Bonus question: In the eyes of U.S. Federal authorities who is likely
to be regarded as a better parent: 1. A hard-working, honest, and decent
couple who happen to engage in a Female Dominant relationship in the privacy
of their own home, or 2. A couple of absentee crack addicts. The answer
should be a no-brainer, but somehow, in the eyes of some people, the first
couple would be regarded as a more dangerous influence.

I know a lot of people are going to argue the point, but think about
this...it seems to me that in the second case, such behavior might very well
be ignored by authorities until it would become a newsworthy event that they
failed to act (a camera crew shows the kids living alone in filth, etc.), and
at that point they'd act decisively. In the second case, though, they'd
either do nothing about it, or their attitude would swing about 180 degrees,
and without any prompting from the media, they'd be calling press conferences
to show everyone how they'd saved some kids from the life of debauchery that
was being thrust upon them by their sick parents.

I know this whole post has a tendency to ramble on a bit, and I
apologise for that. I also know that my examples are extreme cases, but I
wanted to try and show the parallels between how some of our lifestyles might
be viewed by authorities, and how a truly irresponsible situation might be
viewed. I'd also like to apologise if anything I've said in this post
offends anyone, particularly Tracey who works for the Government of New
Zealand. My distrust of big government is something that I limit to the
U.S., Britain, and Canada, and so I don't mean to insult the governments of
other nations, or those persons who may work for them.

CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:46:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id: <199607231446.HAA16933@netcom4.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 788


Coyote...Tracey is from New Zealand....a horse of a very different color
than Australia....
and hugs Coyote
Patricia

(Speaking of Down Under but definitely not Oz, where's Tracey?)

That's why I was so careful about the 'not Oz'- I've had
NZedders on my case bigtime for failing to observe the
distinction. Like lumping Canada with the US eh? ;9

Sooooo, other than somewhere in NZ, where's Tracey?
She said something about getting a new address,,,

Hugs back atcha hey ;]

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:53:32 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Personal and the Collective
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960723075332.00681890@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Lawless the pepper-picker wrote:

... When things, such as assholehood, cause harm to
others, then it shouldn't be overlooked or "appreciated" as diversity. Some
things need to be opposed.

But.... Opinions on evil vary. Some think BDSM is evil. Myself, I think
Budweiser is evil, ('eiser' being an ancient word for evil) as are Coors
and Miller Lite. Does this mean I can oppose all them what drink such
unholies, under the premise that they are what they eat/drink? ;-

Just don't oppose evil in a way that makes you cross the line and become
part of the problem. If, in opposing jerks you become a jerk yourself, then
what cause has been served? Could it be...SATAN!?
;)

Sooo....beat the drum in favor of your brew of choice, and tempt the
undecided with side-by-side taste-tests, but don't verbally or physically
attack the Bud truck guy, for example. :) (Unless he attacks you first...but
you knew that)


Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:11:06 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-ID:

EPatricia wrote:
FEMen have endured pain and danger for beauty too. Men have sought surgery,
FEtaken steroids, worn corsets, etc. Men have even had extreme procedures
FEforced on them, in the name of fashion, or to "prove manhood", etc. I hope
FEthe day is coming when such things will be purely elective, and the natural,
FEhuman body will be appreciated for the perfection it is.

I, personally, will not bed a man who is fat, bearded,
moustachioed, bald, poor, under-endowed, under-educated,
geographically challenged, poor, short, dumb, dirty,
unsuccessful, MARRIED, OLD or otherwise "imperfect."

Mmmmm, now where have I heard this before?
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #158
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:
Re: meretool
Re: Remove from Newsgroup List
Holiday
meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Holiday
Re: Holiday
Re: Holiday
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: Capitalization.
Re: Holiday
brain function and gender
No morality, only a hard journey
Re: Holiday
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: Capitalization
Re: Holiday

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:07:20 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool
Message-ID: <31CDCE28.187F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear mere:

I would say..pay attention, be yourself..and if you get really out of
line..someone will call you on it...DO your BEST, since you are mere
sub..you are bound to make mistakes .. but this is safe place for you to
grow in...
patricia

Ymeretool@aol.com wrote:

Thank You, Ma'am. i am learning. i really want to be a new man ... moulded
by a strong Woman. Everyday i say the SMC chant ... Women lead, the men
may follow, etc. As to rules for males on the list, Ma'am ... should i know
anything? Your boy, meretool

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:54:46 -0400
From: Rosevelyn@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Remove from Newsgroup List
Message-ID: <960623175444_337145542@emout16.mail.aol.com

Thank you for removing me from your list. The mail is overwhelming!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:48:09 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Holiday
Message-ID: <5903460924061996/A00775/DALEK/11A6C26E0100*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A6C26E0100


Happy Winter Solstice Tracey - it's wonderful to know that enlightment is
spanning the globe.

Jon

Thanks Jon. :^)

I have also been reading all your interesting posts on religion and some good
points have been brought up. My own opinion on religion is it's usually based
on greed and the true reason of religion, like the ten commandments, have been
lost. The original purpose of the bible was probably to instill basic law and
social order. And perhaps to answer the yet, unanswered questions, like, how
did we become.

Thanks to this list, I have been made more aware of the dominance of the male
gender. Remarks that I wouldn't had bothered with are getting on my nerves,
like; "the reason why she is successful is because she has a man's brain".
Grrrrr. And I watch loads of movies and it's not surprising when the damsel in
distress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put it to
you, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role. No,
not movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll start
the ball rolling...

The Quick and the Dead
The Piano
Tank Girl
Thelma & Louise

Tracey

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:25:57 -0400
From: Ymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <960623192556_562479007@emout08.mail.aol.com

To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

On thing confuses me, Ma'am. i know that some males have
slave contracts but the manual in Femsupremacy archives says
nothing about limits or rights of slaves. Assuming that i am to be
a slave, does a Mistress choose me or is there some kind of
contract. i am confused and i would like to know if serious
Female Supremacists have a firm policy on the subject. If a
Woman takes me as Her slave, do i always have to submit?
Sorry to be long-winded, Ma'am. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:25:07 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Actually this begs some questions (and please don't think I'm being
sarcastic or downgrading someone else):
But, do most dominant women want a man who will put them on a pedestal, or
a snivelling wimp?
Should this man be confident and aggressive when in public and a snivelling
wimp in the woman's presence?
Or should the man be confident and self-assured at all times, even when he
is with the woman?
Peter

To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

On thing confuses me, Ma'am. i know that some males have
slave contracts but the manual in Femsupremacy archives says
nothing about limits or rights of slaves. Assuming that i am to be
a slave, does a Mistress choose me or is there some kind of
contract. i am confused and i would like to know if serious
Female Supremacists have a firm policy on the subject. If a
Woman takes me as Her slave, do i always have to submit?
Sorry to be long-winded, Ma'am. meretool



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:14:32 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Holiday
Message-ID:

FEdistress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put it to
FEyou, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role.
FEnot movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll st
FEthe ball rolling...

FEThe Quick and the Dead
FEThe Piano
FETank Girl
FEThelma & Louise

^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead--
Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
pay anyway. I hated that.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:40:21 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-ID: <31CE1C35.4B2D@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

yeah, but they made enough money to buy their own scripts and open their
own production companies and now we are seeing some really good stuff
about really strong women.
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEdistress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put it to
FEyou, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role.
FEnot movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll st
FEthe ball rolling...

FEThe Quick and the Dead
FEThe Piano
FETank Girl
FEThelma & Louise

^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead--
Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
pay anyway. I hated that.
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEThelma & Louise

^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead--
Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
pay anyway. I hated that.

I agree, but the ending struck a very deep chord within me---it
seemed to be an extension of the best of the Greek tragedies. They
went down in flames but they went together, and the handholding is
something I will never forget.
There will always be room in literature (and movies) for
tragedies. My feeling is that they should serve as vehicles for motivation
instead of resignation.

Peace,

Barry


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:41:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-Id: <199606240241.WAA20278@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:25 PM 6/23/96 -0400, Ymeretool wrote:
To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

Welcome to the group Ymeretool.

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll toss my 2 cents in for what
it's worth. *donning flame-proof undies*

Why are you putting yourself down so for simply being born a male? I agree
that women are to be honored and adored and that they possess many superior
qualities (empathy, healing, inner strength, etc), but I like to think we
males bring something to the table also. Without us, women can not be
superior ;)

I feel we should all endeavor to be the best we can be in order to serve Her
better. We should treat ourselves (and others) with respect and care, and
strive to make ourselves more useful, appealing and interesting to Her. That
takes effort and self esteem. We're not defective, just gender-challenged.

I would think a women would more appreciate a capable, intelligent, and sharing
man rather than a "doormat" mindlessly kneeling and groveling. But I may
be wrong. ;) Paul (aka maidpaula)

p.s. By the way Ymeretool, you are very correct...don't try to top from
the bottom.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:56:26 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <31CE2E0A.14EB@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I second the notion and motion that...subs be capable, intelligent and
sharing....
Patricia


pgm@servtech.com wrote:

At 07:25 PM 6/23/96 -0400, Ymeretool wrote:
To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

Welcome to the group Ymeretool.

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll toss my 2 cents in for what
it's worth. *donning flame-proof undies*

Why are you putting yourself down so for simply being born a male? I agree
that women are to be honored and adored and that they possess many superior
qualities (empathy, healing, inner strength, etc), but I like to think we
males bring something to the table also. Without us, women can not be
superior ;)

I feel we should all endeavor to be the best we can be in order to serve Her
better. We should treat ourselves (and others) with respect and care, and
strive to make ourselves more useful, appealing and interesting to Her. That
takes effort and self esteem. We're not defective, just gender-challenged.

I would think a women would more appreciate a capable, intelligent, and sharing
man rather than a "doormat" mindlessly kneeling and groveling. But I may
be wrong. ;) Paul (aka maidpaula)

p.s. By the way Ymeretool, you are very correct...don't try to top from
the bottom.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:03:57 -0400
From: willow
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <31CE059D.3096EE5@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ms Noble is indulgent and kind :)

*bow*
willow


Noble wrote:

I second the notion and motion that...subs be capable, intelligent and
sharing....
Patricia


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:50:35 +0200
From: jcalvo
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Capitalization.
Message-Id: <199606240603.HAA27648@jet.es
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Perhap you have a problem with your kerboar?

At 13:44 23/06/96 -0500, you wrote:
Patricia:
Does this mean that should i ever write to You, that i should use the lower
case when referring to me?
peter


it only makes me go GRRR when I have told someone to write that way...in
general bad grammar makes me go GRRRR...
(@) (@)
c
\_____/

Patricia

peter wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly.
And what type of relationship are we talking about in the D/S mode?
It may be the traditional leather-clad dominatrix relationship or one in
which the woman enjoys having a man put her on a pedestal and have his
world revolve around her.
Shouldn't this be something that is discussed beforehand by two people?
Peter


I managed to delete Chase's letter before I decided to comment. Stupid!

Anyway, it seems to me that you've overlooked a detail in your letter.
This is a female supremacy mailing list. Your letter seemed to exclusively
deal with female dominance. What you or anyone else choose to do about that
distinction is for the person in question to decideof course.

You'll notice that I personally try to abide by English grammar as
best as
I can, even if it makes Patricia GRR in front of her screen :).

---



___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


a x e l

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:44:36 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-Id: <199606241044.UAA19332@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tracey said:
so, I put it to
you, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role. No,
not movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll start
the ball rolling...

The Quick and the Dead
The Piano
Tank Girl
Thelma & Louise

It's interesting to note that The Piano is a South Australian production, by
a fine Australian Director by the name of Jane Campion, who I might add, we
will hear a lot more from.
But to pick up from this thread:

Maitresse
Exit to Eden (featuring another Ozzie, Paul Mercurio, as a sub)

Michael from down under


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 03:06:01 -0700
From: Brett J Wakefield
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: brain function and gender
Message-ID: <31CE6889.4329@slip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As a forward, I apologize for not having more details Re: the following,
but I was making breakfast for The Woman when this was broadcast on a CNN
science report.

A scientist did some research using SAT math problems with male and
female subjects, followed by CAT scans which indicated that male brains
activity occurred in those portions of the brain shared with other
simians;i.e., males used same parts of brain as chimpanzees to solve
problems; while females brain activity occurred in areas of the brain
involving higher limbic function that were exclusively human and did not
exist in other species.

Since I'm not a neurologist, I don't hesitate to suggest that this is
further proof that women are more evolved than males.

Brett

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:26:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: No morality, only a hard journey
Message-Id: <199606241226.FAA03118@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1559

Tracey wrote:

And perhaps to answer the yet, unanswered questions, like, how
did we become.

,,,Or the really big questions:
Who am I? Who are we?

And no religion will impart this if we simply sit there and
passively wait for it to tell us. A religion is only a map,
an invitation to a journey, and perhaps the account of some of
those who have already made the journey, usually in the form of
myths and allegories, and a lot of mystery. (Mystery helps us
frame good questions, just as myths help us grasp the context.)

I have a map here. I cannot sit here and wait for the map to
get me to California.

Tracey is right: No religion successfully teaches morality (even
if it purports to). To expect that is to miss the point.

But learning who we are (by following a path to that knowledge)
frees us to be moral beings. Morality is only a by-product of
a healthy identity, of knowing who I am and who the Other is, and
being comfortable with that knowledge.

And religion, any religion, means both risk and damned hard
work. There is no Father Christmas, Virginia.

Peace ;]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-Id: <199606241242.FAA04042@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1229

Tracey put it to us:

Grrrrr. And I watch loads of movies and it's not surprising when the damsel
in distress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put
it to you, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominant
role. No, not movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly
stuff. Here, I'll start the ball rolling...

The Quick and the Dead
The Piano
Tank Girl
Thelma & Louise

How 'bout

The African Queen
Driving Miss Daisy
The Colour Purple
Fried Green Tomatoes
Baghdad Cafe
Basic Instinct and
that movie about sexual harrassment with Demi Moore and Michael
Douglas.

(In all of these the woman/women set the direction, define the
story line and the other characters, and generally decide who wins
and who loses. My own life is a never-ending replay of The African
Queen morphed into Baghdad Cafe ;d )

(In 'Purple' and 'Tomatoes,' there are no significant men at all.)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:15:12 -0400
From: Ymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <960624091510_337694830@emout08.mail.aol.com

males do not have to be wimps ... that is true. Men may hunt and
build (the SMC chant says) and hunters and builders must be strong
and resourceful. The bottom line though (no pun intended) is that
males must never forget that Women must lead and rule them. And
there should be outward signs of male acceptance of their subordinate
status. Lower case i ... calling all Women 'Ma'am', etc. The mentality
of the new male must be reinforced. Just my opinion. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:20:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Message-Id: <199606241320.GAA06828@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1461

Laura Goodwin (writing about 'Capitalization') gave some beautiful
examples of modern English usage in Goddess worship, discussed its merits,
and ended with

I don't imagine this will catch on though...who needs more rules of
grammar? Most people can't keep up with the ones we've got. :)

Probably not, but it's important to make the effort to have a 'special
language' for very special purposes. In the examples Laura gave, what
she's doing is marking off sacred space for sacred purposes. It says,
'here we do this, and do our best, and nothing else intrudes.'

In the same way we use language to set off other special events in our lives,
whether we're in court fighting a traffic ticket or are playing tennis,
or are making love. Even 'baby talk' is part of this.

The trick is to set the =events= off for their special purpose but not shut
out the people. 'Good' liturgy, like any good theater, both sticks to the
story and invites people in to share it.

Laura's examples do just that. :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:37:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Glover
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Excellent concepts.
As my Mom used to say "your Father is the Head of the house; but I am the
neck and I can turn the head any way I choose".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #116
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:
Re: confused
Re: confused
Re: confused
Re: confused
Re: Manual
Re: http://www.domina.fr/
Re: Changing Attitudes
Re: Changing Attitudes
Re: Changing Attitudes
Word Macro Virus
Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Reversed roles.
Re: Changing Attitudes
Re: confused
BDSM Emblem

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:02:15 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-ID: <31C219A7.4D8F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

yes, indeed this is heavy stuff and I did not answer earlier because I
do not wish to criticize any Domme, when I do not know all the
facts....but

I always have periods of discussion where my sub and I can speak freely
and give feedback about what has been occuring between us recently. I
do not think it is a good idea (or very nice) to keep sub in position
where he does not know who has final word over his behavior. I don't
think the point is to keep sub constantly insecure...it is hard enough
to train them...about who they belong too.

Personally..(and I know others do differently and this is no judgement)
I would not loan my sub out if I were not there. If the point is to
have someone else train them...say I were new DOMME..the point would be
for me to be there and learn. This is kind of charged and I do not want
to criticize another DOMME. I can only say for myself...I love my
pet..I have told him that he does not have to worry about anything
anymore .. except pleasing me... a DOMME takes on a big responsibility
when she takes a sub for her own. If his job is to keep centered on me
and my pleasure...my job is to keep his world as safe and as empty of
any distractions from that task as I can. That's how I see it. It's
not easy being DOMME...but what would you poor babies do without us.

I demand my subs speak of their feelings on things as they move along.
At the end of a new scene, at the end of a particularly tough training
day...when wills have been tested and mine always wins....i make sure
there is time for check ins to makes sure that lessons have been learned
and my pet is still wanting to nothing else in the world but please me.
this is not fascism you know!
Patricia


Jon Woolven wrote:

Original message:

To the Matriarchs, the petition of slave 49442 humbly sheweth that it (that is
what my current Mistress calls me) is confused. i was disrespectful to my
original Mistress and She released me to another Mistress for intensive
obedience training. my original Mistress said that my servitude to my new
Mistress had to be by mutual consent but my current Mistress seems to believe
that i have no rights or limits. Also, my original Mistress told me that She
could take me back some day but my current Mistress wants me to be Her property
forever. my original Mistress is kind to me and She has told me to come to Her
for advice. i am confused about who really owns me. slave 49442

Phew, heavy stuff.
Advice from a fellow submissive:

- Do you have any vestige of self will at all?
If so, make your own decisions whilst being honest and
respectful to both parties.

- If your will has been completely crushed
Obey the Mistress which has the greater control
of your mind.

-If you care for my advice:
Female supremacy is not about selfish, stormtroopers
trampling all before them. This is a great fantasy
(and mine are pretty mindblowing) but not such a
good reality.

Observe the behaviour of the lady contributors to this forum.
They are magnificently superior, intelligent and witty but also
civilised and considerate. Is this not a better model for the future
than a direct replacement of male brutality with a female version?

You may find that Mistress Two is just staying in role, sensing your
own extreme submissiveness. Try to address her outside of this
role for a moment and the dilemma may disappear. If not, plead for
renewed service with Mistress one, she sounds better balanced
to me.

Keep things in proportion. Enjoy yourself sexually but let it
overwhelm you. Work for a better world.

Jon

___________________________________________________________________ Questions
and comments should be sent to listmasterenaissoft.com. For a list and
description of supported mailing list commands, send mail to
femsupremacy-requestenaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

--
MZê

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:59:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-Id: <199606142359.TAA16247@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:02 PM 6/14/96 -0700, you wrote:

a DOMME takes on a big responsibility
when she takes a sub for her own. If his job is to keep centered on me
and my pleasure...my job is to keep his world as safe and as empty of
any distractions from that task as I can. That's how I see it.

Yes, it is a big responsibility and one not to be taken lightly. The
Domme and the sub should endeavor to communicate honestly and define their
roles and limits and responsibilities (emotional, physical, and spiritual)
in order to prevent the quandry slave 49442 finds himself in. Sometimes
the Domme is not capable or not caring enough (for what ever reason) and
a sub can find him/herself crushed and confused. Not a good space to be in.

It's not easy being DOMME...but what would you poor babies do without us.

I appreciate the effort, thought and time that goes into being a "good"
Domme. Without the Domme's efforts, submission itself would be impossible ;)

I demand my subs speak of their feelings on things as they move along.
At the end of a new scene, at the end of a particularly tough training
day...when wills have been tested and mine always wins....i make sure
there is time for check ins to makes sure that lessons have been learned
and my pet is still wanting to nothing else in the world but please me.
this is not fascism you know!
Patricia

I'm glad to hear you say that. I view the scene as consensual with mutual
pleasure for both, and ongoing communication and feedback ensures that pleasure
and fulfillment are attained. I like the idea of two souls uniting and forming
a glorious bond that takes both higher than each could attain on their own.

Just a thought, Paul (or mp or paula or maid or...)



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-Id: <199606150006.UAA16556@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:33 PM 6/14/96 EDT, you wrote:
-If you care for my advice:
Female supremacy is not about selfish, stormtroopers
trampling all before them. This is a great fantasy
(and mine are pretty mindblowing) but not such a
good reality.

Observe the behaviour of the lady contributors to this forum.
They are magnificently superior, intelligent and witty but also
civilised and considerate. Is this not a better model for the future
than a direct replacement of male brutality with a female version?

Jon- I can only "second" your advice...very well stated. There has been, and
still is, far too much brutality in the world. Hopefully, as women gain more
power and influence in our society and culture, they will show all of us a
better way of viewing and relating to each other and the world in general.

another subbie and female admirer, Paul

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 06:24:44 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-Id: <199606151324.GAA11805@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

slave 49442 wrote:


i was disrespectful to my original Mistress and She released me to
another Mistress for intensive obedience training.

Then the second mistress is your original Mistress's agent and deputy.

my original Mistress said that my servitude to my new Mistress had to
be by mutual consent but my current Mistress seems to believe that i
have no rights or limits. Also, my original Mistress told me that She
could take me back some day but my current Mistress wants me to be Her
property forever.

It sounds like the deputy mistress is not only derelic in her duty, but
is betraying your mistress's trust by trying to take you on
permanantly, when this was not a permanant arrangement. The agreement
is not being adhered to, so of course you are confused.

my original Mistress is kind to me and She has told me to come
to Her for advice. i am confused about who really owns me.

Return to your original Mistress and tell her everything. Refuse to
continue with this second mistress unless the difficulties are worked
out.


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:07:42 -0400
From: tiresius@magnet.ca (Tiresius)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Manual
Message-Id: <9606151907.AA13945@python.magnet.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tiresius- I couldn't agree more. I would never be so presumptuous as to
believe that I would know how to serve and please a woman better than the
woman herself. She is the only one who fully and truly knows what she
desires and seeks (if she's in touch with her supremacy, but that's


In short, I believe such manuals are appropriate feedback, just
incorrectly titled.


There has been many excellent replies to my original posting, which
was my sole intent. I did not intend to criticize the author of the
available "training manual," and over all thought it is well written. I
posted my original post, in that I thought it interesting that there were no
similar manual(s) written by women.

While I doubt many people would take any "training manual" and use
it as their "bible," I do believe there IS a role for such manuals. In
fact, I can see several.

Writing such a manual, I believe is a good exercise.
An Authouress might find it an excellent means to clarify her
objectives, and means to arrive at her goals. While an author, can offer
insights of himself that might be fruitfully persued.

While I doubt no two people would appraoch the subject exactly like
another, reading such manuals gives insights to the approaches that others
have taken, and what has and has not worked by others.

However, without "commentary," this fruitful discussion might be
missed. So far, there has been some "fruitful commentary," and if there is
an "interest," this might continue.

Ideally, most of us would write "our own" "training manual" and
offer it here for discussion and commentary. However, I do realize the
momentous undertaking that this implies, and I doubt few of us have the time.

Hopefully, some might be "inspired" to write, and I am certain it
would be a benefit to us all.

Best wishes,
Tiresius
Tiresius@Magnet.ca

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 17:30:08 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: http://www.domina.fr/
Message-Id: <199606151528.RAA12247@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:59:40 -0700, lanoline wrote:

Please find herewith the URL of the Demonia magazine.


http://www.domina.fr/

I chose the English version, but I still got the French. Seems to be a
defunct server.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:38:28 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-ID: <31C31134.7E50@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jon--

My place of work is about 65% female / 35% male
which some of you will doubtless envy. We recruit
frequently and I'm often involved in the decision.
My boss is female and she's a very potent mixture
of tough and tender.

Why don't you give her the address for the femsupremacy
mailing list?

She would like to see a 50/50 split, which see thinks
gives the optimal working environment and mix of talents.
She is therefore happy when we employ a new man.

Perhaps, she could be convinced that as
all-woman company may actually be more interesting and
profitable. ;)

However, and this is the crux, both my boss and I
always select the best person for the job, whoever it may
be. I don't try to push the claims of a woman, if I don't
believe she's the best candidate. Even men need to earn a
living after all.

As you work for someone who appears to be powerful in her
own right, perhaps you are already doing things in the way
you should be.

Consider your options? Are you going to continue to work for
her? Could you start your own company doing the same thing
your female boss is doing (being her competitor) and hire in
a way that makes you most comfortable? Could you somehow
convince her that she should not worry about the 50/50 mix,
but just consider hiring the best candidates, and that if those
candidates happen to be women, just to go with them women...?

Jon, I think it is interesting and would like to know more
about what happens here.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 96 18:07:21 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-ID: <960615220721_100410.1764_BHG60-1@CompuServe.COM

Thanks for your thought provoking reply Jet. I'll do my best to respond.

My first message--
My place of work is about 65% female / 35% male which some of you will
doubtless envy. We recruit frequently and I'm often involved in the decision.
My boss is female and she's a very potent mixture of tough and tender.

Jet's reply--
Why don't you give her the address for the femsupremacy mailing list?

My response--
It's a lovely thought. She's very powerful and dominates both our organisation
and
her boyfriend in a very feminine way. Her determination and strength of will is

incredible. I have a convenient excuse though. She doesn't have access to the
Net
yet.


My original message--
She would like to see a 50/50 split, which see thinks gives the optimal
working environment and mix of talents. She is therefore happy when we employ
a new man.

Jet's reply--
Perhaps, she could be convinced that an all-woman company may actually be more
interesting and profitable. ;)

My response--
Except for a few male underlings to do the dirty work perhaps?


My first comment--
However, and this is the crux, both my boss and I always select the best
person for the job, whoever it may be. I don't try to push the claims of a
woman, if I don't believe she's the best candidate. Even men need to earn a
living after all.

Jet's response--
As you work for someone who appears to be powerful in her own right, perhaps you
are already doing things in the way you should be.

My reply--
Most of all I enjoy boosting the confidence of the young women in the team. To
help them
grow, prosper and feel more powerful is the most incredibly rewarding
experience.

Jet's comment--
Consider your options? Are you going to continue to work for her? Could you
start your own company doing the same thing your female boss is doing (being her
competitor) and hire in a way that makes you most comfortable? Could you
somehow convince her that she should not worry about the 50/50 mix, but just
consider hiring the best candidates, and that if those
candidates happen to be women, just to go with them women...?

My reply--
I'm very fulfilled where I am and don't want to move. We're building our
organisation
into something pretty amazing and I wish I could elaborate more.
My boss knows my feelings about recruitment. She's an expert on reading body
language
and I can't hide much from her. We both agree we should always hire the best
candidate.
It's only a matter of how we react about the gender of the successful person.

Please don't think she's anti-female in any way, quite the opposite, but she
prefers a
gender mix in the workplace.

I suppose the big variable is how we decide on the best candidate. What biases
and preconceptions do we bring to bear? In my case, a woman has a head start
because I am in awe of female wisdom.

I hope my answers are helpful

Jon



___________________________________________________________________ Questions
and comments should be sent to listmasterenaissoft.com. For a list and
description of supported mailing list commands, send mail to
femsupremacy-requestenaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 00:19:35 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-Id: <199606152219.AAA15967@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 15 Jun 96 18:07:21 EDT, Jon Woolven wrote:

Jet's reply--
Why don't you give her the address for the femsupremacy mailing list?

My response--
It's a lovely thought. She's very powerful and dominates both our organisation
and
her boyfriend in a very feminine way. Her determination and strength of will is

incredible. I have a convenient excuse though. She doesn't have access to the
Net
yet.

Does she have a computer in her home? Then getting internet access to gain
access to this list seems to me to be as good a reason as any :).

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:18:19 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Word Macro Virus
Message-Id: <199606160013.AAA11778@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

The Microsoft version of the Word Macro killer can be found at:

http://www.microsoft.com/kb/softlib/mslfiles/wd1215.exe

Regards, David.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:07:11 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Message-Id: <199606160907.LAA03687@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Found on alt.women.supremacy:

From: peechi@bitteford.com (peechi)
Newsgroups: alt.women.supremacy
Subject: Web sites for Women
Date: 6 Jun 1996 12:53:15 GMT

Here are some more websites designed especailly for Women.

http://www.ion.com.au/yoni/yonititle.html (my favorite)

Thank you for the urls.This one really is a great collection of very
informative pages about all aspects of womankind.
Divinity! :)

There is so much I dont know about women and their hidden secrets of life.
I enjoyed surfing, reading and wondering in this pages.

It is a sunny beautiful day and i just wanted to say how wonderfullllll
you women are.

Thanks for listening.


Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:49:27 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Message-ID: <31C43B17.2EB4@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

WE are WONDER-FULL aren't we
Patricia

Bernd wrote:

Found on alt.women.supremacy:

From: peechi@bitteford.com (peechi)
Newsgroups: alt.women.supremacy
Subject: Web sites for Women
Date: 6 Jun 1996 12:53:15 GMT

Here are some more websites designed especailly for Women.

http://www.ion.com.au/yoni/yonititle.html (my favorite)

Thank you for the urls.This one really is a great collection of very
informative pages about all aspects of womankind.
Divinity! :)

There is so much I dont know about women and their hidden secrets of life.
I enjoyed surfing, reading and wondering in this pages.

It is a sunny beautiful day and i just wanted to say how wonderfullllll
you women are.

Thanks for listening.


Bernd

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

--
MZê

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 06:22:38 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Fem. suprem."
Subject: Reversed roles.
Message-Id: <199606170422.GAA03238@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I just saw a short feature in the morning news about a Swedish man (Tore
Gustafson) married to an American woman (Lisa). They're living in Felton, CA.
Lisa works as a prosecutor, while Tore is a house-husband, taking care of the
house, garden, household and children.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 02:58:40 -0400
From: RicRalph@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-ID: <960617025839_136484940@emout13.mail.aol.com

Patricia wrote:
The idea that women, african americans and others..are, or have geen given
jobs they are not qualified for because of their gender or race is insulting.

I sure agree, Patricia. I started a transportation company as an insurance
policy for me and folks like me back in 1972... Got out of the war (served in
England, Turkey, Korea and Viet Nam)-- was angry and said screw the world...
For the first five years or so we were ex GI's on a mission... probably to
regain a sense of our self esteem. The war and GI's wern't very popular
then.

Many of the GI's healed and went on. Some of us are still here. Over the
years our company has evolved into an organization that tries to create
oppertunities for good people to be whatever they can or want to be. There
are about 1300 of us now led by five women and four men (including myself).
The fact is we beat the pants off of all of our competition-- because we are
the best! And we're the best because we represent the best talent our
society has to offer.

We all work, love and play hard-- because we want to-- and because we like
what we do. Folks in our industry say we are an anomaly. Perhaps. We don't
care. Yet we are proud to be leaders of the "Changing Attitudes" in our part
of the world. Our God/Goddess created all of us equal, so here we are. The
choices we all have to make is how to be equal with each other everyday...

And for all the things that are important to me, Womanhood is the superior
gender...

Regards, Ralph

PS Happy Birthday, Patricia (a few days late).
I turned 51 back in November. Welcome to the club. This really is a great
time of life!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:55:08 -0500
From: Peter Sage
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-ID: <31C59BFC.2A9A@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jon Woolven wrote:

Original message:

To the Matriarchs, the petition of slave 49442 humbly sheweth that it (that is
what my current Mistress calls me) is confused. i was disrespectful to my
original Mistress and She released me to another Mistress for intensive
obedience training. my original Mistress said that my servitude to my new
Mistress had to be by mutual consent but my current Mistress seems to believe
that i have no rights or limits. Also, my original Mistress told me that She
could take me back some day but my current Mistress wants me to be Her property
forever. my original Mistress is kind to me and She has told me to come to Her
for advice. i am confused about who really owns me. slave 49442

i realize this is a very "charged" topic, but i feel i should jump in
and offer my two cents. BTW, my name is peter, and i have been lurking
for about two months. i'm pretty new to BDSM, and subscribing to this
mailing list has been educational.

FWIW, i can't help but think that Mistress Two may be playing a "mind
game" with slave 49442 as part of his obedience training; Army Drill
Sergeants do something very similar to trainees in Basic Training.
At any rate, it doesn't sound consentual, and consent is one of the
cornerstones of the BDSM community (but not of the Army).

Just MHO, respectfully submitted ;)

peter

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:06:26 -0500
From: Peter Sage
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: BDSM Emblem
Message-ID: <31C59EA2.1628@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There is a web page (http://www.wizvax.net/multics/dspin.html) that
has some info about what it calls the "BDSM emblem." I have been told
by a local jeweler (of all people) that it's also called the "chaos
wheel," and I have seen a design very similar to it in the departmental
"seal" of the NC Division of Highways! (Is it any coincidence our
highways are always under construction?) Does anyone else have any
additional info about this emblem?

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #109
************************************************

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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:
RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Re: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Monogomy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:36:58 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
CC: "SubMiss"
Subject: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Message-Id: <199608021936.TAA28844@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:23:08 -0800
To: telstar@wired.com
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin--)
Subject: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress


Free speech isn't only for those with dangerous ideas; privacy isn't just
for suspected criminals.

As Internet users, we all have a stake in standing up for free speech *and*
privacy.

With your indulgence, I'm passing along an important alert regarding
several telecommunications surveillance proposals that Congress may
adopt... perhaps as soon as FRIDAY.

If you can, please call Congress on Friday to insist that our legislators
carefully consider the privacy implivations of any proposal to expland the
FBI's wiretap authority. Your call can make a very big difference.

Full details follow below.

Work the network!

--Todd Lappin--
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine


======================================================================
____ _____ ____ ___ _ _____ ____ _____
| _ \| ____| _ \ / _ \| | | ____| _ \_ _| CONGRESS RUSHING TO
| |_) | _| | | | | | |_| | | | _| | |_) || | ENACT SURVEILLANCE
| _ <| |___| |_| | | _ | |___| |___| _ < | | LEGISLATION. CALL
|_| \_\_____|____/ |_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| CONGRESS NOW! 8/1/96

REPOST THIS ALERT WHERE APPROPRIATE
DO NOT REDISTRIBUTE AFTER AUGUST 7, 1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Table of contents
Introduction
What you can do now
Background
Participating organizations
----------------------------------------------------------------------
INTRODUCTION

Late Wednesday, Congress and the Clinton Administration reached a
preliminary agreement on a sweeping new surveillance initiative. The
President and several Congressional leaders are pushing for a vote on the
measure BEFORE CONGRESS RECESSES ON AUGUST 2.

If enacted, parts of the proposal would dramatically impact privacy and
security on the Internet and other advanced communications technologies.

Of particular concern are provisions which:

1. Allow law enforcement to wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to
48 hours WITHOUT obtaining a court order.

2. Provide funding for the Digital Telephony Proposal without any public
accountability over how the FBI spends the funds

Other provisions are also circulating that would:

3. Impose new restrictions on encryption technologies

4. Criminalize the distribution of 'bomb-making' information on
the Internet that is legal in print.

Congress needs to hear from you. Congress will rush through the passage
of massive new surveillance plans with privacy risks unless you
show them there is support for slow, deliberate, reasoned thought on
the issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

CALL YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS IMMEDIATELY
NO LATER THAN FRIDAY (8/2/96)

Please contact as many elected officials on the list below as you can.
Urge them to "go slow" and carefully consider the impact these
surveillance proposals will have on the privacy and security of
Internet users.

Tell them while you appreciate their concern about combating terrorism,
the measures being proposed have many potential side effects which must be
carefully considered.

If you are at a loss for words, use the following sample communique:

SAMPLE COMMUNIQUE

Dear _________,

Please do not rush the passage of counter terrorism legislation;
I'm concerned that Congress is rushing without carefully
considering the implications of privacy. I'm from

Thanks,
You should call the following members of Congress because they
are steering this legislation and need to know there is support
for slow, deliberate, thoughtful consideration of this issue.
Some of thee members *have publicly expressed reservations* about this
legislation, and we should support them in their efforts.

Senate members:

P ST Name and Address Phone Fax
= == ======================== ============== ==============
R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262
D DE Biden Jr., Joseph R. 1-202-224-5042 1-202-224-0139
D SD Daschle, Thomas A. 1-202-224-2321 1-202-224-2047
R UT Hatch, Orrin G. 1-202-224-5251 1-202-224-6331
R PA Specter, Arlen 1-202-224-4254 1-717-782-4920
D VT Leahy, Patrick J. 1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595

House members:

Dist ST Name, Address, and Party Phone Fax
==== == ======================== ============== ==============
6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R) 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656
3 MO Gephardt, Richard A. (D) 1-202-225-2671 1-202-225-7452
6 IL Hyde, Henry J. (R) 1-202-225-4561 1-202-226-1240
14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D) 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072

President William Clinton:
White House Comment Line: 1-202-456-1414

3. If you get a response, take a moment and send mail to vtw@vtw.org
with "feedback" in the subject line.

$ Mail vtw@vtw.org
Subject: my feedback from calling Congress
They said they're not going to pass most of Clinton's package,
because it upsets the delicate balance between law enforcement and
the public.
^D
Mail sent!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BACKGROUND

Among other things, the law enforcement proposals circulating on Capitol
Hill include provisions which:

o WIRETAPPING WITHOUT COURT ORDER ALLOWED FOR 48 HOURS

Congress and the President have already agreed to provisions which
would dramatically expand law enforcement surveillance authority. Both
of these provisions were proposed by the President as part of the 1995
counter-terrorism legislation, but were dropped from the final bill
after Republicans and civil liberties advocates objected.

The current proposal would expand law enforcement surveillance
authority in two ways:

- Emergency 48 Hour Wiretap Authority: Current law requires law
enforcement officials to get the affirmative consent of a judge
before installing a wiretap.

The current proposal would expand law enforcement authority to
wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to 48 hours before obtaining a
court order, limiting a critical 4th amendment safeguard.

- Multi-Point "Roving" Wiretaps: Current law allows law enforcement to
tap only specific LOCATIONS (i.e., a telephone number). In certain
very limited circumstances, law enforcement can tap a specific
INDIVIDUAL if it can be shown to a judge that the suspect is moving
from place to place with the specific intent of thwarting law
enforcement.

The current proposal would expand this so-called "roving" wiretap
authority by making it much easier for law enforcement to tap specific
INDIVIDUALS as opposed to specific physical locations. This change
would dramatically effect the balance between 4th Amendment privacy
rights and public safety which has existed for nearly 30 years, and
should not be enacted without careful consideration of the
implications.

o FUNDING FOR DIGITAL TELEPHONY WITHOUT PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY

The Administration and Congress are seeking funding to implement the
Digital Telephony Law in a way which eliminates any opportunity for
public oversight of law enforcement surveillance ability.

The controversial law, known officially as the Communications
Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), granted the FBI new
authority to influence the design of telecommunications networks. At
the same time, the law provided substantial public oversight over the
FBI's surveillance ability by requiring the FBI to state, on the
public record, what its surveillance needs are.

The FBI has faced stiff resistance from civil liberties groups and some
members of Congress and has not yet been able to obtain funding to
implement the requirements of the law.

As part of the current proposal, the FBI is seeking a mechanism which
will provide funding for CALEA in a way which skirts the public
oversight provisions of the law. This is an extremely troubling move
by law enforcement which, if enacted, would allow law enforcement
essentially unlimited authority to influence the design of
telecommunications networks without any accountability.

Other provisions which could show up in legislation in the next 72 hours are:

o BOMB MAKING MATERIAL ON THE INTERNET

In the wake of the recent public concern about terrorism, Senators
Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joseph Biden (D-DE) have renewed their
efforts to pass legislation to restrict the availability of 'bomb-
making' information on the Internet.

The Feinstein/Biden amendment was added to the Senate Defense
Appropriations bill (S. 1762) in early July, and is not currently part
of the new law enforcement initiative. However, the amendment poses a
serious threat to chill the the free flow of information on the
Internet.

o NEW RESTRICTIONS ON ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGIES:

While no specific legislation has been proposed, the Clinton
Administration has circulated an outline to Congress which states:

"We will seek legislation to strengthen our ability to
prevent terrorists from coming into the possession of the technology
to encrypt their communications and data so that they are beyond the
reach of law enforcement."

This statement marks the first time that the Administration has
suggested legislation to restrict encryption. This is especially
troubling because it comes at a time of growing Congressional support
for legislation to promote privacy and security tools for the Net.
Of even more concern, the Administration is clearly attempting to use
the recent suspected terrorist incidents to push for a new and more
restrictive encryption policy.

If the Administration succeeds in passing new restrictions on
encryption as part of the new surveillance legislation, the future
of the Internet as a secure and trusted platform for commerce and
private communication will be threatened.

Some or all of these provisions may be included in a package voted
on by both houses by August 3rd. It is not clear what a final bill
will look like, and some of these provisions may not be considered by
Congress until later this summer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS

The following organizations all urge you to take this action to combat the
surveillance initiatives. Check their Web pages for more background
information on these issues.

American Civil Liberties Union (http://www.aclu.org)
American Communication Association
Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org)
Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org)
EF-Austin (http://www.efa.org)
Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org)
Feminists for Free Expression
National Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org)
National Writers Union (http://www.nwu.org/nwu/)
People For the American Way (http://www.pfaw.org)
Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org)
Wired Ventures Ltd. (http://www.hotwired.com)
======================================================================


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 14:55:05 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Message-ID: <32027939.7B2B@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

you can go to
http://www.mainartery.com/GOVERNMENT

to find the email address of your representative or senator in
Washington D.C. just click on e-mail addresses and it will bring you to
email address site.
Patricia
just another service brought to you by Mainartery


Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:23:08 -0800
To: telstar@wired.com
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin--)
Subject: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress

Free speech isn't only for those with dangerous ideas; privacy isn't just
for suspected criminals.

As Internet users, we all have a stake in standing up for free speech *and*
privacy.

With your indulgence, I'm passing along an important alert regarding
several telecommunications surveillance proposals that Congress may
adopt... perhaps as soon as FRIDAY.

If you can, please call Congress on Friday to insist that our legislators
carefully consider the privacy implivations of any proposal to expland the
FBI's wiretap authority. Your call can make a very big difference.

Full details follow below.

Work the network!

--Todd Lappin--
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine

======================================================================
____ _____ ____ ___ _ _____ ____ _____
| _ \| ____| _ \ / _ \| | | ____| _ \_ _| CONGRESS RUSHING TO
| |_) | _| | | | | | |_| | | | _| | |_) || | ENACT SURVEILLANCE
| _ <| |___| |_| | | _ | |___| |___| _ < | | LEGISLATION. CALL
|_| \_\_____|____/ |_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| CONGRESS NOW! 8/1/96

REPOST THIS ALERT WHERE APPROPRIATE
DO NOT REDISTRIBUTE AFTER AUGUST 7, 1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Table of contents
Introduction
What you can do now
Background
Participating organizations
----------------------------------------------------------------------
INTRODUCTION

Late Wednesday, Congress and the Clinton Administration reached a
preliminary agreement on a sweeping new surveillance initiative. The
President and several Congressional leaders are pushing for a vote on the
measure BEFORE CONGRESS RECESSES ON AUGUST 2.

If enacted, parts of the proposal would dramatically impact privacy and
security on the Internet and other advanced communications technologies.

Of particular concern are provisions which:

1. Allow law enforcement to wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to
48 hours WITHOUT obtaining a court order.

2. Provide funding for the Digital Telephony Proposal without any public
accountability over how the FBI spends the funds

Other provisions are also circulating that would:

3. Impose new restrictions on encryption technologies

4. Criminalize the distribution of 'bomb-making' information on
the Internet that is legal in print.

Congress needs to hear from you. Congress will rush through the passage
of massive new surveillance plans with privacy risks unless you
show them there is support for slow, deliberate, reasoned thought on
the issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

CALL YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS IMMEDIATELY
NO LATER THAN FRIDAY (8/2/96)

Please contact as many elected officials on the list below as you can.
Urge them to "go slow" and carefully consider the impact these
surveillance proposals will have on the privacy and security of
Internet users.

Tell them while you appreciate their concern about combating terrorism,
the measures being proposed have many potential side effects which must be
carefully considered.

If you are at a loss for words, use the following sample communique:

SAMPLE COMMUNIQUE

Dear _________,

Please do not rush the passage of counter terrorism legislation;
I'm concerned that Congress is rushing without carefully
considering the implications of privacy. I'm from

Thanks,
You should call the following members of Congress because they
are steering this legislation and need to know there is support
for slow, deliberate, thoughtful consideration of this issue.
Some of thee members *have publicly expressed reservations* about this
legislation, and we should support them in their efforts.

Senate members:

P ST Name and Address Phone Fax
= == ======================== ============== ==============
R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262
D DE Biden Jr., Joseph R. 1-202-224-5042 1-202-224-0139
D SD Daschle, Thomas A. 1-202-224-2321 1-202-224-2047
R UT Hatch, Orrin G. 1-202-224-5251 1-202-224-6331
R PA Specter, Arlen 1-202-224-4254 1-717-782-4920
D VT Leahy, Patrick J. 1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595

House members:

Dist ST Name, Address, and Party Phone Fax
==== == ======================== ============== ==============
6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R) 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656
3 MO Gephardt, Richard A. (D) 1-202-225-2671 1-202-225-7452
6 IL Hyde, Henry J. (R) 1-202-225-4561 1-202-226-1240
14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D) 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072

President William Clinton:
White House Comment Line: 1-202-456-1414

3. If you get a response, take a moment and send mail to vtw@vtw.org
with "feedback" in the subject line.

$ Mail vtw@vtw.org
Subject: my feedback from calling Congress
They said they're not going to pass most of Clinton's package,
because it upsets the delicate balance between law enforcement and
the public.
^D
Mail sent!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BACKGROUND

Among other things, the law enforcement proposals circulating on Capitol
Hill include provisions which:

o WIRETAPPING WITHOUT COURT ORDER ALLOWED FOR 48 HOURS

Congress and the President have already agreed to provisions which
would dramatically expand law enforcement surveillance authority. Both
of these provisions were proposed by the President as part of the 1995
counter-terrorism legislation, but were dropped from the final bill
after Republicans and civil liberties advocates objected.

The current proposal would expand law enforcement surveillance
authority in two ways:

- Emergency 48 Hour Wiretap Authority: Current law requires law
enforcement officials to get the affirmative consent of a judge
before installing a wiretap.

The current proposal would expand law enforcement authority to
wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to 48 hours before obtaining a
court order, limiting a critical 4th amendment safeguard.

- Multi-Point "Roving" Wiretaps: Current law allows law enforcement to
tap only specific LOCATIONS (i.e., a telephone number). In certain
very limited circumstances, law enforcement can tap a specific
INDIVIDUAL if it can be shown to a judge that the suspect is moving
from place to place with the specific intent of thwarting law
enforcement.

The current proposal would expand this so-called "roving" wiretap
authority by making it much easier for law enforcement to tap specific
INDIVIDUALS as opposed to specific physical locations. This change
would dramatically effect the balance between 4th Amendment privacy
rights and public safety which has existed for nearly 30 years, and
should not be enacted without careful consideration of the
implications.

o FUNDING FOR DIGITAL TELEPHONY WITHOUT PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY

The Administration and Congress are seeking funding to implement the
Digital Telephony Law in a way which eliminates any opportunity for
public oversight of law enforcement surveillance ability.

The controversial law, known officially as the Communications
Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), granted the FBI new
authority to influence the design of telecommunications networks. At
the same time, the law provided substantial public oversight over the
FBI's surveillance ability by requiring the FBI to state, on the
public record, what its surveillance needs are.

The FBI has faced stiff resistance from civil liberties groups and some
members of Congress and has not yet been able to obtain funding to
implement the requirements of the law.

As part of the current proposal, the FBI is seeking a mechanism which
will provide funding for CALEA in a way which skirts the public
oversight provisions of the law. This is an extremely troubling move
by law enforcement which, if enacted, would allow law enforcement
essentially unlimited authority to influence the design of
telecommunications networks without any accountability.

Other provisions which could show up in legislation in the next 72 hours are:

o BOMB MAKING MATERIAL ON THE INTERNET

In the wake of the recent public concern about terrorism, Senators
Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joseph Biden (D-DE) have renewed their
efforts to pass legislation to restrict the availability of 'bomb-
making' information on the Internet.

The Feinstein/Biden amendment was added to the Senate Defense
Appropriations bill (S. 1762) in early July, and is not currently part
of the new law enforcement initiative. However, the amendment poses a
serious threat to chill the the free flow of information on the
Internet.

o NEW RESTRICTIONS ON ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGIES:

While no specific legislation has been proposed, the Clinton
Administration has circulated an outline to Congress which states:

"We will seek legislation to strengthen our ability to
prevent terrorists from coming into the possession of the technology
to encrypt their communications and data so that they are beyond the
reach of law enforcement."

This statement marks the first time that the Administration has
suggested legislation to restrict encryption. This is especially
troubling because it comes at a time of growing Congressional support
for legislation to promote privacy and security tools for the Net.
Of even more concern, the Administration is clearly attempting to use
the recent suspected terrorist incidents to push for a new and more
restrictive encryption policy.

If the Administration succeeds in passing new restrictions on
encryption as part of the new surveillance legislation, the future
of the Internet as a secure and trusted platform for commerce and
private communication will be threatened.

Some or all of these provisions may be included in a package voted
on by both houses by August 3rd. It is not clear what a final bill
will look like, and some of these provisions may not be considered by
Congress until later this summer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS

The following organizations all urge you to take this action to combat the
surveillance initiatives. Check their Web pages for more background
information on these issues.

American Civil Liberties Union (http://www.aclu.org)
American Communication Association
Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org)
Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org)
EF-Austin (http://www.efa.org)
Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org)
Feminists for Free Expression
National Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org)
National Writers Union (http://www.nwu.org/nwu/)
People For the American Way (http://www.pfaw.org)
Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org)
Wired Ventures Ltd. (http://www.hotwired.com)
======================================================================

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 20:26:35 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
CC: Laura Goodwin
Subject: Monogomy
Message-ID: <3201756B.6893@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

when they run against the grain of what society
officially approves, they keep hidden.
The question is not what people will do, but what they
suffer if caught, what they can get away with without penalty.
What lengths does one, and should one go to, for the sake of a perfectly tailored erotic arrangement?

