I happen to like being admired. I don't like walking into a social
situation where all the other women outshine me. I like to look as good as
I can: I think it's fun to feel pretty. *I* like looking at men and women
who are dressed up and well-groomed; who have obviously made an effort to be
attractive. I know women in general tend to prefer men who look sharp and
behave well, so it's not just the guys: it's human nature.

You can talk about diversity all you want, and yes, fat women have their
fans, skinny women have their fans, hairy women, tall women, very tiny women
all have their fans. Certainly you should accept yourself and love yourself
as you are, blah, blah, blah BUT I don't want to hear "appreciate diversity"
being used as a euphemism for "excuse laziness". I feel very strongly that
women should excell in every way, each in her own way, but especially in
health and physical ability. We gotta take good care of ourselves! It's
called: "Looking Out For Number One"! Letting yourself go to pot is not
loving yourself.

I wish all women would seek out some sport or activity and just go for
broke, if nothing else than for the fun of it. If the men like it and would
applaud, great! Do it anyway, even if they try to stop you! That's my
philosophy. :)

Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 16:16:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id: <199607222316.QAA01130@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2185

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

in regards to Patricia's letter, absolutely correct and very well put. But
what happens when men think for example that women bodybuilders (the
steroid ones) are not beautiful?

As was said before, everyone has their own idea of what's beautiful.
If everyone agreed one _one_ bodytype that's beautiful, and that's it,
a very small percentage of the population would ever have dates, etc.
No one is required to love a particular body type.

Does a woman have to be physically strong
in order to feel strong?Obviously, the answer depends on the
individual.

I am strong for my size, but I have never worked out for bulk. When I
work out, I work out to strengthen muscles I need in good shape for my
own health. I don't really "feel stronger" when I'm working out than
when I'm not. My muscle mass does not define who I am. I find it
amusing whenever on this list I mention "strong women" and a bunch of
the fellows assume I'm talking about female bodybuilders. When I say
"strong women" I mean strong on the inside. That's what counts.

personally I feel the more women break free of traditional ideas
about their role in society(for example-womens bodybuilding) the
better.It's only by being more assertive that women can do something for
their equality=yet where are all the assertive women?Sorry,if I'm not
making a lot of sense,I get the feeling no-one else is here!

Well, you're walking a thin line there. I think that women need to
feel they can be who they are, whether that's assertive, demure, etc.
Not all women are naturally assertive, and it's not right to force
them to act that way.

I think maybe you're confusing assertive with domineering. I've met a
lot of assertive women. "Assertive" doesn't mean "in your face,"
after all. A lot of women manage to be assertive without beating guys
up or ordering them around.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:48:21 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960722134821.00690fac@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Patricia wrote:
then I guess after we have given them surgery, drugs, genetic
engineering or whatever else to reach this MALE idea of strength...and
these fine "amazon babes" start feeling the affect of gravity and
menopause..I guess we should give them more surgery, drugs etc and if
they can't jump over physical fences after that...what...eliminate them.
this is still male hogwash.

Patricia, I'm with you: women can't be molded into fantastic, unrealistic
creatures just to be pleasing to men. Preposterous idea! If a guy can't get
get stiff for anything but some aerobicized 6-footer, then he would be
better employed thinking real hard about how *he* could *make himself
pleasing* to such women, and how to meet and court such women, and stop
wasting time trying to dream up a way to make women like that as common as a
glass of milk.

I do feel that a woman can make a informed and perfectly reasonable choice
to mold herself into her own physical ideal, for her own satisfaction.
Middle-aged and postmenopausal women benefit very much from regular
exercise, since it prevents/slows the development of osteoporosis, and
improves the mood and general stamina.

The Crone has been hit the hardest by the patriarchy's demand for nubile
female flesh. Women of experience, wisdom, and longevity are vitally
important, they must be appreciated, and encouraged to participate fully in
*all* spheres of life, including the sexual arena. They must not allow
themselves to become marginalized.

The emphasis on smooth skin and youthful vigor devalues women of age, and
this is deplorable. A postmenopausal woman can be very sexy, beautiful, and
an able and enthusiastic lover. With her childbearing years behind her, she
is free of the worry about birth control and the possibility of unwanted
pregnancy. Many older women find that their sex drive increases when the
estrogen slows down, and they feel more zest in general.

I am bisexual, and have enjoyed my sexual relations with older women much
more than with kids half my age. An older woman knows what's what, and is
much better company, in bed or out.

Still, there are certain realities: men have their requirements, and they
need their requirements met or they can't get their dicks up. The older a
guy gets, the more hands on attention he needs, and the more his fetishes
matter. Young guys have so much juice that they aren't as picky, but they
are also less likely to be interesting, or ready for a depth relationship.
Of course that doesn't matter if all you want is sex. If you want a mature
male, and what a mature male can bring you, then you are going to be
competing with girls and women of all ages, and it could get ugly.

If older women are going to compete with women the age of their
granddaughters for the attention of desireable men, they have to do it on
their own terms, and this doesn't just happen, it has to be arranged. It
takes some art, some guile, some craft, some sophistication, some treachery

warming the bench, bitching because guys are watching the cheerleaders.
Get the hell out of that situation, and see if you can get the cheerleaders
on your playing field, where they will look and act like snot-nosed
children, but you will be radiant, glamorous, self-assured and savvy. :)
"You look so pretty, dear. Really, you are perfect. Isn't it past your
bedtime?"

Seriously, the tight-skinned busty blonds are very popular and that is a
force to be reckoned with. We may not like the weather, but we just cope
anyway. I know many, many older and physically imperfect women who have
jolly active sex lives and happy marriages, which goes to show that guys are
in fact not blinded by looks, or of one mind about what makes a desirable
woman. The pure fact is that guys are as affected by a woman's mental
qualities and personality as they are by her body. That's real life.

My own mom found a new hubby after my dad died, and he was no leftover at
the game of life, but a healthy, good-looking, admirable male that was hotly
desired by many local widows. At 65+, my mom snagged a hunk and he gave her
a HUGE rock! :) he could have found a younger woman, probably, but she was
the one he wanted, and that was that.
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 17:19:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Personal and the Collective
Message-Id: <199607230019.RAA27111@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote, in response to Dee-Ann's excellent prose:
Well said, hear hear! That's another way that the "appreciate diversity"
cry has been perversely misused: as a defense of intolerable people! Being
an asshole is not a legitimate lifestyle choice! There is such a thing as
right and wrong. It is wrong to live in a way that destroys the earth and
robs our children of a viable future! It is right to demonstrate
intolerance of evil!

Yes, yes yes! Certain things do -not- fall under th' umbrella of diversity.
Even amongst the evil, Aleister Crowley is quoted as saying "Do as ye wont
shall be the whole of the law", which was slightly out of context : missing
an "An' it hurt no one." When things, such as assholehood, cause harm to
others, then it shouldn't be overlooked or "appreciated" as diversity. Some
things need to be opposed.

But.... Opinions on evil vary. Some think BDSM is evil. Myself, I think
Budweiser is evil, ('eiser' being an ancient word for evil) as are Coors
and Miller Lite. Does this mean I can oppose all them what drink such
unholies, under the premise that they are what they eat/drink? ;-

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 20:22:07 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Iran is allowing women to compete in the Olympics for the first time since
its revolution. However, the women can only compete in sports in which they
wear "modest dress," (which I assume means shooting), and not in such
sports as swimming and track and field.
Peter


I have to agree. There are plenty of very "smart" men who think that
women should "know their place." Just look at the number of big
companies with the woman's glass ceiling...no women in upper
management. Look at the male teachers who tell girls they're not fit
to study math and/or science. I can't remember which country it was,
but one country has a woman track star who has a great shot at winning
an Olympic medal...but, she's denounced by many big leader types (men)
for being in sports at all. I hope she wins a gold medal in her
event. :)

Dee-Ann

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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 20:24:43 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thank you for the compliment.
If you were really up to it, there are many boxing clubs around that offer
programs for women. And I'm sure they would train you even if you had no
intention of going into the ring.
Peter

great story peter..thanks for sharing
sounds like something I would like to do...
have punching bag and gloves and just tear into it..without worrying
about hurting someone.
Patricia


peter wrote:

There is an old boxing type in my community who has started a program where
he takes women who have been physically abused and gives them the same
training that he would give a professional boxer. And I'm talking about the
stereotypical training with punching bags that one sees in the old boxing
movies, or such as what "Rocky" went through.
I asked him if it was for self-defence and he replied, no, it was to build
self-esteem. From his many years as a trainer, he saw that the major
benefit of boxing was that he could take a boy from "the wrong side of the
tracks," who had low self-esteem, and build him into a confident man.
It was for this reason that he wanted to train these women to become more
self-confident.

Peter


while I am not a body builder, I would say it has to do with choice.
Women can be or do whoever they can be and whatever they can do for
their own self esteem and their own idea of what makes them "FEEL" good.
We are no longer tied to the masculine stereotype of what female beauty
is. If being strong makes us feel beautiful then we are beautiful to
ourselves and thats where beauty means something.
Patricia

b3016957@student.anu.edu.au wrote:

Could someone explain to me how bodybuilding amazon women are related to
femdom and femsupremacy?also,could some of these women write what it is
that motivates them to bodybuilding, to become femdoms etc.femsupremacy
DOES seem awfully quiet.
p.s any female bodybuilders, femdoms in australia subscribe to this list?
a very lonely femsupremist.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
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For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 04:02:52 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Women athletes from fundamentalist moslem countries.
Message-Id: <199607230202.EAA15384@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 20:22:07 -0500, peter wrote:

Iran is allowing women to compete in the Olympics for the first time since
its revolution. However, the women can only compete in sports in which they
wear "modest dress," (which I assume means shooting), and not in such

There is a woman competing in shooting in the olympics, but I can't
remember if she was actually from Iran. The Swedish commentators mentioned
it during the opening of the olympics. There was a close-up of her
carrying her country's flag.

There is however another woman from a moslem country competing in some
kind of running. Her life has been threatened according to the reports on
Swedish public service television, since she plans to dress the way other
women competing in this sport do.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 157

Today's Topics:
Societies Psydo-standards of Beauty
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type
Re: Women athletes
Re: Women and physical type

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 22:46:34 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Societies Psydo-standards of Beauty
Message-ID: <31F315BA.7AD5@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Chase wrote:
For instance, all the young women who insist on thinking of
themselves as hideously overweight, regardless of the facts. Society,
male and female, made them think they -had- to be slender, to the point
where people who are too skinny for good health starve themselves to death
because they still think they're heavy.)