Society tends to always move in the direction the majority benefits from.
The propagation of the race, is a very strong biological urge. Society
usually tries to protect the family relationship at all costs, and
anything perceived as threatening that is crushed. However, there are
many examples, like the witch burning in New England, where the majority
will yield to church or state power, even though they don't agree, simply
to go along, as happened in Nazi Germany.
Today, anything that is considered a threat to marriage is voted down,
i.e., same sex marriages. Morality changes in societies. Maybe that's
why the ten commandments were written on stone, instead of paper so we
couldn't change them? They're not the ten "suggestions" are they?
Many things are hidden now that will all be revealed someday (what you
whisper in secret shall be shouted from the housetop). As a male who
lived a very self indulgent dishonest life for many years, I can only say
hiding things from your mate can only cause sorrow and pain. It robs you
of that closeness spiritually as well as physically, that you need to
reach the place of peace and ultimate sexual fulfillment.
You never really "get away" with anything. You always know what you've
done and have to look in the mirror. Sadly, lying to ourselves is a
national pastime. Honesty is so hard to achieve, but we all must strive
to be more real and honest, not just with partners, but more importantly,
with ourselves. How much broken hearted wreckage is strewn across the
landscape of our souls and the souls of our lovers, for the sake of a
momentary thrill. What lengths? Some will go to any length. Healthy?
I doubt it.
Each person must walk their own path. There are millions of men and
many more millions of women who are totally monogamous and loyal to one
person. They are seldom mentioned, but they're there. After years of
being a lair and a cheat, I decided that was not the kind of man I wanted
to be. I wanted a deeper relationship with my wife, and more
importantly, a more honest relationship with myself. With all sincerity,
I have never been happier than I am right now. I only wish I would have
learned what far more women know than men, that there are great benefits
to being loyal and committed to one person, and there are very deep
emotions, feelings and spiritual truths to be learned and experienced
from that kind of bonding. All of woman kind are my friends, and deserve
respect and honesty. Being a sexual predator is exciting, but
fulfilling? Not for me, not anymore. I wanted to change, and be a
better man than one who sees women in only one or two self serving
ways. At time it has been a painful journey, but the end result will be
worth it. The human race needs more "humans." Monogamy is awesome, it
works, and I have not been one of it's shining examples, but I'm working
on it.

Peace,

Spirit Wind

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #176
************************************************

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From: femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 177

Today's Topics:
Unidentified subject!
hello everybody!
Re: hello everybody!
help
Re: help
Re: help
Re: Spirit etc: Dee-Ann ...
Re: hello everybody! ...on becoming a Goddess
uses for men
Re: uses for men
Welcome to the list (Re: hello everybody!)
Re: help
Re: help
Web pages. (Was: Re: help)
Re: uses for men
Re: uses for men
Re: uses for men

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 17:01:53 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960803210153.00683650@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Spirit wind wrote:

Society tends to always move in the direction the majority benefits from.

Oh! If only that were true! Define *society*.

The propagation of the race, is a very strong biological urge. Society
usually tries to protect the family relationship at all costs, and
anything perceived as threatening that is crushed.

Yeah, but *define family*. I believe it's obvious that propagation and
monogamy are separable. I believe that non-monogamous arrangements might
favor propagation and survival better than the monogamous model. I wouldn't
take it as a given that monogamy is the best marriage arrangement, nor the
best type of family for the upbringing of children.

Many things are hidden now that will all be revealed someday (what you
whisper in secret shall be shouted from the housetop). As a male who
lived a very self indulgent dishonest life for many years, I can only say
hiding things from your mate can only cause sorrow and pain.

I agree, which is why my husband and I have a very happy, honest,
non-monogamous marriage.

All of woman kind are my friends, and deserve
respect and honesty. Being a sexual predator is exciting, but
fulfilling? Not for me, not anymore.

Fine, but FYI, many non-monogamist polyamorists have deep love and respect
for their partners. Polyamory does not equal thrill-seeking sexual
predation, necessarily.

Speaking of monogamy, if it works for you, fine. Unfortunately, the
monogamous marriage has been a prison for women, that was in most cases not
freely chosen but forced upon us. The average woman has ten times the
sexual stamina of the average man, and women give up more than men do to
limit themselves to one partner.

As for propagation, the world is overcrowded and we should give it a rest
already. In our modern world, we gotta emphasize the non-procreative
benefits of love, pleasure, and social bonding. I say every mother needs at
least 2 husbands just to make ends meet anymore! ;) But why stop there? If
a woman has 4 husbands all contributing to the common family welfare, the
children that result will enjoy many benefits! The woman will get all the
sex she wants, the kids will have a huge extended family, the husbands will
have a lighter duty load per person, and who says some of those husbands
couldn't be women? I say Gay and multiple marriages should be perfectly
legal and blessed by the church! My church blesses them already! (We are
still working on the legal part). :)

Oh, brave new world...don't wait for it like it's a bus!
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 17:26:15 -0400
From: Mslv4F@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: hello everybody!
Message-ID: <960803172614_171074526@emout18.mail.aol.com

A warm hello to everybody!

Since I am a new subscriber to the list, I thought I would take the
opportunity to express how delighted I am to encounter a resource seriously
dedicated to topics relating to Female Supremacy. I come here as a student,
eager to learn and be enlightened about a topic which, at the risk of
sounding trite, is very important to me and central to my belief system. It
is my hope that the discussions here will inform me and help me develop as a
person, and that I can make a meaningful contribution. I so look forward to
participating here.

For purposes of refernce, I am a male, 30 years old, and believe firmly in
the biological and intellectual veracity of Female Supremacy. I would
welcome hearing from anybody that might wish to share thoughts on the
subject.

Thanks!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 17:42:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello everybody!
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 3 Aug 1996 Mslv4F@aol.com wrote:

A warm hello to everybody!

Mslv4F,

Welcome to the list, and thank you for your intelligent and courteous
introduction. This *is* an excellent place for discussion, and I look
forward to your contributions.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 21:15:31 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: help
Message-ID: <320423E3.2BC4@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

well hello new person...nice entrance.

gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

I will get over the personal part of this really easy...but the attack
on professional work...jolted me badly....and I know many of you would
not fool me or just be polite....I trust so many of you....

so thanks in advance for going and peeking and being honest with me
Patricia
http://www.mainartery.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 21:39:08 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-ID: <32040D4C.A2@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noble wrote:
that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

Patricia
http://www.mainartery.comPatricia,
I find your site easy to navigate, entertaining, informative and
well laid out. Ok, a couple of "under construction" pages but that just
shows growth. Your use of Java is tasteful and understated (the confused
simian is quite amusing). As I have written several pages for our
intranet at work, I feel qualified to offer you a positive critique. The
only adjustment from my viewpoint would be to move the "for sale" items
to their own page. Is it possible your "detractor" has part ownership
in the house of shame? ;-) Many sites make extensive use of backdrops,
frames and applets but provide little content. This IMHO is just a waste
of bandwidth. Your creation is quite pleasing to the eye and
informative. Worry not, your work is very professional.

Roland
-------
Father: I think our son got all his brains from me!
Mother: Probably, I still have all mine.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 20:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-Id: <199608040300.UAA23980@iberia.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:15 PM 8/3/96 -0700, you wrote:
well hello new person...nice entrance.

gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web.
Patricia
http://www.mainartery.com

Hello Patricia,

I looked. There were things I liked, and things I didn't like as well, but
nothing I could see that would fit the description "amateurish," nor
anything unprofessional.

The design seemed tasteful, and it worked well. I could see how the
regular geometry of the graphics and text based menu might strike some as
uninteresting.
Personally I see that as more of an issue of personal preference, and
intent, rather than professionalism. I've seen many confusing, cluttered
layouts elsewhere that were barely functional. I like the scripts (the
monkey for example). Bottom line of my opinion: it was ok; depends on what
effect you were trying for, and what the expectations were of the one doing
the criticizing. I don't think there are any real standards in web page
design any more than there are standards in advertising elsewhere ...
depends on what the customer wants.

Hope my opinion is of help to you.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 20:01:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Spirit etc: Dee-Ann ...
Message-Id: <199608040301.UAA24040@iberia.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:26 PM 7/30/96 -0700, you wrote:
Coyote Sings wrote:

I'm glad you've asked. I said it was, and ended up as
Dee's Tantric archives-but-no-sex slave for the duration.
Duration of what I'm not sure.

That's what you get for speaking up. You should know better. ;)

----
I hope Coyote hasn't become lost in the labyrinth's of the internet
or enslaved by evil mulberry specters.
----
But thank you for the post, zbobz

Ditto...I'll get to it in a little while. I'm kind of busy at the
moment, and that was a long sucker!

----
Nah, it's not so long ... it only seems long on account of being
said in such a tedious way.

Want the short version? What it says is that the reality of the
Goddess can be understood and appreciated intellectually in addition
to being felt emotionally.

Important for some folks (like me, from the planet of France) but not
necessarily for everybody.
----

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 01:03:41 -0400
From: Mailena@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: hello everybody! ...on becoming a Goddess
Message-ID: <960804010341_171283443@emout12.mail.aol.com

In a message dated 96-08-03 17:29:22 EDT, you write:

<< For purposes of refernce, I am a male, 30 years old, and believe firmly in
the biological and intellectual veracity of Female Supremacy. I would
welcome hearing from anybody that might wish to share thoughts on the
subject.


Have you ever considered transforming yourself into a Goddess?

Mailena

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 16:55:08 +0000
From: 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: uses for men
Message-ID: <77F1F4C62E8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk

I would like to respond to the recent letter about 10 uses for unruly males,
which I cannot at the moment find. Not all men are abusive, macho jerks.
In fact, some of us who are not have been given the least respect by women
precisely because we are not aggressive, macho, or built like Hercules. How
about a list of uses for us ? Here is my view of 10 things that I'm good
for:

1.) I am capable of giving a woman a great deal of love and emotional
support.

2.) Helping to pay the bills. Unlike some who want to serve partly because
they are too incompetent, lazy or addicted to hold down a job, I have never
had any problems staying employed.

3) Companionship. No REAL human being is 100% dominant or superior, or
submissive or inferior. A partner is someone you have to be able to enjoy
life with. An evening out, a holiday, or a walk in the country. Even if
later on you make him kiss your feet while you assign him his chores for the
next day.

4.) Teaching. I am highly educated and talented. Most people could learn a
lot from me, and I would learn from them if I could.

5.) I would happily do the housework and run errands in order to please my
lady.

6.) On testimony of a number of ladies, I give excellent foot massages.

7. I would like to serve my lady breakfast in bed.

8. Hugging, cuddling and caressing. Every normal human needs affection.

9. Taking out frustrations on after a tough day. People often effectively
use things like punching dolls, martial arts, and other forms of physical
exercise to release frustration. As I watch the Olympics, it is obvious
that most of the female athletes I see could easily beat me up if they
wanted too. As long as they didn't break any bones or anything, I would
not mind if a few of them did.

10. As a sex slave.

As Rosie O'Donnell said in a movie about S&M, I think it was called Eden or
something, alot of men are jerks, " AND IF WE DON'T START APPRECIATING THE
GOOD ONES, THERE WON'T BE ANY LEFT." And while we are on the subject, a lot
of women are jerks as well.

Sign me,

Unappreciated

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 12:17:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-Id: <199608041617.MAA10030@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:55 PM 8/4/96 +0000, 9521295 wrote:
I would like to respond to the recent letter about 10 uses for unruly males,
which I cannot at the moment find. Not all men are abusive, macho jerks.
In fact, some of us who are not have been given the least respect by women
precisely because we are not aggressive, macho, or built like Hercules.

I think in a superficial way this may be true, although I suspect as women
mature and gain life experience they come to respect and value the caring
quiet types. But I'm still waiting to see if this is actually true.
Certainly aggression and other stereotypical "male" traits have their place
in society as long as they are properly channeled (business world, sports,
etc) and tempered with typically "female" traits such as empathy, teamwork,
sensitivity, etc.

How about a list of uses for us ? Here is my view of 10 things that I'm good
for:

1.) I am capable of giving a woman a great deal of love and emotional
support.

That certainly is #1 in my book also. Be aware however that some people are
unable to accept love due to past experiences. That's the most frustrating
part for me in my search for a partner.

2.) Helping to pay the bills. Unlike some who want to serve partly because
they are too incompetent, lazy or addicted to hold down a job, I have never
had any problems staying employed.

Yep. Competence, good self-esteem and self-worth are important traits, the
more we can offer, the greater our gift is valued.

3) Companionship. No REAL human being is 100% dominant or superior, or
submissive or inferior. A partner is someone you have to be able to enjoy
life with. An evening out, a holiday, or a walk in the country. Even if
later on you make him kiss your feet while you assign him his chores for the
next day.

Well, some FAKE ones like to think they are ;) But seriously, without
companionship and friendship a relationship has a shaky foundation.

8. Hugging, cuddling and caressing. Every normal human needs affection.

I agree. Modern society has produced a lot of touch-starved people, so many
now live alone and/or far from their family and friends.

9. Taking out frustrations on after a tough day. People often effectively
use things like punching dolls, martial arts, and other forms of physical
exercise to release frustration. As I watch the Olympics, it is obvious
that most of the female athletes I see could easily beat me up if they
wanted too. As long as they didn't break any bones or anything, I would
not mind if a few of them did.

I disagree. Take the frustration and violence out on a punching bag, not
another human being. IMHO domination and submission should be an act of
love, not abuse.

As Rosie O'Donnell said in a movie about S&M, I think it was called Eden or
something, alot of men are jerks, " AND IF WE DON'T START APPRECIATING THE
GOOD ONES, THERE WON'T BE ANY LEFT." And while we are on the subject, a lot
of women are jerks as well.

I think most Ladies on this list appreciate the "good ones", whatever that
means. Everyone will define it differently.

Regards, Paul

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 12:11:37 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Welcome to the list (Re: hello everybody!)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960804161137.0068fa50@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 05:26 PM 8/3/96 -0400, you wrote:
A warm hello to everybody!

Well hello there Mslv4F, I believe I have chatted with you before in AOL's
Chateau, or one of the similar rooms. I have a temp acct. with AOL right
now (MeLaLaura@aol.com) maybe I will see you around.

FYI, I'm married to a slave husband, we are both bisexual and very active in
both the Gay and Leather scenes, both online and in RL (real life).

One of my dearest friends with AOL is DaveRsub, look for him. Anyone he
points out to you is probably true blue also.
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 12:33:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-Id: <199608041633.MAA10797@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:15 PM 8/3/96 -0700, Patricia wrote:
gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

Patricia- I checked out your web page. All in all, I think it is a very
solid effort and yes, professional. There is a lot of content there also,
which is very important. I do have a few ideas however that may make it
even better.

The title banner and links at the top of the main page appear to be a little
cramped. I prefer more white space, but that's just me ;) Maybe some
horizontal lines would help define sections of your pages too. Another
suggestion is to add some graphic background textures (like you have on the
people page). That may spice up things and give the user a more visually
pleasing experience. I've used some textures to good effect (or so I think)
on my personal web page.

Also, something you might want to think about is giving the user a
consistent interface (buttons, links, etc). With a site as large as yours,
folks may get
somewhat lost as the get in deeper and deeper. You may want to consider
using frames (a Netscape HTML extension). I use frames in my professional
web site.

I really do like your site, Patricia, it just needs a little polishing IMHO.
Tell that bozo where to go, he knows not of what he speaks. It's obvious
you have talent and have put a great deal of hard work into your site. It
is not wasted.

Warm Regards, Paul

p.s. just wanted express my support publicly

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 13:19:56 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-ID: <320505EC.4D5C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

hugs Paul
and feeling much stronger this morning
(@) (@)
c
\_____/
Patricia

pgm@servtech.com wrote:

At 09:15 PM 8/3/96 -0700, Patricia wrote:
gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

Patricia- I checked out your web page. All in all, I think it is a very
solid effort and yes, professional. There is a lot of content there also,
which is very important. I do have a few ideas however that may make it
even better.

The title banner and links at the top of the main page appear to be a little
cramped. I prefer more white space, but that's just me ;) Maybe some
horizontal lines would help define sections of your pages too. Another
suggestion is to add some graphic background textures (like you have on the
people page). That may spice up things and give the user a more visually
pleasing experience. I've used some textures to good effect (or so I think)
on my personal web page.

Also, something you might want to think about is giving the user a
consistent interface (buttons, links, etc). With a site as large as yours,
folks may get
somewhat lost as the get in deeper and deeper. You may want to consider
using frames (a Netscape HTML extension). I use frames in my professional
web site.

I really do like your site, Patricia, it just needs a little polishing IMHO.
Tell that bozo where to go, he knows not of what he speaks. It's obvious
you have talent and have put a great deal of hard work into your site. It
is not wasted.

Warm Regards, Paul

p.s. just wanted express my support publicly

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 96 20:52:55 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Web pages. (Was: Re: help)
Message-Id: <199608041851.UAA14198@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sun, 4 Aug 1996 12:33:56 -0400 (EDT), pgm@servtech.com wrote:

somewhat lost as the get in deeper and deeper. You may want to consider
using frames (a Netscape HTML extension). I use frames in my professional
web site.

If you want to produce a professional site for the general public, you
either have to stay away from frames or build both a frame and a
none-frame version. Frames are a proprietary and non-standard feature
conceived by Netscape, and AFAIU it won't ever make it into the official
HTML standard. It is estimated that 20% of the web users don't use
Navigator.

If you're producing for an intranet, you're of course free to use
whatever tags you like as long as they're supported by the web browser
designated by your organization.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 14:28:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-Id: <199608041928.OAA03159@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:55 PM 8/4/96 +0000, 9521295 wrote:
I would like to respond to the recent letter about 10 uses for unruly males,
which I cannot at the moment find. Not all men are abusive, macho jerks.
In fact, some of us who are not have been given the least respect by women
precisely because we are not aggressive, macho, or built like Hercules.


There is a cause-and effect argument here: because some M is not
aggressive, macho, or built like Hercules, some M are not respected by
(any?) women.

Or, put differently, male aggression and body-building cause some women to
respect some men.

I am of the opinion that crudity and laziness are more disgusting than the
absence of aggression or a powerful physique.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 21:25:35 +0000
From: 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID: <783A1434A65@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk

Thank you. I'll try to be less sensitive.

Peace!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 16:31:04 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID: <320532B8.6053@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I believe she was making a joke, why are you all so defensive...would we
be talking to you all if we thought "you" were jerks.
they always accuse feminists of having no sense of humor...
you know how many times women have to put up with those..
all women are good for .. all the time..everywhere.
she did not mean you..unless, of course she was talking about you...
I don't see why you need to rise to the defense of such men...
and am beginning to get a sense of "thou doth protest too much."

and...if that email she wrote is all it takes for you to abandon your
male sensitive ways..then they weren't really that strongly a part of
you were they....too bad, if you give them up....big loss.
Patricia

9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK wrote:

Thank you. I'll try to be less sensitive.

Peace!

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 178

Today's Topics:
Re: uses for men
help
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #175
Web pages
Re: Web pages
Re: uses for men
Re: uses for men
The communism of the 1990s (fwd)
Re: uses for men
Family? etc.(Re: Monogomy)
[Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: renaissoft.com: non-recoverable error)]
Re: uses for men

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 22:23:24 +0000
From: 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID: <78497C50DD3@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk

RE:

I believe she was making a joke,

to a large extent I was too. At least trying to mix humor with expression
of my feelings.

RE:

why are you all so defensive...would we be talking to you all if we thought
"you" were jerks.

You might, Rabbit, you might. That doesn't mean that I think all women do
or that no men do, but I know enough about human nature to know that many
people do exactly that. In fact, I know both men and women who I see
talking to people one minute and telling someone else "I hate his/her guts"
the next.

RE:

they always accuse feminists of having no sense of humor...
you know how many times women have to put up with those..
all women are good for .. all the time..everywhere.
she did not mean you..unless, of course she was talking about you...
I don't see why you need to rise to the defense of such men...
and am beginning to get a sense of "thou doth protest too much."

I merely tried to get another kind of list (one that I like better) out
there, not defend anyone who fits the first description.

and RE:

and...if that email she wrote is all it takes for you to abandon your
male sensitive ways..then they weren't really that strongly a part of
you were they....too bad, if you give them up....big loss.
Patricia

I fear that I am still a sensitive person, and try as I might it is hard to
change that. I try to admit it when I am wrong, and thought I did.


9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK wrote:

Thank you. I'll try to be less sensitive.

Peace!




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 04 Aug 96 17:50:57 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: help
Message-ID: <960804215057_101342.2030_GHW131-1@CompuServe.COM

Patricia wrote :
gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

Ok - so its may not be *arty farty* - so what ! Its a fast loader
(graphics lite - thats good), and there is plenty to read.

As an artist, I have become used to people liking or disliking the things I
do - in the end, go for what YOU think is right. Ignore criticism, it will
cramp your style.

As a professional computer programmer, I admire the way you have learned
the techniques for web page production - it isnt easy - is it !

No one ever masters any computer language totally, so if you see something
you admire on another web page - discover how its done - copy the technique
- and its just a matter of time before you will have more strings to your
web publishing bow than you know what to do with.

I can only reiterate the advice you have already been given, be careful not
to be sucked into using *sooper-dooper* plugins that will only work on a
minority of browsers.

Dennis (t.o.m)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 19:10:01 -0400
From: Sharchi73@aol.com
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #175
Message-ID: <960804191001_171659844@emout07.mail.aol.com

Please take me off this list. Sorry I don't know the proper address to send
this request.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:04:00 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Web pages
Message-ID: <32053A70.6528@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia--

gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

I just looked at your Web page and I think it looks very professional
and very well put together. Everything seems to be in place and looks
terrific. Very well proportioned and very easy to read.

I will get over the personal part of this really easy...but the attack
on professional work...jolted me badly....and I know many of you would
not fool me or just be polite....I trust so many of you....

Don't let this "friend" get to you... It's obvious that this person is
not worth much if he can't be supportive. Friends don't tear down friends.
And if this fool thinks that it is constructive criticism to tear down some-
one, then he better think again. What he did is try to ruin your self-
confidence and self-esteem. You are better than that, Patricia. Please
continue setting up your web pages...

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 20:04:35 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Web pages
Message-ID: <320564C3.577@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

hugs Jet...I am better today..and everyone has been so helpful.
just a momentary glitch.....thanks
Patricia

Jet wrote:

Patricia--

gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

I just looked at your Web page and I think it looks very professional
and very well put together. Everything seems to be in place and looks
terrific. Very well proportioned and very easy to read.

I will get over the personal part of this really easy...but the attack
on professional work...jolted me badly....and I know many of you would
not fool me or just be polite....I trust so many of you....

Don't let this "friend" get to you... It's obvious that this person is
not worth much if he can't be supportive. Friends don't tear down friends.
And if this fool thinks that it is constructive criticism to tear down some-
one, then he better think again. What he did is try to ruin your self-
confidence and self-esteem. You are better than that, Patricia. Please
continue setting up your web pages...

Jet

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 20:29:54 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID:

FEAs Rosie O'Donnell said in a movie about S&M, I think it was called Eden or
FEsomething, alot of men are jerks, " AND IF WE DON'T START APPRECIATING THE
FEGOOD ONES, THERE WON'T BE ANY LEFT." And while we are on the subject, a lo
FEof women are jerks as well.

FEI think most Ladies on this list appreciate the "good ones", whatever that
FEmeans. Everyone will define it differently.

Ok. Where are they?

HELLOOOOO!!!! Any of you between Jersey Coast and Boston?
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 23:48:59 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 4 Aug 1996 sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

Ok. Where are they?

HELLOOOOO!!!! Any of you between Jersey Coast and Boston?

Well, no actually.... There is something in the Jersey water. All the
good men are in Florida and Sweden :^)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 21:41:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: The communism of the 1990s (fwd)
Message-Id: <199608050441.VAA02071@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Forwarding a posting someone made to another list, which contains an
article from "Village Voice." I think this kind of thing is of
concern to anyone who lives an "alternative lifestyle" in the US.

From this week's Village Voice


Who Opened Their E-mail?

It's the Kiddie Porn Crusaders

by ANNETTE FUENTES

Don't look now, but some FBI suits may be lurking around the chat room or,
worse, secretly surveilling your e-mail and other private cyberspace
communications. And chances are it's all in the name of fighting child
pornography.

That's what two New York City women learned recently when each received
certified mail from the U.S. Justice Department. The letters, dated May
20, explained that ''between the dates of August 1, 1995 and August 26,
1995, electronic communications involving you or persons using your
America Online username were intercepted.''

The letters listed six targeted AOL account numbers and their respective
screen names, like Cyberqueer, Yngcumlvr, and Borntocum none of which had
any connection to the women.

''I was horrified,'' said Elizabeth Ewen. ''At first I didn't understand
what it was all about. I didn't recognize any of the screen names.''

Ewen, a professor at SUNY Old Westbury, called the assistant U.S. attorney
who'd signed the letter, John David Kuchta, in Virginia. He told her the
rationale for the surveillance was child porn. She told him she felt her
privacy and civil rights had been violated.

''He said, 'Don't worry, you were just caught up in the net. You didn't do
anything criminal, and you should support what we're doing,' '' Ewen
recalled.

Two days after Ewen got her letter, a friend of hers got the same thing.
Margaret S. (she asked that her last name not be used), an educator in the
Queens library system, was stunned to learn that almost a year after the
fact, the FBI was disclosing that they'd been spying on her travels
through cyberspace.

''I don't expect total privacy online the same way I know the telephone
isn't really private,'' she said. ''But how often will the government
raise the specter of child porn to justify this? We're just supposed to
forget our civil rights in the name of it.''

Margaret e-mailed AOL with a message of outrage. In return she got a form
letter from Jean Villanueva, a vice president for corporate
communications, stating that AOL had merely complied with a court order
obtained by the Justice Department when it ''monitored'' the e-mail of six
AOL subscribers. It was part of Justice's campaign, ''Innocent Images,''
Villanueva wrote. In closing, he referred members to a special Justice
Department hotline set up to deal with AOL subscribers like Margaret and
Ewen, innocents caught in the web. (By deadline, AOL had not responded to
several calls seeking comment.)

Margaret called the hotline, left a message, and two weeks later got a
call back from Tonya Fox at Justice. Fox told her there were some 840
other AOL subscribers like her who'd accidentally stumbled into the FBI's
cyber wiretaps. ''She kept telling me over and over that I was 'clean,'
that I shouldn't worry,'' Margaret said. ''She also said if I wanted to
read the file on my surveillance, I should get a lawyer.''

How Ewen and Margaret were scooped up by the FBI they can't figure out. If
one of them tripped into FBI surveillance of a suspected pornographer, did
she then lead the feds to her friend through their e-mail correspondence?
ACLU associate director Barry Steinhardt says that while it's legal for
the government armed with a warrant to surveil the e-mail and other
private cyber communications of suspected criminals, it is not legal to
extend the surveillance to unrelated communications of innocent bystanders
who chance into chat rooms or read electronic bulletin boards while a
suspect is also present.

''What has happened here is the most intrusive form of e-mail
interception,'' Steinhardt said. ''The government can get a subpoena to
intercept real-time e-mail, which is the equivalent of phone wiretapping.
They can also use a variety of devices to retrieve stored e-mail.'' But,
adds Steinhardt, what is legal and what should be lawful are two different
things.

Mike Godwin, an attorney with the San Francisco'based Electronic Frontier
Foundation, a civil liberties organization, warns that as government
expands its reach into cyberspace, such incursions into private lives will
pose a greater threat to civil liberties than simple phone taps. ''It was
necessary for law enforcement to learn how to narrow the scope of
wiretapping, but here you have this technology where you're always making
copies, always storing material somewhere,'' Godwin said. ''It makes it
very easy to get even deleted files that stay around for a while. That's
not true about telephone calls.''

Justin Williams, chief of the Justice Department's criminal division in
Alexandria, Virginia, could not comment on the particular investigation
that snared Ewen and Margaret. But he insisted that what happened to them
''was not a surveillance.''

''You wouldn't say their e-mail was read,'' Williams said. ''It could be
they were surfing the Internet and happened into a particular room where
by chance there is an [individual] under electronic surveillance.''

Williams said their hotline received 160 calls from AOL subscribers such
as Ewen and Margaret. While the statute regulating government
surveillance Title III requires Justice to notify the targets of
eavesdropping, notifying innocent bystanders is discretionary, he said.

Williams could not say how many such online surveillances the Justice
Department is conducting. But ACLU lawyer Steinhardt says in the past
year, the government's pursuit of child porn in cyberspace has reached a
fever pitch.

''Most online surveillance by the government is now centered on child
porn,'' he said. ''It has people assigned to child porn investigations who
are fascinated by the use of the Internet to distribute it. They're no
longer going after the producers who actually abuse children. They're
going after consumers. It's easier, splashier.''

Splashy and messy for those who happen to be in the wrong cyber place, if
only for a nanosecond. For Ewen, the witch-hunt has begun again.

''Child porn will become the communism of the '90s,'' she said.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 23:48:01 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID: <32056EF1.1704@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David Land wrote:

I am of the opinion that crudity and laziness are more disgusting than the
absence of aggression or a powerful physique.

I personally agree. Absence of aggression can be seen as a virtue, and
a powerful physique is beautiful only if the power is not misused. Lack
of a showpiece bod should not discourage men *or* women from feeling
good about the sensual bodies that they *do* have.

Crudity to me bespeaks lack of civilizing influences, which might be
forgiveable. Laziness is just plain bad, but may be attributed to
upbringing, or mental difficulties such as Attention Deficit Disorder,
Depression, or other manageable states. In any case, a male who is
healthy, active, self-repecting, *and* adoring to women is certainly
ideal.

--
Laura Goodwin

"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."

(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 02:11:37 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: thughes@crosslink.net
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Family? etc.(Re: Monogomy)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960805061137.00689178@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Spirit wind wrote:
the traditional family has been the most prevalent by far, and has worked
for thousands of years. I.e. we are still here aren't we?

Families are still here because of _mothers_. There are *traditions*, and
~traditions~...it's also traditional in every culture since time began for
women to raise the children whether there was a dependable father in the
picture or not. In every mammalian species, the females raise the
offspring, with or without the aid of a male mate. That's a family! If
natural law is Divine Law, then maternal dominance is divinely ordained.

Mating is not what makes a family...any beast can procreate. Being there
and caring, fostering the offspring, that's what makes a family. If a man is
there and actively cares, he's a *father*. Otherwise he's just a *fuck*,
and should get the fuck out of the mother's way.

Too many women think that because a guy fucks you that he therefore should
have some say over your life, and the life of your kids. Fooey! If he's a
father and a true husband, sure! But if he's a bozo except in bed he should
stay the hell out of a woman's family decisions.

Women should rule their own households. Mothers should have final say in
all family decisions. Men should be jolly good sports or get lost. That's
my opinion and I'm standing by it.

I also feel that women have too easily accepted as a given the idea that
one-on-one is a beneficial arrangement. I do wish more women would
seriously question the wisdom of this notion. In the leather scene there
are at least ten guys for every gal...if more gals would keep harems of men,
more guys would have mistresses to call their own. This might be
beneficial, too!

As for confusing children...don't underestimate children. They can
certainly accept any arrangement they are raised up in. As long as the
adults aren't confused, they won't be either.



Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 15:07:25 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
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From: Spirit Wind
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Oh! If only that were true! Define *society*.
American society, and I was giving their reasons, not mine.

Yeah, but *define family*
I wouldn't take it as a given that monogamy is the best marriage arrangement, nor the best type of family for the upbringing of children.
My point was that society tries to safeguard the family. They are often
wrong, and accomplish the opposite of their stated goals. Also the
traditional family has been the most prevalent by far, and has worked
for thousands of years. I.e. we are still here aren't we? This is a
stated positive not an implied negative about one persons perspective.

Polyamory does not equal thrill-seeking sexual
predation, necessarily.
Certainly not. This was not said nor implied. Again, I made positive
statements about monogamy from my perspective. No negatives were
implied to honest, caring people. Predators use people selfishly,
without caring about the other person, i.e., "fresh meat."

As for propagation, the world is overcrowded and we should give it a rest
already.

Amen to that one!

The children that result will enjoy many benefits!
Can't agree with you there. To me it would be terribly confusing and
unsettling for a child to grow up in the situation you described. I
think the one father and mother situation is the one we were given in
the beginning (Genesis) and it is the ideal. Adam and Eve, not Adam and
Steve? Again, no implied criticism or condemnation here. I'm stating
my opinion. To me social chaos would result from a complete abolition
of the traditional family structure. I have seen much wreckage along
the way of people who tried alternative arrangements, and because of
jealousy or lust and anger, came apart at the seems, and ended up
destroying their relationship. Speaking only for myself, there are
great benefits to being a one woman guy. These thoughts are
respectfully submitted, with no unkind intentions. On some things we
can disagree without being disagreeable!

Always listening, for that still small voice,

Spirit Wind

--CAA15407.839226505/poseidon.crosslink.net--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 13:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-Id: <199608052043.NAA02601@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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David Land wrote:

There is a cause-and effect argument here: because some M is not
aggressive, macho, or built like Hercules, some M are not respected by
(any?) women.

I think this is a far too simplistic statement. I prefer men who
aren't "bonehead macho" but also aren't "doormats." Personally, I
don't respect a man who competes for Mr. Universe any more than any
other man, and in fact find that kind of overpumped physique way
beyond my tastes. If anything, I may discriminate against a man built
like that assuming he's over-vain. Not fair, I know.

To me, a man with a sense of himself, who cares about others, who
isn't driven by ego or pride, and at least cares about his appearance
is the way to go. Guys I run into who seem to be looking to be owned
by a woman only so they never have to think for themselves are totally
unattractive, as are guys who care so little about themselves that
they will submit to any woman who will take them (without bothering to
make sure she's not an axe-murderer first). However, guys who feel
that they have to always push and bait a woman to get her to do
"horrible things" to him are also unattractive. Needless to say,
guys who treat women like we're all idiots and should stay in the
kitchen are the least attractive of all. I don't care what they look
like, I see no need to put up with that kind of attitude.

(The following is all, of course, IMO. Not speaking for all women,
just for myself.)

So, what am I trying to say? Overly aggressive ("Dominate me bitch")
is unattractive. Moderately aggressive ("Hi, I know you don't know
me, but I wanted to tell you I really like your web page") is
acceptable. Total passivity ("I'll do anything any woman wants") is
unattractive.

Overly macho ("I can spit tobacco 300 yards") is unattractive.
Moderatly macho ("I'll be happy to change your tire") is just peachy
as long as it's not pushy and assuming that I don't know what I'm
doing. Feminine, which is I guess what I'd call "lack of macho" ("I
know I'm a guy, but I'm happiest in a dress and with painted
toenails") is also just peachy.

As far as "built" goes...I don't go for overly pumped up guys. I find
it kind of gross. I also don't really go for being able to see
someone's ribs. A little muscle tone can be nice. Guys who go to
BDSM events expecting women to all be wearing PVC and latex, but who
didn't bother to wear more than a pair of jeans and a T-shirt baffle
me.

Or, put differently, male aggression and body-building cause some women to
respect some men.

I will agree with the "some women" part. "Some men" also respect male
aggression and body-building. I wouldn't say, though, that male
aggression equates with body-building. I'm sure not all body-builders
are aggressive people. And, remember, "aggression" isn't necessarily
a bad thing. Overly aggressive is, IMO, a bad thing. Aggression can
simply mean the willingness to start a conversation with someone.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #178
************************************************

From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:42 1996
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From: Peter Saxton
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: A Wonderful Name?]
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 23:52:17 GMT
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On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:54:55 -0700, you wrote:

tricky aka peter aka kriv:
I ain't buying into this one..making it appear that we DOMMES are
competing..such a male trick....I know we are all too good for that...as
for me I chose to call you tricky....and so I will
Patricia

You are right, Patricia. Men like me should know our place - I'm a
slut who'll lick the ass of any woman who wishes it!

peter

Peter Saxton, from London
peter@psaxton.demon.co.uk

the subject "help".


From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:33 1996
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From: "Thomas Young"
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To: "The Night-Hag"
Subject: RE: A Wonderful Name?
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Hopefully others wouldn't find any type of discussion on Female Supremacy too
lurid. am trying to learn from mine and other people's view. tom

----------

The Night-Hag,
Whose visions of female supremacy discussions are too
lurid to be detailed here to those of tender sensibilities.
______________________________________________________

the subject "help".


From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:34 1996
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From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
Message-Id: <199609061958.MAA00944@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: "Gate to Women's Country"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <199694174943441@ix.netcom.com from "jnbry@ix.netcom.com" at Sep 4, 96 03:50:51 pm
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jnbry@ix.netcom.com wrote:

My wife and I are also, on the surface, in the traditional mold. I am the
professional male "breadwinner"; my wife is the stay at home mom, complete
with a minivan for getting the kids to and from soccer practice. I don't
mean this to be flippant; my wife *works* at being a homemaker. She is the
home room mother teachers kill for. She has a master's degree, is *very*
intelligent and, I'm thrilled to say, dominant. What she wants wants right
now is to be the primary influence in our children's lives.

I would respect any decision she makes. The only areas I want an equal say
in are those pertaining to values and beliefs (religion, politics, etc) and
the raising of our kids. However, in truth, I'm thrilled that she is with
our boys when I am not.

So I wonder, what do the advocates of a FS future think of such a
"traditional" woman?

My answer is similar to the answers of others on this list. I feel
that FS is about giving people choices. Part of what turned me off of
the word "feminist" as a child was the feeling that "feminists" felt
all women should be one certain type of person. Wouldn't that be a
boring world?

Some women want to be free to go out into the workplace and have their
husband stay at home, doing the housework and raising the kids. Other
women want to do the opposite, to be able to stay home and raise the
children and take care of the house. (This really applies to any
gender combination.) There are myriads of other arrangements, and as
long as it's what the people want then more power to them. I only
object when, as I've seen happen to friends, the man tries to tell the
woman that she has to end her entire career and live at home if she
wants to be with him. It's these women who usually end up
handicapped, in that if they leave the marriage or are left, they have
no job skills. That seems to be the major drawback in being the stay
at home half of a couple.

Do the advocates of a FS future encourage young women will break out of the
traditional child rearing/domestic roles to journey down the career path and
strive to shatter the glass ceiling?

I encourage young women as I was encouraged...figure out who you want
to be, and what you want to do, and do it. Everyone's different, with
their own hopes, dreams, gifts, etc. I have friends who went to
university only so they'd have a degree in case they never married, or
were divorced and had to fend for themselves. Their dream in life was
to have children and take care of the house. I also have friends who
were determined to become doctors, dentists, vets, business tycoons,
etc. Some of them shunned relationships because they feared ending up
a housewife with children. They all chose their own paths, and as far
as I know most of them found they were happiest with something in
between. One of my oldest (long lasting) friends just wanted to be a
mom and housewife, but instead her husband works full time, she works
part time, and she takes care of the house. She found she couldn't
stand being at home all day, and they're not ready for children yet.
But, she was given the _choice_ to alter her life in a way that would
make her happy and feel like a "whole person."

Do the advocates of FS accept the choices of women such as my wife and value
the influence they will have on the next generation?

I certainly can't speak for all "advocates" of FS, as there are wide
range of people and beliefs. I respect such choices, as long as they
were actually the choices of the women in question, and not an outside
force telling her that no matter what she _wants_ to be, this is what
she _must_ be.

In achieving FS, how much of the change will come from within the workplace?

Part of it will come from the workplace. As women stand for less and
less harassment and general bad attitudes from the men they work with,
the better behaviour in the office will hopefully translate to better
behaviour outside.

How much will come from within relationships?

I think relationships can have a lot of power in our lives. A man may
see all women as a bunch of flutterbrained idiots, and then fall in
love with a very smart woman who refuses to be spoken to or treated
that way, and he may find that he's happier with her than anyone
else. Voila, one mind opened. Relationships also include
friendships. When people start refusing to laugh and nod when their
friends start spouting misogynistic, racist, etc. stuff, and instead
say, "You know, I think you're wrong."...I think that will start to
point out that their views aren't as common as they like to believe.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".


From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:36 1996
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From: kriv@interlog.com (kriv)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: A Wonderful Name?]
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Sorry, Starbound and Patricia. In deference to Mistress Lady Jet, I'll call
myself kriv from now on.
Regards
kriv


what's my name? wrote:

What did I start here? Mistress Lady Jet, where are you, now that I really
need you?
Peter aka peter aka big peter aka peter-pan aka peter pan

peter pan or kriv would be great... It's up to you... :)

Mistress Lady Jet


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the subject "help".


From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:38 1996
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kriv wrote:

Sorry, Starbound and Patricia. In deference to Mistress Lady Jet, I'll call
myself kriv from now on.
Regards
kriv


what's my name? wrote:

What did I start here? Mistress Lady Jet, where are you, now that I really
need you?
Peter aka peter aka big peter aka peter-pan aka peter pan

peter pan or kriv would be great... It's up to you... :)

Mistress Lady Jet

Starbound wrote:

So many Mistresses, so little time.....
you have been bad kriv!...Go to My room!.....

Starbound
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the subject "help".


From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:39 1996
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From: Patricia
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tricky aka peter aka kriv:
I ain't buying into this one..making it appear that we DOMMES are
competing..such a male trick....I know we are all too good for that...as
for me I chose to call you tricky....and so I will
Patricia

tricky aka peter aka kriv wrote:
Sorry, Starbound and Patricia. In deference to Mistress Lady Jet, I'll call myself kriv from now on.
Regards
kriv

the subject "help".


From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:46 1996
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Date: 07 Sep 96 03:45:50 EDT
From: Marissa <103267.1522@CompuServe.COM
To: Femsupremacy
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: A Wonderful Name?]
Message-ID: <960907074550_103267.1522_IHH37-1@CompuServe.COM
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peter wrote:

You are right, Patricia. Men like me should know our place - I'm a
slut who'll lick the ass of any woman who wishes it!

peter<<

While I believe wholeheartedly in each person's right to expression of ideas, I
have counted no less than 20 messages on the topic of what to call this person.
Additionally, his responses are designed to elicit some self-pleasing,
self-serving FD feedback for himself.

I thought this list was designed to provide a forum where FS could be discussed
in a serious, thoughtful environment. Instead, comments like the above from
peter do nothing except stroke the male ego/libido. Let's move on!

Marissa

the subject "help".


From - Fri Aug 30 19:08:59 1996
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 194

Today's Topics:
Re: When Malcolm Worked For Her
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Submissive pushing dominant.
Discarding Women
Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
RE: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Sandbox play can get pretty gritty
Is it Always Like This?
FS exciting in action
Re: Stretching Limits:
Re: Is it Always Like This?
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Change of topic
Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
books

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:42:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: When Malcolm Worked For Her
Message-Id: <199608290242.TAA03641@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Paul/maidpaula wrote:

Malcolm- No, thank *you* for relating your experience. Your views on
female supremacy are enlightening and a pleasure to read.

It sounds like it was a special and successful relationship for you both,
albeit "unacknowledged". It will be interesting to see how
employer-employee relations evolve over time as women achieve greater power
in the business world. I imagine they will change for the better, but I
also have a small fear that power is just plain corruptable to many,
regardless of gender. I hope my fear is unfounded, only time will tell of
course.

I agree - Malcolm's post was pleasant reading; not to mention something I
can relate to. I often do ver' good work, mostly when I'm keyed up over
something interesting or exciting that I'm doing. But, I consistently do
decent work at minimum when I've had a woman boss or coworker whom I liked
and respected - in essence, I did better because I'd be viewing it as doing
better for her. Given that I generally strive for a modicum of profession-
ality, they'd never know -why- I did better, but.... ;)

So far as the fear about power and corruptability, well.... Definately,
both genders are susceptable to being corrupted. But - power corrupts
most those who seek it for its own sake. And in general, I've found
that women tend to acquire or seek power secondarily, almost as a side
effect. They do good work - so they get promoted to management, super-
visory, or executive positions, despite a system often unfavorable to
them. Or they seek power - but because they need it for a reason, be it
to correct problems with school systems, or economic issues, or whatnot.

Those types, female or male, are less likely to be corrupted, or at least
to a lesser extent. An' given that I find them more often on the Goddess'
side of the gender line, I think things may well change for the better as
women continue to gain equal influence, and then more. :)

Regards,
Chase / Lawless

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:53:34 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <3225062E.1125@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Good call Dee Ann. You have protected this group from
what was little more than a cyber-stalker (and an
inarticulate one at that).
Roland

Why did god(dess) create men first? You always start with the
proto-type, filled with bugs and imperfections. She did how-
ever create a rather nice finished product on the second try!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:55:44 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Submissive pushing dominant.
Message-ID: <32269070.B31@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura wrote:
I have been pushed a lot more than I have been
persuaded, and persuasion is better. The problem arises when you have a
dominant who is not into what you are into.

The trouble with most of us men is, we subtly try to manipulate our
wives and girlfriends into doing what turns us on, and we are not shy
about using manipulative, phony tricks to get what we want. It's bogus,
and wrong. Until we learn to stop being manipulative, and truly
submissive and quite, listening and obeying, we will never achieve true
spiritual calmness and bliss. To be truly submissive to a woman,
without trying to control, manipulate or get off, is an incredibly
wonderful experience. When you get to the point where you obey in
total, even only reaching shangrela at her command, you go into another
dimension that you can't reach by playing the shallow power and get off
games so popular among us men. The deeper sensuality achieved by being
totally consumed with a devotion to another, and to me that means one
special person with whom you share that bond exclusively, is deeply
spiritual and sexual, and absolutely guilt free. Guilt free sex is not
an oxymoron. Some like it better that way of course! OK, if you must,
fantasize if you need that bad boy feeling. It's not really necessary,
but different strokes for different folks.(man, can you have fun with
that one) Bliss? Oh yeah.
Ecstasy? Oh yeah. Calm, yet excited, submissive yet exhilarated, and
strong yet totally weak and enraptured. Sounds like love to me!

Peace and bliss to you my friends,
(For David: the bible, the bible, the bible,
thump thump thump...................NOT!!!)

Love and kisses,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:17:01 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
CC: Patricia Noble
Subject: Discarding Women
Message-ID: <3226956D.51C2@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia wrote:
what happens to your pure Amazon athelete..when gravity sets
in...discard her for newer, tighter model...(that sounds familiar), what
happens when your female athelete gets breast cancer and has to have one
or both removed to save her life.

Patricia, you always get right down to the core issue don't you. Love
means a person is worthwhile no matter what their sexual value may be.
You are sometimes confrontational and abrasive, but you are always
passionate, sincere, and usually right. I vote for the older, looser,
breast less model, the overweight, less desirable according to the
Madison Avenue, thin adoring society we live in. It's what's on the
inside that counts, as you already know. If a man leaves his lady
because she is sick or disfigured, or getting old, or fat or in any way
less than the ideal, he is one shallow, foolish looser who doesn't
deserve the love of a loyal devoted woman. He can go off in search of a
bimbo to use, and they deserve each other. People are people, she isn't
a rock, a playground, a sex machine, Santa clause, a vending machine to
get out of whatever we WANT, SHE IS A PERSON, WORTHY OF RESPECT AND
LOYALTY.
You are a courageous woman, who always says what she believes, and
dares to be open and vulnerable, and I salute you for that. Your all
right my friend.

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:48:16 +0200
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608291148.EAA20975@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

LauraPatriciaTonyPetere.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe) failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip imperfections*.

Xantippe Movement.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:04:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608291304.IAA27746@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well here's another victim statement from old Xantippe. I know where MY
delete key is.
I was wondering about that word, Xantippe. Is
it Greek for drivel?

LauraPatriciaTonyPetere.o. generated a chainreaction which is
deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe)
failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere
can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe
initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on
the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a
urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick
newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip imperfections*.

Xantippe Movement.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:42:40 -0500
From: STALEY
To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
Subject: RE: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-ID: <01BB9586.136BAA80@modem03.cadvantage.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB9586.136BAA80"

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please unsubscribe us after all this is not femsupremacy but =
childsupremacy your system finds us to send the childishness let your =
system find us to unsubscribe us
THANK YOU!!!!!! =20

----------
From: David Land[SMTP:rrlelnd@escape.ca]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 1996 3:04 AM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim

Well here's another victim statement from old Xantippe. I know where MY
delete key is.
I was wondering about that word, Xantippe. Is
it Greek for drivel?

LauraPatriciaTonyPetere.o. generated a chainreaction which is
deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe)
failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We =
overhere
can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that =
Xantippe
initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* =
on
the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a
urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick
newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip =
imperfections*.

Xantippe Movement.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".


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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:45:50 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-ID:

FELauraPatriciaTonyPetere.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorat

FEXantippe Movement.

Well, I'd say that if your first posts were inoccuous,
even interesting, I'd say *this* one is pretty pompous
and arrogant!

Thank you, I am no longer interested.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:56:30 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-ID: <3225CBBE.557C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

please wordwrap
patricia

xantippe wrote:

LauraPatriciaTonyPetere.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe) failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges an

Xantippe Movement.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:08:09 +0000
From: "The Night-Hag"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Sandbox play can get pretty gritty
Message-Id: <199608291613.QAA87235@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

From: STALEY
To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
Subject: RE: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:42:40 -0500
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

please unsubscribe us after all this is not femsupremacy but childsupremacy your system finds us to send the childishness let your system find us to unsubscribe us
THANK YOU!!!!!!

Buttons, buttons....PUSH!!!

I have to agree, with watching all the "pushing and shoving" going on,
I am beginning to wonder about the validity of the above statement.
I'm reminded of a child's game, called " Buttons,buttons, who's got the
buttons"..and once you find out..you *push* it.

It takes much more wisdom, maturity, and control to respond to
someone than it does to react to them. Children, because they are
immature, react. However, those who are hoping to reign Supreme
need to learn to take the time to think through what they are saying
and use their wisdom to find an appropriate response.

The Night-Hag

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 96 14:25:03 EDT
From: Marissa <103267.1522@CompuServe.COM
To: Femsupremacy
Subject: Is it Always Like This?
Message-ID: <960829182503_103267.1522_IHH87-1@CompuServe.COM

Gee, an action packed week here on the list. Is it always like this?

Marissa

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: FS exciting in action
Message-Id: <199608291840.LAA23165@cyprus.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:03 PM 8/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
Tony, it's becoming obvious that you're going to pull an adolescent
stunt every chance you get. I'm removing and banning you from this
list.

Dee-Ann

----------
Gosh, that was exciting. Female supremacy in action: Women making wise
decisions to make all our lives better. Women making their world the way
they want it. More power to you.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:40:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching Limits:
Message-Id: <199608291840.LAA23155@cyprus.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Kalika,

Thank you for sharing your lovely thoughts. Very nicely said ... very
nicely conceived. What you say has the feel of deep personal truth.

... in a Femsprem "environment", it is *always* the wishes of the Goddess
that are to be met... fullfilled.