Excellent point. For years I watched my wife and daughters struggle with
this false, ridiculous obsession with scrawniness. Health institutions,
fat farms, and the entire diet industry including the doctors who push
this observed skinniness indoctrination are getting rich by making women
insecure enough to pay millions of dollars to become like Barbie, skinny
arms and legs but of course abnormally thin waist and abnormally large
breasts. Barbie looks weird.
Don't misunderstand me. I am not putting down normally thin women who
are naturally thin. If God made you that way, that's wonderful. I'm
trying to lift up what I call "normal" women. My father used to say only
a dog wants a bone and a hank of hair. Well, that's his opinion, and a
preference I share. A preference, not THE LAW! All women are beautiful
in some way if you take the time to look deeper. To me it's an assault
on our mothers, wives and daughters in the name of money and greed. Your
life becomes an empty picture frame, always waiting for that great day in
the future when you have an acceptable body that's GOOD ENOUGH,
translation "thin enough, beautiful enough, perfect enough." As Patricia
says "hogwash"! My wife, after years of urging finally through away her
scale and we have never been happier. She looks normal to me, and is
gorgeous JUST THE WAY SHE IS! Add 30 pounds to the weight charts and
tell anyone who doesn't like it to take a hike! Be thin, fat or on the
middle and it's OK. I've known some incredibly sexy confident big
beautiful women who got a lot more male admiration because they were
confident and poised, then the classic thin knock out who thought she was
"all that" and was gorgeous on the outside, but obnoxious on the inside.
Stereotypes are hogwash! One hundred years ago, voluptuous ladies,
Ruben's and Renoir would be painting you as the IDEAL WOMAN! Be
yourself, and don't let this sexist, weight obsessed society rob you of a
happy, self accepting life!

Tony wrote:

Well, what better way of
ending this biologically based pattern of unfairness towards the female
sex than to actually CHANGE WOMEN? Why shouldn't we try to make the
next generation of women, or future generations of women at some point
in the future -- into Amazon women, capable of defending themselves
against men? This would be a very radical

Patricia Wrote:
then I guess after we have given them surgery, drugs, genetic
engineering or whatever else to reach this MALE idea of strength...and
these fine "amazon babes" start feeling the affect of gravity and
menopause guess we should give them more surgery, drugs, etc., and if
they can't jump over physical fences after that...what...eliminate them.
this is still male hogwash.

Bullseye Patricia! Change women? That's all society ever does is try to
change women. Whether your a puritan burning witches or a husband brow
beating her to loose a few pounds, or a boss telling her to be a little
more friendly to the clients, or a commercial for a fat farm or exercise
product etc.etc.etc. IT'S HOGWASH, IT'S WRONG, IT'S SICK, IT'S
MALE ORIENTED DOMINATION OF WOMEN AND NONE OF US SHOULD BUY IT!
Millions of women slice and dice their bodies to please society. Male
propaganda, supported by millions of insecure, and some predatory females
as well. Breasts enlargements, liposuction, tummy tucks ad infinitum ad
nausium. Stop, Stop, Stop this war against women now. Stop the
craziness!
You are beautiful, regardless of your dress size, if you believe you are
no matter what anyone says. You don't see men getting lipo'd guts do
ya? They just don't care, and they like themselves, gut and all. Why,
you ladies accept them that's why! Your Superiority shines once again,
you accepting lovely race you! God Bless Ya!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:48:25 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607230248.TAA18239@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com

Patricia, I'm with you: women can't be molded into fantastic,
unrealistic creatures just to be pleasing to men. Preposterous idea!
If a guy can't get get stiff for anything but some aerobicized
6-footer, then he would be better employed thinking real hard about
how *he* could *make himself pleasing* to such women, and how to meet
and court such women, and stop wasting time trying to dream up a way
to make women like that as common as a glass of milk.

This is emphatically untrue in my case. I can be incredibly turned on
and aroused by both a 5'1" (like that blonde on "Wings", for instance)
woman or a 6'3" woman like Gabrielle Reece. In other words, when it
comes to women, I am an equal opportunity "boner". I just FANTASIZE a
little more about the Amazon kind, because I am an ardent feminist and
to me, sexual fantasy in the context of that kind of "Female Supremacy"
is the penultimate feminist statement -- the ultimate feminist
statement being actual sex between a 5'9" guy like me and a taller,
stronger Amazon. I cannot quite identify what it is inside of me that
impels me to these shameful fantasies; I only know I have 'em and
assert that I should actually FEEL ashamed of having 'em.

The Crone has been hit the hardest by the patriarchy's demand for
nubile female flesh. Women of experience, wisdom, and longevity are
vitally important, they must be appreciated, and encouraged to

Yes, I am enamored of "nubile female flesh". So, crucify me if you
will. But remember I'm a human male. Moreover, I do not fault any
of your women for your "shameful" desires; that is, if you lust after
Chippendales dancers or Fabio or whatever, I applaud it! I am no hunk
like Fabio, with his mighty 65' chest (or whatever it is!)...
Sometimes I rue that fact. I work out in the gym daily in order to
keep my body looking attractive, primarily to women. I buy attractive
clothes to look well in public, and admittedly, that is done in large
part to appeal to women (most guys won't admit this; I just have).

The truth is, both sexes try to attract the opposite sex and this
shouldn't be belittled. That is politically correct nonsense. Also,
both sexes like "nubile flesh". Read authors like Thalma Heim ("The
Erotic Silence of the American Wife").

Plus, I for one look forward to the day when genetic research will slow
the aging process. The research is already in a pretty advanced
stage; amazing discoveries have been made in the past few years that
will astound us all. I hope they will be universally available.
Think of a time where we will retain our youthful appearance and
vigorous health and sexual potency/interest well into our 60's, 70's
and beyond. That time may be coming soon. If it doesn't come in my
lifetime, I won't cry...but if it does, there is reason for all of us
to rejoice.

Let us not all stumble over our honesty in order to maintain our
"political correctness"....

Tony


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 19:56:56 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id: <199607230256.TAA21309@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com

impels me to these shameful fantasies; I only know I have 'em and
assert that I should actually FEEL ashamed of having 'em.

..Er, I MEANT to say that I SHOULDN'T feel ashamed of having these
fantasies!!!!