IMHO, males need to learn patience ... focus on the wishes of the Goddess,
... to remain quiet ... to observe and learn ... to accept deference to Her
as a natural occurance.

In so doing, he will grow both in his ability to please Her, and also his
opportunity to experience the joy ... it is, really, a natural thing.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:04:36 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Is it Always Like This?
Message-ID: <3225E9C4.30FA@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marissa--

Sometimes it's very busy and sometimes it is not. It just depends.
I enjoy it when it's busy because so much is being discussed and so
much is going on. I also enjoy it when it's not so busy because then
I can respond to more email from the list in an indepth manner.

I have been on the list for about 4-5 months now (I think--sometimes
it feels longer because I've learned so much here and met so many
great people) and there is rarely a dull moment. You've been lurking
so you kind of know what's happening, but the longer you're on the list,
the more you learn.

Jet

Gee, an action packed week here on the list. Is it always like this?

Marissa

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608292016.NAA01034@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1108

xantippe wrote:

LauraPatriciaTonyPetere.o. generated a chainreaction which is deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe) failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a * xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking? might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old grudges and don't kick newcomers before they are even aware of their own*maidentrip imperfections*.

You will quickly learn that going into any online forum and simply
starting to post ads is fairly ineffective and tends to upset people.
Please don't now try to start fights here by throwing around
accusations.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id: <199608292020.NAA01053@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 525

David Land wrote:

Well here's another victim statement from old Xantippe. I know where MY
delete key is.
I was wondering about that word, Xantippe. Is
it Greek for drivel?

Let's quit all of the sniping back and forth, shall we?

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:27:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: feydancer@earthlink.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Change of topic
Message-Id: <199608292227.PAA06896@iberia.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

De-lurking again...

After several weeks of aggravation, my new PC is running smoothly and
connected to the net again. I now know more than I ever wanted to about
Windows '95! Anyway, I thought I'd toss out a few things...

Just finished re-reading Adjit Mookerjee's _Kali, The Feminine Force_. It's
a richly illustrated and well-written book. I think anyone interested in
femsupremacy would find it interesting. (Those who follow Goddess paths may
find it downright inspirational!)

A tidbit from the book... "There is no jewel rarer than woman, no condition
superior to that of a woman. There is not, nor has been, nor will be any
destiny to equal that of a woman..." (from the Saktisangama Tantra)


I also wondered if anyone has read _The Gate to Women's Country_ by Sherri
S. Tepper? (science fiction) The most interesting concept in the book is
gradually uncovered in the story, so I won't relate it here. But I will
describe the predominate social structure. In a post-nuclear-holocost world
a society has been organized in which there are a series of towns
(Marthatown, Peggytown, etc). Each town has a garrison attached to it filled
with (male) warriors. All the women (and men known as "Servitors") live
within the walled towns. The women are well-educated and do all the work of
maintaining the society (farming, fishing, trading, etc.). Warriors, of
course, fight. Tepper is a wonderful author and the story is an entertaining
read which also explores the relationship between the sexes and a possible
ending of patriarchy.


--Lady Phoenix

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:03:59 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Deterioration-.Xantippe gets the blaim
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I suggest people treat this the same way I deal with a mosquito bite. Try
to ignore the discomfort for a couple of days and it will go away.
peter


xantippe wrote:

LauraPatriciaTonyPetere.o. generated a chainreaction which is
deteriorating this list.Do you all let this happen because we (xantippe)
failed (as we did) to introduce ourselves properly and in time? We
overhere can not believe that.Are you not cheating yourself by thinking
that Xantippe initiated the said chainreaction? Feeling invaded by a *
xantippe text* on the screen? It can so easy be deleted..are you faking?
might be out of a urge need for attention? Just get rid of your old
grudges and don't kick newcomers before they are even aware of their
own*maidentrip imperfections*.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:41:42 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: books
Message-ID: <322662F6.6F46@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

has anyone else read "Woman at the edge of Time." by Mary Daly...it is
fiction...that's more than fiction.
Patricia

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 193

Today's Topics:
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Intruders - good and bad
UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: UNSUBSCRIBE
When Malcolm Worked For Her
Re: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Re: Just saw 12 Monkeys on PPV
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
presenter(s), speaker for 2/97 conference in Seattle (fwd)
Bye bye, Tony
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:38:10 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960828183810.0069ba98@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume
there is

Patricia:

Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
by-rules of this mailing list?

Tony, I'm the one who said that. As for the rules of the list, I'll leave
it up to the Dee-Ann our illustrious List Mistress to rebuke me if it's
called for. Now Tony, unless you want to look like a troublemaker, practice
what you preach.

I have no problem with xantippe being here, and I have no complaint with
coyote. But xantippe should realize pretty quick that honesty is the best
policy here.

I have seen the xantippe posts on asb and asfd, and felt all along that it
was, ~at best~, someone trying to reinvent the wheel. I see no evidence
that an actual organization of any kind is represented. If an actual
organization is represented, the spokesperson should identify him/herself by
name or nom de plume, and say that they represent said organization, and in
what capacity. Whether or not that person is an official spokesperson
should be stated, and verifiable. Otherwise this person shall be treated as
an individual, and a delusional and possibly fraudulent one at that. That
is the way it is.

I am plenty friendly to people who are honest and polite. I have little
tolerance for folks like xantippe jumping up on the soapbox seconds after
arriving to tell us all how to do our thing. IMHO, xantippe should try
learning something before he presumes to teach. I saw no evidence that
xantippe had any respect for the worthy women and men of this list, and if I
seemed harsh, it was because my protective instincts were aroused on your
behalf.

Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 28 Aug 96 17:28:40 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Intruders - good and bad
Message-ID: <960828212839_101342.2030_GHW83-1@CompuServe.COM

Oh dear - here we all go again ! Why is it that whenever a suspect mail arrives
in our list, mayhem ensues !

It has happened a number of times since I had the luck to discover this group. A
posting arrives, usually from someone totally unknown, and all of a sudden the
most amicable and cool minded people have erupted into verbal warfare. Why !
Surely we are all aware that there are numerous fifth columnists out there on
the wicked Net who thrive on disrupting (or attempting to disrupt) well ordered
intelligent discussion groups. It is how they get off ! They usually creep in -
crap - and creep out - never to heard of again.

IMHO, the best way to deal with such invasions is to ignore them. Usually, if
they are genuine, they will reveal themselves and interface in a manner
befitting this group. Even the most crass of interlopers will quickly depart
when not fed with the anger they lust after. We should as a group politely turn
our backs on them, and continue our conversations as though they did not exist.

Why should the occasion of Patricia threatening to leave ever become an issue,
if it is occasioned by someone who has posted very few missives of import. I do
not understand ! No one person can be liked by everybody, and there are some
people who you would decidedly not want to be liked by anyway. Patricia, you are
admired and liked by many in this group, and I personally look forward to (and
usually predict) your red-headed outbursts, they are sometimes total gems !
Please carry on - but beware the *agent provocateur*, they are conrolling you,
and you are certainly not one to enjoy being controlled :-)

I have continually been amazed at the level of intelligence found in the
writings posted to this group, let us make sure that no Net Lowlife disrupts us
again.

In the meantime, if genuine, we may look forward to *xantippe* re-posting here
in an intellectual manner that will promote intellectual response rather than
mutual verbal abuse.

Dennis (t.o.m)


PS

Coyote Sings - I still love you ! I think you may be in for some discipline -
every cloud has a silver lining !

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:59:21 -0500
From: STALEY
To: "'femsupremacy@renaissoft.com'"
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <01BB9502.A3512D20@modem24.cadvantage.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB9502.A358CE40"

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UNSUBSCRIBE =
=09

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From: OhEadhra[SMTP:101342.2030@CompuServe.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 1996 4:28 PM
To: FS
Subject: Intruders - good and bad

Oh dear - here we all go again ! Why is it that whenever a suspect mail =
arrives
in our list, mayhem ensues !

It has happened a number of times since I had the luck to discover this =
group. A
posting arrives, usually from someone totally unknown, and all of a =
sudden the
most amicable and cool minded people have erupted into verbal warfare. =
Why !
Surely we are all aware that there are numerous fifth columnists out =
there on
the wicked Net who thrive on disrupting (or attempting to disrupt) well =
ordered
intelligent discussion groups. It is how they get off ! They usually =
creep in -
crap - and creep out - never to heard of again.

IMHO, the best way to deal with such invasions is to ignore them. =
Usually, if
they are genuine, they will reveal themselves and interface in a manner
befitting this group. Even the most crass of interlopers will quickly =
depart
when not fed with the anger they lust after. We should as a group =
politely turn
our backs on them, and continue our conversations as though they did not =
exist.

Why should the occasion of Patricia threatening to leave ever become an =
issue,
if it is occasioned by someone who has posted very few missives of =
import. I do
not understand ! No one person can be liked by everybody, and there are =
some
people who you would decidedly not want to be liked by anyway. Patricia, =
you are
admired and liked by many in this group, and I personally look forward =
to (and
usually predict) your =11red-headed=12 outbursts, they are sometimes =
total gems !
Please carry on - but beware the *agent provocateur*, they are =
conrolling you,
and you are certainly not one to enjoy being controlled :-)

I have continually been amazed at the level of intelligence found in the
writings posted to this group, let us make sure that no Net Lowlife =

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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-Id: <199608282215.PAA05474@netcom16.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 278

No.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:41:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: When Malcolm Worked For Her
Message-Id: <199608282241.SAA05442@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:34 AM 8/28/96 -0400, Malcolm wrote:
The correspondence about working for her struck a deep chord in my memory.
For some years I ran my own small consultancy to Computer Graphics firms.
About eight years ago, I worked for one such which was quite a substantial
competitor in the commercial typesetting business. The CEO was a woman in her
forties named Martha. Gradually, she spent more and more time with me. Our
relationship lasted about two years. In the beginning, our awareness of the
unspoken nature of it excited us both, I think. There never was an overt
sexual component, but I had a deeply satisfying time of it, and, I like to
think she did, too.



During that time, the unacknowleged relationship we were enjoying gave me the
greatest delight. I think my actual work for the company was of a better
quality than I regularly could achieve because my relationship with Martha
was so deeply fulfilling. This suggests to me that as women become ever more
senior in business, as the glass ceiling shatters, there will be many men who
have the opportunity to find an important component of themselves and their
masculinity through submisive-dominant relationships with women at work, and
Isn't that an optimistic notion to treasure in these grey times?
Thank you for the chance to share this, and to recall that happy episode in
my life!

Malcolm- No, thank *you* for relating your experience. Your views on
female supremacy are enlightening and a pleasure to read.

It sounds like it was a special and successful relationship for you both,
albeit "unacknowledged". It will be interesting to see how
employer-employee relations evolve over time as women achieve greater power
in the business world. I imagine they will change for the better, but I
also have a small fear that power is just plain corruptable to many,
regardless of gender. I hope my fear is unfounded, only time will tell of
course.

Warm regards to all, Paul/maidpaula

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:58:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Message-Id: <199608282358.QAA00140@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1095

xantippe wrote:

We are looking for LADIES/GIRLS for the promotion,set up,and management of a worldwide network of the said communities
inwhere the later global FS is imitated.
Please respond.
No submales..unless intended to sponsor
support,or contribute.

I think the negative reactions to your posts comes from the fact that
you came onto this list and simply started placing ads. Most of us
have never heard of you (I don't read a.s.f right now, so I certainly
haven't) and I know I'm certainly not interested in joining any
organization I know nothing about. Participating in discussions also
helps people to get to know you.

So, unless you intend to post some actual in depth information about
yourself and your "movement," please refrain from posting ads on this
list.

Dee-Ann
List Administrator

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Just saw 12 Monkeys on PPV
Message-Id: <199608290053.RAA00227@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1162

lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:

I noticed lately lots of cool female characters in film. All the women in
*Pulp Fiction* weren't your usual molls. We are talking interesting women
characters who show intelligence and grit. They have adventurous lives.
The Doctor played by Madeline Stowe in *12 Monkeys* is an example.

I rented "Nick of Time" the other night. It's also another one for
good woman and man characters. It shows a man as a caring father,
who's not a testosterone maniac. There are women on both the good and
bad sides, and they're all decently done characters. Perhaps what
made it significant was that the good guys were good guys, and the bad
guys were bad guys. They didn't really go out of their way to
create a difference between the women and men. None of that "sex
crazed psycho bitch" thing going on.

Hopefully this is a trend. :)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <199608290103.SAA00258@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2425

Tony, it's becoming obvious that you're going to pull an adolescent
stunt every chance you get. I'm removing and banning you from this
list.

Dee-Ann

Tony wrote:

Patricia:

Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
by-rules of this mailing list? I believe it is a flame, in that (1)
you labelled the poster's message as "arrogant" without making a
good-faith effort at understanding what her/his motives and underlying
messages were; (2) you added fuel to the rhetorical fire by further
labelling these posts "shit", metaphorically slapping the poster in the
face before you learned anything about her/his ideas. (All in all,
these sound like typically male "Neanderthal" tactics, to me!) And to
think that a few months ago, I was berated summarily by many of the
regular contributors to this group (including, I believe, yourself) for
using somewhat milder language in response to what I still contend were
pretty outrageous falsehoods, be they witting or unwitting.

Also, how do you know that these posts from "xantippe" are aimed at
"femdoms"? That is a big assumption. Maybe they are simply aimed at
proponents of female supremacy, like myself, who have nothing to do
with classic BDSM, and who have never practiced it on the giving or
receiving end. The only criticism I can rightly level at these posts
is that they are too brief and the English is not perfect. Otherwise,
they are interesting and provocative, and I sincerely wish the poster
would further elucidate her/his ideas about female supremacy, even if
she/he is having a little trouble communicating in perfect English (we
all make mistakes from time to time).

Come on, xantippe, let's hear more!

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:15:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: presenter(s), speaker for 2/97 conference in Seattle (fwd)
Message-Id: <199608290115.SAA00295@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1754

Forwarding this here in case anyone knows of a suitable woman to
recommend to speak at this conference.

From: "Decker, Emily"
Subject: presenter(s), speaker for 2/97 conference in Seattle

Hello, everyone. I am delighted to find you all, and wonder if you can help
me with a conference I am planning in Feb. the group I work with, the
Washington Center, does professional development for all the higher ed
institutions in Washington state. We are based at Evergreen state college in
Olympia, WA.

We've been asked to convene a conference for about 250 people on Feb 14-15,
at the Seatac Marriott near the airport. the subject is technology.

Most of the people who have been suggested as presenters are white men, and
one of our two keynote speakers is a white man, a professor from Texas. I
want to find a woman to be our other key-noter, and I am looking for women
who want to do workshops that could help all these faculty and
administrators imagine themselves as shapers of technology, inventors of
uses that fit their values, rather than seeing themselves simply as
disempowered consumers. Even a workshop on what VS is, and why it's here,
would be terrific. Anyone know anyone in the Puget Sound area I should
contact? Please help. I would like this not to be like every other tech
conference I've been to, with boys and toys and not much else.

Thanks.

Emily Decker


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:43:41 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Bye bye, Tony
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960829014341.006969d4@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:03 PM 8/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
Tony, it's becoming obvious that you're going to pull an adolescent
stunt every chance you get. I'm removing and banning you from this
list.

Dee-Ann

Thanks Dee-Ann.
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:08:29 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <322525CD.734E@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

oh thank you Dee Ann...he was more than a pest and the idea that he was
laying in wait for my next error was really creepy..thanks
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:20:43 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???
Message-Id: <199608290316.DAA20338@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 26 Aug 96 about Re: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples??

My Mistress/Wife and I are searching for a resort that specializes in
providing a D/S type of environment for vacationing couples. Does anyone
know of any resorts of this type?

Our own Christine and David Stevenson have just the place!!! Common'
David... tell him all about it!!!

I'm laying on my back reading what looks like a flame war. A
lovely post by zbobz, an inspiring one from malcolm and many
others.

I have a slipped disc which has responded well to three days on
my back and now I have the keyboard on my lap. (a couple of
weeks ago I was nursing Christine through the same problem. Now
it's my turn. Must suggest a nurse's uniform for Christine.
Though I wonder if she'll go for it?)

Thank you Jet and Leather for suggesting our place. But I think
NeedDomFem@aol.com is looking for a place that offers a d/s
environment.

Nowadays we don't do that. (Pity, but it don't pay the bills).
We are just d/s folks offering a conventional environment now.

You can do what you like in your villa and we will not know about
it, unless you care to tell us the juicy details over an
evening meal. :)

However, being understanding folk, we tend to put our d/s
friends in properties with as much privacy as we can find them.
Equally, if you can put together a group yourselves, we'll try
and find you somewhere where you can all play together.

If anyone does know of a d/s holiday club that is still
running, I'd like to know too. The one in Spain is, as far as I
know, no longer operating, having changed hands a couple of
times before going silent. We decided discretion was the better
part of valour after first a national magazine, then a local
newspaper, then the authorities (in blue) all took too much
interest in what became labelled. "Europe's number one SM hotel
here in Portugal". I think that's a fair translation of one of
the headlines. We made the front cover too!

Maybe my marketing was too good? The police seemed to think we
had a club crammed full of showgirls just itching to perform on
stage. They got a bit of a shock when they found Christine and I
and a I, not a showgirl or stage in sight.

If you are out there d/s club, we can put enquiries your way.
(about 1% of which will make a booking! one day when the kids
have grown up.) :)

Just teasing. But the volume will not make you rich. With all
the free copy and promos we got from Forum magazine and others, we
were lucky if 10 couples a year were brave enough to try it.
Trying to organise groups is not for us any more. You do the
organising and we'll find you the properties. Sound fair?

BTW. Forum UK is a thoroughly good magazine that supports worthy
causes. If you start the club, drop them a line, they'll
probably give you a bit of coverage.

Oh, and John we don't have a dungeon. A bit too dramatic for
our homely type of domestic fem-dom. The cupboard under the
stairs is more Christine's style. But if you were looking for a
dungeon in England you would just have to pick up a copy of
Forum. At least two advertise there almost every month. Strange
how the UK version of that magazine has always been much kinkier
than it's US counterpart. Maybe it's true what they say about it
being the English vice. (Sorry Dennis t.o.m. maybe it applies to
both sides of the Irish Sea and even into the Gaeltacht.)

love,
David
________________________________________________
Christine & David Stevenson
http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine
....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....
........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #193
************************************************

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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 192

Today's Topics:
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
get your information correct TONY
Xantippe gets boofed up
Re: get your information correct TONY
Re: Xantippe gets boofed up
empusae has one of THOSE addresses
this one went wrong place too
Re: Working for Her
Re: A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Re: this one went wrong place too
Re: get your information correct TONY
Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:39:51 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <199608280439.VAA07372@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com

You wrote:

I agree with Laura....feels like junk mail to me...
Patricia...
introduction would have been nice

lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:

On 08/27/96 14:07:07 you wrote:

Only when the younger generation*girls* are
stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a
dynamic
worldwide movement
with political power.
Please forward opinions and ideas.

_Xantippe Movement_.

Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person,
and why
the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her"
opinion?

Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume
there is

Patricia:

Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
by-rules of this mailing list? I believe it is a flame, in that (1)
you labelled the poster's message as "arrogant" without making a
good-faith effort at understanding what her/his motives and underlying
messages were; (2) you added fuel to the rhetorical fire by further
labelling these posts "shit", metaphorically slapping the poster in the
face before you learned anything about her/his ideas. (All in all,
these sound like typically male "Neanderthal" tactics, to me!) And to
think that a few months ago, I was berated summarily by many of the
regular contributors to this group (including, I believe, yourself) for
using somewhat milder language in response to what I still contend were
pretty outrageous falsehoods, be they witting or unwitting.

Also, how do you know that these posts from "xantippe" are aimed at
"femdoms"? That is a big assumption. Maybe they are simply aimed at
proponents of female supremacy, like myself, who have nothing to do
with classic BDSM, and who have never practiced it on the giving or
receiving end. The only criticism I can rightly level at these posts
is that they are too brief and the English is not perfect. Otherwise,
they are interesting and provocative, and I sincerely wish the poster
would further elucidate her/his ideas about female supremacy, even if
she/he is having a little trouble communicating in perfect English (we
all make mistakes from time to time).

Come on, xantippe, let's hear more!

Tony

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 01:41:58 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: get your information correct TONY
Message-ID: <32240656.7BE9@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

excuse me Tony..i don't know what your beef against me is but.....I did
not write the statement: pretty arrogant shit....what is your
problem....I did not deserve the first crap you gave me...and I
certainly don't deserve this one....It was Laura who wrote the
original..." Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn
movement." If you would thoughtfully read your email instead of blindly
thrashing about for something I might have done wrong..so you can attack
me again...you would have known that.

You still have never apologized to me for the first one, and you will
probably never apologize for this one either. You are continually an
abuser...and this is the final straw.
I am asking you to get off of this list, or I will. You are negative,
destructive and looking for a woman to abuse...I will not let you have
at me twice. In the real world once would have thrown you out on your
ass. But even in this world I do not deserve and will not allow myself
to be a victim of your misplaced,ignorant, testosterone driven, blind
wrath.

So Laura he's talking about what you said here, and I assume you have
some feelings about his attack on you as well......

As to the continuation of these advertisements by X...this is a
community of people first. Throwing wild advertisements here is
inappropriate without first introducing yourself and having some sense
of our community. It feels like going to sleep in a house on a country
lane that you have worked hard to preserve to wake up finding someone
has put a flashing neon sign on the quiet road while you slept...almost
like an invasion.
Patricia

Tony wrote:


Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume
there is

Patricia:

Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
by-rules of this mailing list? I believe it is a flame, in that (1)
you labelled the poster's message as "arrogant" without making a
good-faith effort at understanding what her/his motives and underlying
messages were; (2) you added fuel to the rhetorical fire by further
labelling these posts "shit", metaphorically slapping the poster in the
face before you learned anything about her/his ideas. (All in all,
these sound like typically male "Neanderthal" tactics, to me!) And to
think that a few months ago, I was berated summarily by many of the
regular contributors to this group (including, I believe, yourself) for
using somewhat milder language in response to what I still contend were
pretty outrageous falsehoods, be they witting or unwitting.

Also, how do you know that these posts from "xantippe" are aimed at
"femdoms"? That is a big assumption. Maybe they are simply aimed at
proponents of female supremacy, like myself, who have nothing to do
with classic BDSM, and who have never practiced it on the giving or
receiving end. The only criticism I can rightly level at these posts
is that they are too brief and the English is not perfect. Otherwise,
they are interesting and provocative, and I sincerely wish the poster
would further elucidate her/his ideas about female supremacy, even if
she/he is having a little trouble communicating in perfect English (we
all make mistakes from time to time).

Come on, xantippe, let's hear more!

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:11:53 +0200
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Xantippe gets boofed up
Message-Id: <199608280711.AAA16821@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Non original-primary thinking will not lead to anything. Thank God it has creative people among *like cs*.

_Xantippe MOVEMENT_

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:58:26 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: get your information correct TONY
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I vote for Patricia to remain and Tony to leave.
Patricia, please do us a favor and just delete his postings when you see
they've arrived.
peter


excuse me Tony..i don't know what your beef against me is but.....I did
not write the statement: pretty arrogant shit....what is your
problem....I did not deserve the first crap you gave me...and I
certainly don't deserve this one....It was Laura who wrote the
original..." Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn
movement." If you would thoughtfully read your email instead of blindly
thrashing about for something I might have done wrong..so you can attack
me again...you would have known that.

You still have never apologized to me for the first one, and you will
probably never apologize for this one either. You are continually an
abuser...and this is the final straw.
I am asking you to get off of this list, or I will. You are negative,
destructive and looking for a woman to abuse...I will not let you have
at me twice. In the real world once would have thrown you out on your
ass. But even in this world I do not deserve and will not allow myself
to be a victim of your misplaced,ignorant, testosterone driven, blind
wrath.

So Laura he's talking about what you said here, and I assume you have
some feelings about his attack on you as well......

As to the continuation of these advertisements by X...this is a
community of people first. Throwing wild advertisements here is
inappropriate without first introducing yourself and having some sense
of our community. It feels like going to sleep in a house on a country
lane that you have worked hard to preserve to wake up finding someone
has put a flashing neon sign on the quiet road while you slept...almost
like an invasion.
Patricia

Tony wrote:


Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume
there is

Patricia:

Doesn't what you just said above (i.e., "[P]retty arrogant shit")
constitute a flame? And isn't flaming against the spirit and the
by-rules of this mailing list? I believe it is a flame, in that (1)
you labelled the poster's message as "arrogant" without making a
good-faith effort at understanding what her/his motives and underlying
messages were; (2) you added fuel to the rhetorical fire by further
labelling these posts "shit", metaphorically slapping the poster in the
face before you learned anything about her/his ideas. (All in all,
these sound like typically male "Neanderthal" tactics, to me!) And to
think that a few months ago, I was berated summarily by many of the
regular contributors to this group (including, I believe, yourself) for
using somewhat milder language in response to what I still contend were
pretty outrageous falsehoods, be they witting or unwitting.

Also, how do you know that these posts from "xantippe" are aimed at
"femdoms"? That is a big assumption. Maybe they are simply aimed at
proponents of female supremacy, like myself, who have nothing to do
with classic BDSM, and who have never practiced it on the giving or
receiving end. The only criticism I can rightly level at these posts
is that they are too brief and the English is not perfect. Otherwise,
they are interesting and provocative, and I sincerely wish the poster
would further elucidate her/his ideas about female supremacy, even if
she/he is having a little trouble communicating in perfect English (we
all make mistakes from time to time).

Come on, xantippe, let's hear more!

Tony

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:24:22 +0000
From: "Empusae"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Xantippe gets boofed up
Message-Id: <199608281125.LAA170611@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:11:53 +0200
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
Subject: Xantippe gets boofed up
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Non original-primary thinking will not lead to anything. Thank God it has creative people among *like cs*.

_Xantippe MOVEMENT_


From the looks of the postings, you certainly have stirred up alot of
non-original primary thinking...like "I dont like you and what you
say, so I am going to take my toys and go home.

Empusae


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:00:06 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Message-ID: <32245EF6.1CE2@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and what the Hera does non-original primary thinking mean. If it is not
original...it is a copy of something else. If it is primary ...like the
primary numbers it is unique onto itself and cannot be divided by any
other number but itself...
so I guess we are being accused of not original, original
thinking....heavy....my mere female brain reels
is it related to snakes and original sin?

"The time has come,"
the Walrus said, "To talk of many things:
of shoes,
and ships,
and sealing wax,
of cabbages and kings,
and why the sea is boiling hot,
and whether pigs have wings."
from: Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:01:41 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: this one went wrong place too
Message-ID: <32245F55.6D0F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

what is happening to this list. it is deteriorating quickly.
if this person would have introduced themselves instead of flooding my
mail box with some message for ladies and girls....
who is taking their toys and going home...my message to tony had nothing
to do with the X stuff...if this is going to become the femsupremacy
place ads for whatever you want list....it is not what I joined for.

I joined to dialogue with intelligent women and men and not be drowned
in ads from strangers.
Patricia

Empusae wrote:

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:11:53 +0200
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
Subject: Xantippe gets boofed up
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Non original-primary thinking will not lead to anything. Thank God it has creative people among *like cs*.

_Xantippe MOVEMENT_

From the looks of the postings, you certainly have stirred up alot of
non-original primary thinking...like "I dont like you and what you
say, so I am going to take my toys and go home.

Empusae

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:34:59 -0400
From: Oldlow@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Working for Her
Message-ID: <960828083458_395871825@emout10.mail.aol.com

The correspondence about working for her struck a deep chord in my memory.
For some years I ran my own small consultancy to Computer Graphics firms.
About eight years ago, I worked for one such which was quite a substantial
competitor in the commercial typesetting business. The CEO was a woman in her
forties named Martha. Gradually, she spent more and more time with me. Our
relationship lasted about two years. In the beginning, our awareness of the
unspoken nature of it excited us both, I think. There never was an overt
sexual component, but I had a deeply satisfying time of it, and, I like to
think she did, too.
Within months, I found myself accepting a vice-presidency in her company, but
Martha also allowed me to assume the duties of a private secretary. We flew
back and forth between Boston and one or another European city about once a
month. Martha spoke no European languages. I do, so I think I was as useful
arranging salon appointments as sales represeentative meetings. I could tell
when she was tiring, and would usualy arrange a cancellable appointment with
a beauty salon for late in the afternoon. She loved having facials. So did I,
but I never infringed on my position by asking to join her at the same salon.
Nevertheless, she recognized this and allowed me the time for my own small
pleasures, sometimes sending me off for a massage or facial she had already
paid for.
I did more and more for her. We shopped together. I hemmed and made small
alterations to her new purchases in my hotel room at night.
I'm sure she realized quite soon that I wore women's underwear as a matter of
habit, so, once when we were pressed for time in Hamburg, I offered to wash
some of her necessaries along with my own. After that, it was an unspoken
agreement. I took care of both our wardrobes, always going to her room in the
evening when I knew she wasn't there to collect the wash and to leave a
freshly-laundered and folded nightgown on her bed after I'd turned it down. I
helped with makeup, with long conferences on dressing, and with small details
of her person. More than once I gave her a pedicure of an evening when there
had been no time for a salon and there was an early flight in the morning. I
loved to see her glorying in her healthy womanhood. It made deeply happy in
the certainty that I had contributed some small component to her joy of life.
Martha was married, but her husband had another position. He never travelled
with her. Martha was by nature a dominant woman. I adored her and wondered
occasionally about her marriage. Perhaps it was not unlike her relationship
with me which based on unspoken acceptance of feminine dominance and
masculine submission.
During that time, the unacknowleged relationship we were enjoying gave me the
greatest delight. I think my actual work for the company was of a better
quality than I regularly could achieve because my relationship with Martha
was so deeply fulfilling. This suggests to me that as women become ever more
senior in business, as the glass ceiling shatters, there will be many men who
have the opportunity to find an important component of themselves and their
masculinity through submisive-dominant relationships with women at work, and
Isn't that an optimistic notion to treasure in these grey times?
Thank you for the chance to share this, and to recall that happy episode in
my life!
Malcolm

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:48:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Message-Id: <199608281348.GAA22589@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings wrote:
'Twas I who wrote to the Xantippe 'movement' and invited 'them' to join us
here and on alt.women.supremacy. When I did this, I had all the Usenet
information noted by Lawless and had in mind all the usual reservations
expressed here today and some of my own as well: it's the cops, it's a
19-year-old guy in a turned around baseball cap eating chocolate-chip
cookies, it's a 52-old-guy (which makes him almost =my= age, Heaven
forfend), it's the Religious Reich, etc. It even occurred to me that
_mirabile dictu_ they could be who they say they are!

Usually when I privately write to people to tell them about this List, I
make sure to say something like, 'as long as you don't flame and treat
everyone with respect it's a _safe place_.' It has always been a safe
place for me with my _really_ nutty Dead White Male ideas and less than
Ladylike attitude, for which I am grateful to all of you: can't it also
be that way for someone whose only real difficulty seems to be a less
than perfect command of English and a slight cluelessness about the good
work that has been done before, on & off the Net?

Feh. Coyote, I hadda a feeling someone told him about the list, but....
You actually read all Xantippe's Girlie ads (I won't call them posts) on
asfd an' invited him here, apparently without even thinking to suggest
that he/she/it/them lurk a while and -not- make the kinds of posts he did
on Usenet? I guess I'm not really surprised.... Not at all in a bad
kinda way, mind you - more a matter of you being -too- nice. ;)

Forgive me all this effrontery from a sincere if bratty little brother,
but I find this reception of Xantippe something less than Sisterly.

Less than Sisterly? I disagree - even sisters get a little peeved when
they start getting flooded with sloppy little notes basically asking
them to give their names, (email) addresses, and personal information to
someone who doesn't know them, doesn't bother to introduce themselves,
and addresses them in what feels like a patronizing kind of way.

Besides, I'd like to hear a _lot_ more about their idea of networked
small FS communities, because, like it or not, the time of tribalism is
upon us, folks. Chou-En-Lai said, "Let a hundred flowers bloom."

*blink* Wasn't aware we'd heard -any- of his/their ideas - just someone
asking GIRLs and LADYs to contact him, and that males(submales) shouldn't
unless planning to offer financial support for what seems an awful lot
like personal fetishistic fantasies.

-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
-- In your head, no car is fast enough,
-- In your heart, no love is true.
-- Will it ruin all your solitary fancies
-- If I tell you that it isn't only you? -- Emma Bull

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:56:00 +0000
From: "The Night-Hag"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Message-Id: <199608281357.NAA121922@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:00:06 -0700
From: Patricia
Organization: MAINartery
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

and what the Hera does non-original primary thinking mean. If it is not
original...it is a copy of something else. If it is primary ...like the
primary numbers it is unique onto itself and cannot be divided by any
other number but itself...
so I guess we are being accused of not original, original
thinking....heavy....my mere female brain reels
is it related to snakes and original sin?


I am not sure what you are trying to imply about my email address?
You have sent mulitple copies of this post in private email to me.
I have one of THOSE addresses? It is a simple address so that even
simple people can write to it. Empusae@ibm.net
Implying it is one of _ THOSE addresses_ might give someone the impression
I am from AOL.

Empusae...The Night-Hag

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:13:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: imagery@biddeford.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: this one went wrong place too
Message-Id: <199608281413.KAA02349@mail.biddeford.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:01 AM 8/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
what is happening to this list. it is deteriorating quickly.
if this person would have introduced themselves instead of flooding my
mail box with some message for ladies and girls....
who is taking their toys and going home...my message to tony had nothing
to do with the X stuff...if this is going to become the femsupremacy
place ads for whatever you want list....it is not what I joined for.

I joined to dialogue with intelligent women and men and not be drowned
in ads from strangers.
Patricia

I am wondering if I am missing some of the posts from here, I haven't
been flooded with ads. I do agree with you; I look forward to intelligent
conversation too.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:24:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: get your information correct TONY
Message-Id: <199608281424.HAA25127@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Great - on one hand we've got Tony once again demonstrating an inability
to read clearly when it gives him an opportunity to be catty and get
back at someone he has a grudge against, on the other, a good member of
the list laying down "Either you go or I go" ultimatums.

Sorry, Patricia - while I do understand where you're coming from, in not
wanting to read this list if you're going to have to wade through posts
like Tony's and Xantippe's, I do think it's going overboard, if not out
of line, to make such statements. I'd -much- rather see the two of them
leave then you, or Laura Goodwin, or Coyote -- but so long's its just one
or two such people that offend, you can always delete their posts without
reading. And then wait for social Darwinism to either induce them to
evolve, or to find an environmental niche more compatible with them.

Patricia concluded:
As to the continuation of these advertisements by X...this is a
community of people first. Throwing wild advertisements here is
inappropriate without first introducing yourself and having some sense
of our community. It feels like going to sleep in a house on a country
lane that you have worked hard to preserve to wake up finding someone
has put a flashing neon sign on the quiet road while you slept...almost
like an invasion.

Exactly - it feels like sleazy advertisements showing up in your kitchen,
or in your Reader's Digest or what not.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: empusae has one of THOSE addresses
Message-Id: <199608281428.HAA25509@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Night Hag wrote:
I am not sure what you are trying to imply about my email address?
You have sent mulitple copies of this post in private email to me.
I have one of THOSE addresses? It is a simple address so that even
simple people can write to it. Empusae@ibm.net
Implying it is one of _ THOSE addresses_ might give someone the
impression I am from AOL.

She's not implying anything - she's pointing out the fact that you've
one of those 'Reply-To:' lines that make people's automatic replies go
to you instead of the list. *That* is why you get multiple copies -
because they send it to you personally, notice, and resend to the list.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #192
************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:
Re: Stretching Limits:
Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Re: Greetings
A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Re: Working for Her
Re: Dungeons for rent?
Just saw 12 Monkeys on PPV
Re: Greetings

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 05:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: Stretching Limits:
Message-Id: <199608271224.FAA11253@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kalika wrote:

I feel that it is solidly the responsibility of the male, as the
representative of the male principle, to accede to the wishes / desires of
the Goddess. In doing so, he may, if it has been previously agreed to, or if
this is an occasion of "open" dialog ... he may then offer to Her, his
readiness to assist Her in the expansion of Her "horizons". However, if this
has not been agreed to previously, and it is not now a time of open dialog /
discussion, then he must wait until such a time occurs. At no time, should
he make even the *slightest* effort to "push" his desires / wishes, on Her.

If She allows him to make this offering, but She declines for whatever
reason (an no reason need be given IMHO), the matter is *closed* until the
next scheduled "dialog". Certainly, a Goddess may find pleasure in knowing
that Her male wishes to "extend" himself in order to please / pleasure Her
... and this knowledge, when properly offered, can in and of itself, be a
source of pleasure for Her, even if She has no interest in such an
expansion, at this time.

IMHO, males need to learn patience ... they need to learn to subdue the male
ego and focus on the wishes of the Goddess, ... to remain quiet ... to
observe and learn ... to accept deference to Her as a natural occurance.
(This could also, sometimes, be taken to apply to males on this List

In so doing, he will grow both in his ability to please Her, and also his
opportunity to experience the joy, the bliss that can occur when the ego is
made quiet and the true essence of the male principle then comes forth. This
is an occasion of joy for all ... it is, really, a natural thing.

Well, I'm not going to go off over your early use of 'always', and I most
certainly agree that most people, probably males above all, should learn
a lot more patience. But I may take some exception with the last sentence,
first quoted paragraph, "At no time should he make the *slightest* effort
to push his desires on Her."

Now, I note also the references to dialogs in which the male can express
himself, presumably in terms of his feelings, needs, and desires, and I do
see where these might be sufficient to allay my concerns. It'd all depend
on the frequency and nature of the dialogs, and how much communication was
allowed on the part of the male....

If they're infrequent enough, then I personally wouldn't think it improper
for him to bring something to the Lady's attention. 'Pushing' his wishes
on her, perhaps, but hopefully not in a demanding way. For instance....
He might be getting stressed out, perhaps from a need for a little more af-
fection, perhaps a need for the catharsis of some pain. If it's been too
long since a period of open communication in which he was formally allowed
to bring such matters up, I wouldn't think it improper for him to subtly
bring it to his Lady's attention - she may be Goddess, but she's probably
not omniscient.

The key, imo, is patience - not expecting instant gratification, and not
bringing it up at the first pangs of longing. Acceding to her will is all
good and fine, yes; indeed, I'd think that he should be going out of his
way to please her, before bringing something up. But it's still a
relationship, one in which both (or all) party's needs must be met, else
the relationship is likely to eventually self-destruct.

Again, I'm not sure that what Kalika wrote, and meant, is contrary to what
I just did; just a matter of slightly differing emphasis.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:24:46 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID:

FEOnly when the younger generation*girls* are
FEstimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic worl
FEwith political power.
FEPlease forward opinions and ideas.

FE_Xantippe Movement_.

I have two daughters, aged 23 & 26, who are both
powerful, well-educated and devout feminists.

Each has devoted her professional life to adressing
the problems of powerlessness in less fortunate
women's lives.

So, we are on our way!

B
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 96 09:42:11 EDT
From: Marissa <103267.1522@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <960827134211_103267.1522_IHH41-1@CompuServe.COM

Xantippe writes:

Only when the younger generation*girls* are
stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic
worldwide movement
with political power.
Please forward opinions and ideas.

_Xantippe Movement_<<br />
Actually, what younger generation Women require are positive Female role models
that demonstrate what is possible in their lives both personally and
professionally. Then and only then may FS grow to its full potential.

I grew up with a mother who was a university professor who also demonstrated
through her support of my actions that anything I wished to try for was
obtainable. Additionally, she was extremely comfortable and confident in her
sexuality and self-image. We shared many happy hours discussing my
hopes/desires/fears for the future as well as a number of conversation about how
better things might be if Women were viewed differently.

It was also obvious now in retrospect that my household was a microcosm of FS in
action as Mom was the breadwinner and Dad deferred to her on most key issues. He
also adored and worshipped her. From this setting I am sure I formulated my
opinions and then added to them relative to FS. I only hope that if and when
someday I have a Daughter, I can be half as successful with her as Mom was with
me.

Marissa

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 07:32:41 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: xantippe@cd-online.nl
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <1996827103422341@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 08/27/96 14:07:07 you wrote:

Only when the younger generation*girls* are
stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic
worldwide movement
with political power.
Please forward opinions and ideas.

_Xantippe Movement_.

Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person, and why
the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her" opinion?

Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume there is
at least one actual person behind this so-called movement, and I'd
ordinarily like to know who the hell it is, but in this case I have been
given no good reason. If "xantippe movement"'s expressed views were at
least fresh, either heartfelt or interesting or both, then maybe I'd be
intrigued, but the way it stands, it looks like some lonely sub trying to
defraud femdom women into corresponding via email.

As for the idea of uniting femdoms and female supremacists worldwide, lots
of us are already working on it and have been for decades, and no Janie-
come-lately who doesn't know her history and who has no name is going to
improve much on the good work that's already been done.



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:32:54 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Message-ID:

FEWe are looking for LADIES/GIRLS for the promotion,set up,and management of a
FEinwhere the later global FS is imitated.
FEPlease respond.
FENo submales..unless intended to sponsor
FEsupport,or contribute.

FE_Xantippe Movement_.

May I have more information, please?
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:50:19 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <32236D9B.1A12@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I agree with Laura....feels like junk mail to me...
Patricia...
introduction would have been nice

lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:

On 08/27/96 14:07:07 you wrote:

Only when the younger generation*girls* are
stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic
worldwide movement
with political power.
Please forward opinions and ideas.

_Xantippe Movement_.

Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person, and why
the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her" opinion?

Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...I assume there is
at least one actual person behind this so-called movement, and I'd
ordinarily like to know who the hell it is, but in this case I have been
given no good reason. If "xantippe movement"'s expressed views were at
least fresh, either heartfelt or interesting or both, then maybe I'd be
intrigued, but the way it stands, it looks like some lonely sub trying to
defraud femdom women into corresponding via email.

As for the idea of uniting femdoms and female supremacists worldwide, lots
of us are already working on it and have been for decades, and no Janie-
come-lately who doesn't know her history and who has no name is going to
improve much on the good work that's already been done.

Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:51:37 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Message-ID: <32236DE9.7D42@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

besides...i am neither a lady or a girl...nor do I aspire to be one....
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEWe are looking for LADIES/GIRLS for the promotion,set up,and management of a
FEinwhere the later global FS is imitated.
FEPlease respond.
FENo submales..unless intended to sponsor
FEsupport,or contribute.

FE_Xantippe Movement_.

May I have more information, please?
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <199608271934.MAA19452@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Noble Patricia wrote:
I agree with Laura....feels like junk mail to me...
Patricia...
introduction would have been nice

lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Thanks for reminding me...who is this "xantippe movement" person, and why
the hell should any true femdoms give a feather or a fig for "her" opinion?

This Xantippe person appears to be a male, 52 years old, over in Europe,
with a persecution complex and plans to come to the USA, who among other
things is looking for some generous soul to house him in the name of
furthering female supremacy. :)

Aren't you glad you asked for an introduction? Note: This information
culled from xantippe's -public- postings on alt.sex.femdom.

Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...

*chuckle* Yep. I thought -I- was pretty arrogant, but.... ;-)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:14:52 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-ID: <3223816C.5A4C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

good information and sleuthing.....good job
Patricia

Chase Vogelsberg wrote:


This Xantippe person appears to be a male, 52 years old, over in Europe,
with a persecution complex and plans to come to the USA, who among other
things is looking for some generous soul to house him in the name of
furthering female supremacy. :)

Aren't you glad you asked for an introduction? Note: This information
culled from xantippe's -public- postings on alt.sex.femdom.

Pretty arrogant shit, posing as a whole damn movement...

*chuckle* Yep. I thought -I- was pretty arrogant, but.... ;-)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Greetings
Message-Id: <199608272049.NAA26998@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marissa and eric wrote:
After awhile lurking and reading the wonderful postings on this list, I
have decided to come out into the open. My name is Marissa and my husband
is eric/maid erica. We have been involved in a FS lifestyle for a number
of years and while I knew there were others like ourselves, I have never
previously felt comfortable being open about it with others. My thanks to
all of you for providing the environment in which to do so. We look
forward to being active participants in the community.

Greetings an' salutations - nice to have you here with us, so to speak. :)
I'm glad to hear you found this a comfortable space / environment; not all
the people here on the list are FS (or even femdom) lifestylers, but I
think you'll find that anyone who isn't at least friendly towards such is
encouraged to leave the list faster than they joined. Then again, you've
been lurking a while, so you already know that. ;)

Blessed be,
Chase

PS: Dee-Anne, see? I -can- post a nice friendly something or other from
time to time.
-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:11:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: A Safe Place? Xantippe's welcome.
Message-Id: <199608272111.OAA23523@netcom14.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2395

Friends-

I am doing my best to stay lurked until after the US Labor Day weekend and
possibly longer, at least until my new PC is here and up and I finish the
work I am doing at the behest of both my SWMBO and my Wise Woman teacher
(otherwise unnamed). I owe some of you private mail for some very kind
posts you have made, and I've got the guilts about that. But several posts
have prompted me to post before I should.

'Twas I who wrote to the Xantippe 'movement' and invited 'them' to join us
here and on alt.women.supremacy. When I did this, I had all the Usenet
information noted by Lawless and had in mind all the usual reservations
expressed here today and some of my own as well: it's the cops, it's a
19-year-old guy in a turned around baseball cap eating chocolate-chip
cookies, it's a 52-old-guy (which makes him almost =my= age, Heaven
forfend), it's the Religious Reich, etc. It even occurred to me that
_mirabile dictu_ they could be who they say they are!

Usually when I privately write to people to tell them about this List, I
make sure to say something like, 'as long as you don't flame and treat
everyone with respect it's a _safe place_.' It has always been a safe
place for me with my _really_ nutty Dead White Male ideas and less than
Ladylike attitude, for which I am grateful to all of you: can't it also
be that way for someone whose only real difficulty seems to be a less
than perfect command of English and a slight cluelessness about the good
work that has been done before, on & off the Net?

Forgive me all this effrontery from a sincere if bratty little brother,
but I find this reception of Xantippe something less than Sisterly.

Besides, I'd like to hear a _lot_ more about their idea of networked
small FS communities, because, like it or not, the time of tribalism is
upon us, folks. Chou-En-Lai said, "Let a hundred flowers bloom."

Peace to all, and welcome Xantippe, whoever you are :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:05:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Working for Her
Message-Id: <199608272205.PAA29673@netcom14.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3597

Thanks to the wonderfully supple mind of the mysteriously named zbobz and
to our new friends Marissa and eric -to whom Welcome!- for this inspired
thread.

THe resaon I haven't been posting here is because I have been up to my
uhm, eyeballs in Working For Her -several Hers, in fact- these last
several weeks. This in fact has been my life for the last 4 or 5 years,
and it is getting more and more like this all the time.

All of my customers/clients except one are now Women, and all of the
people I work with -they can no longer be called 'subcontractors,' can
they?- on different jobs are Women. It's a loose gaggle -call it a guild
if you wish- of mostly post-corporate entrepreneuses who are very aware of
themselves both as Women and as sovereign in the market and elsewhere in
public life. One is my SWMBO of some years, others are longtime friends,
some are fairly new but trusted acquaintances.

This arrangement now extends to well beyond making a living: my spiritual
life, my money (such as it is) and most other aspects of my life are now
in the hands of Women. My MD is still male- a very enlightened one- but
that's about it.

There are other men in this community here and there, but the whole tone
and spirit of all that we do is manifestly Feminine. Not only are we
post-corporate, but live by the values of cooperation, communication,
trust and a loosely circular view of power relationships. Most of us feel
that we have transcended- and will outlive- the old economic model of
competition, covetousness, exclusion, cynicism and hierarchy. We feel that
we actually understand capital and investment in a way that the good ol'
boys -whom I have deserted- never did. And when we're cookin,' the money
is pretty good, too. :)
but
We are not Utopia: Earlier this summer I took a real economic hit because
I strayed back into the old way of thinking about business relationships,
and it will take me a year or two at least to dig out of that little hole.
But this time I have the Big Sisters, the guild, the Tribe, by whatever
name, there to help me and wish me well, and to keep me busy. :)

The Women I work with, and their men, come in all flavors- some are 'in
the Life' with crops and needles, some are a rich French Vanilla; some are
as witchy as any of you, some are Christians; the ages range from late 20s
to about 60, 3 are straight, the majority are richly bi, a strong minority
are joyous, righteous dykes. All are Feminists of one stripe or another
and all have a rich sense of both personal and collective Womanhood. All
have a story of really hard times and have definitely paid their dues. In
other words, they're a lot like You. :) Whatever my current woes, in this
Sisterscape that surrounds me I am richly blessed.

Thanks to Marissa for giving us the 'look and feel' of a Womanshaped
workplace: It's a much saner, calmer place, and my impression is that
males who work for Women are far more realized as individuals and in
their creative echoes than those still trapped in the boys' club. Or so
it is with me (with or without the toenail polish- sounds yummy, I admit).

Free at last,
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:10:45 -0800
From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dungeons for rent?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

jwaren wrote:

does anyone know if it is possible to rent a room or whatever equipped as a
dungeon with all the basics to set the proper mood ? To make this even more
difficult might there be something of this nature located in the midwest ?

I don't know if you can access this publication in the midwest... but there
are a few mags out here that carry ads for this stuff. Check out T&A Times
and Erotica. You also might have some success in the current publication of
"The Black Book", published by Amador Communications, PO Box 31155, San
Fransisco, CA 94131-0155, Phone # (415) 282-7368... about $12-15.

Gotta run... good to see you on this supreme list!

fondly,
Leather

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<whack!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<br />
leather@zephyr.net Leather Me Adult Erotic Leather Toys
\ /
http://www.leatherme.com P.O. Box 86689 \ O /
\/Y\/
http://www.zephyr.net/leather/ Portland, OR )\
_____/__\______
toll free: 1-888-233-2055 97286-0689

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<whack!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<br />

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:28:28 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Just saw 12 Monkeys on PPV
Message-Id: <1996827223021341@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I just saw the movie *12 Monkeys* (finally) and thought it totally rocked.
My kids didn't understand the ending...I said it's a happy ending, because
the lady scientist there on the plane means that they are wise to the bad
guys and will stop them, saving humanity. I believe it's possible that
even the Bruce Willis character can be saved, why not? They go back in
time, don't they? :)

I noticed lately lots of cool female characters in film. All the women in
*Pulp Fiction* weren't your usual molls. We are talking interesting women
characters who show intelligence and grit. They have adventurous lives.
The Doctor played by Madeline Stowe in *12 Monkeys* is an example.