Tony

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:10:15 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID: <31F46CC7.154C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

your fantasy is oppresive. thousands of young women are dying every day
from bulimia and other eating disorders to attain this so called perfect
look that you are talking about. Perfect for who. Perfect for insecure
me who have to prove they are worthwhile based on what the women on
their arm looks like. we are not ornaments. we are people.
I have no objection to physical fitness, but there are many more body
types that do not look like claudia shiffer then there are women who
look like claudia shiffer, as a matter of fact, even claudia shiffer
does not look like claudia shiffer without an airbrush.

I feel sorry for someone so easily influened by t.v. and Madison Avenue.
I feel sorry for anyone woman who has to be used to prove your worth as
a man by contorting herself into some body type..

the mind turns me on always has. I remember when I use to model for 17
magazine many years ago...I had all kinds of guys lining up to date
me...but what were these dates like. I was an extension of their brooks
brothers suits and expensive watches...it was look at me "I AM A MAN" I
got her. mines prettier and skinnier than yours so I am a better man
that you. This is your male game and I won't play.

Your freudian slip of being ashamed was no mistake....
Patricia

Tony wrote:

impels me to these shameful fantasies; I only know I have 'em and
assert that I should actually FEEL ashamed of having 'em.

..Er, I MEANT to say that I SHOULDN'T feel ashamed of having these
fantasies!!!!

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:28:01 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id: <199607230628.XAA10432@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com

your fantasy is oppresive. thousands of young women are dying every
day from bulimia and other eating disorders to attain this so called
perfect look that you are talking about.

First of all, how can a mere FANTASY oppress people? A fantasy is a
private desire, or at most a scenario enacted by two mutually
consenting human beings. Saying "your fantasy is oppressive" is
tantamount to condemning a person for their own tastes, as if I said,
"Your favorite color is mauve? Oh, that's oppressive. I think we
should all like shades of blue!"

Secondly, I sincerely doubt that THOUSANDS of young women are dying
each day from bulimia and other eating disorders. Perhaps from AIDS
or sexual battery or domestic violence, but certainly not from these
rather uncommon conditions, which strike only a small segment of the
population. Also, to attribute bulimia and other eating disorders to
male "fantasies" is just plain wrong. Most evidence shows that these
disorders are manifestations of innate psychological problems such as
anxiety disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, etc. Saying these
disorders result from societal pressures is tantamount to the old
"Twinkie Defense" profferred by accused murderers.

Think about it...

Tony


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:20:12 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID:

in message <199607230628.XAA10432@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com, Tony


First of all, how can a mere FANTASY oppress people? A fantasy is a
private desire, or at most a scenario enacted by two mutually
consenting human beings.
but in your case, it is one that you wanted to tell us all about!!!!!!!!
it might seem sad Tony but we both want to say that Fantasy is a root of
oppression.

Fantasy is an idea and the moment you communicate that idea you enter
the how to win fiends and influence people market. Simply by posting
your post you converted your fantasy into a debating tool and invited
people to take sides with an idea. Once a group agree an idea they can
agree an agenda of action and that has been what many of the posts
disagreeing boil down to: the way fantasies like attractive thin women
have become abusive systems of capital exploitation.

Many might see some books of the Bible as elaborate fantasies
(imaginative scenarios to explain and contextualise the world order of
the participant) or myth which is the technical term theologians will
recognise. Anyone out there who wants to try to separate fantasy and
myth post in, in our book they are pretty close.

Those who know their Genesis and its consequences will if they take this
view know the power of a fantasy to cause pain. Was Hitler a man
inspired by his fantasies?

If you can keep your fantasies private then perhaps they will do no
harm, but you could not hide yours (and we think many men (and women?)
including ourselves do like to share our fantasies). But if you share a
fantasy never underestimate its power potential.

So on a related subject we might pose the question: do folk feel even
private fantasies need internal censorship?

For ourselves we might have all sorts of wild sexual fantasies but we
get unhappy if they imagine non-consensual partners and likewise if we
read or encounter erotic literature which portrays non-consensual acts,
we find ourself asking how does this prevent the reader from wobbling
across the divide of fact and fiction, because is there not a process
where if we read an imaginative portrayal of any act it can assist the
legitimation of what was an idea into a reality?

From our limited knowledge of De Sade, he proved this point. He could
not restrain his behaviour to avoid non-consensual behaviour. Beat the
hell out of a partner with all the whips you can find is fine only if
that partner has willingly entered that gameplan.

So Tony have your fantasies about the perfect muscular or Barbie Doll
woman if you will, but realise that if you share them, you enter the
political arena and it is one that is charged with the use of these
fantasies in the non-consensual abuse of other persons.

--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 02:14:18 -0700
From: Ray Jones
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607230914.CAA28609@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:48 AM 7/22/96 -0400, you wrote:

The emphasis on smooth skin and youthful vigor devalues women of age, and
this is deplorable. A postmenopausal woman can be very sexy, beautiful, and
an able and enthusiastic lover. With her childbearing years behind her, she
is free of the worry about birth control and the possibility of unwanted
pregnancy. Many older women find that their sex drive increases when the
estrogen slows down, and they feel more zest in general.

I quite agree. A woman's personality is more desirable and goes toward
making her beautiful much more than her physical attributes. I've seen some
of the most beautiful women in the world that I thought quite ugly because
of their personality and/or attitude. I've seen some of (what others would
call) less desirable women who I felt were quite beautiful for the same reason.

I feel the same about age. I could care less if a woman is 16 or 66. It is
the "inner woman", I look for. Many older women are widowed, divorced, still
single or married and might as well be one of the above. Many of these women
crave companionship and maybe even sex. (grin) Just because there's snow on
the roof, doesn't mean there's not a "hot fire" in the fireplace. (grin)

Still, there are certain realities: men have their requirements, and they
need their requirements met or they can't get their dicks up. The older a

I can't disagree with this "in general" though women are the same. How many
women will pass up what might well be the "best thing" around for another
guy because he looks more like Robert Redford or some other "hunk". The
desire for "good looks" is not limited to men. I will admit that women (as a
group) seem to be less interested in looks than men, but it is true
nevertheless. As for me, my ONLY requirement(s) is a good personality and
attitude. I could care less what a woman looks like, what age she is, what
color she is or anything else.

guy gets, the more hands on attention he needs, and the more his fetishes
matter. Young guys have so much juice that they aren't as picky, but they
are also less likely to be interesting, or ready for a depth relationship.

I agree with the first part, but the same holds true for women. As for
"young guys" being less picky, I couldn't disagree more. Older men (if
they've learned anything in life anyway) know that looks are not important
and are "less picky". Younger guys might stick their dick in any hole they
can find, but they often will not. Even if they do, they'll "fuck you and
leave you". If you just want a "QUICK" roll in the hay, "go for it".

Of course that doesn't matter if all you want is sex. If you want a mature
male, and what a mature male can bring you, then you are going to be
competing with girls and women of all ages, and it could get ugly.

Some of the SEXIEST women I've seen were grandmothers. I once had a mother
and daughter on my buggy. The daughter was middle-aged (like me) and her
mother was in her 60's. The mother had a "sexuality" about her that radiated
about her. She was no better looking than her daughter, but "given a
choice", I'd have taken the older woman over the younger "in a heart beat"
though they were both very desirable in my book.

If older women are going to compete with women the age of their
granddaughters for the attention of desireable men, they have to do it on
their own terms, and this doesn't just happen, it has to be arranged. It
takes some art, some guile, some craft, some sophistication, some treachery


What woman doesn't have these qualities? (grin)

warming the bench, bitching because guys are watching the cheerleaders.
Get the hell out of that situation, and see if you can get the cheerleaders
on your playing field, where they will look and act like snot-nosed
children, but you will be radiant, glamorous, self-assured and savvy. :)
"You look so pretty, dear. Really, you are perfect. Isn't it past your
bedtime?"

I see you know how to play the game. (grin)

Seriously, the tight-skinned busty blonds are very popular and that is a

Not with me. I always feel that "more than a mouthful" is wasted anyway. I
don't think I've ever been with a "big breasted" woman in my life and though
I wouldn't mind it, I have no particular desire to do so anymore than I
would a "small to medium-breasted" one.

force to be reckoned with. We may not like the weather, but we just cope
anyway. I know many, many older and physically imperfect women who have
jolly active sex lives and happy marriages, which goes to show that guys are
in fact not blinded by looks, or of one mind about what makes a desirable
woman. The pure fact is that guys are as affected by a woman's mental
qualities and personality as they are by her body. That's real life.

Here! Here!

--
Regards,

Ray Jones
****************************************************************************
********
Coming to New Orleans? Contact "Big Ray" the Buggy Driver
Licensed Tour Guide

Historical tours through the romantic French Quarter in New Orleans, LA
Ride in a mule-drawn "vis-a-vis" carriage while enjoying the surroundings-
and being informed about the history, points of interest and other info

Cellular Phone - 884-9572 Digital Beeper 504-547-8032
Thu. thru Mon. 5 p.m. to midnight (appx.)


ray.jones@mail.sstar.com OR ray.jones@nopc.org

"Big Ray"'s home page http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:50:24 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women athletes
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I was once at a high school track and field meet that had a young Mennonite
woman competing. She could run only if she remained in her traditional
garb, which was a very modest, full-length dress. She finished last.
Peter

Magnus wrote:
There is however another woman from a moslem country competing in some
kind of running. Her life has been threatened according to the reports on
Swedish public service television, since she plans to dress the way other
women competing in this sport do.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 05:15:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-Id: <199607231215.FAA05858@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5032

Well, here's a twofer:

Tony wrote:

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 12:36:32 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
Subject: Re: Women and physical type

I have to take issue with what Coyote Sings says about physical type.
Not that I disagreed with his points, which made sense, but because he
seems to have confused those who FANTASIZE about the Xena/Gabby
Reece/Ubergirl type with those who PRESCRIBE it to other women as
something that "had better" be emulated.

Tony, I thought about you when this subject first came up, and
then consciously told myself that I wasn't criticizing your or
your tastes when I wrote what I did. You have honestly and eloquently
told about your personal tastes on alt.women.supremacy in
debate with some very self-realized women, and no harm done either
way. This wasn't about you (or for that matter me: I'm not very
public about my erotic tastes here, but I know that if I wanted
to this list would be the safest place to do it, and I don't really
mind those who do. We all need to do that at some point.)

That said, I =do= say that our =culture= prescribes that
women try to mold themselves upon a male-imposed, male-idealized
vision of Womanhood, and those who do not are penalized in some
significant way. Mostly male image-makers / image-recyclers are
still a malignant influence in our society. Much of modern ad art
featuring women is a stinging reproach to women as they really
are, just as the Marlboro man is to me (which is my problem to
deal with, but that doesn't make it right).

(Sing along with me: Janis Ian's 'Seventeen.')

This doesn't mean that I believe that all women, or even a
significant number of women run out and do eveything Madison
Avenue and Paris _couteriers_ (sp?) tell them to do / buy. In
fact most of the women I know do things for themselves and by
their own inner light.

HOWEVER, I humbly beg Coyote Sings to respect my right to fantasize as
I do here on this mailing list and on several newsgroups such as AWS.

I do, I do, Tony. As this list's resident religious nut (with
some new talent coming up fast ;] ), how can I not?