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:33:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Greetings
Message-Id: <199608280333.UAA01042@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 880

Marissa wrote:

After awhile lurking and reading the wonderful postings on this list, I have
decided to come out into the open. My name is Marissa and my husband's name is
eric/maid erica. We have been involved in a FS lifestyle for a number of years
and while I knew there were others like ourselves, I have never previously felt
comfortable being open about it with others. My thanks to all of you for
providing the environment in which to do so. We look forward to being active
participants in the community.

I'm so glad that you feel this list is a comfy place. :) Welcome!

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #191
************************************************

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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 188

Today's Topics:
Re: child abuse fantasy?
Re: Domination in the Grief process
Re: child abuse fantasy?
child abuse fantasy?
Re: child abuse fantasy?
Nice change of pace...thanks
Re: child abuse fantasy?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:50:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-Id: <199608201450.HAA22608@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Christine & David wrote:
I bring to your attention a matter which disturbs me greatly.

I recently received a letter which contained what purports to
be the true story of a Lady named b******. It was apparent that
this story had been posted to Alt Sex Bondage back in 1994.

Was it a cry for help, and if so what should I do about it?

Is it just fantasy, and if so should I do more than I have done?

The story tells the life of a girl sexually abused from the age
of three by her legal guardian in Europe. Handed on to others
to act in service and eventually ending up in apparently joyful
slavery in America.

Well now.... I've known the person pretty well online for a couple of
years, I know her current owners, again online, have seen them interact,
and have a few very good personal friends who know them in person, an' I
know the particular posting of hers which you refer to. I'm kinda curious
as to how / why she sent it to you, but.... It's not a cry for help,
being as she's -quite- happy with her current situation, and it's not a
fantasy story. It's an explanation of who she is, what she is, so's people
can understand where she's coming from.

I give you my reply to the sender below.

I give you my response to your reply.

---- response :
The story, whether fantasy or not, appears to justify child
abuse, by the apparent happy ending of your life in slavery. If
it is a true story, you would be doing the world a favour if you
re-wrote it to remove the 'happy ending'. If it is true you are
breaking no laws that I know of by circulating it.

If it's true, and she rewrites it so's not to bruise your sensibilities,
then it's no longer true, it's no longer a good explanation of her life.
Perhaps history books and biographies should be rewritten to remove all
reference to things that may disturb people? People don't have a divine
mandate to do the world a favour, especially when and if it means denying
who and what they are.

If it is a fantasy, I think you should remove all references to
the period before your induction in France. The child abuse
sections are most disturbing, and prompted me to consider many
and various ways of rescuing you from a life which is built upon
absence of consent.

If it is
fantasy then you run the risk of criminal action being taken
against you.

Blood an' bone, -if- it's a fantasy then the author has a right to
express what is, after all, her fantasy. If it disturbs you, then don't
read it. Reading ASB, ASFD, and even some -good- BDSM fiction such as
Pat Califia can give almost anyone glimpses of things that a number of
people are going to find unpleasant, unenjoyable, and even down right
offensive or disturbing. Personally, I feel quite a bit of distaste at
most of the forced feminization, castration, degradation type of femdom
'fiction' out there - but I don't try and tell the other people they
should change their writing so's it isn't noncon fantasy material.

So far as criminal action, if it's fantasy?
you get the notion that such is any more criminal than anything else on
the internet, under the communications decency act the US was stupid
enough to pass.

If it is a true story, then it is very sad indeed. It is my
opinion that you should only continue in a life of slavery, once
having established that you have the power to choose.

If true I believe you should seek help in establishing a
genuinely free and independent lifestyle. If you then find you
wish to consent to periods of experimental slavery, you would be
freely choosing to do so.

People go round and round on this on ASB, and elsewhere - why should
someone -have- to only do "periods of experimental" submission / slavery,
if they want TPE (Total Power Exchange) or 'real' slavery? The person in
question is very happy in the relationship and lifestyle she has, quite
possibly would -not- be happy if she sought 'help'.

If fantasy, then you should consider very seriously whether you
wish to disturb people, and justify the impression so common in
the media that bdsm is about child abuse and lack of consent. At
the very least the story should be headed up as fantasy.

So, we should only write BDSM light, no severe pain, no brandings,
nothing that the media and the vanilla population might find shocking
or 'sick'? Just a little bondage, tickling maybe, or spanking, but
no crops, no canes, no strapon harnesses and whatnot? Eh, I don't think
so - that's censorship, and in any case, who's writing BDSM fiction /
fantasy material for the media or vanilla types?

------ End of specific commentary

Despite all that I said on the specifics of what you sent my friend, I
myself was somewhat disturbed by things in her past - but they are her
past, unalterable. If I knew the person who sold her into servitude,
and who'd sexually molested her even before that, I'd be inclined to
display extreme violence -- I'm not at all happy that such a thing hap-
pened. I don't think many of the people she gives her background to
are going to react well to it - proof, in my eyes, that she isn't at all
'justifying' child abuse and whatnot.

The key thing is, she's happy - she has owners who care for her very
much, and are proud of her. If someone were to get the authorities to
intervene, she'd be very much -unhappy-. She doesn't want independence,
she doesn't want freedom -- but neither is she without a sense of herself.
She sticks up for herself, and she only submits to those whom her owners
tell her to. Isn't the life for me, and obviously not for you - but then,
it doesn't need to be.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:06:51 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Domination in the Grief process
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960820160651.0069d7f8@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jet wrote:
Please do post any thoughts as they come up. I would be very interested in
any or all thoughts regarding my original post, as well as comments to yours.

Speaking of grief and how domination can help or be effected by it... my
slave husband and I had an extremely difficult and emotionally painful year,
due to life's slings and arrows: His adorable old father died, and soon
after that Grandpa's wife threw the whole family into a battle over the
will. During the months that followed, Bruce suffered a serious back injury
which required surgery and left him a little disabled, possibly for life.
My 16 year old son got into a big fight with me, leaving me bruised and so
outraged that I had to send him (with a big chunk of my prime heartmeat) to
live with my ex-husband. Our home was burglerized. We reeled from one
disaster to another, barely able to catch a breath between, and it certainly
had it's effect on *my* sexual feelings, as well as his. Due partially to
emotional overload and stress, I let my relationship with my lover Jan to
lapse. It has been an act of pure courage just to act cheerful and keep a
brave face, and my libido went into the toilet.

We had sex last night for the first time in a month, and it was no
three-ring circus. It was a simple coupling of two anxious souls groping
for solace. I haven't *felt* like dominating anybody lately: I feel like
being babied, but instead I have to baby everyone else. But things are
getting better now. Our friends have been wonderfully supportive. I
suppose only time can help with some of it.

In our situation it's not the D/S aspect that is our strength now, but the
simple human love and respect we have for each other. We have faith in
*us*, and are using this time to grow stronger as a team of two hearts
hitched together.
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 04:16:40 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-Id: <199608210416.EAA08976@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 20 Aug 96 about Re: child abuse fantasy?

Dear Chase/Lawless,

Thank you for putting my mind somewhat at ease. You have the
advantage over me in knowing the lady and/or her friends.

I was hoping for a reaction such as yours when I made my cry
for help to the list.

I accept a few of the reprimands contained in your response. I
have added some further comments to them, where I think you have
misunderstood or over-reacted.

My mind is now easier in that I can dismiss the idea that the
lady was asking for help to escape from human bondage, even at
this late date.

In some respects I would have preferred this to have been a
fantasy that I could make go away by rebuking and rebuffing it
in the way I did. I recognise that is my problem, and I should
not have lashed out at the victim. I have since apologised for
doing so.

However it must be obvious to all, that it was because of my
uncertainty that I wrote.

sincerely,
David.


Well now.... I've known the person pretty well online for a couple of
years, I know her current owners, again online, have seen them interact,
and have a few very good personal friends who know them in person, an' I
know the particular posting of hers which you refer to. I'm kinda curious
as to how / why she sent it to you,

In response to a letter I submitted to the Thystles mailing
list mentioning I had read someone else's bio, the Lady offered to
send me her bio. I accepted as it would have seemed impolite to
do otherwise.

but.... It's not a cry for help,
being as she's -quite- happy with her current situation, and it's not a
fantasy story. It's an explanation of who she is, what she is, so's people
can understand where she's coming from.

Having received these assurances I have written an apology to
the lady for my earlier reply.


I give you my response to your reply.

---- response :

If it's true, and she rewrites it so's not to bruise your sensibilities,
then it's no longer true, it's no longer a good explanation of her life.
Perhaps history books and biographies should be rewritten to remove all
reference to things that may disturb people?

I was not asking for the removal of the parts that disturbed me.
To the contrary I was asking that the disturbing parts be kept
separate from the joy of human bondage part. The early child abuse
blending into a teenager learning to take eroticised punishments
and admitting they were, to use her word, *fun*, I still find
incredible.

If you take another look at my response you will see that I am
in fact objecting to the rose coloured nature of latter periods
and the ending. I think they detract from what would otherwise
be an horrific story of abuse.

I may be wrong to ask for that separation. But please do not
think that I'm asking for a cleaned up version. I think that
the story of her early life is valuable and puts into
perspective some of the current hysteria over child abuse and
pornography. By this I mean showing that it is not the 'Evil
Internet' that is to blame. In Belgium and throughout Europe
right now there are those in the media giving that impression.

This story took place in the 50's and 60's, before one could
possibly lay the blame on Internet pornographers.

However the post to ASB as I read it does blur the distinction
between right and wrong. It does help people to confuse child
abuse and consensual bdsm. And again I am probably wrong in
wanting a black and white separation. But for me they are
separate.

I realise from the posts to this list, that for others the fact
of earlier abuse may be relevant to their current preferences.
But I believe these to be far from the general rule. I have
certainly read no other post that eroticised the transition from
abused child to consenting adult.

People don't have a divine
mandate to do the world a favour, especially when and if it means denying
who and what they are.

No. And I have no right to ask that of anyone. But what I meant
by doing the world a favour was that it is a story of abuse that
would be better told as abuse. The merging into consensual bdsm is a
tricky area which it might be helpful not to highlight.


If it is a fantasy, I think you should remove all references to
the period before your induction in France. The child abuse
sections are most disturbing, and prompted me to consider many
and various ways of rescuing you from a life which is built upon
absence of consent.

If it is
fantasy then you run the risk of criminal action being taken
against you.

Blood an' bone, -if- it's a fantasy then the author has a right to
express what is, after all, her fantasy. If it disturbs you, then don't
read it.

At no stage did I make any objection on the grounds of my being
disturbed. I mention my disturbance as a warning that others
reacting to such disturbance may take rash action which might
not be in her interest. It is possible that my letter was open
to both interpretations.

With regards to others (not me) avoiding disturbance by not
reading it. How would a person know they are disturbed enough
not to read it, until they read it? No need to answer this
remark as it has nothing to do with the issues. But it perhaps
demonstrates that you were firing from the hip. I am sorry if
something I said caused that response.

Reading ASB, ASFD, and even some -good- BDSM fiction such as
Pat Califia can give almost anyone glimpses of things that a number of
people are going to find unpleasant, unenjoyable, and even down right
offensive or disturbing.

Agreed. But I don't think there is any factual stories of child
abuse presented in an erotic style in such works.

Personally, I feel quite a bit of distaste at
most of the forced feminization, castration, degradation type of femdom
'fiction' out there - but I don't try and tell the other people they
should change their writing so's it isn't noncon fantasy material.

Nor do I. In fact I have recently posted in defence of writing
non-con fantasy material, labelled on the cover as fiction.

This is about non-con _fact_ material being posted in a way that
eroticises it. Less easy to for me at least, to defend.


So far as criminal action, if it's fantasy?
you get the notion that such is any more criminal than anything else on
the internet, under the communications decency act the US was stupid
enough to pass.

Things don't have to be criminal to make them more likely to be
actionable. I've been there. Visited by police for running an
'hotel' that the media reported as Portugal's only SM hotel.
Invited to accompany them to the station to make a statement
regarding whether we were putting on illegal 'shows'.

I suggested risk of criminal action. By that I mean action
being taken by the forces of law and order in a process of
criminal jurisdiction. Not definite criminal offence and
eventual conviction.

Take a look around at the baying wolves in Europe at the moment.
Anything that smacks of child porn runs the risk of criminal
action. (Anything that smacks of sex on the Internet will once
again come under hysterical scrutiny).


If it is a true story, then it is very sad indeed. It is my
opinion that you should only continue in a life of slavery, once
having established that you have the power to choose.

If true I believe you should seek help in establishing a
genuinely free and independent lifestyle. If you then find you
wish to consent to periods of experimental slavery, you would be
freely choosing to do so.

People go round and round on this on ASB, and elsewhere - why should
someone -have- to only do "periods of experimental" submission / slavery,
if they want TPE (Total Power Exchange) or 'real' slavery? The person in
question is very happy in the relationship and lifestyle she has, quite
possibly would -not- be happy if she sought 'help'.

I have a right to my beliefs on this one. It is stated as my
opinion in response to a bio she sent me. I think that anyone
coming from a background such as the one this lady is from
should seriously question whether she wishes to continue in
'real slavery'. The story as posted does not suggest such
questioning ever took place. Of course I realise now from your
defence of the people involved, that such questioning may well
have taken place.


If fantasy, then you should consider very seriously whether you
wish to disturb people, and justify the impression so common in
the media that bdsm is about child abuse and lack of consent. At
the very least the story should be headed up as fantasy.

So, we should only write BDSM light, no severe pain, no brandings,
nothing that the media and the vanilla population might find shocking
or 'sick'?

I don't deserve that! Your words, not mine.

I merely suggested that if it is fantasy it would be better to
head it up as such. Were it fantasy, then presenting it as
truth with stories of enforced sex upon a three year old child
would be wrongfully disturbing. Were such a story headed up as

"fantasy, three year old girl used sexually by adults",

I would avoid it.

Just a little bondage, tickling maybe, or spanking, but
no crops, no canes, no strapon harnesses and whatnot? Eh, I don't think
so - that's censorship, and in any case, who's writing BDSM fiction /
fantasy material for the media or vanilla types?

It is not censorship to head up fantasy material with a
description of what it is. In my opinion non-consensual fantasy
should be described as such whenever there is a likelihood of
doubt.


------ End of specific commentary

Despite all that I said on the specifics of what you sent my friend, I
myself was somewhat disturbed by things in her past - but they are her
past, unalterable. If I knew the person who sold her into servitude,
and who'd sexually molested her even before that, I'd be inclined to
display extreme violence -- I'm not at all happy that such a thing hap-
pened. I don't think many of the people she gives her background to
are going to react well to it - proof, in my eyes, that she isn't at all
'justifying' child abuse and whatnot.

The key thing is, she's happy - she has owners who care for her very
much, and are proud of her. If someone were to get the authorities to
intervene, she'd be very much -unhappy-. She doesn't want independence,
she doesn't want freedom -- but neither is she without a sense of herself.
She sticks up for herself, and she only submits to those whom her owners
tell her to. Isn't the life for me, and obviously not for you - but then,
it doesn't need to be.

But. If that piece gets distributed wildly with the current
climate of FBI net watching, (witness events on aol in recent
times), then her comfortable life may well be disturbed by
someone who does not ask questions first.

I still think it might be wiser to distribute it in some other
form, or in some other media.

sincerely,
David.

http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:08:48 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: child abuse fantasy?
Message-ID:

FEDear b******,

FEThank you for the ***, which I noticed is getting on for two
FEyears old, perhaps longer as the date only refers to when posted
FEto ASB, not when written.

FEIf it is a fantasy, I think you should remove all references to
FEthe period before your induction in France. The child abuse
FEsections are most disturbing, and prompted me to consider many
FEand various ways of rescuing you from a life which is built upon
FEabsence of consent.

FEThe story, whether fantasy or not, appears to justify child
FEabuse, by the apparent happy ending of your life in slavery. If
FEit is a true story, you would be doing the world a favour if you
FEre-wrote it to remove the 'happy ending'. If it is true you are
FEbreaking no laws that I know of by circulating it. If it is
FEfantasy then you run the risk of criminal action being taken
FEagainst you.

David, these things do happen, and while they
are reprehensible and unconscionable, the victims
frequently fixate on the event(s) as their sexuality
develops--often quite happily.

FEIf fantasy, then you should consider very seriously whether you
FEwish to disturb people, and justify the impression so common in
FEthe media that bdsm is about child abuse and lack of consent. At
FEthe very least the story should be headed up as fantasy.

I am vehemently opposed to censorship of any sort.
While I rarely disagree with what you write, this time
I must.


Best regards,
Barbara
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:12:56 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-ID: <321BDE48.5D5A@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am saddened by this thread. Too deep for me. Not knowing the
players or the history I'm left with a hollow feeling. May the
following remind us of childhood's progeny:

When Apollo Mission Astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon,
he not only gave his famous "One Small Step for Man, One Giant Leap for
Mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks - usual com
traffic between him, the other astronauts and Mission Control. Before
he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark "Good luck, Mr.
Gorsky." Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning
some rival Soviet Cosmonaut; however, upon checking, there was no Gorsky
in either the Russian nor American space programs.
Over the years, many people have questioned him as to what the "Good
luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, FL, while
answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26
year old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that
Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the
question. When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his
brother in the backyard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in
front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr and
Mrs. Gorksy. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs.
Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll
get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!"

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:39:21 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Nice change of pace...thanks
Message-ID: <321BE479.7B9E@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Roland--

This story was so sweet and funny. Thank you for bringing a bit of joy
to us. There are many bad things in this world, but there are also many
good things. We cannot always focus on the bad or the good, but it's
nice when it's one extreme or the other, to remind us that it is not ALL
this way.

Jet

When Apollo Mission Astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon,
he not only gave his famous "One Small Step for Man, One Giant Leap for
Mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks - usual com
traffic between him, the other astronauts and Mission Control. Before
he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark "Good luck, Mr.
Gorsky." Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning
some rival Soviet Cosmonaut; however, upon checking, there was no Gorsky
in either the Russian nor American space programs.
Over the years, many people have questioned him as to what the "Good
luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, FL, while
answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26
year old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that
Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the
question. When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his
brother in the backyard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in
front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr and
Mrs. Gorksy. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs.
Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll
get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!"


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:59:16 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (Peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: child abuse fantasy?
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I heard a version of this that says Neil Armstrong was misquoted when he
first walked on the moon. He actually said "This is one small step for man,
one giant leap for Sam Fine."

Why, you ask?

About a week before his mission, Armstrong was in a hotel that had thin
walls. He heard a woman and man arguing. He pressed his head to the wall
and heard the woman say: "Sam Fine! The day a man walks on the moon is the
day I give you a blowjob!"

Peter


I am saddened by this thread. Too deep for me. Not knowing the
players or the history I'm left with a hollow feeling. May the
following remind us of childhood's progeny:

When Apollo Mission Astronaut Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon,
he not only gave his famous "One Small Step for Man, One Giant Leap for
Mankind" statement, but followed it by several remarks - usual com
traffic between him, the other astronauts and Mission Control. Before
he re-entered the lander, he made the enigmatic remark "Good luck, Mr.
Gorsky." Many people at NASA thought it was a casual remark concerning
some rival Soviet Cosmonaut; however, upon checking, there was no Gorsky
in either the Russian nor American space programs.
Over the years, many people have questioned him as to what the "Good
luck, Mr. Gorsky" statement meant. On July 5, in Tampa Bay, FL, while
answering questions following a speech, a reporter brought up the 26
year old question to Armstrong. He finally responded. It seems that
Mr. Gorsky had died and so Armstrong felt he could answer the
question. When he was a kid, Neil was playing baseball with his
brother in the backyard. His brother hit a fly ball which landed in
front of his neighbors' bedroom window. The neighbors were Mr and
Mrs. Gorksy. As he leaned down to pick up the ball, he heard Mrs.
Gorsky shouting at Mr. Gorsky, "Oral sex? Oral sex you want? You'll
get oral sex when the kid next door walks on the moon!"



the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 187

Today's Topics:
Re: Fantasies & oppression
Re: Fantasies & oppression
Re: Unsubscribe
Re: Unsubscribe
Vacation
Corsets and weight-loss.
Re: Fantasies & oppression
Re: Poor me
Re: (Fwd) Re: " The Rules"
Re: Domination in the Grief process
Re: Domination in the Grief process
Re: Domination in the Grief process
Re: uses for men
child abuse fantasy?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 22:58:44 -0700
From: olskool@ix.netcom.com (Tony)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Fantasies & oppression
Message-Id: <199608180558.WAA26950@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com

Chase wrote:

Gabrielle Reece and others like her -have- had a good
effect for many taller girls, who no longer slouch to minimize their
heights, no longer feel that being tall or being muscular or athletic
is unfeminine or undesirable. Femininity wears many faces, desire a
thousand crowns.

But... Propounding even for a moment that such tall athletics types
are the quintessential "New Woman" or ideal female supremacy type is a
slap in the face for all those assertive women who don't fit that
stereotype or don't -want- to fit that image. In effect, it's saying
that those who aren't like that... are somehow less than those who are.
While I doubt if you're saying that or implying it, Tony, there's many
other Amazon admirers who have, and are.


Chase, your points are well taken. I can understand what you mean,
and see the sense in it, while still maintaining my right to possess
such "fantasies", and to tell others about them in the hopes that I
might encounter others who share them (and thus develop some kind of
constructive consensus or dialogue), or who fulfill them, or who might
be influenced, in a gentle way, into seeing the issue the way I do, for
I believe my "fantasies" to be revolutionary and truly "ultra-feminist"
(in my humble opinion, of course!)

I don't see my "propounding" these ideas "even for a minute" as
constituting a slap in the face to anybody, since my mere words
describing my own preferences cannot conceivably bar or deter a truly
strong and assertive woman (or man, for that matter) from maintaining
her or his own self-image and living it. That gives assertive women
too little credit, and assumes they are actually, underneath it all,
weak, vulnerable, and in need of protection (and whose? yours?)

As males relating to assertive women and female-suprmacisist females,
we need to drop that patronizing, chivalrous attitude that says that
women need all this help, that they need males (strong males or even
subservient males) to somehow defend them or their dignity. They can
defend themselves, even when we loathsome, sex-obsessed males rant
about our fantasies. Assertive women are strong enough to deal with
this themselves. Moreover, they are centered enough not to care when
we do it. I would think that a truly "female supremacist" woman
would, in fact, APPLAUD my ideas and fantasies, because they do (in my
humble opinion) bespeak a male's desire to be led by women, to serve
women, and to be dominated by women. The fact that I present my own
fantasy women as both mentally AND physically strong (and not just
mentally strong as mainly depicted by most participants in this mail
group) does not detract from their "female supremacy" appeal. In
fact, I would think that their physical strength actually ENHANCES
their ability to dominate men, and thereby to be invincible, supreme
females. True, every woman cannot be like Gabrielle Reece, who could
easily pound my 5'8" frame into the dirt if she wanted to.
Nonetheless, that remains my fantasy: a beautiful woman who can pound
me into the dirt. And what the hell is wrong with that? As a
fantasy???

Tony

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 04:46:00 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Fantasies & oppression
Message-ID: <32170278.3A@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tony wrote:
That gives assertive women
too little credit, and assumes they are actually, underneath it all,
weak, vulnerable, and in need of protection (and whose? yours?)

to which Patricia replies:
The potential in a femsupremacy world is not that we all become men, or
hard and calloused, but that the world is safe for all of us to be weak
sometimes and vulnerable in safety .. I certainly am weak and vulnerable
at the rim of the grand canyon...
I am certainly vulnerable when I am intimate enough with a male
to feel safe and strong in our power exchange. It is the exchange and
ability to be vulnerable that is known as shared intimacy I believe...a
femsupremacy world would hold more potential for safe shared intimacy
not less of it. The soul is in the vulnerable as much as it is in
strength, and STRENGTH THAT DOES NOT KNOW VULNERABILITY IS TYRANNY.

Tony wrote:
As males relating to assertive women and female-suprmacisist females,
we need to drop that patronizing, chivalrous attitude that says that
women need all this help, that they need males (strong males or even
subservient males) to somehow defend them or their dignity.


to which Patricia replies:

patronizing must go...but I see it being practiced here..when a male
begins to define what an Amazon is for everyone else...yes, you are
entitled to you own fantasies, but to say they are THE true and real
form of Amazons and femsupremacy is like starting a new women's country
based on a monetary system still controlled by men.

I like chivalry. hmmm..there's a good fantasy having two males joust
for the pleasure of serving my dinner that night...but seriously:
I like having car doors open and meals paid for, as a matter of fact, I
demand it. Not because I am too weak to open them myself but because
they are signs of respect.... It's the little things that add up to the
big ones.

tony writes:
They can
defend themselves, even when we loathsome, sex-obsessed males rant
about our fantasies. Assertive women are strong enough to deal with
this themselves. Moreover, they are centered enough not to care when
we do it.

To which Patricia replies:
Centered women care about others and the feelings of others. Don't
confuse female centeredness with male self-centeredness. I care when all
my sisters are not assertive enough to overlook these
male oppressions and it costs them their lives...even one. I will
protect the way for my little sisters until they can gain their own
strength. I am my sisters keeper.
and what happens to your pure Amazon athelete..when gravity sets
in...discard her for newer, tighter model...(that sounds familiar), what
happens when your female athelete gets breast cancer and has to have one
or both removed to save her life....skin oppression, whether it is skin
color or the shape of ones skin..is still oppression.....

Patricia.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:20:13 +0200
From: David
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <32170A7D.348E@club-internet.fr
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

please remove me from your mailing list

thanks

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:38:27 +0800
From: "Abdul Malek Zakaria"
To:
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <19960818144002.AAA19612@default
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

please remove me from your mailing list

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:25:28 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com, femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Vacation
Message-ID: <3218CDB8.42BA@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorry I won't be around to laugh, cry and fume with you for a week.
Promise to read all your masterpieces when I get back!

Have a great week, and obey your betters guys, I will be!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:22:11 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Corsets and weight-loss.
Message-Id: <199608181921.TAA07241@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hello all,

I've just been taking a look at some Bio's from members on the
Submiss mailing list.

One bio from a Lady submissive inspired me to reminisce about
the time my Mistress decided I needed to lose weight.

A simple yet effective way of reducing the appetite is to be
corseted all day, but especially during mealtimes and meals out
at restaurants etcetera.

My Mistress imposed corsetry upon me after the hospital said I
was just too heavy. It cut down on my beer consumption, and
tended to get rid of my habit of finishing a plate, just because
it was there.

It's also very sexy having one's dom tighten the laces after an
inspection reveals a little slackness!

It was so effective, that we had to buy a second smaller corset
after three months because the other one was too big.

Let me also assure any large lady doms, that there
is nothing sexier than a large lady with a voluptuous figure
imposed by corsetry.

So why not impose one on your sub, or try one yourself?

Love,
David.
________________________________________________
Christine & David Stevenson <<br /> http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine <<br />....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....<<br />........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........<<br />Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:22:27 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Fantasies & oppression
Message-Id: <199608181921.TAA07256@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 17 Aug 96 about Re: Fantasies & oppression

Tony said....
True, every woman cannot be like Gabrielle Reece, who could
easily pound my 5'8" frame into the dirt if she wanted to.
Nonetheless, that remains my fantasy: a beautiful woman who can pound
me into the dirt. And what the hell is wrong with that? As a
fantasy???

As a fantasy it sounds great. Next time I'm alone and think I
can get away with it, I might run that one by and see what it
does for me. :-)

Love,
David.
________________________________________________
Christine & David Stevenson <<br /> http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine <<br />....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....<<br />........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........<<br />Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:22:29 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poor me
Message-Id: <199608181921.TAA07264@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 17 Aug 96 about Re: Poor me

Coyote Sings wrote.....

Hmmmmm: not Quogue, then. Not even Suffolk! :

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

(For viewers who have just joined us, we have been having this exchange
since 1992, at least, when I was M***** and she was R***.)

Sounds like Mornington Crescent to me.
Love,
David.
________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />.......http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine........<<br />.Authors of domestic and real life D/s Erotica..<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:22:28 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: " The Rules"
Message-Id: <199608181921.TAA07259@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 18 Aug 96 about Re: (Fwd) Re: " The Rules"

maidpaula said.....

Our superior
gender realizes that "knowledge is power". Grinningly, Paul/maidpaula

Never a truer word spoken in jest.

Love,
David.
________________________________________________
Christine & David Stevenson <<br /> http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine <<br />....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....<<br />........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........<<br />Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:41:35 -0500
From: scott rudolph
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Domination in the Grief process
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960820034135.0069a7c0@mail.execpc.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jet,

After several months of subscribing to this list i finally feel like i have
something to contribute; thank you for that.

i am a sub that has had to deal with grief similar to your Brit's. i've
found that when i'm grieving i pray to myself that my Mistress won't feel
sorry for me and go easy on me.
This is when i hope she will be her very strictest. i don't know how to
explain this; perhaps it is a more powerful distraction from the grief. i'll
have to contemplate this.

i think i would want my Mistress to sympathize with me; but i would hope
that she would expect no less from me than she normally would.

i've just read Your post; if there's is any interest i'll post more thoughts
as they develop. It is such a pleasure to correspond with such wonderful
people.

love
scott

At 05:08 PM 8/16/96 -0700, jet wrote:
Hi all--

My Brit is having a rough time with his father's death. He is the
executor of his father's estate. His mother had a heart attack two
days or so after his father's death. I am hoping she will recover
soon.

I am concerned that even though I will be his Mistress and that is
where he wants to be, what he will be like as far as emotionally
being able to handle that. He has much experience (over 15 years)
of submissiveness (10 of those married to a female supremacist),
so that is not the issue. I wonder if the D/s structure will help
or harm the grief process.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:30:26 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Domination in the Grief process
Message-ID: <32191532.4DE3@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Coyote Sings wrote:

A momentary de-lurk (as I still cope with life on an XT or other peoples'
computers):

Thank you for de-lurking!

I've had it both ways in major grieving and loss situations, and I would
far prefer to take it 'with' any time. The idea of having a stronger,
wiser Woman there to go through it with me makes a vast difference,
especially when I know She respects my grief. The structure a Domina can
impose at a time of desolation can be a real God/es/send, and is a
metaphor for what our grieving world and culture need.

I'm glad that you had the woman there with you... Sorry when you had to
go through it alone. I feel much better knowing that being there for him
as a Domme will help him.

In the past I have been a loner in the way I operate- all caught up in
the 'strong, silent' male myth- th 'Paladin' syndrome- and, aside from it
paying the bills, have lived to regret it for the dehumanizing cost of
being Mr Tough Guy.

Very sad...

'Bottom' line: It's highly appropriate for a Domina to be there for a
grieving submissive male. And very caring. :]

Great! I sent off a nice email giving him some "chores" to do... :D

Thanks, CS, for the great advice!

Jet


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:05:37 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Domination in the Grief process
Message-ID: <32193991.6FDE@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

scott--

After several months of subscribing to this list i finally feel like i have
something to contribute; thank you for that.

I appreciate your input into this very serious subject (at least for me it
is).

i am a sub that has had to deal with grief similar to your Brit's. i've
found that when i'm grieving i pray to myself that my Mistress won't feel
sorry for me and go easy on me.
This is when i hope she will be her very strictest. i don't know how to
explain this; perhaps it is a more powerful distraction from the grief. i'll
have to contemplate this.

I will consider all the you have mentioned and form a plan to keep him in
a very structured/strict environment. He will be starting a demanding new
job and will also be moving from Texas to Seattle in the next week. He must
start his new job Aug. 27, which is coming upon us shortly. He has so much
to deal with.

i think i would want my Mistress to sympathize with me; but i would hope
that she would expect no less from me than she normally would.

I do sympathize and empathize with his grief, but I am not sure of what to
expect from him as this will be our first attempt at one-on-one D/s in
person...It has always been via email or telephone. This will be a huge
challenge for us both.

i've just read Your post; if there's is any interest i'll post more thoughts
as they develop. It is such a pleasure to correspond with such wonderful
people.

Please do post any thoughts as they come up. I would be very interested in
any or all thoughts regarding my original post, as well as comments to yours.

Thank you, scott.

Lady Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:13:03 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID: <32191F2F.76B5@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all--

I'm a bit behind on email. I'm trying to catch up with 100's of
messages and I'm tired.

To me, a man with a sense of himself, who cares about others, who
isn't driven by ego or pride, and at least cares about his appearance
is the way to go. Guys I run into who seem to be looking to be owned
by a woman only so they never have to think for themselves are totally
unattractive, as are guys who care so little about themselves that
they will submit to any woman who will take them (without bothering to
make sure she's not an axe-murderer first). However, guys who feel
that they have to always push and bait a woman to get her to do
"horrible things" to him are also unattractive. Needless to say,
guys who treat women like we're all idiots and should stay in the
kitchen are the least attractive of all. I don't care what they look
like, I see no need to put up with that kind of attitude.

I agree with this very much. I don't want someone who is so vain, they
look at themselves in the mirror all the time, but being bi, I also
don't like the same thing in a woman. I like people who care about
themselves, keep themselves clean and neat, wear clothes that are clean
and neat, people that care about the environment and other societal
concerns (the poor/the homeless/the disadvantages)... If someone has
money, all their hair, a perfect body, a BMW or corvette, status...
that doesn't mean a thing. When I look for someone to dominate...I
look for someone with heart and soul...someone who will communicate
with me about a scene, and thne if something is not within their limits
or boundaries will talk with me about it (haggle with me if you will) to
find a place that meets both our needs. A man/woman may be slim, slender,
small, large, tall, short, etc. But they must not lie to me, must have
integrity and must care about themselves and others.

I don't want someone who will just submit to anything and says he has
no limits or boundaries. I will push limits and boundaries for both
our growth in a healthy bdsm relationship. I watched Tanith Tyrr on
email tell a potential subbie (who told her that he had NO limits or
boundaries) that she would kill him or force him to submit to a gang
rape (ir something like that)...he changed his statement very quickly.
These people are very unattractive because they aren't true to them-
selves at all. They really don't know what they want.

The people that I choose are people that usually have high self-esteem
and know what they want. They know their limits and boundaries and
care about themselves and others. If their esteems may be a little
low or they are very shy, it's possible for both the subbie and the
Domme to grow, and to me, a willingness to grow is very important. A
sense of adventure is important...wanting to learn as well is important.

I will agree with the "some women" part. "Some men" also respect male
aggression and body-building. I wouldn't say, though, that male
aggression equates with body-building. I'm sure not all body-builders
are aggressive people. And, remember, "aggression" isn't necessarily
a bad thing. Overly aggressive is, IMO, a bad thing. Aggression can
simply mean the willingness to start a conversation with someone.

I've been told that I'm a ballsy woman... I've been told I'm a castrating
bitch... I've been told I'm over-sexed... I've been told that I'm
a man-hating feminist (feminazi)... It all depends on who is doing the
labelling. It's the same with types. What is all comes down to is, we
all know what we want and what we don't want, what we like and what we don't
like; and it's only a matter of finding the type of people we mesh with and
get along with. What is my type may not be anyone else's type. So, we
have the option to choose who we want in out life. Let's not worry about
who's right and who's wrong. We all know who's right and who's wrong... ;P

Jet


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:28:52 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: child abuse fantasy?
Message-Id: <199608201326.NAA25108@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Dear femsupremists,

I bring to your attention a matter which disturbs me greatly.

I recently received a letter which contained what purports to
be the true story of a Lady named b******. It was apparent that
this story had been posted to Alt Sex Bondage back in 1994.

Was it a cry for help, and if so what should I do about it?

Is it just fantasy, and if so should I do more than I have done?

I will not post the story here for fear of disturbing others, as
much as it disturbed me. I will only send copies of this story
to those I have come to know and trust, if they wish me to.

The story tells the life of a girl sexually abused from the age
of three by her legal guardian in Europe. Handed on to others
to act in service and eventually ending up in apparently joyful
slavery in America.

I give you my reply to the sender below.

Should I do anything more?

Yours sincerely,
David Stevenson.

-----------------------cut-here---------------------------

Dear b******,

Thank you for the ***, which I noticed is getting on for two
years old, perhaps longer as the date only refers to when posted
to ASB, not when written.

If it is a fantasy, I think you should remove all references to
the period before your induction in France. The child abuse
sections are most disturbing, and prompted me to consider many
and various ways of rescuing you from a life which is built upon
absence of consent.

The story, whether fantasy or not, appears to justify child
abuse, by the apparent happy ending of your life in slavery. If
it is a true story, you would be doing the world a favour if you
re-wrote it to remove the 'happy ending'. If it is true you are
breaking no laws that I know of by circulating it. If it is
fantasy then you run the risk of criminal action being taken
against you.

If it is a true story, then it is very sad indeed. It is my
opinion that you should only continue in a life of slavery, once
having established that you have the power to choose.

If true I believe you should seek help in establishing a
genuinely free and independent lifestyle. If you then find you
wish to consent to periods of experimental slavery, you would be
freely choosing to do so.

If fantasy, then you should consider very seriously whether you
wish to disturb people, and justify the impression so common in
the media that bdsm is about child abuse and lack of consent. At
the very least the story should be headed up as fantasy.

If you wish help in escaping from your current situation, please
drop me a line. In this I am most sincere!

yours sincerely,
David Stevenson.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #187
************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 189

Today's Topics:
Child support.
Stretching limits
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Bringing It all back Home
Message to love one
Re: Her ! Here ! on Books
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Stretching limits
Re: Her ! Here ! on Books

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 17:37:15 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Fem. suprem."
Subject: Child support.
Message-Id: <199608221536.RAA20544@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a quote from the The Report of the Platform Committee to the
1996 Democratic National Convention. The entire document is available at
http://www.democrats.org/party/convention/pltdft96-2.html.

[...]

The Clinton Administration is working to put wanted lists of parents
who owe child support in the post office and on the Internet. President
Clinton and Democrats in Congress insisted that the toughest possible
child support enforcement be part of the new welfare reform plan --
including the President's plan to deny drivers licenses and
professional licenses to people who do not pay their child support.

[...]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:31:05 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (Peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Stretching limits
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I would appreciate any thoughts on a submissive humbly and gently
stretching the limits of a dominant.

Would a dominant take this as a sign that her submissive is yearning to
learn more about his submissiveness or a sign of his impudence? Would she
treat this perhaps as a game or amusement or as an act of insolence?

I realize that this is a broad question, but, again, would appreciate
everyone's thoughts.

Peter



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:11:56 -0700
From: Patricia
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-ID: <321CF74C.72C0@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia wrote:

don't you do check in's from time to time....talk about fantasies and
scenes. I always do this with subs. whenever I like his fantasies I
make sure to incorporate them into our play...so we both get pleased.
moi

Peter wrote:

I would appreciate any thoughts on a submissive humbly and gently
stretching the limits of a dominant.

Would a dominant take this as a sign that her submissive is yearning to
learn more about his submissiveness or a sign of his impudence? Would she
treat this perhaps as a game or amusement or as an act of insolence?

I realize that this is a broad question, but, again, would appreciate
everyone's thoughts.

Peter

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:16:03 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-ID: <321CDC23.42B2@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stretching the limits is part of the game. If a Domina has good
communication with her sub/slave then she is already hearing about
his fantasies and trying to incorporate them into the scene they
have. If the sub wants it treated as impudence, I'm sure a Domme
would go along with that (or as if it was a game or amusement or an
act of insolence). Good communication is the key here, regardless
of how the submissive may feel.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:46:19 +0000
From: "Empusae"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-Id: <199608222347.XAA188509@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:16:03 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com

Stretching the limits is part of the game. If a Domina has good
communication with her sub/slave then she is already hearing about
his fantasies and trying to incorporate them into the scene they
have. If the sub wants it treated as impudence, I'm sure a Domme
would go along with that (or as if it was a game or amusement or an
act of insolence). Good communication is the key here, regardless
of how the submissive may feel.

Jet


Im very new to the list, but certainly not to bdsm as a lifestyle, I
am wondering if others see this only as a game?

Empusae

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:25:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Peter wrote:

I would appreciate any thoughts on a submissive humbly and gently
stretching the limits of a dominant.

Would a dominant take this as a sign that her submissive is yearning to
learn more about his submissiveness or a sign of his impudence? Would she
treat this perhaps as a game or amusement or as an act of insolence?

Peter,

My feeling is that unless the Domme desires a "worthless worm"
sort of submissive, she will be very interested in stretching both their
limits, and will look to her chosen one for assistance in doing so.
To carry this thought from FD to FS, the women on this list are
always receptive to reasoned ideas from the men who post here. We all
have much to teach each other, and the principles of Female Supremacy are
of great benefit to both sexes.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:02:22 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-ID: <321D031E.5D4C@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Empusae-

I use "game" as a word for many things... This is not to bemistaken
for just a game. As I've been involved in the lifestyle for over a
year...I do not see bdsm as just a game. Do not take everything you
read so literally.

Lady Jet


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Bringing It all back Home
Message-Id: <199608230220.TAA03549@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5738

Oldlow@aol.com wrote:

I read with interest your comments about FS and the Internet. It strikes me
that you've raised a very important point. You suggested that the wealth of
material relating to FS on the net may have a considerable effect upon women
who are wondering whether of not the Femdom way of life would suit them. On
the other side of the fence, so to speak, I think the same profusion of
stories and information might have a beneficial effect upon my sex.

I certainly agree. I've spoken online to many a man who was
uncomfortable with his inclinations toward submission, feminization,
or simply wanting to be with a woman who had a mind of her own. It's
great to watch these fellows learn that they're not the only person in
the world who feel the way they do, and that in fact there are many,
many others.

Here I
have to speak with diffidence, because I really have only my own experience
as a source, but it seems to me that other men may have the same difficulty I
did in coming to terms with their own inherent feminine nature. I'm nearly
seventy years old, so I grew up in a day when even schools were segregated
by sex. Boys were brought up with a plethora of subtle and not-so-subtle cues
suggesting that only virile masculine behaviour was acceptable. Crying, to
site a well-known example, was regarded as feminine, and hence taboo.
I don't mean to belabour the point, but surely many boys must have discovered
that they fitted this mold imperfectly, and then only at the cost of
considerable emotional pain. I don't speak about homosexual men of my
generation, of course, because it would be presumptuous in the extreme to
suggest that their often tortuous experiences could be fitted onto some sort
of linear sexual scale, with M at one end and F at the other.

I think it's wonderful to have such a wide range of people, in terms
of age, country, and gender. The more perspectives we can look at
today's problems from, the better ideas for solutions we may come up
with. IMO, of course.

My impression is that the boys of your generation tried to fit that
mold as best they could, because they really didn't see anything but a
narrow range of choices. So, they pushed their feelings down, put on
a mask, and went on with their lives as best they could. Though, it's
hard to really know how much went on behind closed doors. There's a
book called "Fetish," by Valerie Steele (not sure of the spelling)
that covers the history of fetish wear. It's quite interesting, and
covers hundreds of years of goings on.

Rather, it seems to me, that many boys to this day are unsuccessful in their
first attempts to bury their feminine tendencies when these surge up in
adolescence. That only guarantees that they will surface again. In the end,
they will have to work it out for themselves, but invariably success will
require a female guide, perhaps several of them. Many a wife must know what I
mean. Others might be surprised at the extent to which some men may be found
eager to share their interests and pursuits.

I had a male friend in junior high (I'm a gen-xer) who was fairly
feminine. Rumors were all over the place...he was gay, he was bi.
They got bigger and wilder as we hit high school, but we lost touch.
I never quite knew what his sexual orientation was, I just never
bothered to ask. I'm not sure he knew, or perhaps he was afraid to
think about it. Heck, Vancouver's star soccer player (Pavel Bure) has
such dark lips contrasting with his pale face that a lot of people
think he wears lipstick. However, I've never seen it come up in an
interview, so I have no idea of what he thinks about that. :)

The stigma is certainly still there and still has to be overcome, even
in these "more enlightened times." And, it certainly helps to have a
woman as a guide when it comes to following one's feminine nature.
However, there are certain aspects where male crossdressers, for
example, excell. The ones I've spoken to tend to know far more about
materials and makeup than I ever will. :) There is, of course, much
more to the feminine, but that's as far as some men care to go. I
think learning to listen to one's feminine side is more of an exercise
in opening the heart to empathy, and learning to express emotion.
Only so much of that can be learned from books and magazines, IMO.

The suggestion that society condones, even accepts, this essential masculine
component, the feminine in all of us, comes best over the Internet. It can be
a very private discovery in the beginning, which is probably all for the
best. Interest brings more revelation and encouragement. I think it is a
profoundly hopeful development.

Agreed. It's much easier to try to understand who you are if you can
research where no one can see you. It's important to have a safe
space to digest the information you come across. Once you've digested
it and have questions, or just want to see what other people with the
same inclinations might be like, then you can use the Internet to go
into Usenet, irc, or mailing lists such as this one and slowly begin to
participate. Yet, still without having to sit in a room with the
people you still find a bit frightening. The Internet involves a kind
of safe "One Step at a Time" approach. Hopefully, those steps will
slowly lead more and more men to accept their feminine sides as part
of their whole beings.

Dee-Ann


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 07:04:10 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (Peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Message to love one
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

For those who enjoy sending electronic postcards, in addition to domination
and submission, I suggest a vist to:

http://www.best.com/~paddynet/bin/postbox/index.html

Click on the option to send a card, and then the link that say Tickle!

Have fun.
Peter


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:40:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: kalika@netbox.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Her ! Here ! on Books
Message-Id: <199608232140.OAA04072@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1058

Kalika wrote:

A strong round of Here ! Here ! for the reference to Barbara G. Walker's
work (She also has a lovely fiction work "Amazon , A Novel" which is very
"current").

Also the same for *any* work by Mary Daly !!!

I would like to add that "The Castration of Oedipus, ..Feminism,
Psychoanalysis, and the Will to Power", by Carla J. Ferstman and J.C. Smith
(NYU Press), and Smith's earlier work, "Psychoanalytic Roots of Patriarchy
,... The Neurotic Foundation of Social Order", are both *very* insightful
titles.

Also, a work that touches very much of the current movement to the
Matriarchal is "Gospel of the Goddess" by Pamela Suffield.

Another book I find helpful is "Women Who Run with the Wolves" by
Clarissa Pinkola Este's, Ph.D.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:21:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-Id: <199608232321.QAA04188@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1047

Peter wrote:

I would appreciate any thoughts on a submissive humbly and gently
stretching the limits of a dominant.

Would a dominant take this as a sign that her submissive is yearning to
learn more about his submissiveness or a sign of his impudence? Would she
treat this perhaps as a game or amusement or as an act of insolence?

I think this is highly dependant on the wishes of the dominant,
especially in a femsuprem environment. If a woman would like to have
her limits expanded, by trying things she's never quite been sure that
she'd like, that's one thing. I think a sub pushing and pushing for
his owner/Lady/etc. to do something to him that makes her highly
uncomfortable after she's already said she doesn't care to do it is
wrong.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 00:57:01 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-Id: <199608240055.AAA26289@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 22 Aug 96 about Re: Stretching limits


Im very new to the list, but certainly not to bdsm as a lifestyle, I
am wondering if others see this only as a game?

Empusae

Welcome, stick around a while. It gets interesting.

I think you will find that most on this list see Fem Supremacy
as anything but a game.

Many see that Fem-Dom can involve playing games. But rarely (if
at all) is it seen as _only_ a game.

It's just a question of semantics :-)

Love,
David.
________________________________________________
Christine & David Stevenson
http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine
....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....
........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 20:07:27 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching limits
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960824000727.0068482c@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Peter wrote:

I would appreciate any thoughts on a submissive humbly and gently
stretching the limits of a dominant.

Encouragement is one thing, nagging is something else. Almost all dominants
like encouragement, a little positive feedback.

I think this is highly dependant on the wishes of the dominant,
especially in a femsuprem environment. If a woman would like to have
her limits expanded, by trying things she's never quite been sure that
she'd like, that's one thing. I think a sub pushing and pushing for
his owner/Lady/etc. to do something to him that makes her highly
uncomfortable after she's already said she doesn't care to do it is
wrong.

Dee-Ann

I agree with Dee-Ann. I have been pushed a lot more than I have been
persueded, and persuesion is better. The problem arises when you have a
dominant who is not into what you are into. If you are into the same
things, she won't need more than you saying, "My adored lady...if you wish
to really test me, I would appreciate it!"
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 08:12:12 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (Peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Her ! Here ! on Books
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This thread must have begun while I was on vacation. Consequently, I don't
know anything about it.
However, it affords me the opportunity to suggest a nice and entertaining
read for a woman who has been in an abusive marital relationship.
The book is Striptease by Carl Hiassen (or Hiaasen, I forget).
Peter


Kalika wrote:

A strong round of Here ! Here ! for the reference to Barbara G. Walker's
work (She also has a lovely fiction work "Amazon , A Novel" which is very
"current").

Also the same for *any* work by Mary Daly !!!

I would like to add that "The Castration of Oedipus, ..Feminism,
Psychoanalysis, and the Will to Power", by Carla J. Ferstman and J.C. Smith
(NYU Press), and Smith's earlier work, "Psychoanalytic Roots of Patriarchy
,... The Neurotic Foundation of Social Order", are both *very* insightful
titles.

Also, a work that touches very much of the current movement to the
Matriarchal is "Gospel of the Goddess" by Pamela Suffield.

Another book I find helpful is "Women Who Run with the Wolves" by
Clarissa Pinkola Este's, Ph.D.

Dee-Ann

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #189
************************************************

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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 190

Today's Topics:
Working for Her
Re: Her ! Here ! on Books
Stretching Limits:
Re: Stretching Limits:
Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???
Re: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???
Re: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???
Greetings
Re: Working for Her
Dungeons for rent?
FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Re: Dungeons for rent?
Internet.a means to global FS
Re: Stretching Limits:
Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:38:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: zbobz
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Working for Her
Message-Id: <199608261838.LAA07543@norway.it.earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A couple of postings on the Femdom newsgroup recently were by men seeking
employment in real world jobs under a Woman. The postings seemed real. I
don't remember exactly what they promised, but the idea was that they would
uncomplainingly accept Her use and abuse (in the normal work place sense),
and dedicate themselves to working for Her benefit.

Of course, hiring is trickly business, and there would be all the ordinary
problems with having the right skills and fit for a given situation, but
there is something about the concept that captures the imagination.

The thing is that the work place is already an arena of domination and
submission, ...so commonplace in our experience that we hardly even notice
it (unless something really egregious happens). It is not hard to imagine a
man in a submissive relationship with a dominant Woman boss that would seem
quite ordinary, and could be acted out in a public without much notice at all.

The idea seems a very neat implementation of Female supremacy ideas in the
real world. It works to the economic empowerment of Women; it fits
seamlessly with conventional institutions; it provides an effective
mechanism by which a Woman can manage Her subordinant males; because it is
acted out publicly it provides role models for other Women and men. The
idea seems to have a lot of potential.

zbobz

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:15:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Her ! Here ! on Books
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Kalika wrote:

I would like to add that "The Castration of Oedipus, ..Feminism,
Psychoanalysis, and the Will to Power", by Carla J. Ferstman and J.C. Smith
(NYU Press), and Smith's earlier work, "Psychoanalytic Roots of Patriarchy
,... The Neurotic Foundation of Social Order", are both *very* insightful
titles.

It is only fair to mention that this stuff is "theory." If you are deeply
concerned about the conflict between psychoanalysis, feminist theory, and
post-modernism, take a look. If you've read Hegel, Heidegger, Nietzsche,
Freud, Derrida, Lacan, and Foucault and still retain some semblance of
sanity (no easy task) then you should have no trouble. If you are also a
scientist or sympathetic to science I take back the previous sentence.

"Theory" is interesting, in part because like science, theology and
various schools of philosophy (analytic, Hegelian, etc.) it presumes
itself to be in possession of a methodology and viewpoint which subsumes
all others and is in a privileged position to examine and criticize
anything, including other things which assert the same privilege.

Don't argue with "theory." If you want to mess around, try writing
complete nonsense and getting it published as a serious work of "theory,"
as an NYU physics professor recently did in Social Text.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:02:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kalika
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Stretching Limits:
Message-Id: <199608262102.VAA04897@netbox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dee-Ann posted the following which I was pleased to see stated.

She said:

I think this is highly dependant on the wishes of the dominant,
especially in a femsuprem environment. If a woman would like to have
her limits expanded, by trying things she's never quite been sure that
she'd like, that's one thing. I think a sub pushing and pushing for
his owner/Lady/etc. to do something to him that makes her highly
uncomfortable after she's already said she doesn't care to do it is
wrong.

Dee-Ann


I would concur most heartily with the above, especially the first sentence,
where the word "Highly" is if anything, IMO, an understatement. My
perspective / understanding / belief has always been that, in a Femsprem
"environment", it is *always* the wishes of the Goddess that are to be met,
fullfilled. If not, how then can it be called "Femsuprem".

( "always" ....Now, now, don't go off the deep end ... this isn't the
biggest lie of FemDom which is of course, "Whatever You desire Mistress...".
Consensual reality must always be firmly in place. That said, what is
important, is the concept of the interaction of, the Feminine Principle and
the male principle.)

The word "environment" ... I have taken this to indicate something more
expansive in nature, than a meer "scene" ... (a scene being something that
occurs in a professional setting or in private, primarily for fun /
stimulation). Environment has a flavor of greater commitment ... of greater
longevity. (If Dee-Ann did not have such a concept in mind, I apologise for
my assumptions.)

I feel that it is solidly the responsibility of the male, as the
representative of the male principle, to accede to the wishes / desires of
the Goddess. In doing so, he may, if it has been previously agreed to, or if
this is an occasion of "open" dialog ... he may then offer to Her, his
readiness to assist Her in the expansion of Her "horizons". However, if this
has not been agreed to previously, and it is not now a time of open dialog /
discussion, then he must wait until such a time occurs. At no time, should
he make even the *slightest* effort to "push" his desires / wishes, on Her.

If She allows him to make this offering, but She declines for whatever
reason (an no reason need be given IMHO), the matter is *closed* until the
next scheduled "dialog". Certainly, a Goddess may find pleasure in knowing
that Her male wishes to "extend" himself in order to please / pleasure Her
... and this knowledge, when properly offered, can in and of itself, be a
source of pleasure for Her, even if She has no interest in such an
expansion, at this time.

IMHO, males need to learn patience ... they need to learn to subdue the male
ego and focus on the wishes of the Goddess, ... to remain quiet ... to
observe and learn ... to accept deference to Her as a natural occurance.
(This could also, sometimes, be taken to apply to males on this List

In so doing, he will grow both in his ability to please Her, and also his
opportunity to experience the joy, the bliss that can occur when the ego is
made quiet and the true essence of the male principle then comes forth. This
is an occasion of joy for all ... it is, really, a natural thing.

Blessings to All

Kalika

P.S., watch that pesky "mail to" thing



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:02:05 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (Peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching Limits:
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I thank everyone who replied to my posting about stretching limits. What I
wish to know is to what limits should a submissive go to impress upon a
woman to enter into a dom-sub relationship with him?
If the woman has not responded to the male's pleas, yet has left a door
open for further messages, should the male continue?
Should he continue even though he has not received any sort of message from
the woman? Or should he give up, possibly because he feels there is no
hope, or, of course, because he does not want to waste her time?

Peter
Dee-Ann posted the following which I was pleased to see stated.

She said:

I think this is highly dependant on the wishes of the dominant,
especially in a femsuprem environment. If a woman would like to have
her limits expanded, by trying things she's never quite been sure that
she'd like, that's one thing. I think a sub pushing and pushing for
his owner/Lady/etc. to do something to him that makes her highly
uncomfortable after she's already said she doesn't care to do it is
wrong.

Dee-Ann


I would concur most heartily with the above, especially the first sentence,
where the word "Highly" is if anything, IMO, an understatement. My
perspective / understanding / belief has always been that, in a Femsprem
"environment", it is *always* the wishes of the Goddess that are to be met,
fullfilled. If not, how then can it be called "Femsuprem".

( "always" ....Now, now, don't go off the deep end ... this isn't the
biggest lie of FemDom which is of course, "Whatever You desire Mistress...".
Consensual reality must always be firmly in place. That said, what is
important, is the concept of the interaction of, the Feminine Principle and
the male principle.)

The word "environment" ... I have taken this to indicate something more
expansive in nature, than a meer "scene" ... (a scene being something that
occurs in a professional setting or in private, primarily for fun /
stimulation). Environment has a flavor of greater commitment ... of greater
longevity. (If Dee-Ann did not have such a concept in mind, I apologise for
my assumptions.)

I feel that it is solidly the responsibility of the male, as the
representative of the male principle, to accede to the wishes / desires of
the Goddess. In doing so, he may, if it has been previously agreed to, or if
this is an occasion of "open" dialog ... he may then offer to Her, his
readiness to assist Her in the expansion of Her "horizons". However, if this
has not been agreed to previously, and it is not now a time of open dialog /
discussion, then he must wait until such a time occurs. At no time, should
he make even the *slightest* effort to "push" his desires / wishes, on Her.

If She allows him to make this offering, but She declines for whatever
reason (an no reason need be given IMHO), the matter is *closed* until the
next scheduled "dialog". Certainly, a Goddess may find pleasure in knowing
that Her male wishes to "extend" himself in order to please / pleasure Her
... and this knowledge, when properly offered, can in and of itself, be a
source of pleasure for Her, even if She has no interest in such an
expansion, at this time.

IMHO, males need to learn patience ... they need to learn to subdue the male
ego and focus on the wishes of the Goddess, ... to remain quiet ... to
observe and learn ... to accept deference to Her as a natural occurance.
(This could also, sometimes, be taken to apply to males on this List

In so doing, he will grow both in his ability to please Her, and also his
opportunity to experience the joy, the bliss that can occur when the ego is
made quiet and the true essence of the male principle then comes forth. This
is an occasion of joy for all ... it is, really, a natural thing.

Blessings to All

Kalika

P.S., watch that pesky "mail to" thing


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 21:40:41 -0400
From: NeedDomFem@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???
Message-ID: <960826213956_510483197@emout16.mail.aol.com

My Mistress/Wife and I are searching for a resort that specializes in
providing a D/S type of environment for vacationing couples. Does anyone
know of any resorts of this type?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:16:55 -0800
From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My Mistress/Wife and I are searching for a resort that specializes in
providing a D/S type of environment for vacationing couples. Does anyone
know of any resorts of this type?

Our own Christine and David Stevenson have just the place!!! Common'
David... tell him all about it!!!

BTW, I'm new here but it's a small world!
Leather

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<whack!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<br />
leather@zephyr.net Leather Me Adult Erotic Leather Toys
\ /
http://www.leatherme.com P.O. Box 86689 \ O /
\/Y\/
http://www.zephyr.net/leather/ Portland, OR )\
_____/__\______
toll free: 1-888-233-2055 97286-0689

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<whack!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<br />

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:03:55 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Adult D/S Resorts for Couples???
Message-ID: <3222578B.5BEE@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

NeedDomFem@aol.com wrote:

My Mistress/Wife and I are searching for a resort that specializes in
providing a D/S type of environment for vacationing couples. Does anyone
know of any resorts of this type?


Christine & David Stevenson
Organization: Holiday Villas

They have a place in Portugal.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 96 03:49:22 EDT
From: Marissa <103267.1522@CompuServe.COM
To: Femsupremacy
Subject: Greetings
Message-ID: <960827074922_103267.1522_IHH36-1@CompuServe.COM

After awhile lurking and reading the wonderful postings on this list, I have
decided to come out into the open. My name is Marissa and my husband's name is
eric/maid erica. We have been involved in a FS lifestyle for a number of years
and while I knew there were others like ourselves, I have never previously felt
comfortable being open about it with others. My thanks to all of you for
providing the environment in which to do so. We look forward to being active
participants in the community.

Marissa and maid erica

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 27 Aug 96 04:47:44 EDT
From: Marissa <103267.1522@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Working for Her
Message-ID: <960827084744_103267.1522_IHH41-1@CompuServe.COM

Recently, zbobz wrote:

A couple of postings on the Femdom newsgroup recently were by men seeking
employment in real world jobs under a Woman. The postings seemed real. I
don't remember exactly what they promised, but the idea was that they would
uncomplainingly accept Her use and abuse (in the normal work place sense),
and dedicate themselves to working for Her benefit.

Of course, hiring is trickly business, and there would be all the ordinary
problems with having the right skills and fit for a given situation, but
there is something about the concept that captures the imagination.

The thing is that the work place is already an arena of domination and
submission, ...so commonplace in our experience that we hardly even notice
it (unless something really egregious happens). It is not hard to imagine a
man in a submissive relationship with a dominant Woman boss that would seem
quite ordinary, and could be acted out in a public without much notice at all.

The idea seems a very neat implementation of Female supremacy ideas in the
real world. It works to the economic empowerment of Women; it fits
seamlessly with conventional institutions; it provides an effective
mechanism by which a Woman can manage Her subordinant males; because it is
acted out publicly it provides role models for other Women and men. The
idea seems to have a lot of potential.

zbobz<<br />
You are absolutely correct in that the workplace is an arena of domination and
submission. The work relationships, the language are all examples. I met My
husband when he was working for me. What started as a boss/subordinate
relationship at work became over time a Mistress/maid relationship on the
personal front. The interesting part when we were dating and before we got
married (and he had to transfer to another work group as spouses cannot report
to one another), was that the personal and the professional power elements
merged into one. I used to suitably attire him before work (e.g., feminine
undergarments, very nice toenail polish, etc.) which I knew would make him
effectively embarassed and more submissive. Then at work, I would also be the
one that was the ultimate judge of his work efforts. The combination of both
elements was extremely effective in making him understand and internalize FS
better. I must say he has been and remains a very apt student. he has also
continued to distinguish himself at work (e.g., high job evaluations) where he
also has a Woman boss in his new work group. I like to believe My "guidance" had
something to with this (s).

Marissa

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:18:55 +0000
From: John Waren
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Dungeons for rent?
Message-ID: <19960827111853.AAA29259@LOCALNAME
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

i have been following the thread about D/s resorts with some interest.
(sorry David, you are just to far away) and am curious.

does anyone know if it is possible to rent a room or whatever equipped as a
dungeon with all the basics to set the proper mood ? To make this even more
difficult might there be something of this nature located in the midwest ?

i would love to find something like this for my Mistress and haven't a clue
how to start looking or if it even exists.

john

The property of Mistress Elle


JWaren@worldnet.att.net

Whips & Chains ? Sorry, thats a hardware problem.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:45:32 +0200
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: FS-minicommunities depend on LADIES effords
Message-Id: <199608271145.EAA22450@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We are looking for LADIES/GIRLS for the promotion,set up,and management of a worldwide network of the said communities
inwhere the later global FS is imitated.
Please respond.
No submales..unless intended to sponsor
support,or contribute.

_Xantippe Movement_.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dungeons for rent?
Message-Id: <199608271146.EAA08506@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JWaren asked:
does anyone know if it is possible to rent a room or whatever equipped as a
dungeon with all the basics to set the proper mood ? To make this even more
difficult might there be something of this nature located in the midwest ?

It's certainly possible, yes -- I know of a number of places which'll allow
access to their dungeon facilities, under one circumstance or another. It
tends to help if you're involved in the local scene and/or at least
acquainted with people associated with the establishment.

As far as whether there's a place in the midwest, well, the midwest is a
pretty big range of territory. I'm almost certain there's BDSM groups and
/ or professional shops in the midwest, but you'd really have to look to
find one in your local area. Some of the ones I know of are available for
more or less open hire; others are loaned out as friendly gestures. Either
way, your best bet is to become better acquainted with what's in your area;
if you're in the real boonies, you probably want to start looking in those
cities near you of a reasonable size.

You might also want to consider posting a query to a.s.b or a.s.fd asking
if people know of any BDSM groups or professional dominatrixs / dungeons
in your area. A lot more people read those groups, so you've a better
chance of finding someone with knowledge about your area, whether it be
dungeon facilities or friendly groups of scene people.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:58:57 +0200
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Internet.a means to global FS
Message-Id: <199608271158.EAA23255@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Using -internet- to accomplish worldwide FS
is a important aim of Xantippe Movement.
Let us join and work it out.

_Xantippe movement_.




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Stretching Limits:
Message-Id: <199608271159.EAA09239@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Peter (kriv@mail.interlog.com) wrote:
I thank everyone who replied to my posting about stretching limits. What I
wish to know is to what limits should a submissive go to impress upon a
woman to enter into a dom-sub relationship with him?
If the woman has not responded to the male's pleas, yet has left a door
open for further messages, should the male continue?
Should he continue even though he has not received any sort of message from
the woman? Or should he give up, possibly because he feels there is no
hope, or, of course, because he does not want to waste her time?

If she hasn't given some sign of interest, of welcoming your approach of
seeking a D/s relationship with her, I'd recommend -not- going very far
in attempting to persuade her. My reasoning is that if she's someone whom
you approached knowing she was into D/s and she hasn't responded favorably,
quite likely she's not interested in you as a sub - certain women aren't
known for having a problem with saying 'yes'.
wants you, I suspect you'll find out. ;)

On the other hand, if she's someone you more or less approached from out
of the blue, it's quite possible she's not real comfortable with the idea.
If she likes you, she might continue listening, possibly even play along
for a bit -- but it won't be because she wants it, it'll be because she's
doing it for you, because you pushed for it.

If she -is- intrigued, and wants to hear more, she can bring up the topic
in the future, when / if she wants to discuss it further. She already
knows of your interest in it, an' well, going to extremes to persuade her
seems kinda distastefully pushy, especially considering what it is you're
looking for.

So me, I'd say you should give up, not so much from a total lack of hope,
or even from a desire not to waste her time, but out of consideration for
her preferences and desires.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:07:07 +0200
From: xantippe@cd-online.nl (xantippe)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Global FS depends on motivated GIRLS
Message-Id: <199608271206.FAA24154@davinci.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Only when the younger generation*girls* are
stimulated to Female Superiority, FS wil be able to expand to a dynamic worldwide movement
with political power.
Please forward opinions and ideas.

_Xantippe Movement_.

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #190
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 186

Today's Topics:
Re: Domination in the Grief process
Model Femdoms? (was Re: Women and physical type (correction!))
Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: Private fantasies and "internal censorship"
Re: " The Rules"
Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: unsubscribe
Re: Bringing It all back Home
Re: Poor me
(Fwd) Re: " The Rules"
Model Femdoms? (was Re: Women and physical type (c
Re: Poor me
Re: Bringing It all back Home
Re: Poor me
Re: Bringing It all back Home
Re: (Fwd) Re: " The Rules"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 18:22:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Domination in the Grief process
Message-Id: <199608170122.SAA12789@netcom5.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1721

A momentary de-lurk (as I still cope with life on an XT or other peoples'
computers):

Jet wrote


My Brit is having a rough time ,,,

Does anyone or has anyone had the experience of Domming someone or
being Dommed while the sub/slave was in the grief process? If so,
what has helped or harmed the sub/slave? This is an area that I
have not heard anything about yet on this group. I hope, whether
you are a Dominant or a submissive, you may be able to help me
with this one.

I've had it both ways in major grieving and loss situations, and I would
far prefer to take it 'with' any time. The idea of having a stronger,
wiser Woman there to go through it with me makes a vast difference,
especially when I know She respects my grief. The structure a Domina can
impose at a time of desolation can be a real God/es/send, and is a
metaphor for what our grieving world and culture need.

In the past I have been a loner in the way I operate- all caught up in
the 'strong, silent' male myth- th 'Paladin' syndrome- and, aside from it
paying the bills, have lived to regret it for the dehumanizing cost of
being Mr Tough Guy.

'Bottom' line: It's highly appropriate for a Domina to be there for a
grieving submissive male. And very caring. :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 20:06:23 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Model Femdoms? (was Re: Women and physical type (correction!))
Message-ID: <3215372F.858@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorceress--

Kudos to you, Sistah. I used to model in NYC too--
for Johnathon Logan and some free-lance petite
show-room and catalog work. $50-$100 bux an hour
was intoxicating money!

I modeled in Seattle for Nordstroms, I. Magnin and a few
other places as well. I find it very interesting how many
of us did modelling and such body image professions. I
never mentioned that because I thought I would be berated
for "selling" my body...

Today however, I can make three or four times that,
by beating the shit out of some obese power-monger
with more money than testosterone--and do not
misinterpret my words! I *ADORE* men--not ALL men,
mind you, but the rara avis.

I make more money owning my business and I have much more
time to call my own than I ever did when I was modeling and
I don't feel badly about what I do. I always felt like a
piece of meat or an object when I modeled even if the money
was good.

Jet


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:48:17 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-Id: <199608170548.FAA25798@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 10 Aug 96 about Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogam


People decide what is moral, and people can change their minds. When minds
change, laws and customs soon change to reflect the new thinking. I do
believe that one day soon it will be unthinkable to do things that people
do unthinkingly now. Poisen and plunder the earth recklessly? Not for
very much longer. Make war over shrinking non-renewable fuel sources? Not
for very much longer. Jail otherwise harmless people for recreational
enjoyment of a harmless plant? Not for very much longer. Rob the poor to
fatten the wallets of poiseners and warmongers? Not for very much longer.

Laura, define very much :-)

We both would dearly love to see all this happen.

sincerely,
Christine & David.
________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />.......http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine........<<br />.Authors of domestic and real life D/s Erotica..<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:48:12 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Private fantasies and "internal censorship"
Message-Id: <199608170547.FAA25770@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 24 Jul 96 about Private fantasies and "internal cen

Dee-Ann wrote in reply to robert and fiona forsythe:

I agree with most of what you wrote Dee-Ann, and I only have one
small point to make....

So, non-con fantasies aren't in and of themselves "evil," as most
things aren't inherently evil. I think it's how you look at them
that's the key. How you process them. How you feel about them. And,
if they're a strong part of your makeup, how you deal with them.

It has been suggested that writing about non-con is a way of getting
it out of one's system. The idea being that it's far better to write
about it than it is to go out and do it. I don't have any statistics
on this, but it makes a certain logical sense for most people. Not

This is the problem. There is a concept floating around that S&M
folk are dangerous, and if we don't "get it out of our system"
we might hurt someone.

To borrow Patricia's phrase......

BULL PUCKIES.

There are no reliable statistics. There is no evidence to
suggest that any of the people who have non-con fantasies ever
would or did hurt anyone any more or less than people with
fantasies about pink pillows. It is a simple and logical
misconception.

We should be very careful not to repeat this "get it out of your
system" poppycock in that way.

Whereas bottling it up in your system is probably very damaging
to the person doing the bottling. Let's not run away with the
idea that when the cork pops someone else is going to get hurt.
I believe that the person doing the bottling usually hurts
themselves first with alcohol, drugs, suicide or whatever.

What we in the SM community must do. And what you Dee-Ann do a
very good job of, is helping us to avoid bottling up.

'Internal censorship' to borrow Robert and Fiona's phrase is a
bad idea. Write it down, talk about it. Censor it yourself
externally if you want. But deny anyone else the right to
censor your ideas thoughts fantasies or writing.

Enjoy the non-consensual fantasies for what they are. Hot and
horny and fun to masturbate over.

Love,
David.
________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />.......http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine........<<br />Authors of domestic and real life Fem Dom Books.<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:48:16 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: " The Rules"
Message-Id: <199608170548.FAA25791@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 9 Aug 96 about [Fwd: Re: " The Rules"]

May I suggest slight adjustment to rule 6...how's this
6. If it appears that the female is wrong, this is only the exception
that proves the rule.. which is THE FEMALE IS NEVER WRONG.

that's how it goes at my house, at least.
Patricia


Now I know where my submissive preferences stem from. It must be
that junior school teacher Miss Brown who was always telling us
about 'the exception that proves the rule'. :-)

A concept I still have difficulty with. :-)

warmest regards,
David.
________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />.......http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine........<<br />Authors of domestic and real life Fem Dom Books.<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:48:19 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-Id: <199608170548.FAA25800@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 11 Aug 96 about Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Mon

Coyote said,

5.

People decide what is moral, and people can change their minds.

And then put the morality in the mouths of their gods: naughty, naughty.

(Occasionally a god will get tired of this and say something like 'Vengeance
is _mine_, Sparky,' or something equally memorable.)


And gave me a well needed laugh. Thanks. :-)

It goes without saying that the rest was, as usual, inspiring.

Love,
David.
________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />.......http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine........<<br />Authors of domestic and real life Fem Dom Books.<<br />English couple - Published privately since 1986.<<br />Fiction and training manuals available by Email.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:48:20 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-Id: <199608170548.FAA25811@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 11 Aug 96 about Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Mon

Laura said,


The way to end an arguement is not to quote the Bible, that's the way to
start one, and that's true no matter where you go, anymore.

Sounds true to me.

Personally I find that as soon as anyone uses those two words
(the Bible) I tend to pigeonhole them into an area that gets a
lot less of my attention. Probably shouldn't do it, but.....

Bible thumpers beware. Peoples ears are closing, best attempt to
prove your point with something more relevant

Love,
David.
________________________________________________
Christine & David Stevenson <<br /> http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine <<br />....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....<<br />........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........<<br />Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 08:20:50 -0400
From: mark
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Message-Id: <199608171220.IAA12656@recom.recom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Please remove me from list.

Thank you

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 07:41:45 -0400
From: Oldlow@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Bringing It all back Home
Message-ID: <960817074144_458663710@emout13.mail.aol.com

Dear Dee-Ann.
I read with interest your comments about FS and the Internet. It strikes me
that you've raised a very important point. You suggested that the wealth of
material relating to FS on the net may have a considerable effect upon women
who are wondering whether of not the Femdom way of life would suit them. On
the other side of the fence, so to speak, I think the same profusion of
stories and information might have a beneficial effect upon my sex. Here I
have to speak with diffidence, because I really have only my own experience
as a source, but it seems to me that other men may have the same difficulty I
did in coming to terms with their own inherent feminine nature. I'm nearly
seventy years old, so I grew up in a day when even schools were segregated
by sex. Boys were brought up with a plethora of subtle and not-so-subtle cues
suggesting that only virile masculine behaviour was acceptable. Crying, to
site a well-known example, was regarded as feminine, and hence taboo.
I don't mean to belabour the point, but surely many boys must have discovered
that they fitted this mold imperfectly, and then only at the cost of
considerable emotional pain. I don't speak about homosexual men of my
generation, of course, because it would be presumptuous in the extreme to
suggest that their often tortuous experiences could be fitted onto some sort
of linear sexual scale, with M at one end and F at the other.
Rather, it seems to me, that many boys to this day are unsuccessful in their
first attempts to bury their feminine tendencies when these surge up in
adolescence. That only guarantees that they will surface again. In the end,
they will have to work it out for themselves, but invariably success will
require a female guide, perhaps several of them. Many a wife must know what I
mean. Others might be surprised at the extent to which some men may be found
eager to share their interests and pursuits.
The suggestion that society condones, even accepts, this essential masculine
component, the feminine in all of us, comes best over the Internet. It can be
a very private discovery in the beginning, which is probably all for the
best. Interest brings more revelation and encouragement. I think it is a
profoundly hopeful development.
Thank you for allowing this lengthy response. I consider that I'm very
fortunate to have found you all!
With Warmest Best Wishes,
Malcolm

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 11:31:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poor me
Message-Id: <199608171831.LAA06886@netcom.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 905


FE"What does not kill me makes me stranger."

Re: The above. Bullshit.

Goddess told me she wants you to move to Long Island.

Kittheth!

:D :D :D
Uhm, what part is bullshit? I go =on= so!
Lawn Guyland? When did the Goddess tell you this, and
did She say where? Huntington? Dix Hills? Montauk?
Queens? The Hamptons? New Hyde Park?

Aha! Quogue!

How about anywhere east of Queens? Say, Boston? Say, Gahdneh?

thmackthback

j = cs = too hot to cross the road.

(who has not called N for wishing not to dump the calamities
of my life on perfect stangers)

yes, I know this is public. ;p

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:38:59 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: (Fwd) Re: " The Rules"
Message-Id: <199608172138.VAA20044@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Christine & David replying to femsupremacy@renaissoft.com who
wrote on 10 Aug 96 about " The Rules"

Changing the pace from existential discussions about heavy subjects,

1. The female always makes the rules.
2. The rules are subject to change anytime without prior notification.
3. No male can possibly know all the rules.
4. If the female suspects the male knows all the rules, she must
immediately change some, or all of the rules.
5. The female is never wrong.
6. If the female is wrong, it is due to a misunderstanding, which was a
direct result of something the male did or said wrong.
7. If rule 6' applies, the male must apologize immediately for causing
the misunderstanding.
8. The female may change her mind at any time.
9. The male must never change his mind without the expressed written
consent of the female.
10. The female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The male must remain calm at all times, unless the female wants him
to be angry or upset.
12. The female must, under no circumstance, let the male know whether or
not she wants him to be angry or upset.
13. The male is expected to mind read at all times.
14. If the female has P.M.S., all the rules are null and void.
15. The female is ready when she is ready.
16. The male must be ready at all times.


How about.....

17. The male must know and obey all the above rules without ever
being told that there are any rules. :-)

just kidding?
David.
________________________________________________
Christine & David Stevenson <<br /> http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine <<br />....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....<<br />........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........<<br />Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 18:21:08 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Model Femdoms? (was Re: Women and physical type (c
Message-ID:

FEI make more money owning my business and I have much more
FEtime to call my own than I ever did when I was modeling and
FEI don't feel badly about what I do. I always felt like a
FEpiece of meat or an object when I modeled even if the money
FEwas good.

FEJet


Heard and understood.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 18:25:40 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poor me
Message-ID:

FE
FE FE"What does not kill me makes me stranger."
FE
FE Re: The above. Bullshit.
FE
FE Goddess told me she wants you to move to Long Island.
FE
FE Kittheth!

FE :D :D :D
FE Uhm, what part is bullshit? I go =on= so!

"That which does not kill me makes me stroner.

FE Lawn Guyland? When did the Goddess tell you this, and

She told me ages ago. And HEY! Only off-islanders call it 'LAWN
GUYLAND.' The rest of us know how to pronounce it. You know what y'all
sound like to US don't you? A buncha shit-kickers!

FE did She say where? Huntington? Dix Hills? Montauk?
FE Queens? The Hamptons? New Hyde Park?

FE Aha! Quogue!

You are to go where I go.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Bringing It all back Home
Message-Id: <199608180026.RAA24862@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 838

Malcolm wrote eloquently of a time -not that long ago, but longer than
I can clearly remember- when any of our deliberations would have been not
only taboo but also incomprehesnible to all but a few angry Women.

He also touched on the fact, at times overlooked here, is that much of
the Feminine that males here are seeking to uncover and honor is our own.

Welcome, Malcolm. :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 17:44:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Poor me
Message-Id: <199608180044.RAA27080@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1269

Sorceress said the following was b.s.:

"That which does not kill me makes me stroner.

I said 'stranger,' with an 'a'

or did you mean 'stoner?' :)



FE Lawn Guyland? When did the Goddess tell you this, and

She told me ages ago. And HEY! Only off-islanders call it 'LAWN
GUYLAND.' The rest of us know how to pronounce it. You know what y'all
sound like to US don't you? A buncha shit-kickers!

'y'all?' 'y'ALL!?!?'

That's the way they talk =much= further south and east!

We say 'You,' or in a pinch 'Thou.'

Not 'Y'all' and never 'Youse.'


FE did She say where? Huntington? Dix Hills? Montauk?
FE Queens? The Hamptons? New Hyde Park?

FE Aha! Quogue!

You are to go where I go.

Hmmmmm: not Quogue, then. Not even Suffolk! :

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

(For viewers who have just joined us, we have been having this exchange
since 1992, at least, when I was M***** and she was R***.)

;
c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 23:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Bringing It all back Home
Message-Id: <199608180354.XAA27337@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:41 AM 8/17/96 -0400, Malcolm wrote:
The suggestion that society condones, even accepts, this essential masculine
component, the feminine in all of us, comes best over the Internet. It can be
a very private discovery in the beginning, which is probably all for the
best. Interest brings more revelation and encouragement. I think it is a
profoundly hopeful development.
Thank you for allowing this lengthy response. I consider that I'm very
fortunate to have found you all!

Malcolm- Thanks for your insightful post, we warmly welcome you to the list
:) I agree that the internet is helping us all in ways we don't recognize
yet. For me, it has helped me to accept my feminine side (and my tender
"non-masculine" feelings) and my desire to serve the better gender. I had
thought I was weird and alone but through the insights and help of the
supportive online community I now know that I'm not. I now know that
*every* aspect of my personality and emotional landscape is special and
lovable and valuable. Communication and social intercourse has led to
self-discovery and affirmation, something that would not have been
accomplished without the internet medium.

Warm regards, Paul/maidpaula


{{Property of the enchanting Lady Jet, a very special person whom}}
{{has accepted my gift of submission to use for Her pleasure. She}}
{{holds my gift tenderly in Her caring and strict hands. }}

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:06:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: " The Rules"
Message-Id: <199608180406.AAA27762@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:38 PM 8/17/96 +0100, you wrote:

How about.....

17. The male must know and obey all the above rules without ever
being told that there are any rules. :-)

David- There *are* rules :) I was on the IRC femdom channel and the topic
was "A channel of 1001 rules". I inquired as what those rules might be and
was told to nevermind, I was not allowed to know the rules ;) Our superior
gender realizes that "knowledge is power". Grinningly, Paul/maidpaula


{{Property of the enchanting Lady Jet, a very special person whom}}
{{has accepted my gift of submission to use for Her pleasure. She}}
{{holds my gift tenderly in Her caring and strict hands. }}


femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 185

Today's Topics:
Morality and the Bible
Re: unsubscribe
Re: David Lodge/Collars
Re: David Lodge/Collars
Re: uses for men
locks
Re: Life (was Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: David Lodge/Collars
Re: Bringing It all back Home
Re: David Lodge/Collars
thought for the day
Re: David Lodge/Collars
Re: David Lodge/Collars
Relativism
Domination in the Grief process


It seems the list never seems to get more animated than when people
start
writing religious posts or refer to the bible. We all have different
beliefs, which I find fascinating. It's obvious that religion can be a
painful subject making normally secure people cringe or lash out in
defensive ways. Because of the sensitive nature of this subject, you
can make folks "uncomfy" easier than with almost any other subject.
Coyote, I have some comments to share with you about Jesus, and the law,
and morality, for I believe the bible is very much about morality(ie
Matt. 15:3,4,8,9,18-20), but I would feel more comftorable talking with
you via private email, rather than on the list. I don't want to get
deep into it here, since the primary focus is femsupremacy and not
theological gymnastics. Please feel free to write me any time. Your
deeply spiritual
reflections are much appreciated.
Also, I agree that bible thumping, which to me is banging people over
the head with big ones, or stuffing it down your throat with little ones
as was said, is usually done with an" I'm the only source of truth"
attitude. To me, that is arrogant and as Jet rightly said, wrong. No
one has a monopoly on the truth and as I've said before, God's light has
shown on every person who comes into the world, no matter what religion,
or lack thereof. The book of nature to me is a very powerful revelation
of a higher being, and people will be in eternal bliss who have never
seen a bible but have found God revealed to them Gods' second book,
nature.
Patricia said God made Adam, then he got all the mistakes worked out
and made Eve. I guess that means we were the rough draft guys! It's
easy to agree with you Patricia, that Eve would be the crowning act of
Gods' creation, since she was the last act, and I believe, the greatest
one.
Also it is said that God made her from mans' rib, not from his head,
to rule over her, not from his foot, to trample her under his feet, but
from a place in his side, over his heart, for them to walk side by side
as equals, and lovers. I like that romantic emphasis.
Magnus, if God made the world who made God? Why don't you try to
think up a question that isn't so easy to answer? Lol! After all,
theologians have only been pondering that one for thousands of years!
Like can God create a rock too big for God to lift? If not, can God do
all things? Stuff like that, circular reasoning can blow your mind, but
it's fun to think about.
When I was working on my masters in a triple concentration, religion,
philosophy and ethics, (quite a combo eh)? I had to read hundreds of
books on all three subjects, and since I had to learn Greek, Hebrew and
some Aramaic to interpret the original languages of the Mideast where
many sacred writings were penned, I learned that people express
themselves in many ways. Much of western thought is expressed
differently from eastern thought. Eastern thought often works in a sort
of parallelism that westerners have a hard time relating to. Suffice it
to say that I have such a wide interest in all these areas, that all
your posts are interesting to me. Also, it is always astounding to me
that a comment made that is seemingly unimportant can stimulate days of
commentary. Aint life grand! So much for philosophical gymnastics.
Laura's' comments about lacing up gloves and getting in the ring were
so macho I had to laugh out loud. It would be amazing to me that
anybody on this list would be offended by anything anyone says as if it
were new. In a short period, people here deal with every subject
imaginable and not in the most gentile, way I might add. Sexism is ugly
no matter who stoops to it. The greatest compliment men can pay to the
women here is to not pull any punches, to use Mz. Goodwins' boxing
metaphor, and treat everyone with respect, but tell it like it is. I
always appreciate it when a person can make a point using the English
language, without having to use crude or rude references, or needless
anger or sarcasm, as in one instance last month when Patricia was
abused. Fight and shove if you must. If your right, and you believe in
what your saying, your passion and conviction will persuade hearts and
change minds. After all , "you catch more flies with vinegar than you
do with honey." Tee hee.

The Christian non-bashing motto:
"LOVE 'EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT"
(survival tip around radical, rabid Christian, wear a helmet,
that way your head is protected from descending bible, and keep
mouth closed at all times, so the little ones won't get ya)!


Peace,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:45:07 -0700
From: henk strijker <@pi.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <3211F483.10DC@pi.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

plse remove me from your list

henkst@pi.net

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:08:57 -0700
From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
From: ToyLet@fat.doobie.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: David Lodge/Collars
Subject: Re: David Lodge/Collars
Message-Id: <199608141408.HAA26243@fat.doobie.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Chase Vogelsberg

I've worn a collar, night and day, for about four months straight at one
point, both as symbol of and reminder of a certain relationship. For me,
it was helpful, because the weight of the collar (moderately heavy bright
steel choke collar w/ small padlock) was in some ways reassuring.

I've found that wearing a collar is helpful and reassuring during those
times my Dom is gone for longer than a day.

"Was it not rather to the men sitting on the wall, who, with you,
will be forced to eat their own shit and drink their own piss?"
Lady Beclan's pet and toylet slave {(*}} toylet@bdsbbs.com

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:47:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-Id: <199608141747.NAA19891@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think I'm in love!!

I am still not quite over agonizing about an "almost secret tryst" and here
I go again! Oh those Goddess Hormones.

Mistress Lorraine

I would like to respond to the recent letter about 10 uses for unruly males,
which I cannot at the moment find. Not all men are abusive, macho jerks.
In fact, some of us who are not have been given the least respect by women
precisely because we are not aggressive, macho, or built like Hercules. How
about a list of uses for us ? Here is my view of 10 things that I'm good
for:

1.) I am capable of giving a woman a great deal of love and emotional
support.

2.) Helping to pay the bills. Unlike some who want to serve partly because
they are too incompetent, lazy or addicted to hold down a job, I have never
had any problems staying employed.

3) Companionship. No REAL human being is 100% dominant or superior, or
submissive or inferior. A partner is someone you have to be able to enjoy
life with. An evening out, a holiday, or a walk in the country. Even if
later on you make him kiss your feet while you assign him his chores for the
next day.

4.) Teaching. I am highly educated and talented. Most people could learn a
lot from me, and I would learn from them if I could.

5.) I would happily do the housework and run errands in order to please my
lady.

6.) On testimony of a number of ladies, I give excellent foot massages.

7. I would like to serve my lady breakfast in bed.

8. Hugging, cuddling and caressing. Every normal human needs affection.

9. Taking out frustrations on after a tough day. People often effectively
use things like punching dolls, martial arts, and other forms of physical
exercise to release frustration. As I watch the Olympics, it is obvious
that most of the female athletes I see could easily beat me up if they
wanted too. As long as they didn't break any bones or anything, I would
not mind if a few of them did.

10. As a sex slave.

As Rosie O'Donnell said in a movie about S&M, I think it was called Eden or
something, alot of men are jerks, " AND IF WE DON'T START APPRECIATING THE
GOOD ONES, THERE WON'T BE ANY LEFT." And while we are on the subject, a lot
of women are jerks as well.

Sign me,

Unappreciated

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:21:26 -0700
From: sonja
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: locks
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960816002126.006b21b8@cybernex.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

please help: i need a small preferably sterling silver lock to attach to my
bracelet which is symbolic of my collar.......

any ideas of where to get one....

any help is appreciated, many thanks

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 23:52:43 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Life (was Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-Id: <199608142152.XAA16125@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 12 Aug 96 18:26:37 EDT, OhEadhra wrote:

We all must die - so be it. So does all life on earth - but why is it that we
have this seemingly unique capacity to be able to THINK about it ! We experience
dear ones suffering lingering deaths, we (by the means of the media) experience
children all over the world starving to death, being abused, being killed by
shrapnel. Do other life forms suffer so ??

This reminds me of something Q said in an episode of ST:TNG after
Picard had explained the consequences of Q's interference with their
mission. The Enterprise was on its way to aid a colony where hundreds of
people risked dying unless they arrived on time. Q brushed Picard's
protests away, and said 'Ah, you're species is always suffering and
dying'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 22:48:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: David Lodge/Collars
Message-Id: <199608150548.WAA03750@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3878

robert and fiona forsythe wrote:

For a long time Fiona has collared/leashed Robert but only in playtimes
where we both find it very effective. Obviously we have read fantasy
accounts where the collar has taken on a great deal of significance as a
sign of submissiveness and so there are accounts of slaves being
collared as part of an ownership process.

I generally put collared as "collared." I do this for the reason that
the collar may be the traditional symbol of ownership, I don't think
of it as practical for 24/7 wear for most cases. Not a "normal
collar" anyway.

To what extent can/is it helpful or possible for collaring to be
extended beyond playtimes? Do any list members or associated partners
actually have the nerve/confidence/environment (we have none of these we
think) to wear a collar publicly? Have any list members conceived of
what would be some sort of alternative marriage ceremony where the sub
partner (whether it is F/m, F/f or what) is (semi?-) publicly collared
because that has become such a symbol of their relationship that they
want to make that statement public?

I find that if I really want someone to feel my presence all of the
time, I definitely want to "collar" them in real life. I don't live
in an area where I could realistically use a traditional collar on
someone constantly, and the folks I've had long distance relationships
also haven't lived in those kinds of areas. However, some things that
do work are:

* Feminine undies. You can have your property always wear feminine
underwear that you purchased for him. If your partner's a woman,
you could make her always wear thong underwear, or a specific style
of panties you like. If you happen to hate feminine underwear,
there is also sexy, skimpy underwear out there for men. Pick out
what you like, and use that instead.
* Jewelry. Necklaces have already been mentioned. You could also
use bracelets, anklets, or whatever comes to mind. You could even
have them sealed/welded, so they can't be removed.
* Piercings. There are, of course, all kinds of piercings. Ear,
nose, eyebrow, nipple, genital, navel, etc. A genital piercing,
especially, is a fairly consistent reminder of who controls that
person's sexuality. Not everyone is up to this, though!
* Brandings, tattoos, and cuttings. None of these is totally
permanent, but with brandings and cuttings there's no knowing how
long they'll last (depend on the person's skin) and tattoos can be
removed with a laser now, but I'm not sure if it looks "as good as
new" or not. So, these items aren't, IMO, something to do without
a fairly solid relationship and a lot of serious thought.

Really, what it comes down to is choosing something that's meaningful
to the two of you. When your partner is always wearing something from
you, it's harder for them to do things they're not supposed to while
they're at work, on their way home, etc.

Of course this could all read as pretty esoteric but it is only because
it all sounds so unfamiliar. It is hardly in concept any different to an
exchange of rings along with the old 1662 wedding vows where the woman
promises to love honour and obey the man. Vows that some still use in
public ceremonies in English churches where not an eyebrow will be
raised (fine if you are a real female submissive but hardly applicable
to any other character).

My wedding vows didn't have the word "obey" anywhere in them. And, we
did a separate, private ceremony where _he_ promised to obey. ;)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:42:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Bringing It all back Home
Message-Id: <199608152142.OAA04275@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2944

New User wrote:

Am wondering whether domestic FS relationships will become more commonplace
as a result of the opening up provided by the internet. One is aware that
there are many more sub-men out there than there are dommes for them, at
least on a matrimonial basis. Is it possible that more women will come to
appreciate this aspect of male sexuality and longing, as it all becomes
more visible, in part because of the luxuriant growth of BDSM websites?

I think people will learn from the Internet that they're not alone in
their lifestyle preferences. This is certainly a good thing. However,
I don't personally think that sex-oriented websites are the answer.
Those aren't generally the sites I personally check out. If a site
has a catalog of equipment people can order, I'm more likely to look
at it. Otherwise, I don't really get too much into pictures or most
of the fiction. Probably because most of the images and stories are
aimed at men.

Women's sex fantasies appear to be changing, at least if the anecdotal
evidence of Nancy Friday's work is anything to go by and women are becoming
more assertive, more open about their wants and less haunted by rape
fantasies (at least in the USA). I see websites and magazines like "Whap"
and I wonder just what sort of effect this might have. If a sub who is
perhaps dating a woman presents that woman with an appropriate and expensive
gift, a hairbrush and a copy of "Whap" (or similar publication) just what is
likely to happen? I know that FS does not necessarily have to depend on
FemDom techniques, but in practise I expect that subs will respond most
strongly to FS in a FemDom setting. Could this be the beginning of a wider
acceptance of this style of loving?

I think that newsgroups like alt.sex.bondage and alt.sex.femdom, irc
channels like #femdom, and various mailing lists on the same kinds of
topics do far much more good for women who think they may be into
Female Domination. As far as Female Supremacy, I think often getting
into Femdom is the first step. Or, they meet someone or see mention
on a newsgroup about this list, or others, or happen to run across the
alt.women.supremacy group. From my experience, women are more drawn
by discussion than by pictures. Especially if they can just hang out
and watch for a while and get their bearings.

I keep hoping that, one day, fellows who believe in Female Supremacy
will commit to doing things for women even if they aren't "owned" by a
woman who shares their beliefs. We've had the occasional story here
from members who _do_ do these types of things. It would be nice to
hear more!

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:06:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: David Lodge/Collars
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

One thing I have noticed in various U.S. cities is the prevalence
of collars on young people. Of course, they can "get away" with this, as
it is generally regarded as another "fashion statement" little different
from piercing or avant-garde hairstyles. Also, I have observed that
clothing and accessories that would have been regarded as bdsm signals
only a few years ago are now creeping closer to the mainstream.
Maybe it won't be too long until you can wear your collar in
public. Leaving work today I saw a guy in a three piece suit with a nose
ring. This in little Portland!

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:39:11 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: thought for the day
Message-ID: <3213FB6F.29FF@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

man (not in the generic sense) is the missing link between apes and
human beings.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:03:50 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: David Lodge/Collars
Message-ID: <3213D706.7D52@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Barry--

It's interesting that you bring this up. I moved recently and I have
been thinning out my "things" and came across an old choker that I
had bought in the 70's. It is a gold mesh choker collar with a belt
buckle and a place to put a lock... I agree that fashion is coming
closer to the smbd community quite quickly...punk rockers, heavy
metalheads, etc. are helping it change quickly. Many designers
are into the ripped/torn/bondage look.

In my daughter's school last year, there were at least 3 dozen that
I noticed (male and female) that wore collars, or piercings. The most
unique that I noticed was a young lady that had her ears pierced at
least 6 times in each ear and each nostril pierced twice with various
chains connecting from each hole. I saw a postal worker at a Seattle
post office wearing a collar and at her belt were handcuffs (not to
mention her pierced tongue and lip).

Barry, I hope you are right in this. If it gets mainstream enough,
we can come out of hiding a little more. Of course, in Seattle, you
can get away with pretty much anything on Capital Hill... ;)

Jet


clothing and accessories that would have been regarded as bdsm signals
only a few years ago are now creeping closer to the mainstream.
Maybe it won't be too long until you can wear your collar in
public. Leaving work today I saw a guy in a three piece suit with a nose
ring. This in little Portland!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:32:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: David Lodge/Collars
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Barry Emerson Wright wrote:

Maybe it won't be too long until you can wear your collar in
public. Leaving work today I saw a guy in a three piece suit with a nose
ring. This in little Portland!

I bet my Portland is littler than your Portland. :)

As for collars, if everyone wears them, will it feel the same for us?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 18:01:43 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
CC: Robert and Fiona Forsythe
Subject: Relativism
Message-ID: <32166AF8.6779@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Warning: Response to Robert's spiritual pondering. The thoughts
expressed here are the authors opinion, and the list is not responsible
for, nor endorses the views contained therein. If you are allergic to
Christian philosophy do not proceed any further, to do so could be
hazards to your mental state.... NOT!

Robert wrote:
for years our spirits have lived in hope that Christ is
the redeemer, and yet see as a key part of our Christian faith the
recognition that we accept that there may be no God and that Christ may
be simply a Good Man who was bullied. Either way we should be prepared
for each route, that of belief and of non-belief because the world of
the last few hundred years since the enlightenment says you cannot treat
belief as a fact of life and that if you do, you tend to bully. So to
those who believe, be prepared that perhaps the enlightenment and
agnostic humanism/liberalism/relativism is actually all part of your
God's revelation

Without a doubt, the apostles of the early church believed Christ was
the redeemer. Peter, who was quite cowardly before Christ's death, swore
that he saw Jesus alive after His resurrection and was crucified upside
down rather than deny he actually saw Jesus himself. Eleven of the
disciples, and Paul, died violent deaths, rather than say that Jesus was
not alive. They swore that they had personally seen him alive, and died
rather than renounce him. I believe with all my heart, he lives and sits
in heaven right now and will come again soon. So, your hope is not in
vain. It's sad to me that after all these years, like Thomas, you still
doubt him. If he is not God, then he is not a good man. He claimed to be
God and that the only way to heaven was through him. If that is not true
than he is the most despicable liar who ever lived and should be reviled
and not worshiped. He would be a very BAD man. Robert, I believe Jesus
is exactly who he said he was, God in human flesh, and I worship him. I
have prayed and seen great miracles, and the bible will never be just a
book to me. To me, it is the voice of God speaking to my heart, as has
happened hundreds of times
Bullying is wrong, but to say if you have confidence in your beliefs
automatically makes you a bully is not logical. Those Muslim and
Christian fanatics that were cruel to people are evil, whether they
CLAIM to be Christian or not. I can go sit in a garage but that doesn't
make me a car. You can go to church, but that doesn't make me a
Christian.
You can be strong, and have strong opinions, but still be kind to
people, Laura Goodwin does it all the time. She puts forth her beliefs
in a very forceful way, but I've never seen her bully anyone, even those
who disagree with her. People should be persuaded, not bullied, but we
shouldn't be so open minded that we go any way the wind blows. As far
as agnostic humanism, liberalism, and relativism, if your agnostic
you're in doubt. If your a humanist, you worship man/woman, yourself, if
your liberal that can be good or bad, and relativism is why were in the
mess we are in today. Confusion, doubt and no solid foundation to build
your house upon. Where is the solid rock? Build it there, not on sinking
sand so when the floods come, your house won't be swept away. (a very
popular preacher once gave the same advise, hint: he wore sandals and
hung out with whores and tax collectors) I hope you find the peace your
searching for in the book of John. Is he who he says or not? I believe
he is, and I judge none who disagrees with me. This is my opinion, and I
don't expect anyone else to accept it or agree with me. But since you
brought up the subject, I've shared these thoughts with you.

May the Force be with you!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:08:02 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Domination in the Grief process
Message-ID: <32150D62.DE7@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all--

My Brit is having a rough time with his father's death. He is the
executor of his father's estate. His mother had a heart attack two
days or so after his father's death. I am hoping she will recover
soon.

I am concerned that even though I will be his Mistress and that is
where he wants to be, what he will be like as far as emotionally
being able to handle that. He has much experience (over 15 years)
of submissiveness (10 of those married to a female supremacist),
so that is not the issue. I wonder if the D/s structure will help
or harm the grief process.

Does anyone or has anyone had the experience of Domming someone or
being Dommed while the sub/slave was in the grief process? If so,
what has helped or harmed the sub/slave? This is an area that I
have not heard anything about yet on this group. I hope, whether
you are a Dominant or a submissive, you may be able to help me
with this one.

RE: grieving and such... Has anyone heard anything about Dennis's
(t.o.m.) Hilary? I hope she is doing well.

Jet


the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #185
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 184

Today's Topics:
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Life (was Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Collaring
Re: David Lodge/Collars
Poor me
Poor me
Bringing It all back Home

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 21:00:33 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-ID:

In message <2.2.32.19960812134830.0069f07c@popd.ix.netcom.com, Laura
Goodwin
Here is a version of an old myth I like; stop me if you have heard this one:

* In the beginning all was dark and the Goddess was alone. To amuse
herself, She curved space into a mirror so She could see her own reflection.
She fell in love with what She saw, and began to long for someone like
Herself whom She could embrace. This grew, and out of Her desire the God
was born. The birth was painful, but the moment The Goddess beheld Her
divine child She forgot Her pain. He grew, and like Her was in every way
perfect, but since He was modelled on Her reflection He was in some ways Her
opposite.