As for humble begging, I'll see yours and raise you 5,
thus:

Laura wote:

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:48:12 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
Subject: Re: Women and physical type

I admit it bugs
me when I work hard to look good and feel strong and graceful, then somebody
discounts it by saying I've been suckered into trying to fulfill some male
fantasy. That's horseshit, y'know.

Yes, it is, I know.

I'm not sure if that was meant for me, but it's possible the
shoe fits. If it does, please believe me when I say that wasn't
what I was trying to say at all. You and Sorceress have made it
very clear that working out and and generally taking care of
oneself and buffing up is a part of self-realization and general
Right Living, and as we you-know-what's say, is "an outward sign
of an inward grace." If I discounted or trivialized, or even seemed
to do, your life choices and pracices, then I do indeed humbly
apologize for that. I'm sorry.

All of this deserves more discission and wider dissemination:

Yes, I happen to like being admired. I don't like walking into a social
situation where all the other women outshine me. I like to look as good as
I can: I think it's fun to feel pretty. *I* like looking at men and women
who are dressed up and well-groomed; who have obviously made an effort to be
attractive. I know women in general tend to prefer men who look sharp and
behave well, so it's not just the guys: it's human nature.


You can talk about diversity all you want, and yes, fat women have their
fans, skinny women have their fans, hairy women, tall women, very tiny women
all have their fans. Certainly you should accept yourself and love yourself
as you are, blah, blah, blah BUT I don't want to hear "appreciate diversity"
being used as a euphemism for "excuse laziness". I feel very strongly that
women should excell in every way, each in her own way, but especially in
health and physical ability. We gotta take good care of ourselves! It's
called: "Looking Out For Number One"! Letting yourself go to pot is not
loving yourself.

and making damn sure no one else gets near you, either.
That way we don't have to deal with things like intimacy and
vulnerability or even getting on with life. Thank you for
that last line.

Peace?

Going for the Gold in the single mens' backpedalling event,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 158

Today's Topics:
Re: Woman athlete, moslem countries
Fantasies & oppression
eqality?
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: eqality?
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: eqality?
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Re: The Personal and the Collective
Re: Women and physical type

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 05:39:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: Woman athlete, moslem countries
Message-Id: <199607231239.FAA00834@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Magnus wrote:
There is a woman competing in shooting in the olympics, but I can't
remember if she was actually from Iran. The Swedish commentators mentioned
it during the opening of the olympics. There was a close-up of her
carrying her country's flag.

There is however another woman from a moslem country competing in some
kind of running. Her life has been threatened according to the reports on
Swedish public service television, since she plans to dress the way other
women competing in this sport do.

Believe the one who carried the flag was from Iraq, but I might've misheard
Iraq for Iran. She's definately a shooter, I believe air rifle but won't
swear to it. Anyone think her carrying the flag means a change for the
better over there, or that it was just meant as PR to improve the country's
image? (Or mebbe they 'let' her carry the flag so none of the men had to
labor at carrying it?)

The runner's name is Hassiba Boulmerka, who unlike the other Algerian 1500
meter runner, had to train in Cuba because the Muslim clerics at home
denounced her for "running with naked legs in front of men." She's con-
sidered to be a favorite for the gold in her event, and in 1991 became the
first Algerian of either sex to win a world championship.

Methinks she's a good role model for either sex, for having the drive to
excel, the courage to continue despite threats, and the brightness of
heart to still love and honor her country, despite the problems women in
her country face. Here's hoping she can win the gold.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:03:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fantasies & oppression
Message-Id: <199607231303.GAA02334@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tony responded:
your fantasy is oppresive. thousands of young women are dying every
day from bulimia and other eating disorders to attain this so called
perfect look that you are talking about.

First of all, how can a mere FANTASY oppress people? A fantasy is a
private desire, or at most a scenario enacted by two mutually
consenting human beings. Saying "your fantasy is oppressive" is
tantamount to condemning a person for their own tastes, as if I said,
"Your favorite color is mauve? Oh, that's oppressive. I think we
should all like shades of blue!"

-Having- a fantasy isn't overly oppressive, no, certainly not to the
point where one can say it's wrong to have a fantasy. Nonetheless it
can be oppressive, especially when the fantasy is shared by enough
people. Look at the Playboy model image that so many men fantasize
about, as well as all the supermodels and such. Women, especially young
women, are indirectly oppressed by the popularized fantasy of such women
as ideal mates, because most women can't approach that ideal image. But
they desperately keep trying, through crackpot diet after crackpot diet,
through bulimia, through wasting huge chunks of their lives in exercise
not because they want to be in shape, not for the sake of exercise or
fitness, but in a vain attempt to conform to a fantasized image.

Secondly - having a fantasy is one thing. Sharing it in less than
appropriate forums isn't. And while thoughts vary on just what is or is
not appropriate on this forum, a very good consensus exists that it's not
about male fantasies, certainly not male sexual fantasies.

An' no, I'm not saying that you've been thrusting your sexual fantasies
on everyone here; unlike some who've done nothing but, you've brought up
some good points. Gabrielle Reece and others like her -have- had a good
effect for many taller girls, who no longer slouch to minimize their
heights, no longer feel that being tall or being muscular or athletic is
unfeminine or undesirable. Femininity wears many faces, desire a thousand
crowns.