When they embraced, the power of their love lit up the universe. Out of
this all the uncountable things were born. At the center of everything the
Goddess and God still embrace, and their perfect love sustains the universe. *
Thankyou, yes, that was nice.
It seems we may have been missing a bit of Bible argument on the list
and we have noted the horror stories Dee-Ann posted.

Well, there are many things we do not know but here is one we both
emphatically sign up too:
if the price of having God is the price of obeying fundamentalists of
any sort who behave in the manner Dee-Ann recorded, we will do without
God, without heaven and hell, thankyou very much.

If there is a God and if Christ (or Buddha or anyone else) has anything
to do with it, then in our book the justification for God's existence is
some form of rationale as described in Laura's myth.

Such a person/spirit/force could surely never behave in the physically
violent manner these fundamentalists would have us believe they have
been told to behave.

Course this is nothing new under the sun, religion has ever been the
justification for the power games people play and when we read the
accounts Dee-Ann posted, we think of nothing so much than men who have
become very frightened and unable to come up with anything better revert
to naked fear and force.

It frightens us and angers us, and as some of you by now no doubt
recognise, we detest bullying of any sort and any religious interest we
have ever had has been on the premise 'thou shalt not bully and I am
come that thou may be redeemed from the bully'. The possibility of
eternal life without the bully is indeed a prize and a hope, but one us
two folk would ask other religious friends the question:
would you admit the possibility of your own religion and beliefs
being in error or simply wrong if that admission could save you
from bullying?

Some folk may see this as a version of Dostoyevsky's great question in
Brothers Karamazov. We think it is one for our times: religion, even if
all or any be true, will have to build into itself for the 21st century
the recognition that any or all of it may be wrong. If a Muslim
fundemantalist could say "I believe such and such and know that it might
be wrong" then he might not decapitate women on an Algerian beach. We
promise you that for years our spirits have lived in hope that Christ is
the redeemer, and yet see as a key part of our Christian faith the
recognition that we accept that there may be no God and that Christ may
be simply a Good Man who was bullied. Either way we should be prepared
for each route, that of belief and of non-belief because the world of
the last few hundred years since the enlightenment says you cannot treat
belief as a fact of life and that if you do, you tend to bully. So to
those who believe, be prepared that perhaps the enlightenment and
agnostic humanism/liberalism/relativism is actually all part of your
God's revelation (something a guy the Nazis shot called Dietrich
Bonhoeffer referred to as religionless Xnity).

This would be a peculiar form of corporate disempowerment that would
actually empower individuals. As fs supplies us with clips like Laura's
hope, that chip in with this, we find ourselves saying "yes, thankyou,
hopefully".
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:30:36 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-ID: <320FBE9C.44C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

since I tend to get my spiritual rushes..from things like standing on
the rim of the grand canyon..or at the ocean...I have thought often...
there is no EVIL in nature...there is living and dying and being...all
evil is man-made...
so if man can make it....woman should be able to un-make it...te he
just move over men and let us have our way......YEAH!!!!!
Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 96 18:26:37 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Life (was Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-ID: <960812222636_101342.2030_GHW94-1@CompuServe.COM

As usual, the postings are riveting.

Gods, Goddesses, Aids, Cancer, Heart Attacks - it is a wonder we are not all
manic depressives, locked away, strapped into straight jackets (oohps - some
of us might like that !)

Gods and Goddesses - who cares ! Whoever is either controlling this existence,
or allowing us to control it, is neither man or woman - neither of our genders
could have made such a total cockup as She/He/It has ! What has She/He/It got
in mind - Have a laugh at CS and his fight with alcohol, Jet and her pain,
LaLaura and Dee Ann in their struggle to allow women to live their lives to the
full, meretool (where is he?) to annihilate himself etc etc. If there is someone
up there planning all this - I dislike them immensely!

We all must die - so be it. So does all life on earth - but why is it that we
have this seemingly unique capacity to be able to THINK about it ! We experience
dear ones suffering lingering deaths, we (by the means of the media) experience
children all over the world starving to death, being abused, being killed by
shrapnel. Do other life forms suffer so ??

Under no circumstances could I EVER worship such a being, Female or Male - to me
life is NOW not later. I could worship a real, live warm woman - no problem -
but as far as worshipping someone I have no respect for - no way. I will continue
to live my life the way Jet described so well :

Everyone should go out and do what they feel is right; what will not
hurt others or themselves; treat the earth, animals, ANY beings that
exist with kindness and consideration and respect.

That is good enough for me.

There again, maybe I need a sabbatical with CS :)


Dennis (t.o.m)


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:45:42 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (Peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Patricia wrote:
since I tend to get my spiritual rushes..from things like standing on
the rim of the grand canyon..or at the ocean...I have thought often...
there is no EVIL in nature...there is living and dying and being...all
evil is man-made...
so if man can make it....woman should be able to un-make it...te he
just move over men and let us have our way......YEAH!!!!!


Dennis wrote (in part):
Gods and Goddesses - who cares ! Whoever is either controlling this existence,
or allowing us to control it, is neither man or woman - neither of our genders
could have made such a total cockup as She/He/It has ! What has She/He/It got
in mind - Have a laugh at CS and his fight with alcohol, Jet and her pain,
LaLaura and Dee Ann in their struggle to allow women to live their lives to the
full, meretool (where is he?) to annihilate himself etc etc. If there is
someone
up there planning all this - I dislike them immensely!


Having just returned from two weeks vacation and having just re-subscribed
to this list yesterday, I have no idea how this discussion on the bible and
religion got started or where it went before I picked up on this
discussion.

However, two things come to mind.

I can totally relate to Patricia, having spent a pleasant day watching
whales frolic in the St. Lawrence river. It was through seeing these
awesome creatures and the magnificant, quiet and untouched scenery of the
Saguenay River that one gets a true appreciation of the power of nature.

The other thought I had was an anecdote told to me by a sportswriter friend
who is afraid of flying. He was seated beside a hockey player who was
born-again and had become a preacher.

When the hockey player noticed my friend's knuckles turning white as the
plane was about to take off, he handed my friend a bible and said: "Here,
Rick, maybe this will help you."

My friend replied: "It will, only if it has a f______g parachute in it."

Peter



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:06:29 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-ID:

In message <2.2.32.19960812134830.0069f07c@popd.ix.netcom.com, Laura
Goodwin
Here is a version of an old myth I like; stop me if you have heard this one:
and we have already responded but Robert's (my) brain is still zooming
around,

on your commentary:

She forgot Her pain.

fine, that there is pain in creation and life seems inescapable
There is no sin, no fall from grace,

maybe, we find accepting historic Falls, God's curse of Adam and Eve
pretty taxing

BUT

do you really mean "no sin"?

how do you describe all the horrible things folk do to one another,
not the consensual games a fem-domme plays with her sub,
but the non-consensual warping, denigration and power gaming human
beings inflict on others without any form of by your leave or
consideration for the other parties wellbeing?

what gets us about humanity and there is plenty of evidence for it (I
saw it in eight year olds when I was eight) is the way human beings can
delight in other people's misery.

How does the humanist explain this and how can an agenda to cut this
behaviour out of humanity be set up without grace?

It may be possible but please someone speak up.

The Christian view may be "wrong" but at least it is an explanation and
in suggesting that it all has something to do with the nature of
creation, it may yet be pointing in the right area (i.e. we sin/abuse
because we are in a wasteful painful abusive evolution).

(Maybe the answer is an education programme that says if the will to
abuse is part of human nature then learn only to do it with a willing
sub BUT for us our choice is that neither of us want to abuse/be abused
by each of us or anyone else).
--
fiona and robert forsythe (more of Robert this late at night)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:29:12 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-ID: <6XtZYDAorEEyEw3D@forsythe.demon.co.uk

In message <320FBE9C.44C@tiac.net, Noble
..all
evil is man-made...

much as we respect you Patricia, have a thought on this:
when the phrase "evil is man made" (or its religous core) was originally
coined the man there stood for humankind,

it may be a nice flutter for fs but we both think human persons should
accept that both sexes can create misery,

now, you or others may be able to convince us that there is something in
the male, that make him more prone to abuse than the female, the male
kills/exploits, the female nurtures/cares,

so do some form of percentage split by all means, but this couple will
not have women (even those who deserve to be worshipped as a Mistress)
wriggling out of the view that any of us (m/f) can be capable of kicking
the defenceless (and how many fantasies will we all have read where
that is the scenario where one party gets their rocks off, sadly if it
has some validity as a fantasy, it is reminding us that somewhere in our
nature there is this will to power regardless of the consequences for
others).

but even if you rewrote to get all "evil is humanmade", we would still
be disagreeing,

in our book evil is a consequence of the nature of the evolutionary
world order,
the world order creates its beauty out of waste and pain,
even with no humans, animals would be preying on one another, volcanos
would be erupting onto unsuspecting monkeys, viruses would be wiping out
breeds, accidents would leave animals limbless and lame,

the only way it seems to us that this would not be so, would be if that
old Genesis story was right after all, that once upon a time, it was all
perfect,

but this pair cannot subscribe to this,

so if you have a painful world and then add an animal who evolves out of
the competitive "nature is red in tooth and claw" into a sensitive self-
aware being who is capable of conceiving how things might be better for
his genus, whilst also being very aware of the many opportunities for
making things better for his personal short lot, then doing that at the
expense of the other whose pain you do not feel is not difficult, hey
presto you have sinful behaviour: "I will do what I want for my
betterment and if it hurts you hard cheese".

Sorry Patricia, but all this thread (which must have started whilst we
were innocently elsewhere) has rubbed Robert on some of his most
sensitive nerves (apart from those dedicated to Fiona).

If anyone reading this happens to think there is any merit in what has
been said, they can contact Robert who can offer four graduate level
qualifications in subjects from theology to industrial archaeology
whilst creating an income the size of a peanut. Robert (and Fiona
strongly confirms this) is a specialist in need of his context
(relocation in the UK (to Canada/ USA?) considered (but you would have
to buy out Fiona too as she is the sensible breadwinner (but then what
is the net for but to do much of this from homebase))). He could, given
the environment and colleagues, produce very original and relevant
material on the challenge of suffering, sin, sexuality, and a try at
religous faith too (+ model railway history). Reams of unpublished MSS
and some quantity of published MSS (mostly on model railway history!!!!)
are here to prove the point.

So if any FS listmember can help find Robert a place to occupy (and
reward) a brain the size of a planet (that is a joke, an inneundo to
Marvin in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), Help please (post
replies direct, don't waste other folks capacity too much).

--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:28:02 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-Id: <1996813112952341@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

If anyone reading this happens to think there is any merit in what has
been said, they can contact Robert who can offer four graduate level
qualifications in subjects from theology to industrial archaeology
whilst creating an income the size of a peanut.

LOL! I can relate!

I got the fame, now where's the damn money!? Speaking of red in tooth and
claw, some of us got that way from trying to scratch out a living. (Ooch,
that smarts!)



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:57:23 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-Id: <1996813125915326962@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

If there is someone up there planning all this - I dislike them
immensely!

LOL! Yeah, I have days like that too, but I have a cup of coffee and a bowl
of ice cream and it goes away LOL!

Peter wrote:

I can totally relate to Patricia, having spent a pleasant day watching
whales frolic in the St. Lawrence river. It was through seeing these
awesome creatures and the magnificant, quiet and untouched scenery of the
Saguenay River that one gets a true appreciation of the power of nature.

I love wild places too, and can really refresh my spirit with a retreat to
some wooded area or an alpine meadow, but you know what really gives me
that special feeling of attunement and the pleasure of living? Dancing! I
love to dance! There is a long tradition behind the practice of sacred
dance too. I like many kinds of music, so it's hard to say what kind of
music is best for this...if a piece of great music really moves me, I get
an electrifying feeling, and feel an irresistable urge to dance. This is
*murder* if I am in a place where dancing is not allowed or appropriate: I
try to avoid getting trapped in places where music is played, but no one
dances.

Hell on earth for me would be to be paralyzed. I would rather go blind or
deaf than to lose my cherished ability to dance. I go to the nightclubs
every weekend, ususally my fave club, a gay bar named Sanctury, and dance,
dance, dance! Usually I dance alone, that is, in the midst of the crowd,
because dancing with a partner tends to hamper me creatively. I do great
couple dancing with my adored Janine...we had our own dances with I
invented, and when we were *on* we were a ~sensation~. Alas, Jan and I are
on the outs. We are still friendly, but the dancing won't be the same
again, I don't think...:::sigh::: But I digress...

As to the subject of evil, I believe it's a human invention, and I believe
humans can eradicate it. How, you ask? Step by step, that's how.

As to who cares, Goddess or God or none of the above...good question. I
have learned that it's not as important what your beliefs are as what you
choose to do about them. I do feel that, if your beliefs fill you with
dispair, you should consider another belief system. Also, a state of
anger/dispair at the whole enchilada might indicate a need for a doctor's
attention. I don't like it when people curse God and the human race and
rail that we all deserve to die...but no, I don't think God or the Goddess
is offended: they either don't exist, or they don't react to such
brattiness. :)



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:24:43 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Collaring
Message-Id: <199681313263539961@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Robert/Fiona wrote:

To what extent can/is it helpful or possible for collaring to be
extended beyond playtimes? Do any list members or associated partners
actually have the nerve/confidence/environment (we have none of these we
think) to wear a collar publicly? Have any list members conceived of
what would be some sort of alternative marriage ceremony where the sub
partner (whether it is F/m, F/f or what) is (semi?-) publicly collared
because that has become such a symbol of their relationship that they
want to make that statement public?

I often have my sub wear a collar when we go out to the gay bar or to
leather events. Out and about in public it is possible, but be prepared to
answer questions. I have many friends who wear their collars night and day.
There are different kinds of collars you can consider, and chain jewelry is
common. There are lots of other subtle and not-so-subtle ways for the sub
to display sub status.

I have personally conducted or participated in several enslaving marriage
ceremonies. Usually this is the private ceremony, with a separate public
one for vanilla family and friends. :)




Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: David Lodge/Collars
Message-Id: <199608131909.MAA22422@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fiona and Robert wrote:
To what extent can/is it helpful or possible for collaring to be
extended beyond playtimes? Do any list members or associated partners
actually have the nerve/confidence/environment (we have none of these we
think) to wear a collar publicly?

I've worn a collar, night and day, for about four months straight at one
point, both as symbol of and reminder of a certain relationship. For me,
it was helpful, because the weight of the collar (moderately heavy bright
steel choke collar w/ small padlock) was in some ways reassuring. Its
presence reminded me that I was in someone's service, which kept me from
indulging in some of my more or less self-destructive pastimes. (Looking
for trouble in low-class bars, and getting in even more trouble in high
class establishments of another sort

At work, I always made sure to keep it concealed beneath shirt and tie, but
other than that, it was pretty much always visible -- even my vanilla
friends knew what it stood for, and I'm not known for being self-conscious,
so people commenting on or asking about it wasn't a problem either. (At
work, it was neither something anyone needed to know, nor something I felt
the need to inflict awareness of onto co-workers.)

Outside work, it was kinda interesting - strange looks from some people,
compliments from archtypical "little old ladies" who had -no- idea that it
stood for anything, and enquiring questions from a fair number of women
who I knew or ran into. A surprising number of them reacted better than
neutrally to learning of that side of me. Which reminds me, I need to
go get another chain an' lock - it's one way of making sure I don't find
myself involved with a D/s negative ladyfriend. :)

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 19:36:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: Poor me
Message-Id: <199608140236.TAA14519@netcom23.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 938

Poor, poor me.

Sunday my computer was burgled right out of my house, and is now on its
way to a pawn shop no doubt.

List files are all safe here on Netcom.

I am posting from deepest Vanilla for the fewƒOq≥
minutes I have this machine.

Good news is that the insurance company is heavily into Abundance, so I
will be all fitted out with a killer machine in about 2 weeks or so.

Timberwolf would be proud. :)

Meanwhile, look for the occasional furtive postcard or voice call to Dee,
stay away from religion, know that I love you all, and accept this [[[hug]]].

Peace.

coyote sings

[whose very .sig got nicked]

"What does not kill me makes me stranger."

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:28:10 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Poor me
Message-ID:

FEPoor, poor me.

FESunday my computer was burgled right out of my house, and is now on its
FEway to a pawn shop no doubt.

FEList files are all safe here on Netcom.

FEI am posting from deepest Vanilla for the fewƒOq≥
FEminutes I have this machine.

FEGood news is that the insurance company is heavily into Abundance, so I
FEwill be all fitted out with a killer machine in about 2 weeks or so.

FETimberwolf would be proud. :)

FEMeanwhile, look for the occasional furtive postcard or voice call to Dee,
FEstay away from religion, know that I love you all, and accept this [[[hug]]]

FEPeace.

FEcoyote sings

FE[whose very .sig got nicked]

FE"What does not kill me makes me stranger."

Re: The above. Bullshit.

Goddess told me she wants you to move to Long Island.

Kittheth!
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 00:00:50 -0500
From: New User
To: femsupremacy
Subject: Bringing It all back Home
Message-Id: <9608140404.AA06169@mhv.net
content-length: 1545

-- [ From: New User * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --

from Dorian.

Am wondering whether domestic FS relationships will become more commonplace
as a result of the opening up provided by the internet. One is aware that
there are many more sub-men out there than there are dommes for them, at
least on a matrimonial basis. Is it possible that more women will come to
appreciate this aspect of male sexuality and longing, as it all becomes
more visible, in part because of the luxuriant growth of BDSM websites?
Women's sex fantasies appear to be changing, at least if the anecdotal
evidence of Nancy Friday's work is anything to go by and women are becoming
more assertive, more open about their wants and less haunted by rape
fantasies (at least in the USA). I see websites and magazines like "Whap"
and I wonder just what sort of effect this might have. If a sub who is
perhaps dating a woman presents that woman with an appropriate and expensive
gift, a hairbrush and a copy of "Whap" (or similar publication) just what is
likely to happen? I know that FS does not necessarily have to depend on
FemDom techniques, but in practise I expect that subs will respond most
strongly to FS in a FemDom setting. Could this be the beginning of a wider
acceptance of this style of loving?



femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 183

Today's Topics:
Re: Life, the universe, and everything
David Lodge/Collars
Some happenings from around the world
Re: Some happenings from around the world
Article on Women's Health
Re: Article on Women's Health



well adam and eve are incest...the way they tell it now...god as their
father..her taken from his rib...very limited gene pool that...
they were brother and sister and all their children..etc...is
genetically impossible that all humans came from one gene pool...we
would have all died off by now...

I like the one about....God made Adam, fixed all the mistakes and made
the perfect model....Eve.
Patricia


Laura Goodwin wrote:

Here is a version of an old myth I like; stop me if you have heard this one:

* In the beginning all was dark and the Goddess was alone. To amuse
herself, She curved space into a mirror so She could see her own reflection.
She fell in love with what She saw, and began to long for someone like
Herself whom She could embrace. This grew, and out of Her desire the God
was born. The birth was painful, but the moment The Goddess beheld Her
divine child She forgot Her pain. He grew, and like Her was in every way
perfect, but since He was modelled on Her reflection He was in some ways Her
opposite.

When they embraced, the power of their love lit up the universe. Out of
this all the uncountable things were born. At the center of everything the
Goddess and God still embrace, and their perfect love sustains the universe. *

What I like about this myth is it says that even the Goddess knows pain and
desire and these are a part of life. There is no sin, no fall from grace,
opposites are a part of life. Male and female are equally divine, but the
female's primacy is established. At the center of everything is love.
Desire is why things exist. Everything has a divine source. Most
importantly, it hints very strongly that there is no separation between
heaven and earth, between humans and the diety. I get a picture in my mind
of everything growing from the center like a crystaline structure. The
Goddess and God are our parents: we are one family and the natural living
things are all our siblings.

A couple of people I told this to had a funny reaction: they said, "But
that's incest!" LOL!
"Well, " I said, "who did Cain marry?" LOL! ;)
It's a myth, D'oh! :::thunk::: LOL

Blessings,
Laura Goodwin

"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:05:23 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: David Lodge/Collars
Message-ID:

Hello all

We have not actually been able to access the list for three/four days so
if anyone feels we may have missed something they had hoped we would
see, feel free to send something. Now that we are back in gear, there
have been three more or less unconnected thoughts that might be of some
interest.

David Lodge

Some of you will have come across this UK author. Lots of Penguin
paperbacks here and he is published in the USA too. His Changing Places
was a comedy all about university life in the UK/USA. Several of his
books have been televised. Not yet on the small screen is How far Can
You Go? Published in 1980, Robert discovered it then and it has been
very influential in his religious thinking. For an excellent and comic
(!?) disussion on birth control or even the challenge of innocent
suffering he is a key text. Without any help from Robert, the book was
adopted as a set text of an Open University course in Britain which
Robert has wound up teaching.

Now this gets like a Ronnie Corbet shaggy dog story which you will
either loath or love: the OU course has been one of the factors that has
led to Robert thinking about FS. Its text book The Growth of Religious
Diversity in Great Britain since 1945 has a chapter on Women in
Religion. On the one hand the fs arguments put forward there intrigued
Robert and Fiona (though neither of us by any means agreed with all we
read), on the other hand since the volume was supposed to be non-
confessional, Robert found its mode of debate questionable to put it
mildly. He promptly got himself into hot water for crossing the tribe of
political correctness. Anyway that is really another story, however it
has certainly along with this list prompted Robert to see things he may
not have seen before.

So hey presto, is there a fem supremacy debate in How Far Can You Go?
Anyone who can access the book will have a good read, you will also see
it operates at several levels. It is also seen as an exercise in testing
rules of literature, it is a constant gameplay on How far Can You Go?

The reason why Robert wonders if there is a fs level in it relates to
the different female characters. They exemplify all sorts of types but
increasingly Robert wonders if a greater proportion of the females than
the males in the book end up having it all better sorted out. You will
have to check this out for yourselves but one clue on p145 relates to
one of the couples:"A Great Shift of gravity had taken place in the
marriage, a transfer of will and power from Dennis to Angela". This is
all in the context of an accidental death of a child and the birth of a
mongoloid child so please don't think this is flippant reading. It is
still very funny in places, it may also make you weep and angry.
Nonetheless we are interested to see if any in FS saw what we are
wondering may be another level in this novel.

Collars

For a long time Fiona has collared/leashed Robert but only in playtimes
where we both find it very effective. Obviously we have read fantasy
accounts where the collar has taken on a great deal of significance as a
sign of submissiveness and so there are accounts of slaves being
collared as part of an ownership process.

To what extent can/is it helpful or possible for collaring to be
extended beyond playtimes? Do any list members or associated partners
actually have the nerve/confidence/environment (we have none of these we
think) to wear a collar publicly? Have any list members conceived of
what would be some sort of alternative marriage ceremony where the sub
partner (whether it is F/m, F/f or what) is (semi?-) publicly collared
because that has become such a symbol of their relationship that they
want to make that statement public?

Of course this could all read as pretty esoteric but it is only because
it all sounds so unfamiliar. It is hardly in concept any different to an
exchange of rings along with the old 1662 wedding vows where the woman
promises to love honour and obey the man. Vows that some still use in
public ceremonies in English churches where not an eyebrow will be
raised (fine if you are a real female submissive but hardly applicable
to any other character).

An old Forum

Every now and again because our house resembles nothing so much as an
archive and library we have a clear out (funny that Fiona is a
librarian). The space dedicated to relational literature is rationed and
in one clear out some years ago, backnumbers of Forum were pulped.

Baby with bathwater territory and we now regret not copying one feature
from the mid 80's that is still ingrained in Robert's memory from before
he met Fiona. We have had one list member doing a search and drew a
blank (many thanks DS) so we are throwing the net wider. The bonus is
that R suspects that this feature would ring bells with a lot of list
members.

Clues to this mystery hunt:
in a UK published issue of Forum magazine published some time in 1984-86
(or perhaps a year or so earlier) there is a feature not a letter about
a fem domme and her partner. We think they were located somewhere in NW
England and that her name was Patricia. Each partner described what they
got out of the relationship. The lady was into whipping him hard. In his
description he quoted a very effective piece of poetry which Robert has
totally fogotten. Clearly the two dearly loved each other despite the
guy having a hard time. Robert remembers it as one of the nicest but
also most evocative and compelling descriptions of fd he has seen. As he
read it, he knew it described a lifestyle that he sought (and found). It
would be nice to find a copy of this article to keep, in view of the
influence it has had and also to see whether other list members find it
similiarly inspiring. Would'nt it be lovely to discover the couple were
still so attached to one another a decade later? Oh the marvellous
possibilities of the net.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway after all of this, we will try to lapse back into peace and quiet
again for a while.
--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Some happenings from around the world
Message-Id: <199608121917.MAA01761@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1469

Here's a post I came across on another list. It's not meant to be
reflective of all Muslims, all of those in Israel, etc. It's simply
some examples of things that _are_ happening around the world. If
anyone has any more detailed information on any of these things, feel
free to share.

Forwarded post follows:

" Well, in a promise of things to come ... On July 21, 1996, four women
were summarily decapitated by Muslim fundies on an Algerian beach for
wearing bikinis.
Women in Jerusalem and other places in Israel are being spat on,
stoned in the Old Testament manner, and their cars vandalized and the car
tires slashed because they are wearing short sleeved blouses and
moderately short skirts.
Avraham Ravitz, a rabbi and Knesset member from the ultra-Orthodox
United Torah Judaism party said the women should behave, and went on to
say, "I'm not sure which violence is worse -- being provocative (wearing a
short-sleeved blouse?) against the people who live there, or breaking the
car."
The American Promise Keepers are encouraging men to take back the
leadership of their homes and to start telling women how to behave morally
again .... "

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:20:36 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Some happenings from around the world
Message-ID: <320FAE33.41BF@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

and ALL IN THE NAME OF GOD
actually if I were god (and I feel like I am certainly, at least, one
dna of her spirit) I would tell the whole world to just stop loving me
so much and go about the business of loving each other........
Patricia


Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

Here's a post I came across on another list. It's not meant to be
reflective of all Muslims, all of those in Israel, etc. It's simply
some examples of things that _are_ happening around the world. If
anyone has any more detailed information on any of these things, feel
free to share.

Forwarded post follows:

" Well, in a promise of things to come ... On July 21, 1996, four women
were summarily decapitated by Muslim fundies on an Algerian beach for
wearing bikinis.
Women in Jerusalem and other places in Israel are being spat on,
stoned in the Old Testament manner, and their cars vandalized and the car
tires slashed because they are wearing short sleeved blouses and
moderately short skirts.
Avraham Ravitz, a rabbi and Knesset member from the ultra-Orthodox
United Torah Judaism party said the women should behave, and went on to
say, "I'm not sure which violence is worse -- being provocative (wearing a
short-sleeved blouse?) against the people who live there, or breaking the
car."
The American Promise Keepers are encouraging men to take back the
leadership of their homes and to start telling women how to behave morally
again .... "

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Article on Women's Health
Message-Id: <199608121937.MAA01784@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 6726

"The Medicine Gap," by Mark Nichols, from Maclean's magazine
(http://www.canoe.ca/macleans)

****************************************************************

Ask women which disease is most likely to threaten their lives,
pollsters report, and the majority will say breast cancer. It is a
widespread impression, and it is wrong. Among women as well as men in
North America, heart disease is the No. 1 killer. But poll
respondents are not alone in being poorly informed about women's
health risks. Because women usually have heart attacks later in life
than men, and have different symptoms, doctors often fail to diagnose
their heart problems until it is too late. Such doctors, say experts
campaigning for a new approach to women's health issues, are usually
older men--the kind who, out of sheer ignorance, may attribute a
woman's chest pains to a panic attack, rather than an impending heart
attack. "It's still very much a problem," says Penny Ballem, a senior
administrator at the British Columbia Women's Hospital in Vancouver.
"We still have doctors patting women on the head and telling them not
to worry."

Throughout North America, healt-care specialists are making major
efforts to address that problem and others that can result in women
receiving substandard health care. In one of many such initiatives,
Canadians and Americans active in the fast-developing field of women's
health are gathering for a conference in Ottawa at the end of this
week. Aimed at encouraging a cross-border information exchange on
issues ranging from breast cancer to violence against women, the
meeting involves about 300 doctors, researchers, government officials
and women's health advocates. It is the first Canada-U.S. conference
on the subject to be sponsored by both governmnets. And it comes at a
time when activists' demands for programs tailored to women's needs
are increasingly being recognized. "There's been quite a lot of
progress, said Dr. May Cohen, a professor of family medicine at
McMaster University in Hamilton and a prominent figure in the field of
women's health. "But we're still at an early stage."

Women are beginning to move into senior positions in the health-care
system, and hospitals, clinics and research centres devoted to women's
health are springing up across the continent. Much of the activity
has flowed from the efforts of a small but vocal group of crusaders.
Says Ballem: "We've managed to make a lot of noise."

One of the principal goals of the movement has been to shift the
health-care system away from the outmoded medical belief that
women--apart from their reproductive functions--are essentially like
men. "Medical teaching," says Cohen, "until fairly recently, was on
the basis of a 155-lb. male." As a result, medical research and drug
traisl routinely concentrated on men--a 1988 U.S. study showing that
ASA could help prevent heart attacks was based entirely on male data,
which meant that the findings could not be applied to women. Now,
major U.S. funding agencies require research both sexes, and Ottawa's
Medical Research Council is moving in the same direction. At the same
time, advocates have campaigned to channel more research money into
diseases such as breast cancer, osteoporosis and heart disease that
afflict women more often, of differently than men. Says Cohen:
"We've come to understand women's health in very different ways than
before."

Advocates are also pressing for a quantum leap in understanding by
demanding that doctors view women's health not only in medical terms,
but in social, cultural and economic contexts as well. As a case in
point, critics blame the near-epidemic of eating disorders among North
American women on the influence of ubiquitous images of willowy
females in advertising and movies. "The pressure on high-school girls
to have beautiful bodies is just immense," says Ballem. "And the
health-care system is not equipped to handle the eating disorders that
result.

At the same time, advocates say that income levels are one of the
principal determinants of women's health. "If a woman is facing heavy
responsibilities looking after her family and she is poor and not well
nourished," says Donna Chow, a medical researcher at the University
of Manitoba in Winnipeg, "she's going to have health problems."

And then there is male violence, one of the most pervasive health
problems faced by women. A 1993 Statistics Canada survey reported
that nearly 30 percent of women who were married or living in
common-law relationships had been physically or sexually assaulted by
their partners. And a paper prepared for the Ottawa meeting puts the
social, medical and economic costs of sexual violence against Canadian
women and girls at $4.2 billion a year.

Despite that, women's health advocates say that doctors and other
health care workers frequently fail to identify violence as a factor
in women's health. "We want doctors to be able to spot abuse
victims," said conference co-chairwoman Abby Hoffman, a 1960s and
'70s-era track star who now directs the federal government's Women's
Health Bureau, "rather than sweeping the issue under the carpet and
sending women away with a sedative." At a time when a growing number
of women are getting AIDS--usually from having unprotected sex with
infected males--experts are pressing for more research into the
effects of the disease on the female body. Nearly 900 Canadian women
currently have AIDS--and more than 560 have died of the disease.
According to some activists, women infected with AIDS do not live as
long as men who have the disease--perhaps because their early symptoms
are often wrongly diagnosed and treatment is started later.

While progress is being made on many fronts in the women's health
campaign, some experts fear that in an era of fiscal retrenchment by
governments, the cause of women's health may suffer setbacks. "When
governments cut social programs and off-load responsibilities to the
community," says McMaster's Cohen, "a lot of the burden falls on the
unpaid labor of women, whose health can be affected as a result."
Offsetting some of that concern, Health Minister David Dingwaall
announced a $10-million program in June to set up five research
centres in women's health across the country during the next six
years. It was further encouraging evidence that new approaches to
women's health are gradually overcoming a legacy of ignorance and
neglect.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:40:46 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Article on Women's Health
Message-ID: <320FB2EE.2B9@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

thanks ...Dee-Ann
I will immediately add this to my women's health page...
Patricia

Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

"The Medicine Gap," by Mark Nichols, from Maclean's magazine
(http://www.canoe.ca/macleans)

****************************************************************

Ask women which disease is most likely to threaten their lives,
pollsters report, and the majority will say breast cancer. It is a
widespread impression, and it is wrong. Among women as well as men in
North America, heart disease is the No. 1 killer. But poll
respondents are not alone in being poorly informed about women's
health risks. Because women usually have heart attacks later in life
than men, and have different symptoms, doctors often fail to diagnose
their heart problems until it is too late. Such doctors, say experts
campaigning for a new approach to women's health issues, are usually
older men--the kind who, out of sheer ignorance, may attribute a
woman's chest pains to a panic attack, rather than an impending heart
attack. "It's still very much a problem," says Penny Ballem, a senior
administrator at the British Columbia Women's Hospital in Vancouver.
"We still have doctors patting women on the head and telling them not
to worry."

Throughout North America, healt-care specialists are making major
efforts to address that problem and others that can result in women
receiving substandard health care. In one of many such initiatives,
Canadians and Americans active in the fast-developing field of women's
health are gathering for a conference in Ottawa at the end of this
week. Aimed at encouraging a cross-border information exchange on
issues ranging from breast cancer to violence against women, the
meeting involves about 300 doctors, researchers, government officials
and women's health advocates. It is the first Canada-U.S. conference
on the subject to be sponsored by both governmnets. And it comes at a
time when activists' demands for programs tailored to women's needs
are increasingly being recognized. "There's been quite a lot of
progress, said Dr. May Cohen, a professor of family medicine at
McMaster University in Hamilton and a prominent figure in the field of
women's health. "But we're still at an early stage."

Women are beginning to move into senior positions in the health-care
system, and hospitals, clinics and research centres devoted to women's
health are springing up across the continent. Much of the activity
has flowed from the efforts of a small but vocal group of crusaders.
Says Ballem: "We've managed to make a lot of noise."

One of the principal goals of the movement has been to shift the
health-care system away from the outmoded medical belief that
women--apart from their reproductive functions--are essentially like
men. "Medical teaching," says Cohen, "until fairly recently, was on
the basis of a 155-lb. male." As a result, medical research and drug
traisl routinely concentrated on men--a 1988 U.S. study showing that
ASA could help prevent heart attacks was based entirely on male data,
which meant that the findings could not be applied to women. Now,
major U.S. funding agencies require research both sexes, and Ottawa's
Medical Research Council is moving in the same direction. At the same
time, advocates have campaigned to channel more research money into
diseases such as breast cancer, osteoporosis and heart disease that
afflict women more often, of differently than men. Says Cohen:
"We've come to understand women's health in very different ways than
before."

Advocates are also pressing for a quantum leap in understanding by
demanding that doctors view women's health not only in medical terms,
but in social, cultural and economic contexts as well. As a case in
point, critics blame the near-epidemic of eating disorders among North
American women on the influence of ubiquitous images of willowy
females in advertising and movies. "The pressure on high-school girls
to have beautiful bodies is just immense," says Ballem. "And the
health-care system is not equipped to handle the eating disorders that
result.

At the same time, advocates say that income levels are one of the
principal determinants of women's health. "If a woman is facing heavy
responsibilities looking after her family and she is poor and not well
nourished," says Donna Chow, a medical researcher at the University
of Manitoba in Winnipeg, "she's going to have health problems."

And then there is male violence, one of the most pervasive health
problems faced by women. A 1993 Statistics Canada survey reported
that nearly 30 percent of women who were married or living in
common-law relationships had been physically or sexually assaulted by
their partners. And a paper prepared for the Ottawa meeting puts the
social, medical and economic costs of sexual violence against Canadian
women and girls at $4.2 billion a year.

Despite that, women's health advocates say that doctors and other
health care workers frequently fail to identify violence as a factor
in women's health. "We want doctors to be able to spot abuse
victims," said conference co-chairwoman Abby Hoffman, a 1960s and
'70s-era track star who now directs the federal government's Women's
Health Bureau, "rather than sweeping the issue under the carpet and
sending women away with a sedative." At a time when a growing number
of women are getting AIDS--usually from having unprotected sex with
infected males--experts are pressing for more research into the
effects of the disease on the female body. Nearly 900 Canadian women
currently have AIDS--and more than 560 have died of the disease.
According to some activists, women infected with AIDS do not live as
long as men who have the disease--perhaps because their early symptoms
are often wrongly diagnosed and treatment is started later.

While progress is being made on many fronts in the women's health
campaign, some experts fear that in an era of fiscal retrenchment by
governments, the cause of women's health may suffer setbacks. "When
governments cut social programs and off-load responsibilities to the
community," says McMaster's Cohen, "a lot of the burden falls on the
unpaid labor of women, whose health can be affected as a result."
Offsetting some of that concern, Health Minister David Dingwaall
announced a $10-million program in June to set up five research
centres in women's health across the country during the next six
years. It was further encouraging evidence that new approaches to
women's health are gradually overcoming a legacy of ignorance and
neglect.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #183
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 182

Today's Topics:
Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: Change, it's a comin'!
Re: Change, it's a comin'!
Life (was Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Re: Web pages
Re: Do you like men?
Her ! Here ! on Books
Re: Monogamy
Ending Arguments (Was Re Change, it's...)
Life, the universe, and everything
Re: unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-Id: <199608110926.CAA28844@netcom23.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 3981

Peace, all.

I had hoped to be quiet another week or two and get caught up on
private email (and even earn a living- novel concept), but Nooooooo, y'all
had to go and start posting about religion. :P

My modest offerings, herewith:

1. The 10 Commandments are not Christian, although they are part of the
Christian heritage from the Jews. Christians are not bound by them, and
Jesus was quite vehement about making the point that no one was bound by
them. Instead he laft his followers 2 new meta-Commandments: Love God, and
love your neighbor. He also asked his followers to keep in touch with him
via baptism and by partaking of his impending sacrifice by continuing the
'last' supper. He told them some stories and otherwise illustrated God's
love. He gave them a short prayer to say. He proclaimed an end to
religion and told stories about love, not morality. This pisssed a lot of
people off and they killed him, as he knew they would, much as the idea
terrified him. He died a horrible death, but one which somehow radically
transformed human awareness and affect. End of Jesus and Christianity.
Neither Christianity nor any other religion are about morality. They're
about identity.


Dee Ann is right, morality is not engraved in stone, no matter what the
Bible says.

2. It doesn't say anything about morality. At least not to me. I don't know
what morality is, but I hope it means acting out of a knowledge of being
loved. If that is so, people don't act 'morally' to get to 'Heaven,' but
because they've already been there. :9

(I don't believe in an 'afterlife,' so this gets difficult for me,
because I don't believe in linear time. I just affirm 'life' whenever. Duh.)

Murder, for example, is considered justifiable and even
righteous under certain circumstances, even in the Bible, for example, when
God authorized the slaughter of the Midianites.

3. Doubtful, more likely reflects people on the ground making up stories
to suit their politics. How can trust people who lie about God's gender to
get the politics straight? The love comes through (mostly in the white
spaces and the silences and in real kink like the mark of Cain), the rest
is rather more local and more, uh, human.

God himself is a murderer:
the Bible is rife with stories of divinely authorized killings, most
famously, the humiliating public execution of his own son.

4. Totally necessary. No execution, no death to overcome and redfine, no
story. Instead, just another rural magician railing on about UFOs, black
helicopters and Whitewater.

All Gods are murderers. It's part of the deal: creation, pride, fall,
start over. The 'fall' part is not pretty. Ask Shiva. But gotta have it.
Make way for new growth.

5.

People decide what is moral, and people can change their minds.

And then put the morality in the mouths of their gods: naughty, naughty.

(Occasionally a god will get tired of this and say something like 'Vengeance
is _mine_, Sparky,' or something equally memorable.)

6.
People are changing,

Or else. The investigation of this process is known as 'history.'

7. My point:

Religion is not about morality, or what we (should) do.

It is about identity, or who we are.

Religion, by helping people connect with myths (previously defined) and
the symbols (tools, mirrors) of life, allows people to know themselves.
(If it hides people from themselves, it's not religion- it's abuse.)

People who thus know and like themselves tend to go out and do nice things.

Peace :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

c.s.,

Welcome back, Old Dog, and thanks. It's pretty easy to fall prey
to the Christian-bashing instinct when all you hear are the hateful voices
of those who have misappropriated some very fine lessons. Fortunately,
I've learned that those who speak softly have more to teach than those
who scream.

Peace,

Barry

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:45:03 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-Id: <1996811104838141@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Thanks coyote, for a cool post, but I must insist, *gentlemen*, before
anybody starts calling me "shrill" or anything, that the topic of religion
and morality not be brought up at all, unless people have the wits to lace
their gloves on *before* they step into the ring with me.

I'm not whistling Dixie here, y'know. I have strong opinions on this
subject for which I have struggled and sacrificed much, and risked my life.
Don't ring my bell and run away like a childish bastard, because I will
chase you down.

The way to end an arguement is not to quote the Bible, that's the way to
start one, and that's true no matter where you go, anymore.

This is not the "let's all everybody agree to disagree real nice, so don't
get worked up, Laura." list. This is the femsupremacy list, and I will not
tolerate Bible quoting quietly. I will challenge blatant sexism and obvious
Bible-thumping anywhere, but especially HERE, and I'm surprised anybody
here would do otherwise.

Forget you guys, I'm talking to the women now:

Listen, we gotta not tolerate this insideous worming in of tired old
ethics, (and Pat, since you have read *Gyn/Ecology* I know you know what I
mean). Gyn/Ecology is a fantastic book. I read it when pregnant with my
first son, and was inspired to have my baby at home with a midwife, among
other things. Women have to trust their own wisdom, their own bodies, and
tune out the voices of oppression that belong now in the past.

I see dark coulds over the horizon...LOL! Could it be that somebody thinks
my opinions are *too strong*? LOL! ;)




Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:28:47 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'!
Message-Id: <199681111322316334@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dee Ann is right, morality is not engraved in stone, no matter what the
Bible says. Murder, for example, is considered justifiable and even
righteous under certain circumstances, even in the Bible...

As to "not getting it", speaking of Christian teachings, I get it fine: I
just don't buy it. Rigorous intellectual endeavor and passionate seeking
will tend to shrink your comfort zone, so if some Christians here are
uncomfy, tough. You were making me uncomfy with your reflexive B.S., now
it's your turn. ;)

I paddled and caned my husband before a roomful of supportive witnesses
last night. He was being punished for disrespectful behavior toward me.
No one in my circle of RL friends questioned my judgement or my right to do
so. When I was finished, he thanked me, and my friends applauded me.
*That's* the kind of life I'm living, *that's* the kind of gal I am. You
meet people like that on a list like this.

Did you think when you joined this list that there was a possibility that
even here your Sunday school teacher would go unchallenged? This is not
the place to scream "Male Basher!" or "Christian Basher!". Blatant sexism
and Bible-thumping has no place here. This is a forum for the promotion of
women and women's thought, not another haven for conformity and the
smoothing of masculine egos. :)

As Madonna says in her song, "Human nature"... "I'm not sorry. I'm not
your bitch: don't lay your shit on me."

Women are taking a close and critical look at life, and the laws we live
life by, and for no other reason than to reshape reality to our liking.
This can be an exhilarating exercise, and when the veins begin to pop out
on the men's necks, that's when you know you are really getting somewhere.

One of the worst things a woman can do is to live in fear of a fight. Step
right up, ladies, step right up! We have got to work on our own skills and
confidence, so we can grapple with difficulties sucessfully, living free,
unbowed and uncowed! If to make room for ourselves men have to shove the
hell waaaay over, then, so be it!



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 11:55:17 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Change, it's a comin'!
Message-ID: <320E2C94.5295@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Step
right up, ladies, step right up! We have got to work on our own skills and
confidence, so we can grapple with difficulties sucessfully, living free,
unbowed and uncowed!


BRAVO...and I will add my voice...

The reason, of course,
for a god in the sky (a male one or a half and half one) is twofold:
(I am not speaking of spirituality here)
first: if its the male one it shows that men have supremacy in the image
of god...

second: it defines the patriarchy, their must be a leader see there is
god.

I made a statement here before and did not clarify it. It was "the more
we give up to god the less we retain of ourselves." Let me go further
into that. It means a couple of things. It means because of god we
don't have to take responsibility for our own actions..at the bottom
line...we are only human after all. God has a plan "he, she or it".
How often do we hear this said. People act very irresponsibly and "they
are only human" an overarching excuse for us never to assume final
responsibility for ourselves and our actions. By the very nature (and
it is not natural..the language is corrupted) of accepting this god we
always have an excuse to not demand of ourselves to be the best we can
be...we can always slip..we have god for a safety net..we are only
human. BULL PUCKIES..

the second shame of "the more we give up to god the less we retain of
ourselves." is the potential we lose..we give up for safety. Sometimes
I want to scream. you see a Woman who undergoes great sacrifices (i am
sure men do too..but this is the femsupremacy list..not the we are the
MEN who give up our natural god-given supremacy to you ladies..thank us
list) to get to school or make something better of her life and she will
give up all responsibility for her own great strength and courage by
saying.....god gave me the strength. god gave her crap...she rose to
the occasion through her own hard work and initiative. Or..when you see
a child pinned under a car and a mother runs and lifts the car to save
her child...when asked where the strength came from they will report..a
miracle..(god's hand) BULL PUCKIES...she triggered the powers of her own
strength with her love for her child and brought all the adrenalin and
other hormones she needed pumping into her blood to save her child...she
did it...not god.

We get away with being totally uncivilized to others, individuals and
nations in the name of god. our god v. their god, or we what percieve
as their no god. We maim, kill, torture, rape other peoples and our
mother the earth as well in the name of some manifest destiny given to
us because we believe in the right god so therefore he gives us the
right to wreak havoc in the ballpark that is now ours because we give up
our power to him....NOT ME!!!

Patricia

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:38:11 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Life (was Re: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-ID: <320E36A3.F70@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Everyone--

I agree with Laura, Dee. CS and SW. Much of what each of you has
contributed to this thread rings true for me. An ex-Catholic, but
a spiritual woman, I agree with the basics of each belief system.
It rings true for each religion (don't steal, don't kill, don't
lie, honor/love our neighbors, relatives and ourselves, etc.), but
when any religion dictates that they are the ONLY RIGHT RELIGION,
then that is when things go awry. Look at the Crusades, the Pilgrims
and why they left England, the Nazis... There is always someone
out there who will pursecute others in the name of being the only
RIGHT ones.

I have practiced something for many years and in the last 5 or so,
it has been labelled: Practice Random Acts of Kindness. I believe
that if we put out good, do good, think good, and it may not
necessarily follow the "norm" or the "standard moral code" or what-
ever, but it will come back to us.

I believe in all the spirituality of all the religions (karma, for
example), and do not necessarily agree with every bit of every
religion, especially, when religions say there are people who
should be excluded: blacks, women, jews, indians, asians, children,
etc. Or that one type of person has only one role: women SHOULD
take care of the children and the home, men SHOULD take care of the
providing, children SHOULD be seen and not heard...

Everyone should go out and do what they feel is right; what will not
hurt others or themselves; treat the earth, animals, ANY beings that
exist with kindess and consideration and respect.

I don't mean to be preachy or get on a soap box or anything like that,
but this is how I believe and what I try very hard to practice. I think
if all beings practiced kindness, consideration and respect and lived
lives of integrity and honesty and love, then things would be so nice.
BUT with people being who they are and what they are, we do the best
we can with what we have and what we are.

CS: People who thus know and like themselves tend to go out and do nice things.

Yes, CS, I agree with this very much.

Sorry, 'bout the soapboxing... I'm a bit overwhelmed with moving and
this is my first post in a while. My British friend's father died last
week and too much is going on in my life right now, so I will only be
posting sporadically for a couple of weeks. I miss all of you, but will
continue to lurk unless I see something so engaging that I cannot resist
posting to give my 2 cents.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:05:02 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Web pages
Message-ID: <320E590E.2DA0@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patricia--

hugs Jet...I am better today..and everyone has been so helpful.
just a momentary glitch.....thanks
Patricia

It is just those glitches (bastards) that put a dim view of what
life is really all about. I don't care how strong we are, when
someone we call friend slams us in a way to make our own egos
doubt ourselves, we succumb. Then we need our TRUE friends to
help us over that "hump" and bring us back to center. You are
a very dear person, Patricia, and I dearly call you FRIEND.

My British friend, anthony, will be coming to Seattle soon. I
have high hopes that he will be my live-in slave. His father
just died and I have no idea what his emotional condition will
be, but I do know that he sincerely believes that he can serve
me as he has no other. He was married to a female supremacist
and knows how things "work" so to speak. But I am not her, and
I do things slightly different. I haven't physically met him
yet and don't know if there will be chemistry. Voice-wise and
email-wise, it seems as if we do. I am so excited.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:28:14 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Do you like men?
Message-ID: <320E5E7E.158D@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura--

I saw a note where you say you like to dominate men?
What does that mean? Do you like and respect men?
Do men like you? Do you have some desire to be
unkind to men? Tell me how you treat men and
why you enjoy it.

I get mail like this all the time and usually just delete it because I'm
busy, and I figure this joker could just go read a book or something. How
do you handle unsolicited "Mommy, tell me the story of your life..." mail?
I strongly suspect this is some person's attempt to get some hot juicy stuff.

I think you are correct in assuming that this person is looking to
get off...

However, it could be that he may be sincerely interested
in what it means because perhaps he is submissive and doesn't have
any idea of the correct way to ask the questions respectfully.

I would tend to go with the first impression. You could either
drop the whole thing or ask him questions in return.

I had something like this happen where someone asked some "innocent"
questions and then stabbed me in the back, so to speak, telling me
I was a bad person for wanting to be a Domme and Domming over men.
It is hard to say. On the other hand, I have met a couple of very
nice subs by asking them questions back and finding that they were
just sub-curious (no pun intended). ;P

I usually follow-up emails like this with one in return asking a few
questions of my own and then based on what they reply with, either
drop them if they're not nice or keep emailing them if they are sincere.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:52:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kalika
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Her ! Here ! on Books
Message-Id: <199608112352.XAA03845@netbox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A strong round of Here ! Here ! for the reference to Barbara G. Walker's
work (She also has a lovely fiction work "Amazon , A Novel" which is very
"current").

Also the same for *any* work by Mary Daly !!!

I would like to add that "The Castration of Oedipus, ..Feminism,
Psychoanalysis, and the Will to Power", by Carla J. Ferstman and J.C. Smith
(NYU Press), and Smith's earlier work, "Psychoanalytic Roots of Patriarchy
,... The Neurotic Foundation of Social Order", are both *very* insightful
titles.

Also, a work that touches very much of the current movement to the
Matriarchal is "Gospel of the Goddess" by Pamela Suffield.

Sorry to mention it, but I am one of those with that pesky "Reply To" thing,
so please check it. Thanks.

Kalika

kalika@netbox.com




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 03:12:37 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Fem. suprem."
Subject: Re: Monogamy
Message-Id: <199608120112.DAA23960@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:45:20 -0700, Spirit Wind wrote:

gods before me, etc. If God made the universe, I suppose it's not
unreasonable that God makes the rules. If you want to stay up pondering

If god made the universe, who made god?

some heavy thoughts, try Romans 1:18 to 32. Put same sex marriage into
context there, and you'll be doing something.

The bible is just another book. It's not the Truth. It's definitely an
awesome best-seller, but considering the marketing it gets, it's hardly
surprising. There is also quite a lot of wisdom in it, but on the other
hand the fanatics it and all other belief systems attract cause a lot of
grief all over the world too.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 04:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Ending Arguments (Was Re Change, it's...)
Message-Id: <199608121154.EAA11957@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin wrote:
The way to end an arguement is not to quote the Bible, that's the way to
start one, and that's true no matter where you go, anymore.

That's right - the way to win an argument using a Bible is to hit the
other person over the head with one of the -reallly- big heavy Bibles, or
to gag the person with one of the little pocket ones (feel free to use a
large one for this purpose, if it seems appropriate). ;-

This is not the "let's all everybody agree to disagree real nice, so don't
get worked up, Laura." list. This is the femsupremacy list, and I will not
tolerate Bible quoting quietly. I will challenge blatant sexism and obvious
Bible-thumping anywhere, but especially HERE, and I'm surprised anybody
here would do otherwise.

Some others of us 'ere haven't -- I'm not overly fond of the trappings of
Judeo-Christianity, I'm not fond of the mind-sets it's used to create an'
perpetuate, an' I'm most certainly not fond at all of having it thrust at
me as the word of God! (Oh, that's right though - that's what they say
it is.... *sigh*

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:48:30 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Life, the universe, and everything
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960812134830.0069f07c@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Here is a version of an old myth I like; stop me if you have heard this one:

* In the beginning all was dark and the Goddess was alone. To amuse
herself, She curved space into a mirror so She could see her own reflection.
She fell in love with what She saw, and began to long for someone like
Herself whom She could embrace. This grew, and out of Her desire the God
was born. The birth was painful, but the moment The Goddess beheld Her
divine child She forgot Her pain. He grew, and like Her was in every way
perfect, but since He was modelled on Her reflection He was in some ways Her
opposite.

When they embraced, the power of their love lit up the universe. Out of
this all the uncountable things were born. At the center of everything the
Goddess and God still embrace, and their perfect love sustains the universe. *

What I like about this myth is it says that even the Goddess knows pain and
desire and these are a part of life. There is no sin, no fall from grace,
opposites are a part of life. Male and female are equally divine, but the
female's primacy is established. At the center of everything is love.
Desire is why things exist. Everything has a divine source. Most
importantly, it hints very strongly that there is no separation between
heaven and earth, between humans and the diety. I get a picture in my mind
of everything growing from the center like a crystaline structure. The
Goddess and God are our parents: we are one family and the natural living
things are all our siblings.

A couple of people I told this to had a funny reaction: they said, "But
that's incest!" LOL!
"Well, " I said, "who did Cain marry?" LOL! ;)
It's a myth, D'oh! :::thunk::: LOL

Blessings,
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 96 13:26:07 EDT
From: Steve Collins <74363.267@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <960812172607_74363.267_HHG85-1@CompuServe.COM

Please remove me from list.

Thank you

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #182
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 181

Today's Topics:
Re: Family and Monogomy (That's 'Monogamy' isn't it?)
Re: Family and Monogomy
The reply-to problem.
Re: RFC 822 & Reply-To
Lady Phoenix
" The Rules"
[Fwd: Re: " The Rules"]
[Fwd: Re: " The Rules"]
Recent add
hey
Re: Recent add
Re: Recent add
Sexist Stone Age
Monogamy
The Goddess Ruled the "Sexist Stone Age".
Re: The Goddess Ruled the "Sexist Stone Age".
Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Family and Monogomy (That's 'Monogamy' isn't it?)
Message-Id: <199608082250.PAA00729@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2223

Chase Vogelsberg wrote:

In one sense I'd agree - they're heroic, yes, an' should receive some
honor as such. But - it's -easier- to go out and risk one's life being
a hero (*imo*) than it is to struggle on day to day in the face of adver-
sity.

Fully agreed. Much easier to pull little heroic 1 day stunts than
have to live day to day barely providing a home and food for your
children, wondering how you'll ever be able to give them the
opportunities to help them move out of poverty. I'm not trying to
belittle the "heros" out there, but there's more than one kind of
heroism out there. Not to mention the fact that there _are_ women
among the hunters and fighters.

Any reason why women can't teach strength an' bravery? I've known any
number of women who were just as brave as men, in the same kind of ways.
Then again, courage is, again imo, on the decline in 'civilized' human
kind.

Once again, agreed. I would say my parents live in a somewhat male
dominant relationship, and yet my mother stands up for what she
believes in and is very strong. Actually, my father used to hunt.
Then, one day, a deer looked him straight in the eye, and for some
reason he couldn't do it anymore. He has actually stated that he
feels that I am the only one in my family who could probably go out
and hunt (I have a mother, father, and brother).

[some deleted]

Wait wait wait a second here! I've known an awful lot of people who've
been sexually abused while children, but -most- of them came from 'normal'
heterosexual quote unquote monogamous marriages - again, quite possibly,
because most of the families fell in that category. I think there's a
very big difference between a child being raised in, and accepting an
'alternative' family environment, and a child being neglected and abused.

Yup. The structure of the family isn't anywhere nearly as important
as the nature of the people involved.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 02:24:30 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Family and Monogomy
Message-Id: <199608090024.CAA02332@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 07:36:10 -0400, Laura Goodwin wrote:

husbands doesn't mean they can't be discrete about it. I think it's *just
possible* that kids would be raised better if they had more adults around
who felt responsible for them.

Yeah! It's that village thing.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 07:00:41 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: The reply-to problem.
Message-Id: <199608090727.JAA11233@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:40:03 -0700 (PDT), Chase Vogelsberg wrote:

(PS - Feh! You're -another- one with a bleeding "Reply To" that makes
replies -not- go to the list! My previous post probably went just to
you.

I've corresponded with the authors of PMMail about this, and according
to them RFC 822 makes the reply-to line a requirement in email. It is then
the responsibility of the owner of any mailing-list to change the reply-to
field as appropriate.

I haven't hade time to look up RFC 822 yet, but I thought I'd let
everyone know. Those of you who don't this problem are actually using
email clients, that are not in comlience with the specifications, it
seems.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Magnus Thelander | Fidonet: 2:200/422.21 | Fuck off, Uncle Sam.
|Drottninggatan 4A | Tel.: +46-708-535155 | Cyberspace is where
|212 11 Malmo | Timezone= CET + 1 | democracy lives.
|Sweden | | -Todd Lappin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:16:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: RFC 822 & Reply-To
Message-Id: <199608091216.FAA08232@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Magnus wrote:
I haven't hade time to look up RFC 822 yet, but I thought I'd let
everyone know. Those of you who don't this problem are actually using
email clients, that are not in comlience with the specifications, it
seems.

I sent Magnus a longer technical post about this, but upon actually
reading RFC 822: Standard for ARPA Internet Text Messages, the spec
actually states minimal complete headers which don't include a Reply-To
field, and contains other sections indicating its use is optional. If
anyone wants, I can send a copy of the tech message; otherwise, I just
-knew- that people would sleep easier at night knowing their mail soft-
ware wasn't actually non-compliant. ;-

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:10:05 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Lady Phoenix
Message-ID: <320D5D1D.7199@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Welcome to the sunlight. Don't lurk so long next time!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:23:53 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: " The Rules"
Message-ID: <320D6058.1C11@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Changing the pace from existential discussions about heavy subjects,

1. The female always makes the rules.
2. The rules are subject to change anytime without prior notification.
3. No male can possibly know all the rules.
4. If the female suspects the male knows all the rules, she must
immediately change some, or all of the rules.
5. The female is never wrong.
6. If the female is wrong, it is due to a misunderstanding, which was a
direct result of something the male did or said wrong.
7. If rule 6' applies, the male must apologize immediately for causing
the misunderstanding.
8. The female may change her mind at any time.
9. The male must never change his mind without the expressed written
consent of the female.
10. The female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The male must remain calm at all times, unless the female wants him
to be angry or upset.
12. The female must, under no circumstance, let the male know whether or
not she wants him to be angry or upset.
13. The male is expected to mind read at all times.
14. If the female has P.M.S., all the rules are null and void.
15. The female is ready when she is ready.
16. The male must be ready at all times.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 21:35:20 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: " The Rules"]
Message-ID: <320C1188.7E3C@tiac.net
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5F666BB722DB"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------5F666BB722DB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sorry...sent this to thughes by mistake..
for you all

--------------5F666BB722DB
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <320C103D.4866@tiac.net
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 21:29:49 -0700
From: Noble
Organization: tiac.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5aGold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: thughes@crosslink.net
Subject: Re: " The Rules"
References: <320D6058.1C11@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

May I suggest slight adjustment to rule 6...how's this
6. If it appears that the female is wrong, this is only the exception
that proves the rule.. which is THE FEMALE IS NEVER WRONG.

that's how it goes at my house, at least.
Patricia


Thomas Hughes wrote:
6. If the female is wrong, it is due to a misunderstanding, which was a
direct result of something the male did or said wrong.



--------------5F666BB722DB--



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 21:35:47 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: " The Rules"]
Message-ID: <320C11A3.243@tiac.net
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------13F449525E1"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------13F449525E1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

sent this one to him by mistake too.

--------------13F449525E1
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <320C10C5.5980@tiac.net
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 21:32:05 -0700
From: Noble
Organization: tiac.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5aGold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: thughes@crosslink.net
Subject: Re: " The Rules"
References: <320D6058.1C11@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

P.M.S. stands for Putting up with Men's Shit....I read it in a redneck
bar in Idaho...where everyone was armed..so it must be true.
and the female bartendress giggled when I pointed to it on the wall.
Patricia

Thomas Hughes wrote:
14. If the female has P.M.S., all the rules are null and void.


--------------13F449525E1--



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:41:36 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Recent add
Message-ID: <320D6480.5E70@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

FOR SALE:

Complete set of encyclopedias, excellent condition.
No longer needed........f'n husband knows everything.

Patricia did you run that add?

NOT!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:01:41 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: hey
Message-ID: <320C17B5.233E@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

just put these figures together for my women and business page..
GOOD NEWS:

FACTS OF THE MATTER: Women owned businesses now employ 15.5
million people which is more people than Fortune 500 companies
employ
worldwide. 13.7 million American women earn over $25,000 per year.
Women
are starting new businesses twice as fast as men at a rate of over
300,000
new companies a year. 34% of online users are women. 46 million
women
have access to a computer compared to 34 million men between the
ages of
18-34 or 14 million youths under 18. The Small Business
Administration
predicts that 40% of small businesses will be women-owned by the
year 2000.

yippeee
http://www.mainartery.com/WOMAN
http://www.mainartery.com/WOMAN/wombiz.html

Patricia


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:03:54 -0700
From: Noble
To: thughes@crosslink.net
CC: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent add
Message-ID: <320C183A.164C@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

nope...no husband...if had one like that would sell him and keep
encyclopedias...they will be historic relics someday..when everything is
on CD.
Patricia

Thomas Hughes wrote:

FOR SALE:

Complete set of encyclopedias, excellent condition.
No longer needed........f'n husband knows everything.

Patricia did you run that add?

NOT!

Spirit Wind

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 01:15:14 -0400
From: Lookgood@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Recent add
Message-ID: <960810011514_453097642@emout10.mail.aol.com

nope...no husband...if had one like that would sell him and keep
encyclopedias...they will be historic relics someday..when everything is
on CD.
Patricia

Already on CD called"INFOPEDIA 2.0 by Softkey 29 volume encyclopedia
Webster's Dictionary, Wold Atlas, Almanc,English usage Biographical Dictioary
and more, all on one CD (I don't sell them or work for the company). The
price was great! I got a great deal for $29 but they may retail for more.Also
includes Video motion and sound clips of The Beatles, Hendrix, and others.
Includes Thesarus and book of famous quotations.

Awizbrain

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:15:25 -0700
From: Thomas Hughes
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Sexist Stone Age
Message-ID: <320EE81D.7695@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura wrote: Spirit Wind, what kind of sexist stone age stuff is this?

Stone age? Quite a leap back in time eh? How about a hundred years
ago, how about 6000 years of recorded history, all but the last one
hundred years. Men have been bringing home the food for millenieums, and
women have raised and nurtured children. Not exactly big news.

Women:milk cows

Your sexist words, not mine, don't put your words in my mouth, and then
call me sexist. Your the one equating women with cows, how crude.

men: heroic hunters? Gimmee a bah-reak!

To work hard to provide food for your family is a heroic act to me. By
the way, didn't you notice I said "are the fathers ANY LESS HEROIC".
Thatmeans the women were at least as heroic as the men. Sounds like
equality to me.

Life-support system for a pair of tits!

Again, your description of women not mine. I'm glad to know they come in
pairs. How descriptive. A woman's' bonding with an infant is one of the
closest, most intimate acts on earth. As I said, both parents raising
children are heroic.

often have to be heroic without any man's help

As a man who was a single parent for several years, I know what it's
like to have to raise a children alone when the other spouse is too self
centered to even take a minimal interest in the children, but that
doesn't give me the right to stereotype the entire female gender as
losers. Women can't stoop to the same sexist stereotyping as men do or
the gender is not superior at all, just the same old song, different
verse.

Just because a mother might have several
husbands doesn't mean they can't be discrete about it.

I would certainly hope so. If not, the children are bound to be dealing
with things far beyond their years. I would trust that all here would
want the children to have a loving nurturing home, regardless of the
marital arrangements. We are in agreement on that point.

It's certainly a pleasure to dialogue with such articulate and
passionate people. We may rattle each other a little but at least we're
never bored!

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:45:20 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Monogamy
Message-ID: <320EEF20.7B4F@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dee Ann Wrote:
Actually, "morality" is changing. I know a lot of people who feel
that in 10 years or so everyone will wonder what the fuss was about
over same sex marriages, and they'll be perfectly legal.

Actually, people have said that for the last twenty years. Some
principles are universal and can never change due to their intrinsic
truth. Thou shalt not murder will always apply. Thou shalt not steal,
if it's MY stuff, it definitely applys.Thou shalt not have any other
gods before me, etc. If God made the universe, I suppose it's not
unreasonable that God makes the rules. If you want to stay up pondering
some heavy thoughts, try Romans 1:18 to 32. Put same sex marriage into
context there, and you'll be doing something.

Non-Christians may not follow the 10 commandments. Most of them are
decent in and of themselves, but (this is not meant to be
Christian-bashing)

Actually, the ten commandments are Jewish, and are not Christian per se,
although most Christians do agree with them and try to practice them.
The occasional slip, or falling short is not put in the same category as
deliberate rebellion against the principles contained therein.
Dee Ann, I know your not bashing anyone, and it isn't necessary to
state that. You have always been very respectful to everyone regardless
of their religious perspective. That's one of the reasons I enjoy your
posts so much.

There is no deception. There is no
hiding.

There is no way a relationship can work without honesty, I respect you
for that.

Sexual predators. Please don't equate
relationships with more than two
people with dishonesty and cheating.

A sexual predator is someone who uses others in a selfish way. An
abusive person. Love is the answer, love, respect, honesty, and true
intimacy.
Let's not equate it. My honest opinion, from personal observation is
that
it is the exception, where there is honesty, and not the rule.

"Let the ideas clash, but not the hearts."

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 23:19:02 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: The Goddess Ruled the "Sexist Stone Age".
Message-Id: <199681122240141@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I didn't mean the prehistoric stone age, when the Goddess was the only God,
and Matriarchy was the only social order, no, I was referring to the modern
stone age, when men thought with their stones, and not with their brains.
:) (Hopefully, a thing of the past).

Spirit Wind wrote:
Men have been bringing home the food for millenieums, and
women have raised and nurtured children. Not exactly big news.

For one thing, everybody knows that women are providers and men are often
nurturers too, and 'twas ever thus, no matter what the Bible says, which
was my point. I get the sneaking suspicion that you are determined to
misunderstand me. I'm trying to help you, dear fellow, don't fight it so.
If my pungent terms shock you, think of it as the shock that's intended to
startle you out of your hiccups. :) You have the annoying habit of
indulging yourself in some rather quaint thinking, and really should
substitute it for a more wholesome habit, like chewing gum or something. :)

As a man who was a single parent for several years, I know what it's
like to have to raise a children alone when the other spouse is too self
centered to even take a minimal interest in the children

Your remark just proves my point.

SW, you gotta know that most people on this list (and almost everywhere
else)are already as familiar with the Bible as they want to be, and you
can't use it to bolster your assertions here. Do you ever read anything
else? If you are interested in religion, female supremacy, the Bible,
history and stuff like that, try *The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and
Secrets* by Barbara G. Walker (Harper/Collins). Mmm, mm! That's good
readin'!







Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:27:17 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Goddess Ruled the "Sexist Stone Age".
Message-ID: <320DA775.5EC2@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

---or----
GYN-ECOLOGY, the metaethics of feminism...by Mary Daly


lalaura@ix.netcom.com wrote:

I didn't mean the prehistoric stone age, when the Goddess was the only God,
and Matriarchy was the only social order, no, I was referring to the modern
stone age, when men thought with their stones, and not with their brains.
:) (Hopefully, a thing of the past).

Spirit Wind wrote:
Men have been bringing home the food for millenieums, and
women have raised and nurtured children. Not exactly big news.

For one thing, everybody knows that women are providers and men are often
nurturers too, and 'twas ever thus, no matter what the Bible says, which
was my point. I get the sneaking suspicion that you are determined to
misunderstand me. I'm trying to help you, dear fellow, don't fight it so.
If my pungent terms shock you, think of it as the shock that's intended to
startle you out of your hiccups. :) You have the annoying habit of
indulging yourself in some rather quaint thinking, and really should
substitute it for a more wholesome habit, like chewing gum or something. :)

As a man who was a single parent for several years, I know what it's
like to have to raise a children alone when the other spouse is too self
centered to even take a minimal interest in the children

Your remark just proves my point.

SW, you gotta know that most people on this list (and almost everywhere
else)are already as familiar with the Bible as they want to be, and you
can't use it to bolster your assertions here. Do you ever read anything
else? If you are interested in religion, female supremacy, the Bible,
history and stuff like that, try *The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and
Secrets* by Barbara G. Walker (Harper/Collins). Mmm, mm! That's good
readin'!

Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 23:57:41 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Change, it's a comin'! (Re: Monogamy)
Message-Id: <1996811311916334@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Spirit Wind wrote:

Dee Ann Wrote:
Actually, "morality" is changing.

Actually, people have said that for the last twenty years. Some
principles are universal and can never change due to their intrinsic
truth. Thou shalt not murder will always apply.

Dee Ann is right, morality is not engraved in stone, no matter what the
Bible says. Murder, for example, is considered justifiable and even
righteous under certain circumstances, even in the Bible, for example, when
God authorized the slaughter of the Midianites. God himself is a murderer:
the Bible is rife with stories of divinely authorized killings, most
famously, the humiliating public execution of his own son.

People decide what is moral, and people can change their minds. When minds
change, laws and customs soon change to reflect the new thinking. I do
believe that one day soon it will be unthinkable to do things that people
do unthinkingly now. Poisen and plunder the earth recklessly? Not for
very much longer. Make war over shrinking non-renewable fuel sources? Not
for very much longer. Jail otherwise harmless people for recreational
enjoyment of a harmless plant? Not for very much longer. Rob the poor to
fatten the wallets of poiseners and warmongers? Not for very much longer.

People are changing, the laws are changing, customs are changing, and yes,
our ideas about what's right and wrong are changing. Not coincidently,
women are changing...they are fighting what they used to accept: they do it
for themselves, and for their sons and daughters. They are fighting to be
free of idiotic hampering old ideas about what it means to be a good woman,
and are instituting new ideas, new customs, and new laws. This is for the
benefit of all people. Men are changing. They are questioning the old
ideas and are reshaping themselves and their masculine ideal to better suit
themselves to the realities of the shifting social landscape. This is as
it should be.




Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #181
************************************************

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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 180

Today's Topics:
Re: Monogomy (fwd)
Do you like men?
Re: Family and Monogomy
jumping in re Robert & Fiona's hesitancy
Re: Family and Monogomy
Family and MonogAmy !
Re: Family and Monogomy
FemDom/gender reversed dancing
Re: FemDom/gender reversed dancing
Hello
Re: FemDom/gender reversed dancing
Recent (and not so recent) posts
Re: Family and Monogomy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Monogomy (fwd)
Message-Id: <199608061824.LAA03557@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5777

Just realised this post only went to Spirit Wind. Guess it's time for
me to start paying attention to my mail headers.

Thomas Hughes wrote:

Society tends to always move in the direction the majority benefits from.
The propagation of the race, is a very strong biological urge. Society
usually tries to protect the family relationship at all costs, and
anything perceived as threatening that is crushed. However, there are
many examples, like the witch burning in New England, where the majority
will yield to church or state power, even though they don't agree, simply
to go along, as happened in Nazi Germany.

I think that Christians may think they're the majority, but I'm not
sure it's true. It's certainly not true on a worldwide basis. At
least, from reading your post, I assume you're talking from a
Christian perspective. And, well, with the current overpopulation of
our planet, I find I often take exception to the "propogation of the
race" thing. (I assume meaning "human race".)

Today, anything that is considered a threat to marriage is voted down,
i.e., same sex marriages. Morality changes in societies. Maybe that's
why the ten commandments were written on stone, instead of paper so we
couldn't change them? They're not the ten "suggestions" are they?

Actually, "morality" is changing. I know a lot of people who feel
that in 10 years or so everyone will wonder what the fuss was about
over same sex marriages, and they'll be perfectly legal. And, well,
non-Christians may not follow the 10 commandments. Most of them are
decent in and of themselves, but (this is not meant to be
Christian-bashing) I find even few Christians follow them in the
spirit they were meant. "love thy neighbor" seems to be especially
difficult.

Many things are hidden now that will all be revealed someday (what you
whisper in secret shall be shouted from the housetop). As a male who
lived a very self indulgent dishonest life for many years, I can only say
hiding things from your mate can only cause sorrow and pain. It robs you
of that closeness spiritually as well as physically, that you need to
reach the place of peace and ultimate sexual fulfillment.

I think you have the wrong idea about polyamory. I have multiple
partners, including a husband. He knows about my partners. We talk
about my partners. He talks _to_ my partners, at least on the phone.
He knows I care deeply about anyone I bring into my life as a partner
of some sort, but he knows I care very deeply for him and work hard to
not hurt him in the process. There is no deception. There is no
hiding.

You never really "get away" with anything. You always know what you've
done and have to look in the mirror. Sadly, lying to ourselves is a
national pastime. Honesty is so hard to achieve, but we all must strive
to be more real and honest, not just with partners, but more importantly,
with ourselves. How much broken hearted wreckage is strewn across the
landscape of our souls and the souls of our lovers, for the sake of a
momentary thrill. What lengths? Some will go to any length. Healthy?
I doubt it.

Once again, there is nothing "dishonest" about "properly done"
polyamory. I will not attempt to say there is one true way to do it,
but honesty to me is imperative. Honesty is important in all
relationships, but _especially_ in polyamory. Handling more than a 1
on 1 relationship can get tricky. I know some people who are great at
it, all of their partners feel comfortable. And I know some who are
horrible at it. It comes down to selfishness, generally. Wanting to
do just what _you_ want to do without considering other's feelings.
Always consider the other partners' feelings and things will be fine.

Each person must walk their own path. There are millions of men and
many more millions of women who are totally monogamous and loyal to one
person. They are seldom mentioned, but they're there. After years of
being a lair and a cheat, I decided that was not the kind of man I wanted
to be. I wanted a deeper relationship with my wife, and more
importantly, a more honest relationship with myself. With all sincerity,
I have never been happier than I am right now. I only wish I would have
learned what far more women know than men, that there are great benefits
to being loyal and committed to one person, and there are very deep
emotions, feelings and spiritual truths to be learned and experienced
from that kind of bonding. All of woman kind are my friends, and deserve
respect and honesty. Being a sexual predator is exciting, but
fulfilling? Not for me, not anymore. I wanted to change, and be a
better man than one who sees women in only one or two self serving
ways. At time it has been a painful journey, but the end result will be
worth it. The human race needs more "humans." Monogamy is awesome, it
works, and I have not been one of it's shining examples, but I'm working
on it.

Being honest with yourself and the people close to you is certainly
something to strive toward, IMO. People who are polyamorous and
open and honest about that with their partners are not sexual
predators. Please don't equate relationships with more than two
people with dishonesty and cheating. It's not for everyone, I
wouldn't recommend everyone have a poly relationship. That doesn't
mean it's not for anyone.

Dee-Ann


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 07:36:07 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Do you like men?
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960806113607.00697fd4@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: XXXXX@acs.tamu.edu (Unverified)
To: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
From: XXXXX@acs.tamu.edu (name edited out by me)
Subject: Do you like men?

Hello,

I saw a note where you say you like to dominate men?
What does that mean? Do you like and respect men?
Do men like you? Do you have some desire to be
unkind to men? Tell me how you treat men and
why you enjoy it.

I get mail like this all the time and usually just delete it because I'm
busy, and I figure this joker could just go read a book or something. How
do you handle unsolicited "Mommy, tell me the story of your life..." mail?
I strongly suspect this is some person's attempt to get some hot juicy stuff.
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 07:36:10 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Family and Monogomy
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960806113610.0069336c@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Spirit wind wrote:

Obviously mothers with their
built in milk supply are closest to the offspring. But are the fathers
who killed game and defended the family against attackers any less
heroic?

Spirit Wind, what kind of sexist stone age stuff is this? Women:milk cows
and men: heroic hunters? Gimmee a bah-reak! My motherhood consists of more
than serving as a life-support system for a pair of tits! FYI, women are
heroic too, especially for their children, and often have to be heroic
without any man's help, often even in the face of opposition from men. If
*all* men _would_ defend their wives and children instead of attacking them,
SURE, that would be great.

Hunting...any woman, man or child with a steady hand and keen eye can do the
hunting anymore.

Get real! The world is filled with kids running in wolf packs because
they were neglected or used by adults. Of course they accept it, they
have almost no choice in the matter. Love is love, no matter where it
comes from, but I think kids are subject to far too much sexual
stimulation at far too young an age. On TV and in music, as well as by
predatory people and even some parents. Kids should be climbing trees
and other childhood pastimes and not bombarded constantly with sexual
themes and overtones.

Maybe, but a poly household would not automatically be a sexually
overstimulating environment. Just because a mother might have several
husbands doesn't mean they can't be discrete about it. I think it's *just
possible* that kids would be raised better if they had more adults around
who felt responsible for them.



Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 02:34:45 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: jumping in re Robert & Fiona's hesitancy
Message-Id: <199608070227.CAA05507@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi all,

http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine

We are still snowed under with tourists. (sunned under
doesn't sound right!).

In any spare moments I have had, I have been working on our web
site. It's needs a few finishing touches, but it's getting
there.

If anyone cares to take a look and suggest improvements I would
be pleased to hear from you. Email me direct as we don't want
to clutter the list with criticism (or compliments). I have only
seen it in Netscape so don't know what the other browsers will
do to it.

Sorry to have been a stranger, promise to try and answer at
least Robert and Fiona's post properly soon. "The Stevenson's
will jump in here" I think they said. Off the cuff I would say
get out and meet the folks. In your neck of the woods the best
bet might be a trip down to London for the weekend. Give Tim
Woodward at Skin Two a ring and ask him to recommend somewhere.
(Probably not one of the ultra fashion set places.) Meet some
of the real warm and mature SM folks. That's what we did ten
years ago, and haven't looked back since. :-)

He seemed a nice chap (Tim Woodward), total stranger rings him
and he was full of warm advice.

At this rate I think you could say one Stevenson is crawling
in slowly.

Warmest regards,
David.
________________________________________________
..........Christine & David Stevenson...........<<br />....Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.....<<br />........Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.........<<br />Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.<<br />Email enquiries to:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt <<br /> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 20:51:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: rrlelnd@escape.ca (David Land)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Family and Monogomy
Message-Id: <199608070151.UAA00322@wpg-01.escape.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Where I have observed this in Canada, families which depend on
hunting/fishing/gathering are attuned to to the seasons. When it is time,
they move to remote encampments - women, men and children. There is work
for everyone to do. Generally it is men who set nets and use rifles to
shoot cariboo etc. Game meat is buried in the moss by women. (Perhaps
because they can remember better than men where to dig it up when needed.)
Fish fillets are smoked by women.
Berries are gathered by women, girls, and boys under 12. An extended family
of 8 to 12 people share a canvas tent in the bush. The season is short.
Before freeze-up a boat has to take all the gains back to the village. Back
in the village, in the cold weather months, there is a share for all members
of the community. Year in and year out, fat years and lean, this enterprise
has provided for our aboriginal people.

Mono or any other gamy has little to do with it. But when the bushes are
heavy with saskatoon berries it would be crime not to gather them.
Everybody older than 3 can contribute - everybody does what they can.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 22:00:53 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Family and MonogAmy !
Message-ID: <32097406.67B@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Any reason why women can't teach strength an' bravery? I've known any
number of women who were just as brave as men, in the same kind of ways.

Once again, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
One of the challenging things about this list, is that every time you
make a statement that's positive about a gender or role, there could be
implied negatives, which usually I'm not perceptive enough to think of
before hand. Of course women teach all those virtues, and more. In
general, men are more assertive than women, and women are more nurturing
than men, that's all. Good fathers do contribute much, and have a role
to play. That takes nothing away from women. To me, working together
in a complimentary way, rather than a competitive way is the ideal.

Seeking out a man for his good genetic potential and 'using'
him as not a father for her child, but as good breeding stock.

How would everyone feel if I said," I'm gonna find a lady who looks like
she has good genes and use her to make a child, since she looks like
good breeding stock"? Not really comftorable with that, pretty
mercenary.

I think there's a
very big difference between a child being raised in, and accepting an
'alternative' family environment, and a child being neglected and abused.

So do I. Each home is different, and I'm sure there are good and bad
examples or each. There is very little statistical data on what we are
discussing, so we are all just expressing opinions. Probably most
molesters are male, married, and about as evil as you can get. But I
wouldn't use that as an argument against marriage, to any gender.
I really liked your last statement "so long as they provide a loving,
nurturing environment for the kids." That about sums it up!

Sorting through some weighty stuff,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 00:02:25 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Family and Monogomy
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960807040225.00683208@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Where I have observed this in Canada, families which depend on
hunting/fishing/gathering are attuned to to the seasons. When it is time,
they move to remote encampments - women, men and children. There is work
for everyone to do. Generally it is men who set nets and use rifles to
shoot cariboo etc.

Speaking of Canada, read pioneer Susanna Moodie's "Roughing it in the Bush",
an autobiographical account of her very unromantic years of trying to make a
living in the Canadian frontier. I could find nothing in her account that
women *didn't* do, and quite ably, in those days.

Here is her description of a Native woman's hunting skill:

" We had scarcely exchanged a few words when the old squaw, placing
her hand against her ear, exclaimed, "Whist! Whist!"
"What is it?" cried Emilia and I, starting to our feet. "Is there
any danger?"
"A deer...a deer... in the bush!" she whispered, seizing a rifle
that stood in the corner. "I hear sticks crack... a great way off. Stay here!"
It must have been a great way off, for though Emilia and I listened
at the open door, an advantage wihich the squaw did not enjoy, we could not
hear the least sound: all seemed still as death. The squaw whistled to the
old hound, and went out.
"Did you hear anything, Susan?"
She smiled, and nodded.
"Listen: the dog has found the track."
The next moment the discharge of the rifle, and the deep baying of
the dog, woke the sleeping echoes of the woods: and Susan started off to
help bring in the game that had been shot. "

:)
Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:31:09 +0200
From: silverheart
To: femsuprem@renaissoft.com
Subject: FemDom/gender reversed dancing
Message-ID:

Does anyone have any experiences with female domination
dancing or gender reversed dancing, that is, dancing where
the female has the role as leader?

All kinds of structured dancing that one can learn in a dance
school seem to stress the role of the male as leader,
initiator, active, dominator etc. ad nauseam -- are there any
exceptions to this? Is there any dance school that organize
and teach gender reversed dancing?

silverheart

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:57:40 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com
To: femsuprem@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: FemDom/gender reversed dancing
Message-Id: <1996873131411478@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Does anyone have any experiences with female domination
dancing or gender reversed dancing, that is, dancing where
the female has the role as leader?

Wow! This is a subject dear to my heart! I agree that the male dominance
in "traditioal" dances is disgusting, which is why I prefer freestyle. I
have invented my own dances where the sexes are apparently equal, or where
I took the lead. That's what has got to happen: we need new dances, or to
dance the old dances a new way.



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:01:17 -0400
From: dh374@freenet.carleton.ca (Ghislain deBlois)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Hello
Message-Id: <199608072301.TAA21874@freenet2.carleton.ca

Hello, I'm new to this list and am very excited about it. Although
I am male I have just recently discovered or I should say admitted
to myself that I believe in the superiority of Women. I can't
explain it but I get feeling of liberation of relief when I view
spiritual beliefs as being of that of a matriarchal Goddess rather
than the traditional patriarchal one. It's a feeling inside that
I've suppressed for so long: a feeling that men are hopelessly
helpless without women, and that men should serve them. I believe
that a matriarchal Goddess-worshipping society would be beneficial
to both Women AND men. I feel an inner peace when I imagine the
world being governed by Women while their men serve them.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Does anyone know of any organizations of female supremacy in
Ottawa (or in Canada for that matter)?
2. I have been seeing this wonderful Woman for a while now. How
do I tell Her about my personal beliefs? I want to tell Her but
I just don't know how (I've been hinting that I believe in wWomens
rights and asked her what She thought about men changing THEIR
last names to their wives when they get married)

regards
G de Blois
.
the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Syed - Khalid
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: syedk@shell.portal.com ( Khalid)
Subject: Re: FemDom/gender reversed dancing
Message-Id: <199608072314.QAA11750@jobe.shell.portal.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1318

iAre there any videos, movies or books that illustrate "reverse" dancing?


Does anyone have any experiences with female domination
dancing or gender reversed dancing, that is, dancing where
the female has the role as leader?

Wow! This is a subject dear to my heart! I agree that the male dominance
in "traditioal" dances is disgusting, which is why I prefer freestyle. I
have invented my own dances where the sexes are apparently equal, or where
I took the lead. That's what has got to happen: we need new dances, or to
dance the old dances a new way.



Laura Goodwin

Siddartha could wait, think and fast. I can do
all that plus sing, dance, act and write. Good
thing I know how to fast!

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:00:40 -0700
From: newmoon@leonardo.net (Phoenix)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Recent (and not so recent) posts
Message-Id: <199608080100.SAA01259@leonardo.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Coming briefly out of lurk-mode... Out of town a lot lately, it's taken DAYS
to catch up on my list reading. Much of what I would have replied to was
elegantly and thoughtfully replied to by others, so I'm just tossing in a
few random comments...

In response to the various threads around female body-type and eating
disorders-- IMHO culture is something that is created by both men and women.
Women, as moms, have a big hand in passing culture along to the next
generation. We currently live in a culture that is anti-female. Both men AND
women are responsible for maintaining this. (For a supreme example of women
maintaining anti-female culture think of the Sudan, where female family
members facilitate the genital mutilation of little girls.) Women have more
obvious reasons to try to change anti-female culture but I believe that both
men and women ultimately benefit from such changes. The saying goes that
"feminism equals humanism," and I tend to agree.

Eating disorders are a symptom, an acting out of the underlying message of
our culture that women are not good enough. Women's worth has increasingly
been linked/limited to their physical appearance, and this physical
appearance has become more and more impossible. Let me tell you an
enlightening story I came across on television. (Please bear with me, I
don't remember names, air dates, etc. but I assure you the story is true.)
There was a contest a year or two ago to find the "most beautiful woman in
Las Vegas." The woman chosen was an entertainer. It turns out that she had
begun life as an ordinary-looking man. After years of surgery (molars
pulled, ribs removed, breast implants, etc.) and heavy makeup, this man had
apparently approached the "ideal" female appearance. (The entertainer lost
his/her job after his original gender became public, and had to sue to be
reinstated.) Ironically, the same type of surgeries and cosmetics are
necessary for 99.9% of WOMEN to achieve this look!

This kind of unreal fantasy is devastating to women, and crippling to men.
Naomi Wolfe, in her book _Fire with Fire_ (sorry, don't have it anymore, so
no page or edition), talks about college-age men she's interviewed who
cannot have an orgasm with an ordinary woman unless they close their eyes
and pretend she is a Playboy-centerfold type.

Why not acknowledge and appreciate the natural beauty of youth and health,
and go on to appreciate the beauty of the divine that shines somewhere
within all beings? (With some people you have to dig a lot deeper, of
course. ;} ) A lot of time gets spent on problems, and not enough on
solutions. I say: figure out and name what's wrong; fight like hell against
it; and remember to affirm what's already right and good. (Homework
assignment, look into a mirror and tell yourself out loud that you are
beautiful!)

A side note: I remember reading somewhere that archaeological evidence
suggests that the size difference between the sexes used to be a lot less.
Does anyone have any info on this? It seems to be an interesting fact, if
true. Perhaps millenia of patriarchy has selectively bred for larger men and
smaller women.

**********

And now for something completely different... in the various discussions of
car-buying tactics I didn't see anyone mention that no-hassle, no-haggle,
dealerships have begun advertising in the U.S., apparently in response to
the perceived desires of the female car-buying market. Learning to haggle is
a good skill for women, but not having to do it to buy a car is also a good
thing!

*********

back into lurk-mode...

Bright Blessings,
Lady Phoenix



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:39:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Family and Monogomy
Message-Id: <199608082239.PAA00716@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1949

Laura Goodwin wrote:

Maybe, but a poly household would not automatically be a sexually
overstimulating environment. Just because a mother might have several
husbands doesn't mean they can't be discrete about it. I think it's *just
possible* that kids would be raised better if they had more adults around
who felt responsible for them.

Goes back to the idea of "It takes a whole village to raise a child."
A poly family would certainly have more folks to look after and
provide examples for a child (and, I agree that it wouldn't be a
sexually overstimulating environment, it's not like all of the adults
would be necking in the living room while the kids were around).
Also, though, one of the things that causes the "wolf packs" Spirit
Wind mentioned is that no one feels responsible for anything outside
for their own little family. I'd actually argue that there are a
dangerous number of folks who even reject that responsibility.

That's why volunteer or even pay stuff involving kids (day camps,
self-esteem workshops, nature outings, etc.) can be so important.
Show kids what's out there, and what they _can_ be. If all they see
is a bunch of people who won't take responsibility for themselves,
that's all they'll expect to be.

Back to poly families...there's nothing wrong with having more than
one woman or man around in the family to serve as an example. It
helps if that person is a good example, of course. :) But being a
"good example" has nothing to do with your internal sexuality if
that's not something you constantly display in front of the kids.
It's got more to do with your ability to deal with life and the people
in it.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #180
************************************************

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Subject: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #179
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 179

Today's Topics:
Re: uses for men
Re: uses for men
Re: help
Re: help
news special
Family and Monogomy
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #175
Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #175
Their glad to be Women !
Re: Their glad to be Women !
Re: uses for men
Re: uses for men
Re: Family and Monogomy (That's 'Monogamy' isn't it?)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:31:48 +0000
From: 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID: <79CBC3377AE@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk

Re: Below.

I don't go to BDSM clubs, and apart from one x-girlfried who I asked too tie
me up and others whose feet I have massaged and kissed, I have never even
asked a woman to dominate me. Certainly not a stranger.

It is not appropriate to go into details, but I had some unfortunate
childhood experiences, including severely alcoholic parents and child sexual
abuse(some of the offenders, by the way, are female). Amongst other things,
this damaged my self confidence, which I have been working on along with all
the other shit in therapy. By their own admission, many women treat shy,
smallish, underconfident men with contempt. This is part of the price I
have had to pay.

When I started therapy, I asked to be cured of my kinky sexual fantasies,
which I was ashamed of. I was told that this is unrealistic, that my
fantasies are quite mild by comparison, and to be less hard on myself for
having them. Thus, I decided to check out this list, and then later to send
what I thought were better uses for men. Perhaps I should not have done so.
If I have offended anyone, I regret it. I wish you all well, but mainly for
my own emotional protection, I think it is best if I unsubscibe. Bye.

Dee Ann wrote:


I think this is a far too simplistic statement. I prefer men who
aren't "bonehead macho" but also aren't "doormats." Personally, I
don't respect a man who competes for Mr. Universe any more than any
other man, and in fact find that kind of overpumped physique way
beyond my tastes. If anything, I may discriminate against a man built
like that assuming he's over-vain. Not fair, I know.

To me, a man with a sense of himself, who cares about others, who
isn't driven by ego or pride, and at least cares about his appearance
is the way to go. Guys I run into who seem to be looking to be owned
by a woman only so they never have to think for themselves are totally
unattractive, as are guys who care so little about themselves that
they will submit to any woman who will take them (without bothering to
make sure she's not an axe-murderer first). However, guys who feel
that they have to always push and bait a woman to get her to do
"horrible things" to him are also unattractive. Needless to say,
guys who treat women like we're all idiots and should stay in the
kitchen are the least attractive of all. I don't care what they look
like, I see no need to put up with that kind of attitude.

(The following is all, of course, IMO. Not speaking for all women,
just for myself.)

So, what am I trying to say? Overly aggressive ("Dominate me bitch")
is unattractive. Moderately aggressive ("Hi, I know you don't know
me, but I wanted to tell you I really like your web page") is
acceptable. Total passivity ("I'll do anything any woman wants") is
unattractive.

Overly macho ("I can spit tobacco 300 yards") is unattractive.
Moderatly macho ("I'll be happy to change your tire") is just peachy
as long as it's not pushy and assuming that I don't know what I'm
doing. Feminine, which is I guess what I'd call "lack of macho" ("I
know I'm a guy, but I'm happiest in a dress and with painted
toenails") is also just peachy.

As far as "built" goes...I don't go for overly pumped up guys. I find
it kind of gross. I also don't really go for being able to see
someone's ribs. A little muscle tone can be nice. Guys who go to
BDSM events expecting women to all be wearing PVC and latex, but who
didn't bother to wear more than a pair of jeans and a T-shirt baffle
me.

Or, put differently, male aggression and body-building cause some women
to
respect some men.

I will agree with the "some women" part. "Some men" also respect male
aggression and body-building. I wouldn't say, though, that male
aggression equates with body-building. I'm sure not all body-builders
are aggressive people. And, remember, "aggression" isn't necessarily
a bad thing. Overly aggressive is, IMO, a bad thing. Aggression can
simply mean the willingness to start a conversation with someone.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 23:41:28 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-Id: <199608052140.XAA04493@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:31:48 +0000, 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK wrote:

the other shit in therapy. By their own admission, many women treat shy,
smallish, underconfident men with contempt. This is part of the price I

To me this seems to be the same type of a reaction, that assertive and
confident women provoke in many men. I.e. men refer to them in derogatory
terms and slander them in general (e.g. what a b*tch etc.) simply because
they deviate from the norm "society" expects from them, and in my opinion
both behaviors are equally dispicable.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-Id: <199608052334.QAA02811@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1092

Noble wrote:

gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

I think your "friend" has another agenda, the page is fine. The text
is readable even though you have a background. It's not overloaded
with pictures. The colors are tasteful. And I like your mailbox
icon. :)

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 19:37:12 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: help
Message-ID: <3206AFD8.7E74@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

my friend is history...and thanks for taking the time to go look and
write back....I have recovered from momentary bout with fragility and
compass is pointing true north again...and thank you again...
many of you are beginning to feel like friends....
Patricia

Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

Noble wrote:

gang..I need some honesty from you all. I just got rather badly trashed
by someone I had been becoming friends with I thought. he now informs
me rather stingly .. that my web work and pages are amateurish and in no
way up to competing professionally on the web. I have spent a lot of
time and money trying to get them polished...I really would appreciate
some unbiased truth about them. If you could find the time to go look
at them and PLEASEPLEASE ...BE HONEST...if I am fooling myself I
really don't want to spend one more second of my life doing that.

I think your "friend" has another agenda, the page is fine. The text
is readable even though you have a background. It's not overloaded
with pictures. The colors are tasteful. And I like your mailbox
icon. :)

Dee-Ann

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 18:29:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: news special
Message-Id: <199608060129.SAA02892@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 444

NBC Nightly News (at about 6pm) is doing a series on the "Most
Inspiring Women in America." It's going to last all week, one woman
each weekday. Check it out.

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 22:00:21 -0700
From: Spirit Wind
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com
Subject: Family and Monogomy
Message-ID: <3206D165.4F1A@crosslink.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Laura Goodwin Wrote:

Families are still here because of _mothers_. There are *traditions*, and ~traditions~...it's also traditional in every culture since time began for women to raise the children whether there was a dependable father in the picture or not. In every mammalian species, the females raise the offspring, with or without the aid of a male mate. That's a family! If natural law is Divine Law, then maternal dominance is divinely ordained.

As usual, you make some excellent points. Obviously mothers with their
built in milk supply are closest to the offspring. But are the fathers
who killed game and defended the family against attackers any less
heroic?I agree mothers are the primary force in a young child's life,
but dads teach children to be brave and strong and face the world
unafraid. They can encourage the children into leaving the nest and
venturing forth
into the world with a sense of strength and power to face whatever
challenges life throws at them. Mothers tend to reveal the softer
virtues, men the sterner virtues, but both are necessary for children to
learn. Maternal dominance may well be divinely ordained, I happen to
like the idea myself!

Mating is not what makes a family...any beast can procreate. Being there and caring, fostering the offspring, that's what makes a family. If a man is there and actively cares, he's a *father*. Otherwise he's just______.

Again, you make a lot of sense. We have too much animalistic sex in
this world without any "active caring." People act like uncaring
animals and use others too much. Your right. A true father is as you
say. If he is just being used as a ____ as you say, she is just as bad
as him in my opinion. They are both losers and I pity the child. She
will learn to just use people just like mommy and daddy do. That's sad.

If he's a father and a true husband, sure! But if he's a bozo except in bed he should stay the hell out of a woman's family decisions.

Can't disagree with you there, but if he's such a bozo, what is she
doing letting him do anything with her children? If their married, she
should get counseling and change things for her kids sake. Not just get
her jollies and use him in the bedroom and ignore the other problems.
It's a brave new world, she shouldn't just wait for it like it's a bus
(where have I heard that before).lol A wife's decision is almost always
better than a husbands right?! In our home it is!

Women should rule their own households. Mothers should have final say in
all family decisions. Men should be jolly good sports or get lost

That's the way it is around here! And I LOVE IT! Can't fault you on
this one, but I didn't like the "get lost" part. Sensitive little guy
aren't I! Spouses should respectfully talk things over with each other,
being careful to listen to each others point of view, and then the wife
should
DO WHATEVER SHE THINKS BEST! (She is the EQUAL among equals!)

As for confusing children...don't underestimate children. They can
certainly accept any arrangement they are raised up in

Get real! The world is filled with kids running in wolf packs because
they were neglected or used by adults. Of course they accept it, they
have almost no choice in the matter. Love is love, no matter where it
comes from, but I think kids are subject to far too much sexual
stimulation at far too young an age. On TV and in music, as well as by
predatory people and even some parents. Kids should be climbing trees
and other childhood pastimes and not bombarded constantly with sexual
themes and overtones. Thousands of children are robbed of their
childhood by people, mostly men, who use and abuse them. Some of these
concepts are very close to the line of impropriety. When in doubt,
safeguard them and let them be kids.
Please err, if you will on the side of normalicy(radical word eh!),
giving them as protected an upbringing as possible until they are of a
proper age. As one who was viciously molested at the age of ten, I
guess I feel strongly about it for personal reasons.

It's always nice to think out loud with the true believers!

Peace,

Spirit Wind

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:32:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #175
Message-Id: <199608060232.TAA02935@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 530

Sharchi73@aol.com wrote:

Please take me off this list. Sorry I don't know the proper address to send
this request.

To leave this mailing list, write to

femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

unsubscribe

and nothing in the body.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:33:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 #175
Message-Id: <199608060233.TAA02944@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 578

Sharchi73@aol.com wrote:

Please take me off this list. Sorry I don't know the proper address to send
this request.

Oops, I see you're on the digest...instead, you need to do this...

Write to

femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com

with the subject

unsubscribe

and nothing in the body.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 21:32:20 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Their glad to be Women !
Message-ID: <3206AEB4.2157@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I felt some humor might brighten everyone's
day. This poem is meant in jest, any resemblence to
person's ( or genders ) living or dead is purely
coincedental....... :-) Roland


I'm glad I'm a woman, yes I am, yes I am
I don't live off of Budweiser, beer nuts and Spam
I don't brag to my buddies about my erections
I won't drive to Hell before I ask for directions
I don't get wasted at parties and act like a clown
and I know how to put the damned toilet seat down!

I won't grab your hooters, I won't pinch your butt
my belt buckle's not hidden beneath my beer gut
and I don't go around "readjusting" my crotch
or yell like Tarzan when my head-board gets a notch
I don't belch in public, I don't scratch my behind
I'm a woman you see -- I'm just not that kind!

I'm glad I'm a woman, I'm so glad I could sing
I don't have body hair like shag carpeting
It doesn't grow from my ears or cover my back
When I lean over you can't see 3 inches of crack
And what's on my head doesn't leave with my comb
I'll never buy a toupee to cover my dome
Or have a few hairs pulled from over the side
I'm a woman, you know -- I've got far too much pride!

And I honestly think its a privilege for me
to be built as I am, and squat when I pee
They brag about standing, I think it's so lame
Especially when they all have such terrible aim
Men take so much pride in having their "balls"
any woman can grab'em, he'll come when she calls!