But... Propounding even for a moment that such tall athletics types are
the quintessential "New Woman" or ideal female supremacy type is a slap in
the face for all those assertive women who don't fit that stereotype or
don't -want- to fit that image. In effect, it's saying that those who
aren't like that... are somehow less than those who are. While I doubt
if you're saying that or implying it, Tony, there's many other Amazon
admirers who have, and are.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which menas you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:32:11 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au ()
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: eqality?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well, I suppose the discussion has become a bit more lively since a few
days ago.
Can't remember the name(sorry) but I do agree with the point that some
women like working out for themselves and others work out to be
admired.Perhaps it is a mixture of both. In any case, women shouldn't have
to conform,something that femsupremacy is all about!However, in the case of
what is fashion, obviously society has some impact upon anorexics,bulemics
and so on; it is not just psychological.I also feel that women need to be
STRONG physically AND mentally before femsupremacy can become a reality(or
at least femequality)If Arnold Scharwtznegger and a 40kg weakling were to
both forcibly state their opinions on world politics and say EXACTLY the
same thing, it is obvious who would win the debate. I know I'm going off
the track a little bit here but when JFK debated Nixon in a televised
debate JFK won the debate( that was broadcast on tv), although he lost the
very same debate that was broadcast simultaneously on radio-ie appearence
counts!
So basically, when one talks about equality and supremacy obviously
strength comes into it.How long has the male species used its superior
strength(in general) to dominate the female?Of course if the female was as
strong as the male it would be a whole new ball game.Then men would have to
regard women as equals and the degree of cheap,"you look good honey"
comments would fade rapidly if the man no-longer felt assured of his
superiority.I'm all for equality(and to a lesser degree femsupremacy)but
it just can't be achieved from a tougher personality.Not just brains but
brawn as well.Please correct me if I've gone off on a limb again!Matt.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:38:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id: <199607231338.GAA11366@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 4145

It's good to see the Forsythes back from holiday. I still owe them a
post to wind up my small strand of the Genesis thread.

They wrote:

Many might see some books of the Bible as elaborate fantasies
(imaginative scenarios to explain and contextualise the world order of
the participant) or myth which is the technical term theologians will
recognise. Anyone out there who wants to try to separate fantasy and
myth post in, in our book they are pretty close.

Thank you for raising the subject of Myth. The term is widely
misunderstood and is technical. It is often used to mean a
widely held falsehood, such as
'the myth of white supremacy,'
so that when one advocates a mythic approach to personal or
cultural understanding, that person is widely derided as being
superstitious, or something equally negative.

Myth as I use and understand it (without a book handy) means
either
'a story that illustrates a fundamental truth,'
or
'a story that helps us know ourselves,'
or
'a story that connects me with a universal truth
or my archetype - a story that connects me with you
and forms the basis of our common enterprise.'

Myth / myth is, then, in my checkered experience, a positive
word about how we talk about the things that give us meaning.

One of the reasons for the efficacy of the old-time 12-step
programs (another myth, using my definition - they saved my ass)
is that the folks practice rigorous honesty and then tell true
stories about themselves. Out of this two things emerge: One is
healing. The other are simple, universal truths that in time
amount to personal and corporate wisdom. In a word, Myth.

(I'll look up the =real= technical definition when I get up.)

Myth and fantasy: Myth is either corporate or universal and is
always about something that has been proven (even if only in
our subconscious) as true. Myth is necessarily past tense, but
about the future.

Fantasy is often or usually personal, and rises out of
a (personal) feeling of lack, loss or pain. Fantasy is a
script about 'how I would fill this empty space and restore
balance in my life. It's also future tense, but about the past.

People can have similar fantasies (just as they have similar
pain or loss), and a really clever chap like Hitler or any
one of a dozen contemporary Ayatollahs can exploit this and
make big bux (or whatever) by exploiting this shared pain.
The common technique is to peddle the shared fantasy as Myth:

'mystical ties of blood and soil' comes to mind,
as does the ever-recurring 'God is on our side.'
Fantasy tarted up as Myth.

Those who know their Genesis and its consequences will if they take this
view know the power of a fantasy to cause pain. Was Hitler a man
inspired by his fantasies?

His and those of others, and they weren't pretty.
He and Goebbels packaged them as myth, and had a =lot=
of good material to pervert for just that purpose.

Fantsasy is fine and healthy as a private truth for which I
take responsibility and embrace with eyes wide open in broad
daylight. It points to all kind of possibilities.

So on a related subject we might pose the question: do folk feel even
private fantasies need internal censorship?

No: left in the dark to fester, they can surprise us and
our friends in really lethal ways. I try to honor and own even my
darkest fantasies -even those that appear in nightmares- and
connect them to my bright sunny mythic values. I have my light,
and I have my shadow, and they must (and do) connect in really
novel ways.

A friend and I are grappling with that right now, to good effect.

Wow. Heady stuff. Thank you. Send more.
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:42:02 +1000
From: b3016957@student.anu.edu.au ()
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Finally, are there ANY subscribers LEFT in Australia?


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:54:38 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: eqality?
Message-ID: <31F503CE.347F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

but that is exactly the issue.

When women started to want to work in the building trades...men said
they can't do it they are not strong enough. males use to lift those
heavy wall panels (i forget what you call them) all by themselves and
said women could not do that. Well women came on the site and they
would help each other lift those heave panels. after awhile the men
starting using two to move them two... and the incidence of hernias and
back injuries for men went way down.

the object of femsupremacy is not to beat guys into submission...it is
the idea of a cooperative society rather than a top down..male dominated
one. It has to do with strength of character and love for the planet,
not with conquering and ruling by the whip. That may sound funny coming
from a DOMME...but I do not DOMME men to beat them into submission .. I
DOMME men because we are cooperating with each other to fulfill our
fantasies....
some would be surprised to read a description of DOMME/sub relationships
as cooperative....but they are.
patricia
So basically, when one talks about equality and supremacy obviously
strength comes into it.How long has the male species used its superior
strength(in general) to dominate the female?Of course if the female was as
strong as the male it would be a whole new ball game.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id: <199607231359.GAA14287@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 739

Matt asked:

Finally, are there ANY subscribers LEFT in Australia?

Dunno: there were 3 or 4.
If not, go out and talk it up, please.
We can't have what is in some ways a Futurist forum
without Oz on board! :D

(Speaking of Down Under but definitely not Oz, where's Tracey?)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:59:28 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID:

FEFirst of all, how can a mere FANTASY oppress people? A fantasy is a
FEprivate desire, or at most a scenario enacted by two mutually
FEconsenting human beings. Saying "your fantasy is oppressive" is
FEtantamount to condemning a person for their own tastes, as if I said,
FE"Your favorite color is mauve? Oh, that's oppressive. I think we
FEshould all like shades of blue!"

Your sarcasm is unwarranted and unnecessary. She is RIGHT,
the prototypical male fantasy has been inextricably woven
into our lives via the media, ie: movies, advertising,
television...

FESecondly, I sincerely doubt that THOUSANDS of young women are dying
FEeach day from bulimia and other eating disorders. Perhaps from AIDS

Additionally, your attention to fine detail begs the
issue. So what if it is hundreds and not thousands?
Have you never heard of literary license? The ISSUE
is that bulimia and anorexia exist at all, solely
for the purpose of becoming "acceptable" and adhereing
to an unrealistic ideal that was created by a male-
dominated media.

FEor sexual battery or domestic violence, but certainly not from these
FErather uncommon conditions, which strike only a small segment of the
FEpopulation. Also, to attribute bulimia and other eating disorders to
FEmale "fantasies" is just plain wrong. Most evidence shows that these

There are whole fields of study devoted to eating
disorders--if you have facts, state them, and your
sources. If you do not, you cannot make patent
comments...and besides, you are wrong.

FEThink about it...

"Think about it..."? THIS is the most pompous and arrogant
cliche you can type. Fortunately, it only makes YOU
look like a pompous, arrogant ass. Which of course,
is your prerogative.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:06:42 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: eqality?
Message-ID: <4lCPiAAyxN9xEwhN@forsythe.demon.co.uk

In message
b3016957@student.anu.edu.au writes inter alia
Arnold Scharwtznegger and a 40kg weakling were to
both forcibly state their opinions on world politics and say EXACTLY the
same thing, it is obvious who would win the debate.

that is surely playing the power game that is the root of the problem,
the point we feel is that in a world where our ideal of the feminine
ruled, such a pair would never be pitted against one another in the
first place,

is the world of femsupremacy the one where the lion lies down with the
lamb? (or for those male subs around here where the lion becomes the
lamb (and does it matter which is which, so long as persons negotiate
their own space and stop the power lust of the bully (except in the
consensual fun of masters/mistresses and slaves))).
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:24:12 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID: <31F50ABC.5235@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

tony said, "Most evidence shows that these
disorders are manifestations of innate psychological problems such as
anxiety disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, etc."

The American Psychological society says:
Anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa are psychiatric syndromes whose
underlying pathology has been described as the relentless pursuit of
thinness. (now why do you think they are pursuing this thinness at risk
to there life?)
95% of patients with anorexia nervosa or bulimia nervosa is female,
young, single.

at the other end of the spectrum from the american medical association:
It is increasingly recognized that obesity is not a failure of will or
behavior, nor is it a disorder of
body weight regulation. It is a chronic medical condition, like
hypertension or diabetes. In the obese
person, body weight is just as carefully regulated as it is in nonobese
persons, but regulation is
around an elevated set point.

and my mistake tony, it is over 100,000 young women a year who die from
anorexia and bulimia....is that an acceptable number.

while there is nothing wrong with women who can (who have the body
type--and that is a gift from their genetics) to be thin and strong as
"they" define it..when they are doing so for themselves and not to be
acceptable to some male and his perception of what an acceptable or
attractive female is.

Your fantasy, (which by-the-way you did say you acted on when you could)
is harmful. This competition between women set up by male definition in
the beauty arena has to stop. I was not better than any other woman
when I was 21 and earning top dollars for modelling in New York...but
men set me up that way and women treated me that way. I am not worse
than any other woman at 51, because my genetics have put weight on
me..but men set me up that way..and women buy into it by saying..see I
am a better woman then her I keep fit, I have self-discipline etc..it
simply is not true.
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:27:03 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID: <31F50B67.2A1D@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote...Tracey is from New Zealand....a horse of a very different color
than Australia....
and hugs Coyote
Patricia

Coyote Sings wrote:

Matt asked:

Finally, are there ANY subscribers LEFT in Australia?

Dunno: there were 3 or 4.
If not, go out and talk it up, please.
We can't have what is in some ways a Futurist forum
without Oz on board! :D

(Speaking of Down Under but definitely not Oz, where's Tracey?)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:37:58 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-ID:

FEYour fantasy, (which by-the-way you did say you acted on when you could)
FEis harmful. This competition between women set up by male definition in
FEthe beauty arena has to stop. I was not better than any other woman
FEwhen I was 21 and earning top dollars for modelling in New York...but
FEmen set me up that way and women treated me that way. I am not worse
FEthan any other woman at 51, because my genetics have put weight on
FEme..but men set me up that way..and women buy into it by saying..see I
FEam a better woman then her I keep fit, I have self-discipline etc..it
FEsimply is not true.

Kudos to you, Sistah. I used to model in NYC too--
for Johnathon Logan and some free-lance petite
show-room and catalog work. $50-$100 bux an hour
was intoxicating money!

Today however, I can make three or four times that,
by beating the shit out of some obese power-monger
with more money than testosterone--and do not
misinterpret my words! I *ADORE* men--not ALL men,
mind you, but the rara avis.

Blessings on us!