Yes, I'm glad I'm a woman, a woman you see
you can forget all about that old penis envy
I don't long for male bonding, I don't cruise for chicks
join the Hair Club For Men, or think with my dick
I'm a woman by chance and I'm thankful it's true
I'm so glad I'm a woman and not a man like you!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 22:37:35 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Their glad to be Women !
Message-ID: <3206DA1F.59DE@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

hug and pats on the head....good boy Roland...
Patricia

Roland Foy wrote:

I felt some humor might brighten everyone's
day. This poem is meant in jest, any resemblence to
person's ( or genders ) living or dead is purely
coincedental....... :-) Roland

I'm glad I'm a woman, yes I am, yes I am
I don't live off of Budweiser, beer nuts and Spam
I don't brag to my buddies about my erections
I won't drive to Hell before I ask for directions
I don't get wasted at parties and act like a clown
and I know how to put the damned toilet seat down!

I won't grab your hooters, I won't pinch your butt
my belt buckle's not hidden beneath my beer gut
and I don't go around "readjusting" my crotch
or yell like Tarzan when my head-board gets a notch
I don't belch in public, I don't scratch my behind
I'm a woman you see -- I'm just not that kind!

I'm glad I'm a woman, I'm so glad I could sing
I don't have body hair like shag carpeting
It doesn't grow from my ears or cover my back
When I lean over you can't see 3 inches of crack
And what's on my head doesn't leave with my comb
I'll never buy a toupee to cover my dome
Or have a few hairs pulled from over the side
I'm a woman, you know -- I've got far too much pride!

And I honestly think its a privilege for me
to be built as I am, and squat when I pee
They brag about standing, I think it's so lame
Especially when they all have such terrible aim
Men take so much pride in having their "balls"
any woman can grab'em, he'll come when she calls!

Yes, I'm glad I'm a woman, a woman you see
you can forget all about that old penis envy
I don't long for male bonding, I don't cruise for chicks
join the Hair Club For Men, or think with my dick
I'm a woman by chance and I'm thankful it's true
I'm so glad I'm a woman and not a man like you!

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 22:42:52 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID:

FEWell, no actually.... There is something in the Jersey water. All the
FEgood men are in Florida and Sweden :^)

You know, I have always suspected Jersey water, and
have said that, myself, many times!
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:57:37 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: uses for men
Message-ID:

In message <79CBC3377AE@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk, 9521295@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK
writes

When I started therapy, I asked to be cured of my kinky sexual fantasies,
which I was ashamed of. I was told that this is unrealistic, that my
fantasies are quite mild by comparison, and to be less hard on myself for
having them. Thus, I decided to check out this list, and then later to send
what I thought were better uses for men. Perhaps I should not have done so.
If I have offended anyone, I regret it. I wish you all well, but mainly for
my own emotional protection, I think it is best if I unsubscibe. Bye.

If you are still reading, we are sure there will be plenty of list
members saying 'unsubscribe - no need'. This is a friendly newsgroup
(usually) and we certainly don't think there has been anything 'wrong''
with your contributions. People will write in disagreeing, amplifying
but that is all part of debate.

The mere fact that you are worried about offending anyone shows you are
considerate.

If you will, give it more time, lurk quietly if need be. If there have
been hard times in the past, simply being with other considerate and
sympathetic people can be good (and sometimes in our own opinion time
spent with real people offering up their own problems and views
sometimes makes more sense than time spent with professional therapists
whose own worlds are closed to you (that said the advice you quoted
seemed perfectly sensible)).

--
fiona and robert forsythe

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 05:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (FemSupremacy)
Subject: Re: Family and Monogomy (That's 'Monogamy' isn't it?)
Message-Id: <199608061240.FAA17487@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Spirit Wind wrote:
are the fathers who killed game and defended the family against
attackers any less heroic?

In one sense I'd agree - they're heroic, yes, an' should receive some
honor as such. But - it's -easier- to go out and risk one's life being
a hero (*imo*) than it is to struggle on day to day in the face of adver-
sity.

I agree mothers are the primary force in a young child's life,
but dads teach children to be brave and strong and face the world
unafraid. They can encourage the children into leaving the nest and
venturing forth into the world with a sense of strength and power to
face whatever challenges life throws at them.

Any reason why women can't teach strength an' bravery? I've known any
number of women who were just as brave as men, in the same kind of ways.
Then again, courage is, again imo, on the decline in 'civilized' human
kind.

Again, you make a lot of sense. We have too much animalistic sex in
this world without any "active caring." People act like uncaring
animals and use others too much. Your right. A true father is as you
say. If he is just being used as a ____ as you say, she is just as bad
as him in my opinion. They are both losers and I pity the child. She
will learn to just use people just like mommy and daddy do. That's sad.

Here I'll mostly agree with you - save for that I don't see a huge problem
with a woman seeking out a man for his good genetic potential and 'using'
him as not a father for her child, but as good breeding stock.

As for confusing children...don't underestimate children. They can
certainly accept any arrangement they are raised up in

Get real! The world is filled with kids running in wolf packs because
they were neglected or used by adults. Of course they accept it, they
have almost no choice in the matter. Love is love, no matter where it
comes from, but I think kids are subject to far too much sexual
stimulation at far too young an age.

Wait wait wait a second here! I've known an awful lot of people who've
been sexually abused while children, but -most- of them came from 'normal'
heterosexual quote unquote monogamous marriages - again, quite possibly,
because most of the families fell in that category. I think there's a
very big difference between a child being raised in, and accepting an
'alternative' family environment, and a child being neglected and abused.

Thousands of children are robbed of their childhood by people, mostly
men, who use and abuse them.

Yep - and a huge number of those people, those -men-, are the fathers,
uncles, stepfathers, and suchlike of the children they molest. Seems to
me like an argument -against- the archtypical hetero-family relationship.

Some of these concepts are very close to the line of impropriety.

The concept of children being abused, neglected, or sexually molested is
definately well beyond the bounds of impropriety. The concept of loving
families, be they F/F, M/F, F/m, or F/F/M or even F/F/F/m/m/m/m, so long
as they provide a loving, nurturing environment for the kids, is not.

Please err, if you will on the side of normalicy(radical word eh!),
giving them as protected an upbringing as possible until they are of a
proper age. As one who was viciously molested at the age of ten, I
guess I feel strongly about it for personal reasons.

I feel pretty strongly about such things myself - but put the blame where
blame is due, on the abusers, the molesters, and those parents / relatives
who allow such things to happen by turning a blind eye to situations.

(PS - Feh! You're -another- one with a bleeding "Reply To" that makes
replies -not- go to the list! My previous post probably went just to
you.

-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- The trouble with hell is that the ambient temperature is above the flash
-- point of alcohol. Which means you can't linger over your drink.
-- Alexis A Gilliland

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #179
************************************************

From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:40 1996
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From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
Organization: Holiday Villas
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:03:02 +0100
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Hello all,

I saw this message from Jay Wiseman posted to the thistles list
and was intrigued. Coming from Europe I've never heard of the
Vashi?

So if anyone does mail a reply to Jay, please cc me or the
list. I like to keep myself informed. (read nosey parker!). :)

Love David.
http://www.nixnet.com/MsChristine


------- Forwarded Message Follows -------


Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:20:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Wiseman



Hi folks,

For a few months now, some people on America Online and
Compuserve have held themselves forth as experts on something
they are calling "Classic SM." Supposedly, they are imparting
the teachings of this "Classic" form of SM to the deserving
few. I have heard that the teachings are handed down from a
"very old" somewhat secretive organization, possibly out of
Europe, and possibly called something like the "Vashi."

Does any of this sound familiar? Has anybody heard of anything
along these lines? Personally, I am _extremely_ skeptical, but
I thought I'd ask around before I do anything further.

Please feel free to forward this inquiry as you feel
appropriate. To save bandwidth, please send replies directly
to me unless you feel there is some very strong reason to share
them with everyone.

Regards,

Jay Wiseman




the subject "help".


From - Fri Sep 6 19:28:42 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:28:33 -0700
From: femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com
Message-Id: <199609041328.GAA00500@davinci.renaissoft.com
To: virtjack@iprolink.ch
Subject: Re: help
References: <322D9FE7.579E@iprolink.ch
In-Reply-To: <322D9FE7.579E@iprolink.ch
X-Loop: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
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Renaissoft Mailing List Services
--------------------------------

Each mailing list has two addresses associated with it: the "posting"
address, and the "-request" address.

The posting address is the address you send your posts to, so that
everyone else on the mailing list receives them. The posting address
is named after the list itself, so for example a list called "widgets"
would have a posting address of widgets@renaissoft.com.

The -request address is the address you send commands and
administrative requests to, so that an automated processor can deal
with them. The -request address is named after the list as well, but
has the suffix "-request" tacked on, so our "widgets" list would have
a -request address of widgets-request@renaissoft.com.

All of the commands you see listed below should be sent to the
-request address of the mailing list you're on; DO NOT SEND THESE
COMMANDS TO THE POSTING ADDRESS, or they'll be sent out to all the
list subscribers, who'll then know that you're an incompetent twit
who can't read.

That said, here's a list of the mailing list and archive server
commands we support. If you need more help (from a human being), feel
free to write to listmaster@renaissoft.com.


Mailing List Commands:

SUBSCRIBE [address]

Aliases: ADD, JOIN, SIGNON

To subscribe to a mailing list, send mail to the -request
address with your "Subject:" field as follows:

Subject: subscribe

If you wish to subscribe an e-mail address other than the one
you're sending from, you can optionally specify that address:

Subject: subscribe your@other.address

NOTE: When you subscribe to a mailing list, the full text
of your subscription request (including headers) is sent to
the subscribed address as a means of notification and
confirmation. In other words, if you use this feature to
subscribe someone else as a prank, that person will be able
to see who the subscription request came from; if the list
administrators are notified about this, you'll find yourself
summarily banned from the list.


UNSUBSCRIBE [address]

Aliases: REMOVE, LEAVE, CANCEL, DELETE, SIGNOFF

To unsubscribe from a mailing list, send mail to the -request
address with your "Subject:" field as follows:

Subject: unsubscribe

If you wish to unsubscribe an e-mail address other than the
one you're sending from (perhaps because the old address has
been shut down, and you have a new account), you can specify
that other address as well:

Subject: unsubscribe your@other.address

NOTE: When you unsubscribe from a mailing list, the full text
of your unsubscription request (including headers) is sent to
the unsubscribed address as a means of notification and
confirmation. In other words, if you use this feature to
unsubscribe someone else as a prank, that person will be able
to see who the unsubscription request came from; if the list
administrators are notified about this, you'll find yourself
summarily banned from the list.


HELP

Aliases: INFO

You're looking at the help-file now, but if you ever want to
get another (newer, possibly updated) copy, you can send mail
to the -request address with your "Subject:" field set to:

Subject: help



Archive Server Commands:

SEND
Aliases: GET, SENDME, GETME, GIMME, RETRIEVE, MAIL

Once you know the name of the archive and the name of the file
in that archive you'd like to receive, you can have that file
sent to you by writing to the -request address with your
"Subject:" field set as follows:

Subject: archive send
If you want to get more than one file from the archives, you
can do so by setting your "Subject:" field to:

Subject: archive

In the BODY of your message, you can then list the SEND
requests for each of the files you want, one on each line, as
in:

send send send
Wildcards are also supported, so you can request, say, all
files in an archive by doing something like this:

Subject: archive send

Or you can get index files from all the archives by doing
something like this:

Subject: archive send */index


LIST
Aliases: DIR, DIRECTORY, LS, SHOW

If you want an up-to-date list of the files in an archive,
send mail to the -request address with your "Subject:" field
set to:

Subject: archive list
This will return a raw file listing of the contents of the
archive, without any descriptions of the files themselves. If
you want a more detailed index, you'd be better off requesting
the index file for that archive with the SEND command (see
SEND).

Wildcards are also supported, so you can, for example, get a
listing of all the files in all the archives by doing this:

Subject: archive list *


SEARCH
Aliases: EGREP, GREP, FGREP, FIND

This command allows you to search through a text file in an
archive, scanning for patterns. The patterns themselves are
UNIX regular expressions (regexps) of the sort used by the
grep family. To scan a specific file for a pattern, send mail
to the -request address with the "Subject:" field set to:

Subject: archive search
Wildcards are also supported, so you can, for example, search
through all the files in a given archive by doing this:

Subject: archive search


MAXFILES
Aliases: none

For your own protection, the archive server limits the number
of files it will send you in one SEND or SEARCH request;
without it, you might find yourself receiving hundreds of
files if you used a wildcard in your request. If, however,
you want to raise or lower this limit (the default is 16 files
per request), you can specify this with your SEND request by
setting your "Subject:" field to:

Subject: archive

In the body of your message, start by specifying the new file
limit, then list all your SEND requests, i.e.:

maxfiles send send
send


VERSION

Aliases: none

If you're curious about our mailing list and archive server
software, you can find out what we're using by sending the
following to the -request address:

Subject: archive version


QUIT

Aliases: EXIT

If your mail program appends a non-standard signature to your
outgoing messages (i.e. one that doesn't start with "--" at
the beginning of a new line), you can use the QUIT command to
tell the archive server that there are no more commands below.
This prevents the archive server from blindly trying to read
and interpret your signature as archive commands. Naturally,
this command is only used in the body of requests, e.g.:

send send send quit

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com

From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:20 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:31:07 -0700
From: femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com
Message-Id: <199609061731.KAA31704@davinci.renaissoft.com
To: virtjack@iprolink.ch
References: <322D9FE7.579E@iprolink.ch <199609041328.GAA00500@davinci.renaissoft.com <32307BAC.5D13@iprolink.ch
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X-Mozilla-Status: 0009

File: resources/help.txt
BEGIN------------cut here-------------
Renaissoft Mailing List Services
--------------------------------

Each mailing list has two addresses associated with it: the "posting"
address, and the "-request" address.

The posting address is the address you send your posts to, so that
everyone else on the mailing list receives them. The posting address
is named after the list itself, so for example a list called "widgets"
would have a posting address of widgets@renaissoft.com.

The -request address is the address you send commands and
administrative requests to, so that an automated processor can deal
with them. The -request address is named after the list as well, but
has the suffix "-request" tacked on, so our "widgets" list would have
a -request address of widgets-request@renaissoft.com.

All of the commands you see listed below should be sent to the
-request address of the mailing list you're on; DO NOT SEND THESE
COMMANDS TO THE POSTING ADDRESS, or they'll be sent out to all the
list subscribers, who'll then know that you're an incompetent twit
who can't read.

That said, here's a list of the mailing list and archive server
commands we support. If you need more help (from a human being), feel
free to write to listmaster@renaissoft.com.


Mailing List Commands:

SUBSCRIBE [address]

Aliases: ADD, JOIN, SIGNON

To subscribe to a mailing list, send mail to the -request
address with your "Subject:" field as follows:

Subject: subscribe

If you wish to subscribe an e-mail address other than the one
you're sending from, you can optionally specify that address:

Subject: subscribe your@other.address

NOTE: When you subscribe to a mailing list, the full text
of your subscription request (including headers) is sent to
the subscribed address as a means of notification and
confirmation. In other words, if you use this feature to
subscribe someone else as a prank, that person will be able
to see who the subscription request came from; if the list
administrators are notified about this, you'll find yourself
summarily banned from the list.


UNSUBSCRIBE [address]

Aliases: REMOVE, LEAVE, CANCEL, DELETE, SIGNOFF

To unsubscribe from a mailing list, send mail to the -request
address with your "Subject:" field as follows:

Subject: unsubscribe

If you wish to unsubscribe an e-mail address other than the
one you're sending from (perhaps because the old address has
been shut down, and you have a new account), you can specify
that other address as well:

Subject: unsubscribe your@other.address

NOTE: When you unsubscribe from a mailing list, the full text
of your unsubscription request (including headers) is sent to
the unsubscribed address as a means of notification and
confirmation. In other words, if you use this feature to
unsubscribe someone else as a prank, that person will be able
to see who the unsubscription request came from; if the list
administrators are notified about this, you'll find yourself
summarily banned from the list.


HELP

Aliases: INFO

You're looking at the help-file now, but if you ever want to
get another (newer, possibly updated) copy, you can send mail
to the -request address with your "Subject:" field set to:

Subject: help



Archive Server Commands:

SEND
Aliases: GET, SENDME, GETME, GIMME, RETRIEVE, MAIL

Once you know the name of the archive and the name of the file
in that archive you'd like to receive, you can have that file
sent to you by writing to the -request address with your
"Subject:" field set as follows:

Subject: archive send
If you want to get more than one file from the archives, you
can do so by setting your "Subject:" field to:

Subject: archive

In the BODY of your message, you can then list the SEND
requests for each of the files you want, one on each line, as
in:

send send send
Wildcards are also supported, so you can request, say, all
files in an archive by doing something like this:

Subject: archive send

Or you can get index files from all the archives by doing
something like this:

Subject: archive send */index


LIST
Aliases: DIR, DIRECTORY, LS, SHOW

If you want an up-to-date list of the files in an archive,
send mail to the -request address with your "Subject:" field
set to:

Subject: archive list
This will return a raw file listing of the contents of the
archive, without any descriptions of the files themselves. If
you want a more detailed index, you'd be better off requesting
the index file for that archive with the SEND command (see
SEND).

Wildcards are also supported, so you can, for example, get a
listing of all the files in all the archives by doing this:

Subject: archive list *


SEARCH
Aliases: EGREP, GREP, FGREP, FIND

This command allows you to search through a text file in an
archive, scanning for patterns. The patterns themselves are
UNIX regular expressions (regexps) of the sort used by the
grep family. To scan a specific file for a pattern, send mail
to the -request address with the "Subject:" field set to:

Subject: archive search
Wildcards are also supported, so you can, for example, search
through all the files in a given archive by doing this:

Subject: archive search


MAXFILES
Aliases: none

For your own protection, the archive server limits the number
of files it will send you in one SEND or SEARCH request;
without it, you might find yourself receiving hundreds of
files if you used a wildcard in your request. If, however,
you want to raise or lower this limit (the default is 16 files
per request), you can specify this with your SEND request by
setting your "Subject:" field to:

Subject: archive

In the body of your message, start by specifying the new file
limit, then list all your SEND requests, i.e.:

maxfiles send send
send


VERSION

Aliases: none

If you're curious about our mailing list and archive server
software, you can find out what we're using by sending the
following to the -request address:

Subject: archive version


QUIT

Aliases: EXIT

If your mail program appends a non-standard signature to your
outgoing messages (i.e. one that doesn't start with "--" at
the beginning of a new line), you can use the QUIT command to
tell the archive server that there are no more commands below.
This prevents the archive server from blindly trying to read
and interpret your signature as archive commands. Naturally,
this command is only used in the body of requests, e.g.:

send send send quit

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com
END--------------cut here-------------

From - Sat Sep 7 11:35:23 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:31:07 -0700
From: femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com
Message-Id: <199609061731.KAA31713@davinci.renaissoft.com
To: virtjack@iprolink.ch
References: <322D9FE7.579E@iprolink.ch <199609041328.GAA00500@davinci.renaissoft.com <32307BAC.5D13@iprolink.ch
In-Reply-To: <32307BAC.5D13@iprolink.ch
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Precedence: bulk
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File: resources/faq.txt
BEGIN------------cut here-------------
Welcome to the Female Supremacy mailing-list. This list was created
in October 1994 to meet the growing demand for a forum where the topic
of Female Supremacist lifestyles and politics could be discussed. It
may be thought of as an offshoot of the alt.sex.femdom newsgroup, but
with a more narrow and serious focus.


What Female Supremacy is:

Female Supremacy (sometimes referred to as Gynosupremacy) is a social
and political ideology that places Women above men in importance,
authority, and power--in many ways a reversal of the power balance
present in the male-dominated world today. Many Female Supremacists
believe that male domination is at the heart of many of the world's
past and present ills, and that a return to the Matriarchy of old is
in our best interests.


What Female Supremacy is NOT:

It is easy to confuse Female Supremacy with Female Domination. Female
Domination ("Femdom") involves sexual domination by a Woman, and this
is a tool sometimes used by Female Supremacists to achieve Their
goals. Female Supremacy itself, however, is the agenda, the goal, the
end to which Female Domination is merely a means. Many Femdoms
dominate for financial gain, for personal pleasure, or the pleasure it
gives Their partners. The Femsuprem dominates as a means toward
empowering Women, re-educating men, and reversing the power balance in
the world, ultimately to re-establish the Matriarchy if She chooses to
utilize such sexual practices.


Who is welcome to participate in this list?

Women and men interested in the ideals of Female Supremacy are more
than welcome here; this forum is intended as a source of educational,
informative, and thought-provoking discussion on the subject, and
fresh perspectives are always welcome.

Femsuprem organizations are most welcome here. Their literature and
FAQs may be made available through the archive server for all to
access. It should be noted that no single organization holds sway
over this mailing-list, as the list was created to serve the interests
of the topic, not a particular group; ANY and ALL Femsuprem
organizations may post here without discrimination.


Who is NOT welcome here?

This list was created for the purpose of serious discussion, questions
and answers. While a difference of opinion is healthy in any forum,
outright flames and flame-baiting will not be tolerated here. This
list is moderated very loosely at present, and if the need arises this
can change to full moderation at any time. Remember, this isn't a
newsgroup--please limit your flames to private e-mail. Those who
abuse members of the list publicly will be first warned, and if they
persist, banned.


What kinds of topics are discussed here?

Anything and everything relating to Female Supremacy is relevant here,
with one exception. Binary posts (e.g. images) should NOT be posted
to the list; instead, post the binaries to an appropriate newsgroup
and direct the readers of the list to that file, or simply offer to
mail the binaries to those who request it.

Advertising is acceptable as long as it relates to Female Supremacy;
ads for other products or services are inappropriate for this forum.
This is NOT an appropriate place for professional Femdoms to post
Their advertisements. Ads for Femsuprem organizations should be
stored on the archive server in order to reduce needless clutter on
the list itself; a short note posted to the list can direct interested
readers to the appropriate text file.


How do I subscribe to the list?

To join the list, just send mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com,
with the word "subscribe" as the subject of your mail; the body of the
message is ignored. To subscribe to the digested version of the list
instead, use the address femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com.

You should send the subscription request from the account where you
wish to receive the mailings, since this is the address that will be
registered for you.


How do I post or reply to someone's post to the list?

To post a message to the mailing-list, simply send your message to
femsupremacy@renaissoft.com, and it will go to everyone on the list.

When you reply to a message, it will automatically be sent out to
everyone on the list, just like in a newsgroup. If you wish to speak
to the author of a message privately, you'll have to send Her or him a
new e-mail message (not a reply).


What if I want to unsubscribe from the list?

To unsubscribe from the mailing-list, simply send a message with the
word "unsubscribe" as the subject to the "-request" address, i.e.
femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com for the main list, or
femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com for the digested list.


I'm trying to unsubscribe, but the list keeps telling me it can't find
me on the subscription list, and I'm still receiving mailings! What
should I do?

One of two things could be wrong here:

1) You're trying to unsubscribe from the wrong list. Maybe
you subscribed to the digested version of the list, but you
sent your unsubscribe message to the main list's request
address by mistake. Since each list has its own separate
subscription listing, you have to send the request to the
proper address.

2) You originally subscribed to the list under a different
e-mail address than the one you're using to send your
unsubscribe requests. If, for example, you subscribed from
an address like "me@alpha.domain.com" and you try to
unsubscribe from "me@beta.domain.com", the software may not
recognize that these are from the same person. If you
think this is what might be happening, write to the list
administrator (listmaster@renaissoft.com) and provide a
list of the addresses you think you might be subscribed
under, or a wildcard pattern (e.g. "me@*.domain.com"). The
list software WILL get smarter about such things, but for
now this is the most effective solution.

If you DO find the need to write to the administrator for help
removing yourself from the list, make sure your letter contains enough
information about your situation. Specifically:

a) Your e-mail address
b) The list(s) you're subscribed to (digested? non-digested?)
c) The list(s) you want to be removed from (digested? non-digested?)
d) Any other e-mail addresses you think you might be
subscribed under, or a wildcard pattern (e.g. "me@*.domain.com)


What if my address changes?

In the event of an address change, it would probably be wisest to
first send an unsubscribe message for the old address. This can be
done from the new address by sending an unsubscribe message of the
form "unsubscribe
address explaining that you have been unsubscribed, and includes the
full unsubscribe message, so that if this was not your intention (or
even your doing!) you can see where the unsubscribe message came from.

Once you've unsubscribed your old address, you can send a subscribe
message from your new address to rejoin the list.


Is there a digest version of this list?

Yes. Due to popular demand, you can now subscribe to a digest version
of the Femsupremacy list if you prefer. Digests go out about every 3
days, or when a sufficient amount of traffic has been generated. To
subscribe to the digest list, send mail to:

To: femsupremacy-digest-request@renaissoft.com
Subject: subscribe

You'll probably want to unsubscribe from the main list if you do so,
since otherwise you'll be receiving redundant mail.


What kinds of archives are available?

Our file archives contain news articles, stories, profiles, resource
pointers and information of interest to Femsupremacists. You'll also
find literature from Femsuprem organizations such as the Orb & Scepter
here.

At present we offer the following archives:

Archive Name Content Description
============ ========================================
articles (News and magazine articles)
creative (Creative works)
latest (Recent articles posted to the list)
orb (Orb & Scepter archives)
profiles (Profiles of Femsupremacist individuals)
resources (Miscellaneous Femsupremacy resources

The "articles" archive is devoted to news clippings and articles that
pertain to Female Supremacy and Women's issues in general.

The "creative" archive is for creative works on the subject of Female
Supremacy, such as fiction and poetry.

The "latest" archive contains the most recent postings to the mailing
list, in case you missed them and need to catch up.

The "orb" archive contains materials provided by the Orb & Scepter, a
Female Supremacist organization located in the United States.

The "profiles" archive contains biographies and profiles of dominant
Women, with a focus on those who practice Female Supremacist
lifestyles.

The "resources" archive serves as a catch-all for useful files and
information of relevance to Women.

We also plan to add more archives eventually, so if you have a
contribution you think would benefit the readers of this list and it
doesn't fit neatly into any of the existing archives, please feel free
to write to us.

Female Supremacist organizations wishing to establish archives on our
server for their literature should contact listadmin@renaissoft.com.


How do I access the archives?

To retrieve files from the archives, you first need to know the
name of the archive itself (see the previous section, "What kinds of
archives are available?", for a list of archives).

Once you know the name of the archive you want to access, you can get
a list of the documents it contains by sending mail to the -request
address (femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com), with the words "archive
send
for all archive and file names.

For example, suppose the mythical organization "FemDom International"
has an archive called "femdom". Sending mail to the -request address
with the subject "archive send femdom/index" will send you the list of
documents provided by FemDom. Please note: this example is
FICTITIOUS--there is no archive called "femdom".

To retrieve any of these documents, simply send mail to the -request
address above with the subject "archive send
where

To continue our hypothetical example, suppose the index file for
FemDom International lists a document called:

charter - ( 4k) Our policies and principles

You could retrieve this 4k text file by sending mail to the -request
address with the subject "archive send femdom/charter" (again, note
that "femdom/charter" does not really exist).


Are there any restrictions on archive use?

Yes. In order to use the archives, you must be a list member. This
is so that when we institute new features or policy changes you can be
advised of these.

There are no restrictions on the number of files a list member can
request from the archives, though for your own protection, by default
a maximum of 16 files will be sent per request (this number can be
raised with the MAXFILES command--see the help file for more details
on the archive server).


Can I access the archives with FTP, Gopher, or from the Web?

Yes. Soon you'll be able to ftp to ftp.renaissoft.com and find the
Femsupremacy archives under /pub/mailing-lists/femsupremacy. Gopher
service is likely in the near future, as well as a Web page for you to
visit with your favourite browser (e.g. Mosaic, Netscape, etc.). Look
for these sometime in May.


How can I find out who else subscribes to this list?

You can't, so don't bother asking for a membership list, or even a
precise headcount. The best you can do is watch the list and see who
posts to it. This policy is there for security and privacy reasons,
and to make the list feel a bit more like a newsgroup.


Can I repost or publish messages that are posted to this list?

Not without the express written permission of the post's author and
the list administrator (listadmin@renaissoft.com). If the post
contains quoted material belonging to other list members, you will
also have to secure permission from them as well.


Where can I find up-to-date information about the list?

Important changes to the list, such as the addition of new features,
will be sent out to all list subscribers. On the other hand, this
introductory message will likely evolve over time, so this document
will be mailed out to all subscribers on the first day of each month.
If you need another copy, you can get one anytime you like by sending
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the word "help" as
your subject.


Who can I contact about this list?

If you have questions or comments about the technical aspects of this
list (e.g. how to access archives, or how to do just about anything
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From - Wed Sep 11 16:52:03 1996
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strong hugs of support for you Leather, you said it good...I was not
going to touch it for a couple of days..brought up pretty emotional
stuff...and I could not have said it as well...
Keep the Faith Woman...we are increasing in numbers and if your post is
any indication in eloquence as well.
Patricia


leather wrote:

kriv wrote:

I feel FS has nothing to do with religion, economics etc.

Kind of like an ignition having nothing to with the car?

It has to do with
a relationship between a man and a woman. A very intricate relationship, we
all agree. And it all comes down to one thing: sex.

I disagree. I feel FS is an all-encompassing frame of mind. If a female
restricts Her supremacy to the bedroom, isn't that merely a "role" in a
fantasy game? This is not My conception of Female Supremacy!!!

It is also *not* limited to the relationship between a man and a Woman! It
has to do with empowerment of all females! It has to do with *not* being
controlled by men (or women) to the point where She loses Her self and
sacrifices Her power!

Boiling it all down to one thing: sex, is limiting your potential to give
of yourself in order to create a mutually pleasant environment! I keep
thinking back on previous postings to this list that related the gender
differences (male manipulation of the female to get what he wants: sex...
to the point of "pushing" and the analogy of women being content in a field
of flowers) and Patricia's disturbing... but true... stats on Domestic
Violence.

When a female dabbles with FS, she is setting Herself up to change Her
whole life and thinking for the better! It may start in the bedroom but
will no doubt seep into every corner of Her mind and every aspect of Her
life! MORE power to HER! Of course, I've considered the good/bad will
posting (which was very good) and assumed it is for the good.

Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so much in need of her
submissive man that she will do anything to keep him?

Not as much as My submissive (and actually all of society) is in need of
Me. If I can bring about one ort of change in the way "people" treat women
or the way women allow themselves to be treated... then I am needed (and I
strive to accomplish this daily).

Will she give in to his sexual desires and quirks so that he will be happy
and will remain with her?

I would never deliberately "give in" to anything for the sole purpose of
his happiness but I like to think that I have enough of an open mind to try
those suggestions that genuinely arouse *My* interest! (You must have this
list confused with aol or CoDA!?!) I'm not saying that men are disposable
but if his happiness is the catalyst without thought or pursuit of Her
own... go now and betray yourself no more!

Is she then relegating herself to the role of a whore?

Most definately... be careful here. "Female Supremacy" is the name of the
list you are treading and I haven't encountered any female participants who
fit your previous or following descriptions.

Or:

Who is in control here? Is a dominant woman so attuned to her power and
sexuality and is a man such a crude sexual creature that she can use this
sexuality to get him to do whatever she wishes?

Peter... I sense a desperate need for you to disprove your past experiences
and male reality. Unfortunately, I'm not the one to do it. I am not
eloquent enough or invested, in you, enough to enlighten your perceptions!
Please... close your eyes and try to look at the world through the crack in
your reality that got you here!... here's a hug ((((*)))) to ease your
confusion and anger that you may be wrong about FS theory/motivation!

If you want to learn more, sit down, open your mind, and just learn it!

Emerging Women's Reality in a White Male Society,
Leather

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------------------------------

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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:
Re: Re Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Catholics
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Catholics
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
"The Matriarchy"
Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Re: Central vs. Peripheral
Re: Central vs. Peripheral
Re: Central vs. Peripheral
Re: Good&Bad Will

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:09:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Re Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, New User wrote:

I thought it was highly revealing that Micah Martin's response to Laura
Goodwin's claim concerning women's abilities and men's fear of them was to
bring up Weightlifting!!

What do you imagine it reveals? It made my point, and refuted someone
else's. Obviously, I chose my example with intent. And?

How about banking? Or cold selling securities over the phone? Or picking
stocks? Or sharpshooting? Or equestrianism? Anything other than boxing and
weightlifting which are the province of those with great upper body
strength.

How about them? I would find it harder to show that women as a class were
not in fact better at some of these (which may well be the case.) Hence, I
did not use them as examples. If this reveals something about my process
of thought, I can live with the ignominy.

How many men could have taken a match off Martina Navratilova when she was
at the peak of her game? Ten or twenty? Fifty? Not too many in other words.

Irrelevant, since the claim was not that women were as good or almost as
good, but that they were better--or would be, except for the fact that
the cards had been stacked against them.

Goodwin's point is the interesting one though. Men have certainly done their
best to keep women down.

That wasn't her point, it was one of her premises.

Recall the saga of women winning the right to run the marathon, or more
recently the rumpus when a woman started beating men at sharpshooting at
the highest level. Men would no longer compete with her.

This is nothing new. Anne Oakley garnered the same reaction.

It isn't as if all women can be better than all men at any particular
activity, but some women are better than almost all men, and for some
reason this is profoundly threatening to (most) men.

The claim being made was that women on average were better than men
on average, at everything.

I remember back in the early seventies, around the time of Spassky vs
Fischer, reading that women would just never be that good at chess. Of
course back then there weren't very many women outside the Soviet Union
playing chess at a competitive level. Then came Judit Polgar and her
sisters.

This is a fascinating example, in fact. But it does not serve to establish
that women are *better* at chess than men, and that is the claim. Where's
the evidence?

Suddenly it became quite clear that if you had girls with an aptitude for
chess and you prepped them hard and made them play a lot they could become
Grandmasters(Mistresses).

The situation in mathematics for one other example is rather similar. If
it hadn't been for Max Noether, it isn't likely that Emmy Noether could
have gone very far. But again, the existence of women like Emmy Noether
simply fails to give us any reason to believe the claim. Where's the beef?

So far there haven't been any women to break into the very highest reaches
of the game, but there are still only limited numbers of women who play
chess competitively. No one doubts now that someday a woman might come
along who could compete with the Karpovs, Anands and even the Kasparovs.

Of course, by then a computer will be better than anyone...Deep Blue made
that pretty clear.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:20:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On 10 Sep 1996, Jon Woolven wrote:

P.S. to micah-l-martin

Please stop accusing other people of misrepresenting your argument whilst
blantantly doing so to theirs. It is very irritating.

There's little point in issuing such a complain unless you tell me

a) Where I accused other people of misrepresenting my argument, and

b) Where I blatantly did that very thing with someone else's argument.

One thing I will do is take people literally, rather than attempting to
guess what they really meant. No doubt this can be irritating, but
characterizing it as blatant misrepresentation I don't buy.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Catholics
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, robert and fiona forsythe wrote:

100000@river.biddeford.com, "Micah L. Martin"
writes

Have you ever read the novels of Charles Williams? In one of them, a
certain Sir Giles Tumulty muses "All sex is either sadism or masochism,
and given the delusion of the Galilean that he loved the world, clearly
the crucifixion was simply the ultimate masochistic act..." I'm quoting
from memory (i think from _War in Heaven_) but such is the gist.

5 so a debate about the nature of Christ's Easter passion and about any
parallels with human passion may be worthwhile but not if it becomes an
occasion to cock a snoop at Christian beliefs.

Just to be clear about all this, Charles Williams was a well-known
Christian author and a close friend of C. S. Lewis.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:27:45 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID: <32365BE1.6512@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

this is moving quickly from the realm of tautology to scatology...

they must learn the language before they can speak to us..and in order
to learn the language they must stop and listen....listening is not one
of the things they do best...but if they wish to understand instead of
go to war with their own..they will listen.
for the we love women cannot be taken seriously in the saying of it...it
is in the doing of it that our love is won.
Patricia


Micah L. Martin wrote:

On 10 Sep 1996, Jon Woolven wrote:

P.S. to micah-l-martin

Please stop accusing other people of misrepresenting your argument whilst
blantantly doing so to theirs. It is very irritating.

There's little point in issuing such a complain unless you tell me

a) Where I accused other people of misrepresenting my argument, and

b) Where I blatantly did that very thing with someone else's argument.

One thing I will do is take people literally, rather than attempting to
guess what they really meant. No doubt this can be irritating, but
characterizing it as blatant misrepresentation I don't buy.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:14:31 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: williams@bayboro.stpt.usf.edu
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:

I have an idea here, that will of course only work if you're willing
to participate. ;) Write up a list of what you consider "feminine"
traits, and what you consider "masculine" traits. It can prove to be
an interesting exercise.

Substitute Asian for feminine and American for masculine. Should we all
submit to those born in the Pacific Rim?

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:35:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Micah L. Martin"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Catholics
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Patricia wrote:

It explains a lot of catholic theology that I always found troubling,
expecially the one that ultimately turned me away from my parents
religion. When I was in 5th grade they taught us of this girl who was
becoming a Saint, because she chose death over being raped (being made
impure was they way they said it) by this man. That hit some button in
me that made me nuts.

I think part of the reason they made her a saint was because she forgave
her attacker on her deathbed. I'm not sure if that is likely to make you
more nuts, or less, but to me it is as good a reason as any to declare
sanctity.

In fact, all she did (as a girl of twelve, if I recall correctly) was to
fight off a big twenty-year old male who was trying to rape her.

Death before rape..I think not.

Dante put some nuns who *didn't* choose death over rape into a lower part
of Paradise (the Moon.) This stuff has been going on for a while.

Of course, the sociobiologists would likely claim it is an example of
males imposing something with a subconscious motivation of benefiting their
genetic legacy.


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Noble wrote:

It is the difference between the slash and burn mentality that has so
shamelessly despoiled our mother the earth who are now spending billions
on space flight and terraforming..coming up with real scientific ways to
make Mars habitable for humans after we have nothing left on Earth.
Your tax dollars are funding this research......

Patricia,

As one of them ol' tree-huggin' radical environmentalist
Oregonians, I have long admired your contributions to this list which
highlight your reverence for Mother Earth. Since I do my work in the
mainstream I talk to folks in terms of how preserving Nature will
benefit *them*, and do not attempt to tie it to Female Supremacy. Some
of my feminist friends in the movement are more in tune with the female
principle of the Earth, but as far as I know none of them are FS. Of
course, maybe they just ain't tellin'!
This summer was a very busy time for me and I am just now getting
the e-mail from my various accounts sorted out. One of the true gems
was a post of yours on July 26 entitled "Just One Of The Beasts". I'd
like to thank you very much for sharing this story and wish you to know
that it meant, and means, very much to me.

Peace,

Barry


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: "The Matriarchy"
Message-Id: <199609110507.WAA02111@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 6578

Jonnan West wrote:

This presupposes that fear of losing power is some intellectually
or emotionally logical position. A Bully is a Bully because he or she (I
know from personal experience that they come in both varieties) is so
fearful of being hurt that they cannot -stand- the thought of someone
being strong enough to hurt them, (And in my experience BTW, there is
usually -some- logical motivation for this - Most often a abusive
relationship) and they therefore make sure to keep anyone who might be so
capable either A- In awe of them, or B- Labelled (or Beaten) in such a
way as to keep them down from them.

The sad thing, however, is that if the bully is a young boy, people
just shake their heads and go, "Tsk tsk, boys will be boys." If the
bully's a girl, then she's often chastized for not being ladylike and
nice and sweet and pink and frills. So, the boy bullies are basically
told what they're doing is ok. The girl bullies are perhaps driven
more to it because they feel they can't even be proper girls. Where
does that get anyone? It gets us a society where guys feel it's right
and proper to be bullies if they're so inclined. Business, politics,
etc. are full of them.

None of which reflects on the abilities of the Bully. He/She may
be intelligent, strong, charismatic, in their own right (Indeed often
are. Most Bullies get that way because other Bullies at one time
perceived them as some sort of threat. In My Experience anyway), However
their inner lack of confidence forces them to bully others to avoid being
bullied. That a Patriarchal (Androarchal?) society is inherently a
society based on this form of bullheadedness I have no qualms conceding.
I just don't see that a Matriarchal (Gynarchal - Whatever) society would
be any improvement. I've -met- female bullies. The are -just- as screwy
as male bullies. The argument does not stand.

Agreed. Bullies are often low in self esteem, self worth, or self
confidence deep down. The problem is that they turn that into causing
people around them to feel the same way. Kind of "Misery loves
company" in a highly antisocial form. And, yes, bullies exist in both
genders. However, IMO in a matriarchal society it would be less
tolerated.

A friend used a term I found rather interested the other day: "Female
Pre-Eminence." Her personal beliefs are that women aren't,
themselves, "superior" to anyone. They're more that those things
which fall into the "feminine" are beyond necessary to keep those
things which are considered "masculine" in check. She feels that
which is "feminine" (I think, after talking with her about this for a
while) should have slightly higher value, so it can stand against the
more aggressive "masculine." I think sometimes the folks who focus on
"women" and "men" are being too literal. I personally think in terms
of "feminine" and "masculine," both of which are in all of us. That's
why I tried to ask someone to list what they consider "Feminine" and
"Masculine," but it was once again taken too literally. This isn't a
new principle, check out the Yin and the Yang.

I -hate- to argue semantics, but I'm not -quite- sure what your
intention is here. Do you mean that (In a fair contest) Any woman would
beat any male, that the average woman would beat the average male, that
some women would beat some men (I don't doubt tis true) or what? I can be
beaten by some males in my best abilities, and by some women. Why would I
suppress the women and not the men? I do my best, in -any- arena, against
any competition, to win with honor, or to lose having fought well and
honorably. Winning is funner (Actually, losing to a student may be funner
yet, but that's a different argument -
having fought well than win dishonorably. (Ye Gods. I sound like Jonnan,
Son of Mogh -

Some folks consider anyone who considers themselves to be a woman, a
woman. So, if you had a massively built weightlifter, born male,
considering himself to be a woman...well, there you go. I know, more
games of semantics, but so many folks here seem to enjoy them so
much. I wish people would focus more on what folks mean instead of
what they're literally saying (not directed at you in particular,
Jonnan, more at the group in general). Jonnan at least will admit
that he may not be following the meaning, and tries to reply as best
he can according to what he thought folks said. Others like the
little game of "Well, you didn't capitalize that i, so I'm going to
assume you meant just any network of networks instead of _the
Internet_." Isn't that just a wee bit childish?

Note: Yes, it's true. "internet" is just a network of networks.
"Internet" is _the Internet_, that thing we're all sending our e-mail
over. :)

My original question still stands. Why? More precisely, why would
one care to copy the worst attributes of the oppressor, determined that
to protect yourself you must keep another down, unable to possibly cause
harm. Certainly Women must rule themselves. -Anyone- must rule
themselves, for Freedom, within the limits of the mind at least, is the
right and privilege of any sentient being.

Well, for one thing, remember this...not everyone here agrees on what
Female Supremacy is, what it should be, or what the world should be
like when FS "is." All you can do is talk to individual people about
their beliefs. I think it's hard to discuss something you hold near
and dear to your heart when you've got a group of people demanding
that you immediately explain why your personal beliefs are the
TRUTH...I dunno, I find that a bit overwhelming. It's like going onto
any religion's mailing list and saying, "Right now, tell me why I
should believe in YOU people." We're not evangelists. We're here
because we have deep, personal reasons for being here. The way to
understand is to get to know the people first. The reasons will
come.

Is Matriarchy, as you see it, merely an inversion between the
bullied and the bullier? And if so, why would it be an improvement?

No. My idea of the Matriarchy doesn't involve enslaving any gender.
Nor saying any gender has no use/purpose/worth. How's that for a
start?

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:56:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Egalitarian vs Femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199609110556.WAA02147@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1500

Jonnan West wrote:

Well, I can give you a list of the -stereotypical- male and
female traits. However, in my experience, these stereotypes have little
or nothing to do with reality.

I didn't ask for male and female, I asked for feminine and masculine.
;) Both combine to make a whole, as in the yin and the yang. To
maybe understand a little better what I mean, check out this wonderful
web site:

http://www.ion.com.au/yoni/yonititle.html

The 'Stereotypes' are that men are logical, women intuitive, men
rational, women emotional, men conquer, women manipulate. The problem is
that, in my circle of friends at least, these stereotypes don't stand up
to -any- scrutiny. If I had to sort people into 'Masculine' and
'Feminine' based on any given trait (Save childbirth -
gender, then I would find that aproximately half of each group would be
male and half female. I -might- find a trait that was so accurate as to
produce a group that was 60% of one or the other genders.

Well, you got my point even though you didn't. We all have "feminine"
and "masculine" traits. What I was looking for was which traits are
considered "masculine" and which "feminine."

Dee-Ann

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 04:10:50 -0700
From: morte@interlog.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Central vs. Peripheral
Message-ID: <32369E3A.137@interlog.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Micah L. Martin wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Jonnan West wrote:

To be fair - the -major- instigator of the 2000 years or so of
Patriarchal BS was not the Romans Per Se. It was Aristotle. Along with a
number of other factors of course, Aristotle however was a male
chauvinist.

Aristotle didn't invent any of that, however. It was how he was raised; it
is what the Greek society of his time was thoroughly permeated with.

He sure as hell did! "form and substance" = 2000 of bullshit !!

Save your breath!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:34:48 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Central vs. Peripheral
Message-ID:

FEOn Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Jonnan West wrote:

FE To be fair - the -major- instigator of the 2000 years or so of
FE Patriarchal BS was not the Romans Per Se. It was Aristotle. Along with a
FE number of other factors of course, Aristotle however was a male
FE chauvinist.

FEAristotle didn't invent any of that, however. It was how he was raised; it
FEis what the Greek society of his time was thoroughly permeated with.


To be *perfectly* fair, you must remember that
Aristotle's position in Greek Society was that of a
"foreigner", with no status at all. He shared the
same political and economic abyss as women and slaves.
His rhetoric came from the perspective of a slave
dutiful and loving to his Master.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:25:22 -0800
From: leather@zephyr.net (leather)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Central vs. Peripheral
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Jonnan West wrote:

To be fair - the -major- instigator of the 2000 years or so of
Patriarchal BS was not the Romans Per Se. It was Aristotle. Along with a
number of other factors of course, Aristotle however was a male
chauvinist.

Aristotle didn't invent any of that, however. It was how he was raised; it
is what the Greek society of his time was thoroughly permeated with.


Micah... Micah... Micah...

It was not claimed that Aristotle "invented" it! Simply stated... read it
again, dear... he instigated it... he was a male chauvinist... and there
"were" other factors (like the era being permeated with it... granted) but
Socrates' (that lucious little drunk) teachings were different than what
was embraced by the male ruler(s) of the time.

Leather

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the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:53:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonnan West
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Good&Bad Will
Message-Id: <199609111753.MAA00942@indy1.indy.net
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2541

Some interesting biological points. There isn't just 1 kind of
sperm. There are actually a number of different kinds of sperm. One
kind of sperm is a blocker/killer sperm, designed to attack any sperm
that come from a different man than the one who "generated" it. This
pretty much killed the arguments that women were genetically made for
monogamy. :)

I would have to see your references on this one - Is this a fact
or a theory? While I don't know everything, I -do- follow most sciences
at least somewhat and this biological datum is completely new to me.
Brings of lots of silly thoughts though "Doctor, these 'Killer Sperm' of
yours are a perversion of Nature!" - Attack of the Killer Sperm, Now from
Grade Triple-Z Motion Pictures!
However, given the short life expectancy of a sperm cell, I can't
quite see some kind of specialized sperm cell as a useful biological
solution to the problem . . .

This fact is actually true in a number of species. Apparantly what
happens in some animal species is that the female mates with one male
just to get him to go away (or to help look after her little ones),
then mates with others who she considers to provide better genes for
her children. I wish I could remember more specfics, but I know there
was one type of bird where the female will nest with one male, then
run off and mate with some males she considers "genetically perfect."
It was suggested (I saw this in a show on human sexuality) that the
same may apply to human woman on the biological/genetic front. The
question, "Who is better to marry, a lover or a friend?" becomes much
more interesting when you think about it in the context of this
paragraph.

Another interesting point. Men can actually subconsciously control
the amount and types of sperm they produce. If they think the woman
has had sex with someone else recently, they will produce more
blocker/killer sperm (more sperm in general, actually) than if they
think the woman has been monogamous.

I think if -this- were true I would find a lot of those stupid
letters in Penthouse more believable. I refuse to go into details but I
think everyone knows what I mean -


Dee-Ann

Jonnan

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #10
***********************************************

From - Thu Sep 12 09:06:51 1996
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From: Jonnan West
Message-Id: <199609111753.MAA00942@indy1.indy.net
Subject: Re: Good&Bad Will
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:53:42 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199609102235.PAA01807@catherine.renaissoft.com from "Dee-Ann LeBlanc" at Sep 10, 96 03:35:34 pm
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Some interesting biological points. There isn't just 1 kind of
sperm. There are actually a number of different kinds of sperm. One
kind of sperm is a blocker/killer sperm, designed to attack any sperm
that come from a different man than the one who "generated" it. This
pretty much killed the arguments that women were genetically made for
monogamy. :)

I would have to see your references on this one - Is this a fact
or a theory? While I don't know everything, I -do- follow most sciences
at least somewhat and this biological datum is completely new to me.
Brings of lots of silly thoughts though "Doctor, these 'Killer Sperm' of
yours are a perversion of Nature!" - Attack of the Killer Sperm, Now from
Grade Triple-Z Motion Pictures!
However, given the short life expectancy of a sperm cell, I can't
quite see some kind of specialized sperm cell as a useful biological
solution to the problem . . .

This fact is actually true in a number of species. Apparantly what
happens in some animal species is that the female mates with one male
just to get him to go away (or to help look after her little ones),
then mates with others who she considers to provide better genes for
her children. I wish I could remember more specfics, but I know there
was one type of bird where the female will nest with one male, then
run off and mate with some males she considers "genetically perfect."
It was suggested (I saw this in a show on human sexuality) that the
same may apply to human woman on the biological/genetic front. The
question, "Who is better to marry, a lover or a friend?" becomes much
more interesting when you think about it in the context of this
paragraph.

Another interesting point. Men can actually subconsciously control
the amount and types of sperm they produce. If they think the woman
has had sex with someone else recently, they will produce more
blocker/killer sperm (more sperm in general, actually) than if they
think the woman has been monogamous.

I think if -this- were true I would find a lot of those stupid
letters in Penthouse more believable. I refuse to go into details but I
think everyone knows what I mean -


Dee-Ann

Jonnan

the subject "help".


From - Wed Sep 11 16:55:09 1996
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Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:06:57 -0700
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
Message-Id: <199609110507.WAA02111@catherine.renaissoft.com
Subject: "The Matriarchy"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <199609100300.WAA14155@indy1.indy.net from "Jonnan West" at Sep 9, 96 10:00:45 pm
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